The problem is the qb. In the two recent Superbowl seasons, the qb played at a hall of fame caliber, especially during the post season. We cant take that away from him. We can NEVER take that away from him. However, he is now a shell of that guy. He's jittery in the pocket, he cant move, he cant even step away from pressure, he rushes his reads. Even when he has adequate time, he still doesn't go through his progressions, and takes dump offs prematurely. Unfortunately when you have a below avg line and a below avg running game, the qb must pick up the slack Our qb does not. In fact, he's now become part of the problem.It started last year in the Minnesota game. Check the tape of Eli. Until the Giants improve the line and/or the running game, Eli will be a BELOW AVERAGE qb in this offense. We need someone with mobility or else we will not be able to make another Superbowl run, in spite of the current stellar defense.
Sorry in advance to all the Eli apologists
Even with a weak OL, there's no reason why this offense should be THIS bad. We've fielded passable offenses on a few occasions with subpar offensive lines - Eli is the constant and it's possible he's just hitting that wall.
I hope not - but I do think we're at a point now where we have to consider the possibility that maybe it's not McAdoo or the OL.. maybe it's the QB.
However I am getting tired of all these threads and no longer feel like arguing.
However I am getting tired of all these threads and no longer feel like arguing.
And i'd just point you to Hitdog's thread below, on how easy the crappy OL makes it on the defense.
Eli has regressed. He regressed badly. Ever since they started mussing with his footwork. And now it's been over two years and Eli is what he is.
You say Eli is the problem.
Then you say that he will not be able to do his job UNTIL the O-line and running game are fixed.
Meaning, when they are, Eli would be fine.
By the ay, Eli actually eluded the rush several times Sunday night. There was a shit ton of pressure on several plays. More times than not, they didn't put him on the ground.
However I am getting tired of all these threads and no longer feel like arguing.
C'mon how could it be the o-line's fault? Its clear that Eli is not handing the RBs the ball in the proper position for them to take advantage of the huge holes created by the o-line..../sarcasm
Seriously, if the "problem" is the lack of mobility from the QB position, why wouldn't you address the line and have better protection for a pocket passing QB? To me, thats on the GM and coaching for thinking they could survive with a poor o-line and immobile QB
This isn't a problem unique to NYG.
I'm not saying it's ALL Eli, but I don't think it's crazy to wonder if maybe he's part of the problem.
If any sort of rush gets through, he bails on the play and just falls to the ground because he has zero mobility or ability to extend a play. It's a lot to ask any OL in this league to hold clean pockets on nearly every pass play.
Eli is 1000% jittery, but its hard to place all the blame on a guy that hasnt had a solid offensive line in 7+ years. Find me a good QB that has had this bad of an OL for this long.
Peyton wasn't a Top 10 QB when he was in Denver - doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best QBs of all time though.
And he isn't contradicting himself. He is saying if we had 2007-2012 Eli, than the no running game and no OL wouldn't be an issue. Heck, we had a terrible running game in 2011 when when Eli carried us to his second SB.
But because Eli has regressed, Eli, in his current form cannot function in the current offense.
But Elli does look hesitant and skittish. He is missing throws even when he has the time, undoubtedly because he's been banged around so much that he expects it to happen on every play. As someone said, he's beginning to look like David Carr.
I LOVE Eli as a player and as a human being and what he's done for this organization and its fan base these many years but he may be at the point of no return? nd with no improvements in the Offensive line, Eli has gotten trigger happy and dumps the ball off at the first sign of the pocket collapsing.
I don't see more than this year and next year of Eli being the Giants starting QB and let me be the first one to say I will miss him! But this is not the same Eli!
Peyton wasn't a Top 10 QB when he was in Denver - doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best QBs of all time though.
And he isn't contradicting himself. He is saying if we had 2007-2012 Eli, than the no running game and no OL wouldn't be an issue. Heck, we had a terrible running game in 2011 when when Eli carried us to his second SB.
But because Eli has regressed, Eli, in his current form cannot function in the current offense.
This.
But Elli does look hesitant and skittish. He is missing throws even when he has the time, undoubtedly because he's been banged around so much that he expects it to happen on every play. As someone said, he's beginning to look like David Carr.
More like 60-40 OL/Eli if you count his dunderheaded plays, missing open receivers, throwing behind receivers or not hitting them in stride.
Eli has never had a line this bad. I think if you're one of those people that automatically assumed the two worst offensive tackles in football were going to improve this year, or you're one of those people that thinks a blocking TE and a blocking receiver( Marshall) were going to fix the line... you're now going to shift blame to Eli because you are "shocked".
Nope. It's still the line folks. The number two issue is the system. We are basically running a vanilla' down version of the west coast. It's 2017. Teams know how to plan for that by now.
And, as I said in a couple of other threads, I don't want to hear how badly he played last year. I think last year's performance is entirely blown out of proportion by many here. I'm not arguing Eli was all-pro material last year, but the facts remain that he had dogshit TE's, only slightly better RB's, a terrible OL, and one WR he could rely on. You could bring back a 25 year old Johnny Unitas and he would struggle.
Let's give this a chance to play out. Yes, Eli didn't play well, but it is one game, and one game without his best player. Relax.
I've been saying this for years now (and I love the guy). Though I would disagree with you and say he's been part of the problem for several years now, whether it be coming up small in big spots, or making ridiculous clock-management errors, or throwing brutal interceptions, etc. It's been happening for years.
There are maybe 2-3 other QBs in the league who simply can't run for a first down. Flacco (but even he is hard to bring down)? Palmer? Glennon? It's as if the game has evolved to the point where a qb must have some mobility and Eli simply doesn't. He seems like a relic - and it aint pretty.
Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton
Hurrying even when u have time is the tell tale sign. Hes cooked.
Feeding into that problem are numerous smaller problems - the OL isn't very good or consistent. Our best player is injured. Eli is immobile, complicating the first problem. His immobility and that OL instability are forcing him to make bad decisions. Playcalling hasn't been able to help scheme around all these issues.
Don't try to take a complicated matter and turn it into a simple one for convenience, it doesn't solve anything.
How many QBs would look good in this McAdoo offense? Russel Wilson? Aaron Rodgers? Maybe, but those guys have completely different skill sets and in the case of Rodgers you're talking about a guy who is one of the best ever mobile (or any other type) QBs. Eli can read defenses and he can pick your defense apart from the pocket, he can throw the deep ball as well as anyone in the league and he's lethal with play action. Does that skill set sound like a match for McAdoo's offense?
How good do think Tom Brady would be in this offense? Seriously? I think Brady would be about as bad as Eli in this offense.
Finally, can anyone point to a game since McAdoo arrived where our offense gameplan was at all innovative? Sure, OBJ can take a slant to the house but how else does this team score?
Eli has always been erratic as a player, he changes week to week. Its how he always has been. I want to say relax, he will figure it out, take into consideration how he had no weapons but OBJ last year and he still performed ok. But, Eli's weaknesses are compounded by the bad play calling, an inconsistent OL, and just time catching up to him. It's a bad mix, and while I certainly hope he can right the ship, i worry about his internal clock turning into David Carr, I have seen more bad Eli over the past year than the good Eli, I hope he has another run in him before his time is up, I'll be sad as a Giant if I don't get to witness him work his magic in the playoffs one last time.
damn well the O-line shits the bed .
Then Dallas with 4 lineman dismantle the offense seriously
it's not that hard to see and expecting Eli to make a difference is delusional I agree he did not play well but
he was hearing steps even when they were not there he didn't go through his progressions very well he will see the tape
but its easy to pick out 3-4 plays where he missed seeing a
guy open . For the most part these guys are not getting
open . He took what the Cowboys gave him .
He will play better Monday Night we will win the game if the O-line plays like starters .
damn well the O-line shits the bed .
