Reddit post: Eli and O-line breakdown

He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt.

In comment 13595862 BlueHurricane said:

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He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt.

All QBs do. Look at Brady last week, or a number of others. No time means no options to pick the right receiver.

when they have no faith in their OL. It happens when you have to spend as much time looking for pass rushers as you do looking for your receivers.

In comment 13595865 PatersonPlank said:

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In comment 13595862 BlueHurricane said: Quote: He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt. All QBs do. Look at Brady last week, or a number of others. No time means no options to pick the right receiver.

Brady had all the time in the world to throw on several dropbacks last week. I can't remember Eli having anything like that.

In comment 13595862 BlueHurricane said:

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He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt.

I don't agree with this - the OL was brutal during the regular season in 2011 and Eli had his best season. I don't think the OL in 14/15 was good, either.

the post I linked is worth reading and considering on its own.

Or it looks that way. He's not really throwing it all that well and didn't last year either.

2nd and goal – Flowers misses, Jerry Misses, Richburg doesn’t try to block anyone and Hart misses. This is 100% on the line and this is 100% why Eli has zero chill in the pocket. Pugh decided to block, soooo….he’ll probably sign somewhere else next year.

My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning

He needs to step his game up. He had plenty of time on many occasions as the reddit poster showed, yet he is still not seeing the field well, he is looking at his first reads only and then panicking is that doesn't work out. He is also making bad throws. I'm worried for sure, this can't go on much longer, Eli is slowly turning into David Carr.

The other huge problem the poster mentioned which was what I noticed all game is the play calling, its still far to conservative and predictable. They need to design more plays down the field, instead of check down dink and dunks. Macadoo needs to show more as the playcaller or he will be on the hot seat too if he can't turn this offense around.

but the blocking and run game support hasn't allowed him to get into rhythm for quite a while now.

I like him at 5 steps(not 3), but no way can they do that with the blocking the way it is. He get's time for one read or a safety dump off in this system. He's got the brains to go through 3 reads, but not the time. They're gonna end up wasting a 3rd of his career if they don't get this corrected.

This is going into the 6th year(if you include the last Super Bowl season) of O-line issues and sub par play form the unit and it has seemingly gotten worse each season.

That's depressing.

The offense was a shit show.

has affected Eli significantly resulting in a lot of bad decisions and an anemic offense. If it doesn't change and soon this could be a very frustrating season. I would pay money to see Jones in for Jerry next week but this coach seems to be very stubborn, so far it hasn't paid off for the offense.

This past weekend? And he is a very mobile guy.

Waiting for covered receivers to get some separation? Just saying....

Plays particularly well when the OL plays poorly

In comment 13595862 BlueHurricane said:

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He is shot without improved play from the O-Line. That said if you put Eli behind a line like Dallas or Tennessee he is a pro bowl level player no doubt.

So is Dak Prescott and Marcus Mariotta, so I don't think that says anything about Eli's play.

Eli seemed to have two players open beyond the sticks when he throws -- but makes that awful throw instead. He was not good, period, and it's not all on the OL (but Jerry sucks, that's as much of a fact as death and taxes).

The picture of four blockers on two Cowboys when two other Cowboys are unblocked is especially brutal. Any LB will look great when unblocked.

In comment 13595929 gmenatlarge said:

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has affected Eli significantly resulting in a lot of bad decisions and an anemic offense. If it doesn't change and soon this could be a very frustrating season. I would pay money to see Jones in for Jerry next week but this coach seems to be very stubborn, so far it hasn't paid off for the offense.

It's been more than 3 years.

At this point, PTSD has made Eli as much a part of the problem as the line itself.


OK, that was game 1. RUSTY. Never a shocker, but certainly very disappointing.

Beckham alone isn't going to fix this mess. I want to believe, but am having a really hard time seeing where CONSISTENCY in the offense will ever materialize. I'm tired of every first down feeling like a fucking miracle.

I think that's an appropriate assessment. He reminds me of Dave Carr with Houston when he was getting hammered.

In comment 13595977 Jerz44 said:

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I think that's an appropriate assessment. He reminds me of Dave Carr with Houston when he was getting hammered.

I'm beginning to think that as well. Eli is jittery because he doesn't trust his OL. The repeated pummelings are adding up, and contributing to his inconsistency.

