Yankees
1. Brett Gardner, LF
2. Aaron Judge, RF
3. Gary Sanchez, C
4. Didi Gregorius, SS
5. Starlin Castro, 2B
6. Greg Bird, 1B
7. Aaron Hicks, CF
8. Jacoby Ellsbury, DH
9. Todd Frazier, 3B
CC Sabathia, P
Indians
1. Francisco Lindor, SS
2. Jason Kipnis, CF
3. Jose Ramirez, 2B
4. Edwin Encarnacion, DH
5. Carlos Santana, 1B
6. Jay Bruce, RF
7. Austin Jackson, LF
8. Yan Gomes, C
9. Giovanny Urshela, 3B
Corey Kluber, P
Why Ells over Headley? Headley has had better AB's. oh well, let's hope Chief Jacoby can cash in tonight!
All of the movable parts in the order have HORRENDOUS numbers versus Kluber, so I think he's going with the guy he thinks is more likely to make contact today.
They need Sabathia to pitch a gem in order to win.
Why Ells over Headley? Headley has had better AB's. oh well, let's hope Chief Jacoby can cash in tonight!
All of the movable parts in the order have HORRENDOUS numbers versus Kluber, so I think he's going with the guy he thinks is more likely to make contact today.
Yep Ells is actually the best at 5-19 off him. I think he's looking for speed and maybe ignite the running game if they get a chance. Also they can PH Heads vs. Miller if need be as he's 5-7 lifetime vs. him and had a great AB last night.
on the Indians payroll, by any chance? Jeezus man. It's all Indian talk all the time. Both last night and tonight so far. You'd barely know who the other team is
on the Indians payroll, by any chance? Jeezus man. It's all Indian talk all the time. Both last night and tonight so far. You'd barely know who the other team is
line drive up the middle, Didi makes the catch and tries to double up EE at second (as uppose to letting the ball drop and turning 2).
EE goes back to the bag and the side of his foot tags the side of the bag (his foot is flush with the side of the bag) but his whole body goes forward due to his momentum so he rolled his ankle laterally as bad as I've seen in baseball.
line drive up the middle, Didi makes the catch and tries to double up EE at second (as uppose to letting the ball drop and turning 2).
EE goes back to the bag and the side of his foot tags the side of the bag (his foot is flush with the side of the bag) but his whole body goes forward due to his momentum so he rolled his ankle laterally as bad as I've seen in baseball.
mad at Frazier for that? He was likely sent by the third base coach and Judge had 2 strikes on him against probably the best 2 strike pitcher in baseball.
Low risk, force the action and now Judge gets to come up with a fresh count next inning.
The guy at the plate has 52 home runs. Unless Frazier is 99.9% certain he's going to get that base, it's not a good idea. That's a good idea when Ellsbury is up.
The guy at the plate has 52 home runs. Unless Frazier is 99.9% certain he's going to get that base, it's not a good idea. That's a good idea when Ellsbury is up.
He was way behind in the count. If he gets caught, he gets a fresh AB to lead off the next inning. Whatever. Not gonna debate it. This game is too stressful.
mad at Frazier for that? He was likely sent by the third base coach and Judge had 2 strikes on him against probably the best 2 strike pitcher in baseball.
Low risk, force the action and now Judge gets to come up with a fresh count next inning.
Don't you know that he's from NJ and he played in the LIttle League World Series?
And hes been mostly brilliant in the field since we traded for him. Some posters could use some of the mental toughness they demand from the Yankees pitchers
Don't you know that he's from NJ and he played in the LIttle League World Series?
And hes been mostly brilliant in the field since we traded for him. Some posters could use some of the mental toughness they demand from the Yankees pitchers
Yeah well you can't make errors to give up the lead when your team is facing the best pitcher in the league. He's made two. In two innings.
Big couple innings ahead, CC has to get this to our big guns in the bullpen
I was in the car earlier and heard the "yankees suck" chant. Was that because we challenged the Encarnacion play on second or because we won the challenge?
Big couple innings ahead, CC has to get this to our big guns in the bullpen
I was in the car earlier and heard the "yankees suck" chant. Was that because we challenged the Encarnacion play on second or because we won the challenge?
I was on mute while sneaking in a quick call to my mom, missed that bit
How about that MLB network playoff promo during the break...about 30 playoff baseball clips, not one of the Yankees, about 6 of the Red Sox...Yankee haters are such wieners.
Big couple innings ahead, CC has to get this to our big guns in the bullpen
I was in the car earlier and heard the "yankees suck" chant. Was that because we challenged the Encarnacion play on second or because we won the challenge?
Came during the challenge. We were bad sports for getting our out apparently.
How about that MLB network playoff promo during the break...about 30 playoff baseball clips, not one of the Yankees, about 6 of the Red Sox...Yankee haters are such wieners.
I'm glad someone else noticed that. I posted about it last night, but wasn't sure if maybe I just missed a Yankees clip.
I think a healthy Bird, with Judge and Sanchez give the Yanks an amazing core. Bird as a bigger, stronger Olerud is a reasonable upside if he stays healthy, I love kids with a special swing because when healthy, they don't have prolonged slumps,
Love the big fella but we are in out to out territory now
With a horrendous managing job. CC retire 12 of 13 and its at 74 pitches and he is taken out why? Girardi doesn't protest the obvious ball hitting the knob for strike 3? Why leave Green in there?
With a horrendous managing job. CC retire 12 of 13 and its at 74 pitches and he is taken out why? Girardi doesn't protest the obvious ball hitting the knob for strike 3? Why leave Green in there?
With a horrendous managing job. CC retire 12 of 13 and its at 74 pitches and he is taken out why? Girardi doesn't protest the obvious ball hitting the knob for strike 3? Why leave Green in there?
has been unhittable and he's not even warmed up. It was on tuesday but Robertson does not pitch sit down pitch sit down and then pitch again basically at all, and then you want him to do it twice in a week, with Kahnle and Chapman sitting there.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Now Chapman has been up twice, that's always good, without bringing him in.
I have always been a girardi supporter but honestly this one is so bad that if they lose this game and series I would consider firing him
I had no problem bringing in Green or leaving in Robertson.
has been unhittable and he's not even warmed up. It was on tuesday but Robertson does not pitch sit down pitch sit down and then pitch again basically at all, and then you want him to do it twice in a week, with Kahnle and Chapman sitting there.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Now Chapman has been up twice, that's always good, without bringing him in.
I have always been a girardi supporter but honestly this one is so bad that if they lose this game and series I would consider firing him
Unhittable? Kahnle almost gave up a 3 run HR on Monday.
Wanna complain about the challenge? Fine. But let's not act like everything else was the dumbest thing in the history of mankind.
Its on Joe. C.C. was not in any trouble and probably gets out of that inning with minimal damage if any at all. And then not to challenge is nuts. What did he have to lose.
On August 15, 2013, Major League Baseball announced that it would expand its video review process for the 2014 season, granting managers one challenge over the first six innings of games and two from the seventh inning until the end of the game.
So he already challenged the Encarnacion play. He didn't have another one. Blame the refs not Joe on this one.
I didn't love taking CC out either. CC had retired 10 of the last 11 he was in a real groove.
He was at 17 pitches and dealing. You really trust Chappy to get 6 outs in this park seriously? That Bruce AB was an all time AB. La8d of brilliant breaking stuff then tattoed the 3-1 meatball
Its on Joe. C.C. was not in any trouble and probably gets out of that inning with minimal damage if any at all. And then not to challenge is nuts. What did he have to lose.
This was Chad Green's 2nd bad game in 6 weeks!!!!!
He had to get up, pitch, and sit down twice. He rarely ever does that. He did it once this week already, no reason to push it again with Kahnle, Chapman, and Betances left down there
has been unhittable and he's not even warmed up. It was on tuesday but Robertson does not pitch sit down pitch sit down and then pitch again basically at all, and then you want him to do it twice in a week, with Kahnle and Chapman sitting there.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Now Chapman has been up twice, that's always good, without bringing him in.
I have always been a girardi supporter but honestly this one is so bad that if they lose this game and series I would consider firing him
On August 15, 2013, Major League Baseball announced that it would expand its video review process for the 2014 season, granting managers one challenge over the first six innings of games and two from the seventh inning until the end of the game.
So he already challenged the Encarnacion play. He didn't have another one. Blame the refs not Joe on this one.
I didn't love taking CC out either. CC had retired 10 of the last 11 he was in a real groove.
I dont think you understand how challenges actually work in baseball. Plenty of times teams have been without challenges and their challenge is still granted, they just go out there and suggest the umpires look at it and they can.
Not one time has a play come up that ive seen where it wasnt looked at because a manager was out of challenges.
They were able to have that looked at and Joe didn't ask them to. It's on him
how many pitches Robertson threw. He was taxed on tuesday and you don't have him pitch in 3 separate innings again with what they have available in the pen
A couple of days after he throws 51 pitches and you expect him to go more than 1.1? Shades of fucking Torre in 2004 with Gordon.
He looked fucking great.
LITERALLY NOT ONE FUCKING PERSON HERE said it was a bad idea to leave Robertson in to face Bruce PRIOR to the HR. Then all of a sudden, it was the worst idea in the world.
A couple of days after he throws 51 pitches and you expect him to go more than 1.1? Shades of fucking Torre in 2004 with Gordon.
He looked fucking great.
LITERALLY NOT ONE FUCKING PERSON HERE said it was a bad idea to leave Robertson in to face Bruce PRIOR to the HR. Then all of a sudden, it was the worst idea in the world.
I said it out loud to my dog. Same with the early yank on CC, let him finish that damn inning.
It is a pleasure to be able to come out here and soak in the knowledge of some many ex-MLB players and managers. It is so much better than reading the negative diatribes of the former JV Bergen county football players post a Giants game.
And not posting here. They have plenty of quality arms - why tempt fate by having Robertson come back a second time two days after he threw the longest outing of his career? Against a guy with major power?
It is a pleasure to be able to come out here and soak in the knowledge of some many ex-MLB players and managers. It is so much better than reading the negative diatribes of the former JV Bergen county football players post a Giants game.
If strategy wasn't discussed and criticized, message boards wouldn't exist. I guess we should just all sit here with pom poms and never criticize anything, BBI would be so fun.
Who knew you needed to play in the majors or be a manager to know not challenging the play in the 6th was mind numbing.
i am not sure there is anything more annoying than blaming the umps
fuck the Mets for giving away Bruce for nothing. Useless sacks of shit that they always are
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
They did turn down better deals prospect wise just to save money. What are you doing on a message board if you dont think anyone can discuss or criticize anything that happens? Are you wearing your skirt waving your pom poms every night?
Gary takes one right down the middle for strike 3.
that the Mets turned down a better offer for Bruce from the Yankees prospect wise just because the Indians were willing to pick up all of Bruce's salary.
fuck the Mets for giving away Bruce for nothing. Useless sacks of shit that they always are
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
They did turn down better deals prospect wise just to save money. What are you doing on a message board if you dont think anyone can discuss or criticize anything that happens? Are you wearing your skirt waving your pom poms every night?
Pom poms? No but I can put together sentences without cursing every time I post. FYI - the majority of people out here can complete sentences without curses. And most, despite never standing up to your ridiculous rants, laugh at your sounding like a moron.
fuck the Mets for giving away Bruce for nothing. Useless sacks of shit that they always are
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
They did turn down better deals prospect wise just to save money. What are you doing on a message board if you dont think anyone can discuss or criticize anything that happens? Are you wearing your skirt waving your pom poms every night?
Pom poms? No but I can put together sentences without cursing every time I post. FYI - the majority of people out here can complete sentences without curses. And most, despite never standing up to your ridiculous rants, laugh at your sounding like a moron.
Not that it has much place in a game thread, but the Mets were roundly criticized for taking less for Bruce in exchange for dumping all his salary.
fuck the Mets for giving away Bruce for nothing. Useless sacks of shit that they always are
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
They did turn down better deals prospect wise just to save money. What are you doing on a message board if you dont think anyone can discuss or criticize anything that happens? Are you wearing your skirt waving your pom poms every night?
Pom poms? No but I can put together sentences without cursing every time I post. FYI - the majority of people out here can complete sentences without curses. And most, despite never standing up to your ridiculous rants, laugh at your sounding like a moron.
Please bring something, anything, to this board. The next thing you bring to this board besides basically being a cheerleader will be the first. Message boards are designed for doing exactly what people on here are doing, discussing the game and second guessing decisions. If no one had an opinion besides ex players and managers, TV wouldn't exist, and sports wouldn't exist because no one would give a shit to watch.
You came here, brought nothing besides basically saying no one can ever criticize anything when it comes to sports unless they played professionally or coached. Then you made a fool of yourself responding to the Mets post, when they did in fact trade him for nothing and got ripped apart for it by everyone at the time because all they wanted to do was save money.
it doesn't matter that the Mets were hammered by basically every beat writer for taking lesser prospects for Bruce just to save a few bucks. No one is allowed to have an opinion or criticize anything unless they played professionally or coached. Get with the program here. Ask Eric if BBI would exist if people weren't allowed to have an opinion or criticize a coaches decision. He'd be out of business in no time.
it doesn't matter that the Mets were hammered by basically every beat writer for taking lesser prospects for Bruce just to save a few bucks. No one is allowed to have an opinion or criticize anything unless they played professionally or coached. Get with the program here. Ask Eric if BBI would exist if people weren't allowed to have an opinion or criticize a coaches decision. He'd be out of business in no time.
Deep breaths, Mook, channel that energy over to Cleveland...