Then Dallas with 4 lineman dismantle the offense seriously
it's not that hard to see and expecting Eli to make a difference is delusional I agree he did not play well but
he was hearing steps even when they were not there he didn't go through his progressions very well he will see the tape
but its easy to pick out 3-4 plays where he missed seeing a
guy open . For the most part these guys are not getting
open . He took what the Cowboys gave him .
He will play better Monday Night we will win the game if the O-line plays like starters .
I appreciate the haiku, but unfortunately you're not paying attention.
Hurrying even when u have time is the tell tale sign. Hes cooked.
That is my concern too, but I'm not ready to call him cooked. If the OL has been a problem since 2011 (and I agree with you), Eli had pretty good years in 2014 and 2015. Even last year wasn't nearly as bad as many here are making it out to be. So much of what we are making this judgement on is one game. Eli has been this franchise's rock for 13 years, and has brought us 2 SB titles. I think he deserves more than one game to prove he still has it.
Fans - and I'd argue teams as well - consistently underestimate the aging curve because they focus on the exceptions - Brady, Brees, etc. - and think their guy will be one of those too.
I still think we need more time to see whether it's applicable to Eli or not. He's had long stretches of pedestrian/mediocre play before (mid-2012 and all of 2013), etc. Fortunately, we still have 15 games left this season to get more data.
I believe the majority of the problem is the consistently poor offensive line performance. Opposing defenses do not have to respect:
- our running game
- our play action threat
- our deep passing threat
I believe that Eli and McAdoo are operating this offense with one hand tied behind their backs. If our quarterback has two seconds to throw the ball off his back foot into a secondary that is flooded with 7 defenders, something is very wrong.
I believe the majority of the problem is the consistently poor offensive line performance. Opposing defenses do not have to respect:
- our running game
- our play action threat
- our deep passing threat
I believe that Eli and McAdoo are operating this offense with one hand tied behind their backs. If our quarterback has two seconds to throw the ball off his back foot into a secondary that is flooded with 7 defenders, something is very wrong.
Perfect response.
He is a great drop back passer that knows the game and needs a decent running game to use play action .
It's one thing when you have one weak link on the offensive line and you have a gauge to know when to get rid of the ball
not 3 weak links and sometimes four . He is an excellent deep ball passer . He still has enough on his fast ball to throw
the deep out's . I do see some of the zip lost but not like
with Peyton near the end when everything was floated .
Rarely times when he can actually go through all his reads
Without sensing the pressure and minimizing turnovers .
as we see now he's shell shocked from having to constantly look for and get away from defenders on basically all his drop backs. I believe that hit he took in first washington game last season was the start of this. He's in desperate need of support of a running game to which they do not have.
With the way this ol is built now, and not very good, the offense to have any kind of success is to have a mobile qb..which Eli is not and never was.
Eli has never had a line this bad. I think if you're one of those people that automatically assumed the two worst offensive tackles in football were going to improve this year, or you're one of those people that thinks a blocking TE and a blocking receiver( Marshall) were going to fix the line... you're now going to shift blame to Eli because you are "shocked".
Nope. It's still the line folks. The number two issue is the system. We are basically running a vanilla' down version of the west coast. It's 2017. Teams know how to plan for that by now.
This. People keep bringing up the 2012 line and forget that line was pretty good at pass protection, they failed at run blocking and even with that, they were better at it then this line. Go back and look at some of the games from that year.
Britt in VA : 3:11 pm : link : reply
In comment 13597578 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Without putting a competent line in front of him it is impossible to say for sure how much of a problem he is. If you're saying he can't be an effective quarterback behind a line this bad, I'd agree that's a problem.
I believe the majority of the problem is the consistently poor offensive line performance. Opposing defenses do not have to respect:
- our running game
- our play action threat
- our deep passing threat
I believe that Eli and McAdoo are operating this offense with one hand tied behind their backs. If our quarterback has two seconds to throw the ball off his back foot into a secondary that is flooded with 7 defenders, something is very wrong.
It was so obvious last year to roll this same line out may be a disaster for a season in which we should make a deep run . It pisses me off to no end .
and three of his starters from last year are not even on rosters right now.
You might be right. The best coaches scheme for what they have and not for what they wish they had. It's easy to say, all we need is a QB like Aaron Rodgers. Yeah, sure, he's one of the best to ever play. I think a good coach would still be able to get some wins out of Eli. Anyway....
Whenever the HC is questioned about the play of the Oline, he immediately responds by noting it is not all on the line. Some of that is undoubtedly directed at the QB.
When an offense is performing as bad as this one is, there is more than enough blame to go around. We are dealing with a perfect storm of issues -uncreative/predictable play calling, a grossly under talented Oline, an immobile QB playing without confidence and without the benefit of a running game.
The hard truth is, when you pay your QB $20M a year, there is going to be tradeoffs. You would gladly take those tradeoffs if he is performing like Eli did in the SB runs because he would elevate the play of those around him. He is no longer doing that, at least not at the moment. At this time, he is not compensating for other deficiencies, he is compounding them. That is the harsh truth.
Are you saying we have lesser personel because Eli gets paid 20 million? I beg to differ.
We have two 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder invested in the line in the past four years.
We have Beckham Jr.
We have a 200 million dollar defense.
What tradeoffs did we have to make?
Pocket presence requires an actual pocket to maneuver in. The middle of our line is getting their sh-t stuffed in on most pass plays, and driven right back into Eli.
I would (and have) point more to the enormous money spent on the defense in 2016. The front office made the choice to go in that direction, IMO to the detriment of the offense and specifically the offensive line. THAT was the opportunity we had to make a sweeping change in that area.
To be completely fair, the defense has been very good since that decision was made. But is it good enough to overcome how bad the OL has become?
Eli has never had a line this bad. I think if you're one of those people that automatically assumed the two worst offensive tackles in football were going to improve this year, or you're one of those people that thinks a blocking TE and a blocking receiver( Marshall) were going to fix the line... you're now going to shift blame to Eli because you are "shocked".
Nope. It's still the line folks. The number two issue is the system. We are basically running a vanilla' down version of the west coast. It's 2017. Teams know how to plan for that by now.
Yep.
And the folks calling this OL mediocre need to watch some other teams. This line is easily one of the worst if not the worst in the NFL.
Quote:
The hard truth is, when you pay your QB $20M a year, there is going to be tradeoffs.
I would (and have) point more to the enormous money spent on the defense in 2016. The front office made the choice to go in that direction, IMO to the detriment of the offense and specifically the offensive line. THAT was the opportunity we had to make a sweeping change in that area.
To be completely fair, the defense has been very good since that decision was made. But is it good enough to overcome how bad the OL has become?
The Giants were probably counting on Flowers-Richburg-Pugh all becoming at least above-average linemen and gambling on the right side of the line. At the time, it looked like Pugh and Richburg would certainly be quality players.
Quote:
The hard truth is, when you pay your QB $20M a year, there is going to be tradeoffs.
I would (and have) point more to the enormous money spent on the defense in 2016. The front office made the choice to go in that direction, IMO to the detriment of the offense and specifically the offensive line. THAT was the opportunity we had to make a sweeping change in that area.
To be completely fair, the defense has been very good since that decision was made. But is it good enough to overcome how bad the OL has become?
Reese could've solidified the OL via the draft the last two years instead of burning picks on luxury players. Instead we were sold a bill of goods on how we've already invested too much in the OL via the draft and/or the prospects weren't that good.
I think we'd feel better about the OL right now w Tunsil or Conklin plus Robinson -- and I'd gladly take that over Apple/Engram at this point.
Quote:
Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw
Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton
I don't Agree with list. The first problem is comparing Eli with this current line to roethlisberger, or Rodgers isn't comparable, those guys have mobility Eli never had. Brady and Peyton is the apt comparison, even then though it's not as simple to just look at numbers, what were their running games like? What was their offensive philosophy, how much and for how long had they been beaten up?
Eli is dealing with being knocked around too much for too long, and I believe it's taken a toll mentally. But he is also dealing with an offense that has no threat outside of Beckham, add this current OL, and the.possibility of questionable play calling and you get the result we got Sunday night.
