I view Reese as a lame duck, and I think I've seen enough from McAdoo to know he's not the guy. I somewhat feel that McAdoo was dealt a bad hand with our offensive line, and in other years I'd give him another year to find out what I had, but our current circumstance of positioning ourselves for a Top 5 pick (possibly even #1 overall pick) changes things. McAdoo is an offensive coach, and I've now seen enough of his offense to know it's not what I want going forward.
I'd fire Reese and McAdoo heading into the bye, promote Spagnuolo to interim head coach, give the offense completely to Sullivan, and get all my ducks in a row to finding my new coach and GM and having a plan ready for the 1st of January, at which time I'd let the rest of the staff go, allowing as much time as possible to plan and prepare for our Top 5 pick.
I'd invest heavily into the Offensive line during Free Agency and draft. I'd draft a Quarterback with the Top pick and let him sit behind Eli until Eli finishes out his contract or retires, which would be ideal for three reasons. One, it allows the offensive line to be fixed. Two, it allows the new Quarterback a chance to be mentored by one of the most professional quarterbacks in the league, and finally, if we have a new coach it gives the rookie two years to learn the new offense. Remember, Rogers sat during McCarthy's first three years, behind Favre.
I honestly think the right Head Coach/GM combo could turn this around in a single offseason, seen it happen before, and we could groom the future QB of the franchise the right way.
I am hoping QB lines up with our 1st pick next April, early indicators are no franchise DE in the mix, possibly no LT either.
They should let him play before a decision about a high pick on a QB is made. They should spend several weeks getting him ready with more reps in practice and then give him several games to play.
Although I would love to see the Giants shake it up........
Certainly someone is going to pay for this in the end.......if it's just BM OR Reese (in which case BM is gone too).
Head Coach? Whomever Coughlin wants
Happy days are here again
The skies above are clear again
So let's sing a song of cheer again
Happy days are here again
I am hoping QB lines up with our 1st pick next April, early indicators are no franchise DE in the mix, possibly no LT either.
It is unprecedented, but if we head into the bye 0-7, that's also unprecedented.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx171009/lessons-winless-2017-new-york-giants-collapse-next-how-got-here-why-trouble-nfl
Claiming a total rebuild is needed is off base and not even really feasible given their obligations. I do think the Giants can turn this around faster than a complete rehauling.
I am hoping QB lines up with our 1st pick next April, early indicators are no franchise DE in the mix, possibly no LT either.
"It would be unlike Mara to fire the GM, let alone GM and HC, and very unlikely to occur during the season."
That is part of the problem. Too much leniency.
McAdoo has totally lost me and I've been on Reese's side for a long time but I think it's just time for a new regime. McAdoo seems like he's in way over his head here and the stubbornness doesn't help matters.
It feels like we've just been re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic for a very long time, so to speak. We did have a good year last year, but it was pretty clearly an outlier.
The problem with that is, who picked Webb, and do you trust their evaluation? In this scenario, you'd be firing the two guys that wanted him.
And let's face it, Reese a. has not had a good third round draft pick in nearly a decade, and b. failed miserably at his last "can't believe he lasted until the 4th round QB because even though he's raw he's got tons of potential" pick Ryan Nassib.
The season is over. Let's see what we have with the QB. If he looks good why wouldn't he have an impact on the decisions on team building in the off season?
Get him ready with weeks of reps and then let him play 4-5 games.
McAdoo has totally lost me and I've been on Reese's side for a long time but I think it's just time for a new regime. McAdoo seems like he's in way over his head here and the stubbornness doesn't help matters.
It feels like we've just been re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic for a very long time, so to speak. We did have a good year last year, but it was pretty clearly an outlier.
+1. I don't think anything happens in-season though, that's not the Giants style.
I also don't think the presence of Webb has any effect on their draft pick. If Webb turns out to be something more than a backup, they'll be able to prove it out in preseason and they'll get something back for him.
You don't saddle the next coach/gm with anything like that. As others said, if he turns out to be something, you can always trade him for later.
You don't pass up the opportunity to draft a QB with the Top Pick over some 3rd round raw project with potential.
They should let him play before a decision about a high pick on a QB is made. They should spend several weeks getting him ready with more reps in practice and then give him several games to play.
How well do you think they can evaluate a rookie QB with practice squad WRs, no running game, and no time to throw? I think evaluating Webb can't be a priority at all. Most likely all you would do is throw him to the lions and crush his confidence.
