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Eli Manning is DONE

EddieNYG : 11/5/2017 2:38 pm
He is missing wide open receivers. His pocket awareness with feeling pressure keeps getting worse and he fumbled twice, losing one of them. That throw into double coverage looks like a rookie mistake.

I hate to admit this, but Eli Manning is part of the problem of why this offense is so atrocious.
agree  
micky : 11/5/2017 2:39 pm : link
unfortunately
.  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 2:41 pm : link
I still think Eli would be able to produce in the right offense. But we don't have that offense right now.

Eli isn't the type of QB who can overcome poor pass pro and a severe lack of weapons at this stage.

He can't carry a team like he did in 2011. He's older now - he's not Tom Brady. It is what it is.
Disagree  
mrvax : 11/5/2017 2:41 pm : link
Eli has no time back there to throw the ball. Fix that first and then we'll talk. Brady would suck if you plugged him in for Manning.
Losing doesn't always bring  
prdave73 : 11/5/2017 2:41 pm : link
out the best in players.
Impossible to evaluate given the state of the roster.  
Britt in VA : 11/5/2017 2:42 pm : link
.
He has ALWAYS made those bad passes  
KentGraham : 11/5/2017 2:42 pm : link
The difference is he is no longer making the plays that made us forget the bad ones. This team is done, so I won't single him out and blame this season on him, but hopefully he's not the QB next year, it's time to move on. And it kills me to say that.
Also agree with Mrvax..  
prdave73 : 11/5/2017 2:42 pm : link
You can't expect much with Giants Oline. Sorry..
The organization's first mistake was letting go of TC  
SHO'NUFF : 11/5/2017 2:42 pm : link
The second mistake will be letting go of Eli.
Draft a QB  
Ben in Tampa : 11/5/2017 2:44 pm : link
And let Eli play out his deal
he is missing more  
Dankbeerman : 11/5/2017 2:45 pm : link
then he used to. he doesnt have they same ability to get the ball where he wants. he is taking hits on most of his misses though. not sure he is done but definate regression
With Roger Lewis  
NoPeanutz : 11/5/2017 2:45 pm : link
Tavaris King and Travis Rudolph trying to get open, with that kindergarten O-line, I'm shocked anybody can evaluate Manning. (in the rain!)
RE: he is missing more  
Britt in VA : 11/5/2017 2:46 pm : link
In comment 13676403 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
then he used to. he doesnt have they same ability to get the ball where he wants. he is taking hits on most of his misses though. not sure he is done but definate regression


He is also playing with guys that were on the couch 3 weeks ago.

Chemistry is important.
Are you blind. He has had plenty of time, particulalry  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2017 2:47 pm : link
on the throws he has missed.

He's playing awful and worse than anybody on that Offense right now...
This is  
Reb8thVA : 11/5/2017 2:47 pm : link
Silly 😜
Eli has time to throw  
EddieNYG : 11/5/2017 2:47 pm : link
And he is missing WIDE open WRs today.

I've been the biggest Eli Manning defender/supporter, but he looks like an old, washed up QB.
Huge Eli supporter but it's over.  
Miami_JintsFan : 11/5/2017 2:48 pm : link
He's missing so many throws even when he has time. The WCO is taking away what he did best. Interesting to see how it all ends but Eli has earned great respect for what hes done.
Goff was done last year too  
WillVAB : 11/5/2017 2:49 pm : link
Now he’s the next Brady.

Funny how a legitimate coaching staff and the right player acquisitions can change the perception of a QB.
He's missing open receivers  
George : 11/5/2017 2:50 pm : link
and throwing into double coverage. Remarkable that he's doing both.

We all knew he wouldn't play forever; now it's time to admit that his time has come.
I'm not going to sit here and argue with people that have made  
Britt in VA : 11/5/2017 2:50 pm : link
up their mind.

All I'm saying is we don't have a professional offense right now. Not the roster, not the playbook, not the coach. Nothing about our offense is good.

If you want to pin that all on one guy, go ahead. I don't agree, but I'm also done wasting my time arguing about it.

Here's the deal. Eli will be the starting QB for the Giants next year. He's not getting bench, Webb is likely not the future, and Eli, barring catastrophic injury, WILL BE THE STARTING QB OF THE NEW YORK GIANTS WEEK ONE OF 2018.

It's a lock.
RE: Goff was done last year too  
EddieNYG : 11/5/2017 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13676422 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Now he’s the next Brady.

Funny how a legitimate coaching staff and the right player acquisitions can change the perception of a QB.


Goff was a ROOKIE.

Eli is a two-time Super Bowl MVP.

Big difference
.  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 2:52 pm : link
The biggest problem is that so many people here have to have it one way or another.

Either Eli is the problem or his circumstances are the problem.

Here's the truth...

Eli hasn't played well, but has also been hurt by poor protection, injuries and some crappy coaching.

It actually CAN be both things.
There is no excuse  
hassan : 11/5/2017 2:53 pm : link
he is missing open players period. Watch younger players drafted at qb--make plays Eli doesnt escaping rush.

Eli is a NY legend and deserves better than this in a lot of ways. But there is no transformation for NYG that will turn it around. He will only decline go forward.

And comparing Goff to Eli? Goff was a rookie! Nobody crapped on Eli for his bad 2004 games. What an inappropriate and terrible comparison.
RE: .  
Britt in VA : 11/5/2017 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13676436 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The biggest problem is that so many people here have to have it one way or another.

Either Eli is the problem or his circumstances are the problem.

Here's the truth...

Eli hasn't played well, but has also been hurt by poor protection, injuries and some crappy coaching.

It actually CAN be both things.


Sure it can, but how can you evaluate it? I know we have a bunch of professional scouts here on BBI, but still...
RE: There is no excuse  
EddieNYG : 11/5/2017 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13676440 hassan said:
Quote:
he is missing open players period. Watch younger players drafted at qb--make plays Eli doesnt escaping rush.

Eli is a NY legend and deserves better than this in a lot of ways. But there is no transformation for NYG that will turn it around. He will only decline go forward.

And comparing Goff to Eli? Goff was a rookie! Nobody crapped on Eli for his bad 2004 games. What an inappropriate and terrible comparison.

Exactly!
RE: Goff was done last year too  
Sammo85 : 11/5/2017 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13676422 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Now he’s the next Brady.

Funny how a legitimate coaching staff and the right player acquisitions can change the perception of a QB.


True. However Eli turns 37 in January. The hourglass is running out on
Eli.
RE: .  
micky : 11/5/2017 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13676436 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The biggest problem is that so many people here have to have it one way or another.

Either Eli is the problem or his circumstances are the problem.

Here's the truth...

Eli hasn't played well, but has also been hurt by poor protection, injuries and some crappy coaching.

It actually CAN be both things.


this
Britt  
hassan : 11/5/2017 2:56 pm : link
its not all on Eli for sure. Lots of suck on this shit squad. But we saw Eli perform admirably on a bad 09, 14, 15 squad and lift the team. He's lost a lot from that form is evident.

Dont disagree he will start. But I was hoping Giants could take the stance of drafting o line and rb and d and avoid a qb pick.

looks like they will have to make one now with an early pick.
RE: I'm not going to sit here and argue with people that have made  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/5/2017 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13676426 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
up their mind.

All I'm saying is we don't have a professional offense right now. Not the roster, not the playbook, not the coach. Nothing about our offense is good.

If you want to pin that all on one guy, go ahead. I don't agree, but I'm also done wasting my time arguing about it.

Here's the deal. Eli will be the starting QB for the Giants next year. He's not getting bench, Webb is likely not the future, and Eli, barring catastrophic injury, WILL BE THE STARTING QB OF THE NEW YORK GIANTS WEEK ONE OF 2018.

It's a lock.


Who said it's all on him?
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13676442 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13676436 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The biggest problem is that so many people here have to have it one way or another.

Either Eli is the problem or his circumstances are the problem.

Here's the truth...

Eli hasn't played well, but has also been hurt by poor protection, injuries and some crappy coaching.

It actually CAN be both things.



Sure it can, but how can you evaluate it? I know we have a bunch of professional scouts here on BBI, but still...


That's what people in the front office are being paid to do.

It is both things. It's not one or the other. But it's up to them to figure out the best course of action going forward.

I'm not sure Reese will survive this mess - so, whoever comes next is going to have to make a decision.

I am of the belief that this isn't all Eli's fault - but that he does have a hand in it. If I had strong convictions about a QB in this draft, I would certainly take him.
RE: RE: I'm not going to sit here and argue with people that have made  
Britt in VA : 11/5/2017 2:59 pm : link
In comment 13676462 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13676426 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


up their mind.

All I'm saying is we don't have a professional offense right now. Not the roster, not the playbook, not the coach. Nothing about our offense is good.

If you want to pin that all on one guy, go ahead. I don't agree, but I'm also done wasting my time arguing about it.

Here's the deal. Eli will be the starting QB for the Giants next year. He's not getting bench, Webb is likely not the future, and Eli, barring catastrophic injury, WILL BE THE STARTING QB OF THE NEW YORK GIANTS WEEK ONE OF 2018.

It's a lock.



Who said it's all on him?


That's all that's being talked about on the offensive side of the ball on the game thread. That's what this thread is about.

All I'm saying is, for me, it's impossible to evaluate Eli right now based on a. the state of the roster, and b. the state of the coaching staff.
Whatever QB we draft next year doesn't have to start next year.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 3:00 pm : link
You have Eli there to take the hits and losses in what will be a major rebuilding season, and hand it off to the kid when things are in place and we are ready to win/or at least compete to be a winning team again.
no doubt he is done.  
zeroburrito : 11/5/2017 3:02 pm : link
going to need to find a qb fast with how good the other quarterbacks in the division.
Reese  
PaulN : 11/5/2017 3:02 pm : link
Ruined Eli, he had time to build him an offensive line and failed to do it miserably, only an idiot wouldn't understand Eli had to have a good offensive line with a good running game so he could use play action pass which is the strength of his game. Eli now has taken too many shots and has become gun shy, Giants need to move forward without him,, you don't build around a 37 year old QB. The team should have already been built long ago.
RE: Whatever QB we draft next year doesn't have to start next year.  
Sean : 11/5/2017 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13676471 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
You have Eli there to take the hits and losses in what will be a major rebuilding season, and hand it off to the kid when things are in place and we are ready to win/or at least compete to be a winning team again.