Multiple things have combined to form this, but to me, it ALL starts up front.
Take note of the time on the clock, where Eli receives the snap, and the position of the OL and DL when he lets the ball go.
Basically, he has 2 seconds to throw the ball. He has to move to his left; he has no area into which to step up and deliver a confident throw. All 9 linemen are at least 4 yards into the Giants' side of the LOS. Dallas is only rushing 4, so 7 defenders are sitting in coverage.
It is under these conditions that Eli has to try to deliver an accurate ball into a tight window.
The conditions you see in this play have been, to my eye, repeated over and over again in Giants games since we went to what has more or less comprised this group of linemen.
Watch the clip. It's unacceptable.
Link - ( New Window )
If you're going to say that Eli's salary prevented us from signing an O-lineman to help out, please name an example. We're currently about 5 million under the cap.
With a Cowboys line he'd probably be fine, anything much less, he'll have problems.
At this point, I'm not sure Eli can get his mind right after several years of malfeasance playing in front of him.
Brady 2015.. His OL sucked.. sucked really bad.. they recognized it and their GM fixed it within a year.. JR is on his 5th year and we are worse this year than when Dhiel and Snee played their last season.. I don't blame Eli.. Its OLs fault but its gotten to the point that even when OL holds up, Eli will screw it up.. 5+ years of taking a beating does that to you..
Take note of the time on the clock, where Eli receives the snap, and the position of the OL and DL when he lets the ball go.
Basically, he has 2 seconds to throw the ball. He has to move to his left; he has no area into which to step up and deliver a confident throw. All 9 linemen are at least 4 yards into the Giants' side of the LOS. Dallas is only rushing 4, so 7 defenders are sitting in coverage.
It is under these conditions that Eli has to try to deliver an accurate ball into a tight window.
The conditions you see in this play have been, to my eye, repeated over and over again in Giants games since we went to what has more or less comprised this group of linemen.
Watch the clip. It's unacceptable. Link - ( New Window )
It's a 3rd and 2 and he threw into coverage. He had two better options to pick up the first down for shorter yardage. This is the type of down Vereen excelled at.
The problem isn't in not having the resources to invest. As I said, in the past 4 years, we have put two 1st rounders and a premium high pick second rounder on our line, AND paid FA's (Schwartz). They just didn't pan out. That's a coaching and/or evaluation problem, not a resources problem.
It's the same Eli.
Take note of the time on the clock, where Eli receives the snap, and the position of the OL and DL when he lets the ball go.
Basically, he has 2 seconds to throw the ball. He has to move to his left; he has no area into which to step up and deliver a confident throw. All 9 linemen are at least 4 yards into the Giants' side of the LOS. Dallas is only rushing 4, so 7 defenders are sitting in coverage.
It is under these conditions that Eli has to try to deliver an accurate ball into a tight window.
The conditions you see in this play have been, to my eye, repeated over and over again in Giants games since we went to what has more or less comprised this group of linemen.
Watch the clip. It's unacceptable. Link - ( New Window )
Sadly...Vereen easily gets the first down there...and more
Im not saying Eli isnt with out fault, but the guy barely played in preseason has a crappy oline thats giving free passes to the Qb, and its only the first game of the year.
So if im putting blame on anyone, im blaming EVERYONE. you need to protect what you have, and these guys need to gel more. if by game 4 we lose them all and nothing has changed then ill start saying its just Eli.
Quote:
Another poster (DonQuixote) posted this GIF in another thread. It's of the 3rd and 2 incompletion over the middle to Marshall. The initial response seemed to be that Eli simply was inaccurate, but I'd encourage every BBIer to watch this play again. I've watched it about 20 times.
Take note of the time on the clock, where Eli receives the snap, and the position of the OL and DL when he lets the ball go.
Basically, he has 2 seconds to throw the ball. He has to move to his left; he has no area into which to step up and deliver a confident throw. All 9 linemen are at least 4 yards into the Giants' side of the LOS. Dallas is only rushing 4, so 7 defenders are sitting in coverage.
It is under these conditions that Eli has to try to deliver an accurate ball into a tight window.
The conditions you see in this play have been, to my eye, repeated over and over again in Giants games since we went to what has more or less comprised this group of linemen.
Watch the clip. It's unacceptable. Link - ( New Window )
Sadly...Vereen easily gets the first down there...and more
To be fair, Eli needed to make a quick decision and throw but he threw into coverage without peeking at his safety valve, Vereen.
Quote:
Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw
Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton
You are delusional if you think any of these guys at any point in their careers have ever had an OL as bad as this...
Not even close with the ineptitude in both run and pass blocking...
Vereen went thru a hole on the play action...he easily would have had the first down...
The right side is absolutely embarrassment. His blindside tackle has awful technique and gets destroyed off the edge by speed rushers. The two guys who are supposed to be solid-- Pugh and Richburg-- get dominated big big powerful bull-rushers.
Of course Eli is jittery back there-- he is going to get killed on every drop back that takes more than 2-2.5 seconds, but he has no idea which of his shitty linemen will be the slickest turnstile.
How many times in that opening game between Brady and Smith did you stop and think "man, these guys are sitting back there for an eternity."
When we played the Packers, how many times did Aaron Rodgers have more than SIX seconds to throw? I remember it happening on multiple drives.
More
I rewatched the #giants vs. #Cowboys and what amazed me most was the difference b/w Dak and Eli's pocket. A good OL is all (after QB obv)
It's clear as day people. Eli is having trouble and is not playing well. If you do not think that its a direct correlation to a bad OL, I dont know what to tell you.
Quote:
Without putting a competent line in front of him it is impossible to say for sure how much of a problem he is. If you're saying he can't be an effective quarterback behind a line this bad, I'd agree that's a problem.
I believe the majority of the problem is the consistently poor offensive line performance. Opposing defenses do not have to respect:
- our running game
- our play action threat
- our deep passing threat
I believe that Eli and McAdoo are operating this offense with one hand tied behind their backs. If our quarterback has two seconds to throw the ball off his back foot into a secondary that is flooded with 7 defenders, something is very wrong.
Perfect response.
Great answer.
Either become a capable running team, or get the OL in order.
Both help a QB immensely.
The Giants after one game appear to have neither.
Your overall point is right. A good QB will have success with a good OL and a bad OL will make it really hard to have good QB play. That being said, Eli is not free of blame. When he has time, he's not getting it done. He's terrible at moving around and creating time. He's not reading the defenses and he's missing easy passes.
I love Eli, but I can't absolve him of fault.
He did not have Marshall...Sean Lee jumped the route if he throws to BM it's possibly a pick 6...he basically threw it away..
Forget about the OL from a pass-blocking standpoint. They're just as bad, if not worse, at run-blocking. And this is with 'continuity' along the OLine.
This is one of the worst OLines assembled in team history. Take a bow, Jerry..
All falls back on the front office, HC, and a really bad OL.
Especially for the WCO.
It also be Dallas kicked our butt because they are real too.
Eli getting beat up as he has for many a season still shocked he is still standing at times. Like Simms will not be appreciated until he is gone.
If the Steelers drafted him instead of Ben he would have had four or five rings.
Quote:
Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw
Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton
When did Peyton win behind a medicore line??
Eli has never had a line this bad. I think if you're one of those people that automatically assumed the two worst offensive tackles in football were going to improve this year, or you're one of those people that thinks a blocking TE and a blocking receiver( Marshall) were going to fix the line... you're now going to shift blame to Eli because you are "shocked".
Nope. It's still the line folks. The number two issue is the system. We are basically running a vanilla' down version of the west coast. It's 2017. Teams know how to plan for that by now.
Ummm, you assume that arm strength is the only thing to look for in the down turn of QB. Yeah, NO! Eli is not the same QB. He falls down constantly. He throws some very off target passes that let his receiver do nothing but hope to make the catch. There is a whole lot more going on here. Acceptance of BS play and sorry excuses have become the norm lately. This I have to play better sounds great but if you don't play better it means nothing.
