Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
I'm not paying attention because I'm speculating that the umps won't over turn a bang bang call that all of us to a man aren't even sure tipped the bat. We think it tipped the bat. We want to believe it tipped the bat especially in the heat of the moment last night. But we don't know anything. It was a close play. Umps fuck up easy calls but you're certain they get this one?
He should have challenged. It's still not a fireable offense.
Go ahead and fire the guy. But we could do a lot worse than having girardi as the skipper here. Every year the yanks virtually play over their heads with girardi calling the shots. He did a masterful job this season. He had a bad night.
to get worked up about putting in a guy who had an insane season. Not holding that one against Girardi at all, not when there are so many better reasons.
who is your replacement? I'm not saying he can't be fired, but this is a unique job. Its not a plug the next manager dujour in there and run with it. Handling NY is a whole different animal. for you guys that know the system better than I is there a guy down there that deserves a shot? Again managing in Scranton or Trenton is a lot different than here but I'm seriously asking because I'm not all that familiar with the up and coming guys either throughout the system or the league.
Last night's outcome shouldn't change your opinion of Girardi
Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I've heard that Jay Bell is highly regarded in the org
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
I'm not paying attention because I'm speculating that the umps won't over turn a bang bang call that all of us to a man aren't even sure tipped the bat. We think it tipped the bat. We want to believe it tipped the bat especially in the heat of the moment last night. But we don't know anything. It was a close play. Umps fuck up easy calls but you're certain they get this one?
He should have challenged. It's still not a fireable offense.
Come on man. It's obvious that you didn't see the same replays as the rest of us. They showed the slow mo close up and it clear as day hit the knob of the bat ONLY. And this replay would have been available to the replay crew had Joe challenged. I honestly have no idea how you could sit here today and say that none of us know whether it hit the batter or not. All of the evidence is there.
RE: Last night's outcome shouldn't change your opinion of Girardi
Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
1) Challenge the play
2) Let CC have more leash given the pen is tired anyways and he looked good
3) get Bettances out there with the lea
4) bring in Chapman to face Bruce
but instead he went 0-4.... and here we are.
I would also like to see Matt H get an AB in extras over Torreyes or Headley-
RE: RE: Last night's outcome shouldn't change your opinion of Girardi
Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
Ugh..soUgh..so many typos from doing this on my phone. The first couple of lines should be:
I disagree. He made critical mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBP?
questioning the manager in hindsight it overblown.
But last night was really bad.
To me, the second most obvious blunder (missed replay being the first, obviously) is not pulling Betances once the lead off guy got on. Dellin's inability to slow down the running game is known, real, and absolutely fatal in that situation even before factoring in that he'd already gone 2+ innings.
You simply can not be handing them second base in that situation. Jackson got a bad jump, stumbled, and still swiped the base without much of an issue.
If they were winning their series, this would be even more unbearable.
Lost in all the Girardi chatter is another one of his questionable decisions - the fact that they might lose the series without their best pitcher ever taking the mound.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Well yeah, it's easy to strike out when the other team refuses to throw strikes but still gets strike calls on every pitch. The ball basically has to be in the dirt for a ball to be called. It's disgusting what they are doing to an MVP candidate
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
The Twins lineup is not weak. I think they were second in runs scored in the second half and there is power up and down that lineup. Severino did not pitch well but that is not a pattycake lineup.
Cleveland is really good. I wouldn't even blame Torreyas as I am sure he never expected the catcher to throw a missle from his knees on that pitch. You are not going to see any catcher make a better throw than that.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Judge struck out a 1/3 of the time in the minors and he struck out 30% of the time during the season. He hits like .120 on breaking pitches. The K's are not a mystery. The mystery is why anyone would ever throw that guy a fastball. I doubt he sees one near the strike zone against the Indians.
Heyman reports that Gary Denbo is expected to leave the Yankees to do the same job for the Marlins and his old pal Derek Jeter. Hope they have a good candidate in mind
Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
Ugh..soUgh..so many typos from doing this on my phone. The first couple of lines should be:
I disagree. He made critical mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBP?
Matt - I don't disagree that Girardi's blunder last night cost the Yankees the game. However, the smaller ones would have been quickly covered up and forgotten or never happened had the replay been called for.
I just don't see it as justification to dump the guy. He's going to get a ton of shit, and he's earned it. He gave a half-hearted excuse in the media, but essentially owned up to it (saying he'll know better next time).
in having replay is that the home plate umpire who missed the foul tip and had an unknown strike zone in extra innings gets absolved from blame so that it can shift to the manager not calling for a replay.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
The general arrogance that Girardi had last night when explaining his decisions has always bothered me. The "as a catcher" thing is so lame, as if nobody can understand things on his level.
