Would you agree that Eli has had pretty much no weapons on offense to throw to outside of Evan Engram?
Let's look at Evan Engram in relation to the rest of the TE's in the NFL:
He's 5th in receptions with 40
He's 8th in yards with 443
He's 2nd in the league in TD's with 5
I read this morning that Evan Engram is the first rookie TE since the merger in 1970 to reach 400 yards and 5 TD's through 8 games.
So my question is this: Is Eli in decline except when he's throwing to Engram?
Is that anything new, though?
100% in agreement! Eli is not a WCO QB. Dinking and dunking isn't him. McAdoo and Eli aren't a good fit.
Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...
Been going on for 2 seasons now with respect to long balls and patience in pocket, eyes dropping. Always had the inaccuracy issue and throwing behind guys but now it's more...
Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...
Eli has also been missing all of his starting receivers most of the year, as well. Chemistry is important.
Come on...
On the other, he goes down with little or sometimes no contact. The most important stats for a QB, scoring and yrds/catch are horrendous and he turns the ball over way too much.
He's not 2011 Eli but he's not quite Bledsoe yet either. I'd like to see him in a better system with some talent around him but I think that ship has sailed. He's too old to start a rebuild around and surrounding him with adequate talent might take years.
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deep throws all year. He can still sling it, but he deep throws have been awfully inaccurate going on two years, even when there is time and the receivers are very open.
Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...
Eli has also been missing all of his starting receivers most of the year, as well. Chemistry is important.
He has missed a wide open Shepard and others. He has missed Engram. I don't buy the chemistry except on read plays. A guy running open down the middle or a throw to the pillion (King last week) should not be badly missed.
The trend in the league is to play the young QB's the old vet stuff is not really working aside from Drew Brees and Brady.
The other teams are making the transition. Its hard to let go of Eli because he has never been hurt.
We've got at least two division rivals who are set at QB for the next decade, and we have a HOF QB who's in self-preservation mode.
When the chips were stacked against Eli (no o-line and no receivers), he didn't exactly inspire the team. Maybe no one could in those circumstances...
...but, then again, it would have required a QB who could extend plays with his legs. Eli, in stark contrast, is looking for a soft spot on the field to plant his carcass.
So, what do we have in Eli? A guy that needs just about everything perfect in front of him in order to succeed. And a guy who looks very, very old in comparison with the young studs in Philly and Dallas.
Team needs to move on from Eli. That process will begin for real when the Giants select a QB in the Top 3 picks of 2018 Draft.
Eli looked good yesterday aside from the fumble. Crisp passes, good accuracy for the most part. Again, nothing was eye-pooping but that's ok. He was good enough to win on another day with a better defense and had Pugh stayed in the game. Again what is the big news here?
You seem to want to constantly argue against people who offer any criticism of his game, or suggest there is value in seeing what Webb can do, or (gasp) suggest that Eli may not be the QB past next year.
For all of Eli's strengths, he is not athletic, not particularly accurate, and doesn't throw the long ball particularly well anymore. And while he is smart, he is also good for 1 or 2 boneheaded plays/throws per game, it seems.
That isn't b/c he WR's got hurt in Game 6 (or 5, whatever it was)... this has been the case for a while now... so don't blame it on injuries.
all that said, give Eli a line and some weapons and he will be fine. Beyond that, I don't get your incessant chirping about him. you must have other thoughts that occupy your head, no?
He cant make those short passes accurately. He throws them high. He can throw downfield a lot better so that's what he should do.
In fact, I'd assume that's exactly what we're seeing.
Circumstances have not been on #10's side this year - but let's not act like he's done himself a ton of favors, either. He hasn't played well and he didn't play well last year, either.
It's possible that he's just nearing the end here.
Not everyone is Tom Brady.
That said, I think Eli will play out his contract with the Giants, and I also think that with the right moves this offseason, the Giants (and Eli) will win again.
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In comment 13689618 section125 said:
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deep throws all year. He can still sling it, but he deep throws have been awfully inaccurate going on two years, even when there is time and the receivers are very open.
Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...
Eli has also been missing all of his starting receivers most of the year, as well. Chemistry is important.