He is too concerned with protecting the ball. He wants to avoid a strip sack or tipped ball for an INT. He also doesn't want to lose yards on a sack. Also, God willing, he wants to avoid injury and prolong his career. He's being smart.

You guys make Eli sound like a pussy.

The 2011 Eli that stood in there and took vicious hits to deliver the ball against San Fran is gone. He looks to be playing now to not get hurt and collect his money. Other than the Washington hit in game 3 last year I can't remember any big hits he's taken. He could possibly end up being the worst contract in the league this year

Eli is not throwing the ball on schedule or in rhythm. That is going to continue if opponents continue to show zero respect for our offensive line. They are daring us to beat 4 defensive linemen with 5 offensive linemen, and we can't do it.

here's the summary:

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My conclusion. This o-line stinks. We all know it stinks. But the person who thinks it stinks worse than even us is Eli Manning and that's a huge problem. It looks like, at times, he's playing to not get hurt. And that's not going to be enough for us. Better QBs overcome worse lines. Seattle has a way worse line than we do but unfortunately Eli accentuates the problems with this line. It looks to me that we're dealing with a shell shocked version of the Eli we all love. He's half Eli and half David Carr. He needs to overcome that or it's going to be a really long year. John Jerry has gone from our 2nd best lineman to our worst. With a fucking bullet. So that means that Hart and Flowers have actually improved, while Jerry has regressed. He should be replaced. The play calling isn't great. Far too often we're not even running routes past the sticks. At a certain point I can't figure out if we're trying to protect Eli from the line or protect Eli from Eli. He doesn't seem willing to move beyond his first read and his first read is often a check down. I'm willing to give the play calling a break until OBJ is back though. This game was on Eli. There will absolutely be games on the Line, this wasn't one of them.

I agree with this 100%.

Jerry wasn't that bad last year - not great, not awful - but he was horrendous all preseason and on Sunday night. He needs the bench, pronto.

Eli isn't being rushed on every play, but he might as well be. He's not seeing the field, and not firing on all cylinders when given time. At this point, he's more liability than solution, unfortunately.

Playcalling is definitely broken - McAdoo needs to give it up, the sooner the better. If Sullivan is as bad or worse, fine. Hopefully that's not the case.

a weaker spot or two at the oline and manage through it. We saw this when the Snee, Kmac, O'Hara, Diehl, ect. guys started to decline and finish up their careers. There was at least some consistency to where the pressure was most likely to come from.

The QB can give a quick glance (no doing this with 5 guys, you get one at most). The QB favors a certain side and slides a little to that side in the pocket. You hvae a better idea where to provide the extra protection with your TE or one of your backs. The group mentioned above, it was usually towards Diehl.

This current group, it's a fucking crap shoot. There is no consistency to the inconsistency with this bunch. It could be almost any one of them that's gonna hang you out to dry.

was that gunslinger mentality. When everything was collapsing around him, he'd be cool and dare to be great. Now sometimes it would blow up with a bad interception, but sometimes he'd pull a rabbit out of his hat, eg Tyree, Manningham, etc. The problem is he has lost that bravado, and all we are left with is a jumpy QB, making nothing but very safe throws, who still throws the occasionally stupid INT. Not a great combo.

to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me.

There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen.

I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year.

Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field.

He's not seeing it after one game this year.

But it will get better...............

In comment 13596027 SHO'NUFF said:

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He is too concerned with protecting the ball. He wants to avoid a strip sack or tipped ball for an INT. He also doesn't want to lose yards on a sack. Also, God willing, he wants to avoid injury and prolong his career. He's being smart. You guys make Eli sound like a pussy.

Agreed. He's being cautious because he has to be at this point...otherwise he's going to get hit/fumble or force balls to receivers who aren't open yet. Hence the check downs......despite being a gunslinger, there is a point where he has to not just give the ball away multiple times a game, or even half.

In comment 13596061 BillKo said:

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to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me. There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen. I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year. Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field. He's not seeing it after one game this year. But it will get better...............

That was my point with my above post. Who on here wouldn't sign up for that 2011 line? They got better in the playoffs sure, but that really was the beginning of this downward trend in the oline. But my point was, there was still consistency to their warts and this current group doesn't even have that.