How about this you jackass, "as a catcher" Gary Sanchez told you right away that pitch hit the bat. Trust your players and we win that game easily and have this series under control. That sort of thing cannot possibly win him much favor with the guys in the clubhouse.
This was Buck in Seattle 1995, Grady Little in 2003. I don't think he can come back from this one.
The general arrogance that Girardi had last night when explaining his decisions has always bothered me. The "as a catcher" thing is so lame, as if nobody can understand things on his level.
How about this you jackass, "as a catcher" Gary Sanchez told you right away that pitch hit the bat. Trust your players and we win that game easily and have this series under control. That sort of thing cannot possibly win him much favor with the guys in the clubhouse.
This was Buck in Seattle 1995, Grady Little in 2003. I don't think he can come back from this one.
If they lose the series, Girardi is gone. No new contract. That was a firable offense last night. And his absolute arrogant answer to the media was the icing on the cake.
the media guys didnt hammer him in that press conference. They are all doing it in their articles now, but they needed to do it right in that conference room last night. They let him be arrogant and didn't go on the attack which is shocking for some of them
Mike is always wrong. But what it really means is that guys who take care of Francesa at the Stadium Levine, Trost and their minions have turned on Girardi which is also obvious from listening to Michael Kay rip him during games and on his awful radio show. Jack Curry another YES employee hasn't been shy about going after Girardi the last few months too. As disgusting at the game was yesterday it was not an outlier. The Yankees lost many games this year the same way with the bullpen over worked and failing at the worst time. Look how many games Betances & Chapman blew.
is a good manager who made an absolutely boneheaded decision not to challenge the play. Other than that, he was fine. I like that he tries to use analytics to make decisions though he's always been too reliant on small sample sizes in his binder.
I can't get on him for taking out CC. Had CC imploded, people would be calling for his head asking how he could leave in CC with the bullpen arms that were raring to go.
Calling for Girardi to be fired over the non-challenge is ridiculous because it would be punitive rather than doing what's best for the franchise going forward.
1) The starting pitching plus a lot of good bullpen pitchers got us 90 wins or so. Winning the division with 95 wins or beating the elite teams ( Cleveland and Houston) over the next few years is going to require better starting pitching.
Good starting pitching lessens the risk of needing so many different relief pitchers at innings levels they are not used to.
This is not an elite 100 win team until it has an ace. Hopefully that is Severino. An ace has learned to deliver in big games and master his emotions. We go into next year without an ace.
2) anyone who has to make decisions for a living knows there are few 100% easy decisions. They also know that 1 or 5 or 10% of decisions that are clearly wrong does not make a bad decision maker.
By definition, there are millions of decisions in a spring training to playoff season. IF you get more than what 65% right that's pretty good. 80%? unbelievable. 95%? Unheard of I would imagine. Its a game where winning 65% of games is very very good.
3) Us humans tend to jump on clear bad decisions. A bad decision is not a bad decision maker.
Torreyes, Frazier, Gardner, Betances, Green, Judge, etc. all made bad decisions or failed to execute.
The decision to order a bunt or to replace CC or to not replace Betances all have plausible risks and rewards.
Data indicates that umpires get about 85-95% of calls right. But they get a much smaller percent of the close and tough calls right. As we all know, 10% of the plays (play being a sequence started by a pitch) are the game. In a game of 300 pitches, 10% is 30 calls. Lets say umps get 70% of the tough ones right. That leaves 9 wrong calls a game. If is well umpired. A manager gets one challenge. He missed. Clearly. Incontrovertibly.
That is no proof he is a bad decision maker.
As for Betances...he got many chances this season. He does not do well with runners on. A severe flaw in a relief pitcher.
Judge got many chances this year. Ditto Chapman. Other managers might have handled those situations differently. Girardi also showed faith in Bird. Not everyone, including some well placed public nuisance ( Levine) did.
Stengel, Durocher, Huggins, McCarthy, Mack, Alston. All made bonehead decisions. All did not find a way to reach all the players. All wrecked talented but sensitive players.
Girardi relies on analytics and probabilities. So does Belichek. Failed him when he calculated the probabilities for covering Manningham...that one play that mattered.
I think he messed up. Badly.
Young players developed and did well under him this year. Many players had career high years. Better metric for making a decision about next years manager?