Nonetheless, they should still be able to get an LT and an OG in the second and third.
It's a no brained for me. It would be foolish not to play him and get some NFL film on the player.
It's a no brained for me. It would be foolish not to play him and get some NFL film on the player.
Who's doing the evaluating? Two guys that would be fired? Would you trust their evaluation anyways?
I feel like Cowher is the right move because a. he wants the Giants, but b. did not want to succeed Coughlin. Now is the time.
Upside? Opportunity to evaluate a young QB.
That's a no brainer.
If he's good enough, he may impact the decisions on team building.
Another factor is everybody is overrrating the college QBs in LA. There may not be a good enough QB prospect with a very high pick.
The streak has nothing to do with it. They can still start Eli and give Webb meaningful reps.
The issue is getting a proper evaluation with no team around him, and worse, ruining his career before it even starts by letting him take that level of beating ie: David Carr.
There is no reason not to play him.
Get him ready with a lot of practice reps. Put him out there with Gallman, Shepard, Engram, Marshall, and anybody else we have at the end of the year. It would give NYG an excellent opportunity to evaluate the player.
The Giants fired Fassel with one game left in the season. One.
Fuck McAdoo.
Frankly, I think we're devoting too much time to talking about him.
We could do that or get him ready to play and evaluate what we have while playing on an NFL field.
We could do that or get him ready to play and evaluate what we have while playing on an NFL field.
Or we could just let the next coach/GM evaluate him when they get here.
2. I don't know how Webb looks in practice, but he didn't put anything on his college tape that would prevent me from drafting another QB.
3. I know the trend is to go younger at head coach, but if McAdoo is indeed fired it wouldn't surprise me to see John Fox as the next head coach (assuming he's fired from Chicago of course). After being burned by going young, I could see Mara leaning towards an experienced and trusted voice to guide the franchise through a transitional period.
4. If Reese is fired a name I would want Mara to look at is Scott Pioli, currently the assistant GM in Atlanta. He was fired as GM in Kansas City after being there from 2009-2012, but in that short time he drafted well and the Chiefs are enjoying some of that fruit now: Eric Berry, Justin Houston, Dontari Poe, Rodney Hudson, Dexter McCluster, and Allen Bailey were all drafted on his watch.
If he plays he could be relevant.
So let him play.
I am hoping QB lines up with our 1st pick next April, early indicators are no franchise DE in the mix, possibly no LT either.
Teams do this all the time and move on. I don't think anyone would say "oh no, what a horrible team to work for" if you fired Reese today.
I'm talking about rebuilding an entire franchise and a couple of you are dialed in with laser like focus on a third round pick QB project dictating some of those MAJOR changes.
Britt in VA : 11:25 am : link : reply[/quote]
I guess we can move on.
Do you pass on taking a QB with the number 1 pick based on that? If the answer is no, why is it so pertinent that you have this evaluation right now?
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If you play him the next GM and coach would have NFL film to evaluate him. Thats the poiint.
I'm talking about rebuilding an entire franchise and a couple of you are dialed in with laser like focus on a third round pick QB project dictating some of those MAJOR changes.
If you have zero interest in evaluating a guy that they had a high grade on before using a top 5 pick on a qb that is by no means a sure thing... then please don’t be the guy rebuilding... evaluating the talent on the roster is necessary- we know what Eli is - let’s get some tape on the kid
Britt in VA: Thank you, sir.
John Mara: [firm tone] Overruled.
Just a suggestion to evaluate the young QB in a lost season.
That it may help the team make decisions while doing NOTHING to hurt the team with these decisions.
I agree that I could see Fox or someone like him coming in because Mara will worry about hiring two coaches in a row that were not ready for the top job. I think there is almost no chance it will not be a "re-tread." That may not be the worst idea since a rebuild may be tougher on an inexperienced coach.
I'm not crazy about Cowher because it just doesn't feel to me like he misses coaching at all. I know it is probably not a popular choice here, but I wouldn't mind seeing Jon Gruden if he wanted the job and gave him a long leash during the rebuild with a QB he could help select.
Just a suggestion to evaluate the young QB in a lost season.
That it may help the team make decisions while doing NOTHING to hurt the team with these decisions.