And to a lesser extent Jerry and Hart, have ruined what was left of Eli's career. The guy has not had a good OL in over SEVEN years! Think about that for a second. Eli has not had trust in his OL to block for him solidly for that long, and we are clearly seeing the after effects of all of the beatings.

Eli is smart, so he hasnt taken too many bad hits, but that has led to him being jumpy and his internal clock is way off. I would consider myself one of the bigger Eli fans, but I am starting to get worried that we may never see the real Eli again.

In comment 13596071 Motley Two said:

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In comment 13596061 BillKo said: Quote: to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me. There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen. I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year. Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field. He's not seeing it after one game this year. But it will get better............... That was my point with my above post. Who on here wouldn't sign up for that 2011 line? They got better in the playoffs sure, but that really was the beginning of this downward trend in the oline. But my point was, there was still consistency to their warts and this current group doesn't even have that.

Exactly. You don't think Eli trusted Kareem McKenzie? The guy was a rock. The interior was pretty good too, allowing Eli to step up when Diehl would give up pressure.

And Eli knew, despite DD being a pretty darn good player, that that was the weak link.

This 2017 line, right now, can have a break down anywhere and that's a tough proposition for a QB.

In comment 13596076 BillKo said:

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In comment 13596071 Motley Two said: Quote: In comment 13596061 BillKo said: Quote: to 2011 is just not going to cut it for me. There's no way Eli can throw for almost 5,000 yards behind this line...isn't going to happen. I know PFF had that 2011 had that line ranked in near the bottom, but that was the Gilbride offense which had long developing plays. Maybe he was getting hit after the throw, but those option routes required time, and he got enough time that year. Maybe they didn't run the ball great that year, but the held blocks long enough for Eli to see the field. He's not seeing it after one game this year. But it will get better............... That was my point with my above post. Who on here wouldn't sign up for that 2011 line? They got better in the playoffs sure, but that really was the beginning of this downward trend in the oline. But my point was, there was still consistency to their warts and this current group doesn't even have that. Exactly. You don't think Eli trusted Kareem McKenzie? The guy was a rock. The interior was pretty good too, allowing Eli to step up when Diehl would give up pressure. And Eli knew, despite DD being a pretty darn good player, that that was the weak link. This 2017 line, right now, can have a break down anywhere and that's a tough proposition for a QB.

Yep, I have no idea what he's supposed to do. Maybe pray?

In comment 13596027 SHO'NUFF said:

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He is too concerned with protecting the ball. He wants to avoid a strip sack or tipped ball for an INT. He also doesn't want to lose yards on a sack. Also, God willing, he wants to avoid injury and prolong his career. He's being smart. You guys make Eli sound like a pussy.

I agree with you. Eli being scared isn't the problem IMHO. And I'm certainly not afraid to critisize him for sure. I hate all his interceptions and fumbles and bad decisions every year but I never question his balls that's for sure. At times I think he should take off with the ball more but he looks for someone downfield too often when it isn't there but it isn't in my view because he's scared.

back in 07, calling him skittish?

I don't think it's just a trust thing - maybe Eli has regressed a bit to the QB he was earlier in his career.

and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now.

In comment 13595931 Giant John said:

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This past weekend? And he is a very mobile guy.

he was running for his life. Hawks made the Pack d look like the 85 Bears

In comment 13596089 NorwoodWideRight said:

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and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now.

He's playing behind a shit line would be a cop-out if he was not... But he is playing behind a shit line, to say it's all on him is ridiculous.. you can count on one hand the number of clean pockets he had on sunday, doesn't mean he played well, but damn, that line was embarassing

In comment 13596089 NorwoodWideRight said:

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and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now.

I haven't seen many free passes, just some cause & effect exercises. Tom Brady and his 16 completions Thursday night looked pretty jittery too.

In comment 13596098 JayinVT said:

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In comment 13596089 NorwoodWideRight said: Quote: and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now. He's playing behind a shit line would be a cop-out if he was not... But he is playing behind a shit line, to say it's all on him is ridiculous.. you can count on one hand the number of clean pockets he had on sunday, doesn't mean he played well, but damn, that line was embarassing

If the pocket collapses and he throws it in the dirt or misses a receiver, I expect him to be able to step up and make a throw on the following play when he has time. He has shown consistently (over the course of numerous games going back to last season) that his head is on a swivel and he's hearing footsteps, which is causing him to dump off or have errant throws. That's on Eli.

