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Are OV and JPP

CMicks3110 : 8/8/2017 9:27 am
Sack numbers depressed by playing in the NFC East.

We play some of the best tackle combinations in football and last year played some of the best o-lines in football.

Dallas has Smith and now Collins
Washington has Williams and Moses
Philly has peters and Johnson

Last year we played Green Bay twice.

My point being that these are excellent pass rushers who might just be playing excellent blockers and that's why they didn't break double digits
In sacks last year
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the best in football  
grizz299 : 8/8/2017 9:33 am : link
as a pair ...unless JJ Watt and Crowley have good years. Then we'd be the second best.

JPP also missed 6 games  
djm : 8/8/2017 9:33 am : link
Which probably costs him at least 2-3 sacks. Vernon was great all year so I don't want to make excuses but the hand injury couldn't have helped early on.
Just for discussion, here are the 2016 numbers.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/8/2017 9:34 am : link
Vernon:
Vs. NFC East
Games: 6
Sacks: 2
Vs. Others
Games: 11
Sacks: 6.5

Pierre-Paul
Vs. NFC East
Games: 3
Sacks: 1
Vs. Others
Games: 9
Sacks: 6
Teams tend to compensate  
I Love Clams Casino : 8/8/2017 9:36 am : link
for their division foes strengths.

It's primarily why out of division games can be unpredictable.

You play in a division w/the Giants? Better do something to protect your QB, or you're going to get ripped apart twice a year.
Vernon was not great all year  
Overseer : 8/8/2017 9:37 am : link
if you want to cite the hand reason as the reason, fine. But it's not accurate to call him "great all year." He was for instance dreadful - not bad, but dreadful - vs the Packers week 5.
Both will get 10+ sacks this year (i think)  
est1986 : 8/8/2017 9:38 am : link
And both are the very best DE's vs the Run.
OV was hurt early and JPP was hurt late  
Chris684 : 8/8/2017 9:40 am : link
which did not help, but this is arguably the best 2-way pair in the league.

I think JPP missed 3 NFC East games last season if I'm not mistaken.

We played Dallas @ home (Okwara game), @ Philly and @ Washington down the stretch without JPP.

As noted, there are some top tackles in this division, none better than Tyron Smith who will be a HOF lock when hangs them up and JPP has given him plenty of trouble in their one on one matchups through the years.
RE: Vernon was not great all year  
est1986 : 8/8/2017 9:41 am : link
In comment 13552470 Overseer said:
Quote:
if you want to cite the hand reason as the reason, fine. But it's not accurate to call him "great all year." He was for instance dreadful - not bad, but dreadful - vs the Packers week 5.


Minus jack rabbit who wasnt dreadful vs the packers.. Vernon made the all pro team for a reason pal.
overseer.....what are you looking at?  
George from PA : 8/8/2017 9:44 am : link
OV lead the entire NFL in hurries and total pressures.....while being dominate vs the run.

sacks are not the only measurement
RE: Vernon was not great all year  
BigBlueShock : 8/8/2017 9:44 am : link
In comment 13552470 Overseer said:
Quote:
if you want to cite the hand reason as the reason, fine. But it's not accurate to call him "great all year." He was for instance dreadful - not bad, but dreadful - vs the Packers week 5.

Tough crowd. If we are going with one or two bad games at the standard, there's not a player in the NFL who had a great season
Say what you want...8.5 sacks and stout run defense  
Chris684 : 8/8/2017 9:47 am : link
with a shattered hand for a decent chunk of the season is pretty damn good.
RE: the best in football  
allstarjim : 8/8/2017 9:53 am : link
In comment 13552462 grizz299 said:
Quote:
as a pair ...unless JJ Watt and Crowley have good years. Then we'd be the second best.


Clowney, ffs. He was only the first overall pick in the draft.
I think they were hurt by not playing Cleveland and Chicago every week  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/8/2017 9:53 am : link
Vernon and Pierre-Paul combined for 8.5 sacks in those two games. Vernon added two more the next week against Pittsburgh.

Just for perspective: Eli Manning was sacked less than the other three starting QBs in the East, despite throwing far more passes than Prescott and about the same number as Cousins and Wentz. Would it be fair to say pass-rushers in the division had their numbers curbed by having to face Ereck Flowers, Bobby Hart and company twice?
It's based on video and watching the games  
Overseer : 8/8/2017 9:55 am : link
he was not great for a good chunk of the season, especially vs Green Bay. And especially rushing the passer. The accolades were clearly carried by the 2nd half.