How high are the Giants on him that they waited until the 3rd round to pick him, and gave him virtually no snaps in the preseason? I think you may have a much more rosey outlook on Webb than the Giants do.
If he plays well then you can have a debate on where he fits going forward.
My counter is this: What do you think Webb could possibly show you that would prevent you from taking a Quarterback if you had the top pick in the draft.
What do you think you're going to see, best case scenario?
If you came to an agreement, you are giving a guy like Cowher a great head start at putting together a coaching staff and plan, with half a season still left to play.
Webb hasn’t proven anything. And can’t prove it by the time the draft comes around. If there is another franchise QB in this draft you take him.
1. I would not draft a QB yet. One of the reasons we have been in this theme In the first place, has been the reluctance to go for the less hyped positions early, guards, DTs, and so on. Sadly, we need at least one more year on this emphasis prior to grabbing the QB. Then bring in your new QB to fit. See, Dallas, Cowboys.
Trade down or go OL in one.
2. Pioli, Fine idea.
Maybe, or maybe sometimes you need to let someone advance in job title, while being smart and insightful about that, which aspects we may have lacked in the Macadoo grab. Advancement opps may widen your pool. But lets not be naïve about who does what in the league.
There is a list of people at Falcons (integration of line play in O system having been their thing), you may need a pile of them. Seems more transferrable than Pats people, for whom it seems a wholistic thing, not just a system.
All that said, obviously, Bill B you would take in any capacity.
3. Its a family business. And we are grateful for it.
But sometimes in -any- such, one needs a dose of humility, self depreciation and humor. Mara needs to be ready to fall on his sword if a new GM requires it, fair or not. Possibly younger Maras can get involved and start in the business.
4. I had a temporary position sorting out similar imbroglio, both in management and financial, a real mess,(in a family owned business, non sport related).
What I found was that there were valuable people on the administrative side...people who had been adding lots of value doing de-facto management functions, by necessity, due to the situation.
At times those people can be advanced and brought into actual management as a bridge. I am not saying that the new GM be the current secretary, but stranger things have happened. One needs a broad look and review, you bring the whole group in. Broaden family involvement, they all probably have skin in the game.
And the big question, and I don't presume to know enough to even have an opinion, is there a drop dead, sure thing franchise quarterback in this draft? Do any of the kids in the conversation have a skill set that much better than Davis Webb?
In any case, I don't see Reese and McAdoo surviving this season. It's not that they are losing; the team seems lost, rudderless, unprepared, undisciplined, no mental toughness. I've been a fan for more than 60 years. The current situation is bad, Allie Sherman, John McVea, Bill Arnsparger, the one whose name shall not be mentioned, bad. Didn't see it coming, but it's here.
The Giants fired Fassel with one game left in the season. One.
Fuck McAdoo.
Tim, this is not accurate. Fassel came to ownership and insisted that he know his status right then and there. They told him he would not be retained and then became public.
This is exactly right. Many teams have had two QBs and then traded one. For example, Montana/Deberg and Rivers/Brees.
Plus, Webb is a longshot
It's an opportunity we should seize and utilize while we have it.
This seems incredibly weak to me.
Just start Webb, if you're going to play him most of the game, put him in the best position to succeed or fail, and if Eli doesn't like it, well, too bad. What's best for him is entirely irrelevant to what is best for the team now. He can deal with it or not, it doesn't really matter anymore.
Crickets.
so if it is changes you're looking for..not happening they want continuity
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The downside of seeing what Webb looks like is ...........
Crickets.
It's not crickets, it's been answered several times.
You could argue both points, and both points have been argued, but at this point, it's just going round and round going nowhere.
Pros:
Get to see what the kid could do in live reps
Cons:
Punish our 14 year starter who's never missed a game by making him a healthy scratch and ruining a 14 year streak of consecutive starts for an unknown rookie just because. Do you know how much pain and effort it probably takes to never miss a start in the NFL in 14 years, especially the last five behind this line? Talk about a slap in the face to somebody that has given you everything.
Throwing out an unprepared rookie to the wolves with no line, no run game, and no WR's. Even if the kid has talent, you're likely to ruin his career by making him shell shocked like David Carr.
Getting the evaluation right now does what exactly? A. The people doing the evaluating likely won't be here next year. B. If you have the number one pick in the draft, or at least a high enough pick that you have your choice of the two best QB's in the draft, is your evaluation of Webb this year going to prevent you from taking a QB with the 1st overall pick? If not, then what is the point?