As a Mets fan, you are really going to bash them for not taking the Yanks shitty offer? Listen, they are a terrible run franchise and everyone knows it, but why would they they want to help the Yanks if every offer they were getting was pretty much the same? The Tribe was willing to pay the full salary (which the Yanks were not) and we know how the dollar pinching Wilpons operate.
Can you imagine the backlash if they traded him to the Yanks and he was the mission piece? They would be burning down the rotunda at Citi.
the Mets would have done the same if it was the houston astros offering a better deal. They are insanely cheap and it screws fans like you over. I get what you're saying about not wanting to trade him to the Yankees, but the Mets at this point should be worried about improving their own team, not the Yankees. They are awful owners.
why is the 2nd basemen allowed to block the bag like that? I know they can, but there's no reason they should be allowed to basically put their leg down and block the base runners path to the bag
to suffer through the Giants bone headedness, but tonight having to endure it with the yanks. Not a great time to be a NY sports fan.
Come on man, this is a little extreme. The Giants suckiness aside, its a great time to be a Yankee fan. Theyre proving theyre not quite ready to take out one of the best teams in baseball, but theyre not far from reaching that level.
1 pitch from Betances and Lindor grounds out to second.
to suffer through the Giants bone headedness, but tonight having to endure it with the yanks. Not a great time to be a NY sports fan.
Come on man, this is a little extreme. The Giants suckiness aside, its a great time to be a Yankee fan. Theyre proving theyre not quite ready to take out one of the best teams in baseball, but theyre not far from reaching that level.
They're a year ahead of schedule. No one expected them to make the playoffs this season.
to suffer through the Giants bone headedness, but tonight having to endure it with the yanks. Not a great time to be a NY sports fan.
Come on man, this is a little extreme. The Giants suckiness aside, its a great time to be a Yankee fan. Theyre proving theyre not quite ready to take out one of the best teams in baseball, but theyre not far from reaching that level.
Not at all. If the Yanks lose tonight, they have only their selves to blame. First Joe's bone head decision to not challenge the hit batsmen, then Torreyes bone headed play to get picked off at 2nd
to suffer through the Giants bone headedness, but tonight having to endure it with the yanks. Not a great time to be a NY sports fan.
Come on man, this is a little extreme. The Giants suckiness aside, its a great time to be a Yankee fan. Theyre proving theyre not quite ready to take out one of the best teams in baseball, but theyre not far from reaching that level.
Not at all. If the Yanks lose tonight, they have only their selves to blame. First Joe's bone head decision to not challenge the hit batsmen, then Torreyes bone headed play to get picked off at 2nd
Im with you, this game has been a skull fuck - just saying the big picture is still very bright.
strikes, inside pitches are strikes, and outside pitches are strikes. The ump has literally expanded the zone in all directions for the Yanks the past two innings.
Can't tell if he's having problem judging the curve or not. Seems like the Bauer Syndrome.
One of the worst losses in Yankees postseason history.
We've been lucky enough to witness far far far more great moments than just about any fan base. I've been watching since '76. That is by far the shittiest loss I've ever seen.
Fuck the Indians. Fuck Cleveland. Fuck the ump. The Yanks didn't lose this game, the Indians didn't win this game. Fuck the umps again. Way to celebrate like you just won the world series. I hope you just blew your load and you lose four straight.
didn't do a good job, but he had to get 4 outs because his manager made one of the worst mistakes in the history of sports.
That's not hyperbole. If an NFL coach didn't challenge something that was clearly a fumble that essentially would ice a playoff game and then lost, he would lose his job.
Chad was gassed - no shame in that. Smoltz saw it right away.
Decided to go to the Ben MacAdoo school of managing tonight. I was screaming at him after that decision to not challenge and knew it would bite the team in the ass. Yanks and Giants both need new coaches in the worst ways possible. This is the kind of loss you don't recover from, so disappointing as I was looking forward to watching at least a few more baseball games with the Giants season already over.
Joe has 6 closer-caliber pitchers in the bullpen, but he still
I was wondering earlier where the fuck Holliday is. One playoff tested guy with good pitch selection and power. Yea let's sit him and not have him hit all series.
Talking about not wanting to break a pitchers rhythm and 30 second bullshit.
Sanchez was adamant that he was hit, and there is nothing to lose by challenging.
THE FUCKING INNING WAS OVER IF YOU CHALLENGE YOU FUCKING IDIOT. It wasn't the difference between a foul ball and a HBP, it was the difference between a strikeout, end of inning and a HBP.
Seriously, fire him now. That explanation was worse than blaming someone else.
All he needed to know was Sanchez knew it hit the knob. You have no risk in challenging at that point.
Torre survived multiple fireable offenses - using Weaver in 03, burning the Bullpen out in 04 - because he had the four rings. Joe only has one. Time for a change, see ya at Old Timers Day
But his handling of this series has been terrible. I won't cry if he gets canned
Same page here. As I said earlier. Joe's non-challenge was Grady Little '03 level incompetence and that cost Little his job. I like Joe a lot and the main reason I wouldn't fire him is because I don't see a clear cut replacement.
RE: RE: Yan fucking Gomes ends the game with an RBI single.
One of the worst losses in Yankees postseason history.
We've been lucky enough to witness far far far more great moments than just about any fan base. I've been watching since '76. That is by far the shittiest loss I've ever seen.
Game 4 of 2004 ALCS has to take the cake, but this is right up there.
Toereyes is gonna take the heat, but joe cant let delin pitch after the walk. he already pitched 2 and is a danger with runners on. also after the steal you walk gomes. plus the non review.
Now he's basically enforcing a rule that umpires don't enforce on himself. They didn't tell him he had to give a decision he gave it to them himself because he was thinking of a dumb rule that they never even enforce and weren't trying to enforce.
Just trust what sanchez and chisenhall did.
They have to fire him. Any manager that could do what he did in that situation can never be trusted in a big spot ever again.
I can't believe what he just said. He actually would have been better off if he threw someone under the bus
Chad Green was already out of the flow. He wasn't right from the moment he got out there. It took him forever to get A-Jax out, then he gave up a hard hit double to a shitty hitter.
But this is TERRIBLE fucking managing. No excuse for that shit. Contract is up. Previous poster is right. Let someone else ride this run and steer the ship for the next dynasty of Yankees baseball.
One of the worst losses in Yankees postseason history.
We've been lucky enough to witness far far far more great moments than just about any fan base. I've been watching since '76. That is by far the shittiest loss I've ever seen.
Game 4 of 2004 ALCS has to take the cake, but this is right up there.
naaa '04 was bad but that was over in the first inning. This one we had to be tantalized and tortured for almost 3 hours AFTER the grandslam
and argued with some of you guys about it here in the past. But that time is done. Cashman set him up with 5 bazookas in the bullpen and hes gone full fucking debacle with it.
And thats not even covering choosing not to review. What does that say to a team full of players going all out to win a huge road playoff game?
We ripped Kluber tonight on the road, had an 8-3 lead and choked it away. Just ducking terrible.
Yep, and none of the fucking morons in the interview room in Cleveland went after him even 10% as much as they should have.
Who cares we all know he fucked up. What should they do start a fight?
Yes, they all should have had the exact response that Curry and Flaherty did in the studio.
They let him off the hook in the interview. No one challenged him when he basically said he enforced a rule on himself that the umpires werent even enforcing.
Every question in that PC should have been about that 6th inning, from taking CC out to the rest. Each explanation should have been followed up by a question pressing him more. The media in new york knows how to go on the attack against coaches even when they have no business doing so, yet they all sat there on their asses tonight when they needed to attack him
This loss is squarely on Girardi. No one else. They had a chance to get a leg up in a playoff series against the best team in baseball and the manager cost them for no good reason and likely cost them their season. As season where they could have had a shot at a title.
If I had to guess, I'd say because Chad Green has been the best relief pitcher in all of baseball the second half of the season and really wasn't being used inconsistently with how he's been used all year. Now Green fucking sucked, but let's stop acting like Joe pulled CC out to bring in Sergio Mitre.
Chad Green had 1 bad game since the middle of August prior
brings up a good point about CC. He retired the 3rd, 4th and 5th innings 1,2,3. Then lets up a hit in the 6th, gets the next batter and is pulled. He was at 70 pitches.
If I had to guess, I'd say because Chad Green has been the best relief pitcher in all of baseball the second half of the season and really wasn't being used inconsistently with how he's been used all year. Now Green fucking sucked, but let's stop acting like Joe pulled CC out to bring in Sergio Mitre.
I am fine with the CC move. The non-challenge is inexcusable and leaving Betances in was also a horrendous move. We all know Betances cannot pitch with runners on and the leadoff guy got on. Everybody and their mother knew the Indian was stealing. You just allowed a guy to get into scoring position with no outs. Unreal.
Liked him as a player, seems like a good guy and a straight shooter. Think he's had a nice run here. This was pretty clearly his most questionable season though, in terms of strategy and decision-making. Mow, on top of that, he pretty much singlehandedly cost them a playoff game that they just HAD to win. It's inexcusable.
Every manager has a sell-by date. JOE HAS HIT HIS.
If people want to kill Joe for the non-challenge, have at it.
His reason is completely moronic. But acting like bringing in Chad Green was dumb considering how great he's been is a bit much. You would think he brought in Chasen Shreve. The guy just shit the bed... granted he should've been out of the inning with no damage.
He's not been able to give them many innings all year long and you have Green, who had a '96 Mariano kind of year. He just didn't get it done. Going to Green was still the right call though.
8-3 lead, Encarnacion hurt, beat up their ace, all the momentum in the world against the best team in the AL and Girardi fucks the entire thing up. I still can't believe it.
If George were running things, you'd know he was a goner.
I had just commented that CC looked strong. He was mowing them down with an 8-3 lead. He puts one guy on in the 6th and Joe takes the ball away. CC is a seasoned playoff pitcher and he had more in the tank. I was frustrated then and now. If Green had been his normal self, it would have been forgotten. I think CC had 3 to 5 more outs in him. Sucks.
8-3 lead, Encarnacion hurt, beat up their ace, all the momentum in the world against the best team in the AL and Girardi fucks the entire thing up. I still can't believe it.
That about sums it up.
RE: RE: RE: Yan fucking Gomes ends the game with an RBI single.
One of the worst losses in Yankees postseason history.
We've been lucky enough to witness far far far more great moments than just about any fan base. I've been watching since '76. That is by far the shittiest loss I've ever seen.
Game 4 of 2004 ALCS has to take the cake, but this is right up there.
Honestly I haven't been this emotional about a baseball game since then.. I'm downright angry right now.. and to see the Indians celebrating like they won the world series makes me want to puke.. I turned the tv back in after 15 minutes and there is Jay Bruce with Gatorade dropping down his hat still on the field being interviewed... FUCK!!!!
CC hasn't thrown a bunch of pitches for most of the year, they had their bullpen ready to go in a must win situation.
Zero issue bringing Greene in.
I would not have brought Robertson out for what I consider is his 3rd inning of work. I know outs wise it wasn't, but the bigger thing to me is how many times he had to pitch, sit down, pitch, sit down, pitch. He did it the other night for the first time all year and threw 50+ pitches, I don't push that envelope again tonight.
But that's not that huge of a deal, I can see both sides of it at least.
Yep, and none of the fucking morons in the interview room in Cleveland went after him even 10% as much as they should have.
Who cares we all know he fucked up. What should they do start a fight?
Yes, they all should have had the exact response that Curry and Flaherty did in the studio.
They let him off the hook in the interview. No one challenged him when he basically said he enforced a rule on himself that the umpires werent even enforcing.
Every question in that PC should have been about that 6th inning, from taking CC out to the rest. Each explanation should have been followed up by a question pressing him more. The media in new york knows how to go on the attack against coaches even when they have no business doing so, yet they all sat there on their asses tonight when they needed to attack him
Mook Joe is a stand up guy who would never throw a coach or player under the bus to the media. I could be 100% wrong here, but I bet his replay guy told him it wasn't clear enough to challenge and he came up with that lame BS excuse to keep from giving the real reason. Maybe I'm wrong but who knows, either way fighting him in the interview room accomplishes nothing.
I understand why he did it, but I recognize it was debatable. My only argument with people here was don't act like it was a no-brainer.
- Robby mowed through 4 guys on only 17 pitches
- If we could trust Betances, this game would've ended a long time ago in victory
- I don't think he really wanted to have to get 6 outs with Chappy
They had an issue earlier in the year with not getting the slow mo replay in time to challenge something. They apparently had it again tonight. He didn't challenge that time either as a result.
The media ALWAYS hammers these coaches over stuff like this. Hell they go after coaches when they have no reason to and they just want to start shit. Why all of them in that room chose to give him a pass tonight when hammering him was warranted is beyond me.
but hopefully shit like what happened tonight will convince them to stop bunting. If they never bunted ever again they would be much better off. For every 1 time it's the right play, there's 5 where it's the wrong play, so just stop doing it all together. Bad things regularly happen when they try to bunt or bunt
Did Joe say why he didn't bring in Chapman to pitch to Bruce
but hopefully shit like what happened tonight will convince them to stop bunting. If they never bunted ever again they would be much better off. For every 1 time it's the right play, there's 5 where it's the wrong play, so just stop doing it all together. Bad things regularly happen when they try to bunt or bunt
Gardner looked horrific at the plate tonight. If there was any guy who needed to bunt it was him. Problem is, when you're supposed to bunt, you can't be pulling the bat back unless the pitch is completely unhittable. No matter WTF happens, Toe can't get picked off by a catcher in that spot at second base. Can't fucking happen.
