Reddit post: Eli and O-line breakdown

He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt.

In comment 13595862 BlueHurricane said:

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He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt.

All QBs do. Look at Brady last week, or a number of others. No time means no options to pick the right receiver.

when they have no faith in their OL. It happens when you have to spend as much time looking for pass rushers as you do looking for your receivers.

In comment 13595865 PatersonPlank said:

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In comment 13595862 BlueHurricane said: Quote: He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt. All QBs do. Look at Brady last week, or a number of others. No time means no options to pick the right receiver.

Brady had all the time in the world to throw on several dropbacks last week. I can't remember Eli having anything like that.

In comment 13595862 BlueHurricane said:

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He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt.

I don't agree with this - the OL was brutal during the regular season in 2011 and Eli had his best season. I don't think the OL in 14/15 was good, either.

the post I linked is worth reading and considering on its own.

Or it looks that way. He's not really throwing it all that well and didn't last year either.

2nd and goal – Flowers misses, Jerry Misses, Richburg doesn’t try to block anyone and Hart misses. This is 100% on the line and this is 100% why Eli has zero chill in the pocket. Pugh decided to block, soooo….he’ll probably sign somewhere else next year.

My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning

He needs to step his game up. He had plenty of time on many occasions as the reddit poster showed, yet he is still not seeing the field well, he is looking at his first reads only and then panicking is that doesn't work out. He is also making bad throws. I'm worried for sure, this can't go on much longer, Eli is slowly turning into David Carr.

The other huge problem the poster mentioned which was what I noticed all game is the play calling, its still far to conservative and predictable. They need to design more plays down the field, instead of check down dink and dunks. Macadoo needs to show more as the playcaller or he will be on the hot seat too if he can't turn this offense around.

but the blocking and run game support hasn't allowed him to get into rhythm for quite a while now.

I like him at 5 steps(not 3), but no way can they do that with the blocking the way it is. He get's time for one read or a safety dump off in this system. He's got the brains to go through 3 reads, but not the time. They're gonna end up wasting a 3rd of his career if they don't get this corrected.

This is going into the 6th year(if you include the last Super Bowl season) of O-line issues and sub par play form the unit and it has seemingly gotten worse each season.

That's depressing.

The offense was a shit show.

has affected Eli significantly resulting in a lot of bad decisions and an anemic offense. If it doesn't change and soon this could be a very frustrating season. I would pay money to see Jones in for Jerry next week but this coach seems to be very stubborn, so far it hasn't paid off for the offense.

This past weekend? And he is a very mobile guy.

Waiting for covered receivers to get some separation? Just saying....

Plays particularly well when the OL plays poorly

In comment 13595862 BlueHurricane said:

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He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt.

So is Dak Prescott and Marcus Mariotta, so I don't think that says anything about Eli's play.

Eli seemed to have two players open beyond the sticks when he throws -- but makes that awful throw instead. He was not good, period, and it's not all on the OL (but Jerry sucks, that's as much of a fact as death and taxes).

The picture of four blockers on two Cowboys when two other Cowboys are unblocked is especially brutal. Any LB will look great when unblocked.

In comment 13595929 gmenatlarge said:

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has affected Eli significantly resulting in a lot of bad decisions and an anemic offense. If it doesn't change and soon this could be a very frustrating season. I would pay money to see Jones in for Jerry next week but this coach seems to be very stubborn, so far it hasn't paid off for the offense.

It's been more than 3 years.

At this point, PTSD has made Eli as much a part of the problem as the line itself.


OK, that was game 1. RUSTY. Never a shocker, but certainly very disappointing.

Beckham alone isn't going to fix this mess. I want to believe, but am having a really hard time seeing where CONSISTENCY in the offense will ever materialize. I'm tired of every first down feeling like a fucking miracle.

I think that's an appropriate assessment. He reminds me of Dave Carr with Houston when he was getting hammered.

In comment 13595977 Jerz44 said:

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I think that's an appropriate assessment. He reminds me of Dave Carr with Houston when he was getting hammered.

I'm beginning to think that as well. Eli is jittery because he doesn't trust his OL. The repeated pummelings are adding up, and contributing to his inconsistency.

He is too concerned with protecting the ball. He wants to avoid a strip sack or tipped ball for an INT. He also doesn't want to lose yards on a sack. Also, God willing, he wants to avoid injury and prolong his career. He's being smart.

You guys make Eli sound like a pussy.

The 2011 Eli that stood in there and took vicious hits to deliver the ball against San Fran is gone. He looks to be playing now to not get hurt and collect his money. Other than the Washington hit in game 3 last year I can't remember any big hits he's taken. He could possibly end up being the worst contract in the league this year

Eli is not throwing the ball on schedule or in rhythm. That is going to continue if opponents continue to show zero respect for our offensive line. They are daring us to beat 4 defensive linemen with 5 offensive linemen, and we can't do it.

here's the summary:

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My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning and that's a huge problem. It looks like, at times, he's playing to not get hurt. And that's not going to be enough for us. Better QBs overcome worse lines. Seattle has a way worse line than we do but unfortunately Eli accentuates the problems with this line. It looks to me that we're dealing with a shell shocked version of the Eli we all love. He's half Eli and half David Carr. He needs to overcome that or it's going to be a really long year. John Jerry has gone from our 2nd best lineman to our worst. With a fucking bullet. So that means that Hart and Flowers have actually improved, while Jerry has regressed. He should be replaced. The play calling isn't great. Far too often we're not even running routes past the sticks. At a certain point I can't figure out if we're trying to protect Eli from the line or protect Eli from Eli. He doesn't seem willing to move beyond his first read and his first read is often a check down. I'm willing to give the play calling a break until OBJ is back though. This game was on Eli. There will absolutely be games on the Line, this wasn't one of them.