Likely because of the hand, granted. But we don't need to pretend he had a season he didn't.

Healthy in 2017, such a characterization ("all year") will likely be accurate.

RE: It's based on video and watching the games  
BigBlueShock : 8/8/2017 10:01 am : link
In comment 13552493 Overseer said:
Quote:
he was not great for a good chunk of the season, especially vs Green Bay. And especially rushing the passer. The accolades were clearly carried by the 2nd half.

Likely because of the hand, granted. But we don't need to pretend he had a season he didn't.

Healthy in 2017, such a characterization ("all year") will likely be accurate.

Wtf? Vernon was voted 2nd team All Pro, lol. So, who's pretending at this point?
To me, cherry picking stats is like cherry picking wins  
Chris684 : 8/8/2017 10:09 am : link
Your numbers are what they are.

Cleveland sent 2 o-lineman to the Pro Bowl last season including a guy named Joe Thomas, not chopped liver.

The pressure from our d-line basically saved both of those games against inferior competition in the middle of the season. I'm not sure why we want to take that away from them?
Vernon was absolutely not dreadful early on, that's an exagerration  
Keith : 8/8/2017 10:12 am : link
to make a point. He was solid. He was disruptive later in the season, but he was solid early on. He was never dreadful.
Didn't say he was dreadful ''early on''  
Overseer : 8/8/2017 10:18 am : link
wrote he was dreadful vs Green Bay, which he was.

I remember thinking during/after that game..."uh, $85 million for this guy?", thoughts which were duly negated once news of the injury came out.

His overall great season was overwhelmingly due to the ~2nd half of it.
We have gone in the span of a few posts..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/8/2017 10:21 am : link
from being absolutely dreadful in the Packers game to being "not great for a good chunk of the season", even though Vernon was one of our more consistent defenders, AND he played through a broken hand.

I'm not really sure what point was being refuted by saying he was absolutely dreadful in a game, as if Beckham being poor in a game should negate any of his other contributions.

Very strange angle there.
We paid OV to be disruptive and he wasn't a disruptive DE  
Keith : 8/8/2017 10:27 am : link
early in the season. I think there are a few factors as to why:

1. His injury. From the reports I read, it's amazing that he played through it.

2. New coach, new system, new personnel. There were a lot of new pieces on this defense and it took some time to gel.

All that being said, OV was very solid early in the season. He was pressuring the QB and he was stopping the run. He wasn't disruptive until the defense started to gel. Maybe he started to heal, maybe they all just clicked together, but he wasn't dreadful or even not good for the first half. It's BS to suggest otherwise.

Why are we even judging him on one game in week 5 anyway? Ok, so you saw that he had a bad game, kudos to you coach.
Beckham drags his whole team down  
Rocky369 : 8/8/2017 10:28 am : link
knew we could squeeze a OBJ in here somewhere. I heard that Beckham punching the wall in Green Bay led to OV's shattered hand and his subpar performance last year.
Last point....  
Keith : 8/8/2017 10:28 am : link
The Giants defense is built to stop the run. We ask our dline to focus on the run first, second and third. OV was awesome at that, as well as JPP. It's how our defense is built.
Also, according to PFF  
Chris684 : 8/8/2017 10:29 am : link
The Packers OL ranked 8th in the league ahead of Dallas at number 9.

Bakhtiari and Bulaga are an excellent pair of tackles. Just putting it all out there.

If only the WR group could take such abuse for the no show against the broken down Packer secondary.
RE: We have gone in the span of a few posts..  
Overseer : 8/8/2017 10:35 am : link
In comment 13552510 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
from being absolutely dreadful in the Packers game to being "not great for a good chunk of the season", even though Vernon was one of our more consistent defenders, AND he played through a broken hand.

I'm not really sure what point was being refuted by saying he was absolutely dreadful in a game, as if Beckham being poor in a game should negate any of his other contributions.

Very strange angle there.

Thank you for reminding me of the relevance of the injury (with capital AND and all), which I referenced in all 3 of my posts on this thread.

Didn't say he was a bad player. Didn't say he was dogging it at any point.