I don't think taking Cleveland or Houston any of the next few years is going be easy for any manager. I don't think a different manager is the gap that's going to allow them to get past those teams. Starting pitching so the bullpen can shine would be my vote.
Better situational hitting takes a few years in the majors to learn. Situational hitting is vital in the playoffs. Our hitters are not going to be at their peak next year. Maybe the following year. Some like Castro, may never be a smart hitter.
Fun team to root for this year, no matter what happens.
And the Yankees should promote Tony Pena imo. Keep it in house and good vibes. (More reason to forgive and forget with Girardi and move forward with him)
1) The starting pitching plus a lot of good bullpen pitchers got us 90 wins or so. Winning the division with 95 wins or beating the elite teams ( Cleveland and Houston) over the next few years is going to require better starting pitching.
Good starting pitching lessens the risk of needing so many different relief pitchers at innings levels they are not used to.
This is not an elite 100 win team until it has an ace. Hopefully that is Severino. An ace has learned to deliver in big games and master his emotions. We go into next year without an ace.
2) anyone who has to make decisions for a living knows there are few 100% easy decisions. They also know that 1 or 5 or 10% of decisions that are clearly wrong does not make a bad decision maker.
By definition, there are millions of decisions in a spring training to playoff season. IF you get more than what 65% right that's pretty good. 80%? unbelievable. 95%? Unheard of I would imagine. Its a game where winning 65% of games is very very good.
3) Us humans tend to jump on clear bad decisions. A bad decision is not a bad decision maker.
Torreyes, Frazier, Gardner, Betances, Green, Judge, etc. all made bad decisions or failed to execute.
The decision to order a bunt or to replace CC or to not replace Betances all have plausible risks and rewards.
Data indicates that umpires get about 85-95% of calls right. But they get a much smaller percent of the close and tough calls right. As we all know, 10% of the plays (play being a sequence started by a pitch) are the game. In a game of 300 pitches, 10% is 30 calls. Lets say umps get 70% of the tough ones right. That leaves 9 wrong calls a game. If is well umpired. A manager gets one challenge. He missed. Clearly. Incontrovertibly.
That is no proof he is a bad decision maker.
As for Betances...he got many chances this season. He does not do well with runners on. A severe flaw in a relief pitcher.
Judge got many chances this year. Ditto Chapman. Other managers might have handled those situations differently. Girardi also showed faith in Bird. Not everyone, including some well placed public nuisance ( Levine) did.
Stengel, Durocher, Huggins, McCarthy, Mack, Alston. All made bonehead decisions. All did not find a way to reach all the players. All wrecked talented but sensitive players.
Girardi relies on analytics and probabilities. So does Belichek. Failed him when he calculated the probabilities for covering Manningham...that one play that mattered.
I think he messed up. Badly.
Young players developed and did well under him this year. Many players had career high years. Better metric for making a decision about next years manager?
I don't think taking Cleveland or Houston any of the next few years is going be easy for any manager. I don't think a different manager is the gap that's going to allow them to get past those teams. Starting pitching so the bullpen can shine would be my vote.
Better situational hitting takes a few years in the majors to learn. Situational hitting is vital in the playoffs. Our hitters are not going to be at their peak next year. Maybe the following year. Some like Castro, may never be a smart hitter.
Fun team to root for this year, no matter what happens.
Off season? Starting pitching. imho
Bill2- You have an unbelievable ability to get past emotional reactions, clearly analyze a situation, and summarize accurately and concisely. But, you don't need me to tell you this. I agree that starting pitching is the key for any team that is a "playoff" capable team. After all, great pitching is normally necessary to finish in postseason. The Yanks have come a long way in a relatively short rebuild but the next step is starting pitching. They could use a stud (or two) and I hope it is a priority in the off season. I am excited for our team's future but there needs to be serious decisions in the off season. Great post.
Girardi and Belichick or a worse example of what Girardi did and did not do in the game yesterday compared to Mannigham's catch in 46.
A big part of Belichick's brilliance is his ability to adjust on the fly, to coach during games when things go wrong. Girardi has no ability to adjust during games and as Sherman points out below Girardi is wound tight when things go off script. Teams take on the personalities of their coaches and mangers. Anyone who watched the game yesterday saw that same scenario play out 15 times this year.
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But if the game goes off script, Girardis penchant is to tighten up, display every facial tell of a man being swamped by tension. He is not blessed with Second City ad-lib dexterity nor a poker face.