I agree with this 100%.

Jerry wasn't that bad last year - not great, not awful - but he was horrendous all preseason and on Sunday night. He needs the bench, pronto.

Eli isn't being rushed on every play, but he might as well be. He's not seeing the field, and not firing on all cylinders when given time. At this point, he's more liability than solution, unfortunately.

Playcalling is definitely broken - McAdoo needs to give it up, the sooner the better. If Sullivan is as bad or worse, fine. Hopefully that's not the case.

a weaker spot or two at the oline and manage through it. We saw this when the Snee, Kmac, O'Hara, Diehl, ect. guys started to decline and finish up their careers. There was at least some consistency to where the pressure was most likely to come from.

The QB can give a quick glance (no doing this with 5 guys, you get one at most). The QB favors a certain side and slides a little to that side in the pocket. You hvae a better idea where to provide the extra protection with your TE or one of your backs. The group mentioned above, it was usually towards Diehl.

This current group, it's a fucking crap shoot. There is no consistency to the inconsistency with this bunch. It could be almost any one of them that's gonna hang you out to dry.

was that gunslinger mentality. When everything was collapsing around him, he'd be cool and dare to be great. Now sometimes it would blow up with a bad interception, but sometimes he'd pull a rabbit out of his hat, eg Tyree, Manningham, etc. The problem is he has lost that bravado, and all we are left with is a jumpy QB, making nothing but very safe throws, who still throws the occasionally stupid INT. Not a great combo.

to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me.

There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen.

I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year.

Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field.

He's not seeing it after one game this year.

But it will get better...............

In comment 13596027 SHO'NUFF said:

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He is too concerned with protecting the ball. He wants to avoid a strip sack or tipped ball for an INT. He also doesn't want to lose yards on a sack. Also, God willing, he wants to avoid injury and prolong his career. He's being smart. You guys make Eli sound like a pussy.

Agreed. He's being cautious because he has to be at this point...otherwise he's going to get hit/fumble or force balls to receivers who aren't open yet. Hence the check downs......despite being a gunslinger, there is a point where he has to not just give the ball away multiple times a game, or even half.

In comment 13596061 BillKo said:

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to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me. There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen. I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year. Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field. He's not seeing it after one game this year. But it will get better...............

That was my point with my above post. Who on here wouldn't sign up for that 2011 line? They got better in the playoffs sure, but that really was the beginning of this downward trend in the oline. But my point was, there was still consistency to their warts and this current group doesn't even have that.

And to a lesser extent Jerry and Hart, have ruined what was left of Eli's career. The guy has not had a good OL in over SEVEN years! Think about that for a second. Eli has not had trust in his OL to block for him solidly for that long, and we are clearly seeing the after effects of all of the beatings.

Eli is smart, so he hasnt taken too many bad hits, but that has led to him being jumpy and his internal clock is way off. I would consider myself one of the bigger Eli fans, but I am starting to get worried that we may never see the real Eli again.

In comment 13596071 Motley Two said:

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In comment 13596061 BillKo said: Quote: to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me. There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen. I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year. Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field. He's not seeing it after one game this year. But it will get better............... That was my point with my above post. Who on here wouldn't sign up for that 2011 line? They got better in the playoffs sure, but that really was the beginning of this downward trend in the oline. But my point was, there was still consistency to their warts and this current group doesn't even have that.

Exactly. You don't think Eli trusted Kareem McKenzie? The guy was a rock. The interior was pretty good too, allowing Eli to step up when Diehl would give up pressure.

And Eli knew, despite DD being a pretty darn good player, that that was the weak link.

This 2017 line, right now, can have a break down anywhere and that's a tough proposition for a QB.

In comment 13596076 BillKo said:

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In comment 13596071 Motley Two said: Quote: In comment 13596061 BillKo said: Quote: to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me. There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen. I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year. Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field. He's not seeing it after one game this year. But it will get better............... That was my point with my above post. Who on here wouldn't sign up for that 2011 line? They got better in the playoffs sure, but that really was the beginning of this downward trend in the oline. But my point was, there was still consistency to their warts and this current group doesn't even have that. Exactly. You don't think Eli trusted Kareem McKenzie? The guy was a rock. The interior was pretty good too, allowing Eli to step up when Diehl would give up pressure. And Eli knew, despite DD being a pretty darn good player, that that was the weak link. This 2017 line, right now, can have a break down anywhere and that's a tough proposition for a QB.

Yep, I have no idea what he's supposed to do. Maybe pray?

In comment 13596027 SHO'NUFF said:

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He is too concerned with protecting the ball. He wants to avoid a strip sack or tipped ball for an INT. He also doesn't want to lose yards on a sack. Also, God willing, he wants to avoid injury and prolong his career. He's being smart. You guys make Eli sound like a pussy.