He has missed a wide open Shepard and others. He has missed Engram. I don't buy the chemistry except on read plays. A guy running open down the middle or a throw to the pillion (King last week) should not be badly missed.
It's a bad offense. When Kizer is allowed to throw the ball down the field and Manning is not, there is a problem with the offense.
He made some good throws yesterday, and that's going to happen because he's an NFL QB. Favre could probably go out there and make a couple of great throws in a game.
However, he also made a number of bad throws - the hospital ball to King being one.
His deep ball, which was once his strength has been inaccurate even when he has time.
Both can be true that Eli's skills are in decline, and he lacks talent around him at the moment.
In fact, I'd assume that's exactly what we're seeing.
Circumstances have not been on #10's side this year - but let's not act like he's done himself a ton of favors, either. He hasn't played well and he didn't play well last year, either.
It's possible that he's just nearing the end here.
Not everyone is Tom Brady.
Yeah, I think Eli can still be successful if the offense is well-built. I don't know if he's going to be able to elevate offenses the way he has in the past (2009-2011, etc., even as recent as 14/15). Maybe he can, but if the opportunity presents itself to draft an elite QB, I think you take it.
If Eli doesn't retire as a Giant because of that young QB pushing for time, I'd be happy to see him go elsewhere and succeed.
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In comment 13689628 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13689618 section125 said:
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deep throws all year. He can still sling it, but he deep throws have been awfully inaccurate going on two years, even when there is time and the receivers are very open.
Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...
Eli has also been missing all of his starting receivers most of the year, as well. Chemistry is important.
He has missed a wide open Shepard and others. He has missed Engram. I don't buy the chemistry except on read plays. A guy running open down the middle or a throw to the pillion (King last week) should not be badly missed.
You need to watch other qb's- they all miss. As for the deep throws, we simply do not throw down the field. Longest pass play yesterday was 26 yards on Shepard's catch and run. No one else caught a pass in excess of 15 yards. We averaged less than 10 yards a catch. The Browns yesterday had pass plays of 35, 38, 18 and 19.
It's a bad offense. When Kizer is allowed to throw the ball down the field and Manning is not, there is a problem with the offense.
We've taken deep shots all year. You're only looking at the ones that are caught, but did you tally up the deep passes that were incomplete?
That said, I think Eli will play out his contract with the Giants, and I also think that with the right moves this offseason, the Giants (and Eli) will win again.
I think there's like 2 people on this site who think he's been a problem since 2009. C'mon, the vast, overwhelming consensus on this site is that Reese has not drafted well at all and has been unable to assemble a team (esp O line) around him. Mac doesn't help and the injuries are just the cherry on top this year. That combined with him declining and now having poor pocket presence is what has led to this shitshow
It's pretty obviously the case. The team around him sucks, but he's still not making plays that are there.
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You need to watch other qb's- they all miss. As for the deep throws, we simply do not throw down the field. Longest pass play yesterday was 26 yards on Shepard's catch and run. No one else caught a pass in excess of 15 yards. We averaged less than 10 yards a catch. The Browns yesterday had pass plays of 35, 38, 18 and 19.
It's a bad offense. When Kizer is allowed to throw the ball down the field and Manning is not, there is a problem with the offense.
Of course other QBs miss. Eli is still throwing down field and he missing and that is why you can't remember he is throwing down field. Every QB misses some deep throws, and Eli was always reliable on deep passes, but now he is missing. That throw to Shepard last week was brutally bad - it wasn't even close. I cannot remember the game earlier where he missed two or three open guys deep. Even if underthrown, they would have set up the offense.
Lots if folks are in so much denial that they propose that he has a few years in him, YEARS. There is obviously a lot of delusion on this topic.
2) He looks old, plays old, and can't hold onto the damn ball. He is good for at least one turnover a game and he had many games where he had more than one. Defenses are licking their chops playing against Eli. He is no threat to them any longer. His long ball isn't that great anymore and he rarely ever hits a receiver in stride. The receivers almost always have to make contortions or leap tall buildings to catch his damn passes.