Quote:
That impacts every decision that is made when it comes to FA. The priority was justly the defense. But were there any FAs signed in the past two years who could have helped on the Oline? Most likely.
If you're going to say that Eli's salary prevented us from signing an O-lineman to help out, please name an example. We're currently about 5 million under the cap.
Link - ( New Window )
The offensive scheme sucks as does the playcalling and neither has a chance with Jerry's Kids on the o-line.
Quote:
In comment 13597618 UberAlias said:
Quote:
That impacts every decision that is made when it comes to FA. The priority was justly the defense. But were there any FAs signed in the past two years who could have helped on the Oline? Most likely.
If you're going to say that Eli's salary prevented us from signing an O-lineman to help out, please name an example. We're currently about 5 million under the cap.
How about doing what the Vikings did? They signed starter at both tackle spots and looking good. Link - ( New Window )
With the frequency that Eli checks at the line, how do any of us know what the true play call is?
Are you serious with this post? You know, it is football where they actually hit each other.
Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.
When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?
EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.
As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.
McAdoo or Eli?
Who's fault is it. I don't think both's heads will roll. OBJ's contract is looming, the O-Line needs to be rebuilt. Still need a stud RB. As crazy as it is to say, it doesn't seem far fetched for the Giants to cut Eli, let Geno vs. Webb duke it out at QB and free up all that $$$ to fix the O at large.
This would allow patience with McAdoo which is what they always prefer to do with HC and front office. Trusting evaluations, good human beings, etc.
Hmmmm... are the 32's dupes?
Im sorry, but did you actually watch the Seattle game at all? Wilson was atrocious. 14/27 158 yards 0 tds 0 ints 1 Fumble and 33 QBR. Their offense was EVERY BIT as much of a cluterfuck as ours was. Totally inept and they had all of their players minus Rawls.
A lobbed pass into the middle of the football field? That has INT written all over it.
Quote:
Clear as day to see that we have a shit OL but we're not the only team dealing with that. Take Seattle as an example, you could argue that their OL has been worse, yet their offense hasn't been the complete clusterfuck that ours has been. As is clear by this thread, there is a vocal contingent that wants to place blame everywhere but at the QB position. The fact is, Eli is being paid franchise QB money and he isn't performing anywhere close to that level. He's been almost as bad as this OL and with the amount of money he's being paid, he's not a guy that should have to be propped up just to even get a mediocre product out on the field. He should be elevating the offense despite its weaknesses. I don't believe he's done physically, however I'm afraid he's showing signs of significant mental regression. He's got the yips, he's shellshocked. He needs to be better.
Im sorry, but did you actually watch the Seattle game at all? Wilson was atrocious. 14/27 158 yards 0 tds 0 ints 1 Fumble and 33 QBR. Their offense was EVERY BIT as much of a cluterfuck as ours was. Totally inept and they had all of their players minus Rawls.
Everything I'm referencing extends back to last year. Our problems extend beyond one game.
Quote:
neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.
Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.
When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?
EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.
As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.
I think a lot of what the unhappiness with Eli boils down to is that if you're paying a QB $20m+ per year, you shouldn't also need everything else around him to be in tip top shape in order for the results not to go to shit.
Even with the OL being what it is, a lot of posters think a team simply needs to get better QB play for $20m. I am one of them.
I don't think anyone expects Pro Bowl stats with the type of OL play Eli has had in front of him of late. There is also a massive chasm between pro bowl stats and Eli's stats over the recent past.
Quote:
In comment 13597758 xman said:
Quote:
neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.
Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.
When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?
EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.
As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.
I think a lot of what the unhappiness with Eli boils down to is that if you're paying a QB $20m+ per year, you shouldn't also need everything else around him to be in tip top shape in order for the results not to go to shit.
Even with the OL being what it is, a lot of posters think a team simply needs to get better QB play for $20m. I am one of them.
I don't think anyone expects Pro Bowl stats with the type of OL play Eli has had in front of him of late. There is also a massive chasm between pro bowl stats and Eli's stats over the recent past.
This about sums up my sentiments.
Quote:
In comment 13597758 xman said:
Quote:
neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.
Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.
When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?
EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.
As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.
I think a lot of what the unhappiness with Eli boils down to is that if you're paying a QB $20m+ per year, you shouldn't also need everything else around him to be in tip top shape in order for the results not to go to shit.
Even with the OL being what it is, a lot of posters think a team simply needs to get better QB play for $20m. I am one of them.
I don't think anyone expects Pro Bowl stats with the type of OL play Eli has had in front of him of late. There is also a massive chasm between pro bowl stats and Eli's stats over the recent past.
He threw for over 4k yards with 26 tds and 16 ints. Those arent bad stats.
Quote:
In comment 13597836 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13597758 xman said:
Quote:
neither is Eli's accuracy or mobility.
Eli's been the quarterback here since 2004. 200 games.
When has he ever been mobile? How many times has it been apparent that his quality of play falls if he is forced to throw the ball off schedule and off rhythm? How many times has it been made clear that his passing quality goes down if his fundamentals aren't sharp?
EVERYONE knows what type of player he is. That's what makes the decay of the offensive line all the more vexing.
As Eli aged our investment in the offensive line should have been, IMO, the #1 priority on the team. It has not been.
I think a lot of what the unhappiness with Eli boils down to is that if you're paying a QB $20m+ per year, you shouldn't also need everything else around him to be in tip top shape in order for the results not to go to shit.
Even with the OL being what it is, a lot of posters think a team simply needs to get better QB play for $20m. I am one of them.
I don't think anyone expects Pro Bowl stats with the type of OL play Eli has had in front of him of late. There is also a massive chasm between pro bowl stats and Eli's stats over the recent past.
He threw for over 4k yards with 26 tds and 16 ints. Those arent bad stats.
And the 2 years before that he threw 65 tds to 28 ints. Where are these bad stats you are looking at?
In any case, the specific stats were not the main point of what I posted.
In any case, the specific stats were not the main point of what I posted.
Come next year 20+ mill for a QB will be middle of the pack. Just look at what a guy like Stafford got and what Cousins will get next year. Neither guy even has a playoff win. You need to get over the money he is being paid, because that is run of the mill for a decent QB.
You're getting too hung up on the comment I made in the last part about the stats.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
They aren't very good, either.
In any case, the specific stats were not the main point of what I posted.
Come next year 20+ mill for a QB will be middle of the pack. Just look at what a guy like Stafford got and what Cousins will get next year. Neither guy even has a playoff win. You need to get over the money he is being paid, because that is run of the mill for a decent QB.
Both of the QBs you mention have been head and shoulders better for the last 15-20 games.
You're getting too hung up on the comment I made in the last part about the stats.
Im not disagreeing about his play, I am mearly stating that there is a reason for it. All the Eli "apologists" are pointing out the reason for it. There is tangible evidence everywhere that this line has been a bottom 5 line for the past 7 years. What other QB has had to deal with that for not only the past 15-20 games, but the past 50?
Quote:
In comment 13597868 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
They aren't very good, either.
In any case, the specific stats were not the main point of what I posted.
Come next year 20+ mill for a QB will be middle of the pack. Just look at what a guy like Stafford got and what Cousins will get next year. Neither guy even has a playoff win. You need to get over the money he is being paid, because that is run of the mill for a decent QB.
Both of the QBs you mention have been head and shoulders better for the last 15-20 games.
Cousins also has one of the best LT's in the game and has a MUCH better OL.
How do you get rid of a HOF QB who is expensive and older? Maybe by not letting him succeed by giving him no protection or even God forbid get banged around so much he just retires or worse.
I put nothing beyond anybody these days. I have seen too much as things have radically changed in my lifetime. I may be crazy paranoid, but there are too few Wellington Maras around anywhere anymore.