I agree with you. Eli being scared isn't the problem IMHO. And I'm certainly not afraid to critisize him for sure. I hate all his interceptions and fumbles and bad decisions every year but I never question his balls that's for sure. At times I think he should take off with the ball more but he looks for someone downfield too often when it isn't there but it isn't in my view because he's scared.

back in 07, calling him skittish?

I don't think it's just a trust thing - maybe Eli has regressed a bit to the QB he was earlier in his career.

and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now.

In comment 13595931 Giant John said:

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This past weekend? And he is a very mobile guy.

he was running for his life. Hawks made the Pack d look like the 85 Bears

In comment 13596089 NorwoodWideRight said:

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and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now.

He's playing behind a shit line would be a cop-out if he was not... But he is playing behind a shit line, to say it's all on him is ridiculous.. you can count on one hand the number of clean pockets he had on sunday, doesn't mean he played well, but damn, that line was embarassing

In comment 13596089 NorwoodWideRight said:

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and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now.

I haven't seen many free passes, just some cause & effect exercises. Tom Brady and his 16 completions Thursday night looked pretty jittery too.

In comment 13596098 JayinVT said:

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In comment 13596089 NorwoodWideRight said: Quote: and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now. He's playing behind a shit line would be a cop-out if he was not... But he is playing behind a shit line, to say it's all on him is ridiculous.. you can count on one hand the number of clean pockets he had on sunday, doesn't mean he played well, but damn, that line was embarassing

If the pocket collapses and he throws it in the dirt or misses a receiver, I expect him to be able to step up and make a throw on the following play when he has time. He has shown consistently (over the course of numerous games going back to last season) that his head is on a swivel and he's hearing footsteps, which is causing him to dump off or have errant throws. That's on Eli.

In comment 13596104 NorwoodWideRight said:

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In comment 13596098 JayinVT said: Quote: In comment 13596089 NorwoodWideRight said: Quote: and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now. He's playing behind a shit line would be a cop-out if he was not... But he is playing behind a shit line, to say it's all on him is ridiculous.. you can count on one hand the number of clean pockets he had on sunday, doesn't mean he played well, but damn, that line was embarassing If the pocket collapses and he throws it in the dirt or misses a receiver, I expect him to be able to step up and make a throw on the following play when he has time. He has shown consistently (over the course of numerous games going back to last season) that his head is on a swivel and he's hearing footsteps, which is causing him to dump off or have errant throws. That's on Eli.

Sure and every game he plays should look like the NFCCG vs. San Fran. Why can't he just do that some more?

He was saving Paul Perkins's ass from getting lit. There was nothing to be gained even if Perkins caught it.

One, the 2011 was garbage running the ball for most of the season. That line was competent at pass protection though. There are some great highlight videos I have seen on YouTube where Eli is making crazy throws, like the comeback in Dallas (JPP fg block game) and Eli is standing in the pocket surveying the field and delivering the ball like a boss. Eli has nothing like that protection today. This line is a fucking travesty.

Two, any QB will be worse when they have no time to survey, set and throw. Also, no QB likes to get hit. Take Brady in this past Super Bowl. Early on the Falcons were getting after it with jailbreak pressure and Brady looked like shit. Same game, once the Pats hit a rhythm and got some protection going he was lights fucking out.

People claim,oh if Eli could scramble, but that does not solve the problem at all. Take Dak, on the Giants with ZERO run game and being put in constant long down and distance I would love to see how he performs. Sure he is immense and can scramble, but eventually he will get rocked on run and injured, or he will be under duress and chuck it up. You can not solve a shit o line by having a scrambling QB. When the Seahawks won with Wilson they had a great D and a big time power run game. Sure the mobile QB may mitigate some of the issues, but if you have a bad o line that can not pass or run block, you are fucked.

The Giants have no running game. No way to pound and wear down the opposing front. This means poor down and distance, this means all pass rushers can pin back amd go after Eli, this means NO respect for Play action and this means no chance of running the ball for a TD in the red zone which hurts production there. These are all old problems that have yet to be solved. Sure, Eli could be better, but this o line is a joke.

go figure....

Its taken its toll . You never know who is gonna break down
and it's affecting him in his timing and mechanics basically
in his head and as I think it was Duggan saying that the Giants had no answer to the zone they were playing not to mention not even remotely worried about the run game
all begins and ends with protection ,
When you get clobbered on the 2nd play of the game it's the SOS for Eli and he goes into protect mode himself and the ball . If were gonna be stuck with this shit show all year
there better be optimal effort as it stands now the Front Office blew it .

Among the best leaders this franchise has had.

But the continued rationalizations for his poor play is absurd. Yes, every QB has poor games, and yes, the OL play impact the offense's ability to move the ball. The problem is we're paying the guy an avg of $21M per year because he's elite. Among the best at his position. Not because the owners are generous, but because he's the leader of the offense. He's supposed to be the best player on the field and the guy who makes those around him better. He's charged with managing the ebbs and flows of the game, to mitigate risk and and take calculated shots. I don't think he's done that well for at least 3 years.