He had his glory...now its time to face reality. He can't carry the team anymore and frankly he never seemed like the LEADER type. He's a passive guy that this team doesn't need. In fact, they don't need any passive guys on this team. They need young, hungry, aggressive, fearless players. He plays like a $20 mil QB playing poorly...he knows he gets paid either way and knows they won't bench him. Its pretty obvious.
You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.
You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.
So you think at age 37, his skills are not in decline?
You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.
If you can't see any decline in ability here - I don't know what to tell you.
It's there.
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then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.
You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.
So you think at age 37, his skills are not in decline?
I think it is overstated.
He is capable of making all the throws still, if given the time (which he has been getting more of later in the season). Just wish he had the weapons and a healthy Pugh to settle down the OL even more.
He is capable of making all the throws still, if given the time (which he has been getting more of later in the season). Just wish he had the weapons and a healthy Pugh to settle down the OL even more.
That's all I've been saying.
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Believe it or not, it can actually be true that Eli is declining and the decline is being magnified by the lack of weapons on the offensive side of the ball right now.
In fact, I'd assume that's exactly what we're seeing.
Circumstances have not been on #10's side this year - but let's not act like he's done himself a ton of favors, either. He hasn't played well and he didn't play well last year, either.
It's possible that he's just nearing the end here.
Not everyone is Tom Brady.
Yeah, I think Eli can still be successful if the offense is well-built. I don't know if he's going to be able to elevate offenses the way he has in the past (2009-2011, etc., even as recent as 14/15). Maybe he can, but if the opportunity presents itself to draft an elite QB, I think you take it.
If Eli doesn't retire as a Giant because of that young QB pushing for time, I'd be happy to see him go elsewhere and succeed.
I agree - I don't think he's shot, but I think for an offense to be good with Eli now, it has to be really built to his strengths. He'd need a strong running game, good pass pro, and good weapons.
This isn't a player who is going to elevate the guys around him at this stage.
And it's nothing against Eli. Some fans seem to take this personally or feel like it's a slight.
Of course, there are people who have been trying to bury the guy for years or blame EVERYTHING on him - which also isn't fair.
But if people still can't admit that he's declining at this point, I'm not sure what to tell them. That part is clear even if this is not all his fault.
Lots if folks are in so much denial that they propose that he has a few years in him, YEARS. There is obviously a lot of delusion on this topic.
It's an obsession at this point.
2) he has played fine in recent weeks in the grand scheme--- far from the biggest issue.
3) garbage time stats are helping him out so referencing the numbers ... when the offense clearly struggles to put up points... its kind of a reach
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Believe it or not, it can actually be true that Eli is declining and the decline is being magnified by the lack of weapons on the offensive side of the ball right now.
It's pretty obviously the case. The team around him sucks, but he's still not making plays that are there.
As an Eli fanboy....yes they are in decline.
He compounds his fails with his passes to the turf, his easy fumbling, his forcing plays.
His buttparking are a form of business decisions for survival thanks to lack of confidence in his OL since the SF playoff game in '11. By 2014 the improvement on a scale of 10 was 3; in 2017 the improvement over'12 is -2.
Thank you JR.
Declining enough to retire? No.
A 2 year window? Likely, and a 3 year max.
1 year with a sufficient OL and the weapons back...and a D that won't tank should be worth 5- 6 wins and a top 12-15 pick.
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In comment 13689746 HomerJones45 said:
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then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.
You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.
So you think at age 37, his skills are not in decline?
I think it is overstated.
You realize his skills are going to decline more next year, and more the year after? He could fall of the cliff next year. It's always better to move on from a player a year early rather than a year too late.
Engram is a tough cover. He gets open. On any team he's putting up stats.
Have his skills declined, sure just like Big Ben and Rivers.
Is he still a top 1/3 QB, yes he is.
Is he the real problem here, no he's not.
One way to help him out might be to consider Gary Kubiak as the offensive coordinator in the event that the coaching staff is overhauled. Kubiak employs the stretch handoffs and play action off that as well as anyone, allowing for deeper drops and more downfield passing (which better fits Eli's strengths than McAdoo does). Kubiak also has experience with older, immobile quarterbacks named Manning.
