Nice bounce back games since Friday.
Was very emotional at the post game presser last night. I hope he's back. I think he does a great job 90% of the time and I don't think he's fully appreciated here.
My problem was that he didn't own the mistake of the non-challenge. Â
So, does that mean he would do something stupid like that in the future?
Well, now it is dumb and dumber time. Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber you go out and do something like that .... AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!
also make terrible decisions based on gut, though. More often than not, relying on his binder and data is a good move. He's too reliant on it, but it's the right idea.
He's not without flaws, but he's probably better than most managers and does a great job with the bullpen which, for this team is important.
Odds are that if they part ways with Girardi, they'll end up with someone worse.
He did own up to it after the initial shock the day of. Joe is a good manager and if they don’t get to the summit this year it would be a shame if he didn’t have an opportunity to get there with these new young Turks. He deserves the chance because he is as key to their development at the major league level as anyone and he knows them, he understands them, and knows their capabilities. Joe needs to be back next year,
also make terrible decisions based on gut, though. More often than not, relying on his binder and data is a good move. He's too reliant on it, but it's the right idea.
He's not without flaws, but he's probably better than most managers and does a great job with the bullpen which, for this team is important.
Odds are that if they part ways with Girardi, they'll end up with someone worse.
Bringing in betances last night after kahnle was working in the pen was idiotic. Do or die and trying to appease betances
He's great with young guys. His weakness is his stupid binder and the fact that he has zero feel for a game and for his players.
I hate to be blunt but that's utter horse crap. He has plenty of feel for his players and had to deal with a lot of shit this year. Every regular besides Judge and Gardy missed at least a month this year (And Judge may as well have the way he hit from the All Star game till September). The way he managed the WC game was epic. He fucked up Friday big time(though I think he's still covering for his replay guy not getting him info fast enough) and yes he can be stiff in the way he manages by the #'s and he can gain and lose trust of relievers to quickly(not even getting Chad Green up last night). However the good outweighs the bad and those who want him out need to name a suitable replacement because the Yankees manager position is not a plug and play proposition. Its not like taking over the DBacks or the Rockies. You have a lot more shit to deal with.
He's great with young guys. His weakness is his stupid binder and the fact that he has zero feel for a game and for his players.
I hate to be blunt but that's utter horse crap. He has plenty of feel for his players and had to deal with a lot of shit this year. Every regular besides Judge and Gardy missed at least a month this year (And Judge may as well have the way he hit from the All Star game till September). The way he managed the WC game was epic. He fucked up Friday big time(though I think he's still covering for his replay guy not getting him info fast enough) and yes he can be stiff in the way he manages by the #'s and he can gain and lose trust of relievers to quickly(not even getting Chad Green up last night). However the good outweighs the bad and those who want him out need to name a suitable replacement because the Yankees manager position is not a plug and play proposition. Its not like taking over the DBacks or the Rockies. You have a lot more shit to deal with.
Look at some of the humps managing in the playoffs - Dusty, Farrell, etc.
That’s a pretty funny autocorrect lol.
I’ve always been a Girardi backer. I was pretty wound up after game 2 and succumbed to the ‘he has to go’ knee jerk reaction.
With some time to think back, I’m OK if he stays - but he could really use a bench coach and/or pitching coach to check his decisions a bit.
Torre was at his best when he had Zimmer next to him. Rob Thomson, Larry Rothschild, Tony Pena all seem like veteran, respected coaches...I don’t think we can really know if they’re co-signing every ‘binder’ move, or sometimes disagreeing and Joe won’t he’d their advice.
He has for the most part been pretty quick and decisive with the hook when it’s obvious a reliever doesn’t have it. The one glaring exception being leaving Chad Green in too long in game 2, when it seemed obvious he didn’t have it.
But as was posted by others - there are some lousy managers leading successful teams in MLB...not many I’d take over Girardi.
Who would you replace him with that would provide a seamless transition. Joe has been through the ups and downs with these guys and they are on the verge if not this year, which no one in their right mind predicted this, although it is clear they have tons of talent, of being one of the top teams in baseball. And this experience will only help to build on that.
Joe has kept this team in the hunt year in and year with a winning record and an aging roster and not nearly the talent he has now. Who better to guide them for the foreseeable future.
In the end, I'm mostly indifferent. There aren't very many better managers out there who are free. I would seriously consider bringing Buck back if it were possible. Otherwise, Girardi is fine.
Look at some of the humps managing in the playoffs - Dusty, Farrell, etc.
That’s a pretty funny autocorrect lol.
I’ve always been a Girardi backer. I was pretty wound up after game 2 and succumbed to the ‘he has to go’ knee jerk reaction.
With some time to think back, I’m OK if he stays - but he could really use a bench coach and/or pitching coach to check his decisions a bit.
Torre was at his best when he had Zimmer next to him. Rob Thomson, Larry Rothschild, Tony Pena all seem like veteran, respected coaches...I don’t think we can really know if they’re co-signing every ‘binder’ move, or sometimes disagreeing and Joe won’t he’d their advice.
He has for the most part been pretty quick and decisive with the hook when it’s obvious a reliever doesn’t have it. The one glaring exception being leaving Chad Green in too long in game 2, when it seemed obvious he didn’t have it.
But as was posted by others - there are some lousy managers leading successful teams in MLB...not many I’d take over Girardi.
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you in now tempering my emotions but I still will never understand the why. He had 2 appeals,it was the 6th inning & the umpires took over in the 7th.There was no need for video confirmation,just appeal, particularly since Sanchez heard the tip. Thompson is worthless-a good bench coach would know the rules,advise Girardi accordingly & all of this could have been avoided. But,Thompson was moved off as 3B coach because he sucked but he doesn't suck any less as a bench coach.Think Zimmer would have told Torre to appeal?
But now all of that is in the rear view mirror & only tomorrow matters! Let's Go Yankees!
RE: My problem was that he didn't own the mistake of the non-challenge. Â
So, does that mean he would do something stupid like that in the future?
Well, now it is dumb and dumber time. Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber you go out and do something like that .... AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!
He absolutely did own up to it the next day and said he's learned from it. So there's that.
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
Oh please. We don't need Mets fans coming on here to tell us freaking spoiled we are. Get lost, clown.
but overall I think he is a very good manager and this team would likely be worse off without him.
that said, there seems to be a growing sentiment that both sides would prefer a clean break after this season, so unless they win the WS my assumption is he will be gone.
He did own up to it after the initial shock the day of. Joe is a good manager and if they don’t get to the summit this year it would be a shame if he didn’t have an opportunity to get there with these new young Turks. He deserves the chance because he is as key to their development at the major league level as anyone and he knows them, he understands them, and knows their capabilities. Joe needs to be back next year,
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
also make terrible decisions based on gut, though. More often than not, relying on his binder and data is a good move. He's too reliant on it, but it's the right idea.
He's not without flaws, but he's probably better than most managers and does a great job with the bullpen which, for this team is important.
Odds are that if they part ways with Girardi, they'll end up with someone worse.
Bringing in betances last night after kahnle was working in the pen was idiotic. Do or die and trying to appease betances
This is what sucks about being a Yankees fan. Most fans have no idea what they are talking about, but they have no problem spewing nonsense. Yeah, he brought in Betances to appease him. Not that we had a 4 run lead late and it was a good opportunity to get Betances right so he can help us this postseason.
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
People can mock you, but you are right. NY fans in general are spoiled and reactionary. Girardi is a great manager(hes certainly not perfect) and we are lucky to have him. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
People can mock you, but you are right. NY fans in general are spoiled and reactionary. Girardi is a great manager(hes certainly not perfect) and we are lucky to have him. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
I'm really not sure how this is a NY thing. With emotions running high like the other night, in a game that big, you would be getting fan backlash in ANY market. We only pay attention to the NY teams but fans all over the country would have lost their minds in that situation.
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
Oh please. We don't need Mets fans coming on here to tell us freaking spoiled we are. Get lost, clown.
whether you need it or not, some yankee fans are spoiled to the point where they expect all-stars at every position and a manager who makes all the right moves. So right back at ya nancy-boy!
RE: RE: RE: His strength is managing personalities Â
He's great with young guys. His weakness is his stupid binder and the fact that he has zero feel for a game and for his players.
I hate to be blunt but that's utter horse crap. He has plenty of feel for his players and had to deal with a lot of shit this year. Every regular besides Judge and Gardy missed at least a month this year (And Judge may as well have the way he hit from the All Star game till September). The way he managed the WC game was epic. He fucked up Friday big time(though I think he's still covering for his replay guy not getting him info fast enough) and yes he can be stiff in the way he manages by the #'s and he can gain and lose trust of relievers to quickly(not even getting Chad Green up last night). However the good outweighs the bad and those who want him out need to name a suitable replacement because the Yankees manager position is not a plug and play proposition. Its not like taking over the DBacks or the Rockies. You have a lot more shit to deal with.