He's always had a bit Jekyl/Hyde gunslinger to him. People here used to kill Brett Farve for that same style. A couple of brilliant throws followed by a rollout left, left-handed, underhanded toss into three defenders. Or slipping the pocket for a 10 yd gain only to fall down awkwardly and create a fumble without being touched. He's had some brutal seasons and has led the league in picks twice.

That said, he's also a two time SB MVP/champion and is paid as much for past production as what he is now. I get it. Well deserved. Problem is, he's taking up a significant portion of the fixed cap on the downside of his career. This limits management's ability to improve other areas of the team. The OL, for instance.

Parting ways with a legend is seldom neat as these guys always think they've got enough in the tank to keep going. Particulary guys who play that premium position. Ultimately, there comes a point where the franchise needs to reassess the benefit of paying a guy for past performance and look ahead. Some might say Webb is a sign of that. I personally don't think he's the guy, but some here seem to be excited.

I was cautious on resigning Eli to his last deal. I wouldn't have given him his current deal coming off several consecutive underwhelming seasons.

Saying so isn't blasphemous. Doesn't make us bad fans or the Giants a disloyal organization. The 9ers traded Joe Montana. The Colts moved on from Unitas and Manning. The Pack moved on from Favre. The Rams moved on from Warner. Orr, Mays, Rice, Aaron, etc.

It's time to move on.

Eli's had long stretches of his career where he's played poorly before. The back half of 2012 and all of 2013, with the exception of a few games, was pretty bad. His age certainly raises questions. But I remain optimistic that he can get back to what he was in 2014/2015.

I think his arm strength is still fine, but I think the lack of protection he has had over the past 3-4 years has caused him to hear footsteps. I think that is a really difficult thing to get over.

In comment 13596276 Modus Operandi said:

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Among the best leaders this franchise has had. But the continued rationalizations for his poor play is absurd. Yes, every QB has poor games, and yes, the OL play impact the offense's ability to move the ball. The problem is we're paying the guy an avg of $21M per year because he's elite. Among the best at his position. Not because the owners are generous, but because he's the leader of the offense. He's supposed to be the best player on the field and the guy who makes those around him better. He's charged with managing the ebbs and flows of the game, to mitigate risk and and take calculated shots. I don't think he's done that well for at least 3 years. He's always had a bit Jekyl/Hyde gunslinger to him. People here used to kill Brett Farve for that same style. A couple of brilliant throws followed by a rollout left, left-handed, underhanded toss into three defenders. Or slipping the pocket for a 10 yd gain only to fall down awkwardly and create a fumble without being touched. He's had some brutal seasons and has led the league in picks twice. That said, he's also a two time SB MVP/champion and is paid as much for past production as what he is now. I get it. Well deserved. Problem is, he's taking up a significant portion of the fixed cap on the downside of his career. This limits management's ability to improve other areas of the team. The OL, for instance. Parting ways with a legend is seldom neat as these guys always think they've got enough in the tank to keep going. Particulary guys who play that premium position. Ultimately, there comes a point where the franchise needs to reassess the benefit of paying a guy for past performance and look ahead. Some might say Webb is a sign of that. I personally don't think he's the guy, but some here seem to be excited. I was cautious on resigning Eli to his last deal. I wouldn't have given him his current deal coming off several consecutive underwhelming seasons. Saying so isn't blasphemous. Doesn't make us bad fans or the Giants a disloyal organization. The 9ers traded Joe Montana. The Colts moved on from Unitas and Manning. The Pack moved on from Favre. The Rams moved on from Warner. Orr, Mays, Rice, Aaron, etc. It's time to move on.

I would like to see how this season plays out before cutting Eli. Also, if the Giants made a change at QB with this team as currently constituted things would be better?

I guess you free cap room, but if the team is fortunate to get a franchise QB it will be time to pay that guy.

To me, it should be easier to strengthen the o line or find a coach / GM who can get a power run game.

In comment 13596282 BrettNYG10 said:

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Eli's had long stretches of his career where he's played poorly before. The back half of 2012 and all of 2013, with the exception of a few games, was pretty bad. His age certainly raises questions. But I remain optimistic that he can get back to what he was in 2014/2015.

Among his two biggest challenges the last few years has been poor decision making and accuracy.

You can mitigate the decision making by limiting the scheme to what we're running now. But the WCO demands a QB be accurate on dumps, hooks, slants and screens. This has never been his strength and I'm skeptical that at his advanced age he's suddenly going to excel in this type of game.

That's what really puzzles me. The offense doesn't suit the QB. The other personnel doesn't suit the offense. So what's the plan here and is this the best we could come up with in the time Mcadoo has been here?

Comparing whether Jones or Fluker would be a better answer to Jerry at RG.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NYGiants/comments/6znhlp/film_study_jones_vs_fluker_4_play_series_in/ - ( New Window )

In comment 13596299 Modus Operandi said:

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In comment 13596282 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Eli's had long stretches of his career where he's played poorly before. The back half of 2012 and all of 2013, with the exception of a few games, was pretty bad. His age certainly raises questions. But I remain optimistic that he can get back to what he was in 2014/2015. Among his two biggest challenges the last few years has been poor decision making and accuracy. You can mitigate the decision making by limiting the scheme to what we're running now. But the WCO demands a QB be accurate on dumps, hooks, slants and screens. This has never been his strength and I'm skeptical that at his advanced age he's suddenly going to excel in this type of game. That's what really puzzles me. The offense doesn't suit the QB. The other personnel doesn't suit the offense. So what's the plan here and is this the best we could come up with in the time Mcadoo has been here?