I expect a nasty response, OK maybe I deserve it, but its an explanation of facts that most of us would agree on (IBE), why neglect the O line for a decade?
Quote:
In comment 13597531 djstat said:
Quote:
Who has performed at a winning level with such a mediocre line? He is jittery because he had no time to throw
Rothlisberger
Rodgers
Brady
Peyton
I don't Agree with list. The first problem is comparing Eli with this current line to roethlisberger, or Rodgers isn't comparable, those guys have mobility Eli never had. Brady and Peyton is the apt comparison, even then though it's not as simple to just look at numbers, what were their running games like? What was their offensive philosophy, how much and for how long had they been beaten up?
Eli is dealing with being knocked around too much for too long, and I believe it's taken a toll mentally. But he is also dealing with an offense that has no threat outside of Beckham, add this current OL, and the.possibility of questionable play calling and you get the result we got Sunday night.
Multiple things have combined to form this, but to me, it ALL starts up front.
You hit the nail in the head. Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.
As I've said before, cut Jerry. He can't run block or pass block. Short term, I'd put Wheeler at LT, Jones at RG and Flowers at RT. And yes, EF will have issues at RT...if it's too tough for him, he can be LG and move Pugh to RT. This line will still suck at run blocking, but it won't be worst than the current starting line. At least Eli will have a shot at completing passes.
Long term, if the team collapses the first half, then the Front Office should explore what they can get for Eli. I'm not in favor of trading him, but even if you devote the next two drafts to just Offensive Linemen, it's likely too late in Eli's career to make a difference. It will take a few years for them to develop.
Trading Eli should get some badly needed high draft picks, even at his age, for a team that has a closing window (Arizona, for example...you know Palmer is due for his annual injury. Denver might think they are close enough to make it worth getting Eli, or even Jacksonville might think Eli puts them over the hump).
If you're against trading Eli, are you really confident in this Front Office getting him the help he needs? And no, I don't think this happens because I think the owners wouldn't allow it, even if it might be in the team's long term interest.
Quote:
Nobody is complaining about 2014 Eli right now. We're talking about the last 15-20 games in which the offense's results have been miserable, and Eli's play has been somewhere between poor and fair.
You're getting too hung up on the comment I made in the last part about the stats.
Im not disagreeing about his play, I am mearly stating that there is a reason for it. All the Eli "apologists" are pointing out the reason for it. There is tangible evidence everywhere that this line has been a bottom 5 line for the past 7 years. What other QB has had to deal with that for not only the past 15-20 games, but the past 50?
Sure, that isn't lost on me. I think we just disagree. You think that the play of the OL excuses what we've seen from Eli. I think it's a factor but that he still should be better than he's been.
I like Eli. I'm certainly not throwing all of it on him. I just don't think he's very good right now. Better OL play would help a ton, but he also needs to be a lot better.
Eli will finish this contract as the highest paid player in NFL history. It goes both ways.
and what enabled Lee to do that?
Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.
I guess that settles it. This guy DEFINITELY knows what he's watching.
How do you get rid of a HOF QB who is expensive and older? Maybe by not letting him succeed by giving him no protection or even God forbid get banged around so much he just retires or worse.
I put nothing beyond anybody these days. I have seen too much as things have radically changed in my lifetime. I may be crazy paranoid, but there are too few Wellington Maras around anywhere anymore.
I expect a nasty response, OK maybe I deserve it, but its an explanation of facts that most of us would agree on (IBE), why neglect the O line for a decade?
Quote:
Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.
and what enabled Lee to do that?
Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.
Do you really think Qb's throw passes without looking?
Dallas, not worried about the outside flooded the middle of the field with defenders, do you really think manning should throw blind over the middle?
Also you aren't giving Sean Lee any credit, Lee is.an exceptional lb, both run and coverage
Quote:
In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:
Quote:
Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.
and what enabled Lee to do that?
Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.
Do you really think Qb's throw passes without looking?
Dallas, not worried about the outside flooded the middle of the field with defenders, do you really think manning should throw blind over the middle?
Also you aren't giving Sean Lee any credit, Lee is.an exceptional lb, both run and coverage
Lee is an excellent player.
Eli also stared down Marshall on that play. NBC showed a great replay of Lee looking directly at Manning looking directly at Marshall for about two full seconds.
One play, I'm not going to kill Eli for it. I just thought it was an awful example of Eli being a victim of outside factors.
Is that even possible based on where he was, the rushers and others in coverage or are you saying that based on nothing?
Quote:
Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.
and what enabled Lee to do that?
Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.
Did you talk to Sean Lee? What are you basing that on?
Eli's been a great QB. Coughlin was a great coach. Nothing lasts forever and it is unfortunate that Reese gambled on an aging QB without taking the precaution of at least trying to upgrade a horrible line.
Quote:
In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:
Quote:
Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.
and what enabled Lee to do that?
Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.
Did you talk to Sean Lee? What are you basing that on?
The replay that they showed during the game that showed exactly what I described in my last post.
The problem is more than one thing.
The problem is more than one thing.
You're absolutely right, but that's not what I did. Someone used that play as an example of Eli being in a shitty situation or hung out to dry by his team/offense/whatever, and I pointed out that it was a bad example.
Quote:
In comment 13597898 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13597888 DisgruntledGiantsfan said:
Quote:
Just to add, watch how Sean Lee drops under esth Marshall's route. Eli has nowhere to go with that ball.
and what enabled Lee to do that?
Eli's eyes. He telegraphed it all the way. He was not the victim on that play.
Did you talk to Sean Lee? What are you basing that on?
The replay that they showed during the game that showed exactly what I described in my last post.
You saw a video of the play...You don't know what Sean Lee was thinking, what Eli was thinking and I doubt the view was close enough on both sides to show what both of their eyes were doing. Absent an interview of both, you don't know what happened. You'd also have to have a view of his eyes throughout the whole play to know where else he looked.
Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.
Quote:
I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.
Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.
Nothing you wanted to hear, at least. I'm sure the guys on the broadcast were also just pissing in the wind when they pointed it out with replay evidence.
Either way, it doesn't totally invalidate the point you were trying to make. It just wasn't a good example of Eli the Battered QB who gets no help.
Quote:
In comment 13597972 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.
Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.
Nothing you wanted to hear, at least. I'm sure the guys on the broadcast were also just pissing in the wind when they pointed it out with replay evidence.
Either way, it doesn't totally invalidate the point you were trying to make. It just wasn't a good example of Eli the Battered QB who gets no help.
You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.
You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.
Quote:
You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.
You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.
Whatever dude. Just look at all the "this offensive line needs to be fixed" stuff that's going around. Talking about who's available or who we can trade to fix this line. It's an awful Oline. Period. Any QB behind this line will hear footsteps and fail. But keep on saying it's on Eli, you sound like an idiot. The only positive is that your not alone. A lot of dumb on BBI lately.
Quote:
You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.
You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.
In case you missed this piece. See the link. But yup it's Eli.
Link - ( New Window )
The NFLPA needs to agree that more practice time is needed or the offensive product suffers.
The NFLPA needs to agree that more practice time is needed or the offensive product suffers.
A union's job is to look after it's people. It's the league's job to look after the product, and they don't care either. Or else they would never have agreed to it.
Quote:
In comment 13598011 map7711 said:
Quote:
You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.
You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.
Whatever dude. Just look at all the "this offensive line needs to be fixed" stuff that's going around. Talking about who's available or who we can trade to fix this line. It's an awful Oline. Period. Any QB behind this line will hear footsteps and fail. But keep on saying it's on Eli, you sound like an idiot. The only positive is that your not alone. A lot of dumb on BBI lately.
Nobody is throwing it all on Eli. Clearly the offensive line blows. That doesn't absolve Eli of all and any blame. He also needs to play better. That's all anyone is saying.
The suggestion that Eli isn't above criticism really takes some people to their dark, emotional, reactive place.
Quote:
In comment 13598027 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13598011 map7711 said:
Quote:
You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.