Great post Stu.
I agree. Great post. He is a very good manager, who is thoughtful and smart. We are lucky to have him. Anyone who judges him based on Friday night is a postseason fan and has not seen a body of work over a decade that is much more meaningful. I am more afraid Girardi will leave us as opposed us leaving him.
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
Oh please. We don't need Mets fans coming on here to tell us freaking spoiled we are. Get lost, clown.
whether you need it or not, some yankee fans are spoiled to the point where they expect all-stars at every position and a manager who makes all the right moves. So right back at ya nancy-boy!
Ah, yes. Mets fans coming on to Yankee threads to tell us how spoiled we are. Mets fans would NEVER question a managers decision or any of their players. After all, the Mets own the city now and everything is peaches and cream!
I could go down the list of players/managers that Mets fans have turned on but I'm sure you are aware of them. It's good to know the Mets fans are still thinking of us though! Thanks for stopping by.
someone with an amazing feel for the game who understands strategy, is prone to thinking outside the box that can sit beside him and give him advice from the gut all throughout the game that he can use or dismiss. Torre was a clueless manager until he put his ego aside, owned up to his limitations and allowed Zimmer to be his game manager. Once Zimmer left Torre's magic touch left with him.
The fact is that managing by the book can only get you so far in the playoffs, as will managing by gut, but it's those one or two pivotal moments in the game when the book needs to get thrown out the window that Girardi seems all too reliant on his binder that drives people crazy.
by Girardi remains the worst decision I have ever seen by a coach
But good, proven, coaches make bad, sometimes inexplicable decisions. Pete Caroll threw the ball at the end of the Super Bowl, Greg Popovich left Duncan on the bench at the end of the NBA Finals-- but you don't fire them for that.
If you do, it's just a rash decision that is punitive in nature. You fire a manager/coach because you think that he is not the right guy to lead the team going forward-- that is style is ill-suited to win, or ill-suited for the personnel.
Girardi has shown he is a good manager and can get this current personnel to perform above expectations. The non-challenge bears no indication of his ability to manage in the future-- it was nothing more than a one-off random occurrence and bone-headed decision.
If one wanted to argue that his thought process of not interrupting pitcher's rhythm points to his inability to manage pitchers, especially in relief, then he has years of evidence pointing to the contrary as he has been great dealing with the bullpen over the yeras.
Most managers have an awful game here and ther, we just see ours Â
That game was one of Girardi's (or anybody else's) worst ever. Aside from the challenge, the CC decision after 1 earend run, 77 pitches and reting 12 of the last 13 in itself was mindboggling. Then ignoring Sanchez, and initially trying to deflect responsibility. Just a terrible day all around.
But all that said, I think it was a bad day by someone who by most accounts is a pretty good manager.
That doesn't make it "unfair" or "wrong" if they decide to go in a differnt direction. 10 years is a long time, sometimes a differnt voice is needed. Didn't Al Davis say 8 years or so was all any NFL HC should be in that seat?
RE: Most managers have an awful game here and ther, we just see ours Â
Aside from the challenge, the CC decision after 1 earend run, 77 pitches and reting 12 of the last 13 in itself was mindboggling.
I still don't have any problem with this. How many times have we seen CC cruise through 4 or 5 innings and then collapse in the 6th? Isn't that situation exactly what this bullpen was built for?
It didn't work out, but it was a perfectly sensible decision.
RE: RE: Most managers have an awful game here and ther, we just see ours Â
Aside from the challenge, the CC decision after 1 earend run, 77 pitches and reting 12 of the last 13 in itself was mindboggling.
I still don't have any problem with this. How many times have we seen CC cruise through 4 or 5 innings and then collapse in the 6th? Isn't that situation exactly what this bullpen was built for?
It didn't work out, but it was a perfectly sensible decision.
by Girardi remains the worst decision I have ever seen by a coach
But good, proven, coaches make bad, sometimes inexplicable decisions. Pete Caroll threw the ball at the end of the Super Bowl, Greg Popovich left Duncan on the bench at the end of the NBA Finals-- but you don't fire them for that.
If you do, it's just a rash decision that is punitive in nature. You fire a manager/coach because you think that he is not the right guy to lead the team going forward-- that is style is ill-suited to win, or ill-suited for the personnel.
Girardi has shown he is a good manager and can get this current personnel to perform above expectations. The non-challenge bears no indication of his ability to manage in the future-- it was nothing more than a one-off random occurrence and bone-headed decision.
If one wanted to argue that his thought process of not interrupting pitcher's rhythm points to his inability to manage pitchers, especially in relief, then he has years of evidence pointing to the contrary as he has been great dealing with the bullpen over the yeras.
a lot of people want to see Girardi pay for that loss, without considering the probability that the Yankees end up doing worse with their next manager hire. They could just end up punishing themselves with a move like that.
I've heard it compared to Showalter's blunders in Seattle, but I think those people are discounting the obvious personality clashes that were going on at the time as the main reason why he was replaced.
that's perhaps the hardest decision a manager has to make-- when you have a pitcher that is performing well though you know he is prone to fall apart near that stage in the game with a completely loaded bullpen.
It's a decision that gets graded in hindsight. I haven't looked at the data, but I'm sure it's not pretty when you look at CC's performances over the last season or three when he faces batters for the 3rd time (I'm not sure where he was in the lineup when he was pulled).
Yeah, he was retiring batter after batter along for a handful of innings (outside the first where he was getting hit hard), but how much trust do you put into that without considering where he was at his pitch count?
The Yankees bullpen, on the other hand, has been phenomenal and has enough arms to handle th game the rest of the way.
He could have let CC in given the lead they had, but I can't knock him for the decision that i"m not even sure was wrong.
and realize a mistake was made. He's a very good manager and I don't want to see what someone less competent would do especially when it comes to grooming young talent.
In the end, I'm mostly indifferent. There aren't very many better managers out there who are free. I would seriously consider bringing Buck back if it were possible. Otherwise, Girardi is fine.
I agree. Never cared for him. Still don't. No one else out there
CC does implode quickly once past the sixth. We have all seen that
Green does need more rest than others to for his max stuff. We saw this from the first game post season to his second appearance
Betances is a coach killer and Girardi's patience with Bird, Judge, Headley and Sevy all paid off. Betances does not look like a confident guy and is a proven liability once men get on base.
As for mistakes...every single Yankee has made sub par performances and mistakes in the post season. Torreyes, Judge, Frazier, Casto, Gardy, Sevy. A whole bunch of them allowed the hit bat instance to even matter.
And if everybody watching never made a mistake they would be playing. We don't sign their paychecks. They did not deliberately try to hurt us so badly that we want their jobs.
If we carried the same mindset into work we would call for or own firing and everyone around us within two weeks. Some posters who call for firing at the drop of a hat could clean out General Motors in a month.
If you told me last September that we would be in the fifth game against baseballs best this year...I would have not believed it. And been very happy to hear it
Has overachieved mostly during his career as manager, but I don't think Joe has had a good season at all, in fact this season is probably his worst, but that has a lot to do with the amount of influx into the lineup and all the injuries.
So is Phil right in saying that Joe is not right for the reload, or was it just a transition year for the manager too? It is a good question and I am not sure I know the answer to be honest.
There is a lot to be said about whether you can truly upgrade the position, and how do his players feel and if you think that does not mean much or does not play then you are clueless and should just shut the fuck up.
Nine good seasons, 1 bad season, but is he right moving forward, that is a good and very tough question. We simply do not have enough information to be judges, we all have an opinion, and we have that right.
I have faith in the ownership and Cashman, who will be rehired for certain, that whatever decision they make it will be the right decision.
Joe made a horrible decision, he tried to defend it at first, like any of us would do, he now has realized what he did, seems to me the players may be rallying behind him though. I hope they win this series for Joe.
Georgia Roddy since the other night. I was pissed and far to harsh in my reaction. He's an excellent manager who made a mistake and sometimes doesn't seem to have a great feel for the game. That said, the Yankees could do much worse than Joe. Just look over the bridge to that absolute shitshow in Queens. Yuck.
Georgia Roddy since the other night. I was pissed and far to harsh in my reaction. He's an excellent manager who made a mistake and sometimes doesn't seem to have a great feel for the game. That said, the Yankees could do much worse than Joe. Just look over the bridge to that absolute shitshow in Queens. Yuck.
You should show more respect for the team in Queens. They own the city, remember? And their fans are so much more tolerant and level headed than Yankees fans...