Game 2 of this Division Series was a referendum on this. Girardi took out CC Sabathia because that is what the pre-game plan was, damn that he was at 77 pitches, doing well and more likely to be a runway model than be overwhelmed by the moment.
He stuck with Chad Green despite overt signs that it was not the young rightys night because a season of information about Greens excellence outweighed what was occurring 100 feet from Girardis vantage point.
Girardi let a clearly struggling Green face Francisco Lindor with the bases loaded because he said he liked the history against the brilliant shortstop. That history was two strikeouts in two at-bats in August, which compared to how Green looked Friday night was as relevant as the color of his socks.
Stuff like that happened dozens of times during the year. Sitting Headley early in the season when he was red hot and Didi and Sanchez were on the DL. Sitting Bird after 3 hits and his 1st HR, sitting Hicks after he hit 2 HR's from both sides of the plate in a 3-2 win. Pinch hitting Headley in September for Bird during a comeback attempt when Bird was red hot because a lefty was brought into the game. Stuff like that went on every week. Things that were pre planned before the games played out were followed through with even though they made no sense based on what happened on the field.
As you know better than anyone baseball managers are a dime a dozen very rarely are they difference makers. Most of their worth comes in a breath of fresh air when the previous manager has contributed to a stale atmosphere.
I'm convinced no matter what happens Girardi will be back. He's Cashman's guy and I expect Cashman to power play him into being back if he needs to. I don't think it will matter much except to those of us who watch 150 games a year and see the team managed by a passive cyborg.
There are much worse game managers than Girardi in MLB. Terry Collins is as bad as I've ever seen and his team almost won the WS. Joe Madden is considered one of the best and he did everything he could to lose the WS last year unfortunately it didn't work.
So like we both seem agree if the Yankees can improve the starting pitching and the key young players don't fall off a cliff Girardi is just along for the ride anyway.
As long as there is evidence that most players do well playing for him.
The average guys like Ellsbury, Headley, Gardner, Frazier have played to career norms and no worse ( taken as a group)
As long as there is evidence that young players do well and are played ( can you imagine St Joe with his dislike of young players and over reliance on one bullpen arm with this roster and the new players yet to be entrusted to his "judgement" ?).
I could argue that Judge, C Frazier and Hicks and Bird all did well or learned by something/approach Girardi/coaching is doing
Now, the third base coach lost us three games if not more with bonehead decisions to send people this year.
And I would argue that the over all results of the pitchers hide two things that lead me to question the pitching coach:
- When pitchers got inconsistent or lost their mechanics or their feel for a pitch...I did not see that they got fixed as much as they fixed themselves. To his credit, during the long season Girardi stayed with position guys of talent he needed to work things out. That worked with the position players but I am not sure the pitching coaching can claim they helped anyone.
- I don't think Betances or Chapman came into the season with the heads or the shape that matched their reputations. Who do they listen to? Or respect?
Lastly, Sanchez on defense cost us at least one to three games this year.
IF the third base coach and Sanchez on defense did better this year...we get to be Division Leaders and face Houston.
In which case we would be in trouble...not because of the manager but because we need 2 more pitchers and one of them has to be an ace for us to climb the next notch.
Lets watch...every losing team in a playoff series has examples of bad managing. And as you noted many a winner does as well.
One of the attractions of baseball is that the average guy could have managed better. Its obvious.
One of the attractions of football is that it is complex enough to have something to debate all the time.
Both sports draw us in partially because some calls are so boneheaded every game that its tempting to think we could do better
There was an article a few months ago I'm not sure if you saw linked below. Cashman has assembled a bullpen filled with power arms. He's also spent millions of dollars on an analytics staff which he's using to tell Rothschild/Girardi he wants the Yankees to throw more curveballs. My opinion as an untrained observer that's why Betances especially and Chapman have struggle so badly. No "proof" just the eye test.
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The Yankees went into Fenway Park and thoroughly throttled Boston's deep lineup in its tiny ballpark. New York's pitchers posted a 1.76 ERA over four games. The Yankees split the series, though they should have taken three of four, but for a meltdown by closer Aroldis Chapman in the ninth inning of the opener.
Heres the cutting edge part: New York's pitchers threw only 40.7% fastballs in the series. (Fastballs here are defined as four-seam and two-seam fastballs, not cut fastballs.)
For the Yankees, this was not an anomaly. They throw the fewest fastballs in baseball, and its not even close. They average a fastball rate of just 43.1%. Houston is next lowest at 47.3%.
What makes New York's low fastball usage all the more surprising is that its pitchers have the highest average velocity of any team in baseball (94.3 mph, tied with Pittsburgh).