Just a lot of dumb shit that leads to losing a playoff game in that situation.
on this group. 3 wins against this team will be difficult. This young Yankee group comes alive at home and I could see some of the dead bats come alive. Win on Sunday and the Indians will start feeling the rectums tighten a little.
when the infamous non-replay thing happened. Not that I need to tell you all this but Sterling and Susan need to be fired yesterday. They had no clue what the fuck happened. They both looked at multiple replays and both agreed that the ball hit nothing. Not even a remote clue about the foul tip. Then on the Grand Slam for a few seconds Sterling had no clue what the fuck happened. As usual I knew it was gone by the crowd reaction. Never mentioned once that it hit the foul pole.
RE: FYI I was on my way home from my son's little league game
when the infamous non-replay thing happened. Not that I need to tell you all this but Sterling and Susan need to be fired yesterday. They had no clue what the fuck happened. They both looked at multiple replays and both agreed that the ball hit nothing. Not even a remote clue about the foul tip. Then on the Grand Slam for a few seconds Sterling had no clue what the fuck happened. As usual I knew it was gone by the crowd reaction. Never mentioned once that it hit the foul pole.
its really a shame that the Yankees are unlistenable radio. We deserve better, much better.
Scored early and often.. CC pitched well.. but errors early on and bad coaching cost us this game.. plus once we got kicked in the mouth we didn't know how to regroup and bounce back. Encouraging but signs of a young team. Playing a team like this you can't afford mistakes they will make you pay. I hope we learn from this and add some solid veteran leadership this off-season.
RE: FYI I was on my way home from my son's little league game
when the infamous non-replay thing happened. Not that I need to tell you all this but Sterling and Susan need to be fired yesterday. They had no clue what the fuck happened. They both looked at multiple replays and both agreed that the ball hit nothing. Not even a remote clue about the foul tip. Then on the Grand Slam for a few seconds Sterling had no clue what the fuck happened. As usual I knew it was gone by the crowd reaction. Never mentioned once that it hit the foul pole.
Centerstage starring John Sterling is on YES right now. Tune in! It's exhilarating!
Scored early and often.. CC pitched well.. but errors early on and bad coaching cost us this game.. plus once we got kicked in the mouth we didn't know how to regroup and bounce back. Encouraging but signs of a young team. Playing a team like this you can't afford mistakes they will make you pay. I hope we learn from this and add some solid veteran leadership this off-season.
lets get rid of Chase Headley while we're at it. Just suck it up and eat the last year of that blundered contract. How many weak ground balls can one man hit in a single season? Fuckin A with Headley, I'm sick of him. Todd Frazier can hit the road too, I am not impressed with any aspect of his game. In a league where everyone and their mother are hitting homeruns I'm sure we could find someone else on the cheap to run into a few homers and hit below the Mendoza line. Ellsbury, ah forget it.
Scored early and often.. CC pitched well.. but errors early on and bad coaching cost us this game.. plus once we got kicked in the mouth we didn't know how to regroup and bounce back. Encouraging but signs of a young team. Playing a team like this you can't afford mistakes they will make you pay. I hope we learn from this and add some solid veteran leadership this off-season.
lets get rid of Chase Headley while we're at it. Just suck it up and eat the last year of that blundered contract. How many weak ground balls can one man hit in a single season? Fuckin A with Headley, I'm sick of him. Todd Frazier can hit the road too, I am not impressed with any aspect of his game. In a league where everyone and their mother are hitting homeruns I'm sure we could find someone else on the cheap to run into a few homers and hit below the Mendoza line. Ellsbury, ah forget it.
Agreed. I want Headley off the team.
Torres at 3B next year. Let Torreyes or a vet play april and may if Torres needs a little extra seasoning from the injury
Ship Castro's ass the hell out of town. Tired of seeing him sleepwalking in the field. Get another year out of Headley or some other stopgap 3B and then sign Machado.
Let's not let Girardi's monumental blunder obscure the fact that the game was one of the sorriest attempts at umping a game I've ever seen. That clown should be hitting the bricks just like Girardi.
was one of the biggest injuries we suffered this year - he was coming for somebody's job and would've helped us.
Machado/Didi/Gleyber/Bird/Sanchez around the horn is what I've been dreaming of. Judge/Hicks/Gardy next year in the OF, with Clint and then Florial (later on) working their way in, too. We'll bludgeon teams. But those are off-season convos - hopefully we avoid them for a few more days.
Ship Castro's ass the hell out of town. Tired of seeing him sleepwalking in the field. Get another year out of Headley or some other stopgap 3B and then sign Machado.
Let's not let Girardi's monumental blunder obscure the fact that the game was one of the sorriest attempts at umping a game I've ever seen. That clown should be hitting the bricks just like Girardi.
I'm with this. Castro shipped for a decent starter would be great. Machado's glove and bat combo will be well appreciated having watched Frazier fuck up twice in the field today, and that's with him supposing to be our sure hander at 3rd.
We haven't had the production at third that we deserve since A-Rod.
Criminal. The I didnt want to disrupt the pitchers rhythm line is utter shit.
Then he said he left Green in (who clearly didnt have his good stuff) bc Lindor was 0-2 lifetime against Green. A sample size of 2 fucking ABs, so he leaves in a pitcher who just got ripped by Yan Gomes?!?!
Ive groused about the binders derisive nickname many times, but its so fucking accurate and spot on after last nights debacle I hereby concede the debate now and forever.
Criminal. The I didnt want to disrupt the pitchers rhythm line is utter shit.
Then he said he left Green in (who clearly didnt have his good stuff) bc Lindor was 0-2 lifetime against Green. A sample size of 2 fucking ABs, so he leaves in a pitcher who just got ripped by Yan Gomes?!?!
Ive groused about the binders derisive nickname many times, but its so fucking accurate and spot on after last nights debacle I hereby concede the debate now and forever.
If they lose this series, do you think Joe just lost his job?
Beating Kluber to go even up in the series coming the the Stadium would have been huge.
RE: RE: Just read some of Girardis post game comments
Criminal. The I didnt want to disrupt the pitchers rhythm line is utter shit.
Then he said he left Green in (who clearly didnt have his good stuff) bc Lindor was 0-2 lifetime against Green. A sample size of 2 fucking ABs, so he leaves in a pitcher who just got ripped by Yan Gomes?!?!
Ive groused about the binders derisive nickname many times, but its so fucking accurate and spot on after last nights debacle I hereby concede the debate now and forever.
If they lose this series, do you think Joe just lost his job?
Beating Kluber to go even up in the series coming the the Stadium would have been huge.
I concede Im clearly still very wound up, like most of us...so my first reaction is how can he not lose his job?
I wonder how Cashman feels about it, or the rest of the Yanks brass. I suspect Cash is very frustrated, but I have no doubt Levine, Trost and the rest of that merry band of bean counters love Girardi, bc he never embarrasses them off the field and likely doesnt complain much.
That was his reason for taking C.C. out. Not because he threw too many pitches. He was only at 76. Because thats the way theyve been doing it most of the year. He said that in his post game presser.
And I disagree with those who say C.C. didnt give you much past that all year anyway. Joe used the 100 pitch barometer on C.C. when it came to taking him out this year. C.C. was in cruise control and the way he was pitching could have easily gone seven.
Joe got in the way this time. Its his managerial style. He makes moves because thats what managers do. Not because its necessary. I was shocked when took C.C. out. Even as he brought Chad Green in I thought well its Chad Green but at that point why? C.C. was in complete control and he had a five run lead with one out in the sixth against and an Indian team that couldnt figure him out.
It wasnt a one run lead and the Indians pushing the issue. Joe blew it. Then he compounds the problem but not listening to his catcher late in the game and doesnt challange because his replay guy cant give him an up or down signal. What did he have to lose. In this case after that performance he may have engineered his way out of New York.
was about the most stupid fucking reason that I've ever heard a coach or manager relay. Girardi, with his engineering degree from Northwestern , is beyond bright . But, Cmon! Games get interrupted all the time now. The umps would have changed that call in a minute .
He is formulaic to a fault . However, this time he made some moves outside the box. Pitching Robertson a second inning. I've always advocated that. Well, Alabamie fell behind Bruce , whose mind set was not to swing at a curveball, So he keep giving him curveballs . Sanchez switched at 2-0. Bruce knew exactly where he was going with the ball.
But Frazier gave Cleveland 2 runs early. You're playing in a stadium that has always played small, just like Camden. When batters hit the ball on the ground in MLB this season , the Out rate is 86 %. So CC got porked. First by Frazier, then Girardi.
8-3 with the world's best pull pen . 11 outs to go. Now they probably will get swept because the Indians left-handed bats will pepper the right-field seats against Tanaka.
Lastly it looks like the umpire Union has decided that the Indians are going to end the streak this season. The field has been tilted to their advantage . Tough combo to beat because the team is damn good.
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
Those guys didnt hold anything back. They roundly criticized Girardi for taking C.C. out when it wasnt necessary. And not listening to his catcher on the foul tip. They felt at that point in the game what did he have to lose by challenging. Why wait for an up or down from the replay guy. The worse that could happen is the call stands. Plus after seven innings the umpires have the option to review anything they feel is a questionable call. All the more reason to challange.
As a Yankee fan Ive grown tired of Girardis cookie cutter approach to managing. He has blown a lot of games over the years by inserting himself into the equation simply because its what his notebook tells him to do. Not what the action on the field indicates. And boy, last night was the poster child for that. He made one bad move after the next. And one bad non move after the next. He pushed all the buttons last night and they were all wrong. It was whack a mole at its worst.
Girardi absolutely ruined the weekend before it started. I want to cause him physical pain. Still steaming.
On my way to let out my moms dogs last night Jawn and Susan were joking about what the stadium would look like Sunday. John said "if they hold on to win" and Susan said "You think they are coming back on this bullpen..... With the way CC is pitching""
Well Jawn and Susan. Joe Girardi wasn't having any part of the easy win. Fucking season ruined by the monkey headed asshole.
It's really really hard for a baseball manager to lose a game
But Girardi proved his greatness by doing it in a game that will never be forgotten. The Yankees will reward him with a raise and a new 4 contract about 11/1.
All of the "he should have left CC in there" crowd are classic WFAN
2nd guessers. I offer you last week exhibit "A" vs. KC. He was rolling along shutting them out through 6. in about 3 pitches and 2 bombs it was 6-3. CC is a 5+ inning pitcher these days and he loses it quick. That was absolutely the right move. The non-challenge obviously was horrific. Leaving Robertson in we can debate I'm in the leave him in camp. It didn't work out. Bruce had an all time AB. After that the offense lost them the game. Betances/Chappy gave them 4 superb innings. Allen/Miller were clearly on fumes and we couldn't take advantage. Oh well it sucks. Take out 2009 and our playoff performances the past 16 years have been pretty lousy. Hopefully this year is '95 all over again and its the necessary prelude to another great run with or without Girardi.
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
I'm not paying attention because I'm speculating that the umps won't over turn a bang bang call that all of us to a man aren't even sure tipped the bat. We think it tipped the bat. We want to believe it tipped the bat especially in the heat of the moment last night. But we don't know anything. It was a close play. Umps fuck up easy calls but you're certain they get this one?
He should have challenged. It's still not a fireable offense.
Go ahead and fire the guy. But we could do a lot worse than having girardi as the skipper here. Every year the yanks virtually play over their heads with girardi calling the shots. He did a masterful job this season. He had a bad night.
to get worked up about putting in a guy who had an insane season. Not holding that one against Girardi at all, not when there are so many better reasons.
who is your replacement? I'm not saying he can't be fired, but this is a unique job. Its not a plug the next manager dujour in there and run with it. Handling NY is a whole different animal. for you guys that know the system better than I is there a guy down there that deserves a shot? Again managing in Scranton or Trenton is a lot different than here but I'm seriously asking because I'm not all that familiar with the up and coming guys either throughout the system or the league.
Last night's outcome shouldn't change your opinion of Girardi
Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I've heard that Jay Bell is highly regarded in the org
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
I'm not paying attention because I'm speculating that the umps won't over turn a bang bang call that all of us to a man aren't even sure tipped the bat. We think it tipped the bat. We want to believe it tipped the bat especially in the heat of the moment last night. But we don't know anything. It was a close play. Umps fuck up easy calls but you're certain they get this one?
He should have challenged. It's still not a fireable offense.
Come on man. It's obvious that you didn't see the same replays as the rest of us. They showed the slow mo close up and it clear as day hit the knob of the bat ONLY. And this replay would have been available to the replay crew had Joe challenged. I honestly have no idea how you could sit here today and say that none of us know whether it hit the batter or not. All of the evidence is there.
RE: Last night's outcome shouldn't change your opinion of Girardi
Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
1) Challenge the play
2) Let CC have more leash given the pen is tired anyways and he looked good
3) get Bettances out there with the lea
4) bring in Chapman to face Bruce
but instead he went 0-4.... and here we are.
I would also like to see Matt H get an AB in extras over Torreyes or Headley-
RE: RE: Last night's outcome shouldn't change your opinion of Girardi
Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
Ugh..soUgh..so many typos from doing this on my phone. The first couple of lines should be:
I disagree. He made critical mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBP?
questioning the manager in hindsight it overblown.
But last night was really bad.
To me, the second most obvious blunder (missed replay being the first, obviously) is not pulling Betances once the lead off guy got on. Dellin's inability to slow down the running game is known, real, and absolutely fatal in that situation even before factoring in that he'd already gone 2+ innings.