All good points. I'll admit, I don't think I can think clearly on Eli.

I think we have the weapons to have a good offense. I also think the OL, which is bad, isn't so bad that we can't at least be average. I do blame Eli quite a bit for the offense failing last year and in game one - I remain hopeful because I thought he looked great against GB. And he has an inherent streakiness to him as well.

had time but was jittery and certainly not composed like you would expect from a vet. Maybe his nerves aren't as good as they use to be

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Exactly. You don't think Eli trusted Kareem McKenzie? The guy was a rock.

Hummm, Kareem is only 38. Do you think...?

Bradford was getting hit and had guys in his face but was locked in and putting the ball into the WR hands deep like handing it off. I have to admit, for that night at least, I was jealous.

Eli has so-so accuracy for an NFL QB, but his duck and survive another play mentality, combined with his poor agility makes him rush a lot of throws. Add no run game and the guy needs a stud OL. Everyone but JR seems to get that....

I saw Dalvin Cook run 22 times for 127 yards. Even taking away his longest run of 33 yards, he still rushed for 4.6 ypc.

It's a lot easier to play QB when defenses have to respect the run.

Take away Perkins's longest run (3 yards) and he was 6 carries for 13 yards. Take away Darkwa's longest run (12 yards) and he had 2 carries for 2 yards.

The Giants couldn't run the ball, they couldn't pass protect against minimal Dallas rushers. It has been the same thing nearly every year for 7 years. Making matters worse, Beckham was out.

Put Dan Marino in this offense behind this line with this play-calling and predictability, and people would call for his backup too.

In comment 13596061 BillKo said:

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to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me. There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen. I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year. Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field. He's not seeing it after one game this year. But it will get better...............

Correct. Their pass blocking was not that bad, it was their run blocking that sucked.

the author of that article seems to think Eli is locking in on the first read. How much of that do you think is by design since this offense is predicated on getting the ball out quickly?

in 2011.

In comment 13595887 PatersonPlank said:

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2nd and goal – Flowers misses, Jerry Misses, Richburg doesn’t try to block anyone and Hart misses. This is 100% on the line and this is 100% why Eli has zero chill in the pocket. Pugh decided to block, soooo….he’ll probably sign somewhere else next year. My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning

Dude, that was ONE play. Here's another, 3rd and 4 and Shepard is crossing in front of the first down marker with Lee covering him tight. One second later Shepard is past Lee, but Eli throws it early and almost over his head. Shepard leaps to make the difficult catch (which should have been easy), but Lee hits him hard, and we punt. Protection was there was fine, bad decision, bad pass.

Another play, Marshall all alone in the flat, Eli flushed out of the pocket, and panics. He does not lob the pass in front of the stationary Marshall, he zips it...you either zip it to him or lead him with touch. Good decision, bad pass.

Another play, Marshall finds a soft spot in the zone and while crossing the field Eli throws 3 yards behind him and over his head. Marshall stands there in dis-belief.

Eli had a bad game. Eli himself would say that. So don't trot one play out there and act like another person's valid perspective makes you laugh.

In comment 13596452 PaulBlakeTSU said:

Quote:

I saw Dalvin Cook run 22 times for 127 yards. Even taking away his longest run of 33 yards, he still rushed for 4.6 ypc. It's a lot easier to play QB when defenses have to respect the run. Take away Perkins's longest run (3 yards) and he was 6 carries for 13 yards. Take away Darkwa's longest run (12 yards) and he had 2 carries for 2 yards. The Giants couldn't run the ball, they couldn't pass protect against minimal Dallas rushers. It has been the same thing nearly every year for 7 years. Making matters worse, Beckham was out. Put Dan Marino in this offense behind this line with this play-calling and predictability, and people would call for his backup too.

Yup

Maybe, Eli is done, but I am not so sure yet. The Giants opposition must giggle in the film room preparing for the rum game.

but the OLine is still the much bigger issue. Forget about the passing game for a moment, look at our running game.

We all blamed Rashad Jennings for not being able to find the right holes to run through. He's gone, and the run game is still a joke.

The OLine is the biggest issue on the team; for going on the 6ht season in a row.

That's all on the GM.

.
lonk - ( New Window )

which is what I think many of you are making it. The problem is we have no threat of a running game. Defenses are putting four men on the line and seven people in coverage leaving little to no where for Eli to throw it. To make matters worse defenses are still able to get to him with just having four down lineman.