I think a coaching staff of Mike Smith as head coach and Gary Kubiak as OC could help, and is within the realm of the realistic.
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then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.
You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.
So you think at age 37, his skills are not in decline?
One way to help him out might be to consider Gary Kubiak as the offensive coordinator in the event that the coaching staff is overhauled. Kubiak employs the stretch handoffs and play action off that as well as anyone, allowing for deeper drops and more downfield passing (which better fits Eli's strengths than McAdoo does). Kubiak also has experience with older, immobile quarterbacks named Manning.
I think a coaching staff of Mike Smith as head coach and Gary Kubiak as OC could help, and is within the realm of the realistic.
I think your first sentence is what a lot of people are missing. He might not look like he's totally shot now, but that could be the case day one next season. It's a risky game when your QB starts to decline.
I see a QB who can still make all of the throws. I see a QB who hasn’t missed any games and hasn’t sustained any injuries. Statistically he’s been solid. We haven’t even seen one of those 3-4 pick games (knock on wood) that he would have in his prime years. Not that it matters at this point.
Personally I think he could play at a SB winning level for the next 4 seasons unless he sustains a fluke injury. Whether the organization can build a SB caliber staff and team around him is a different story.
If you feel the same, then it doesn’t make sense to blow it up and draft a QB. If you don’t feel the same about Eli, and there’s been plenty of anti-Eli people out there for years, then obviously you want to go in another direction. It’s as simple as that.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
That said, I think Eli will play out his contract with the Giants, and I also think that with the right moves this offseason, the Giants (and Eli) will win again.
No one (or very few) has said that he's the problem with the team. But to deny that he's in decline and that his physical decline is a problem with this team is just ignoring reality.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
Arguing semantics. Is he the QB of ‘11? No. Can he still play at a level capable of winning a championship? Definitely.
If it's what we saw from Peyton Manning in Denver a couple years ago, that bar is pretty low - so technically, yes. That would be true.
Sure, if you gave Eli a strong ground game, good pass protecting OL and a few weapons, I think he'd do just fine.
Years ago, Eli could have done more with less. But that's not the case now. So, for that reason, I fail to see how anyone could really argue that he isn't or hasn't declined.
He can still play - but he's not going to carry this offense or win us many games on his own shoulders.
1. Being Anti-Eli
2. Blaming Eli for ALL of the teams problems
3. Suggesting that other QBs are perfect
Why do these narratives always get thrown out there? Why can’t it be that people are incredibly appreciative of Eli and what he has done for this team and he will always be a legend, while simultaneously acknowledging that his best days may be behind him? Thats not being anti Eli, blaming him for all of the problems or suggesting that other QBs don’t miss some throws.
I brought this up in another thread and promptly got called anti Eli, lol. Typical response, though and cements my point.
He is not and has not been the problem with why this team is 1-8. If the D made stops in the 3 games they led in the 4th quarter they'd be 4-5 and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
I see a QB who can still make all of the throws. I see a QB who hasn’t missed any games and hasn’t sustained any injuries. Statistically he’s been solid. We haven’t even seen one of those 3-4 pick games (knock on wood) that he would have in his prime years. Not that it matters at this point.
Personally I think he could play at a SB winning level for the next 4 seasons unless he sustains a fluke injury. Whether the organization can build a SB caliber staff and team around him is a different story.
If you feel the same, then it doesn’t make sense to blow it up and draft a QB. If you don’t feel the same about Eli, and there’s been plenty of anti-Eli people out there for years, then obviously you want to go in another direction. It’s as simple as that.
All the throws? Eli hasn’t thrown 10+ yards to the field side consistently in a couple of years
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
So, I don't think there is any need to panic and believe Eli will finish out his contract here and play just fine. I do think it is necessary to spend a #1 pick on a qb in 2018 (which makes the Webb pick unfathomable: they don't need a developmental prospect, they need a successor. That #3 could have been spent elsewhere.)