Those days are over Dave. You don’t take a QB in the top 5 of the draft and sit him.
RE: Goff was done last year too  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/5/2017 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13676422 WillVAB said:
Quote:


Funny how a legitimate coaching staff and the right player acquisitions can change the perception of a QB.




Was the coaching staff somehow not legitimate for those years? I'll give you talent, as we all agreed that was lacking, but these throws aren't where they're supposed to be, and that's not on the intended receiver. And him fumbling on contact regularly isn't on coaching when you're in year 13 of your career.
RE: RE: Whatever QB we draft next year doesn't have to start next year.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 3:04 pm : link
In comment 13676483 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 13676471 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


You have Eli there to take the hits and losses in what will be a major rebuilding season, and hand it off to the kid when things are in place and we are ready to win/or at least compete to be a winning team again.



Those days are over Dave. You don’t take a QB in the top 5 of the draft and sit him.


They can if they want, or play him. It's going to be the new head coach and GM's decision.
Or dropping to the ground  
George : 11/5/2017 3:04 pm : link
because he can't make his feet work fast enough to scramble out of the way.
RE: RE: Whatever QB we draft next year doesn't have to start next year.  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13676483 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 13676471 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


You have Eli there to take the hits and losses in what will be a major rebuilding season, and hand it off to the kid when things are in place and we are ready to win/or at least compete to be a winning team again.



Those days are over Dave. You don’t take a QB in the top 5 of the draft and sit him.


Didn't we do that with Eli?
Been saying he’s done for a while now  
#10* : 11/5/2017 3:06 pm : link
Hearing footsteps is a very real thing for an NFL Qb. He has a wife and kids now and clearly doesn’t want brain damage.

The best thing the giants can do is pull him from this game in a way conceding and throw Webb out there to see whether they need to draft a Qb at the top of the draft or if they have their guy in house.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 3:07 pm : link
Also, Patrick Mahomes was drafted 10th overall and is sitting this year.

You can still do it when the circumstances make sense.
Eli Manning is a HOFer today  
EddieNYG : 11/5/2017 3:11 pm : link
But I think he's done. Yes, he has a poor supporting cast, but when he's had time to throw this year, he has missed on a ton of wide open receivers. Today has been no different.

And calling that timeout cause the play clock runs down for the second time today is a disgrace.
RE: Reese  
adamg : 11/5/2017 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13676479 PaulN said:
Quote:
Ruined Eli, he had time to build him an offensive line and failed to do it miserably, only an idiot wouldn't understand Eli had to have a good offensive line with a good running game so he could use play action pass which is the strength of his game. Eli now has taken too many shots and has become gun shy, Giants need to move forward without him,, you don't build around a 37 year old QB. The team should have already been built long ago.


A line of that quality even with who we've drafted would cost an additional 30 million in cap space per year. In a cap league that's virtually untenable if you want to have a defense and retain guys like Collins and Beckham.

Eli is a major negative given all the needs associated with his game. If he didn't cost 25 mill per or the league wasn't a hard cap, it'd be a different scenario.
RE: With Roger Lewis  
Les in TO : 11/5/2017 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13676406 NoPeanutz said:
Quote:
Tavaris King and Travis Rudolph trying to get open, with that kindergarten O-line, I'm shocked anybody can evaluate Manning. (in the rain!)
he has engrams and Shepard both of whom have talent
Anyone who thinks...  
Chris in Philly : 11/5/2017 3:18 pm : link
they can judge just about anyone on this roster they way it is currently constructed is being ridiculous...
RE: RE: With Roger Lewis  
Chris in Philly : 11/5/2017 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13676584 Les in TO said:
Quote:
In comment 13676406 NoPeanutz said:


Quote:


Tavaris King and Travis Rudolph trying to get open, with that kindergarten O-line, I'm shocked anybody can evaluate Manning. (in the rain!)

he has engrams and Shepard both of whom have talent


Oh stop.
RE: RE: Goff was done last year too  
WillVAB : 11/5/2017 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13676485 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13676422 WillVAB said:


Quote:




Funny how a legitimate coaching staff and the right player acquisitions can change the perception of a QB.





Was the coaching staff somehow not legitimate for those years? I'll give you talent, as we all agreed that was lacking, but these throws aren't where they're supposed to be, and that's not on the intended receiver. And him fumbling on contact regularly isn't on coaching when you're in year 13 of your career.


Prior years have nothing to do with this year. This year I see a coaching staff who struggles to even find the right starting guys from his 53. I see a vanilla, pre-season style scheme offensively. I see opponents consistently exploit our weaknesses on offense and defense, and a FO that’s too stupid or stubborn to address those weaknesses.

I get it that a sizable group wants Eli to be the sacrificial lamb, but he can still play — and a shiny new QB won’t solve the problems. At this point there’s a better chance a draft pick QB or Webb will become David Carr than a legitimate franchise QB.
I know  
crick n NC : 11/5/2017 3:19 pm : link
i definitely listen to BBI when I need to know how well or poorly a player is currently playing. So much knowledge! Love it! Thanks Guys!
RE: .  
NYG07 : 11/5/2017 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13676506 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Also, Patrick Mahomes was drafted 10th overall and is sitting this year.

You can still do it when the circumstances make sense.


And in the case for the Giants it makes zero sense. Look how good Wentz and Goff are in their second years after going through their lumps as rookies. Having Eli under center next year will only delay the rebuild. Take a QB high and let him play next year. Use the $10M in cap savings in 2018 and the completely opened up cap in 2019 from the Eli release to build a team around the young QB.
...  
Mdgiantsfan : 11/5/2017 3:21 pm : link
Love Eli, but definitely time to look for the next franchise qb! Any hint of pressure and he looks like he’s shell-shocked which is understandable.
It is not about blaming Eli  
Vanzetti : 11/5/2017 3:22 pm : link
Yeah, maybe some want to do that in the heat of the moment.

But the real question is whether you want to do a major rebuild around a 37 year old QB. I just don't see that as an intelligent approach when you have the opportunity to possibly draft your next franchise QB.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/5/2017 3:23 pm : link
I think last year is a bit more of an indictment on Eli than this one, if you're arguing for a decline. He gets a 100% pass from me this year.

With that said, he played well against the Packers in the playoffs. I think he has some football left - but I don't feel that confident that he'll be a top ten QB again - and I'm doubtful he gets back to that level with NYG. I hope I'm wrong on that last point of course.
RE: It is not about blaming Eli  
Britt in VA : 11/5/2017 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13676660 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Yeah, maybe some want to do that in the heat of the moment.

But the real question is whether you want to do a major rebuild around a 37 year old QB. I just don't see that as an intelligent approach when you have the opportunity to possibly draft your next franchise QB.


You don't have to build the next ten years around him, but you also don't throw a rookie that you covet out there to the wolves with a junior college level offensive roster.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13676650 NYG07 said:
Quote:
In comment 13676506 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Also, Patrick Mahomes was drafted 10th overall and is sitting this year.

You can still do it when the circumstances make sense.



And in the case for the Giants it makes zero sense. Look how good Wentz and Goff are in their second years after going through their lumps as rookies. Having Eli under center next year will only delay the rebuild. Take a QB high and let him play next year. Use the $10M in cap savings in 2018 and the completely opened up cap in 2019 from the Eli release to build a team around the young QB.


We have no idea where they're going to draft or who they're going to draft - or what the roster is going to look like.

Again - if the circumstances make sense, it's not out of the question for Eli to be the starter Week 1. It happens.

It's not something you can completely rule out. Especially not now.
He' s been a JAG for five seasons  
Les in TO : 11/5/2017 3:28 pm : link
And now he resembles Dave brown happy feet style
Umm, find me one person who last season  
GiantFilthy : 11/5/2017 3:29 pm : link
said Goff can no longer make the throws and may be washed up.

That post doesn't make sense.
RE: RE: It is not about blaming Eli  
NYG07 : 11/5/2017 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13676669 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13676660 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Yeah, maybe some want to do that in the heat of the moment.

But the real question is whether you want to do a major rebuild around a 37 year old QB. I just don't see that as an intelligent approach when you have the opportunity to possibly draft your next franchise QB.



You don't have to build the next ten years around him, but you also don't throw a rookie that you covet out there to the wolves with a junior college level offensive roster.


Having skill players like Beckham, Shephard and Engram is not anywhere near a junior college level offense. They absolutely need to upgrade the offensive line, but that is a good situation for a rookie QB.
RE: Anyone who thinks...  
Gary JC : 11/5/2017 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13676609 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
they can judge just about anyone on this roster they way it is currently constructed is being ridiculous...


Yup!
Eli  
AcidTest : 11/5/2017 3:31 pm : link
is part of the problem. He's old, immobile, and is missing receivers. The porous OL, journeyman WRs, nonexistent running game, bad defense, and horrible ST are a bigger problem. As someone said, it's both.

The Giants aren't playing Webb this year. Whether they should or not, they won't. But they won't hesitate to play him or someone else if this happens again next season.
The difference is age  
George : 11/5/2017 3:32 pm : link
Were Eli 27, or even 32, I'd say, "damn, his supporting cast sucks; but if we add a few important pieces in the off-season, we might be okay next year."

But Eli is 37, and I don't think even a vastly improved roster in 2018 will make up for overthrows, dumb picks, and total lack of athleticism.

It's time to retire. You don't rebuild with a 37 year-old QB.

It's time for the Giants to get a mobile, athletic quarterback who can make things happen even when a bad OL allows pressure up the middle.

I can't wait until Eli is gone..  
Gary JC : 11/5/2017 3:32 pm : link
...and you guys get 10 years of Randy Dean and Jerry Golsteyn.
Yeah,  
George : 11/5/2017 3:37 pm : link
because then we'd start seasons at 1-7, which would totally suck.

Oh, wait...
RE: .  
jcn56 : 11/5/2017 3:43 pm : link
In comment 13676436 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The biggest problem is that so many people here have to have it one way or another.