You simply can not be handing them second base in that situation. Jackson got a bad jump, stumbled, and still swiped the base without much of an issue.
If they were winning their series, this would be even more unbearable.
Lost in all the Girardi chatter is another one of his questionable decisions - the fact that they might lose the series without their best pitcher ever taking the mound.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Well yeah, it's easy to strike out when the other team refuses to throw strikes but still gets strike calls on every pitch. The ball basically has to be in the dirt for a ball to be called. It's disgusting what they are doing to an MVP candidate
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
The Twins lineup is not weak. I think they were second in runs scored in the second half and there is power up and down that lineup. Severino did not pitch well but that is not a pattycake lineup.
Cleveland is really good. I wouldn't even blame Torreyas as I am sure he never expected the catcher to throw a missle from his knees on that pitch. You are not going to see any catcher make a better throw than that.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Judge struck out a 1/3 of the time in the minors and he struck out 30% of the time during the season. He hits like .120 on breaking pitches. The K's are not a mystery. The mystery is why anyone would ever throw that guy a fastball. I doubt he sees one near the strike zone against the Indians.
Heyman reports that Gary Denbo is expected to leave the Yankees to do the same job for the Marlins and his old pal Derek Jeter. Hope they have a good candidate in mind
Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
Ugh..soUgh..so many typos from doing this on my phone. The first couple of lines should be:
I disagree. He made critical mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBP?
Matt - I don't disagree that Girardi's blunder last night cost the Yankees the game. However, the smaller ones would have been quickly covered up and forgotten or never happened had the replay been called for.
I just don't see it as justification to dump the guy. He's going to get a ton of shit, and he's earned it. He gave a half-hearted excuse in the media, but essentially owned up to it (saying he'll know better next time).
in having replay is that the home plate umpire who missed the foul tip and had an unknown strike zone in extra innings gets absolved from blame so that it can shift to the manager not calling for a replay.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
The general arrogance that Girardi had last night when explaining his decisions has always bothered me. The "as a catcher" thing is so lame, as if nobody can understand things on his level.
How about this you jackass, "as a catcher" Gary Sanchez told you right away that pitch hit the bat. Trust your players and we win that game easily and have this series under control. That sort of thing cannot possibly win him much favor with the guys in the clubhouse.
This was Buck in Seattle 1995, Grady Little in 2003. I don't think he can come back from this one.
The general arrogance that Girardi had last night when explaining his decisions has always bothered me. The "as a catcher" thing is so lame, as if nobody can understand things on his level.
How about this you jackass, "as a catcher" Gary Sanchez told you right away that pitch hit the bat. Trust your players and we win that game easily and have this series under control. That sort of thing cannot possibly win him much favor with the guys in the clubhouse.
This was Buck in Seattle 1995, Grady Little in 2003. I don't think he can come back from this one.
If they lose the series, Girardi is gone. No new contract. That was a firable offense last night. And his absolute arrogant answer to the media was the icing on the cake.
the media guys didnt hammer him in that press conference. They are all doing it in their articles now, but they needed to do it right in that conference room last night. They let him be arrogant and didn't go on the attack which is shocking for some of them
Mike is always wrong. But what it really means is that guys who take care of Francesa at the Stadium Levine, Trost and their minions have turned on Girardi which is also obvious from listening to Michael Kay rip him during games and on his awful radio show. Jack Curry another YES employee hasn't been shy about going after Girardi the last few months too. As disgusting at the game was yesterday it was not an outlier. The Yankees lost many games this year the same way with the bullpen over worked and failing at the worst time. Look how many games Betances & Chapman blew.
is a good manager who made an absolutely boneheaded decision not to challenge the play. Other than that, he was fine. I like that he tries to use analytics to make decisions though he's always been too reliant on small sample sizes in his binder.
I can't get on him for taking out CC. Had CC imploded, people would be calling for his head asking how he could leave in CC with the bullpen arms that were raring to go.
Calling for Girardi to be fired over the non-challenge is ridiculous because it would be punitive rather than doing what's best for the franchise going forward.
1) The starting pitching plus a lot of good bullpen pitchers got us 90 wins or so. Winning the division with 95 wins or beating the elite teams ( Cleveland and Houston) over the next few years is going to require better starting pitching.
Good starting pitching lessens the risk of needing so many different relief pitchers at innings levels they are not used to.
This is not an elite 100 win team until it has an ace. Hopefully that is Severino. An ace has learned to deliver in big games and master his emotions. We go into next year without an ace.
2) anyone who has to make decisions for a living knows there are few 100% easy decisions. They also know that 1 or 5 or 10% of decisions that are clearly wrong does not make a bad decision maker.
By definition, there are millions of decisions in a spring training to playoff season. IF you get more than what 65% right that's pretty good. 80%? unbelievable. 95%? Unheard of I would imagine. Its a game where winning 65% of games is very very good.
3) Us humans tend to jump on clear bad decisions. A bad decision is not a bad decision maker.
Torreyes, Frazier, Gardner, Betances, Green, Judge, etc. all made bad decisions or failed to execute.
The decision to order a bunt or to replace CC or to not replace Betances all have plausible risks and rewards.
Data indicates that umpires get about 85-95% of calls right. But they get a much smaller percent of the close and tough calls right. As we all know, 10% of the plays (play being a sequence started by a pitch) are the game. In a game of 300 pitches, 10% is 30 calls. Lets say umps get 70% of the tough ones right. That leaves 9 wrong calls a game. If is well umpired. A manager gets one challenge. He missed. Clearly. Incontrovertibly.
That is no proof he is a bad decision maker.
As for Betances...he got many chances this season. He does not do well with runners on. A severe flaw in a relief pitcher.
Judge got many chances this year. Ditto Chapman. Other managers might have handled those situations differently. Girardi also showed faith in Bird. Not everyone, including some well placed public nuisance ( Levine) did.
Stengel, Durocher, Huggins, McCarthy, Mack, Alston. All made bonehead decisions. All did not find a way to reach all the players. All wrecked talented but sensitive players.
Girardi relies on analytics and probabilities. So does Belichek. Failed him when he calculated the probabilities for covering Manningham...that one play that mattered.
I think he messed up. Badly.
Young players developed and did well under him this year. Many players had career high years. Better metric for making a decision about next years manager?
I don't think taking Cleveland or Houston any of the next few years is going be easy for any manager. I don't think a different manager is the gap that's going to allow them to get past those teams. Starting pitching so the bullpen can shine would be my vote.
Better situational hitting takes a few years in the majors to learn. Situational hitting is vital in the playoffs. Our hitters are not going to be at their peak next year. Maybe the following year. Some like Castro, may never be a smart hitter.
Fun team to root for this year, no matter what happens.
And the Yankees should promote Tony Pena imo. Keep it in house and good vibes. (More reason to forgive and forget with Girardi and move forward with him)
1) The starting pitching plus a lot of good bullpen pitchers got us 90 wins or so. Winning the division with 95 wins or beating the elite teams ( Cleveland and Houston) over the next few years is going to require better starting pitching.
Good starting pitching lessens the risk of needing so many different relief pitchers at innings levels they are not used to.
This is not an elite 100 win team until it has an ace. Hopefully that is Severino. An ace has learned to deliver in big games and master his emotions. We go into next year without an ace.
2) anyone who has to make decisions for a living knows there are few 100% easy decisions. They also know that 1 or 5 or 10% of decisions that are clearly wrong does not make a bad decision maker.
By definition, there are millions of decisions in a spring training to playoff season. IF you get more than what 65% right that's pretty good. 80%? unbelievable. 95%? Unheard of I would imagine. Its a game where winning 65% of games is very very good.
3) Us humans tend to jump on clear bad decisions. A bad decision is not a bad decision maker.
Torreyes, Frazier, Gardner, Betances, Green, Judge, etc. all made bad decisions or failed to execute.
The decision to order a bunt or to replace CC or to not replace Betances all have plausible risks and rewards.
Data indicates that umpires get about 85-95% of calls right. But they get a much smaller percent of the close and tough calls right. As we all know, 10% of the plays (play being a sequence started by a pitch) are the game. In a game of 300 pitches, 10% is 30 calls. Lets say umps get 70% of the tough ones right. That leaves 9 wrong calls a game. If is well umpired. A manager gets one challenge. He missed. Clearly. Incontrovertibly.
That is no proof he is a bad decision maker.
As for Betances...he got many chances this season. He does not do well with runners on. A severe flaw in a relief pitcher.
Judge got many chances this year. Ditto Chapman. Other managers might have handled those situations differently. Girardi also showed faith in Bird. Not everyone, including some well placed public nuisance ( Levine) did.
Stengel, Durocher, Huggins, McCarthy, Mack, Alston. All made bonehead decisions. All did not find a way to reach all the players. All wrecked talented but sensitive players.
Girardi relies on analytics and probabilities. So does Belichek. Failed him when he calculated the probabilities for covering Manningham...that one play that mattered.
I think he messed up. Badly.
Young players developed and did well under him this year. Many players had career high years. Better metric for making a decision about next years manager?
I don't think taking Cleveland or Houston any of the next few years is going be easy for any manager. I don't think a different manager is the gap that's going to allow them to get past those teams. Starting pitching so the bullpen can shine would be my vote.
Better situational hitting takes a few years in the majors to learn. Situational hitting is vital in the playoffs. Our hitters are not going to be at their peak next year. Maybe the following year. Some like Castro, may never be a smart hitter.
Fun team to root for this year, no matter what happens.
Off season? Starting pitching. imho
Bill2- You have an unbelievable ability to get past emotional reactions, clearly analyze a situation, and summarize accurately and concisely. But, you don't need me to tell you this. I agree that starting pitching is the key for any team that is a "playoff" capable team. After all, great pitching is normally necessary to finish in postseason. The Yanks have come a long way in a relatively short rebuild but the next step is starting pitching. They could use a stud (or two) and I hope it is a priority in the off season. I am excited for our team's future but there needs to be serious decisions in the off season. Great post.
Girardi and Belichick or a worse example of what Girardi did and did not do in the game yesterday compared to Mannigham's catch in 46.
A big part of Belichick's brilliance is his ability to adjust on the fly, to coach during games when things go wrong. Girardi has no ability to adjust during games and as Sherman points out below Girardi is wound tight when things go off script. Teams take on the personalities of their coaches and mangers. Anyone who watched the game yesterday saw that same scenario play out 15 times this year.
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But if the game goes off script, Girardis penchant is to tighten up, display every facial tell of a man being swamped by tension. He is not blessed with Second City ad-lib dexterity nor a poker face.
Game 2 of this Division Series was a referendum on this. Girardi took out CC Sabathia because that is what the pre-game plan was, damn that he was at 77 pitches, doing well and more likely to be a runway model than be overwhelmed by the moment.
He stuck with Chad Green despite overt signs that it was not the young rightys night because a season of information about Greens excellence outweighed what was occurring 100 feet from Girardis vantage point.
Girardi let a clearly struggling Green face Francisco Lindor with the bases loaded because he said he liked the history against the brilliant shortstop. That history was two strikeouts in two at-bats in August, which compared to how Green looked Friday night was as relevant as the color of his socks.
Stuff like that happened dozens of times during the year. Sitting Headley early in the season when he was red hot and Didi and Sanchez were on the DL. Sitting Bird after 3 hits and his 1st HR, sitting Hicks after he hit 2 HR's from both sides of the plate in a 3-2 win. Pinch hitting Headley in September for Bird during a comeback attempt when Bird was red hot because a lefty was brought into the game. Stuff like that went on every week. Things that were pre planned before the games played out were followed through with even though they made no sense based on what happened on the field.
As you know better than anyone baseball managers are a dime a dozen very rarely are they difference makers. Most of their worth comes in a breath of fresh air when the previous manager has contributed to a stale atmosphere.
I'm convinced no matter what happens Girardi will be back. He's Cashman's guy and I expect Cashman to power play him into being back if he needs to. I don't think it will matter much except to those of us who watch 150 games a year and see the team managed by a passive cyborg.
There are much worse game managers than Girardi in MLB. Terry Collins is as bad as I've ever seen and his team almost won the WS. Joe Madden is considered one of the best and he did everything he could to lose the WS last year unfortunately it didn't work.
So like we both seem agree if the Yankees can improve the starting pitching and the key young players don't fall off a cliff Girardi is just along for the ride anyway.
As long as there is evidence that most players do well playing for him.
The average guys like Ellsbury, Headley, Gardner, Frazier have played to career norms and no worse ( taken as a group)
As long as there is evidence that young players do well and are played ( can you imagine St Joe with his dislike of young players and over reliance on one bullpen arm with this roster and the new players yet to be entrusted to his "judgement" ?).
I could argue that Judge, C Frazier and Hicks and Bird all did well or learned by something/approach Girardi/coaching is doing
Now, the third base coach lost us three games if not more with bonehead decisions to send people this year.
And I would argue that the over all results of the pitchers hide two things that lead me to question the pitching coach:
- When pitchers got inconsistent or lost their mechanics or their feel for a pitch...I did not see that they got fixed as much as they fixed themselves. To his credit, during the long season Girardi stayed with position guys of talent he needed to work things out. That worked with the position players but I am not sure the pitching coaching can claim they helped anyone.
- I don't think Betances or Chapman came into the season with the heads or the shape that matched their reputations. Who do they listen to? Or respect?
Lastly, Sanchez on defense cost us at least one to three games this year.
IF the third base coach and Sanchez on defense did better this year...we get to be Division Leaders and face Houston.
In which case we would be in trouble...not because of the manager but because we need 2 more pitchers and one of them has to be an ace for us to climb the next notch.