I asked New York's pitching guru, coach Larry Rothschild, to explain this new world of pitching.
Fastballs get hit, Rothschild said. Its amazing to me to see guys throwing in the upper 90s and they get hit. I dont know how these guys do it. Thats how good major league hitters are. They have adjusted to velocity. To hit upper 90s, you have to gear up for upper 90s. So hitters are going up there to gear up for velocity. And when they do that, they can hit it no matter how hard you throw.
Yes. Saw that. Agree its a concern. But to me Betances is an possible ...possible ...emotional issue from the Levine based BS of the arbitration hearing and a headcase issue as he falls apart with men on base plus an inability to hold onto his mechanics.
The first possibility is on Levine. The second is on Betances. The Third is on a pitching coaches. imho
Gone are the days when Mariano could precisely repeat his motion for years and years on end. That is a kind of physical intelligence and athletic ability few have
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In comment 13634096 Kyle in NY said:
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Fire. This. Man.
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
I'm not paying attention because I'm speculating that the umps won't over turn a bang bang call that all of us to a man aren't even sure tipped the bat. We think it tipped the bat. We want to believe it tipped the bat especially in the heat of the moment last night. But we don't know anything. It was a close play. Umps fuck up easy calls but you're certain they get this one?
He should have challenged. It's still not a fireable offense.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
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In comment 13634206 djm said:
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In comment 13634096 Kyle in NY said:
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Fire. This. Man.
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
I'm not paying attention because I'm speculating that the umps won't over turn a bang bang call that all of us to a man aren't even sure tipped the bat. We think it tipped the bat. We want to believe it tipped the bat especially in the heat of the moment last night. But we don't know anything. It was a close play. Umps fuck up easy calls but you're certain they get this one?
He should have challenged. It's still not a fireable offense.
Come on man. It's obvious that you didn't see the same replays as the rest of us. They showed the slow mo close up and it clear as day hit the knob of the bat ONLY. And this replay would have been available to the replay crew had Joe challenged. I honestly have no idea how you could sit here today and say that none of us know whether it hit the batter or not. All of the evidence is there.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
2) Let CC have more leash given the pen is tired anyways and he looked good
3) get Bettances out there with the lea
4) bring in Chapman to face Bruce
but instead he went 0-4.... and here we are.
I would also like to see Matt H get an AB in extras over Torreyes or Headley-
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Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
Ugh..soUgh..so many typos from doing this on my phone. The first couple of lines should be:
I disagree. He made critical mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBP?
But last night was really bad.
To me, the second most obvious blunder (missed replay being the first, obviously) is not pulling Betances once the lead off guy got on. Dellin's inability to slow down the running game is known, real, and absolutely fatal in that situation even before factoring in that he'd already gone 2+ innings.
You simply can not be handing them second base in that situation. Jackson got a bad jump, stumbled, and still swiped the base without much of an issue.
Inexcusable.
Lost in all the Girardi chatter is another one of his questionable decisions - the fact that they might lose the series without their best pitcher ever taking the mound.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
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Win game 3, Sevy will take us to game5.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Well yeah, it's easy to strike out when the other team refuses to throw strikes but still gets strike calls on every pitch. The ball basically has to be in the dirt for a ball to be called. It's disgusting what they are doing to an MVP candidate
Ah, yes. Girardi isn't at all responsible for last night. Wtf game were you watching?
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Win game 3, Sevy will take us to game5.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Cleveland is really good. I wouldn't even blame Torreyas as I am sure he never expected the catcher to throw a missle from his knees on that pitch. You are not going to see any catcher make a better throw than that.
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Win game 3, Sevy will take us to game5.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Because Chisenhall struck out. Plain and simple. If that is called correctly, no grand slam and the Yankees almost certainly win.
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In comment 13634233 jcn56 said:
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Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
Ugh..soUgh..so many typos from doing this on my phone. The first couple of lines should be:
I disagree. He made critical mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBP?
Matt - I don't disagree that Girardi's blunder last night cost the Yankees the game. However, the smaller ones would have been quickly covered up and forgotten or never happened had the replay been called for.
I just don't see it as justification to dump the guy. He's going to get a ton of shit, and he's earned it. He gave a half-hearted excuse in the media, but essentially owned up to it (saying he'll know better next time).
Had his work game as manager in game 2
It's almost a wash.
Let girardi keep his job, but make it clear we expect a WS in the next 3 years max
I'm sure the umps like replay when it does that.
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Win game 3, Sevy will take us to game5.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Jesus you're a miserable fuck.