Either Eli is the problem or his circumstances are the problem.

Here's the truth...

Eli hasn't played well, but has also been hurt by poor protection, injuries and some crappy coaching.

It actually CAN be both things.


Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Hard to evaluate Eli fairly in this one given the OL and WR injuries.
50,000 passing yards for Eli.  
Britt in VA : 11/5/2017 3:44 pm : link
Congrats to him on his HOF career.
For those of us that believe Eli is done,  
Miami_JintsFan : 11/5/2017 3:44 pm : link
with the way the current roster is constructed, should we get something for him now? If we all concede it's time to rebuild, wouldn't it be beneficial to obtain a pick from a team in contention this year that's only a QB away from competing? I'd hate to see Eli in another uniform but if it's time to rebuild wouldn't it be better to move him and get something back?
RE: For those of us that believe Eli is done,  
Britt in VA : 11/5/2017 3:46 pm : link
In comment 13676816 Miami_JintsFan said:
Quote:
with the way the current roster is constructed, should we get something for him now? If we all concede it's time to rebuild, wouldn't it be beneficial to obtain a pick from a team in contention this year that's only a QB away from competing? I'd hate to see Eli in another uniform but if it's time to rebuild wouldn't it be better to move him and get something back?


Frankly, it doesn't matter what you think a. because you're not making the decision, and b. he has a no trade clause so even if you were making the decisions he could veto you.
I love when people...  
Chris in Philly : 11/5/2017 3:46 pm : link
think he’s done but want to trade him.

“He can’t play anymore but let’s get some picks for him!”
love eli  
japanhead : 11/5/2017 3:50 pm : link
but he has been way off on a number of his passes today. granted he's down his top two WRs and is probably out of synch with shep.. but eli has looked like dogshit pretty much from the second quarter onward.. sad to see him go out like this
Tell him Britt  
Bluesbreaker : 11/5/2017 3:50 pm : link
STFU already
some of you guys are so clueless
Can we please list the passes he’s way off on?  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 4:00 pm : link
The offense is in shambles. The blocking sucks. The defense gives 3rd and 33. And the overall thesis is Eli needs to be replaced? Yeah, you know football.
RE: Can we please list the passes he’s way off on?  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 4:05 pm : link
In comment 13676882 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
The offense is in shambles. The blocking sucks. The defense gives 3rd and 33. And the overall thesis is Eli needs to be replaced? Yeah, you know football.


There have been a few - he's missing some plays that are there to be made.

But he has to be close to perfect now - otherwise forget it. And that's not on him.
RE: Disagree  
djm : 11/5/2017 4:15 pm : link
In comment 13676378 mrvax said:
Quote:
Eli has no time back there to throw the ball. Fix that first and then we'll talk. Brady would suck if you plugged him in for Manning.


Eli literally missed about 4-5 hr plays today. He missed 2-3 every fucking week. I'm not even counting his typical inaccuracies or misses but the guy had WRs running free all over the field and he missed them time and time again. Then there are the fumbles which happen every single week. And the lack of mobility. And this horse shit pop gun chuck and duck offense that Eli endorsed.

Eli isn't helping here. It's as clear as day.
He certainly was part of the problem today  
joeinpa : 11/5/2017 4:17 pm : link
If you want to be objective, he did have time to throw today, the running game was effective, and there are quarterbacks that are making plays with lines as bad or worse than the Giants
RE: Impossible to evaluate given the state of the roster.  
djm : 11/5/2017 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13676385 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


Impossible?? Really.

He's not helping. He's missing open WRs every single quarter of every single game. His hot streaks don't last that long and his cold streaks are longer. He can't turn a broken play around at all.

Eli is not a very good qb anymore here. Maybe it isn't his fault but it sure as fuck isn't working.
RE: RE: Can we please list the passes he’s way off on?  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 4:27 pm : link
In comment 13676905 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13676882 PetesHereNow said:


Quote:


The offense is in shambles. The blocking sucks. The defense gives 3rd and 33. And the overall thesis is Eli needs to be replaced? Yeah, you know football.



There have been a few - he's missing some plays that are there to be made.

But he has to be close to perfect now - otherwise forget it. And that's not on him.


As you say, if he’s not perfect, he gets the blame. He misses Shepherd by a yard and the pitchforks are out. Strange how it’s always the same cast of characters blaming him.

A lot of quarterbacks would struggle behind this line. You are asking the impossible of a quarterback that is on the downside of a great career. Give him Beckham back, a line worth a shit and a decent defense and we’re in the playoffs.
Eli is the least of our issues  
PatersonPlank : 11/5/2017 4:30 pm : link
Our defense has given up a huge amount of passing yards, and gave up 51 points at home to the Rams. They suck once again. The OL is improving though. We scored 17 and likely should have gotten more.
RE: Eli is the least of our issues  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/5/2017 4:31 pm : link
In comment 13677054 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Our defense has given up a huge amount of passing yards, and gave up 51 points at home to the Rams. They suck once again. The OL is improving though. We scored 17 and likely should have gotten more.


Eli was awful most of the game. I don't understand what is accomplished by keeping your head in the sand when it comes to acknowledging that.
RE: Umm, find me one person who last season  
WillVAB : 11/5/2017 4:31 pm : link
In comment 13676718 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
said Goff can no longer make the throws and may be washed up.

That post doesn't make sense.


There were plenty of talking heads last year who said Goff was a bust and not a NFL caliber QB. There have been plenty of talking heads apologizing for those comments this year.
Sorry  
hassan : 11/5/2017 4:31 pm : link
not buying the cant evaluate argument. This team is rotten to its core due to coaching but its clear Eli is not the player he was.

He's not returning to top 10 status either as a qb. his play is more in the 20-25 as a starter right now and even last year.

And forget about a trade. Not a team out there would trade for him. Bortles is starting to even be respectable.....

Those often defending his play point to his lack of personnel and line and dismiss his critics as 'know nothings'. Yet guys were open and he missed. When he has had time he does not make plays downfield and he fumbles way too much now.

And to those claiming the Giants will be stuck with Jerry Goldstyns and the like. Ridicuolous. The NFL and drafting has changed a lot. Collins was respectable and came to the team 5 seasons after Simms. In the seasons between 84 and 17 really the only period the Giants did not have a respectable starter was 94-98.

Seems like some of the pro-Eli crowd would like the Giants to go through a
70s slump in order to proclaim they were correct.
RE: RE: RE: Can we please list the passes he’s way off on?  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/5/2017 4:33 pm : link
In comment 13677038 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:

As you say, if he’s not perfect, he gets the blame. He misses Shepherd by a yard and the pitchforks are out. Strange how it’s always the same cast of characters blaming him.

A lot of quarterbacks would struggle behind this line. You are asking the impossible of a quarterback that is on the downside of a great career. Give him Beckham back, a line worth a shit and a decent defense and we’re in the playoffs.


The other side of that is it's always the same cast of characters who absolutely refuse to blame the QB for anything regardless of how he plays. He missed more than just that one Sheppard throw. Heck, he missed 3 throws to Sheppard alone.
RE: RE: RE: Can we please list the passes he’s way off on?  
WillVAB : 11/5/2017 4:37 pm : link
In comment 13677038 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13676905 arcarsenal said:


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In comment 13676882 PetesHereNow said:


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The offense is in shambles. The blocking sucks. The defense gives 3rd and 33. And the overall thesis is Eli needs to be replaced? Yeah, you know football.



There have been a few - he's missing some plays that are there to be made.

But he has to be close to perfect now - otherwise forget it. And that's not on him.



As you say, if he’s not perfect, he gets the blame. He misses Shepherd by a yard and the pitchforks are out. Strange how it’s always the same cast of characters blaming him.

A lot of quarterbacks would struggle behind this line. You are asking the impossible of a quarterback that is on the downside of a great career. Give him Beckham back, a line worth a shit and a decent defense and we’re in the playoffs.


This.

If the Giants go the classic rebuild route this off-season it’s going to be a long time until they’re competitive again — and that’s assuming a new QB is actually a legit franchise QB.

This team doesn’t need to be blown up. There is talent to build around despite the results on the field. The organization just needs to commit to addressing the deficiencies. Rebuild the OL, find actual players at the LB position, add a pash rusher and they’re right back in the mix next year.
They've missed the playoffs for what will be 6 seasons in a row.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 4:39 pm : link
They are 1-7 right now. You absolutely need a total and complete rebuild. Stop with the lame excuses. They've done it this way for 6 years, and it hasn't worked. It needs to be torn down. That is 100% obvious.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Can we please list the passes he’s way off on?  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 4:40 pm : link
In comment 13677068 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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In comment 13677038 PetesHereNow said:


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As you say, if he’s not perfect, he gets the blame. He misses Shepherd by a yard and the pitchforks are out. Strange how it’s always the same cast of characters blaming him.

A lot of quarterbacks would struggle behind this line. You are asking the impossible of a quarterback that is on the downside of a great career. Give him Beckham back, a line worth a shit and a decent defense and we’re in the playoffs.



The other side of that is it's always the same cast of characters who absolutely refuse to blame the QB for anything regardless of how he plays. He missed more than just that one Sheppard throw. Heck, he missed 3 throws to Sheppard alone.


Name the throws then. Show me screen shots. Shepherd dropped a couple too. Engram dropped one. Vereen dropped one. The offense is so predictable that I told my dad Gallman up the middle on the play he fumbled when the game still mattered. You know why? When the back lines up two yards behind Eli, it’s ALWAYS the quick halfback dive.
The offense is predictable as all hell. And you’re blaming the guy who’s least to blame. But yes, he is on the downside of his career. Is that not placing blame?
Papa & the postgame guys destroyed Eli today.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 4:41 pm : link
They're right. He missed a bunch of throws.
RE: RE: RE: Can we please list the passes he’s way off on?  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 4:42 pm : link
In comment 13677038 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13676905 arcarsenal said:


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In comment 13676882 PetesHereNow said:


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The offense is in shambles. The blocking sucks. The defense gives 3rd and 33. And the overall thesis is Eli needs to be replaced? Yeah, you know football.



There have been a few - he's missing some plays that are there to be made.

But he has to be close to perfect now - otherwise forget it. And that's not on him.