Lets watch...every losing team in a playoff series has examples of bad managing. And as you noted many a winner does as well.
One of the attractions of baseball is that the average guy could have managed better. Its obvious.
One of the attractions of football is that it is complex enough to have something to debate all the time.
Both sports draw us in partially because some calls are so boneheaded every game that its tempting to think we could do better
There was an article a few months ago I'm not sure if you saw linked below. Cashman has assembled a bullpen filled with power arms. He's also spent millions of dollars on an analytics staff which he's using to tell Rothschild/Girardi he wants the Yankees to throw more curveballs. My opinion as an untrained observer that's why Betances especially and Chapman have struggle so badly. No "proof" just the eye test.
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The Yankees went into Fenway Park and thoroughly throttled Boston's deep lineup in its tiny ballpark. New York's pitchers posted a 1.76 ERA over four games. The Yankees split the series, though they should have taken three of four, but for a meltdown by closer Aroldis Chapman in the ninth inning of the opener.
Heres the cutting edge part: New York's pitchers threw only 40.7% fastballs in the series. (Fastballs here are defined as four-seam and two-seam fastballs, not cut fastballs.)
For the Yankees, this was not an anomaly. They throw the fewest fastballs in baseball, and its not even close. They average a fastball rate of just 43.1%. Houston is next lowest at 47.3%.
What makes New York's low fastball usage all the more surprising is that its pitchers have the highest average velocity of any team in baseball (94.3 mph, tied with Pittsburgh).
I asked New York's pitching guru, coach Larry Rothschild, to explain this new world of pitching.
Fastballs get hit, Rothschild said. Its amazing to me to see guys throwing in the upper 90s and they get hit. I dont know how these guys do it. Thats how good major league hitters are. They have adjusted to velocity. To hit upper 90s, you have to gear up for upper 90s. So hitters are going up there to gear up for velocity. And when they do that, they can hit it no matter how hard you throw.
Yes. Saw that. Agree its a concern. But to me Betances is an possible ...possible ...emotional issue from the Levine based BS of the arbitration hearing and a headcase issue as he falls apart with men on base plus an inability to hold onto his mechanics.
The first possibility is on Levine. The second is on Betances. The Third is on a pitching coaches. imho
Gone are the days when Mariano could precisely repeat his motion for years and years on end. That is a kind of physical intelligence and athletic ability few have
1. Brett Gardner, LF
2. Aaron Judge, RF
3. Gary Sanchez, C
4. Didi Gregorius, SS
5. Starlin Castro, 2B
6. Greg Bird, 1B
7. Aaron Hicks, CF
8. Jacoby Ellsbury, DH
9. Todd Frazier, 3B
CC Sabathia, P
Indians
1. Francisco Lindor, SS
2. Jason Kipnis, CF
3. Jose Ramirez, 2B
4. Edwin Encarnacion, DH
5. Carlos Santana, 1B
6. Jay Bruce, RF
7. Austin Jackson, LF
8. Yan Gomes, C
9. Giovanny Urshela, 3B
Corey Kluber, P
Shouldn't you be on the Braves playoff thread?
All of the movable parts in the order have HORRENDOUS numbers versus Kluber, so I think he's going with the guy he thinks is more likely to make contact today.
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Why Ells over Headley? Headley has had better AB's. oh well, let's hope Chief Jacoby can cash in tonight!
All of the movable parts in the order have HORRENDOUS numbers versus Kluber, so I think he's going with the guy he thinks is more likely to make contact today.
Yep Ells is actually the best at 5-19 off him. I think he's looking for speed and maybe ignite the running game if they get a chance. Also they can PH Heads vs. Miller if need be as he's 5-7 lifetime vs. him and had a great AB last night.
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Shouldn't you be on the Braves playoff thread?
His phone only goes back to 1997
Now come on CC! Let's do this thing.
Yeah they love them some cleveland. Wow.
bad ankle roll
Oh bullshit...CC may not be pitching well but it's not becaus2 he's "quaking in his shoes "
17 year vet with a ton of postseason experience...cmon
Pretty confident, after all these years, CC isn't lacking mental toughness
EE goes back to the bag and the side of his foot tags the side of the bag (his foot is flush with the side of the bag) but his whole body goes forward due to his momentum so he rolled his ankle laterally as bad as I've seen in baseball.
Every Cleveland pitch has to be a strike and every Yankees pitch a ball. Hate crowds like that.
Stay classy, Cleveland. Acting as if Didi did something wrong there
No they're not. Stop it.
EE goes back to the bag and the side of his foot tags the side of the bag (his foot is flush with the side of the bag) but his whole body goes forward due to his momentum so he rolled his ankle laterally as bad as I've seen in baseball.
Gimme Headcase. Enough of this mfer.
Low risk, force the action and now Judge gets to come up with a fresh count next inning.
It was also a perfect throw by the catcher.
The guy at the plate has 52 home runs. Unless Frazier is 99.9% certain he's going to get that base, it's not a good idea. That's a good idea when Ellsbury is up.
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Perfect throw. Good idea there.
The guy at the plate has 52 home runs. Unless Frazier is 99.9% certain he's going to get that base, it's not a good idea. That's a good idea when Ellsbury is up.
He was way behind in the count. If he gets caught, he gets a fresh AB to lead off the next inning. Whatever. Not gonna debate it. This game is too stressful.
He had a 118 wRC+ at 2-2 which is still good, but he struck out 48% of the time in that situation.
Fuck this.
Low risk, force the action and now Judge gets to come up with a fresh count next inning.
It was also a perfect throw by the catcher.
Yup. You're right.
this is maddening.
Fuck this.
Bullshit... playing best pitcher in baseball and we hand them baseunners..and now runs... this is the playoffs boys.
Judge struck out 54% of the time wit ha wRC+ of 74 this season through 1-2 and he was going against the likely Cy Young winner.
And CC shouldn't have started this game
Kluber won't fold. we are over.
This
And hes been mostly brilliant in the field since we traded for him. Some posters could use some of the mental toughness they demand from the Yankees pitchers
I didnt know that! Really?
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Don't you know that he's from NJ and he played in the LIttle League World Series?
And hes been mostly brilliant in the field since we traded for him. Some posters could use some of the mental toughness they demand from the Yankees pitchers
Yeah well you can't make errors to give up the lead when your team is facing the best pitcher in the league. He's made two. In two innings.
3-3 mo fuckers
Let's go baby lets go
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH baby!!!!
this would me a momentous win that would rock CLE
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH baby!!!!
#yourespellingclobberwrong
this would me a momentous win that would rock CLE
At this point, I'll just settle for 3 straight outs in the bottom of the 3rd.
this would me a momentous win that would rock CLE
Talk about momentum swing... I mean coming into this game you would have thought Corey Kluber was Jesus with a mitt on..
(Maybe I should be begging Todd Frazier?)
Really nice to shut them up for a while
Big couple innings ahead, CC has to get this to our big guns in the bullpen
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faces in the stands. Total shock!
Really nice to shut them up for a while
Big couple innings ahead, CC has to get this to our big guns in the bullpen
I was in the car earlier and heard the "yankees suck" chant. Was that because we challenged the Encarnacion play on second or because we won the challenge?
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In comment 13633473 bluesince56 said:
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faces in the stands. Total shock!
Really nice to shut them up for a while
Big couple innings ahead, CC has to get this to our big guns in the bullpen
I was in the car earlier and heard the "yankees suck" chant. Was that because we challenged the Encarnacion play on second or because we won the challenge?
I was on mute while sneaking in a quick call to my mom, missed that bit
How about that MLB network playoff promo during the break...about 30 playoff baseball clips, not one of the Yankees, about 6 of the Red Sox...Yankee haters are such wieners.
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In comment 13633473 bluesince56 said:
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faces in the stands. Total shock!
Really nice to shut them up for a while
Big couple innings ahead, CC has to get this to our big guns in the bullpen
I was in the car earlier and heard the "yankees suck" chant. Was that because we challenged the Encarnacion play on second or because we won the challenge?
Came during the challenge. We were bad sports for getting our out apparently.
How about that MLB network playoff promo during the break...about 30 playoff baseball clips, not one of the Yankees, about 6 of the Red Sox...Yankee haters are such wieners.
I'm glad someone else noticed that. I posted about it last night, but wasn't sure if maybe I just missed a Yankees clip.
Say, you got a joint, man? Itd be a lot cooler if you did
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#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH baby!!!!
#yourespellingclobberwrong
Guilderland educated.. what do you want from me???
You can hear a mouse fart in that ballpark right now
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In comment 13633465 Bchurch said:
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#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
#CloberKluber
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH baby!!!!
#yourespellingclobberwrong
Guilderland educated.. what do you want from me???
Sorry bro. Smart ass academy grad here.
8-3 good guys.
surely there are better DH options, no?
And please no spoilers on other sporting events tonight!
2 down.
Ramirez just hit into an out and they show a video package of him raking in previous AB's.
weird.
Ramirez just hit into an out and they show a video package of him raking in previous AB's.
weird.
Yup exactly
Be quiet... I need more segments on "How to hit Andrew Miller".
That will be all for Carsten Charles.
STANDING OVATION FROM THE FRONT OF MY LAPTOP!!!!
Now on to the Bullpen of Death! MAH GAWD, THAT'S CHAD GREENS MUSIC!
8-7 Yanks.
That was quite the bed shitting.
Fucking jerkoff umpire but how could Girardi not challenge that? He wins that one easily.
Also left CG in too long
Fuck.
WTF happened?
we lose, that is the turning point.
Maybe they thought it wasn't clear cut?
WTF happened?
Take one huge guess...
Robby strikes out Kipnis on 3 pitches... inning finally over.
I don't disagree with you... I'm just reaching for an answer to why he didn't challenge it.
Girardi not challenging that could ruin their season if they blow this game. Close to a fireable offense
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That had to not be reviewable, why would you pass up that in such a big spot? They'd be out of the inning...
Maybe they thought it wasn't clear cut?
So what?! Up five runs what do you have to lose?!
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That had to not be reviewable, why would you pass up that in such a big spot? They'd be out of the inning...
Maybe they thought it wasn't clear cut?
Video showed it was as clear as day
remind me of the rules.. what happens if he's wrong?
That bad.
There is no "rolling of the dice". They had nothing to lose.
Chisenhall wasn't trying to sell it. Sanchez knew it hit the knob.
Yet Giardi doesn't challenge. If he blames someone else after the game im going to lose my fucking mind. It's not on anyone else except for him.
8-7 Yanks... time for the 7th inning stretch.
He should, but it's easily fixed if he challenges. Exactly why they put replay in.
He fucked up as bad as any manager ever has on that one
That bad.
There is no "rolling of the dice". They had nothing to lose.
Chisenhall wasn't trying to sell it. Sanchez knew it hit the knob.
Yet Giardi doesn't challenge. If he blames someone else after the game im going to lose my fucking mind. It's not on anyone else except for him.
Mook, you're 100% right.
we lose, that is the turning point.
Absolutely
A miracle? They're winning the game with 7 outs to go and a solid pen
Zero problem with it whatsoever. Green simply didn't have it tonight.
(Forgive me for ever complaining about trading Blake Rutherford.)
I am much more upset with Girardi than the ump.
And why did Sanchez call back to back sliders at the same location?
And why did Sanchez call back to back sliders at the same location?
He didn't. Green missed the location badly.
Bird barely misses a hit... grounds out to 3rd.
What a fucking disaster.
I like Girardi, but this game is the type of game that eventually gets a manager fired.
no challenge...leave DRob in for the 8th... what a choke job by Girardi tonight... created a loss where we had a big win
It was in the binder!
I like Girardi, but this game is the type of game that eventually gets a manager fired.
C'mon man... Robertson looked great and had only thrown 17 pitches.
It was in the binder!
It's on the arms
Makes absolutely no sense.
Now Chapman has been up twice, that's always good, without bringing him in.
I have always been a girardi supporter but honestly this one is so bad that if they lose this game and series I would consider firing him
It's on the arms
That's absurd. The inning is over at 8-3 if Girardi challenges a call that he had no reason not to.
Green was out of that inning. He shouldn't have to get 4 outs, Girardi made him get 4 outs.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Now Chapman has been up twice, that's always good, without bringing him in.
I have always been a girardi supporter but honestly this one is so bad that if they lose this game and series I would consider firing him
Unhittable? Kahnle almost gave up a 3 run HR on Monday.
Wanna complain about the challenge? Fine. But let's not act like everything else was the dumbest thing in the history of mankind.
So he already challenged the Encarnacion play. He didn't have another one. Blame the refs not Joe on this one.
I didn't love taking CC out either. CC had retired 10 of the last 11 he was in a real groove.
This was Chad Green's 2nd bad game in 6 weeks!!!!!
C'mon people, enough with this junk.
He had to get up, pitch, and sit down twice. He rarely ever does that. He did it once this week already, no reason to push it again with Kahnle, Chapman, and Betances left down there
Makes absolutely no sense.
Now Chapman has been up twice, that's always good, without bringing him in.
I have always been a girardi supporter but honestly this one is so bad that if they lose this game and series I would consider firing him
his contract is up after season...
So he already challenged the Encarnacion play. He didn't have another one. Blame the refs not Joe on this one.
I didn't love taking CC out either. CC had retired 10 of the last 11 he was in a real groove.
I dont think you understand how challenges actually work in baseball. Plenty of times teams have been without challenges and their challenge is still granted, they just go out there and suggest the umpires look at it and they can.
Not one time has a play come up that ive seen where it wasnt looked at because a manager was out of challenges.