In comment 13596104 NorwoodWideRight said:

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In comment 13596098 JayinVT said: Quote: In comment 13596089 NorwoodWideRight said: Quote: and put 100% of the blame on the OL? 2 years? 3? Guess what? Eli stunk it up last year and, judging from game one, shows absolutely no signs of improving. To say, "well, what do you expect, he's behind a shit line?" is a cop-out. He's not playing very good. He's not making or extending plays. He's playing at a jittery, rookie-level and has been for over a season now. He's playing behind a shit line would be a cop-out if he was not... But he is playing behind a shit line, to say it's all on him is ridiculous.. you can count on one hand the number of clean pockets he had on sunday, doesn't mean he played well, but damn, that line was embarassing If the pocket collapses and he throws it in the dirt or misses a receiver, I expect him to be able to step up and make a throw on the following play when he has time. He has shown consistently (over the course of numerous games going back to last season) that his head is on a swivel and he's hearing footsteps, which is causing him to dump off or have errant throws. That's on Eli.

Sure and every game he plays should look like the NFCCG vs. San Fran. Why can't he just do that some more?

He was saving Paul Perkins's ass from getting lit. There was nothing to be gained even if Perkins caught it.

One, the 2011 was garbage running the ball for most of the season. That line was competent at pass protection though. There are some great highlight videos I have seen on YouTube where Eli is making crazy throws, like the comeback in Dallas (JPP fg block game) and Eli is standing in the pocket surveying the field and delivering the ball like a boss. Eli has nothing like that protection today. This line is a fucking travesty.

Two, any QB will be worse when they have no time to survey, set and throw. Also, no QB likes to get hit. Take Brady in this past Super Bowl. Early on the Falcons were getting after it with jailbreak pressure and Brady looked like shit. Same game, once the Pats hit a rhythm and got some protection going he was lights fucking out.

People claim,oh if Eli could scramble, but that does not solve the problem at all. Take Dak, on the Giants with ZERO run game and being put in constant long down and distance I would love to see how he performs. Sure he is immense and can scramble, but eventually he will get rocked on run and injured, or he will be under duress and chuck it up. You can not solve a shit o line by having a scrambling QB. When the Seahawks won with Wilson they had a great D and a big time power run game. Sure the mobile QB may mitigate some of the issues, but if you have a bad o line that can not pass or run block, you are fucked.

The Giants have no running game. No way to pound and wear down the opposing front. This means poor down and distance, this means all pass rushers can pin back amd go after Eli, this means NO respect for Play action and this means no chance of running the ball for a TD in the red zone which hurts production there. These are all old problems that have yet to be solved. Sure, Eli could be better, but this o line is a joke.

go figure....

Its taken its toll . You never know who is gonna break down
and it's affecting him in his timing and mechanics basically
in his head and as I think it was Duggan saying that the Giants had no answer to the zone they were playing not to mention not even remotely worried about the run game
all begins and ends with protection ,
When you get clobbered on the 2nd play of the game it's the SOS for Eli and he goes into protect mode himself and the ball . If were gonna be stuck with this shit show all year
there better be optimal effort as it stands now the Front Office blew it .

Among the best leaders this franchise has had.

But the continued rationalizations for his poor play is absurd. Yes, every QB has poor games, and yes, the OL play impact the offense's ability to move the ball. The problem is we're paying the guy an avg of $21M per year because he's elite. Among the best at his position. Not because the owners are generous, but because he's the leader of the offense. He's supposed to be the best player on the field and the guy who makes those around him better. He's charged with managing the ebbs and flows of the game, to mitigate risk and and take calculated shots. I don't think he's done that well for at least 3 years.

He's always had a bit Jekyl/Hyde gunslinger to him. People here used to kill Brett Farve for that same style. A couple of brilliant throws followed by a rollout left, left-handed, underhanded toss into three defenders. Or slipping the pocket for a 10 yd gain only to fall down awkwardly and create a fumble without being touched. He's had some brutal seasons and has led the league in picks twice.

That said, he's also a two time SB MVP/champion and is paid as much for past production as what he is now. I get it. Well deserved. Problem is, he's taking up a significant portion of the fixed cap on the downside of his career. This limits management's ability to improve other areas of the team. The OL, for instance.