As you say, if he’s not perfect, he gets the blame. He misses Shepherd by a yard and the pitchforks are out. Strange how it’s always the same cast of characters blaming him.

A lot of quarterbacks would struggle behind this line. You are asking the impossible of a quarterback that is on the downside of a great career. Give him Beckham back, a line worth a shit and a decent defense and we’re in the playoffs.


I would mostly agree.

Eli is probably an average-ish QB at this point - he can't carry an offense. He needs the right pieces around him. But if those pieces are there and you can run the ball and play some defense, you can absolutely win with Eli still.

A team that is completely falling apart defensively, has no WR's left, and can't pass protect well - it's a recipe for disaster. Eli cannot survive that.

He's left plays on the field at times - he's not blameless - but people here are trying to put everything on him or are acting like this is his fault. It's not. There's a lot of things going wrong here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Can we please list the passes he’s way off on?  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 4:45 pm : link
In comment 13677112 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13677038 PetesHereNow said:


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In comment 13676905 arcarsenal said:


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In comment 13676882 PetesHereNow said:


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The offense is in shambles. The blocking sucks. The defense gives 3rd and 33. And the overall thesis is Eli needs to be replaced? Yeah, you know football.



There have been a few - he's missing some plays that are there to be made.

But he has to be close to perfect now - otherwise forget it. And that's not on him.



As you say, if he’s not perfect, he gets the blame. He misses Shepherd by a yard and the pitchforks are out. Strange how it’s always the same cast of characters blaming him.

A lot of quarterbacks would struggle behind this line. You are asking the impossible of a quarterback that is on the downside of a great career. Give him Beckham back, a line worth a shit and a decent defense and we’re in the playoffs.



I would mostly agree.

Eli is probably an average-ish QB at this point - he can't carry an offense. He needs the right pieces around him. But if those pieces are there and you can run the ball and play some defense, you can absolutely win with Eli still.

A team that is completely falling apart defensively, has no WR's left, and can't pass protect well - it's a recipe for disaster. Eli cannot survive that.

He's left plays on the field at times - he's not blameless - but people here are trying to put everything on him or are acting like this is his fault. It's not. There's a lot of things going wrong here.


I think if you gave him a decent line that he could depend on that his average play would rise to above average. A defense that makes a tackle on 3rd and 33 would be nice too. That is what made a 3 pt game into a 10 or game.
Eli missed a TD pass when the game  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 4:46 pm : link
was still a very close game, too.
Some people sure are happy on here because our QB is getting old  
PatersonPlank : 11/5/2017 4:49 pm : link
SB MVP QB losing a step.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 4:51 pm : link
Eli did miss throws he's got to make. But I think with better-constructed teams, QB's will get a couple more chances than that.

Eli is basically in a position where he gets a look like that 2-3 times a game MAX. If he doesn't hit the throw, he probably doesn't get another shot at it. A lot of QB's on better teams will get a couple more opps.

Regardless - given the QB class that is upcoming and where we're going to likely be picking, we've got to take one of them if the next GM here has strong convictions.

Rosen, Jackson, Rudolph... you could make a case for any of those guys I think.

I want to see someone come in here and make a commitment to building strong trenches and controlling the LOS.

I want the Giants to be a team that can control TOP, run the ball, and shut down the run. I want to see effective play-action passing. I want to see a tough, physical football team.

I hope the next GM will be someone who has a great eye for line play and can build this team from the inside out.
RE: Eli missed a TD pass when the game  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 4:52 pm : link
In comment 13677128 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
was still a very close game, too.


That’s the Shepherd pass I’m speaking about earlier. So the one shot he had at a big play doesn’t work and it’s all his fault? Nope. Yes, he’s on the downside but you can win with him if you fix the line, get an offensive mind calling the plays, and find a defense.
We need to flush the whole thing  
AcesUp : 11/5/2017 4:52 pm : link
This entire franchise has been inconsistently mediocre since 2011 and so has Eli's play. This bottom has finally fallen out. We are what are. It's time to turn the page.

As far Eli's future, I think a lot of it will have to do with what he wants. If he wants to play the place of mentor/placeholder for a young QB while we rebuild, it may work. If he wants a shot with a contender willing to pay in a trade (say Jax or Denver), then we should consider moving him for future assets and replacing him with a true journeyman for that role. Whatever it is, the plan for this franchise better be a reboot because a bandaid is not going to cut it....it's time.
RE: RE: Eli missed a TD pass when the game  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 4:53 pm : link
In comment 13677153 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13677128 Dave in Hoboken said:


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was still a very close game, too.



That’s the Shepherd pass I’m speaking about earlier. So the one shot he had at a big play doesn’t work and it’s all his fault? Nope. Yes, he’s on the downside but you can win with him if you fix the line, get an offensive mind calling the plays, and find a defense.


He missed more than one. And, nah. He's going to be 37 years old next season. You find a new QB, especially if you could possibly get the top pick in the 2018 draft.
RE: They've missed the playoffs for what will be 6 seasons in a row.  
WillVAB : 11/5/2017 4:55 pm : link
In comment 13677096 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
They are 1-7 right now. You absolutely need a total and complete rebuild. Stop with the lame excuses. They've done it this way for 6 years, and it hasn't worked. It needs to be torn down. That is 100% obvious.


How would you tear it down and rebuild?
RE: RE: RE: Eli missed a TD pass when the game  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13677159 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13677153 PetesHereNow said:


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In comment 13677128 Dave in Hoboken said:


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was still a very close game, too.



That’s the Shepherd pass I’m speaking about earlier. So the one shot he had at a big play doesn’t work and it’s all his fault? Nope. Yes, he’s on the downside but you can win with him if you fix the line, get an offensive mind calling the plays, and find a defense.



He missed more than one. And, nah. He's going to be 37 years old next season. You find a new QB, especially if you could possibly get the top pick in the 2018 draft.


And if that pick is a bust? You cannot throw a young quarterback behind this line as currently constructed. You have to fix the other stuff first. Look at Prescott on the last drive. Show me anytime Eli has had a consistent pocket like that since 2008. There’s nobody near Prescott. There’s a 1000 problems with the Giants right now and Eli is about number 63.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eli missed a TD pass when the game  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13677176 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13677159 Dave in Hoboken said:


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In comment 13677153 PetesHereNow said:


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In comment 13677128 Dave in Hoboken said:


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was still a very close game, too.



That’s the Shepherd pass I’m speaking about earlier. So the one shot he had at a big play doesn’t work and it’s all his fault? Nope. Yes, he’s on the downside but you can win with him if you fix the line, get an offensive mind calling the plays, and find a defense.



He missed more than one. And, nah. He's going to be 37 years old next season. You find a new QB, especially if you could possibly get the top pick in the 2018 draft.



And if that pick is a bust? You cannot throw a young quarterback behind this line as currently constructed. You have to fix the other stuff first. Look at Prescott on the last drive. Show me anytime Eli has had a consistent pocket like that since 2008. There’s nobody near Prescott. There’s a 1000 problems with the Giants right now and Eli is about number 63.


Wait a minute. Because the pick might be a 'bust', you don't make a pick to replace a near 40 year old QB?

Welp, looks like the Eli excuse makers have officially run out of excuses.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Eli missed a TD pass when the game  
Sarcastic Sam : 11/5/2017 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13677188 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13677176 PetesHereNow said:


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In comment 13677159 Dave in Hoboken said:


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In comment 13677153 PetesHereNow said:


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In comment 13677128 Dave in Hoboken said:


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was still a very close game, too.



That’s the Shepherd pass I’m speaking about earlier. So the one shot he had at a big play doesn’t work and it’s all his fault? Nope. Yes, he’s on the downside but you can win with him if you fix the line, get an offensive mind calling the plays, and find a defense.



He missed more than one. And, nah. He's going to be 37 years old next season. You find a new QB, especially if you could possibly get the top pick in the 2018 draft.



And if that pick is a bust? You cannot throw a young quarterback behind this line as currently constructed. You have to fix the other stuff first. Look at Prescott on the last drive. Show me anytime Eli has had a consistent pocket like that since 2008. There’s nobody near Prescott. There’s a 1000 problems with the Giants right now and Eli is about number 63.



Wait a minute. Because the pick might be a 'bust', you don't make a pick to replace a near 40 year old QB?

Welp, looks like the Eli excuse makers have officially run out of excuses.


37 really isn't that near 40, is it? IS IT?
No he isnt  
KWALL2 : 11/5/2017 5:02 pm : link
A few missed throws in the rain. That's all t was.

Goff had the game of his life and also missed wide open guys.

The difference is he has wide open guys all day. Eli didn't.

Eli isn't the problem. Not close.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 5:02 pm : link
I don't think they need to tear everything down in terms of personnel.

I think they need to bring someone in here who has a clear plan and wants to create an identity here. Someone who can mold the personnel and commit to a certain philosophy.

The Giants have no identity at all right now. What are they?

They're nothing but a crappy football team.

While it's true we've had a lot of injuries - it's clear that this team is not well-coached. The talent we went into this season with should not have yielded a team this poor.

Even if the roster was flawed.. it shouldn't have taken until mid-October to get one fucking win.
That’s not what I said.  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 5:05 pm : link
I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.
RE: That’s not what I said.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 5:07 pm : link
In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.


Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.
RE: .  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 5:07 pm : link
In comment 13677195 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I don't think they need to tear everything down in terms of personnel.

I think they need to bring someone in here who has a clear plan and wants to create an identity here. Someone who can mold the personnel and commit to a certain philosophy.

The Giants have no identity at all right now. What are they?

They're nothing but a crappy football team.

While it's true we've had a lot of injuries - it's clear that this team is not well-coached. The talent we went into this season with should not have yielded a team this poor.

Even if the roster was flawed.. it shouldn't have taken until mid-October to get one fucking win.


I 4000% agree with you.
RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
dpinzow : 11/5/2017 5:08 pm : link
In comment 13677206 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:


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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.



Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.


McGlinchey from ND is the one franchise offensive tackle available
RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 5:12 pm : link
In comment 13677206 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:


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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.



Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.