What's good for him no longer matters in terms of building a good football team going forward. His feelings especially don't matter.
Just like players should always put themselves first, even if fans scream about them being greedy or whatever, teams need to be cold and calculating too.
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In comment 13639230 hitdog42 said:
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The downside of seeing what Webb looks like is ...........
Crickets.
It's not crickets, it's been answered several times.
You could argue both points, and both points have been argued, but at this point, it's just going round and round going nowhere.
Pros:
Get to see what the kid could do in live reps
Cons:
Punish our 14 year starter who's never missed a game by making him a healthy scratch and ruining a 14 year streak of consecutive starts for an unknown rookie just because. Do you know how much pain and effort it probably takes to never miss a start in the NFL in 14 years, especially the last five behind this line? Talk about a slap in the face to somebody that has given you everything.
Throwing out an unprepared rookie to the wolves with no line, no run game, and no WR's. Even if the kid has talent, you're likely to ruin his career by making him shell shocked like David Carr.
Getting the evaluation right now does what exactly? A. The people doing the evaluating likely won't be here next year. B. If you have the number one pick in the draft, or at least a high enough pick that you have your choice of the two best QB's in the draft, is your evaluation of Webb this year going to prevent you from taking a QB with the 1st overall pick? If not, then what is the point?
You should save yourself the trouble of bullshitting the second con and just admit that it's 100% about some Eli emotions that you're having.
I wouldn't advocate breaking the consecutive starts streak just for shits and giggles; let him ride that out if it's important to him. Doesn't mean Webb can't some significant playing time.
Letting the kid see his first live action in the NFL is a step in his development. Generating real NFL game tape is absolutely valuable to the player as well as coaches/FO, whether the current ones stay in place or new ones are brought in.
2. The replacements would still benefit from NFL tape of Webb.
3. None of us knows what Eli's thinking, especially after the knee to the head yesterday. After years of the FO neglecting the OL, maybe he decides to retire?!?
LOL!
And you never said who would take over for JR.
If you want the best GM candidate you hire someone from the another organization, but almost all of them currently have jobs. That means you'd have to promote the Giants' assistant GM, and if you're going to do that, then why fire JR in mid-season in the first place?
And there is absolutely no precedent that I'm aware of for firing a HC in the middle of his second season after he led your team to the playoffs in his first year.
You also run a big risk of getting stuck with the interim HC if the Giants finish up say, 6 - 3, because some will say that he deserves a chance. That's how the Giants got stuck with John McVay in '76, after Ansparger was fired in mid-season.
Why not wait until you see what's available at the end of the year?
The Giants will let this play out and they could certainly make a move. But I would be shocked if either Jerry or Ben were fired in mid-season, just because the fans want their pound of flesh.
I highly doubt Mara would ever do that. I don't think they would relieve Reese ahead of the end of the season, especially in light of the fact that the team won two championships while he was here. I don't think they'd even can McAdoo, simply because they wouldn't want the optics to follow him around either (some people will stupidly suggest that they'll punt to try to hide their mistake, as if firing him a month or a year later magically washes away the stink of failure).
However firing Mac by the bye would be out of the ordinary, and something I said after week 2. I knew this team got gelded by this offensive strategy and have been rooting for 0-7 going into the bye because I really really want to see how this team and ownership reacts.
Exactly. Webb will never show enough this season for me to bypass a more elite qb prospect in next year's draft. That might sound crazy but it's just the truth. And let's be honest, this team isn't fostering anything great let alone great qb play from a raw 3rd round rookie especially with the dearth of receiving talent.
What on earth is Webb really going to show us this season? Maybe a few nice little moments? Great. You're still gonna have more questions than answers at qb.
Not to mention Webb won't play unless Eli gets hurt anyway. You know it. I know it.
Webb would have a garbage OL, no RBs, and without a serious weapon at WR even if Marshall and Shepard heal. It's a recipe for disaster.
I dont see why Eli's feelings matter that much. He's not bigger than the team. Everyone gets offended when teams have to move on; he will not hold it against NYG longer term. I agree Giants should trot Webb out at least in some garbage time capacity and get some tape on him so I agree with KWALL. Not like eli has to take every snap right now.
Let him come in the second half. Let him come in garbage time when we're getting blown out (it's coming).