Georgia Roddy since the other night. I was pissed and far to harsh in my reaction. He's an excellent manager who made a mistake and sometimes doesn't seem to have a great feel for the game. That said, the Yankees could do much worse than Joe. Just look over the bridge to that absolute shitshow in Queens. Yuck.
You should show more respect for the team in Queens. They own the city, remember? And their fans are so much more tolerant and level headed than Yankees fans...
Yup. Again, I overreacted. Sorry and thanks for calling me out. Their baseball compass is without question. I should just be happy to still be able to watch my team for once. It's usually the Mets dominating the playoffs and winning championships.
Georgia Roddy since the other night. I was pissed and far to harsh in my reaction. He's an excellent manager who made a mistake and sometimes doesn't seem to have a great feel for the game. That said, the Yankees could do much worse than Joe. Just look over the bridge to that absolute shitshow in Queens. Yuck.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat. Win or lose tomorrow night, I hope he stays and sees things through with this group. He won't find a better job than this one, and the Yankees likely won't find an upgrade either.
Joe is a good company man but also trotting Green out with seven run leads during the year was not smart. His lineups orders are off and not guiding and managing Judge during his slump by dropping him in the order was frustrating. He did sit Bird in favor of Headley at times.
Some people here say that a manager doesn't matter. To those then it should be irrelevant if Joe goes.
All managers can have bad games and make a bad decision. Often, that is decided by whether the players execute. Chad Green pitches lights out...Girardi's a genius. Chad Green doesn't have it...Girardi's an idiot. I ask anybody that thinks the Yanks would be better off without him: Who are you getting to replace him that is better? If the Yanks decided to move on from Girardi, his phone would be blowing up with job offers immediately. Be careful what you wish for.
Maybe he would have felt more pressure and that he was letting his team down? maybe other guys who have slumps ( all of them) would have noticed and started pressing even more the first time they went 1 for 10?
Green is a rookie called up at the end of May? Unproven at first so spots where he had less pressure and an opinion about his major league makeup could be formed made sense at the time?
There is no perfect player or manager. Ever.
He is far from perfect.
But those who want him replaced have to do two things:
1) Make a fact based comparative case that his record over time is indeed inferior to playoff winning managers?
2) Name some one proven to be likely better right now who is available?
I think Girardi is a good manager who has not had his best season. Â
It happens. Lots of change and flux, but still got them to 91 wins with a chance to win the division in the last weekend of the season. And to be fair, if the bullpen didn't lead the league in blown saves we might be talking about what great 100 win, divison winning season it was. Chapman alone blew 2 against Boston that would have tied the AL east. They had 23 on the season as a group.
and that's the only way he won't be back, the Steinbrenners are big on Thompson , who is an analytics geek with a considerable run as bench coach. Hey, Joe Maddon started under Scioscia .
If the Yankees lose Wed night, Girardi's poor decision will be long remembered . The most rabid of fans will blame him for losing the series. Not fair, at all. But it comes with the territory . I didn't like him putting Torreyes into that game late, either . Especially at third . He is the worst glove the Yankees have had at the hot corner since Rich McKinney . Yeah Frazier had two screw ups earlier but both he and Headley would have kept that ball on the skin, giving you at least a chance to survive the inning. And getting picked off as a pinch-runner? I've coached baseball for years. Inserting a runner who then gets picked off a base would give me the dry heaves .
He's been a good manager. I hope he leaves. Takes a couple years off, then comes back fresh for someone else. Maybe the Cubs.
that's perhaps the hardest decision a manager has to make-- when you have a pitcher that is performing well though you know he is prone to fall apart near that stage in the game with a completely loaded bullpen.
It's a decision that gets graded in hindsight. I haven't looked at the data, but I'm sure it's not pretty when you look at CC's performances over the last season or three when he faces batters for the 3rd time (I'm not sure where he was in the lineup when he was pulled).
Yeah, he was retiring batter after batter along for a handful of innings (outside the first where he was getting hit hard), but how much trust do you put into that without considering where he was at his pitch count?
The Yankees bullpen, on the other hand, has been phenomenal and has enough arms to handle th game the rest of the way.
He could have let CC in given the lead they had, but I can't knock him for the decision that i"m not even sure was wrong.
I do have a bias towards going deep as posible with the starter. He only threw 77 pitches and the bullpen was a little gassed because of the WC game.
Whatever, the main thing is they live to fight another day, Sevi gave them length last night, and the bullpen should be well rested for Game 5.
with letting a starter who is rolling continue to roll until he shows signs of losing it, because you never know how the reliever will come out. But with the quality of this bullpen and my lack of faith in CC that late in the game at this point in his career, I understand the decision either way.
The end result whether CC was in or a reliever was brought in should not have been a 4-run inning.
I actually think that Girardi has had a great year. Â
Certainly, some of his in-game choices can be questioned. But he LED this team of kids to a phenomenal season, far surpassing what anyone, from Cashman to Hal to any of us, could have expected. And, imo, leadership, and developing a team with resilience, confidence AND RESULTS, should be the greatest measure of his performance this year.
True throughout.He's human. We all make mistakes, some of which are large. But much of what he's done has been for the better. That's not a small part of how they got here and why they're still in it.
How could anyone claim that he didn't take responsibility? Â
"I take responsibility for everything, and I feel horrible about it," he said, according to MLB.com's Bryan Hoch. "I screwed up. It's hard. It's a hard day for me. But I've got to move forward and we'll be ready to go tomorrow."
As far as criticizing taking CC out, I think we have some frontrunners here. It's exactly the way he managed all year. This time it didn't work, but usually it has.
Finally, the team has done better than practically anyone envisioned. Does Girardi get any credit for that? The deep slump when Chapman, Betances and Judge all stopped being effective at once created an illusion that somehow Girardi became a bad manager.
to the Red Sox. The Sox won the division with 1 pitcher. The Yankees had 4. The Sox had one reliable arm in the bullpen. The Yankees 2017 bullpen might be the best ever assembled. The Yankees had 3 starters with career years and many others who had better than average years, the Sox had one, Benitendi who was their #4 hitter and he didn't break 90rbi, the rest of their starters are all down from their career averages. For all that, their WS winning manager is out of a job today. That's the standard. Joe's a nice guy and easy to root for but to say he overachieved is delusional.
to the Red Sox. The Sox won the division with 1 pitcher. The Yankees had 4. The Sox had one reliable arm in the bullpen. The Yankees 2017 bullpen might be the best ever assembled. The Yankees had 3 starters with career years and many others who had better than average years, the Sox had one, Benitendi who was their #4 hitter and he didn't break 90rbi, the rest of their starters are all down from their career averages. For all that, their WS winning manager is out of a job today. That's the standard. Joe's a nice guy and easy to root for but to say he overachieved is delusional.
GentleGiant, I would like to remind you that going into the season, here were the win projections from Vegas, from Fangraphs, and from PECOTA (Baseball Prospectus), compared with actual results.
Quote:
Team......Vegas....Fngrphs...BP...Actual
Red Sox...92.5......91..........90......93
Yankees...82.5......81..........82......91
I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
There were and are people here that destroyed Torre on a regular basis. Granted he left some things to be desired over the last 5 or so seasons here with the Yanks but the guy won four WS titles. FOUR! The night the Yanks beat the Phillies or Angels in 2009 people were killing Torre then too. I thought it rather odd and maybe even a bit terrible that fans would revert to hating on a former mgr during an otherwise glorious night but then I remembered NYG fans crushing Tiki Barber at the super bowl 42 parade. Fans like to boo and bitch.
better than Fister. The fact is that the Red Sox won the division just by beating the teams that were worse than them. The Yankees blew a lot of winnable games this year, and that's on Girardi.
but does anyone here honestly believe that Girardi was told by numerous people the bat hit the ball? Seriously? And Girardi just ignored everyone? Why? Because of binders? BEcause he just wanted to be a dick?
His replay guy fucked up. It's as clear as day. You can see the confusion and concern on Girardi's face as he eschewed the replay option. He wasn't sure. If he was sure or was told by someone that it looked like a bat tip he would have challenged. Doesn't that theory make a lot more sense than Girardi just ignoring all the tell tale signs? It does to me...
but does anyone here honestly believe that Girardi was told by numerous people the bat hit the ball? Seriously? And Girardi just ignored everyone? Why? Because of binders? BEcause he just wanted to be a dick?
His replay guy fucked up. It's as clear as day. You can see the confusion and concern on Girardi's face as he eschewed the replay option. He wasn't sure. If he was sure or was told by someone that it looked like a bat tip he would have challenged. Doesn't that theory make a lot more sense than Girardi just ignoring all the tell tale signs? It does to me...