Well maybe if chapman didn't suck this year we could have one the division.
How about this you jackass, "as a catcher" Gary Sanchez told you right away that pitch hit the bat. Trust your players and we win that game easily and have this series under control. That sort of thing cannot possibly win him much favor with the guys in the clubhouse.
This was Buck in Seattle 1995, Grady Little in 2003. I don't think he can come back from this one.
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Liked an instant gram post that called Girardi an imbecile. SMH.
Well maybe if chapman didn't suck this year we could have one the division.
That's almost surely whoever controls Chapman's social media doing that. Still not good though
How about this you jackass, "as a catcher" Gary Sanchez told you right away that pitch hit the bat. Trust your players and we win that game easily and have this series under control. That sort of thing cannot possibly win him much favor with the guys in the clubhouse.
This was Buck in Seattle 1995, Grady Little in 2003. I don't think he can come back from this one.
If they lose the series, Girardi is gone. No new contract. That was a firable offense last night. And his absolute arrogant answer to the media was the icing on the cake.
That said, let's rebound and win this fucking series , we can win 3 straight games.
Francesa saying on air to me that its very possible the Yankees dont bring back Joe Girardi...
I can't get on him for taking out CC. Had CC imploded, people would be calling for his head asking how he could leave in CC with the bullpen arms that were raring to go.
Calling for Girardi to be fired over the non-challenge is ridiculous because it would be punitive rather than doing what's best for the franchise going forward.
The Yankees outperformed expectations this year.
1) The starting pitching plus a lot of good bullpen pitchers got us 90 wins or so. Winning the division with 95 wins or beating the elite teams ( Cleveland and Houston) over the next few years is going to require better starting pitching.
Good starting pitching lessens the risk of needing so many different relief pitchers at innings levels they are not used to.
This is not an elite 100 win team until it has an ace. Hopefully that is Severino. An ace has learned to deliver in big games and master his emotions. We go into next year without an ace.
2) anyone who has to make decisions for a living knows there are few 100% easy decisions. They also know that 1 or 5 or 10% of decisions that are clearly wrong does not make a bad decision maker.
By definition, there are millions of decisions in a spring training to playoff season. IF you get more than what 65% right that's pretty good. 80%? unbelievable. 95%? Unheard of I would imagine. Its a game where winning 65% of games is very very good.
3) Us humans tend to jump on clear bad decisions. A bad decision is not a bad decision maker.
Torreyes, Frazier, Gardner, Betances, Green, Judge, etc. all made bad decisions or failed to execute.
The decision to order a bunt or to replace CC or to not replace Betances all have plausible risks and rewards.
Data indicates that umpires get about 85-95% of calls right. But they get a much smaller percent of the close and tough calls right. As we all know, 10% of the plays (play being a sequence started by a pitch) are the game. In a game of 300 pitches, 10% is 30 calls. Lets say umps get 70% of the tough ones right. That leaves 9 wrong calls a game. If is well umpired. A manager gets one challenge. He missed. Clearly. Incontrovertibly.
That is no proof he is a bad decision maker.
As for Betances...he got many chances this season. He does not do well with runners on. A severe flaw in a relief pitcher.
Judge got many chances this year. Ditto Chapman. Other managers might have handled those situations differently. Girardi also showed faith in Bird. Not everyone, including some well placed public nuisance ( Levine) did.
Stengel, Durocher, Huggins, McCarthy, Mack, Alston. All made bonehead decisions. All did not find a way to reach all the players. All wrecked talented but sensitive players.
Girardi relies on analytics and probabilities. So does Belichek. Failed him when he calculated the probabilities for covering Manningham...that one play that mattered.
I think he messed up. Badly.
Young players developed and did well under him this year. Many players had career high years. Better metric for making a decision about next years manager?
I don't think taking Cleveland or Houston any of the next few years is going be easy for any manager. I don't think a different manager is the gap that's going to allow them to get past those teams. Starting pitching so the bullpen can shine would be my vote.
Better situational hitting takes a few years in the majors to learn. Situational hitting is vital in the playoffs. Our hitters are not going to be at their peak next year. Maybe the following year. Some like Castro, may never be a smart hitter.
Fun team to root for this year, no matter what happens.
Off season? Starting pitching. imho
This is and still is the plan.
The key for 2018? 2019 is in the bank.
2018 one of the keys will be Otani and his $30 million value at the IFA discount at just $3.8 million.
Have matsui and Tanaka recruit him because it's more about recruitment below age 25 then it is Money for Otani at his age..