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If you don' think Eli is in any sort of decline, it means you still believe he is in the prime of his career.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
You are conflating to separate questions: Have his skills declined? and Is it time to prepare for the future? I think the answer to the first question is no and the answer to the second question is yes. I can see Manning have a Favre like end to his career: Favre threw for 10000 yards and 66 td's AFTER leaving GB at age 38. Right now, Brees and Brady are both older than Eli and no one is talking about declining skills.
So, I don't think there is any need to panic and believe Eli will finish out his contract here and play just fine. I do think it is necessary to spend a #1 pick on a qb in 2018 (which makes the Webb pick unfathomable: they don't need a developmental prospect, they need a successor. That #3 could have been spent elsewhere.)
I completely disagree that his skills have not declined at all. He's 36 years old. It would almost be hard to believe if they hadn't.
I can also assure you that a 2009-esque Favre season in Minnesota is not in the cards for Eli.
Eli has had a heck of a career - but he's not Brett Favre.
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If you don' think Eli is in any sort of decline, it means you still believe he is in the prime of his career.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
You are conflating to separate questions: Have his skills declined? and Is it time to prepare for the future? I think the answer to the first question is no and the answer to the second question is yes. I can see Manning have a Favre like end to his career: Favre threw for 10000 yards and 66 td's AFTER leaving GB at age 38. Right now, Brees and Brady are both older than Eli and no one is talking about declining skills.
So, I don't think there is any need to panic and believe Eli will finish out his contract here and play just fine. I do think it is necessary to spend a #1 pick on a qb in 2018 (which makes the Webb pick unfathomable: they don't need a developmental prospect, they need a successor. That #3 could have been spent elsewhere.)
The Webb pick was unfathomable? Why? How do you know that he’s not any good? How do you know he can’t be the successor? They were going to take a QB at some point and I’m sure they weren’t planning on having a top 3 pick this year when they made the Webb pick.
It’s funny, they take a guy that they think can be Eli’s successor in a couple of years and they still get killed for wasting a pick because now they will have a chance to land a top 3 pick.
If it's what we saw from Peyton Manning in Denver a couple years ago, that bar is pretty low - so technically, yes. That would be true.
Sure, if you gave Eli a strong ground game, good pass protecting OL and a few weapons, I think he'd do just fine.
Years ago, Eli could have done more with less. But that's not the case now. So, for that reason, I fail to see how anyone could really argue that he isn't or hasn't declined.
He can still play - but he's not going to carry this offense or win us many games on his own shoulders.
The thing is this wouldn’t even be a conversation if the Giants were looking at picking in the 20’s in the ‘18 draft. But because the Giants are looking at a top 5 pick, they HAVE to draft Eli’s successor. I disagree with that approach. That approach is the reason why the Colts are in the situation they’re currently in.
The Peyton point is ridiculous. Eli obviously looks better than Peyton in Denver and he doesn’t need an all-world defense to win games. In GB last year I saw a QB more than capable of making a playoff run. Not his fault the receivers didn’t show up.
Like I said earlier, it all comes down to what you think about Eli. If you think he’s washed, then you draft a QB, hope he’s not a bust, and hope the FO can build a new OL before the new QB has to play. If you think he can still play, you use the ‘18 draft as an opportunity to correct the bad decisions of the Reese administration.
2. Have his skills eroded to the point that he cannot help his team win? Not at all.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
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Well, what really is a "level capable of winning a championship" ?
If it's what we saw from Peyton Manning in Denver a couple years ago, that bar is pretty low - so technically, yes. That would be true.
Sure, if you gave Eli a strong ground game, good pass protecting OL and a few weapons, I think he'd do just fine.
Years ago, Eli could have done more with less. But that's not the case now. So, for that reason, I fail to see how anyone could really argue that he isn't or hasn't declined.
He can still play - but he's not going to carry this offense or win us many games on his own shoulders.
The thing is this wouldn’t even be a conversation if the Giants were looking at picking in the 20’s in the ‘18 draft. But because the Giants are looking at a top 5 pick, they HAVE to draft Eli’s successor. I disagree with that approach. That approach is the reason why the Colts are in the situation they’re currently in.