Merely contested the contention that he was "great all year." He wasn't. The fact that his 2nd half play stood out in such a pronounced manner should underscore this.
Semantics.  
Keith : 8/8/2017 10:40 am : link
He was very good early and excellent later in the season. He was a premier run stopper all season long from beginning to end. He got some pressures early, but he got to the QB as the season wore on. Suggesting that he wasn't great because of one game is off base.
It seems that..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/8/2017 10:41 am : link
even this is off-base though.

Quote:
Merely contested the contention that he was "great all year." He wasn't. The fact that his 2nd half play stood out in such a pronounced manner should underscore this.


Keith pointed out some excellent points why, but even when the DL wasn't getting pressures and sacks, they were containing the run, and as a unit really only struggled vs. Minny and GB.

Using the standard that an All-Pro wasn't great "all year" based on a small set where he didn't stand out on the stat sheet seems like something that could be said about any All-Pro player.

Like I said above - strange angle to take. Both in trying to refute that Vernon was great last year and the continued view that he was only propped up by his second half.

But noticing the capitalization was good. I guess my emphasis was noted....
Pressures  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 10:59 am : link
I am skeptical of the use of pressures to compliment JPP's and Vernon's performance in 2016. As far as I can tell after having asked the question here and searching for it myself, there is no good definition for what constitutes a pressure.

It also is not a statistic I'd ever heard brought up here until last year, when it became the only number that could be provided to support the notion that JPP and Vernon were the elite players their contracts say they are.

I'll point to Big Blue Blogger's post above...they were certainly dominant against Cleveland and Chicago.
Why do people look at Chicago  
Keith : 8/8/2017 11:06 am : link
as a team that de's accumulate against? Chicago was near the bottom of the league in sacks given up.
Indeed, it was especially those early NFC North games  
Overseer : 8/8/2017 11:09 am : link
It wasn’t just the stat sheet Fatman. He was substantially better toward the 2nd half of the season. He came on vs the Rams and Eagles, then was the OV we want to see moving forward starting vs Cincinnati.

Rather than dig through a dozen clips, I’ll cite Eric’s reviews:

Quote:

VIKINGS

This is not what the Giants expected. With both primary offensive tackles out of the game, defensive ends Jason Pierre-Paul and Olivier Vernon were non-factors in a game where the Giants expected and needed them to make a difference.

Quote:

PACKERS

The Giants simply are not getting their money’s worth from Jason Pierre-Paul and Olivier Vernon. The Giants had no sacks and only three QB hits – one by Vernon, one by Damon Harrison, and one by Johnathan Hankins. This is the third time in five games where the Giants don’t have a sack. Indeed, there were more than a few plays where Rodgers had all the time in the world to throw. It was embarrassing.

Quote:

RAVENS

The Giants did generate more heat on the quarterback with week. Johnathan Hankins had one sack and Jason Pierre-Paul and Romeo Okwara did register hits on the quarterback. But it was nowhere nearly enough. Olivier Vernon (2 tackles) was very quiet.

Quote:

RAMS PREVIEW

Game plan is simple. Stop Gurley. Make the Rams one dimensional and get after Keenum – a journeyman quarterback coming off a strong game but who someone the Giants should be able to rattle if they can pressure on him. It’s well past time for Jason Pierre-Paul and Olivier Vernon to have a breakout game.


Again, I did not write he wasn’t “great last year.” He was, overall. I contested the description: “Vernon was great all year”.

If Lebron shoots 2/16 in the first half, then 18/20 in the 2nd, he & Lue are happy at the end of the 4th (assuming the Cavs won), but it’s simply not accurate to say James was “great all game.”

RE: the best in football  
Gatorade Dunk : 8/8/2017 11:09 am : link
In comment 13552462 grizz299 said:
Quote:
as a pair ...unless JJ Watt and Crowley have good years. Then we'd be the second best.

Who is Crowley?

I seriously think you might not even watch football.
Terps I've seen you point to the "competition" several times  
Chris684 : 8/8/2017 11:10 am : link
when this discussion has come up. I'm kind of surprised you would feel this way.

Football is a team sport. Just because a team sucks, doesnt mean all of their individual units suck. As I stated above, Cleveland's o-line boasts one of the top tackles in the league, plus another pro bowler. Is Joe Thomas an "easy" individual matchup because his team sucks (mainly because they are in QB hell)?