1) The starting pitching plus a lot of good bullpen pitchers got us 90 wins or so. Winning the division with 95 wins or beating the elite teams ( Cleveland and Houston) over the next few years is going to require better starting pitching.
Good starting pitching lessens the risk of needing so many different relief pitchers at innings levels they are not used to.
This is not an elite 100 win team until it has an ace. Hopefully that is Severino. An ace has learned to deliver in big games and master his emotions. We go into next year without an ace.
2) anyone who has to make decisions for a living knows there are few 100% easy decisions. They also know that 1 or 5 or 10% of decisions that are clearly wrong does not make a bad decision maker.
By definition, there are millions of decisions in a spring training to playoff season. IF you get more than what 65% right that's pretty good. 80%? unbelievable. 95%? Unheard of I would imagine. Its a game where winning 65% of games is very very good.
3) Us humans tend to jump on clear bad decisions. A bad decision is not a bad decision maker.
Torreyes, Frazier, Gardner, Betances, Green, Judge, etc. all made bad decisions or failed to execute.
The decision to order a bunt or to replace CC or to not replace Betances all have plausible risks and rewards.
Data indicates that umpires get about 85-95% of calls right. But they get a much smaller percent of the close and tough calls right. As we all know, 10% of the plays (play being a sequence started by a pitch) are the game. In a game of 300 pitches, 10% is 30 calls. Lets say umps get 70% of the tough ones right. That leaves 9 wrong calls a game. If is well umpired. A manager gets one challenge. He missed. Clearly. Incontrovertibly.
That is no proof he is a bad decision maker.
As for Betances...he got many chances this season. He does not do well with runners on. A severe flaw in a relief pitcher.
Judge got many chances this year. Ditto Chapman. Other managers might have handled those situations differently. Girardi also showed faith in Bird. Not everyone, including some well placed public nuisance ( Levine) did.
Stengel, Durocher, Huggins, McCarthy, Mack, Alston. All made bonehead decisions. All did not find a way to reach all the players. All wrecked talented but sensitive players.
Girardi relies on analytics and probabilities. So does Belichek. Failed him when he calculated the probabilities for covering Manningham...that one play that mattered.
I think he messed up. Badly.
Young players developed and did well under him this year. Many players had career high years. Better metric for making a decision about next years manager?
I don't think taking Cleveland or Houston any of the next few years is going be easy for any manager. I don't think a different manager is the gap that's going to allow them to get past those teams. Starting pitching so the bullpen can shine would be my vote.
Better situational hitting takes a few years in the majors to learn. Situational hitting is vital in the playoffs. Our hitters are not going to be at their peak next year. Maybe the following year. Some like Castro, may never be a smart hitter.
Fun team to root for this year, no matter what happens.
Off season? Starting pitching. imho
Bill2- You have an unbelievable ability to get past emotional reactions, clearly analyze a situation, and summarize accurately and concisely. But, you don't need me to tell you this. I agree that starting pitching is the key for any team that is a "playoff" capable team. After all, great pitching is normally necessary to finish in postseason. The Yanks have come a long way in a relatively short rebuild but the next step is starting pitching. They could use a stud (or two) and I hope it is a priority in the off season. I am excited for our team's future but there needs to be serious decisions in the off season. Great post.
A big part of Belichick's brilliance is his ability to adjust on the fly, to coach during games when things go wrong. Girardi has no ability to adjust during games and as Sherman points out below Girardi is wound tight when things go off script. Teams take on the personalities of their coaches and mangers. Anyone who watched the game yesterday saw that same scenario play out 15 times this year.
Game 2 of this Division Series was a referendum on this. Girardi took out CC Sabathia because that is what the pre-game plan was, damn that he was at 77 pitches, doing well and more likely to be a runway model than be overwhelmed by the moment.
He stuck with Chad Green despite overt signs that it was not the young rightys night because a season of information about Greens excellence outweighed what was occurring 100 feet from Girardis vantage point.
Girardi let a clearly struggling Green face Francisco Lindor with the bases loaded because he said he liked the history against the brilliant shortstop. That history was two strikeouts in two at-bats in August, which compared to how Green looked Friday night was as relevant as the color of his socks.
Stuff like that happened dozens of times during the year. Sitting Headley early in the season when he was red hot and Didi and Sanchez were on the DL. Sitting Bird after 3 hits and his 1st HR, sitting Hicks after he hit 2 HR's from both sides of the plate in a 3-2 win. Pinch hitting Headley in September for Bird during a comeback attempt when Bird was red hot because a lefty was brought into the game. Stuff like that went on every week. Things that were pre planned before the games played out were followed through with even though they made no sense based on what happened on the field.