They were able to have that looked at and Joe didn't ask them to. It's on him
8-8.
Good job, but that didn't look like his "A" stuff there.
is that even a question?
He looked fucking great.
LITERALLY NOT ONE FUCKING PERSON HERE said it was a bad idea to leave Robertson in to face Bruce PRIOR to the HR. Then all of a sudden, it was the worst idea in the world.
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A couple of days after he throws 51 pitches and you expect him to go more than 1.1? Shades of fucking Torre in 2004 with Gordon.
He looked fucking great.
LITERALLY NOT ONE FUCKING PERSON HERE said it was a bad idea to leave Robertson in to face Bruce PRIOR to the HR. Then all of a sudden, it was the worst idea in the world.
I said it out loud to my dog. Same with the early yank on CC, let him finish that damn inning.
she done put the whammy on this game at that point
Frazier singles to start the inning.
If strategy wasn't discussed and criticized, message boards wouldn't exist. I guess we should just all sit here with pom poms and never criticize anything, BBI would be so fun.
Who knew you needed to play in the majors or be a manager to know not challenging the play in the 6th was mind numbing.
players/managers/coaches lose 99% of games, not umps.
and yet every game there are a handful of people who want to blame it on the guys in stripes/black
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
players/managers/coaches lose 99% of games, not umps.
and yet every game there are a handful of people who want to blame it on the guys in stripes/black
always
I wonder if they IBB Sanchez.
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fuck the Mets for giving away Bruce for nothing. Useless sacks of shit that they always are
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
They did turn down better deals prospect wise just to save money. What are you doing on a message board if you dont think anyone can discuss or criticize anything that happens? Are you wearing your skirt waving your pom poms every night?
What happened to protecting the plate with two strikes?
So go fuck yourself, DCOrange
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In comment 13633765 MookGiants said:
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fuck the Mets for giving away Bruce for nothing. Useless sacks of shit that they always are
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
They did turn down better deals prospect wise just to save money. What are you doing on a message board if you dont think anyone can discuss or criticize anything that happens? Are you wearing your skirt waving your pom poms every night?
Pom poms? No but I can put together sentences without cursing every time I post. FYI - the majority of people out here can complete sentences without curses. And most, despite never standing up to your ridiculous rants, laugh at your sounding like a moron.
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In comment 13633770 DCOrange said:
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In comment 13633765 MookGiants said:
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fuck the Mets for giving away Bruce for nothing. Useless sacks of shit that they always are
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
They did turn down better deals prospect wise just to save money. What are you doing on a message board if you dont think anyone can discuss or criticize anything that happens? Are you wearing your skirt waving your pom poms every night?
Pom poms? No but I can put together sentences without cursing every time I post. FYI - the majority of people out here can complete sentences without curses. And most, despite never standing up to your ridiculous rants, laugh at your sounding like a moron.
Not that it has much place in a game thread, but the Mets were roundly criticized for taking less for Bruce in exchange for dumping all his salary.
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In comment 13633770 DCOrange said:
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In comment 13633765 MookGiants said:
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fuck the Mets for giving away Bruce for nothing. Useless sacks of shit that they always are
I bet they turned down better deals just to piss you off so we can all read your typical ridiculous curse filled rant
.
They did turn down better deals prospect wise just to save money. What are you doing on a message board if you dont think anyone can discuss or criticize anything that happens? Are you wearing your skirt waving your pom poms every night?
Pom poms? No but I can put together sentences without cursing every time I post. FYI - the majority of people out here can complete sentences without curses. And most, despite never standing up to your ridiculous rants, laugh at your sounding like a moron.
Please bring something, anything, to this board. The next thing you bring to this board besides basically being a cheerleader will be the first. Message boards are designed for doing exactly what people on here are doing, discussing the game and second guessing decisions. If no one had an opinion besides ex players and managers, TV wouldn't exist, and sports wouldn't exist because no one would give a shit to watch.
You came here, brought nothing besides basically saying no one can ever criticize anything when it comes to sports unless they played professionally or coached. Then you made a fool of yourself responding to the Mets post, when they did in fact trade him for nothing and got ripped apart for it by everyone at the time because all they wanted to do was save money.
Deep breaths, Mook, channel that energy over to Cleveland...
Can you imagine the backlash if they traded him to the Yanks and he was the mission piece? They would be burning down the rotunda at Citi.
Thank you.
Both are trash.
2 down.
Same here.
Seriously.. remember that Joba bug game?.. you can't make this shit up...
Betances. Has to be.
Does this mean they aren't gonna suck this rookie's dick anymore?
Horrific.
Game ain't over
Was just about to post this
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was not a strike, jesus
Was just about to post this
Cleveland pitches have gotten virtually every borderline call in this series
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.
Game ain't over
I think the balls and strikes have been pretty fair tonight.
I think the balls and strikes have been pretty fair tonight.
Exactly...Judge is 67. Ball four was close, but thats a ball to him
Come on man, this is a little extreme. The Giants suckiness aside, its a great time to be a Yankee fan. Theyre proving theyre not quite ready to take out one of the best teams in baseball, but theyre not far from reaching that level.
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to suffer through the Giants bone headedness, but tonight having to endure it with the yanks. Not a great time to be a NY sports fan.
Come on man, this is a little extreme. The Giants suckiness aside, its a great time to be a Yankee fan. Theyre proving theyre not quite ready to take out one of the best teams in baseball, but theyre not far from reaching that level.
They're a year ahead of schedule. No one expected them to make the playoffs this season.
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to suffer through the Giants bone headedness, but tonight having to endure it with the yanks. Not a great time to be a NY sports fan.
Come on man, this is a little extreme. The Giants suckiness aside, its a great time to be a Yankee fan. Theyre proving theyre not quite ready to take out one of the best teams in baseball, but theyre not far from reaching that level.
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In comment 13633924 Beer Man said:
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to suffer through the Giants bone headedness, but tonight having to endure it with the yanks. Not a great time to be a NY sports fan.
Come on man, this is a little extreme. The Giants suckiness aside, its a great time to be a Yankee fan. Theyre proving theyre not quite ready to take out one of the best teams in baseball, but theyre not far from reaching that level.
Not at all. If the Yanks lose tonight, they have only their selves to blame. First Joe's bone head decision to not challenge the hit batsmen, then Torreyes bone headed play to get picked off at 2nd
Im with you, this game has been a skull fuck - just saying the big picture is still very bright.
4 called strikes in one inning that weren't
Such crap.
They said he only averaged like 83 per start this year and he was losing it a little.
After that last inning I almost want the Yanks to pull a Tigers and have the catcher intentionally miss a fastball so the ump takes it in the face
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Wants to punch this umpire in the face?
After that last inning I almost want the Yanks to pull a Tigers and have the catcher intentionally miss a fastball so the ump takes it in the face
+1
Can't believe the tigers got away with that btw
This is fucking sickening
Actually, I can, because it's not a strike
Can't tell if he's having problem judging the curve or not. Seems like the Bauer Syndrome.
It was a better pitch than two of the calls against Bird
Oh and it was a foul tip too? Outstanding
Dellin getting tired; fast guy on 1st... this won't end well
Fairly sure you can as long as the pitcher has faced at least one batter previous
Let's come back next year even better , much better
We skipped 1996, this was 97, next year is 1998
Some series/games managers/coaches never recover from. This looks like one of those to me.
Season basically thrown down the drain because he doesn't challenge something that was clear to everyone watching. Tough to swallow
Thanks Joe. Thanks Toe.
We've been lucky enough to witness far far far more great moments than just about any fan base. I've been watching since '76. That is by far the shittiest loss I've ever seen.
Toe shit the bed by getting picked off while in scoring position.
Thanks Joe. Thanks Toe.
The lineup was catatonic for 3-4 innings afterwards.
That's not hyperbole. If an NFL coach didn't challenge something that was clearly a fumble that essentially would ice a playoff game and then lost, he would lose his job.
Right in time for the rangers and Knicks... Sigh...
What the fuck was the downside?
Let fucking Holliday start Sunday.
I know we are a year early, but this is a tough way to lose.
Let fucking Holliday start Sunday.
I was wondering earlier where the fuck Holliday is. One playoff tested guy with good pitch selection and power. Yea let's sit him and not have him hit all series.
Talking about not wanting to break a pitchers rhythm and 30 second bullshit.
Sanchez was adamant that he was hit, and there is nothing to lose by challenging.
THE FUCKING INNING WAS OVER IF YOU CHALLENGE YOU FUCKING IDIOT. It wasn't the difference between a foul ball and a HBP, it was the difference between a strikeout, end of inning and a HBP.
Seriously, fire him now. That explanation was worse than blaming someone else.
All he needed to know was Sanchez knew it hit the knob. You have no risk in challenging at that point.
They basically took his bullshit explanation and didn't hammer him on it
Same page here. As I said earlier. Joe's non-challenge was Grady Little '03 level incompetence and that cost Little his job. I like Joe a lot and the main reason I wouldn't fire him is because I don't see a clear cut replacement.
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One of the worst losses in Yankees postseason history.
We've been lucky enough to witness far far far more great moments than just about any fan base. I've been watching since '76. That is by far the shittiest loss I've ever seen.
Game 4 of 2004 ALCS has to take the cake, but this is right up there.
He was pitching great in this game. Oddly enough, had he not pitched so well Joe probably would've pulled him and used Chappy for Bruce.
I mean a bit of offense would help too.
Now he's basically enforcing a rule that umpires don't enforce on himself. They didn't tell him he had to give a decision he gave it to them himself because he was thinking of a dumb rule that they never even enforce and weren't trying to enforce.
Just trust what sanchez and chisenhall did.
They have to fire him. Any manager that could do what he did in that situation can never be trusted in a big spot ever again.
I can't believe what he just said. He actually would have been better off if he threw someone under the bus
Chad Green was already out of the flow. He wasn't right from the moment he got out there. It took him forever to get A-Jax out, then he gave up a hard hit double to a shitty hitter.
But this is TERRIBLE fucking managing. No excuse for that shit. Contract is up. Previous poster is right. Let someone else ride this run and steer the ship for the next dynasty of Yankees baseball.
Later Joe.
Yep, and none of the fucking morons in the interview room in Cleveland went after him even 10% as much as they should have.
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He never should have been in that position, not after 51 pitches on Tuesday and 1.1 today
He was pitching great in this game. Oddly enough, had he not pitched so well Joe probably would've pulled him and used Chappy for Bruce.
Robertson also needs to throw the breaking ball there. let him walk if it misses
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In comment 13634026 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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One of the worst losses in Yankees postseason history.
We've been lucky enough to witness far far far more great moments than just about any fan base. I've been watching since '76. That is by far the shittiest loss I've ever seen.
Game 4 of 2004 ALCS has to take the cake, but this is right up there.
naaa '04 was bad but that was over in the first inning. This one we had to be tantalized and tortured for almost 3 hours AFTER the grandslam
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Flaherty and Curry on attack.
Yep, and none of the fucking morons in the interview room in Cleveland went after him even 10% as much as they should have.
Who cares we all know he fucked up. What should they do start a fight?
And thats not even covering choosing not to review. What does that say to a team full of players going all out to win a huge road playoff game?
We ripped Kluber tonight on the road, had an 8-3 lead and choked it away. Just ducking terrible.
I fucking hate our coaches. Hate them.
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In comment 13634071 I am Ninja said:
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Flaherty and Curry on attack.
Yep, and none of the fucking morons in the interview room in Cleveland went after him even 10% as much as they should have.
Who cares we all know he fucked up. What should they do start a fight?
Yes, they all should have had the exact response that Curry and Flaherty did in the studio.
They let him off the hook in the interview. No one challenged him when he basically said he enforced a rule on himself that the umpires werent even enforcing.
Every question in that PC should have been about that 6th inning, from taking CC out to the rest. Each explanation should have been followed up by a question pressing him more. The media in new york knows how to go on the attack against coaches even when they have no business doing so, yet they all sat there on their asses tonight when they needed to attack him
I like Girardi but he lost his job tonight.
Damnit
It's time for him to go anyway.
If I had to guess, I'd say because Chad Green has been the best relief pitcher in all of baseball the second half of the season and really wasn't being used inconsistently with how he's been used all year. Now Green fucking sucked, but let's stop acting like Joe pulled CC out to bring in Sergio Mitre.
I have defended Girardi for years here. I think he's done a good job.
I just see this loss/series as one of those that a manager never recovers from. And I don't want to piss away another year before they realize that.
It was truly a Buck Showalter moment for Girardi
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why Joe took CC out
If I had to guess, I'd say because Chad Green has been the best relief pitcher in all of baseball the second half of the season and really wasn't being used inconsistently with how he's been used all year. Now Green fucking sucked, but let's stop acting like Joe pulled CC out to bring in Sergio Mitre.
I am fine with the CC move. The non-challenge is inexcusable and leaving Betances in was also a horrendous move. We all know Betances cannot pitch with runners on and the leadoff guy got on. Everybody and their mother knew the Indian was stealing. You just allowed a guy to get into scoring position with no outs. Unreal.
AROD?
Every manager has a sell-by date. JOE HAS HIT HIS.
What a clusterfuck.
That about sums it up.
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In comment 13634026 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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One of the worst losses in Yankees postseason history.
We've been lucky enough to witness far far far more great moments than just about any fan base. I've been watching since '76. That is by far the shittiest loss I've ever seen.
Game 4 of 2004 ALCS has to take the cake, but this is right up there.