You can point to Cleveland and Chicago all you want, but the pass rush put those games on ice for the rest of the team that apparently wasnt doing much to decide the outcome in any other phase of the game.

OV's price tag turns people off, I get it. But he put up a solid season with a shattered hand.

As for JPP, I've defended him for a couple of years against opinions that, quite frankly, lead me to question what people are watching at times.
RE: Why do people look at Chicago  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 11:11 am : link
In comment 13552572 Keith said:
Quote:
as a team that de's accumulate against? Chicago was near the bottom of the league in sacks given up.


That's because Jay Cutler started only 5 games. In the 5 games he played he was sacked 17 times. The Bears conceded only 11 sacks in the other 11 games.

Cutler is prone to high sack numbers; that's been no secret for years.
Cutler  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 11:14 am : link
Had Cutler played all 16 games and been sacked at the same rate, Chicago would have been second worst in the NFL with 54 sacks conceded.

Chris  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 11:28 am : link
I'm not knocking them because they did well against two poor teams. I'm pointing out that in the 9 games prior to the Chicago game they combined for 4.5 sacks. And beyond that, I can recall vast stretches of those first 9 games where the team simply could not generate a conventional pass rush. I also remember the best defensive football being played after JPP's injury. Correlation is not necessarily causation, but I think the argument could be made that the defense wasn't playing great football because of JPP.

Someone above posted that he expects double digit sack seasons each for JPP and Vernon. It's a strange prediction given that JPP has achieved that twice in seven seasons, and Vernon has done it once in five.
Bottom line is the Giants need better from them  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 11:34 am : link
It'd be dangerous to assume the secondary will perform at the same exceptional level as 2016, and the playoff game showed how one injury can devastate that entire side of the ball.

The Giants spend more money than any team in the NFL at the defensive end position. In 2017 I'll be hoping for an output befitting the investment, and not a performance that needs to be rationalized with the nebulous "pressures" statistic.
False news!  
Keith : 8/8/2017 11:37 am : link
We did not play our best defensive football after JPP got hurt. That's you trying to create a narrative that just isn't true. We started playing our best football in the weeks leading up to that. You've been trying real hard to knock JPP which isn't surprising since you've been wrong about him since his injury. You hate being wrong so much that you take every opp to try and knock JPP down just so you don't look like an idiot(it's not working) for your behavior after the incident.

You were wrong and continue to be wrong about JPP. He's a leader, he's changed the way he approaches the game, he works hard, he's a difference maker and he has proven to be almost as effective despite his injury. YOU WERE WRONG, let it go.
With Terps  
BigBlueShock : 8/8/2017 11:39 am : link
It's ALL about the money. He's obsessed and thinks the Giants should have 53 vet minimum players. If they make a cent over the minimum, they've got to go. Save that money for someone that he would never sign, because it would cost too much money!
Do the Giants..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/8/2017 11:40 am : link
really need "better from them"??

They both played really well last year, and were two-way players, excelling against both the pass and the run.

I'm guessing if you hadn't dug your heels in on the disdain for paying the defensive players as much as they got, that this wouldn't be the take.

Vernon was one of the best DE's in football last year, and that isn't just a reflection of stats or hurries - it is a reflection on how well he contained the run and was able to rush the passer too. JPP had a similar impact.

Last year when somebody thought JPP would get at least 15 sacks, I said he'll struggle to get double-digits, and he always will, IMO. But his worth is more than sack totals, and this is coming from a guy who thought JPP was a complete moron for blowing off his hand, and I'd have had no qualms with them letting him go. That doesn't negate the fact he played really well.

In fact, my opinion has never caused a guy to play better or worse, except in my own eyes.....
The Giants defense was one of, if not the best,  
Keith : 8/8/2017 11:43 am : link
run defense in the NFL. The DE's are a major reason why and it's money well spent. Casual fans look at sacks and try to judge performance, but fans that have a clue know that there is much more that goes into it. We ask our DE's to stop the run first and they do. They are both well rounded ends who play 99% of the snaps and succeed often. Anyone complaining about overpaying our ends when we have an elite run defense and 2 DE's in the upper echeclon of the league in pressures/hurries while being in the top third in sacks is fooling themselves.
FMIC  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 11:47 am : link
Had Vernon and JPP been dominant last year I would happily admit to having been wrong. I've always admitted when I've been wrong on this board...it's happened plenty.