His catcher told him to review it.
A team that was considered too young to contend this year Â
but does anyone here honestly believe that Girardi was told by numerous people the bat hit the ball?
I know Sanchez told him. Rather emphatically, actually. He should have showed some faith in his catcher there, particularly because baseball isn't football - there's no penalty for a failed challenge. He had nothing to lose.
Also, though there's no need to rehash everything again, Yankee fans had very good reasons to be extremely frustrated with late-stage Joe Torre. His blundering in the 2003 and 2004 postseasons was egregious and devastating.
RE: RE: Compare the Yankees position by position Â
to the Red Sox. The Sox won the division with 1 pitcher. The Yankees had 4. The Sox had one reliable arm in the bullpen. The Yankees 2017 bullpen might be the best ever assembled. The Yankees had 3 starters with career years and many others who had better than average years, the Sox had one, Benitendi who was their #4 hitter and he didn't break 90rbi, the rest of their starters are all down from their career averages. For all that, their WS winning manager is out of a job today. That's the standard. Joe's a nice guy and easy to root for but to say he overachieved is delusional.
GentleGiant, I would like to remind you that going into the season, here were the win projections from Vegas, from Fangraphs, and from PECOTA (Baseball Prospectus), compared with actual results.
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Team......Vegas....Fngrphs...BP...Actual
Red Sox...92.5......91..........90......93
Yankees...82.5......81..........82......91
Interesting. The Sox underachieved across the board on an individual basis and still matched their prediction. I can't imagine the Yankees matching their preseason prediction if just Aaron Judge had an average year. The hr bailed out Joe's incompetence out all season long. In fact, before game 4 the Yankees only had 1 rbi not via the HR in this series.
Every year I watch the playoffs and the most successful teams manufacture runs when necessary, mostly because playoff pitchers are playoff pitchers because they are stingy with runners on base. Joe never did it during the season and now his players are rusty when the opportunity arises - see Torreyes straying too far off the bag in the pivotal game 2. He never uses the hit and run, his players never hit behind the runner with 2 strikes and he never even starts a runner to keep out of the dp. He's unprepared, even though he used this tool efficiently in his 2009 run and watched Torre do it during the dynasty years.
I guess he's the smart one because no one ever second guesses the manager when the team doesn't plate the lead off double with a hit but woe betide the manager who gives up an out via the bunt and doesn't get the run in.
RE: A team that was considered too young to contend this year Â
is one win away from knocking off the best team in the American League and advancing to the ALCS.
But, sure, get rid of the bum who managed them to this point (and possibly beyond).
Wasn't that the Mets two years ago? It all came together for the Yankees this year. This may be their only shot. I'll bet Cashman is kicking himself right now for not going after Verlander harder.
I've liked him as a manger since he was in Florida.
Baseball fans love to bitch and complain about mangers. Girardi had a very forgettable night during game 2. As bad as it gets for a manager. But I'm pretty sure that's a mistake he'll never make again.
The 180 people have done in a 3-4 day span has been entertaining.... but it's postseason baseball, I supposed emotions run wild this time of year.
Girardi has his strengths and weaknesses like anyone else Â
He's a pretty steady presence. Players generally seem to like him. He isn't nearly as resistant to working youngsters into the lineup as, say, Joe Torre was. Over the course of his Yankee tenure, he's done a nice job of juggling relievers to prevent anyone from getting burned out.
On the other hand, he's no tactician. His bullpen usage this year was a step back from the past, notably his reluctance to stop using pitchers who were clearly struggling. His loyalty to first Clippard and then Betances/Chapman cost them several games.
I've liked him as a manger since he was in Florida.
Baseball fans love to bitch and complain about mangers. Girardi had a very forgettable night during game 2. As bad as it gets for a manager. But I'm pretty sure that's a mistake he'll never make again.
The 180 people have done in a 3-4 day span has been entertaining.... but it's postseason baseball, I supposed emotions run wild this time of year.
I assure you, that night is the absolute polar opposite of "forgettable."
Well, I'm sure it's a night Joe would prefer to forget...
Alas, my point remains, I think the good outweighs the bad with him. Any manager who is around a few years will wind up with fans criticizing him. It's just the nature of the game - it's rife with second guessing and hindsight.
You could certainly do much worse.
The biggest takeaway I had from his mistakes in game 2 Â
was that it seemed he wasn't trusting his players. CC was rolling, but Girardi pulled him to folow his pregame plan. Sanchez was the only Yankee who was in position to see that ball hit the knob of the bat. Yet, even as a former catcher, Girardi ignored him.
I was afraid he would start to lose the clubhouse going into games 3 & 4. If that happened, there would need to be a real disscussion of whether he was the right guy moving forward. BUT, the team rallied for him and picked him up after a bad game.
Girardi is still a top tier manager IMO. He can be too analytical at times and rely too much on his binder. But as long as he still had the support of his players he can still learn from his mistakes and continue to call better games.
The next 5 years or more have the potential to be big for the Yanks. We know what we have in Joe. As long as the players still have his back there is no reason to remove him. Its a big risk to move to an unknown at this point.
out LOB. 26 more than any other team in baseball. The Yankees played 44 one run games this year and lost the division by 2 games. Girardi never even made an attempt to correct this glaring deficiency. To this day players are still swinging from their heels with 0 outs, 2 strikes and runners in scoring position. That's not winning baseball. That will never change unless Girardi does and I don't think he is capable of it at this point in his career.
leave it off. "Left on base" is a misleading statistic. You put a lot of guys on base and you'll leave a lot of guys on base.
The Yankees left the most guys on base. The top 5 teams in baseball in LOB all made the playoffs (Yankees, Indians, Red Sox, Twins, Cubs). Houston was 8th in guys left on base.
Last year, the Cubs led MLB in guys left on base.
You saw the Yankees strand a lot of runners because you watched a very good offense all season long.
Pointing to 1-run games is also meaningless as it's a crapshoot as well. In 2012, everyone fellated the Orioles for how historic they were in 1-run games (22-9). In 2013, with a very similar roster they were 20-31 in such games.
The Yankees were 2nd in stranding RISP behind the Indians. The top 6 teams in this all made the postseason. Put a lot of guys on base, strand a lot of guys on base.
The Yankees stranded 3.69 RISP per game. The Astros stranded 3.38.
The Yankees were 25th in batting average with RISP and 2 outs. No doubt it was something they struggled with.
But when you constantly put guys in scoring position, you don't have to be as efficient as other teams. You can't have it all with an offense.
The Yankees were 2nd in stranding RISP behind the Indians. The top 6 teams in this all made the postseason. Put a lot of guys on base, strand a lot of guys on base.
The Yankees stranded 3.69 RISP per game. The Astros stranded 3.38.
The Yankees were 25th in batting average with RISP and 2 outs. No doubt it was something they struggled with.
But when you constantly put guys in scoring position, you don't have to be as efficient as other teams. You can't have it all with an offense.
It's interesting what we find to complain about. Guess it would be better if we had no runners to strand?
As a fan, it's clearly frustrating to have so many RISP. These are emotionally draining and very memorable experiences, so we hang onto them and turn resentful toward the club for not being able to convert. The alternative of producing more often would be less memorable as it becomes the norm.
what I've seen with my eyes for Girardi's entire career - sitting on his hands waiting for the 3 run hr. If you haven't been frustrated with the Yankees lacking ability to get runs in from scoring position with less than 2 outs then you just having been watching. The Yankees are young, fast and versatile yet Girardi refuses to make them more dynamic. It's not like they have to sacrifice one for the other. Girardi of all people should know that great slugging teams almost invariable go home early in the post season.
that is NOT on the top of the LOB list this year is done and waiting for the ALCS. I don't understand when it became a rule that teams that can get runners on base at high rate have to be one-dimensional.
because this conversation is opening that locked door in your brain where you store all the memories of Derek Jeter's failed bunt attempts. I saw the hottest hitter in baseball and probable AL MVP unsuccessfully bunt for a hit the other night. It's a big part of winning baseball if for nothing else but to keep the defense guessing.
12th in stolen bases, 5th in base-running score, and 2nd in sac flies.
You are harping on one issue the Yanks have had (hitting with RISP and ignoring everything else.
It's also ridiculous that you are complaining that the Yankees offense isn't as good as the best offense in baseball-- a team that was projected to have a better offense than the Yankees even before the season started.
Are you in favor of trading Aaron Judge? I ask this facetiously, because he is the epitome of everything you are complaining about with this Yankees team. In these 2-out, RISP situations, he has a terrible batting average, a lot of strikeouts and saved only by a good number of home runs. Even worse, he doesn't try to bunt for hits.
not only are the Astros the #1 offense in baseball this year Â
They are *historically great*. Team OPS+ of 127? That's nuts. The best of the Yankee dynasty teams were 117 (1998). You have to go back to the Babe Ruth teams to find a Yankee lineup that was as statistically impressive as the 2017 Astros.