In comment 13596478 DonQuixote said:

Quote:

In comment 13595887 PatersonPlank said: Quote: 2nd and goal – Flowers misses, Jerry Misses, Richburg doesn’t try to block anyone and Hart misses. This is 100% on the line and this is 100% why Eli has zero chill in the pocket. Pugh decided to block, soooo….he’ll probably sign somewhere else next year. My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning Dude, that was ONE play. Here's another, 3rd and 4 and Shepard is crossing in front of the first down marker with Lee covering him tight. One second later Shepard is past Lee, but Eli throws it early and almost over his head. Shepard leaps to make the difficult catch (which should have been easy), but Lee hits him hard, and we punt. Protection was there was fine, bad decision, bad pass. Another play, Marshall all alone in the flat, Eli flushed out of the pocket, and panics. He does not lob the pass in front of the stationary Marshall, he zips it...you either zip it to him or lead him with touch. Good decision, bad pass. Another play, Marshall finds a soft spot in the zone and while crossing the field Eli throws 3 yards behind him and over his head. Marshall stands there in dis-belief. Eli had a bad game. Eli himself would say that. So don't trot one play out there and act like another person's valid perspective makes you laugh.

He's simply quoting part of the Reddit post and saying it made him laugh.

Read the link.

two comments in the Reddit thread

Quote:

It's so simple. The lack of a running game allows defenses to put only 5 guys in the box. Since running the ball yields nothing, all the linebackers are pass first defenders. This is a HUGE issue as if they are in zone, they're all dropping back reading Eli. It seems as if no one is open because no one is open. They have 7 guys to cover 4 targets (assuming a tight end or back stays in to block). Not to mention they're simultaneously creating a pass rush with only 4 or 5 players. The pass rush is effective not only because of the lack of talent on the giants o-line, but the fact that their offense is one dimensional. These d-ends aren't worried about their run fits because they know it's a pass. They're pinning their ears back and flying upfield every snap. Loved the write up and respect all the effort you put into it, but focused too much on the offense and not on how defenses are forcing Eli's hand due to being one dimensional. Source: Ex-College DB

and

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This is why EZ cams are needed. The play before the half was not Manning's worst play. It was a sky coverage which you attack in the flats, curl zones and with deep digs/ins. Marshall was supposed to sit in the deep pocket btw the corner and S which is exactly where Manning threw it. Instead he ran through it where Lee was camped out underneath and if thrown out in front of him would have put both the pass and Marshall in harm's way. Dallas had a great plan which was made even more effective by field position and the Giants need to drive 80-90 yards on almost every series. Camp out their rangy LBs in zone and pinch off the intermediate level which it where guys like Engram and Marshall would do the most damage. Take the short stuff all night knowing that if the Giants are forced to dink and dunk all night they'd be unable to avoid 3rd and long because they can't run even against minimally manned boxes and generally suck at generating YAC/RAC sans Beckham (Shepard is vastly overrated already in the slot and Perkins/Vereen are only going to get what's blocked for them). Couple that with stunts and loops which make passing windows a moving target. I don't completely disagree on premise or the one-sided passing game though. 29 of 38 attempts went Middle or Right and several to the left were during the last 2 drives. I think the root of it all is an almost overemphasis on protecting the football given how good the defense is. It's not being cautious about getting hit - it's keeping the football out of harms way. Reese is a copycat and he's trying to copy Denver's approach during Peyton's twilight.

In comment 13596487 DonQuixote said:

Quote:

. lonk - ( New Window )

Watch the offensive line on this play. Eli gets the snap at the 28 yard line. After 2 seconds (by the play clock at the bottom of the screen), all 9 OL and DL are between the 29 and the 26, with only 1 Giant offensive lineman (Flowers) inside the hashmarks.

2 seconds. After 2 seconds there is zero semblance of anything even close to a pocket.

I thought Eli was really poor on Sunday and I'm not making excuses. He has to be better. But the offensive line was an absolute disaster.

This is just like 2003 when everyone thought Kerry Collins needed to go because he "couldn't improvise" behind the worst line in the league. Some of you guys are just so clueless blaming Eli. We have no running game. This line needs to be completely rebuilt and it should have happened several years ago. For this Jerry Reese needs to go.

Well said.

I see quite a few better playing QB's .QB's who would lead us to the SB with this D. Eli = Dinasaur

In comment 13596496 Sonic Youth said:

Quote:

In comment 13596478 DonQuixote said: Quote: In comment 13595887 PatersonPlank said: Quote: 2nd and goal – Flowers misses, Jerry Misses, Richburg doesn’t try to block anyone and Hart misses. This is 100% on the line and this is 100% why Eli has zero chill in the pocket. Pugh decided to block, soooo….he’ll probably sign somewhere else next year. My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning Dude, that was ONE play. Here's another, 3rd and 4 and Shepard is crossing in front of the first down marker with Lee covering him tight. One second later Shepard is past Lee, but Eli throws it early and almost over his head. Shepard leaps to make the difficult catch (which should have been easy), but Lee hits him hard, and we punt. Protection was there was fine, bad decision, bad pass. Another play, Marshall all alone in the flat, Eli flushed out of the pocket, and panics. He does not lob the pass in front of the stationary Marshall, he zips it...you either zip it to him or lead him with touch. Good decision, bad pass. Another play, Marshall finds a soft spot in the zone and while crossing the field Eli throws 3 yards behind him and over his head. Marshall stands there in dis-belief. Eli had a bad game. Eli himself would say that. So don't trot one play out there and act like another person's valid perspective makes you laugh. He's simply quoting part of the Reddit post and saying it made him laugh. Read the link.

No, thanks, but I think I read the post just fine. I read the link.

Eli had a bad game, the OL had a bad game. What I chaffe against is the notion that we have to have this rock solid OL that anyone could stand behind, in order to be successful. Meanwhile, other teams are putting fewer draft resources into the OL and instead have a QB that can still get out of the pocket.