Honestly I haven't been this emotional about a baseball game since then.. I'm downright angry right now.. and to see the Indians celebrating like they won the world series makes me want to puke.. I turned the tv back in after 15 minutes and there is Jay Bruce with Gatorade dropping down his hat still on the field being interviewed... FUCK!!!!
CC hasn't thrown a bunch of pitches for most of the year, they had their bullpen ready to go in a must win situation.
Zero issue bringing Greene in.
I would not have brought Robertson out for what I consider is his 3rd inning of work. I know outs wise it wasn't, but the bigger thing to me is how many times he had to pitch, sit down, pitch, sit down, pitch. He did it the other night for the first time all year and threw 50+ pitches, I don't push that envelope again tonight.
But that's not that huge of a deal, I can see both sides of it at least.
The non-challenge is a fireable offense.
Look, he's a good man, solid, etc. But he ain't the guy to lead the future.
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In comment 13634076 MookGiants said:
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In comment 13634071 I am Ninja said:
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Flaherty and Curry on attack.
Yep, and none of the fucking morons in the interview room in Cleveland went after him even 10% as much as they should have.
Who cares we all know he fucked up. What should they do start a fight?
Yes, they all should have had the exact response that Curry and Flaherty did in the studio.
They let him off the hook in the interview. No one challenged him when he basically said he enforced a rule on himself that the umpires werent even enforcing.
Every question in that PC should have been about that 6th inning, from taking CC out to the rest. Each explanation should have been followed up by a question pressing him more. The media in new york knows how to go on the attack against coaches even when they have no business doing so, yet they all sat there on their asses tonight when they needed to attack him
Mook Joe is a stand up guy who would never throw a coach or player under the bus to the media. I could be 100% wrong here, but I bet his replay guy told him it wasn't clear enough to challenge and he came up with that lame BS excuse to keep from giving the real reason. Maybe I'm wrong but who knows, either way fighting him in the interview room accomplishes nothing.
- Robby mowed through 4 guys on only 17 pitches
- If we could trust Betances, this game would've ended a long time ago in victory
- I don't think he really wanted to have to get 6 outs with Chappy
They had an issue earlier in the year with not getting the slow mo replay in time to challenge something. They apparently had it again tonight. He didn't challenge that time either as a result.
The media ALWAYS hammers these coaches over stuff like this. Hell they go after coaches when they have no reason to and they just want to start shit. Why all of them in that room chose to give him a pass tonight when hammering him was warranted is beyond me.
Gardner looked horrific at the plate tonight. If there was any guy who needed to bunt it was him. Problem is, when you're supposed to bunt, you can't be pulling the bat back unless the pitch is completely unhittable. No matter WTF happens, Toe can't get picked off by a catcher in that spot at second base. Can't fucking happen.
Just a lot of dumb shit that leads to losing a playoff game in that situation.
Centerstage starring John Sterling is on YES right now. Tune in! It's exhilarating!
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Scored early and often.. CC pitched well.. but errors early on and bad coaching cost us this game.. plus once we got kicked in the mouth we didn't know how to regroup and bounce back. Encouraging but signs of a young team. Playing a team like this you can't afford mistakes they will make you pay. I hope we learn from this and add some solid veteran leadership this off-season.
lets get rid of Chase Headley while we're at it. Just suck it up and eat the last year of that blundered contract. How many weak ground balls can one man hit in a single season? Fuckin A with Headley, I'm sick of him. Todd Frazier can hit the road too, I am not impressed with any aspect of his game. In a league where everyone and their mother are hitting homeruns I'm sure we could find someone else on the cheap to run into a few homers and hit below the Mendoza line. Ellsbury, ah forget it.
Agreed. I want Headley off the team.
Torres at 3B next year. Let Torreyes or a vet play april and may if Torres needs a little extra seasoning from the injury
Let's not let Girardi's monumental blunder obscure the fact that the game was one of the sorriest attempts at umping a game I've ever seen. That clown should be hitting the bricks just like Girardi.
Machado/Didi/Gleyber/Bird/Sanchez around the horn is what I've been dreaming of. Judge/Hicks/Gardy next year in the OF, with Clint and then Florial (later on) working their way in, too. We'll bludgeon teams. But those are off-season convos - hopefully we avoid them for a few more days.
Let's not let Girardi's monumental blunder obscure the fact that the game was one of the sorriest attempts at umping a game I've ever seen. That clown should be hitting the bricks just like Girardi.
I'm with this. Castro shipped for a decent starter would be great. Machado's glove and bat combo will be well appreciated having watched Frazier fuck up twice in the field today, and that's with him supposing to be our sure hander at 3rd.
We haven't had the production at third that we deserve since A-Rod.
and fuck the GD Indians.
Then he said he left Green in (who clearly didnt have his good stuff) bc Lindor was 0-2 lifetime against Green. A sample size of 2 fucking ABs, so he leaves in a pitcher who just got ripped by Yan Gomes?!?!
Ive groused about the binders derisive nickname many times, but its so fucking accurate and spot on after last nights debacle I hereby concede the debate now and forever.
Then he said he left Green in (who clearly didnt have his good stuff) bc Lindor was 0-2 lifetime against Green. A sample size of 2 fucking ABs, so he leaves in a pitcher who just got ripped by Yan Gomes?!?!
Ive groused about the binders derisive nickname many times, but its so fucking accurate and spot on after last nights debacle I hereby concede the debate now and forever.
If they lose this series, do you think Joe just lost his job?
Beating Kluber to go even up in the series coming the the Stadium would have been huge.
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Criminal. The I didnt want to disrupt the pitchers rhythm line is utter shit.
Then he said he left Green in (who clearly didnt have his good stuff) bc Lindor was 0-2 lifetime against Green. A sample size of 2 fucking ABs, so he leaves in a pitcher who just got ripped by Yan Gomes?!?!
Ive groused about the binders derisive nickname many times, but its so fucking accurate and spot on after last nights debacle I hereby concede the debate now and forever.
If they lose this series, do you think Joe just lost his job?
Beating Kluber to go even up in the series coming the the Stadium would have been huge.
I concede Im clearly still very wound up, like most of us...so my first reaction is how can he not lose his job?
I wonder how Cashman feels about it, or the rest of the Yanks brass. I suspect Cash is very frustrated, but I have no doubt Levine, Trost and the rest of that merry band of bean counters love Girardi, bc he never embarrasses them off the field and likely doesnt complain much.
So the question may be...whos calls is it really?
And I disagree with those who say C.C. didnt give you much past that all year anyway. Joe used the 100 pitch barometer on C.C. when it came to taking him out this year. C.C. was in cruise control and the way he was pitching could have easily gone seven.
Joe got in the way this time. Its his managerial style. He makes moves because thats what managers do. Not because its necessary. I was shocked when took C.C. out. Even as he brought Chad Green in I thought well its Chad Green but at that point why? C.C. was in complete control and he had a five run lead with one out in the sixth against and an Indian team that couldnt figure him out.
It wasnt a one run lead and the Indians pushing the issue. Joe blew it. Then he compounds the problem but not listening to his catcher late in the game and doesnt challange because his replay guy cant give him an up or down signal. What did he have to lose. In this case after that performance he may have engineered his way out of New York.
He is formulaic to a fault . However, this time he made some moves outside the box. Pitching Robertson a second inning. I've always advocated that. Well, Alabamie fell behind Bruce , whose mind set was not to swing at a curveball, So he keep giving him curveballs . Sanchez switched at 2-0. Bruce knew exactly where he was going with the ball.
But Frazier gave Cleveland 2 runs early. You're playing in a stadium that has always played small, just like Camden. When batters hit the ball on the ground in MLB this season , the Out rate is 86 %. So CC got porked. First by Frazier, then Girardi.
8-3 with the world's best pull pen . 11 outs to go. Now they probably will get swept because the Indians left-handed bats will pepper the right-field seats against Tanaka.
Lastly it looks like the umpire Union has decided that the Indians are going to end the streak this season. The field has been tilted to their advantage . Tough combo to beat because the team is damn good.
Fuck!!!!!!
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
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Fire. This. Man.
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
As a Yankee fan Ive grown tired of Girardis cookie cutter approach to managing. He has blown a lot of games over the years by inserting himself into the equation simply because its what his notebook tells him to do. Not what the action on the field indicates. And boy, last night was the poster child for that. He made one bad move after the next. And one bad non move after the next. He pushed all the buttons last night and they were all wrong. It was whack a mole at its worst.
On my way to let out my moms dogs last night Jawn and Susan were joking about what the stadium would look like Sunday. John said "if they hold on to win" and Susan said "You think they are coming back on this bullpen..... With the way CC is pitching""
Well Jawn and Susan. Joe Girardi wasn't having any part of the easy win. Fucking season ruined by the monkey headed asshole.
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In comment 13634096 Kyle in NY said:
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Fire. This. Man.
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
I'm not paying attention because I'm speculating that the umps won't over turn a bang bang call that all of us to a man aren't even sure tipped the bat. We think it tipped the bat. We want to believe it tipped the bat especially in the heat of the moment last night. But we don't know anything. It was a close play. Umps fuck up easy calls but you're certain they get this one?
He should have challenged. It's still not a fireable offense.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
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In comment 13634206 djm said:
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In comment 13634096 Kyle in NY said:
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Fire. This. Man.
Are you firing the man to punish or because there's a better replacement?
You better think long and hard on that one.
They aren't firing girardi because he failed to challenge a call that may not even get over turned and they aren't firing girardi because he pulled CC for a red hot bullpen.
It wasn't a good game for Joe but he's not getting fired. And you don't fire guys because the mgr won't Recover. That doesn't even make sense. The bp blew it. It's painful I know.
If you don't think that call would have been overturned then you're simply not paying attention. Stop with the contrarian nonsense. If there was ever anything that nobody could take the contrarian view on, it is absolutely this non challenge. No excuse for it
I'm not paying attention because I'm speculating that the umps won't over turn a bang bang call that all of us to a man aren't even sure tipped the bat. We think it tipped the bat. We want to believe it tipped the bat especially in the heat of the moment last night. But we don't know anything. It was a close play. Umps fuck up easy calls but you're certain they get this one?
He should have challenged. It's still not a fireable offense.
Come on man. It's obvious that you didn't see the same replays as the rest of us. They showed the slow mo close up and it clear as day hit the knob of the bat ONLY. And this replay would have been available to the replay crew had Joe challenged. I honestly have no idea how you could sit here today and say that none of us know whether it hit the batter or not. All of the evidence is there.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
2) Let CC have more leash given the pen is tired anyways and he looked good
3) get Bettances out there with the lea
4) bring in Chapman to face Bruce
but instead he went 0-4.... and here we are.
I would also like to see Matt H get an AB in extras over Torreyes or Headley-
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Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
Ugh..soUgh..so many typos from doing this on my phone. The first couple of lines should be:
I disagree. He made critical mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBP?
But last night was really bad.
To me, the second most obvious blunder (missed replay being the first, obviously) is not pulling Betances once the lead off guy got on. Dellin's inability to slow down the running game is known, real, and absolutely fatal in that situation even before factoring in that he'd already gone 2+ innings.
You simply can not be handing them second base in that situation. Jackson got a bad jump, stumbled, and still swiped the base without much of an issue.
Inexcusable.
Lost in all the Girardi chatter is another one of his questionable decisions - the fact that they might lose the series without their best pitcher ever taking the mound.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
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Win game 3, Sevy will take us to game5.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Well yeah, it's easy to strike out when the other team refuses to throw strikes but still gets strike calls on every pitch. The ball basically has to be in the dirt for a ball to be called. It's disgusting what they are doing to an MVP candidate
Ah, yes. Girardi isn't at all responsible for last night. Wtf game were you watching?
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Win game 3, Sevy will take us to game5.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Cleveland is really good. I wouldn't even blame Torreyas as I am sure he never expected the catcher to throw a missle from his knees on that pitch. You are not going to see any catcher make a better throw than that.
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Win game 3, Sevy will take us to game5.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Because Chisenhall struck out. Plain and simple. If that is called correctly, no grand slam and the Yankees almost certainly win.
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In comment 13634233 jcn56 said:
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Cleveland's a really good team. Make no mistake, Girardi screwed the pooch last night, but it was one decision really, that happened in a quick timeframe.
Nobody expected much from this team this year, and they were a couple of games away from winning the division. They're in the playoffs. He managed the wildcard game masterfully, working around Severino's busted outing.
I flipped when he didn't challenge last night either - a major blunder - but one decision. The only reason you fire Girardi is if you feel they can't go any further with him, and I haven't seen any evidence of that.
I disagree. Be made criti so mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBO? Second, it may have worked in an isolated win or go home game a couple of nights before, but his use of the bullpencost them the game. As I say, it worked 2 nights earlier, but expecting multiple guys to throw multiple innings is stupid considering none of them were used that way all season. To expect good results twice in 4 days is crazy. To do it with 1 guy is taking a chance. With 2 or more it is a big risk.
The only thing I can say is for those who call him binders, he certainly didn't manage by the book, so you have no complaint. You got what you asked for.
Ugh..soUgh..so many typos from doing this on my phone. The first couple of lines should be:
I disagree. He made critical mistakes that cost them. First, how do you not challenge the HBP?
Matt - I don't disagree that Girardi's blunder last night cost the Yankees the game. However, the smaller ones would have been quickly covered up and forgotten or never happened had the replay been called for.
I just don't see it as justification to dump the guy. He's going to get a ton of shit, and he's earned it. He gave a half-hearted excuse in the media, but essentially owned up to it (saying he'll know better next time).
Had his work game as manager in game 2
It's almost a wash.