There is enough data now to prove it. That's why teams don't do it.
The Yankees had the bunt play on in game two, with nobody out and Torreyes on 2nd. How'd that work out for them. Torreyes was thrown out, but hey, at least they didn't leave any men on base!
Man on second, nobody out in a walkoff situation. Gets the runner to third with less than two outs. Otherwise, unless you have a complete zero at the plate, it's a mistake.
Man on second, nobody out in a walkoff situation. Gets the runner to third with less than two outs. Otherwise, unless you have a complete zero at the plate, it's a mistake.
I'd still rather have Gardy swing the bat there. Pull the ball to the right side and who knows, maybe it gets through. I absolutely hate giving up an out, especially with a team that strikes out as much as this one.
Not saying you're wrong, and not second guessing their decision, it's just my preference
There is enough data now to prove it. That's why teams don't do it.
The Yankees had the bunt play on in game two, with nobody out and Torreyes on 2nd. How'd that work out for them. Torreyes was thrown out, but hey, at least they didn't leave any men on base!
I already addressed Torreyes upthread, but feel free to ignore it. It's the laziest move in sports to knock a failed sacrifice bunt but flash back to the bottom of the 6th inning on Sunday night in a 0-0 game. Hicks leads off with a walk, Gardner up with Judge and Sanchez to follow - doesn't bunt (probably because of the failed bunt attempt of Friday), but grounds into double play. Immediately following - Judge walk and Sanchez single - the run would have scored. I assume I was the only person in the tristate area cursing Girardi for not bunting Gardner. Bird bails Joe out an inning later so I guess all is well - as long as the hrs keep coming- but playoff history says they won't.
RE: I actually think that Girardi has had a great year. Â
Certainly, some of his in-game choices can be questioned. But he LED this team of kids to a phenomenal season, far surpassing what anyone, from Cashman to Hal to any of us, could have expected. And, imo, leadership, and developing a team with resilience, confidence AND RESULTS, should be the greatest measure of his performance this year.
I think that the success this season has obscured what we have all seen over the past several years. Girardi is overly reliant on his binder and has little to no feel for the flow of the game- that manifestly showed in his removal of CC in game 2.
Girardi also does not seem to grasp strategy or nuances well either. If it isn't in the binder, it isn't in his head.
Finally, his handling of young pitchers- especially young relievers- is terrible.
I think that Girardi is in the same situation as Buck Showalter was before Torre- he was the manager that the team needed at the time- but as the team changes- the need for a new manager was apparent. I think Girardi was just the manager that the Yanks needed in their vets years- but as the team transitions to young players, a more instinctive approach to the game- as well as use of strategy is necessary- both BIG weaknesses of Girardi.
Want some possible replacements? Don Wakamatsu would be at the top of my list.
RE: RE: Bunting is typically the worst play in baseball Â
There is enough data now to prove it. That's why teams don't do it.
The Yankees had the bunt play on in game two, with nobody out and Torreyes on 2nd. How'd that work out for them. Torreyes was thrown out, but hey, at least they didn't leave any men on base!
I already addressed Torreyes upthread, but feel free to ignore it. It's the laziest move in sports to knock a failed sacrifice bunt but flash back to the bottom of the 6th inning on Sunday night in a 0-0 game. Hicks leads off with a walk, Gardner up with Judge and Sanchez to follow - doesn't bunt (probably because of the failed bunt attempt of Friday), but grounds into double play. Immediately following - Judge walk and Sanchez single - the run would have scored. I assume I was the only person in the tristate area cursing Girardi for not bunting Gardner. Bird bails Joe out an inning later so I guess all is well - as long as the hrs keep coming- but playoff history says they won't.
Actually, the laziest thing in all of sports is to assume that everything would have played out exactly the same way if rewound and put in another position. So if Gardner successfully bunts Hicks over, and assuming success is another issue all together btw, assuming that the next two batters play out the exact same way is asinine. You don't know how it would have played out.
The Yankees have failed a million times this season trying to play the "bunt em over" game. Friday was just example number one million. With this lineup, you simply don't give up outs in the 6th inning.
of hard data showing that man on 1st with no outs yields more overall runs and increases the likelihood of scoring a single run over a man on second with one out, you're still complaining that it was a failure for Gardner to not bunt?
Al Pedrique is my dark horse candidate. Obviously not a big name Â
of hard data showing that man on 1st with no outs yields more overall runs and increases the likelihood of scoring a single run over a man on second with one out, you're still complaining that it was a failure for Gardner to not bunt?
If stats were the be all and end all then Girardi would have 5 rings as a manager. My argument all along has been that scoring runs in the playoffs is much harder than the regular season and managers who are playoff bound need to prepare for this by priming their team for small ball in case they need to manufacture runs in October, something Girardi did only one season that I can recall, I'll let you guess which. I'd be very curious if the stats posted above can be parsed to show if there is any difference between regular and post season.
Well, now it is dumb and dumber time. Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber you go out and do something like that .... AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!
He's not without flaws, but he's probably better than most managers and does a great job with the bullpen which, for this team is important.
Odds are that if they part ways with Girardi, they'll end up with someone worse.
He's not without flaws, but he's probably better than most managers and does a great job with the bullpen which, for this team is important.
Odds are that if they part ways with Girardi, they'll end up with someone worse.
Bringing in betances last night after kahnle was working in the pen was idiotic. Do or die and trying to appease betances
I hate to be blunt but that's utter horse crap. He has plenty of feel for his players and had to deal with a lot of shit this year. Every regular besides Judge and Gardy missed at least a month this year (And Judge may as well have the way he hit from the All Star game till September). The way he managed the WC game was epic. He fucked up Friday big time(though I think he's still covering for his replay guy not getting him info fast enough) and yes he can be stiff in the way he manages by the #'s and he can gain and lose trust of relievers to quickly(not even getting Chad Green up last night). However the good outweighs the bad and those who want him out need to name a suitable replacement because the Yankees manager position is not a plug and play proposition. Its not like taking over the DBacks or the Rockies. You have a lot more shit to deal with.
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He's great with young guys. His weakness is his stupid binder and the fact that he has zero feel for a game and for his players.
I hate to be blunt but that's utter horse crap. He has plenty of feel for his players and had to deal with a lot of shit this year. Every regular besides Judge and Gardy missed at least a month this year (And Judge may as well have the way he hit from the All Star game till September). The way he managed the WC game was epic. He fucked up Friday big time(though I think he's still covering for his replay guy not getting him info fast enough) and yes he can be stiff in the way he manages by the #'s and he can gain and lose trust of relievers to quickly(not even getting Chad Green up last night). However the good outweighs the bad and those who want him out need to name a suitable replacement because the Yankees manager position is not a plug and play proposition. Its not like taking over the DBacks or the Rockies. You have a lot more shit to deal with.
Great post Stu.
That’s a pretty funny autocorrect lol.
I’ve always been a Girardi backer. I was pretty wound up after game 2 and succumbed to the ‘he has to go’ knee jerk reaction.
With some time to think back, I’m OK if he stays - but he could really use a bench coach and/or pitching coach to check his decisions a bit.
Torre was at his best when he had Zimmer next to him. Rob Thomson, Larry Rothschild, Tony Pena all seem like veteran, respected coaches...I don’t think we can really know if they’re co-signing every ‘binder’ move, or sometimes disagreeing and Joe won’t he’d their advice.
He has for the most part been pretty quick and decisive with the hook when it’s obvious a reliever doesn’t have it. The one glaring exception being leaving Chad Green in too long in game 2, when it seemed obvious he didn’t have it.
But as was posted by others - there are some lousy managers leading successful teams in MLB...not many I’d take over Girardi.
Joe has kept this team in the hunt year in and year with a winning record and an aging roster and not nearly the talent he has now. Who better to guide them for the foreseeable future.
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Look at some of the humps managing in the playoffs - Dusty, Farrell, etc.
That’s a pretty funny autocorrect lol.
I’ve always been a Girardi backer. I was pretty wound up after game 2 and succumbed to the ‘he has to go’ knee jerk reaction.
With some time to think back, I’m OK if he stays - but he could really use a bench coach and/or pitching coach to check his decisions a bit.
Torre was at his best when he had Zimmer next to him. Rob Thomson, Larry Rothschild, Tony Pena all seem like veteran, respected coaches...I don’t think we can really know if they’re co-signing every ‘binder’ move, or sometimes disagreeing and Joe won’t he’d their advice.