Here’s what I do. If I’m in top 5, I move down and take Nelson and then with my two second round picks, I find myself a center and a linebacker that can run and make plays. Toss in a vet offensive tackle and away we go. But like arc said, a complete philosophy change is needed. First.
RE: RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 5:14 pm : link
In comment 13677223 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13677206 Dave in Hoboken said:


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In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:


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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.



Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.



Here’s what I do. If I’m in top 5, I move down and take Nelson and then with my two second round picks, I find myself a center and a linebacker that can run and make plays. Toss in a vet offensive tackle and away we go. But like arc said, a complete philosophy change is needed. First.


I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.
Eli Manning is NOT done  
BBelle21 : 11/5/2017 5:15 pm : link
Hoping McAdoo is though
RE: RE: RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 5:19 pm : link
In comment 13677231 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13677223 PetesHereNow said:


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In comment 13677206 Dave in Hoboken said:


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In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:


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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.



Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.



Here’s what I do. If I’m in top 5, I move down and take Nelson and then with my two second round picks, I find myself a center and a linebacker that can run and make plays. Toss in a vet offensive tackle and away we go. But like arc said, a complete philosophy change is needed. First.



I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.


I’m not trying to win one more before Eli retires. I’m trying to give the next quarterback a chance at success. Shoehorning a Josh Rosen as the pick because he might fit the mold as the next franchise quarterback isn’t the answer. Because if you don’t fix the line and the other things, a young quarterback is not going to handle the NY media like Eli does. In fact, a kid like Rosen might make this powder keg even worse. Change the philosophy. Fix the coaching staff. Get a staff that doesn’t speak in terms like complimentary football and the Duke.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 5:25 pm : link
In comment 13677257 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13677231 Dave in Hoboken said:


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In comment 13677223 PetesHereNow said:


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In comment 13677206 Dave in Hoboken said:


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In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:


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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.



Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.



Here’s what I do. If I’m in top 5, I move down and take Nelson and then with my two second round picks, I find myself a center and a linebacker that can run and make plays. Toss in a vet offensive tackle and away we go. But like arc said, a complete philosophy change is needed. First.



I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.



I’m not trying to win one more before Eli retires. I’m trying to give the next quarterback a chance at success. Shoehorning a Josh Rosen as the pick because he might fit the mold as the next franchise quarterback isn’t the answer. Because if you don’t fix the line and the other things, a young quarterback is not going to handle the NY media like Eli does. In fact, a kid like Rosen might make this powder keg even worse. Change the philosophy. Fix the coaching staff. Get a staff that doesn’t speak in terms like complimentary football and the Duke.


They can get a new front office and coaching staff. And that new staff is probably going to want a QB of their own right away. It'd be impossible to fix an entire OLine in 1 year anyway. Just look at Reese.
You may not need to fix the whole OL  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 5:36 pm : link
Pretty sure Pugh and Flowers can be pieces somewhere in the five starters. Nelson and a draft pick take the other two spots. Sign some vet linemen. It can be improved. Done? Maybe not completely. But it’s be steps in the right direction.
RE: You may not need to fix the whole OL  
AcesUp : 11/5/2017 5:43 pm : link
In comment 13677311 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
Pretty sure Pugh and Flowers can be pieces somewhere in the five starters. Nelson and a draft pick take the other two spots. Sign some vet linemen. It can be improved. Done? Maybe not completely. But it’s be steps in the right direction.


We're past "fix the OL" at this point. New GM, new coach, revamped scouting department. We need to shift our priorities and resources away from building the best possible team next year to building the best possible team for the next 5-10 years. That's what a lot of us mean by a rebuild. We should be picking in the Top 5, there's about 5-6 QBs in play for the top two rounds right now, a couple of those guys will be in play at our unusually high pick. That's where our focus should be.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 5:44 pm : link
The OL has actually been passable as far as the run game has gone in recent weeks.

We have rushed for over 100 yards in 3 of our last 4 games.

The problem is that we can't throw the ball now. Some of that is because we can't pass protect - some is because we lost our best 2 WR's and only got our 3rd back this week. Some is because Eli hasn't played well.

That, and the defense has struggled way more than it was supposed to.

As much as the OL has been a target - I think this team could have competed with a Flowers-Jerry-Jones-Fluker-Pugh line if we had been willing to use more heavy formations and commit more to running the ball early in the year.

The philosophy earlier in the year was awful and we had the wrong players playing.
The OL could definitely be fixed  
WillVAB : 11/5/2017 6:00 pm : link
In one off-season. Center looks like the only decent FA spot among potential OL upgrades, so take one of those guys. Trade down in the draft and take one of or both of the ND prospects. Now all you need is a guard for a completely revamped OL, and the Giants would probably be ok with Fluker or Jerry at that spot given the rest of the OL upgrades.

In a non trade down scenario you take McGlinchey or Nelson and go right back to the OL in the 2nd or 3rd round.

RE: RE: You may not need to fix the whole OL  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 6:02 pm : link
In comment 13677331 AcesUp said:
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In comment 13677311 PetesHereNow said:


Quote:


Pretty sure Pugh and Flowers can be pieces somewhere in the five starters. Nelson and a draft pick take the other two spots. Sign some vet linemen. It can be improved. Done? Maybe not completely. But it’s be steps in the right direction.



We're past "fix the OL" at this point. New GM, new coach, revamped scouting department. We need to shift our priorities and resources away from building the best possible team next year to building the best possible team for the next 5-10 years. That's what a lot of us mean by a rebuild. We should be picking in the Top 5, there's about 5-6 QBs in play for the top two rounds right now, a couple of those guys will be in play at our unusually high pick. That's where our focus should be.


why is Webb automatically overlooked as a possible solution though? I think the draft should be used to procure the 2018-2028 version of Chris Snee and Kareem McKenzie
RE: .  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 6:06 pm : link
In comment 13677334 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The OL has actually been passable as far as the run game has gone in recent weeks.

We have rushed for over 100 yards in 3 of our last 4 games.

The problem is that we can't throw the ball now. Some of that is because we can't pass protect - some is because we lost our best 2 WR's and only got our 3rd back this week. Some is because Eli hasn't played well.

That, and the defense has struggled way more than it was supposed to.

As much as the OL has been a target - I think this team could have competed with a Flowers-Jerry-Jones-Fluker-Pugh line if we had been willing to use more heavy formations and commit more to running the ball early in the year.

The philosophy earlier in the year was awful and we had the wrong players playing.


When you have linemen like Jerry and Fluker, you know there’s going to be a missed assignment at some point though. Jerry isn’t stout enough in the run game and Fluker is doomed if he doesn’t get his hands on the rusher.
If we get a new regime,  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 6:09 pm : link
they might want an entirely new OL. And you really can't blame them, if that's the case. Re: Pugh misses games every single year; multiple games at that. Going forward with this OLine, especially with a new regime, is kind of crazy..
RE: RE: RE: You may not need to fix the whole OL  
AcesUp : 11/5/2017 6:12 pm : link
In comment 13677386 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
In comment 13677331 AcesUp said:


Quote:


In comment 13677311 PetesHereNow said:


Quote:


Pretty sure Pugh and Flowers can be pieces somewhere in the five starters. Nelson and a draft pick take the other two spots. Sign some vet linemen. It can be improved. Done? Maybe not completely. But it’s be steps in the right direction.



We're past "fix the OL" at this point. New GM, new coach, revamped scouting department. We need to shift our priorities and resources away from building the best possible team next year to building the best possible team for the next 5-10 years. That's what a lot of us mean by a rebuild. We should be picking in the Top 5, there's about 5-6 QBs in play for the top two rounds right now, a couple of those guys will be in play at our unusually high pick. That's where our focus should be.



why is Webb automatically overlooked as a possible solution though? I think the draft should be used to procure the 2018-2028 version of Chris Snee and Kareem McKenzie


I never said he wasn't. But Webb's presence does not preclude them from taking a QB high, not at all. In fact, I kind of like the idea of staggered cluster draft at that spot. It worked for the skins with Griffin and Cousins.
I don't believe Eli is done .....  
short lease : 11/5/2017 6:16 pm : link
he maybe done with this team .... but, with a good/great team around him I believe he could get his job done.

Look at Payton's last year - HE WAS DONE physically and if Von Miller didn't play like superman that game - Denver does not win.

Payton did enough for his team not to lose. Eli could certainly do that and a bit more.

To declare that "Eli is done" ... how could you tell? That statement implies that a 1-7 record is Eli's fault? Seriously?
RE: If we get a new regime,  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 6:17 pm : link
In comment 13677403 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
they might want an entirely new OL. And you really can't blame them, if that's the case. Re: Pugh misses games every single year; multiple games at that. Going forward with this OLine, especially with a new regime, is kind of crazy..


True and I’d be alright with that. I just don’t want to say our first round pick should be definitely a QB, and then you throw him into this shit show and possibly ruin a number 1 pick. If you have to pick the QB, either fix the line too or keep throwing Eli to the wolves.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You may not need to fix the whole OL  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 6:19 pm : link
In comment 13677412 AcesUp said:
Quote:
In comment 13677386 PetesHereNow said:


Quote:


In comment 13677331 AcesUp said:


Quote:


In comment 13677311 PetesHereNow said:


Quote:


Pretty sure Pugh and Flowers can be pieces somewhere in the five starters. Nelson and a draft pick take the other two spots. Sign some vet linemen. It can be improved. Done? Maybe not completely. But it’s be steps in the right direction.



We're past "fix the OL" at this point. New GM, new coach, revamped scouting department. We need to shift our priorities and resources away from building the best possible team next year to building the best possible team for the next 5-10 years. That's what a lot of us mean by a rebuild. We should be picking in the Top 5, there's about 5-6 QBs in play for the top two rounds right now, a couple of those guys will be in play at our unusually high pick. That's where our focus should be.



why is Webb automatically overlooked as a possible solution though? I think the draft should be used to procure the 2018-2028 version of Chris Snee and Kareem McKenzie



I never said he wasn't. But Webb's presence does not preclude them from taking a QB high, not at all. In fact, I kind of like the idea of staggered cluster draft at that spot. It worked for the skins with Griffin and Cousins.