You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.
Whatever dude. Just look at all the "this offensive line needs to be fixed" stuff that's going around. Talking about who's available or who we can trade to fix this line. It's an awful Oline. Period. Any QB behind this line will hear footsteps and fail. But keep on saying it's on Eli, you sound like an idiot. The only positive is that your not alone. A lot of dumb on BBI lately.
Nobody is throwing it all on Eli. Clearly the offensive line blows. That doesn't absolve Eli of all and any blame. He also needs to play better. That's all anyone is saying.
The suggestion that Eli isn't above criticism really takes some people to their dark, emotional, reactive place.
What you have to remember the Giants won two SBs against the best QB that ever lived and made him look average. In 07 that was the most prolific scoring team in the history of the NFL with the best QB ever and we made look average. How? We put constant pressure. He heard footsteps and felt that pressure. They scored 14 points. 14!!! Then we did the same thing to him again in '11. The point is even the greatest QB with constant pressure will look bad. Give Eli some time, he will win. Period. He's done it before and will do it again. And I don't believe in the he's regressed theories either. Because the PO game last year he played well. That was the last game last year! He still has it and if we can fix this line somehow, he will prove all the naysayers wrong as he has done his whole career.
Quote:
In comment 13597972 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.
Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.
Nothing you wanted to hear, at least. I'm sure the guys on the broadcast were also just pissing in the wind when they pointed it out with replay evidence.
Either way, it doesn't totally invalidate the point you were trying to make. It just wasn't a good example of Eli the Battered QB who gets no help.
For starters I didn't make any of those points. You know as well as I do that if BBI disagreed with what the broadcasters said you wouldn't be touting them as evidence of anything. If you want to prove that, pull an interview from Lee on the play or get the coaches film. Beyond that your drawing conclusions based a video clip and what the broadcasters told you.
Eli never was known for making plays with his legs.
Quote:
In comment 13598011 map7711 said:
Quote:
You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.
You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.
In case you missed this piece. See the link. But yup it's Eli. Link - ( New Window )
If Bart Scott is your backup, you probably shouldn't be calling out anyone for their football IQ.
Quote:
In comment 13597982 JOrthman said:
Quote:
In comment 13597972 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
I know nothing, and you sound like a complete jackass.
Who knows, that may have been the case, but you've provided nothing to prove that.
Nothing you wanted to hear, at least. I'm sure the guys on the broadcast were also just pissing in the wind when they pointed it out with replay evidence.
Either way, it doesn't totally invalidate the point you were trying to make. It just wasn't a good example of Eli the Battered QB who gets no help.
For starters I didn't make any of those points. You know as well as I do that if BBI disagreed with what the broadcasters said you wouldn't be touting them as evidence of anything. If you want to prove that, pull an interview from Lee on the play or get the coaches film. Beyond that your drawing conclusions based a video clip and what the broadcasters told you.
You can pound sand with your "go find an interview" bullshit. You go watch the replay that was smacked right in the middle of the damn game that you watched. And then show the same clip to 100 people. 99 of them will tell you that the QB locked on to the receiver early and the LB read him. 1 of them will as you to go find an interview of the LB.
For fuck's sake.
Any QB in the league would look like shit behind this joke of an offensive line stupid ass Jerry Reese keeps failing to restock with good talent. All of his moves have been too little too late out of desperation. His draft choices have not panned out and his FA signings have been complete failures.
Any QB would struggle. You are paying Eli 20 million per because he has proven what he can do. You don't pay someone to improvise, you pay them to run your system properly. Eli is one of the most qualified QBs in the league and if you think someone else would have more success you are kidding yourself. In fact, if Reese continues to do nothing with the line Eli should probably hold out for more money.
Any QB in the league would look like shit behind this joke of an offensive line stupid ass Jerry Reese keeps failing to restock with good talent. All of his moves have been too little too late out of desperation. His draft choices have not panned out and his FA signings have been complete failures.
Any QB would struggle. You are paying Eli 20 million per because he has proven what he can do. You don't pay someone to improvise, you pay them to run your system properly. Eli is one of the most qualified QBs in the league and if you think someone else would have more success you are kidding yourself. In fact, if Reese continues to do nothing with the line Eli should probably hold out for more money.
Amen.
Any QB in the league would look like shit behind this joke of an offensive line stupid ass Jerry Reese keeps failing to restock with good talent. All of his moves have been too little too late out of desperation. His draft choices have not panned out and his FA signings have been complete failures.
Any QB would struggle. You are paying Eli 20 million per because he has proven what he can do. You don't pay someone to improvise, you pay them to run your system properly. Eli is one of the most qualified QBs in the league and if you think someone else would have more success you are kidding yourself. In fact, if Reese continues to do nothing with the line Eli should probably hold out for more money.
Let him hold out for more money. He's already on track to be the HIGHEST PAID PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL. He's not even the best QB of his era by a wide margin, and yet he's going to end his career as the highest paid player the league has ever had. Hold out for more money? Try not locking onto your first read first.
Oh, sorry Jerry. Should we not be discussing football on a football message board? Is that not what you thunk we were here for?
Not career earnings.
the ol is and was horrendous but if you're a $20 mil qb you have TO perform which he hasn't lately on a consistent basis.period.
Cool, you already got a headstart on remembering him fondly. Now if you wouldn't mind taking your circle jerk off to the side, maybe everyone else can get back to discussing the present and future.
So, if PFF is anywhere near correct in the way they score individual performances, the running backs never got started. Should they have continued to run the ball? Should they have given the ball to Darkwa at least 10 carries?
If PFF rankings are correct, it takes it down to play calling. Jam the run, forcing the Giants to pass. Jam the middle of the field on pass plays, and there's nowhere to throw the ball in less than 3 seconds. Unless I went into a coma, which was likely, the only pass to stretch the field was a useless overthrow to Marshall that wasn't close to anyone playing football.
It was good to see some new formations, but when a team is averaging 5.8 yards a completion, which there wasn't enough of those either, and almost every one of them inside the hashmarks, it'll make a long night for any NFL team.
My only suggestion is to hope for everyone to get their game together, especially the run game. McGoo needs to admit to himself he's not an offensive genius and pass the baton. Give the ball to the hungry guy- 3 carries and he averaged 4.7 yards a carry. 3 x 4.7 = 14.1 yards. We could have had some 1st downs and taken pressure off of Eli.
Link - ( New Window )
Eli gets paid $20M per year. He's being treated more than fairly regardless of fan criticism.
Quote:
In comment 13598027 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13598011 map7711 said:
Quote:
You have no clue my man. Have no idea what your are saying and no clue on what you are watching. Go cheer for the Jets. Please.
You're doing a tremendous job of contributing to the discussion around here. Keep up the good work.
In case you missed this piece. See the link. But yup it's Eli. Link - ( New Window )
If Bart Scott is your backup, you probably shouldn't be calling out anyone for their football IQ.
Yea I'll listen to an ex NFL player over some dude on a fan site everyday.
Quote:
Eli deserves better fans.
Eli gets paid $20M per year. He's being treated more than fairly regardless of fan criticism.
Money is irrelevant, fans don't pay his salary. In my view Manning deserves more grace than what he's getting.
Frontrunning trash.
Quote:
In comment 13598216 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Eli deserves better fans.
Eli gets paid $20M per year. He's being treated more than fairly regardless of fan criticism.
Money is irrelevant, fans don't pay his salary. In my view Manning deserves more grace than what he's getting.
Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the criticism comes with the territory and is related to the money in two ways: 1) that level of money is only afforded because of the sport's popularity, and 2) Eli hasn't played like a $20MM QB since at least 2015.
Now, you can say that the fans don't pay the salary, and even leaving aside the correlation of fan popularity making that salary possible (and by extension, funding it), but the reality is if you feel, as I do, that Eli hasn't been playing well enough to justify his salary over the past year and appears to be in decline, it's a worthwhile question to ask whether he - and his salary - are hamstringing the team from improving in any other areas.