Yes the Yankees need more starting pitching and they need the young players to not stumble backwards. Thats not hard to see but they also need a much more aggressive manager that trust his players.
A great strength for Joe Girardi undermines his glaring weakness - ( New Window )
I don't want to choose the pro Girardi side in any debate but that's an easy target as a response
You are the manager. its the inning. Its the game ahead and another tomorrow.
Name each pitcher you would pick instead for each inning?
Go ahead...name the clear clear better choice without hindsight?
Its right in front of you...right this second. Don't choke or get wound too tight now...its just BBI and your intelligence on the line
Name 3 successful clearly better managers with a more aggressive approach?
Name a more aggressive choice set sequence of pitchers per inning from what was available?
Go for it...
Tough to see such a way to lose as last night so shortly after seeing the Giants so far.
I'm convinced no matter what happens Girardi will be back. He's Cashman's guy and I expect Cashman to power play him into being back if he needs to. I don't think it will matter much except to those of us who watch 150 games a year and see the team managed by a passive cyborg.
There are much worse game managers than Girardi in MLB. Terry Collins is as bad as I've ever seen and his team almost won the WS. Joe Madden is considered one of the best and he did everything he could to lose the WS last year unfortunately it didn't work.
So like we both seem agree if the Yankees can improve the starting pitching and the key young players don't fall off a cliff Girardi is just along for the ride anyway.
As long as there is evidence that most players do well playing for him.
The average guys like Ellsbury, Headley, Gardner, Frazier have played to career norms and no worse ( taken as a group)
As long as there is evidence that young players do well and are played ( can you imagine St Joe with his dislike of young players and over reliance on one bullpen arm with this roster and the new players yet to be entrusted to his "judgement" ?).
I could argue that Judge, C Frazier and Hicks and Bird all did well or learned by something/approach Girardi/coaching is doing
Now, the third base coach lost us three games if not more with bonehead decisions to send people this year.
And I would argue that the over all results of the pitchers hide two things that lead me to question the pitching coach:
- When pitchers got inconsistent or lost their mechanics or their feel for a pitch...I did not see that they got fixed as much as they fixed themselves. To his credit, during the long season Girardi stayed with position guys of talent he needed to work things out. That worked with the position players but I am not sure the pitching coaching can claim they helped anyone.
- I don't think Betances or Chapman came into the season with the heads or the shape that matched their reputations. Who do they listen to? Or respect?
Lastly, Sanchez on defense cost us at least one to three games this year.
IF the third base coach and Sanchez on defense did better this year...we get to be Division Leaders and face Houston.
In which case we would be in trouble...not because of the manager but because we need 2 more pitchers and one of them has to be an ace for us to climb the next notch.
Lets watch...every losing team in a playoff series has examples of bad managing. And as you noted many a winner does as well.
One of the attractions of baseball is that the average guy could have managed better. Its obvious.
One of the attractions of football is that it is complex enough to have something to debate all the time.
Both sports draw us in partially because some calls are so boneheaded every game that its tempting to think we could do better
Heres the cutting edge part: New York's pitchers threw only 40.7% fastballs in the series. (Fastballs here are defined as four-seam and two-seam fastballs, not cut fastballs.)
For the Yankees, this was not an anomaly. They throw the fewest fastballs in baseball, and its not even close. They average a fastball rate of just 43.1%. Houston is next lowest at 47.3%.
What makes New York's low fastball usage all the more surprising is that its pitchers have the highest average velocity of any team in baseball (94.3 mph, tied with Pittsburgh).
I asked New York's pitching guru, coach Larry Rothschild, to explain this new world of pitching.
Fastballs get hit, Rothschild said. Its amazing to me to see guys throwing in the upper 90s and they get hit. I dont know how these guys do it. Thats how good major league hitters are. They have adjusted to velocity. To hit upper 90s, you have to gear up for upper 90s. So hitters are going up there to gear up for velocity. And when they do that, they can hit it no matter how hard you throw.
Let's hope the conversation after today is game 4 not what happens in the off season.
Slow down: The Yankees are leading a change in baseball by abandoning a principle of pitching - ( New Window )
The first possibility is on Levine. The second is on Betances. The Third is on a pitching coaches. imho
Gone are the days when Mariano could precisely repeat his motion for years and years on end. That is a kind of physical intelligence and athletic ability few have