I don’t think it worked for the Skins. RG3 was used incorrectly and Cousins does not look like the long term answer there, and they wasted many premium picks trying to fix that.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13677395 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
In comment 13677334 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The OL has actually been passable as far as the run game has gone in recent weeks.

We have rushed for over 100 yards in 3 of our last 4 games.

The problem is that we can't throw the ball now. Some of that is because we can't pass protect - some is because we lost our best 2 WR's and only got our 3rd back this week. Some is because Eli hasn't played well.

That, and the defense has struggled way more than it was supposed to.

As much as the OL has been a target - I think this team could have competed with a Flowers-Jerry-Jones-Fluker-Pugh line if we had been willing to use more heavy formations and commit more to running the ball early in the year.

The philosophy earlier in the year was awful and we had the wrong players playing.



When you have linemen like Jerry and Fluker, you know there’s going to be a missed assignment at some point though. Jerry isn’t stout enough in the run game and Fluker is doomed if he doesn’t get his hands on the rusher.


To be clear, I think John Jerry sucks. Fluker has his warts too.

Point is - we actually have run the football a bit in recent weeks which is something we couldn't do at all earlier in the year.

It just seems obvious that this staff mis-identified what our best OL configuration was this summer. A guy like Bobby Hart should never have been handed a starting OT job.

To compound things - we ran close to zero heavy TE sets earlier in the season.

Paul Perkins was also given the starting RB job which didn't look deserved at all. The other guys only got a chance because he got hurt. Ditto Hart.

We obviously need OL help - but some of the issues could have been alleviated with better recognition of the strengths of the players we had and playcalling.
Cousins could have been but they botched the contract  
AcesUp : 11/5/2017 6:23 pm : link
RG3 busted, QBs bust...which was my point. I don't think people appreciate how difficult it is finding a QB and how rare it is to be picking in the top 5. This dumpster fire of season may be an opportunity, one they shouldn't waste on a guard.
He's a pocket quarterback, with no pocket....  
Fishmanjim57 : 11/5/2017 6:40 pm : link
Reese has ignored this fact for many, many seasons.
Seeing Manning at this stage in his career, without the much needed protection he should be given is disrespectful to him as a player.
I feel bad for Eli, but with Reese as his GM, he will never get the protection he needs.
FIRE REESE NOW!
RE: Eli is the least of our issues  
djm : 11/5/2017 7:44 pm : link
In comment 13677054 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Our defense has given up a huge amount of passing yards, and gave up 51 points at home to the Rams. They suck once again. The OL is improving though. We scored 17 and likely should have gotten more.


Right. He's the least of our worries. The single most important position in all of sports is leading the shittiest offense in our lifetime and he's the least of our worries? Fascinating.

Eli is not playing well. It's as clear as day. He's not terrible. Not by any stretch but he's not good either. He's a jag. He's along for the ride. And the ride stinks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/5/2017 8:20 pm : link
In comment 13677231 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.


The "Let's win 1 more before Eli retires" mantra has been used as an organizational mantra in a lot of ways for a number of their personnel decisions and it has backfired spectacularly.

RE: I'm not going to sit here and argue with people that have made  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2017 9:18 pm : link
In comment 13676426 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
up their mind.

All I'm saying is we don't have a professional offense right now. Not the roster, not the playbook, not the coach. Nothing about our offense is good.

If you want to pin that all on one guy, go ahead. I don't agree, but I'm also done wasting my time arguing about it.

Here's the deal. Eli will be the starting QB for the Giants next year. He's not getting bench, Webb is likely not the future, and Eli, barring catastrophic injury, WILL BE THE STARTING QB OF THE NEW YORK GIANTS WEEK ONE OF 2018.

It's a lock.

It's far from a lock. And if he is, it may very likely be in the 2004 Kurt Warner role.
RE: I can't wait until Eli is gone..  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2017 9:31 pm : link
In comment 13676748 Gary JC said:
Quote:
...and you guys get 10 years of Randy Dean and Jerry Golsteyn.

This line of thinking puzzles me. It's not a punitive response to wonder if Eli is done (IMO); rather, it's a valid question about whether a QB in his late 30s is in physical decline. So why would anyone wish for Eli's successor(s) to be bad in order to somehow validate Eli's career?

What a strange way to approach being a fan.
Build an OL because QBs can bust out?  
BrianLeonard23 : 11/5/2017 9:49 pm : link
OL can bust out too.
RE: Build an OL because QBs can bust out?  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 9:51 pm : link
In comment 13678002 BrianLeonard23 said:
Quote:
OL can bust out too.


It's a causal relationship though. A good OL can hide a QB's deficiencies, see Prescott, Dak.

A bad OL will cripple your team. Fix the line, and you can win at quarterback with a good running game and a good defense.
He's not done  
montanagiant : 11/5/2017 9:54 pm : link
This fantasy that a QB would come in here with this horrid offense and do anything better is silly on face value alone.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 9:57 pm : link
In comment 13677732 BigBlueinChicago said:
Quote:
In comment 13677231 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.



The "Let's win 1 more before Eli retires" mantra has been used as an organizational mantra in a lot of ways for a number of their personnel decisions and it has backfired spectacularly.


Exactly. And some fans are using it because they are bigger fans of particular players than they are of the actual team. If Eli isn't done yet, he's not far from it. If we have a top 3 pick this year, which it's looking like we will more and more every week, you go for the QB, especially in a draft that is not filled with great offensive lineman.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
WillVAB : 11/5/2017 10:17 pm : link
In comment 13678033 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13677732 BigBlueinChicago said:


Quote:


In comment 13677231 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.



The "Let's win 1 more before Eli retires" mantra has been used as an organizational mantra in a lot of ways for a number of their personnel decisions and it has backfired spectacularly.




Exactly. And some fans are using it because they are bigger fans of particular players than they are of the actual team. If Eli isn't done yet, he's not far from it. If we have a top 3 pick this year, which it's looking like we will more and more every week, you go for the QB, especially in a draft that is not filled with great offensive lineman.


There are just as many questions about the QBs in this draft as there are about the OL. Quite frankly, I don’t trust the draftniks or scouts or whomever when it comes to evaluating the OL coming out. A few years ago the draft was supposed to be loaded at OL with guys like Greg Robinson as can’t miss, and most turned out to be busts. Last year the class was supposed to suck, and guys like Cam Robinson and Ramcyk are playing integral roles in their team’s success.

There’s always a “franchise qb” available every draft ever year when you’re picking at the top of the draft. Doesn’t mean there’s actually a franchise qb there waiting.
All the people saying Eli isn’t the problem...  
BlueManFu : 11/5/2017 10:22 pm : link
I would clarify the point by saying ‘Eli + his cap number’ is 100% an obvious disadvantage to the current and future team success. When you’ve got a top 5 salary cap number you’d better be Rodgers or Brady. We are getting Josh McCown type production for that huge cap number. Can’t really deny any of the above.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: That’s not what I said.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2017 10:23 pm : link
In comment 13678073 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13678033 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 13677732 BigBlueinChicago said:


Quote:


In comment 13677231 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.



The "Let's win 1 more before Eli retires" mantra has been used as an organizational mantra in a lot of ways for a number of their personnel decisions and it has backfired spectacularly.




Exactly. And some fans are using it because they are bigger fans of particular players than they are of the actual team. If Eli isn't done yet, he's not far from it. If we have a top 3 pick this year, which it's looking like we will more and more every week, you go for the QB, especially in a draft that is not filled with great offensive lineman.



There are just as many questions about the QBs in this draft as there are about the OL. Quite frankly, I don’t trust the draftniks or scouts or whomever when it comes to evaluating the OL coming out. A few years ago the draft was supposed to be loaded at OL with guys like Greg Robinson as can’t miss, and most turned out to be busts. Last year the class was supposed to suck, and guys like Cam Robinson and Ramcyk are playing integral roles in their team’s success.

There’s always a “franchise qb” available every draft ever year when you’re picking at the top of the draft. Doesn’t mean there’s actually a franchise qb there waiting.


Same can be said for top tier OL, especially this year.
RE: All the people saying Eli isn’t the problem...  
WillVAB : 11/5/2017 10:28 pm : link
In comment 13678078 BlueManFu said:
Quote:
I would clarify the point by saying ‘Eli + his cap number’ is 100% an obvious disadvantage to the current and future team success. When you’ve got a top 5 salary cap number you’d better be Rodgers or Brady. We are getting Josh McCown type production for that huge cap number. Can’t really deny any of the above.


What kind of return are the Packers getting on Rodgers cap number now? Rodgers turns 35 next year — does he have osteoporosis at his age and should the Packers look for a QB too?
RE: All the people saying Eli isn’t the problem...  
PetesHereNow : 11/5/2017 10:31 pm : link
In comment 13678078 BlueManFu said:
Quote:
I would clarify the point by saying ‘Eli + his cap number’ is 100% an obvious disadvantage to the current and future team success. When you’ve got a top 5 salary cap number you’d better be Rodgers or Brady. We are getting Josh McCown type production for that huge cap number. Can’t really deny any of the above.


If we had a good defense, a decent running game, and an offensive line, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But, when your starting offense includes guys like Roger Lewis, John Jerry, and Bobby Hart, you have to give the guy with HOF (near HOF, whichever) a little bit of slack. Yes, I realize he's 37 years old, but unlike his brother, he has not yet suffered a debilitating neck injury. Should we think about life after Eli? Sure. Should we force a number 1 pick on a QB just because he is a QB? No.
What  
Howyadoin : 11/6/2017 12:37 am : link
a joke...
I've yet to see any evidence  
BlackLight : 11/6/2017 12:41 am : link
that Eli has lost anything in terms of his ability to play quarterback.
RE: RE: All the people saying Eli isn’t the problem...  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/6/2017 12:44 am : link
In comment 13678088 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13678078 BlueManFu said:


Quote:


I would clarify the point by saying ‘Eli + his cap number’ is 100% an obvious disadvantage to the current and future team success. When you’ve got a top 5 salary cap number you’d better be Rodgers or Brady. We are getting Josh McCown type production for that huge cap number. Can’t really deny any of the above.



What kind of return are the Packers getting on Rodgers cap number now? Rodgers turns 35 next year — does he have osteoporosis at his age and should the Packers look for a QB too?