But on this one, I'm not, or at least I haven't been yet. I hope to be completely wrong in 2017. If I am I'll admit it to you and even to the two mouthbreathers knocking me here.
You're a fool  
Keith : 8/8/2017 11:50 am : link
if you can't see how good our ends were last year. One of the best run defenses in football despite not having good LB's. OH boy, but they were only 15th in sacks so they stink!
When you have..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/8/2017 11:54 am : link
a Top 5 unit and the bookend DE's were a large reason for that success, to call them dominant or very good is really semantics.

If you think they need to be causing several turnovers or getting a few key sacks every game to be dominant, then they'll never meet that standard. I'd be fine with them controlling the line from outside rushes and getting pressures and sacks to force teams to punt. And that's ignoring the distinct possibility there were times Spags dialed tehem back because the secondary was shutting teams down.

We've seen how losing DL guys in the past had a trickle down to the secondary and how losing DB's had a similar impact on the DL. But IMO, the reason the giants D was so successful is because they had Collins and Jackrabbit in the back and OV and JPP up front.

I really don't know what more you are looking for from a dominant standpoint unless you're just wanting some highlight reel plays or are expecting the very small liklihood they are going to cause multiple fumbles and take them to the house.
I really don't know why people value your opinion at all,  
Keith : 8/8/2017 11:55 am : link
you clearly have no clue what you are watching...

RE: Terps how do you feel about JJ Watt?
Go Terps : 2/22/2017 7:02 pm : link


I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
Keith  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 11:55 am : link
This fool just made you look stupid because you are too dim to look up Jay Cutler's sack statistics.

I'm not surprised that you're the type of person to use an expression like "False news". Fucking moron.
LOL-fool  
Keith : 8/8/2017 11:56 am : link
RE: Terps how do you feel about JJ Watt?
Go Terps : 2/22/2017 7:02 pm : link


I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
FMIC  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 11:59 am : link
As Giants fans we've had the good fortune in our very recent history of seeing a dominant pass rush. We know what it looks like.

I'll concede your point that it's possible that Spags dialed them back because of the quality in the secondary.
I don't get why you two are so resistant  
Overseer : 8/8/2017 12:01 pm : link
to recognizing that OV noticeably struggled in the first ~half of last season. It's not some wildly original contention (Eric, as demonstrated, noted it multiple times in his early 2016 reviews) nor is it some huge slam upon a dynamic 2-way player. He picked it up enormously circa Cincinnati.

Keith starting to get pretty nasty so Imma duck out. Enjoy your Tuesdays.

GT..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/8/2017 12:04 pm : link
we all have blind spots. I can't ignore some of the idiots around here and waste time pointing out something they are too dim to ever see.

You know I'd never go after you like I do the morons because there's too many other times you've posted really good stuff - but you really are biased when it comes to JPP and the money we spent from the defensive guys.

Embrace them!! I look at it this way - I've never seen another team spend a boatload in FA and turn a unit around like the Giants did. Yes, it was $200M, but at least it was spent wisely. They bought an Arab steed that took a Triple Crown race, not a Ferrari that blew an engine on the first lap.

Take the hate for JPP and keep it stashed up for Klinsmann, because you know he'll come back somewhere:)
Yea he struggled early because  
Chris684 : 8/8/2017 12:11 pm : link
his hand was shattered.

Do you think it's easy to shed blocks and generate a pass rush with the use of one hand?
FMIC  
Go Terps : 8/8/2017 12:14 pm : link
I don't think I have a blind spot here. I give JPP enormous credit for coming back from the fireworks accident, and I've credited Vernon many times for his toughness. They're both good players...that's beyond dispute.

I admit (and already have many times) to having been dead wrong about Janoris Jenkins...he was phenomenal and worth every penny. The Snacks signing I liked from day one. I'm not averse to spending big on big players.

But if we're paying big money I expect a big return. My lasting memory of the 2016 season for our defensive ends is Al Michaels and Cris Collinsworth in disbelief as Aaron Rodgers sat in the pocket for 5, 6, 7 seconds.

I have no choice but to embrace JPP and Vernon...they're cornerstone players. I rooted for them last year and will this year. I think an objective view is that they didn't deliver on the cost in year one.
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