The Peyton point is ridiculous. Eli obviously looks better than Peyton in Denver and he doesn’t need an all-world defense to win games. In GB last year I saw a QB more than capable of making a playoff run. Not his fault the receivers didn’t show up.
Like I said earlier, it all comes down to what you think about Eli. If you think he’s washed, then you draft a QB, hope he’s not a bust, and hope the FO can build a new OL before the new QB has to play. If you think he can still play, you use the ‘18 draft as an opportunity to correct the bad decisions of the Reese administration.
The point wasn't to compare him to Peyton side by side - the point was that "a QB you can win with" can cover an extremely wide-range of possibilities.
Peyton was terrible at the end - but Denver still won a Super Bowl with him. So, if you say you can still win with a particular QB, it doesn't really say much about the QB at all.
Bottom line is that to win with Eli now you need to provide him with much more than he would have needed ~5 years ago.
The Giants should draft the player they feel will have the greatest net value to the team regardless of how they view Eli.
Even if you think Eli hasn't diminished that much, it's still unrealistic to expect much more out of him so if there's a QB they really like, they should draft him. Whether they want him to be the starter ASAP or not.
The longer we try to win with Eli, the more expensive it's going to get to put that team around him because the longer we try to do this, the better it's going to need to be.
I don't.
What did he have around him in 2015 besides Beckham?
He was markedly better that year than he was last year or this year. And that was only two years ago.
You don't want to believe Eli is declining, so you choose not to.
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I believe you would have seen the same thing five years ago.
I don't.
What did he have around him in 2015 besides Beckham?
He was markedly better that year than he was last year or this year. And that was only two years ago.
Playbook changed, offense went in the tank. That's what was obvious, to me.
You don't want to believe Eli is declining, so you choose not to.
I don't think so, I think I'm seeing things very clearly, and called many of them early last season. I was one of the few on the board that did, that early.
If the move is to go forward with him, then the team needs to stop fucking around regarding protection. If the Giants have a time machine they should hire Joe Gibbs and Joe Bugel to run the offense.
Max protections, play action, move the pocket.
It should be fairly easy to see if it's so obvious. Is he one hopping balls to receivers? Deep ball not getting there? What exactly is so obviously in decline?
If the move is to go forward with him, then the team needs to stop fucking around regarding protection. If the Giants have a time machine they should hire Joe Gibbs and Joe Bugel to run the offense.
Max protections, play action, move the pocket.
Agreed.
And I'm not against drafting his successor this year in the first round, either.
You can do both, build the team to win now and groom his replacement at the same time. I don't understand why it has to be either or.
We've had that a few times THIS season. We still haven't been able to eclipse 30 points offensively in about 20 consecutive tries now and still lost every game aside from the game we played in Denver where Eli barely even completed 10 passes.
That win has become even less impressive now after knowing that Denver hasn't won since and have been terrible.
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you put an average line in front of Eli this offseason with any semblance of a run game, you will see him perform next season.
We've had that a few times THIS season. We still haven't been able to eclipse 30 points offensively in about 20 consecutive tries now and still lost every game aside from the game we played in Denver where Eli barely even completed 10 passes.
That win has become even less impressive now after knowing that Denver hasn't won since and have been terrible.
So Eli went off a cliff after 2015, from having two of his best seasons, because of this decline? That's what you're saying?
And the fact that we haven't scored 30 points is also because of this?
I'm going to vehemently disagree. That is McAdoo's offense, not Eli Manning.
You're making it sound like he's going to have to get to a point where he's just spiking 3 out of every 5 throws into the ground until you believe he's actually declining.
His pocket awareness has declined, he's missed several throws that he should be capable of making, he's still turning the ball over far too often.
If a QB needs absolutely ideal circumstances to succeed, then I think you have to wonder how good that QB still is.
The change in playstyle from Coughlin to McAdoo was painfully obvious, and now should be crystal clear.
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In comment 13690327 Britt in VA said:
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you put an average line in front of Eli this offseason with any semblance of a run game, you will see him perform next season.
We've had that a few times THIS season. We still haven't been able to eclipse 30 points offensively in about 20 consecutive tries now and still lost every game aside from the game we played in Denver where Eli barely even completed 10 passes.