Rodgers is one of the best QB's of all time. Eli Manning is not. And if when Rodgers comes back he struggles mightily for the next couple of years in a row; then yeah; they'll be really concerned in GB..
You know, most teams with a franchise QB  
Matt M. : 11/6/2017 1:32 am : link
would be trying to capitalize on the last few productive years of his career. Instead, the Giants wreck their OL and continue to sign retreads to address the black hole. They run a mickey mouse offense with the same personnel packages and handful of shitty plays almost all the time. Defenses have been diagnosing the Giants plays for 2 years now. But, yeah, he's the fucking problem.

To me, you get rid of Reese, McAdoo, and the rest of the staff and you get vintage Manning...assuming the new regime can manage to bring in 3 or 4 new OL to start.
Eli isn’t done, but may be done here..  
Sean : 11/6/2017 7:05 am : link
The days of rookie QB’s sitting behind a veteran QB for 1-2 years are over. If a QB is invested with a top 5 pick, he is going to play immediately.

You can still absolutely win with Eli, but a new football administration will not want to start with a 37 year QB.
Anybody that couldn't evaluate Eli yesterday  
Jimmy Googs : 11/6/2017 7:29 am : link
is in denial.

He had sufficient time to throw, deep guys open, guys open with some easy touch passes and others on underneath crossing routes. This on top of a decent running game in the first half.

He missed way too many throws AND didn't take care of the ball.
eli  
giantfan2000 : 11/6/2017 8:17 am : link
Eli turnovers have been the start of our unraveling in most games this year.

the fact of the matter is while our OL isn't good - but many OL aren't great In NFL now the difference is these teams have mobile QBs that can extend plays and avoid sacks

RE: RE: RE: All the people saying Eli isn’t the problem...  
WillVAB : 11/6/2017 9:03 am : link
In comment 13678193 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13678088 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 13678078 BlueManFu said:


Quote:


I would clarify the point by saying ‘Eli + his cap number’ is 100% an obvious disadvantage to the current and future team success. When you’ve got a top 5 salary cap number you’d better be Rodgers or Brady. We are getting Josh McCown type production for that huge cap number. Can’t really deny any of the above.



What kind of return are the Packers getting on Rodgers cap number now? Rodgers turns 35 next year — does he have osteoporosis at his age and should the Packers look for a QB too?



Rodgers is one of the best QB's of all time. Eli Manning is not. And if when Rodgers comes back he struggles mightily for the next couple of years in a row; then yeah; they'll be really concerned in GB..


Ok then don’t hide your argument behind Eli’s age. Just say you don’t think Eli is any good and you think the Giants should move on.

Realistically, the Packers should be more worried than the Giants re: the qb position — Rogers has actually gotten hurt a decent amount, he’s getting older, and his style of play doesn’t age well.
RE: Anybody that couldn't evaluate Eli yesterday  
crick n NC : 11/6/2017 9:11 am : link
In comment 13678306 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
is in denial.

He had sufficient time to throw, deep guys open, guys open with some easy touch passes and others on underneath crossing routes. This on top of a decent running game in the first half.

He missed way too many throws AND didn't take care of the ball.


I'm not sure you understand team chemistry. A qb's timing with his targets are vital, also take into account that Macs offense seems to be terrible all the way around.

Mac did have success as OC, but keep these few things in mind, teams may have adjusted, and coughlin still had his offense mixed into the offense. When coughlin left there is a very good chance Mac got rid of the coughlin part of the offense, which would explain why the offense suddenly went to crap.

Manning has shown he can make the throws, he didn't just suddenly lose it, but right now he's severely handicapped. Thanks is team isn't just a bad team, it's arguably a bad team without effort which is much worse
Eli is healthy and can still make the throws  
Thegratefulhead : 11/6/2017 9:16 am : link
His brain and knowledge still exist. I am a huge Eli supporter. When your team is 1-7 and playing like shit, you will get high draft pick with good QBs available, it would be monumentally stupid not to try and evaluate the Rookie QB on the roster. Full time reps in practice and to play in games. Anyone who thinks otherwise is being blindly loyal to a player over franchise. They are one and seven with a top 3 pick looming. This needs to be done.
RE: RE: Anybody that couldn't evaluate Eli yesterday  
Jimmy Googs : 11/6/2017 9:22 am : link
In comment 13678510 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 13678306 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


is in denial.

He had sufficient time to throw, deep guys open, guys open with some easy touch passes and others on underneath crossing routes. This on top of a decent running game in the first half.

He missed way too many throws AND didn't take care of the ball.



I'm not sure you understand team chemistry. A qb's timing with his targets are vital, also take into account that Macs offense seems to be terrible all the way around.

Mac did have success as OC, but keep these few things in mind, teams may have adjusted, and coughlin still had his offense mixed into the offense. When coughlin left there is a very good chance Mac got rid of the coughlin part of the offense, which would explain why the offense suddenly went to crap.

Manning has shown he can make the throws, he didn't just suddenly lose it, but right now he's severely handicapped. Thanks is team isn't just a bad team, it's arguably a bad team without effort which is much worse


While not extreme, you are in more denial than you are not.

And nobody said Eli suddenly lost it, you just missed the signs for the past several years...
You freaking guys persist in folly  
HomerJones45 : 11/6/2017 9:25 am : link
first, the OC had to go, then the DC had to go, you had to have St Stephen of the Blitz, then "oh, the HC is old and has to go", now it's the qb has to go.

Like poor marksmen, you keep missing the target. You aren't fixing anything unless you fix the organization. The front office sucks and the interfering owners are serial bunglers. Wake the fuck up already.
RE: RE: RE: Anybody that couldn't evaluate Eli yesterday  
crick n NC : 11/6/2017 9:33 am : link
In comment 13678543 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13678510 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 13678306 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


is in denial.

He had sufficient time to throw, deep guys open, guys open with some easy touch passes and others on underneath crossing routes. This on top of a decent running game in the first half.

He missed way too many throws AND didn't take care of the ball.



I'm not sure you understand team chemistry. A qb's timing with his targets are vital, also take into account that Macs offense seems to be terrible all the way around.

Mac did have success as OC, but keep these few things in mind, teams may have adjusted, and coughlin still had his offense mixed into the offense. When coughlin left there is a very good chance Mac got rid of the coughlin part of the offense, which would explain why the offense suddenly went to crap.

Manning has shown he can make the throws, he didn't just suddenly lose it, but right now he's severely handicapped. Thanks is team isn't just a bad team, it's arguably a bad team without effort which is much worse



While not extreme, you are in more denial than you are not.

And nobody said Eli suddenly lost it, you just missed the signs for the past several years...


I don't agree. I laid out a few possible reasons above, but there are more than just those. We'll agree we don't see it the same, no problem.
Fair enough.  
Jimmy Googs : 11/6/2017 9:50 am : link
I just don't agree its okay for you to say Eli has shown he can make the throws. At this point, its becoming far to rare to see him do it (and do it enough), especially since he is fighting an uphill battle in this offense. He always had flaws but enough of other advantages to make him a positive contributor.

Those days are done as he is a negative one now...
RE: He has ALWAYS made those bad passes  
Jersey55 : 11/6/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13676388 KentGraham said:
Quote:
The difference is he is no longer making the plays that made us forget the bad ones. This team is done, so I won't single him out and blame this season on him, but hopefully he's not the QB next year, it's time to move on. And it kills me to say that.

what you say here happens to all QBs and right now its happening to Eli, most good QBs end up on the scrap heap because they stayed around too long and Eli is ding that right now because the money is so good..
RE: It is not about blaming Eli  
Carson53 : 11/6/2017 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13676660 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Yeah, maybe some want to do that in the heat of the moment.

But the real question is whether you want to do a major rebuild around a 37 year old QB. I just don't see that as an intelligent approach when you have the opportunity to possibly draft your next franchise QB.
.

He is not the only problem, but he is not part of the solution as well. Look at how often he fumbles as well,
been dong that his whole career too. It's amazing how people tend to neglect that aspect of his game.
They need to draft a QB, let Eli play one more year,
and move on.
He can finish his career elsewhere, if he wants to
keep playing.
You can't have him on the books for about 40 Mill. the next two years, makes no sense.
Eli Manning is the only player on offense worth anything  
BlackburnBalledOut : 11/6/2017 12:46 pm : link
who would play well throwing to king randolph and lewis, theyre all at best practice squad player. not to mention the worst o line ive ever seen and the defense, holy hell the defense didnt show up.

this team has given up. its all due to the coach this new offense he implemented is just terrible, they cant run they ball, they dont run the ball when they can and they only thwo it 5 yards the qb is not the problem, its the coach
RE: I'm not going to sit here and argue with people that have made  
short lease : 11/10/2017 7:25 am : link
In comment 13676426 Britt in VA said:
[quote] up their mind.

"All I'm saying is we don't have a professional offense right now. Not the roster, not the playbook, not the coach. Nothing about our offense is good."

Yikes .... didn't they hire Mac because he was suppose to be some kind of offensive genius?

Letting TC go was like keeping Allie Sherman and letting Vince Lombardi go to the Packers.

let's see  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/10/2017 8:58 am : link
Eli has been without his top receivers, he is a pocket passer in an offense with no pocket, he is under pressure all game from four-man rushes, and defenses are begging us to run as they sit back in coverage.

And Eli is the problem? Eli isn't a runner. Never has been. Which QB who isn't a runner is succeeding in this offense?

Brady? Even when he had this situation, he was manhandled by the Chiefs and everyone thought he was done. The biggest difference is that he had Bill Belichick running the show who adapts his schemes and strategies to match his personnel. An even if Brady could succeed with this offense, there are many who consider him the single greatest QB of all time (though I'm not one of them).

QBs are not supposed to be facing immediate pressure all game while facing variants of Cover 2.

Someone tell me how a good non-running QB is making this offense work having to throw into pass coverage to guys like King, Lewis and Rudolph?
You don't need to be a runner to succeed in these circumstances,  
Keith : 11/10/2017 9:03 am : link
but you do need pocket presence and fearlessness. Fearlessness to not be scared to get hit. Eli is frightened as most 37 year olds would be at this point in their careers. That's where he's diminished, IMO. Physically, I don't see him diminished. Mentally, he's not the same guy.