So are you saying Eli played well?

In comment 13596502 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 13596487 DonQuixote said: Quote: . lonk - ( New Window ) Watch the offensive line on this play. Eli gets the snap at the 28 yard line. After 2 seconds (by the play clock at the bottom of the screen), all 9 OL and DL are between the 29 and the 26, with only 1 Giant offensive lineman (Flowers) inside the hashmarks. 2 seconds. After 2 seconds there is zero semblance of anything even close to a pocket. I thought Eli was really poor on Sunday and I'm not making excuses. He has to be better. But the offensive line was an absolute disaster.

I never said the OL played well. It is just that people here see the OL play and Eli gets a complete pass. He sucked and he said so himself...this is not controversial

In comment 13596502 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 13596487 DonQuixote said: Quote: . lonk - ( New Window ) Watch the offensive line on this play. Eli gets the snap at the 28 yard line. After 2 seconds (by the play clock at the bottom of the screen), all 9 OL and DL are between the 29 and the 26, with only 1 Giant offensive lineman (Flowers) inside the hashmarks. 2 seconds. After 2 seconds there is zero semblance of anything even close to a pocket. I thought Eli was really poor on Sunday and I'm not making excuses. He has to be better. But the offensive line was an absolute disaster.

Not seeing what you see. I see a QB under zero pressure missing the WR really badly.

company line. I just don't think that QB play is a plus area for us

In comment 13595943 djstat said:

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Plays particularly well when the OL plays poorly

Likewise, OL's are a convenient scapegoat when the QB plays poorly.

In comment 13596486 Dave in Hoboken said:

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The OLine is the biggest issue on the team; for going on the 6ht season in a row.

Certainly not. I think you're forgetting a few seasons where the defense was completely horrific.

In comment 13596534 GeorgeAdams33 said:

Quote:

This is just like 2003 when everyone thought Kerry Collins needed to go because he "couldn't improvise" behind the worst line in the league. Some of you guys are just so clueless blaming Eli. We have no running game. This line needs to be completely rebuilt and it should have happened several years ago. For this Jerry Reese needs to go.

What you're describing is basically a "game manager" type of QB. And that's fine - there's ample evidence that a game manager QB with a good running game and strong defense can be a contender. The problem is, Eli is paid as a franchise QB - they're supposed to elevate those around them (and they're paid accordingly).

If you're going to have a strong, veteran-laden D and a franchise QB, you have to keep costs down somewhere. Now, if Eli were to be paid ~$15M/yr instead of $20M, that would free up some cap room to be used on OL reinforcements.

There's a lot of hand-wringing here about the Giants wasting the last few years of Eli's career with a poor OL. Do you ever wonder if Eli is as worried about that himself? Enough to take a restructure that brings his money down to Brady's level, for example, so that the team can strengthen the OL for him?

If they win they get paid

In comment 13596405 Daniel in MI said:

Quote:

Bradford was getting hit and had guys in his face but was locked in and putting the ball into the WR hands deep like handing it off. I have to admit, for that night at least, I was jealous. Eli has so-so accuracy for an NFL QB, but his duck and survive another play mentality, combined with his poor agility makes him rush a lot of throws. Add no run game and the guy needs a stud OL. Everyone but JR seems to get that....

Do you really think Reese doesn't get it? People seem to forget that we were somewhat hamstrung in free agency early on this past offseason because of JPP and Hankins. Having JPP on the tag froze a large chunk of cap room and the team seemed to be holding back another chunk while they negotiated with Hankins. Add to that, the FA OL crop got some serious money this past year, which the Giants likely got priced out of pretty quickly because of the JPP/Hankins situations. Sure, you can point to the draft, but it's not like the Giants have neglected OL in the draft in recent years, and this year's OL draft class was widely seen as below average.

This is the cold reality of the salary cap era. The Giants have a veteran defense (which is expensive) and are paying Eli as a franchise QB (also expensive). Tough decisions and tight budgeting are required elsewhere in order to fit under the cap. Reese may be in full agreement with everyone on this board that the OL needs serious and immediate help, but there's only so much he can do within the constraints of the cap and the selection of talent/upgrades available to him.

In comment 13596743 GeorgeAdams33 said:

Quote:

If they win they get paid

Not exactly. If they need this and they need that in order to be effective, they don't get paid like franchise QBs. We're paying top dollar for a version of Eli that - if your own hypothesis is accurate, that Eli needs a strong running game and great OL in order to be effective - is more like Trent Dilfer than vintage Eli.

Paying that kind of money to Eli lays the responsibility at his feet that he has to be able to overcome some weakness somewhere in the offense. Last year we lamented the lack of secondary targets and the weak TE group (in addition to the OL). Marshall, Ellison and Engram were all acquired to address those needs. The OL was a challenge to repair this past offseason (for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post). But if Eli needs all of these additional resources to be successful, it's time for Eli to fund some of it with a pay cut.

Glad I kept reading. Although the harsh critique of Manning is hard to take, anyone who doesn't consider him at least a possible part of the problem hasn't been paying attention since November 2012. It's not a question of whether he is "shot". That's more relevant to other teams that might consider acquiring him in 2018. The issue at this point is whether he can succeed behind the line we have (or any line we're likely to have in the foreseeable future), not whether he would thrive with the protection afforded Marcus Mariota or Dak Prescott.