Let girardi keep his job, but make it clear we expect a WS in the next 3 years max
I'm sure the umps like replay when it does that.
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Win game 3, Sevy will take us to game5.
He was shitting in his pants against a weak Twins line up what do you will think will happen with the Yankee season on the line against the best team in baseball ?? Speaking of shitting the bed Aaron Judge 7 strike outs in 8 at bats this series
Jesus you're a miserable fuck.
Well maybe if chapman didn't suck this year we could have one the division.
How about this you jackass, "as a catcher" Gary Sanchez told you right away that pitch hit the bat. Trust your players and we win that game easily and have this series under control. That sort of thing cannot possibly win him much favor with the guys in the clubhouse.
This was Buck in Seattle 1995, Grady Little in 2003. I don't think he can come back from this one.
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Liked an instant gram post that called Girardi an imbecile. SMH.
Well maybe if chapman didn't suck this year we could have one the division.
That's almost surely whoever controls Chapman's social media doing that. Still not good though
How about this you jackass, "as a catcher" Gary Sanchez told you right away that pitch hit the bat. Trust your players and we win that game easily and have this series under control. That sort of thing cannot possibly win him much favor with the guys in the clubhouse.
This was Buck in Seattle 1995, Grady Little in 2003. I don't think he can come back from this one.
If they lose the series, Girardi is gone. No new contract. That was a firable offense last night. And his absolute arrogant answer to the media was the icing on the cake.
That said, let's rebound and win this fucking series , we can win 3 straight games.
Francesa saying on air to me that its very possible the Yankees dont bring back Joe Girardi...
I can't get on him for taking out CC. Had CC imploded, people would be calling for his head asking how he could leave in CC with the bullpen arms that were raring to go.
Calling for Girardi to be fired over the non-challenge is ridiculous because it would be punitive rather than doing what's best for the franchise going forward.
The Yankees outperformed expectations this year.
1) The starting pitching plus a lot of good bullpen pitchers got us 90 wins or so. Winning the division with 95 wins or beating the elite teams ( Cleveland and Houston) over the next few years is going to require better starting pitching.
Good starting pitching lessens the risk of needing so many different relief pitchers at innings levels they are not used to.
This is not an elite 100 win team until it has an ace. Hopefully that is Severino. An ace has learned to deliver in big games and master his emotions. We go into next year without an ace.
2) anyone who has to make decisions for a living knows there are few 100% easy decisions. They also know that 1 or 5 or 10% of decisions that are clearly wrong does not make a bad decision maker.
By definition, there are millions of decisions in a spring training to playoff season. IF you get more than what 65% right that's pretty good. 80%? unbelievable. 95%? Unheard of I would imagine. Its a game where winning 65% of games is very very good.
3) Us humans tend to jump on clear bad decisions. A bad decision is not a bad decision maker.
Torreyes, Frazier, Gardner, Betances, Green, Judge, etc. all made bad decisions or failed to execute.
The decision to order a bunt or to replace CC or to not replace Betances all have plausible risks and rewards.
Data indicates that umpires get about 85-95% of calls right. But they get a much smaller percent of the close and tough calls right. As we all know, 10% of the plays (play being a sequence started by a pitch) are the game. In a game of 300 pitches, 10% is 30 calls. Lets say umps get 70% of the tough ones right. That leaves 9 wrong calls a game. If is well umpired. A manager gets one challenge. He missed. Clearly. Incontrovertibly.
That is no proof he is a bad decision maker.
As for Betances...he got many chances this season. He does not do well with runners on. A severe flaw in a relief pitcher.
Judge got many chances this year. Ditto Chapman. Other managers might have handled those situations differently. Girardi also showed faith in Bird. Not everyone, including some well placed public nuisance ( Levine) did.
Stengel, Durocher, Huggins, McCarthy, Mack, Alston. All made bonehead decisions. All did not find a way to reach all the players. All wrecked talented but sensitive players.
Girardi relies on analytics and probabilities. So does Belichek. Failed him when he calculated the probabilities for covering Manningham...that one play that mattered.
I think he messed up. Badly.
Young players developed and did well under him this year. Many players had career high years. Better metric for making a decision about next years manager?
I don't think taking Cleveland or Houston any of the next few years is going be easy for any manager. I don't think a different manager is the gap that's going to allow them to get past those teams. Starting pitching so the bullpen can shine would be my vote.
Better situational hitting takes a few years in the majors to learn. Situational hitting is vital in the playoffs. Our hitters are not going to be at their peak next year. Maybe the following year. Some like Castro, may never be a smart hitter.
Fun team to root for this year, no matter what happens.
Off season? Starting pitching. imho
This is and still is the plan.
The key for 2018? 2019 is in the bank.
2018 one of the keys will be Otani and his $30 million value at the IFA discount at just $3.8 million.
Have matsui and Tanaka recruit him because it's more about recruitment below age 25 then it is Money for Otani at his age..
1) The starting pitching plus a lot of good bullpen pitchers got us 90 wins or so. Winning the division with 95 wins or beating the elite teams ( Cleveland and Houston) over the next few years is going to require better starting pitching.
Good starting pitching lessens the risk of needing so many different relief pitchers at innings levels they are not used to.
This is not an elite 100 win team until it has an ace. Hopefully that is Severino. An ace has learned to deliver in big games and master his emotions. We go into next year without an ace.
2) anyone who has to make decisions for a living knows there are few 100% easy decisions. They also know that 1 or 5 or 10% of decisions that are clearly wrong does not make a bad decision maker.
By definition, there are millions of decisions in a spring training to playoff season. IF you get more than what 65% right that's pretty good. 80%? unbelievable. 95%? Unheard of I would imagine. Its a game where winning 65% of games is very very good.
3) Us humans tend to jump on clear bad decisions. A bad decision is not a bad decision maker.
Torreyes, Frazier, Gardner, Betances, Green, Judge, etc. all made bad decisions or failed to execute.
The decision to order a bunt or to replace CC or to not replace Betances all have plausible risks and rewards.
Data indicates that umpires get about 85-95% of calls right. But they get a much smaller percent of the close and tough calls right. As we all know, 10% of the plays (play being a sequence started by a pitch) are the game. In a game of 300 pitches, 10% is 30 calls. Lets say umps get 70% of the tough ones right. That leaves 9 wrong calls a game. If is well umpired. A manager gets one challenge. He missed. Clearly. Incontrovertibly.
That is no proof he is a bad decision maker.
As for Betances...he got many chances this season. He does not do well with runners on. A severe flaw in a relief pitcher.
Judge got many chances this year. Ditto Chapman. Other managers might have handled those situations differently. Girardi also showed faith in Bird. Not everyone, including some well placed public nuisance ( Levine) did.
Stengel, Durocher, Huggins, McCarthy, Mack, Alston. All made bonehead decisions. All did not find a way to reach all the players. All wrecked talented but sensitive players.
Girardi relies on analytics and probabilities. So does Belichek. Failed him when he calculated the probabilities for covering Manningham...that one play that mattered.
I think he messed up. Badly.
Young players developed and did well under him this year. Many players had career high years. Better metric for making a decision about next years manager?
I don't think taking Cleveland or Houston any of the next few years is going be easy for any manager. I don't think a different manager is the gap that's going to allow them to get past those teams. Starting pitching so the bullpen can shine would be my vote.
Better situational hitting takes a few years in the majors to learn. Situational hitting is vital in the playoffs. Our hitters are not going to be at their peak next year. Maybe the following year. Some like Castro, may never be a smart hitter.
Fun team to root for this year, no matter what happens.
Off season? Starting pitching. imho
Bill2- You have an unbelievable ability to get past emotional reactions, clearly analyze a situation, and summarize accurately and concisely. But, you don't need me to tell you this. I agree that starting pitching is the key for any team that is a "playoff" capable team. After all, great pitching is normally necessary to finish in postseason. The Yanks have come a long way in a relatively short rebuild but the next step is starting pitching. They could use a stud (or two) and I hope it is a priority in the off season. I am excited for our team's future but there needs to be serious decisions in the off season. Great post.
A big part of Belichick's brilliance is his ability to adjust on the fly, to coach during games when things go wrong. Girardi has no ability to adjust during games and as Sherman points out below Girardi is wound tight when things go off script. Teams take on the personalities of their coaches and mangers. Anyone who watched the game yesterday saw that same scenario play out 15 times this year.
Game 2 of this Division Series was a referendum on this. Girardi took out CC Sabathia because that is what the pre-game plan was, damn that he was at 77 pitches, doing well and more likely to be a runway model than be overwhelmed by the moment.
He stuck with Chad Green despite overt signs that it was not the young rightys night because a season of information about Greens excellence outweighed what was occurring 100 feet from Girardis vantage point.
Girardi let a clearly struggling Green face Francisco Lindor with the bases loaded because he said he liked the history against the brilliant shortstop. That history was two strikeouts in two at-bats in August, which compared to how Green looked Friday night was as relevant as the color of his socks.
Stuff like that happened dozens of times during the year. Sitting Headley early in the season when he was red hot and Didi and Sanchez were on the DL. Sitting Bird after 3 hits and his 1st HR, sitting Hicks after he hit 2 HR's from both sides of the plate in a 3-2 win. Pinch hitting Headley in September for Bird during a comeback attempt when Bird was red hot because a lefty was brought into the game. Stuff like that went on every week. Things that were pre planned before the games played out were followed through with even though they made no sense based on what happened on the field.
Yes the Yankees need more starting pitching and they need the young players to not stumble backwards. Thats not hard to see but they also need a much more aggressive manager that trust his players.
A great strength for Joe Girardi undermines his glaring weakness - ( New Window )
I don't want to choose the pro Girardi side in any debate but that's an easy target as a response
You are the manager. its the inning. Its the game ahead and another tomorrow.
Name each pitcher you would pick instead for each inning?
Go ahead...name the clear clear better choice without hindsight?
Its right in front of you...right this second. Don't choke or get wound too tight now...its just BBI and your intelligence on the line
Name 3 successful clearly better managers with a more aggressive approach?
Name a more aggressive choice set sequence of pitchers per inning from what was available?
Go for it...
Tough to see such a way to lose as last night so shortly after seeing the Giants so far.
I'm convinced no matter what happens Girardi will be back. He's Cashman's guy and I expect Cashman to power play him into being back if he needs to. I don't think it will matter much except to those of us who watch 150 games a year and see the team managed by a passive cyborg.
There are much worse game managers than Girardi in MLB. Terry Collins is as bad as I've ever seen and his team almost won the WS. Joe Madden is considered one of the best and he did everything he could to lose the WS last year unfortunately it didn't work.
So like we both seem agree if the Yankees can improve the starting pitching and the key young players don't fall off a cliff Girardi is just along for the ride anyway.
As long as there is evidence that most players do well playing for him.
The average guys like Ellsbury, Headley, Gardner, Frazier have played to career norms and no worse ( taken as a group)
As long as there is evidence that young players do well and are played ( can you imagine St Joe with his dislike of young players and over reliance on one bullpen arm with this roster and the new players yet to be entrusted to his "judgement" ?).
I could argue that Judge, C Frazier and Hicks and Bird all did well or learned by something/approach Girardi/coaching is doing
Now, the third base coach lost us three games if not more with bonehead decisions to send people this year.
And I would argue that the over all results of the pitchers hide two things that lead me to question the pitching coach:
- When pitchers got inconsistent or lost their mechanics or their feel for a pitch...I did not see that they got fixed as much as they fixed themselves. To his credit, during the long season Girardi stayed with position guys of talent he needed to work things out. That worked with the position players but I am not sure the pitching coaching can claim they helped anyone.
- I don't think Betances or Chapman came into the season with the heads or the shape that matched their reputations. Who do they listen to? Or respect?
Lastly, Sanchez on defense cost us at least one to three games this year.
IF the third base coach and Sanchez on defense did better this year...we get to be Division Leaders and face Houston.
In which case we would be in trouble...not because of the manager but because we need 2 more pitchers and one of them has to be an ace for us to climb the next notch.
Lets watch...every losing team in a playoff series has examples of bad managing. And as you noted many a winner does as well.
One of the attractions of baseball is that the average guy could have managed better. Its obvious.
One of the attractions of football is that it is complex enough to have something to debate all the time.
Both sports draw us in partially because some calls are so boneheaded every game that its tempting to think we could do better
Heres the cutting edge part: New York's pitchers threw only 40.7% fastballs in the series. (Fastballs here are defined as four-seam and two-seam fastballs, not cut fastballs.)
For the Yankees, this was not an anomaly. They throw the fewest fastballs in baseball, and its not even close. They average a fastball rate of just 43.1%. Houston is next lowest at 47.3%.
What makes New York's low fastball usage all the more surprising is that its pitchers have the highest average velocity of any team in baseball (94.3 mph, tied with Pittsburgh).
I asked New York's pitching guru, coach Larry Rothschild, to explain this new world of pitching.
Fastballs get hit, Rothschild said. Its amazing to me to see guys throwing in the upper 90s and they get hit. I dont know how these guys do it. Thats how good major league hitters are. They have adjusted to velocity. To hit upper 90s, you have to gear up for upper 90s. So hitters are going up there to gear up for velocity. And when they do that, they can hit it no matter how hard you throw.
Let's hope the conversation after today is game 4 not what happens in the off season.
Slow down: The Yankees are leading a change in baseball by abandoning a principle of pitching - ( New Window )
The first possibility is on Levine. The second is on Betances. The Third is on a pitching coaches. imho
Gone are the days when Mariano could precisely repeat his motion for years and years on end. That is a kind of physical intelligence and athletic ability few have