That win has become even less impressive now after knowing that Denver hasn't won since and have been terrible.
So Eli went off a cliff after 2015, from having two of his best seasons, because of this decline? That's what you're saying?
And the fact that we haven't scored 30 points is also because of this?
I'm going to vehemently disagree. That is McAdoo's offense, not Eli Manning.
Look at the season Brett Favre had in 2009 and look how bad he was the very next year.
When players get this old, they can hit a wall fast. The declines aren't always extremely gradual and long-lasting.
You're making it sound like he's going to have to get to a point where he's just spiking 3 out of every 5 throws into the ground until you believe he's actually declining.
His pocket awareness has declined, he's missed several throws that he should be capable of making, he's still turning the ball over far too often.
If a QB needs absolutely ideal circumstances to succeed, then I think you have to wonder how good that QB still is.
They don't need to be ideal, just decent. Getting hit as your throwing in under 2 seconds is sub standard conditions.
Give him a line and a running game he's going to perform!! Way to go out on a limb
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They say that arm strength is actually one of the LAST things you'll see go with a QB.
You're making it sound like he's going to have to get to a point where he's just spiking 3 out of every 5 throws into the ground until you believe he's actually declining.
His pocket awareness has declined, he's missed several throws that he should be capable of making, he's still turning the ball over far too often.
If a QB needs absolutely ideal circumstances to succeed, then I think you have to wonder how good that QB still is.
They don't need to be ideal, just decent. Getting hit as your throwing in under 2 seconds is sub standard conditions.
That's not what's happening every time he throws the ball. It's an over-exaggeration.
It seems like you don't want to lay a single shred of blame at Eli's feet for anything. It's all everyone else. The coach, the line, the other players.
Roethlisberger is having a crappy year too. These guys aren't young anymore. The vast majority of QB's don't last this long.
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In comment 13690343 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13690327 Britt in VA said:
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you put an average line in front of Eli this offseason with any semblance of a run game, you will see him perform next season.
We've had that a few times THIS season. We still haven't been able to eclipse 30 points offensively in about 20 consecutive tries now and still lost every game aside from the game we played in Denver where Eli barely even completed 10 passes.
That win has become even less impressive now after knowing that Denver hasn't won since and have been terrible.
So Eli went off a cliff after 2015, from having two of his best seasons, because of this decline? That's what you're saying?
And the fact that we haven't scored 30 points is also because of this?
I'm going to vehemently disagree. That is McAdoo's offense, not Eli Manning.
Look at the season Brett Favre had in 2009 and look how bad he was the very next year.
When players get this old, they can hit a wall fast. The declines aren't always extremely gradual and long-lasting.
Favre was 41! Eli is 36. And secondly, in one of Favre's final games before getting KO'd, he threw for a career high 446 yards and brought the Vikings back from 14 down to win in overtime against the Cardinals.
Eli is not Favre, but Favre's career was ultimately due to injury, then concussion, not from "hitting a wall".
for me, this is about starting new across the board. it is my sincere hope as a Giants fan that we wipe the slate clean this off season and build a new organization... GM, HC, coordinators, several key players... and with that I want to turn the page on Eli by 2018/19 at least.
He has had some amazing moments and seasons for sure but he is not the guy I want going forward for the next several years. I want a big, mobile QB who can extend a play with his feet and is an 11th athlete on the field.
When i think of Eli, I think "smart" and "poised"... those have been his big strengths. and that has made up for his lack of accuracy and athleticism. But he is less poised today than he was several years ago... justified or not, that is a big detriment to his game.
I just don't want us making decision for the next decade around a 36/37 year old statue of QB who is skittish in the pocket and isn't accurate. So I am not trying to run him out of town, but I want is to take advantage of our very high draft pick and new management/coaching staff to get a team together that has a coordinated identity and is built for the long haul.
Eli will never decline. All he's missing is an elite OL... and a great ground game.. and a better defense on the other side of the ball... and more skill players.
Once he has all of that, he'll prove everyone wrong!
Eli will never decline. All he's missing is an elite OL... and a great ground game.. and a better defense on the other side of the ball... and more skill players.