2) I would fire Reese, McAdoo, and the entire staff the day after the season ends. Let the new GM hire the HC of his choice and the two of them compile the entire coaching staff to their liking.
3) There is no way in Hell I start Webb a single game. If you're going to do that, then you might as well trade Eli right now.
Let him come in the second half. Let him come in garbage time when we're getting blown out (it's coming).
I do too. Maybe I'm a bit sentimental about Eli, but I also think it would tarnish NYG's reputation a bit. It's served as a competitive advantage - Eli did choose to come here over SD - wasting it away by tarnishing a record that Eli cares deeply about would bother me.
I just don't get this post.
Eli choosing to come here or a record of consecutive starts shouldnt dictate how we evaluate players. He's one player. And an older player. A games started streak? The team is run by fools if it's a factor. The team hasn't won a game and there is no chance of winning more than a couple of games. Time to start getting ready for next year.
In a wasted season, giving a young QB playing time and giving Eli a few games off would not tarnish the reputation of NYG. Just the opposite, it would and should be considered a logical step to improvement.
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I have a problem with benching a healthy Eli so it can happen.
Let him come in the second half. Let him come in garbage time when we're getting blown out (it's coming).
I do too. Maybe I'm a bit sentimental about Eli, but I also think it would tarnish NYG's reputation a bit. It's served as a competitive advantage - Eli did choose to come here over SD - wasting it away by tarnishing a record that Eli cares deeply about would bother me.
I agree with this. Plus he can play while the draft pick learns next year. No need to piss him off going out the door. The way Tom left sucked. We let Eli walk out feeling he was jilted would definitely tarnish this great era of Giants football.
To be blunt, he's not though. Other than a handful of ex Giants who would be a little mouthy on twitter about it, it'd blow over quick and Mara would just have to accept that when they have their reunion nights and what have you they wouldn't have Eli for them.
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it would tarnish NYG's reputation a bit. It's served as a competitive advantage - Eli did choose to come here over SD - wasting it away by tarnishing a record that Eli cares deeply about
I just don't get this post.
Eli choosing to come here or a record of consecutive starts shouldnt dictate how we evaluate players. He's one player. And an older player. A games started streak? The team is run by fools if it's a factor. The team hasn't won a game and there is no chance of winning more than a couple of games. Time to start getting ready for next year.
In a wasted season, giving a young QB playing time and giving Eli a few games off would not tarnish the reputation of NYG. Just the opposite, it would and should be considered a logical step to improvement.
I could 100% be wrong - I'm not an expert in player psychology - I think the optics of Eli's potential exit matter in reinforcing how the Giants are viewed league-wide.
You can still evaluate Webb and let Eli maintain his streak.
We're talking about giving Webb 4-7 games. Get him some practice rep and let's see what he can do for a team with no shot at making the playoffs. Eli should be OK with giving up the playing time.
And if he had a problem with it? That would be something the team shouldn't really care about it while they try to get this thing fixed.
Also think we have a lot further to fall unfortunately before there is a firing at the end of the season, at least for Mac. If he fully loses the team perhaps. Reese could be gone but I still question whether Mara would house clean like people want, I just do not see it in him.
We're talking about giving Webb 4-7 games. Get him some practice rep and let's see what he can do for a team with no shot at making the playoffs. Eli should be OK with giving up the playing time.
And if he had a problem with it? That would be something the team shouldn't really care about it while they try to get this thing fixed.
I don't think he'd have a problem with it, I'D have a problem with it as a fan. You don't throw away a 14 year iron man streak for some scrub.
Eli has earned the right to start until he can't, or is unable to perform the duties. Bench him for injury, bench him for poor performance, don't bench him for some scrub 3rd round pick.
Talk about an anti-climatic ending to an amazing streak. It would be a slap in the face to a lifetime of hard ass work.
Also think we have a lot further to fall unfortunately before there is a firing at the end of the season, at least for Mac. If he fully loses the team perhaps. Reese could be gone but I still question whether Mara would house clean like people want, I just do not see it in him.
I don't think it's going to happen, either. I just said if I was in charge, that's how I would handle it.
Well I guess we'll see, won't we?
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how you can draft a QB without knowing what you have in Webb.
Webb hasn’t proven anything. And can’t prove it by the time the draft comes around. If there is another franchise QB in this draft you take him.