Parting ways with a legend is seldom neat as these guys always think they've got enough in the tank to keep going. Particulary guys who play that premium position. Ultimately, there comes a point where the franchise needs to reassess the benefit of paying a guy for past performance and look ahead. Some might say Webb is a sign of that. I personally don't think he's the guy, but some here seem to be excited.

I was cautious on resigning Eli to his last deal. I wouldn't have given him his current deal coming off several consecutive underwhelming seasons.

Saying so isn't blasphemous. Doesn't make us bad fans or the Giants a disloyal organization. The 9ers traded Joe Montana. The Colts moved on from Unitas and Manning. The Pack moved on from Favre. The Rams moved on from Warner. Orr, Mays, Rice, Aaron, etc.

It's time to move on.

Eli's had long stretches of his career where he's played poorly before. The back half of 2012 and all of 2013, with the exception of a few games, was pretty bad. His age certainly raises questions. But I remain optimistic that he can get back to what he was in 2014/2015.

I think his arm strength is still fine, but I think the lack of protection he has had over the past 3-4 years has caused him to hear footsteps. I think that is a really difficult thing to get over.

In comment 13596276 Modus Operandi said:

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Among the best leaders this franchise has had. But the continued rationalizations for his poor play is absurd. Yes, every QB has poor games, and yes, the OL play impact the offense's ability to move the ball. The problem is we're paying the guy an avg of $21M per year because he's elite. Among the best at his position. Not because the owners are generous, but because he's the leader of the offense. He's supposed to be the best player on the field and the guy who makes those around him better. He's charged with managing the ebbs and flows of the game, to mitigate risk and and take calculated shots. I don't think he's done that well for at least 3 years. He's always had a bit Jekyl/Hyde gunslinger to him. People here used to kill Brett Farve for that same style. A couple of brilliant throws followed by a rollout left, left-handed, underhanded toss into three defenders. Or slipping the pocket for a 10 yd gain only to fall down awkwardly and create a fumble without being touched. He's had some brutal seasons and has led the league in picks twice. That said, he's also a two time SB MVP/champion and is paid as much for past production as what he is now. I get it. Well deserved. Problem is, he's taking up a significant portion of the fixed cap on the downside of his career. This limits management's ability to improve other areas of the team. The OL, for instance. Parting ways with a legend is seldom neat as these guys always think they've got enough in the tank to keep going. Particulary guys who play that premium position. Ultimately, there comes a point where the franchise needs to reassess the benefit of paying a guy for past performance and look ahead. Some might say Webb is a sign of that. I personally don't think he's the guy, but some here seem to be excited. I was cautious on resigning Eli to his last deal. I wouldn't have given him his current deal coming off several consecutive underwhelming seasons. Saying so isn't blasphemous. Doesn't make us bad fans or the Giants a disloyal organization. The 9ers traded Joe Montana. The Colts moved on from Unitas and Manning. The Pack moved on from Favre. The Rams moved on from Warner. Orr, Mays, Rice, Aaron, etc. It's time to move on.

I would like to see how this season plays out before cutting Eli. Also, if the Giants made a change at QB with this team as currently constituted things would be better?

I guess you free cap room, but if the team is fortunate to get a franchise QB it will be time to pay that guy.

To me, it should be easier to strengthen the o line or find a coach / GM who can get a power run game.

In comment 13596282 BrettNYG10 said:

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Eli's had long stretches of his career where he's played poorly before. The back half of 2012 and all of 2013, with the exception of a few games, was pretty bad. His age certainly raises questions. But I remain optimistic that he can get back to what he was in 2014/2015.

Among his two biggest challenges the last few years has been poor decision making and accuracy.

You can mitigate the decision making by limiting the scheme to what we're running now. But the WCO demands a QB be accurate on dumps, hooks, slants and screens. This has never been his strength and I'm skeptical that at his advanced age he's suddenly going to excel in this type of game.

That's what really puzzles me. The offense doesn't suit the QB. The other personnel doesn't suit the offense. So what's the plan here and is this the best we could come up with in the time Mcadoo has been here?

Comparing whether Jones or Fluker would be a better answer to Jerry at RG.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NYGiants/comments/6znhlp/film_study_jones_vs_fluker_4_play_series_in/ - ( New Window )