And the point I made earlier (or maybe on one of the other myriad Eli threads) about Eli being on track to finish this contract having earned more money than any other player in NFL history is this: has he, at any point in his career, been the best player in the NFL? Has he ever been the best QB in the NFL? Yet he will have earned more money than any of his contemporaries. How much better could any of our teams been over the years had Eli not squeezed every penny from the Giants? Is it a coincidence that the Patriots have had an extended dynasty while Brady has taken less money?
If Eli needs OL help, then let him give back some money to fund those acquisitions. Otherwise, are we supposed to mortgage the future of the team and retaining the young talent on the roster to make risky moves by trading picks and taking on contracts of aging OL veterans?
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't think a ton of sympathy (or grace, as you put it) is necessary for a player that will have made over $200MM over the course of his career in a zero sum salary cap environment where every dollar that he earned by definition did not go to any other roster reinforcements. He has to be able to overcome some shortcomings by virtue of his salary IMO, and if he can't, that's worthy of some criticism.
Look at 2011, running game was dead last in the league, and Eli had his best season. Yes, a good running game will help ANY QB, Eli is no exception, but he has been very good with poor OL play before.
If you watch the all 22 tape, the OL is getting beat somewhere on every play. I don't know PFF's criteria, but I have to wonder what they were looking at. The line play was horrid.
If everyone blames the OL why do so many on here, who don't know the assignments or internals of the game, rush to blame Eli? I think the Papacast is great where Diehl is ripping the line. I side with those guys who have played. If Eli is getting skiddish as the game goes on, well he likely should with the lousy line. Again, Brady was skiddish last week too after his line failed.
Without pass protection no QB can function.
If everyone blames the OL why do so many on here, who don't know the assignments or internals of the game, rush to blame Eli? I think the Papacast is great where Diehl is ripping the line. I side with those guys who have played. If Eli is getting skiddish as the game goes on, well he likely should with the lousy line. Again, Brady was skiddish last week too after his line failed.
Without pass protection no QB can function.
Exactly, the problem is this O-line isn't just NFL bad or even college bad they are high school bad at this point, they can't even handle a basic stunt!!!
Quote:
In comment 13598223 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13598216 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Eli deserves better fans.
Eli gets paid $20M per year. He's being treated more than fairly regardless of fan criticism.
Money is irrelevant, fans don't pay his salary. In my view Manning deserves more grace than what he's getting.
Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the criticism comes with the territory and is related to the money in two ways: 1) that level of money is only afforded because of the sport's popularity, and 2) Eli hasn't played like a $20MM QB since at least 2015.
Now, you can say that the fans don't pay the salary, and even leaving aside the correlation of fan popularity making that salary possible (and by extension, funding it), but the reality is if you feel, as I do, that Eli hasn't been playing well enough to justify his salary over the past year and appears to be in decline, it's a worthwhile question to ask whether he - and his salary - are hamstringing the team from improving in any other areas.
And the point I made earlier (or maybe on one of the other myriad Eli threads) about Eli being on track to finish this contract having earned more money than any other player in NFL history is this: has he, at any point in his career, been the best player in the NFL? Has he ever been the best QB in the NFL? Yet he will have earned more money than any of his contemporaries. How much better could any of our teams been over the years had Eli not squeezed every penny from the Giants? Is it a coincidence that the Patriots have had an extended dynasty while Brady has taken less money?
If Eli needs OL help, then let him give back some money to fund those acquisitions. Otherwise, are we supposed to mortgage the future of the team and retaining the young talent on the roster to make risky moves by trading picks and taking on contracts of aging OL veterans?
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't think a ton of sympathy (or grace, as you put it) is necessary for a player that will have made over $200MM over the course of his career in a zero sum salary cap environment where every dollar that he earned by definition did not go to any other roster reinforcements. He has to be able to overcome some shortcomings by virtue of his salary IMO, and if he can't, that's worthy of some criticism.
Interesting point on Eli giving money back, he could easily have offered to restructure ala Brady in order to bring in some OL help. Even though his wife isn't making as much as Brady's (who's does?) he could have looked at it as an investment in his health and welfare. Plus he would still get the money down the road...
Last year, the NFL MVP was Matt Ryan. According to the writers, he was the "best" QB last year, or best performing QB.
If Eli is the problem, then surely Matt Ryan on this Giants team would make the offense hum. Afterall, he's the MVP.
So with this offensive line that cannot open up running lanes or push the defensive line back, and with this offensive line that gives up sacks and cannot maintain a pocket against 4! down linemen, how would Matt Ryan make this offense a success? Whene Matt Ryan is under duress immediately not knowing who the worst OL is going to be on any particular play, and he has to quickly get rid of the ball and throw against 6 and 7 defenders in coverage because the defense does not have to worry about a run or long-developing plays, where is he going with the ball?
What would Matt Ryan do in this situation that would be different from Eli?
Last year, the NFL MVP was Matt Ryan. According to the writers, he was the "best" QB last year, or best performing QB.
If Eli is the problem, then surely Matt Ryan on this Giants team would make the offense hum. Afterall, he's the MVP.
So with this offensive line that cannot open up running lanes or push the defensive line back, and with this offensive line that gives up sacks and cannot maintain a pocket against 4! down linemen, how would Matt Ryan make this offense a success? Whene Matt Ryan is under duress immediately not knowing who the worst OL is going to be on any particular play, and he has to quickly get rid of the ball and throw against 6 and 7 defenders in coverage because the defense does not have to worry about a run or long-developing plays, where is he going with the ball?
What would Matt Ryan do in this situation that would be different from Eli?
more mobility...
The pats have built a money machine around him with businesses and low rent per square foot with his shops etc.
It might be on the salary cap / football books as less. But Brady is not taking less money.
If everyone blames the OL why do so many on here, who don't know the assignments or internals of the game, rush to blame Eli? I think the Papacast is great where Diehl is ripping the line. I side with those guys who have played. If Eli is getting skiddish as the game goes on, well he likely should with the lousy line. Again, Brady was skiddish last week too after his line failed.
Without pass protection no QB can function.
The OL is not without blame, so they definitely deserve to be called out. The OL is the easy scapegoat, and a lot of these analysts don't do any actual work, they just parrot each other. But if you haven't read any analysts positing that Eli bears some responsibility, I'm sorry but you're living in an echo chamber.
The pats have built a money machine around him with businesses and low rent per square foot with his shops etc.
It might be on the salary cap / football books as less. But Brady is not taking less money.
I couldn't agree more. But the point is, Brady is counting less against the cap than any other established franchise QB. At what point has Eli earned enough? He's already right at the $200MM level - when does he start to care about his legacy as much as his fans do?
Of course it wouldn't. How do you think the two of them ended up #1 and #2 in the NFL's all-time earning's list. But it doesn't make roster construction any easier, and it shouldn't earn any sympathy for a weaker supporting cast.
Last year, the NFL MVP was Matt Ryan. According to the writers, he was the "best" QB last year, or best performing QB.
If Eli is the problem, then surely Matt Ryan on this Giants team would make the offense hum. Afterall, he's the MVP.
So with this offensive line that cannot open up running lanes or push the defensive line back, and with this offensive line that gives up sacks and cannot maintain a pocket against 4! down linemen, how would Matt Ryan make this offense a success? Whene Matt Ryan is under duress immediately not knowing who the worst OL is going to be on any particular play, and he has to quickly get rid of the ball and throw against 6 and 7 defenders in coverage because the defense does not have to worry about a run or long-developing plays, where is he going with the ball?
What would Matt Ryan do in this situation that would be different from Eli?
Would you mind if I posited a different view? Maybe the team isn't constructed to have a "franchise" QB in terms of dollars. With the amount of money already committed to the defense, the amount that will have to be reserved for upcoming contracts for young talent like Beckham and Collins and the need to boost the offensive line, something has to give. We saw this team win 11 games last year with a middling offense. Maybe it's just time to reconsider the importance of the QB to the construction of the roster. I believe that's why the Giants drafted Webb this past year, and I believe that if this season goes down the tubes, they'll double down with another franchise QB prospect.