He has for the most part been pretty quick and decisive with the hook when it’s obvious a reliever doesn’t have it. The one glaring exception being leaving Chad Green in too long in game 2, when it seemed obvious he didn’t have it.
But as was posted by others - there are some lousy managers leading successful teams in MLB...not many I’d take over Girardi.
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you in now tempering my emotions but I still will never understand the why. He had 2 appeals,it was the 6th inning & the umpires took over in the 7th.There was no need for video confirmation,just appeal, particularly since Sanchez heard the tip. Thompson is worthless-a good bench coach would know the rules,advise Girardi accordingly & all of this could have been avoided. But,Thompson was moved off as 3B coach because he sucked but he doesn't suck any less as a bench coach.Think Zimmer would have told Torre to appeal?
But now all of that is in the rear view mirror & only tomorrow matters! Let's Go Yankees!
Well, now it is dumb and dumber time. Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber you go out and do something like that .... AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!
He absolutely did own up to it the next day and said he's learned from it. So there's that.
Oh please. We don't need Mets fans coming on here to tell us freaking spoiled we are. Get lost, clown.
that said, there seems to be a growing sentiment that both sides would prefer a clean break after this season, so unless they win the WS my assumption is he will be gone.
Like Showalter?
Shut up.
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also make terrible decisions based on gut, though. More often than not, relying on his binder and data is a good move. He's too reliant on it, but it's the right idea.
He's not without flaws, but he's probably better than most managers and does a great job with the bullpen which, for this team is important.
Odds are that if they part ways with Girardi, they'll end up with someone worse.
Bringing in betances last night after kahnle was working in the pen was idiotic. Do or die and trying to appease betances
This is what sucks about being a Yankees fan. Most fans have no idea what they are talking about, but they have no problem spewing nonsense. Yeah, he brought in Betances to appease him. Not that we had a 4 run lead late and it was a good opportunity to get Betances right so he can help us this postseason.
People can mock you, but you are right. NY fans in general are spoiled and reactionary. Girardi is a great manager(hes certainly not perfect) and we are lucky to have him. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
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I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
Shut up.
clever response...
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I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
People can mock you, but you are right. NY fans in general are spoiled and reactionary. Girardi is a great manager(hes certainly not perfect) and we are lucky to have him. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
I'm really not sure how this is a NY thing. With emotions running high like the other night, in a game that big, you would be getting fan backlash in ANY market. We only pay attention to the NY teams but fans all over the country would have lost their minds in that situation.
But I guess it's just a NY thing.
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I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
Oh please. We don't need Mets fans coming on here to tell us freaking spoiled we are. Get lost, clown.
whether you need it or not, some yankee fans are spoiled to the point where they expect all-stars at every position and a manager who makes all the right moves. So right back at ya nancy-boy!
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In comment 13640808 Tuckrule said:
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He's great with young guys. His weakness is his stupid binder and the fact that he has zero feel for a game and for his players.
I hate to be blunt but that's utter horse crap. He has plenty of feel for his players and had to deal with a lot of shit this year. Every regular besides Judge and Gardy missed at least a month this year (And Judge may as well have the way he hit from the All Star game till September). The way he managed the WC game was epic. He fucked up Friday big time(though I think he's still covering for his replay guy not getting him info fast enough) and yes he can be stiff in the way he manages by the #'s and he can gain and lose trust of relievers to quickly(not even getting Chad Green up last night). However the good outweighs the bad and those who want him out need to name a suitable replacement because the Yankees manager position is not a plug and play proposition. Its not like taking over the DBacks or the Rockies. You have a lot more shit to deal with.
Great post Stu.
I agree. Great post. He is a very good manager, who is thoughtful and smart. We are lucky to have him. Anyone who judges him based on Friday night is a postseason fan and has not seen a body of work over a decade that is much more meaningful. I am more afraid Girardi will leave us as opposed us leaving him.
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In comment 13640890 gmenatlarge said:
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I would take Girardi in a heartbeat as manager. Yes he screwed up on Friday, get over it. I think some Yankee fans are WAY spoiled and don't appreciate a good manager when you have one.
Oh please. We don't need Mets fans coming on here to tell us freaking spoiled we are. Get lost, clown.
whether you need it or not, some yankee fans are spoiled to the point where they expect all-stars at every position and a manager who makes all the right moves. So right back at ya nancy-boy!
Ah, yes. Mets fans coming on to Yankee threads to tell us how spoiled we are. Mets fans would NEVER question a managers decision or any of their players. After all, the Mets own the city now and everything is peaches and cream!
I could go down the list of players/managers that Mets fans have turned on but I'm sure you are aware of them. It's good to know the Mets fans are still thinking of us though! Thanks for stopping by.
The fact is that managing by the book can only get you so far in the playoffs, as will managing by gut, but it's those one or two pivotal moments in the game when the book needs to get thrown out the window that Girardi seems all too reliant on his binder that drives people crazy.
But good, proven, coaches make bad, sometimes inexplicable decisions. Pete Caroll threw the ball at the end of the Super Bowl, Greg Popovich left Duncan on the bench at the end of the NBA Finals-- but you don't fire them for that.
If you do, it's just a rash decision that is punitive in nature. You fire a manager/coach because you think that he is not the right guy to lead the team going forward-- that is style is ill-suited to win, or ill-suited for the personnel.
Girardi has shown he is a good manager and can get this current personnel to perform above expectations. The non-challenge bears no indication of his ability to manage in the future-- it was nothing more than a one-off random occurrence and bone-headed decision.
If one wanted to argue that his thought process of not interrupting pitcher's rhythm points to his inability to manage pitchers, especially in relief, then he has years of evidence pointing to the contrary as he has been great dealing with the bullpen over the yeras.
That game was one of Girardi's (or anybody else's) worst ever. Aside from the challenge, the CC decision after 1 earend run, 77 pitches and reting 12 of the last 13 in itself was mindboggling. Then ignoring Sanchez, and initially trying to deflect responsibility. Just a terrible day all around.
But all that said, I think it was a bad day by someone who by most accounts is a pretty good manager.
That doesn't make it "unfair" or "wrong" if they decide to go in a differnt direction. 10 years is a long time, sometimes a differnt voice is needed. Didn't Al Davis say 8 years or so was all any NFL HC should be in that seat?
I still don't have any problem with this. How many times have we seen CC cruise through 4 or 5 innings and then collapse in the 6th? Isn't that situation exactly what this bullpen was built for?
It didn't work out, but it was a perfectly sensible decision.
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Aside from the challenge, the CC decision after 1 earend run, 77 pitches and reting 12 of the last 13 in itself was mindboggling.
I still don't have any problem with this. How many times have we seen CC cruise through 4 or 5 innings and then collapse in the 6th? Isn't that situation exactly what this bullpen was built for?
It didn't work out, but it was a perfectly sensible decision.
I'll agree to disagree.
But good, proven, coaches make bad, sometimes inexplicable decisions. Pete Caroll threw the ball at the end of the Super Bowl, Greg Popovich left Duncan on the bench at the end of the NBA Finals-- but you don't fire them for that.
If you do, it's just a rash decision that is punitive in nature. You fire a manager/coach because you think that he is not the right guy to lead the team going forward-- that is style is ill-suited to win, or ill-suited for the personnel.
Girardi has shown he is a good manager and can get this current personnel to perform above expectations. The non-challenge bears no indication of his ability to manage in the future-- it was nothing more than a one-off random occurrence and bone-headed decision.
If one wanted to argue that his thought process of not interrupting pitcher's rhythm points to his inability to manage pitchers, especially in relief, then he has years of evidence pointing to the contrary as he has been great dealing with the bullpen over the yeras.
Well said, IMO.
I've heard it compared to Showalter's blunders in Seattle, but I think those people are discounting the obvious personality clashes that were going on at the time as the main reason why he was replaced.
I thought down 0-2 we were dead.
Very happy to see Girardi redeemed.
It's a decision that gets graded in hindsight. I haven't looked at the data, but I'm sure it's not pretty when you look at CC's performances over the last season or three when he faces batters for the 3rd time (I'm not sure where he was in the lineup when he was pulled).
Yeah, he was retiring batter after batter along for a handful of innings (outside the first where he was getting hit hard), but how much trust do you put into that without considering where he was at his pitch count?
The Yankees bullpen, on the other hand, has been phenomenal and has enough arms to handle th game the rest of the way.
He could have let CC in given the lead they had, but I can't knock him for the decision that i"m not even sure was wrong.
I agree. Never cared for him. Still don't. No one else out there
So winning game 2 means we still win game 3 and 4?