A healthy Beckham would certainly help. How much? That's really hard to say. I'm sure there will be some games where the problems seem to be receding. Over the course of the season, though, a pure pocket passer behind a weak line just doesn't seem like a promising combination, no matter how good the #1 WR may be.

In comment 13596478 DonQuixote said:

Quote:

In comment 13595887 PatersonPlank said: Quote: 2nd and goal – Flowers misses, Jerry Misses, Richburg doesn’t try to block anyone and Hart misses. This is 100% on the line and this is 100% why Eli has zero chill in the pocket. Pugh decided to block, soooo….he’ll probably sign somewhere else next year. My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning Dude, that was ONE play. Here's another, 3rd and 4 and Shepard is crossing in front of the first down marker with Lee covering him tight. One second later Shepard is past Lee, but Eli throws it early and almost over his head. Shepard leaps to make the difficult catch (which should have been easy), but Lee hits him hard, and we punt. Protection was there was fine, bad decision, bad pass. Another play, Marshall all alone in the flat, Eli flushed out of the pocket, and panics. He does not lob the pass in front of the stationary Marshall, he zips it...you either zip it to him or lead him with touch. Good decision, bad pass. Another play, Marshall finds a soft spot in the zone and while crossing the field Eli throws 3 yards behind him and over his head. Marshall stands there in dis-belief. Eli had a bad game. Eli himself would say that. So don't trot one play out there and act like another person's valid perspective makes you laugh.

If the average fan watching can see how terrible this O-line is with the missed assignments, being overpowered and inability to handle a basic stunt, what do you think Eli sees with his experience? He must watch these game tapes and go into the next game wondering which of these clowns is going to get me killed. It's just human nature to lose confidence in a group when you see continual sub-par play at times bordering on high school bad. The game is won in the trenches and we are severely lacking in that dept.

In comment 13596746 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 13596405 Daniel in MI said: Quote: Bradford was getting hit and had guys in his face but was locked in and putting the ball into the WR hands deep like handing it off. I have to admit, for that night at least, I was jealous. Eli has so-so accuracy for an NFL QB, but his duck and survive another play mentality, combined with his poor agility makes him rush a lot of throws. Add no run game and the guy needs a stud OL. Everyone but JR seems to get that.... Do you really think Reese doesn't get it? People seem to forget that we were somewhat hamstrung in free agency early on this past offseason because of JPP and Hankins. Having JPP on the tag froze a large chunk of cap room and the team seemed to be holding back another chunk while they negotiated with Hankins. Add to that, the FA OL crop got some serious money this past year, which the Giants likely got priced out of pretty quickly because of the JPP/Hankins situations. Sure, you can point to the draft, but it's not like the Giants have neglected OL in the draft in recent years, and this year's OL draft class was widely seen as below average. This is the cold reality of the salary cap era. The Giants have a veteran defense (which is expensive) and are paying Eli as a franchise QB (also expensive). Tough decisions and tight budgeting are required elsewhere in order to fit under the cap. Reese may be in full agreement with everyone on this board that the OL needs serious and immediate help, but there's only so much he can do within the constraints of the cap and the selection of talent/upgrades available to him.

He should have drafted Tunsil instead of Eli Apple, when your O-line is that bad you DO what you have to DO, and Reese did NOT...

In comment 13596649 DonQuixote said:

Quote:

In comment 13596496 Sonic Youth said: Quote: In comment 13596478 DonQuixote said: Quote: In comment 13595887 PatersonPlank said: Quote: 2nd and goal – Flowers misses, Jerry Misses, Richburg doesn’t try to block anyone and Hart misses. This is 100% on the line and this is 100% why Eli has zero chill in the pocket. Pugh decided to block, soooo….he’ll probably sign somewhere else next year. My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning Dude, that was ONE play. Here's another, 3rd and 4 and Shepard is crossing in front of the first down marker with Lee covering him tight. One second later Shepard is past Lee, but Eli throws it early and almost over his head. Shepard leaps to make the difficult catch (which should have been easy), but Lee hits him hard, and we punt. Protection was there was fine, bad decision, bad pass. Another play, Marshall all alone in the flat, Eli flushed out of the pocket, and panics. He does not lob the pass in front of the stationary Marshall, he zips it...you either zip it to him or lead him with touch. Good decision, bad pass. Another play, Marshall finds a soft spot in the zone and while crossing the field Eli throws 3 yards behind him and over his head. Marshall stands there in dis-belief. Eli had a bad game. Eli himself would say that. So don't trot one play out there and act like another person's valid perspective makes you laugh. He's simply quoting part of the Reddit post and saying it made him laugh. Read the link. No, thanks, but I think I read the post just fine. I read the link. Eli had a bad game, the OL had a bad game. What I chaffe against is the notion that we have to have this rock solid OL that anyone could stand behind, in order to be successful. Meanwhile, other teams are putting fewer draft resources into the OL and instead have a QB that can still get out of the pocket. So are you saying Eli played well?

No, I'm saying that you're responding to the poster on BBI as if he's OP