He has gotten sacked less by almost half since the arrival of McAdoo compared to under TC/KG. Try again.
Quote:
For some of you Eli is the easy scapegoat. Just because you can view the game from your couch you can apparently ignore the pass rush. I'm sure the view is different from behind center.
He has gotten sacked less by almost half since the arrival of McAdoo compared to under TC/KG. Try again.
Quote:
In comment 13598707 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
For some of you Eli is the easy scapegoat. Just because you can view the game from your couch you can apparently ignore the pass rush. I'm sure the view is different from behind center.
He has gotten sacked less by almost half since the arrival of McAdoo compared to under TC/KG. Try again.
Yes but the big plays are down and the offense is producing 3 and outs at an alarming rate.
Absolutely correct. The offensive system is the same. The playcaller is the same. What has changed?
Eli's age.
I couldn't agree more. But the point is, Brady is counting less against the cap than any other established franchise QB. At what point has Eli earned enough? He's already right at the $200MM level - when does he start to care about his legacy as much as his fans do?
Should he play for free? Sure, Brady takes less, maybe Eli should start his own nutrition company and have the Giants spend millions on it like the Pats do with Brady's TB12.
Quote:
I couldn't agree more. But the point is, Brady is counting less against the cap than any other established franchise QB. At what point has Eli earned enough? He's already right at the $200MM level - when does he start to care about his legacy as much as his fans do?
Should he play for free? Sure, Brady takes less, maybe Eli should start his own nutrition company and have the Giants spend millions on it like the Pats do with Brady's TB12.
Side note - unrelated to whether or not he's an issue or should take less - if other teams are doing this, then the Giants should absolutely go the shady route. Why the hell not?
Quote:
I couldn't agree more. But the point is, Brady is counting less against the cap than any other established franchise QB. At what point has Eli earned enough? He's already right at the $200MM level - when does he start to care about his legacy as much as his fans do?
Should he play for free? Sure, Brady takes less, maybe Eli should start his own nutrition company and have the Giants spend millions on it like the Pats do with Brady's TB12.
There are a lot of dollars between free and $20MM. Maybe Eli should care as much about his legacy as his fans do and take a little less to afford some OL help. Could Eli play for $14MM like Brady and give the Giants a chance to sign a Whitworth? Of course he could.
But he won't. Mannings don't play for a penny less than full price.
There are a lot of dollars between free and $20MM. Maybe Eli should care as much about his legacy as his fans do and take a little less to afford some OL help. Could Eli play for $14MM like Brady and give the Giants a chance to sign a Whitworth? Of course he could.
But he won't. Mannings don't play for a penny less than full price.
He can't. The CBA won't allow for players to take less money on an existing contract. They can restructure, which Eli has already done, and he can only do it once within an existing agreement. Your hatred of the Mannings is a little odd coming from a supposed Giant fan.
Quote:
There are a lot of dollars between free and $20MM. Maybe Eli should care as much about his legacy as his fans do and take a little less to afford some OL help. Could Eli play for $14MM like Brady and give the Giants a chance to sign a Whitworth? Of course he could.
But he won't. Mannings don't play for a penny less than full price.
He can't. The CBA won't allow for players to take less money on an existing contract. They can restructure, which Eli has already done, and he can only do it once within an existing agreement. Your hatred of the Mannings is a little odd coming from a supposed Giant fan.
He has not restructured during this contract. He has only restructured once in his career - in 2012.
I don't hate the Mannings; I'm just pointing out a well-known truth, which is that they don't take a penny less than full price.
As for the CBA, tell that to JT Thomas and Dwayne Harris.
Quote:
For some of you Eli is the easy scapegoat. Just because you can view the game from your couch you can apparently ignore the pass rush. I'm sure the view is different from behind center.
He has gotten sacked less by almost half since the arrival of McAdoo compared to under TC/KG. Try again.
You guys want Eli to be someone he's not. And it seems that the team does as well, because for 5 years they haven't upgraded the OL.
Where are you getting your sack numbers because that is simply not the case.
He's looking at one year of the TC/KG era, 2013, when Eli was sacked 39 times, by FAR the most in his career. Since McAdoo has taken over (even as OC), Eli sack numbers have been in line with his career numbers. Don't expect fair accounting from GD.
Quote:
Where are you getting your sack numbers because that is simply not the case.
He's looking at one year of the TC/KG era, 2013, when Eli was sacked 39 times, by FAR the most in his career. Since McAdoo has taken over (even as OC), Eli sack numbers have been in line with his career numbers. Don't expect fair accounting from GD.
One year? Try 9 years. Sorry if a spreadsheet is confusing.
Quote:
In comment 13598822 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Where are you getting your sack numbers because that is simply not the case.
He's looking at one year of the TC/KG era, 2013, when Eli was sacked 39 times, by FAR the most in his career. Since McAdoo has taken over (even as OC), Eli sack numbers have been in line with his career numbers. Don't expect fair accounting from GD.
One year? Try 9 years. Sorry if a spreadsheet is confusing.
Here's the data:
According to Football Reference here are the actual sack numbers for Eli's career: 13, 28, 25, 27, 27, 30, 16, 28, 19, 39// McAdoo era: 28, 27, 21. Interestingly, Eli was sacked 25.2 times per season during the Gilbride era and has been sacked 25 times per year during the McAdoo era.
Although these calculations were performed with pen, paper and my trust Radio Shack Dual Powered Solar Calculaor, there does not appear to have been any halving of the sack totals as you asserted.
According to Football Reference here are the actual sack numbers for Eli's career: 13, 28, 25, 27, 27, 30, 16, 28, 19, 39// McAdoo era: 28, 27, 21. Interestingly, Eli was sacked 25.2 times per season during the Gilbride era and has been sacked 25 times per year during the McAdoo era.
Although these calculations were performed with pen, paper and my trust Radio Shack Dual Powered Solar Calculaor, there does not appear to have been any halving of the sack totals as you asserted.
First of all, remove 2004 as he only played 9 games and started 7. Secondly, you're right, I didn't normalize the delta against 100%. So when it shows 100%, that's effectively flat. I was picking up the spreadsheet from the "Eli washed up? Not by the numbers!" thread and just re-parsed the data.
Quote:
how does going from an average of 27 to 26 yield a delta of 100%?
According to Football Reference here are the actual sack numbers for Eli's career: 13, 28, 25, 27, 27, 30, 16, 28, 19, 39// McAdoo era: 28, 27, 21. Interestingly, Eli was sacked 25.2 times per season during the Gilbride era and has been sacked 25 times per year during the McAdoo era.
Although these calculations were performed with pen, paper and my trust Radio Shack Dual Powered Solar Calculaor, athere does not appear to have been any halving of the sack totals as you asserted.
First of all, remove 2004 as he only played 9 games and started 7. Secondly, you're right, I didn't normalize the delta against 100%. So when it shows 100%, that's effectively flat. I was picking up the spreadsheet from the "Eli washed up? Not by the numbers!" thread and just re-parsed the data.
And you're right, it hasn't decreased by half. But it has decreased. It decreased when BMc took over for KG, and then decreased even further when BMc took over for TC. So for the narrative that Eli is under such duress that he can't possibly perform, there's evidence here to suggest that earlier in his career, Eli was more willing to wait for plays to come open. And add to that the decreasing Y/A and Y/C and you start to see a trend of checking down (which I think many of us can anecdotally attest to as well).
I continue to say that I am not absolving the OL of any responsibility, but if you're not willing to see that Eli bears some of the responsibility himself, you're just choosing not to see the whole picture.
I hear you about McAdoo but it's hard to dictate anything when only one of your lineman (Pugh) is winning his battle on a consistent basis.