All the rest are understandable:
CC does implode quickly once past the sixth. We have all seen that
Green does need more rest than others to for his max stuff. We saw this from the first game post season to his second appearance
Betances is a coach killer and Girardi's patience with Bird, Judge, Headley and Sevy all paid off. Betances does not look like a confident guy and is a proven liability once men get on base.
As for mistakes...every single Yankee has made sub par performances and mistakes in the post season. Torreyes, Judge, Frazier, Casto, Gardy, Sevy. A whole bunch of them allowed the hit bat instance to even matter.
And if everybody watching never made a mistake they would be playing. We don't sign their paychecks. They did not deliberately try to hurt us so badly that we want their jobs.
If we carried the same mindset into work we would call for or own firing and everyone around us within two weeks. Some posters who call for firing at the drop of a hat could clean out General Motors in a month.
If you told me last September that we would be in the fifth game against baseballs best this year...I would have not believed it. And been very happy to hear it
So is Phil right in saying that Joe is not right for the reload, or was it just a transition year for the manager too? It is a good question and I am not sure I know the answer to be honest.
There is a lot to be said about whether you can truly upgrade the position, and how do his players feel and if you think that does not mean much or does not play then you are clueless and should just shut the fuck up.
Nine good seasons, 1 bad season, but is he right moving forward, that is a good and very tough question. We simply do not have enough information to be judges, we all have an opinion, and we have that right.
I have faith in the ownership and Cashman, who will be rehired for certain, that whatever decision they make it will be the right decision.
Joe made a horrible decision, he tried to defend it at first, like any of us would do, he now has realized what he did, seems to me the players may be rallying behind him though. I hope they win this series for Joe.
You should show more respect for the team in Queens. They own the city, remember? And their fans are so much more tolerant and level headed than Yankees fans...
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Georgia Roddy since the other night. I was pissed and far to harsh in my reaction. He's an excellent manager who made a mistake and sometimes doesn't seem to have a great feel for the game. That said, the Yankees could do much worse than Joe. Just look over the bridge to that absolute shitshow in Queens. Yuck.
You should show more respect for the team in Queens. They own the city, remember? And their fans are so much more tolerant and level headed than Yankees fans...
Yup. Again, I overreacted. Sorry and thanks for calling me out. Their baseball compass is without question. I should just be happy to still be able to watch my team for once. It's usually the Mets dominating the playoffs and winning championships.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat. Win or lose tomorrow night, I hope he stays and sees things through with this group. He won't find a better job than this one, and the Yankees likely won't find an upgrade either.
Some people here say that a manager doesn't matter. To those then it should be irrelevant if Joe goes.
Does Cashman and Joe have a good relationship?
Green is a rookie called up at the end of May? Unproven at first so spots where he had less pressure and an opinion about his major league makeup could be formed made sense at the time?
There is no perfect player or manager. Ever.
He is far from perfect.
But those who want him replaced have to do two things:
1) Make a fact based comparative case that his record over time is indeed inferior to playoff winning managers?
2) Name some one proven to be likely better right now who is available?
If the Yankees lose Wed night, Girardi's poor decision will be long remembered . The most rabid of fans will blame him for losing the series. Not fair, at all. But it comes with the territory . I didn't like him putting Torreyes into that game late, either . Especially at third . He is the worst glove the Yankees have had at the hot corner since Rich McKinney . Yeah Frazier had two screw ups earlier but both he and Headley would have kept that ball on the skin, giving you at least a chance to survive the inning. And getting picked off as a pinch-runner? I've coached baseball for years. Inserting a runner who then gets picked off a base would give me the dry heaves .
He's been a good manager. I hope he leaves. Takes a couple years off, then comes back fresh for someone else. Maybe the Cubs.
It's a decision that gets graded in hindsight. I haven't looked at the data, but I'm sure it's not pretty when you look at CC's performances over the last season or three when he faces batters for the 3rd time (I'm not sure where he was in the lineup when he was pulled).
Yeah, he was retiring batter after batter along for a handful of innings (outside the first where he was getting hit hard), but how much trust do you put into that without considering where he was at his pitch count?
The Yankees bullpen, on the other hand, has been phenomenal and has enough arms to handle th game the rest of the way.
He could have let CC in given the lead they had, but I can't knock him for the decision that i"m not even sure was wrong.
I do have a bias towards going deep as posible with the starter. He only threw 77 pitches and the bullpen was a little gassed because of the WC game.
Whatever, the main thing is they live to fight another day, Sevi gave them length last night, and the bullpen should be well rested for Game 5.
The end result whether CC was in or a reliever was brought in should not have been a 4-run inning.
All the rest are understandable. . . .
As far as criticizing taking CC out, I think we have some frontrunners here. It's exactly the way he managed all year. This time it didn't work, but usually it has.
Finally, the team has done better than practically anyone envisioned. Does Girardi get any credit for that? The deep slump when Chapman, Betances and Judge all stopped being effective at once created an illusion that somehow Girardi became a bad manager.
GentleGiant, I would like to remind you that going into the season, here were the win projections from Vegas, from Fangraphs, and from PECOTA (Baseball Prospectus), compared with actual results.
Team......Vegas....Fngrphs...BP...Actual
Red Sox...92.5......91..........90......93
Yankees...82.5......81..........82......91
Source: https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/3/30/15115578/mlb-over-under-bet-2017
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/215591304/mlb-pecota-projections-2017-breakdown
There were and are people here that destroyed Torre on a regular basis. Granted he left some things to be desired over the last 5 or so seasons here with the Yanks but the guy won four WS titles. FOUR! The night the Yanks beat the Phillies or Angels in 2009 people were killing Torre then too. I thought it rather odd and maybe even a bit terrible that fans would revert to hating on a former mgr during an otherwise glorious night but then I remembered NYG fans crushing Tiki Barber at the super bowl 42 parade. Fans like to boo and bitch.
His replay guy fucked up. It's as clear as day. You can see the confusion and concern on Girardi's face as he eschewed the replay option. He wasn't sure. If he was sure or was told by someone that it looked like a bat tip he would have challenged. Doesn't that theory make a lot more sense than Girardi just ignoring all the tell tale signs? It does to me...
His replay guy fucked up. It's as clear as day. You can see the confusion and concern on Girardi's face as he eschewed the replay option. He wasn't sure. If he was sure or was told by someone that it looked like a bat tip he would have challenged. Doesn't that theory make a lot more sense than Girardi just ignoring all the tell tale signs? It does to me...
But, sure, get rid of the bum who managed them to this point (and possibly beyond).
I know Sanchez told him. Rather emphatically, actually. He should have showed some faith in his catcher there, particularly because baseball isn't football - there's no penalty for a failed challenge. He had nothing to lose.
Also, though there's no need to rehash everything again, Yankee fans had very good reasons to be extremely frustrated with late-stage Joe Torre. His blundering in the 2003 and 2004 postseasons was egregious and devastating.
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to the Red Sox. The Sox won the division with 1 pitcher. The Yankees had 4. The Sox had one reliable arm in the bullpen. The Yankees 2017 bullpen might be the best ever assembled. The Yankees had 3 starters with career years and many others who had better than average years, the Sox had one, Benitendi who was their #4 hitter and he didn't break 90rbi, the rest of their starters are all down from their career averages. For all that, their WS winning manager is out of a job today. That's the standard. Joe's a nice guy and easy to root for but to say he overachieved is delusional.
GentleGiant, I would like to remind you that going into the season, here were the win projections from Vegas, from Fangraphs, and from PECOTA (Baseball Prospectus), compared with actual results.
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Team......Vegas....Fngrphs...BP...Actual
Red Sox...92.5......91..........90......93
Yankees...82.5......81..........82......91
Source: https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/3/30/15115578/mlb-over-under-bet-2017
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/215591304/mlb-pecota-projections-2017-breakdown
Interesting. The Sox underachieved across the board on an individual basis and still matched their prediction. I can't imagine the Yankees matching their preseason prediction if just Aaron Judge had an average year. The hr bailed out Joe's incompetence out all season long. In fact, before game 4 the Yankees only had 1 rbi not via the HR in this series.
Every year I watch the playoffs and the most successful teams manufacture runs when necessary, mostly because playoff pitchers are playoff pitchers because they are stingy with runners on base. Joe never did it during the season and now his players are rusty when the opportunity arises - see Torreyes straying too far off the bag in the pivotal game 2. He never uses the hit and run, his players never hit behind the runner with 2 strikes and he never even starts a runner to keep out of the dp. He's unprepared, even though he used this tool efficiently in his 2009 run and watched Torre do it during the dynasty years.
I guess he's the smart one because no one ever second guesses the manager when the team doesn't plate the lead off double with a hit but woe betide the manager who gives up an out via the bunt and doesn't get the run in.