There are a lot of reasons this offense has been so bad for 2 seasons, but I'm sorry, Eli is one of those reasons.
...  
EddieNYG : 11/10/2017 9:12 am : link
Eli missed WIDE OPEN receivers vs the Rams. He had Shepard for a TD and missed him. Had another WR in the end zone and threw it out of the end zone. He was inaccurate on crossing patterns. All of this with time to throw in the pocket.

How does a two time SB MVP have to call timeout early in the first half and second half because the play clock was gonna run out.

His ball security in the pocket is not very good for a 2 time SB MVP.

Yes, he has two WRs on IR and a poor OL, but when he's had time he has made inaccurate throws.

Can Eli play better and win another championship in the NFL? Maybe.

My gut feeling after watching that game Sunday was that he looked like a QB who was done.
Keith  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/10/2017 9:13 am : link
true, Eli would rather get rid of the ball than take a big hit out of self-preservation. But I'm not so sure I would rather have a QB who wants to stand in there. If that's the case, I fear every game will approach the 2012 NFCCG against the 49ers. I don't think any QB can withstand that every week, certainly not one I want to depend on for a season.
on the plays you reference Eddie  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/10/2017 9:16 am : link
the throw to Sheppard and the TD miss, I remember it differently. The Rams were barrelling down on him immediately and he had to get rid of it very early.

I'd also like to see the play again, but I remember feeling surprised that Sheppard didn't jump or lay out for it. It looked within arm's reach.
Paul, it changes the way defenses play you.  
Keith : 11/10/2017 9:16 am : link
Defenses know that Eli doesn't want to get hit and they know he's going to throw it up a few times to avoid it, its much easier to play defense. Its also easier for the dline as there is blood in the water.
what's easy for the DLine  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/10/2017 9:18 am : link
is rag-dolling guys like Fluker and Jerry. The D-line is getting pressure with four guys on a consistent basis and dropping LBs into coverage for all the short routes.

I really don't see what Eli is supposed to do in these situations.
Paul,  
Keith : 11/10/2017 9:20 am : link
that's the NFL. Not every QB has all day like Dak Prescott to sit back and scan the field and hit guys running open. You need to make accurate throws under duress. Eli cannot do that.

RE: You don't need to be a runner to succeed in these circumstances,  
Britt in VA : 11/10/2017 9:20 am : link
In comment 13684592 Keith said:
Quote:
but you do need pocket presence and fearlessness. Fearlessness to not be scared to get hit. Eli is frightened as most 37 year olds would be at this point in their careers. That's where he's diminished, IMO. Physically, I don't see him diminished. Mentally, he's not the same guy.

There are a lot of reasons this offense has been so bad for 2 seasons, but I'm sorry, Eli is one of those reasons.


What a crock of sh-t. Eli is scared?
Paul,  
Keith : 11/10/2017 9:21 am : link
alot of times yes, definitely not all the time. When he does have time, he's ducking and hearing footsteps. He's got happy feet back there. Trying to suggest that he's under pressure every drop back is being a little disingenuous.
Eli isn't done,  
Keith : 11/10/2017 9:23 am : link
but he's done on the giants. I don't think we will ever be able to win with Eli and this current situation. Eli would have to be in a situation like Dallas to win. A studly running game and lots of time to throw with little worry of getting hit.

RE: Eli isn't done,  
Britt in VA : 11/10/2017 9:25 am : link
In comment 13684617 Keith said:
Quote:
but he's done on the giants. I don't think we will ever be able to win with Eli and this current situation. Eli would have to be in a situation like Dallas to win. A studly running game and lots of time to throw with little worry of getting hit.


A lot of people keep saying that, and I'm not sure if it's because it's what they want, or what they believe.

Gun to your head, who is the starting QB of the Giants week one next season?
Britt, no offense, but I'm not interested  
Keith : 11/10/2017 9:29 am : link
in talking to you about Eli. I understand that you are a huge fan and unable to see things without bias. I can appreciate that because Eli has meant so much to the Giants and has never gotten the respect he deserves. I hate contributing to these threads because I don't want to come accross as anything other than a huge Eli fan who thinks its over.

Do I want to move on? Yes, but only because I don't see us winning with Eli, not because I don't like and appreciate Eli. As far as next year, I'm hoping there is a QB that we like that we draft early and trade Eli for assets.
Let's focus on just the one question, because that's what I'm curious  
Britt in VA : 11/10/2017 9:37 am : link
about....

Again, REALISTICALLY, who is the starting QB for the Giants week 1, next year?

I keep reading that Eli is done with the Giants....

1. He has two years left on his contract.
2. He has a no trade clause
3. There is not a viable replacement for him right now
4. Even if you draft one, why wouldn't you let him sit and learn behind one of the most professional workers in the league?
5. The offense, as currently constructed and coached, is not going to allow any QB to be successful.
6. The new coach has a bunch of reasons to keep Manning around. The league is built with parity so teams can turn things around quickly. There actually IS talent on this roster. A couple of thrifty offensive line signings by the new GM, and a new offensive philosophy, the new coach might be able to get something together and having a veteran QB to manage it is an asset.
7. The new coach could also hedge his bets by keeping Manning around while grooming his replacement, and if things go bad early, he can sit Manning (like Warner), and go with the rookie. Which would buy him some time because hey, it's a rookie QB that has to go through growing pains.

There is pretty much ZERO logical reasoning that says Eli Manning is done as a Giant.

Wishful thinking by some, perhaps, but not reality.
And you can call me a homer or whatever....  
Britt in VA : 11/10/2017 9:39 am : link
but what I just posted is completely logical. It's not emotional, it's completely rooted in the reality of the business decision that needs to be made on Manning.
RE: Let's focus on just the one question, because that's what I'm curious  
bigbluehoya : 11/10/2017 9:42 am : link
In comment 13684646 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
about....

Again, REALISTICALLY, who is the starting QB for the Giants week 1, next year?

I keep reading that Eli is done with the Giants....

1. He has two years left on his contract.
2. He has a no trade clause
3. There is not a viable replacement for him right now
4. Even if you draft one, why wouldn't you let him sit and learn behind one of the most professional workers in the league?
5. The offense, as currently constructed and coached, is not going to allow any QB to be successful.
6. The new coach has a bunch of reasons to keep Manning around. The league is built with parity so teams can turn things around quickly. There actually IS talent on this roster. A couple of thrifty offensive line signings by the new GM, and a new offensive philosophy, the new coach might be able to get something together and having a veteran QB to manage it is an asset.
7. The new coach could also hedge his bets by keeping Manning around while grooming his replacement, and if things go bad early, he can sit Manning (like Warner), and go with the rookie. Which would buy him some time because hey, it's a rookie QB that has to go through growing pains.

There is pretty much ZERO logical reasoning that says Eli Manning is done as a Giant.

Wishful thinking by some, perhaps, but not reality.


I happen to agree that Eli is the starter 2018 Week 1, but there’s an equally logical possibility that y
Continued  
bigbluehoya : 11/10/2017 9:45 am : link
...that you are ignoring.

If a new GM and coach come in, and the decision is that the roster is a complete tear-down project, they may choose to cut Eli in the offseason simply to take the entire dead cap in 2018 and be done with it.

Again, not saying it’s likely. It does make some business sense though, depending on the direction being taken.
If they were to cut him....  
Britt in VA : 11/10/2017 9:49 am : link
Which option looks better from an overall business standpoint?

Quote:
the Giants could cut him outright and save $9.8 million against next year's cap (though they'd also have to eat a $12.4 million dead-money charge). If they keep him for 2018, they could cut him after that season and save $17 million against their 2019 cap (with a dead-money charge of $6.2 million).


Keep in mind, cutting him next year means the rookie QB or Webb is the day 1 starter.

Link - ( New Window )
I hope Eli proves me wrong  
EddieNYG : 11/10/2017 9:53 am : link
But my gut reaction to his performance on Sunday was "he is done". I'm not gonna apologize for feeling that way, nor am I looking to get rid of him.

As of right now, he is the starting QB in 2018 and 2019. He's under contract for those years.

Cutting a 2-time SB MVP QB would not sit well with me or other fans.

I could take trading him, but cutting him is wrong IMO.
RE: If they were to cut him....  
bigbluehoya : 11/10/2017 9:59 am : link
In comment 13684669 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Which option looks better from an overall business standpoint?



Quote:


the Giants could cut him outright and save $9.8 million against next year's cap (though they'd also have to eat a $12.4 million dead-money charge). If they keep him for 2018, they could cut him after that season and save $17 million against their 2019 cap (with a dead-money charge of $6.2 million).

Keep in mind, cutting him next year means the rookie QB or Webb is the day 1 starter. Link - ( New Window )


You’d have to ask whoever the GM is. If next year is viewed as a wash, having a completely clean slate for 2019 could easily be viewed as the better of those two alternatives.
I personally think it would be a foolish business decision....  
Britt in VA : 11/10/2017 10:01 am : link
to consider next season a wash before the team ever took the field....

But you are right, it is the next GM's decision to make.
I'd say there is a better chance Eli is the QB  
Keith : 11/10/2017 10:15 am : link
of the Giants next year than not.

1. I think he's done winning in NY. I don't think we will be able to build a team Eli can win on in NY.

2. I think the Giants owe it to Eli to put him in a better situation. Explore a trade that Eli agrees with or cut him and let him go wherever he wants.
At the downward pitch this team is heading, tough to imagine  
Jimmy Googs : 11/10/2017 4:43 pm : link
same folks at the top leading the charge which means less likely Eli is at the helm at QB.

And pointedly, I don't want him to be and I have been an Eli supporter thru the years.

The team has to start over at the base before this will get better. And even if that means some other veteran backup type QB is starting day one before we put in Webb or a new franchise drafted QB than so be it.

If Eli is on the team it will slow down this rebuilding...
ELI's turnovers  
jmalls23 : 11/14/2017 11:58 am : link
Eli can certainly still make most of the throws but come on.... he loses the ball when hit with such consistency and has been picked in the most crucial spots for a very long time. He changes the momentum against us way too much. happened before all of our WR's went down
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