But, sure, get rid of the bum who managed them to this point (and possibly beyond).
Wasn't that the Mets two years ago? It all came together for the Yankees this year. This may be their only shot. I'll bet Cashman is kicking himself right now for not going after Verlander harder.
I've liked him as a manger since he was in Florida.
Baseball fans love to bitch and complain about mangers. Girardi had a very forgettable night during game 2. As bad as it gets for a manager. But I'm pretty sure that's a mistake he'll never make again.
The 180 people have done in a 3-4 day span has been entertaining.... but it's postseason baseball, I supposed emotions run wild this time of year.
On the other hand, he's no tactician. His bullpen usage this year was a step back from the past, notably his reluctance to stop using pitchers who were clearly struggling. His loyalty to first Clippard and then Betances/Chapman cost them several games.
You could definitely do a lot worse.
The last two WS champion managers were big proponents of small ball.
I've liked him as a manger since he was in Florida.
Baseball fans love to bitch and complain about mangers. Girardi had a very forgettable night during game 2. As bad as it gets for a manager. But I'm pretty sure that's a mistake he'll never make again.
The 180 people have done in a 3-4 day span has been entertaining.... but it's postseason baseball, I supposed emotions run wild this time of year.
I assure you, that night is the absolute polar opposite of "forgettable."
Alas, my point remains, I think the good outweighs the bad with him. Any manager who is around a few years will wind up with fans criticizing him. It's just the nature of the game - it's rife with second guessing and hindsight.
You could certainly do much worse.
I was afraid he would start to lose the clubhouse going into games 3 & 4. If that happened, there would need to be a real disscussion of whether he was the right guy moving forward. BUT, the team rallied for him and picked him up after a bad game.
Girardi is still a top tier manager IMO. He can be too analytical at times and rely too much on his binder. But as long as he still had the support of his players he can still learn from his mistakes and continue to call better games.
The next 5 years or more have the potential to be big for the Yanks. We know what we have in Joe. As long as the players still have his back there is no reason to remove him. Its a big risk to move to an unknown at this point.
Baseball is fluky and the postseason is a crap-shoot.
Yes, a team is best built for the postseason, offensively, if they can combine HR power with the ability to produce runs in other ways.
But characterizing the Yankees as a HR-or-bust offense misses the mark.
HRs: 1st (in a HR-heavy park. Astros were 2nd, 241 to 238)
OBP: 3rd
Bating Average: 7th (teams above them were Astros, Rockies, Marlins, Nationals, Indians Braves).
Strikeout%: 18th (low, but not terrible, especially in light of HR powers) The Astros were 2nd in HR with least Ks. Remarkable!
Walk %: 3rd
Sac Flies: 2nd
Hits not from HRs: 15th
Stolen Bases: 12th
Baserunning Score (per FG): 5th
The Yankees left the most guys on base. The top 5 teams in baseball in LOB all made the playoffs (Yankees, Indians, Red Sox, Twins, Cubs). Houston was 8th in guys left on base.
Last year, the Cubs led MLB in guys left on base.
You saw the Yankees strand a lot of runners because you watched a very good offense all season long.
Pointing to 1-run games is also meaningless as it's a crapshoot as well. In 2012, everyone fellated the Orioles for how historic they were in 1-run games (22-9). In 2013, with a very similar roster they were 20-31 in such games.
The Yankees stranded 3.69 RISP per game. The Astros stranded 3.38.
The Yankees were 25th in batting average with RISP and 2 outs. No doubt it was something they struggled with.
But when you constantly put guys in scoring position, you don't have to be as efficient as other teams. You can't have it all with an offense.
You want to trade offenses with them?
The Yankees stranded 3.69 RISP per game. The Astros stranded 3.38.
The Yankees were 25th in batting average with RISP and 2 outs. No doubt it was something they struggled with.
But when you constantly put guys in scoring position, you don't have to be as efficient as other teams. You can't have it all with an offense.
It's interesting what we find to complain about. Guess it would be better if we had no runners to strand?
As a fan, it's clearly frustrating to have so many RISP. These are emotionally draining and very memorable experiences, so we hang onto them and turn resentful toward the club for not being able to convert. The alternative of producing more often would be less memorable as it becomes the norm.
We are strange creatures sometimes.
You are harping on one issue the Yanks have had (hitting with RISP and ignoring everything else.
It's also ridiculous that you are complaining that the Yankees offense isn't as good as the best offense in baseball-- a team that was projected to have a better offense than the Yankees even before the season started.
Are you in favor of trading Aaron Judge? I ask this facetiously, because he is the epitome of everything you are complaining about with this Yankees team. In these 2-out, RISP situations, he has a terrible batting average, a lot of strikeouts and saved only by a good number of home runs. Even worse, he doesn't try to bunt for hits.
The Yankees had the bunt play on in game two, with nobody out and Torreyes on 2nd. How'd that work out for them. Torreyes was thrown out, but hey, at least they didn't leave any men on base!
I'd still rather have Gardy swing the bat there. Pull the ball to the right side and who knows, maybe it gets through. I absolutely hate giving up an out, especially with a team that strikes out as much as this one.
Not saying you're wrong, and not second guessing their decision, it's just my preference
Information from Tom Tango (alias), who has been a consultant for MLB and NHL teams.
http://www.tangotiger.net/re24.html - ( New Window )
In other words, with a number of players who aren't used to bunting, it might not even be a wise strategy even in a walk off situation.
The Yankees had the bunt play on in game two, with nobody out and Torreyes on 2nd. How'd that work out for them. Torreyes was thrown out, but hey, at least they didn't leave any men on base!
I already addressed Torreyes upthread, but feel free to ignore it. It's the laziest move in sports to knock a failed sacrifice bunt but flash back to the bottom of the 6th inning on Sunday night in a 0-0 game. Hicks leads off with a walk, Gardner up with Judge and Sanchez to follow - doesn't bunt (probably because of the failed bunt attempt of Friday), but grounds into double play. Immediately following - Judge walk and Sanchez single - the run would have scored. I assume I was the only person in the tristate area cursing Girardi for not bunting Gardner. Bird bails Joe out an inning later so I guess all is well - as long as the hrs keep coming- but playoff history says they won't.
I think that the success this season has obscured what we have all seen over the past several years. Girardi is overly reliant on his binder and has little to no feel for the flow of the game- that manifestly showed in his removal of CC in game 2.
Girardi also does not seem to grasp strategy or nuances well either. If it isn't in the binder, it isn't in his head.
Finally, his handling of young pitchers- especially young relievers- is terrible.
I think that Girardi is in the same situation as Buck Showalter was before Torre- he was the manager that the team needed at the time- but as the team changes- the need for a new manager was apparent. I think Girardi was just the manager that the Yanks needed in their vets years- but as the team transitions to young players, a more instinctive approach to the game- as well as use of strategy is necessary- both BIG weaknesses of Girardi.
Want some possible replacements? Don Wakamatsu would be at the top of my list.
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There is enough data now to prove it. That's why teams don't do it.
The Yankees had the bunt play on in game two, with nobody out and Torreyes on 2nd. How'd that work out for them. Torreyes was thrown out, but hey, at least they didn't leave any men on base!
I already addressed Torreyes upthread, but feel free to ignore it. It's the laziest move in sports to knock a failed sacrifice bunt but flash back to the bottom of the 6th inning on Sunday night in a 0-0 game. Hicks leads off with a walk, Gardner up with Judge and Sanchez to follow - doesn't bunt (probably because of the failed bunt attempt of Friday), but grounds into double play. Immediately following - Judge walk and Sanchez single - the run would have scored. I assume I was the only person in the tristate area cursing Girardi for not bunting Gardner. Bird bails Joe out an inning later so I guess all is well - as long as the hrs keep coming- but playoff history says they won't.
Actually, the laziest thing in all of sports is to assume that everything would have played out exactly the same way if rewound and put in another position. So if Gardner successfully bunts Hicks over, and assuming success is another issue all together btw, assuming that the next two batters play out the exact same way is asinine. You don't know how it would have played out.
The Yankees have failed a million times this season trying to play the "bunt em over" game. Friday was just example number one million. With this lineup, you simply don't give up outs in the 6th inning.
Girardi may decide it's time to move on. He would be highly sought after, and he might feel that 10 years in one place is enough and needs a change
If stats were the be all and end all then Girardi would have 5 rings as a manager. My argument all along has been that scoring runs in the playoffs is much harder than the regular season and managers who are playoff bound need to prepare for this by priming their team for small ball in case they need to manufacture runs in October, something Girardi did only one season that I can recall, I'll let you guess which. I'd be very curious if the stats posted above can be parsed to show if there is any difference between regular and post season.