Once he has all of that, he'll prove everyone wrong!
I didn't say any of that. You're overstating. It's unnecessary.
Regardless, he was 41. Eli is 36.
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Okay, Britt...
Eli will never decline. All he's missing is an elite OL... and a great ground game.. and a better defense on the other side of the ball... and more skill players.
Once he has all of that, he'll prove everyone wrong!
I didn't say any of that. You're overstating. It's unnecessary.
Because you're completely unwilling to acknowledge that Eli is responsible for anything detrimental to the current state of the football team.
You want to blame every single factor besides him.
Drew Brees has had less average time to throw than Eli has and is having a very strong season.
Not sure why it's so hard to admit that it's likely Eli has declined a bit but is also being hurt by circumstances. Like I said in my first response - it can be, and likely IS both.
finding Shepard without having a burner like OBJ they still
have problems maintaining drives . There never seems to be
any kind of an offensive strategy you just hope that the mistakes are limited O-linemen taking turns whiffing Eli
took some heavy shots making completions .
We never get the RB's out into space in the passing game .
Having Bobby Hart in there is Russian roulette .
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
If you enjoy seeing those kind of plays then more power to you. But I'm sick of them. The team sucks enough without having it's 2 time Super Bowl MVP veteran QB making plays like that, it seems, at least once a game. AND he missed a few throws as well. Eli may not be the biggest problem with this team... not by a long shot... but he hasn't exactly been a big part of any solution either. Not with plays like that...
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
How many times do I have to say that I want them to draft his replacement in the first round? Is that not planning for life beyond?
As far as the decline aspect, he's healthy and never missed a game. I don't see the decline that so many state as an obvious thing to see. I find it impossible to evaluate what Eli is or isn't under these conditions. I'm frankly surprised that so many are convinced that he's in obvious decline.
I wouldn't want to evaluate what Webb is or isn't in these conditions, either.
The Giants could literally play YA Tittles corpse at QB and they’d only be one game worse off. Actually the way they ran it and defended in Denver, Tittle’s corpse may have won that game. He’s not the biggest issue but he’s not the solution and he’s most certainly in decline as is anyone when they’re pushing 37. Simple biology. Even if you can name examples of guys who succeeded at that age, and even if their stats didn’t show any decline, that doesn’t mean they were as good as they were in their physical prime. Better supporting casts or rules changes can help guys as they age too. Brett Favre statistically was great at 40 but he wasn’t 1996 Brett Favre. Peyton was great until his last year but that doesn’t mean he was the same guy he was in Indy even if the stats may have misled you. Same thing with guys like Brady and Brees today.
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Dan Marino posted a 23 TD/15 INT season in 1998 at 37. He was 7th in the league in pass yards, the Dolphins finished 10-6.
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
How many times do I have to say that I want them to draft his replacement in the first round? Is that not planning for life beyond?
As far as the decline aspect, he's healthy and never missed a game. I don't see the decline that so many state as an obvious thing to see. I find it impossible to evaluate what Eli is or isn't under these conditions. I'm frankly surprised that so many are convinced that he's in obvious decline.
I wouldn't want to evaluate what Webb is or isn't in these conditions, either.
Decline doesn’t have to involve injuries. If you can’t tell his deep ball isn’t the same, then you’re not watching close enough. Watch when he throws a ball field side, the WR is often standing waiting too long allowing minimal YAC.
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
Instead of just cutting and pasting stats, go look at the injuries Marino sustained throughout his career and rethink this post.
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In comment 13690380 arcarsenal said:
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Okay, Britt...
Eli will never decline. All he's missing is an elite OL... and a great ground game.. and a better defense on the other side of the ball... and more skill players.
Once he has all of that, he'll prove everyone wrong!
I didn't say any of that. You're overstating. It's unnecessary.
Because you're completely unwilling to acknowledge that Eli is responsible for anything detrimental to the current state of the football team.
You want to blame every single factor besides him.
Drew Brees has had less average time to throw than Eli has and is having a very strong season.
Not sure why it's so hard to admit that it's likely Eli has declined a bit but is also being hurt by circumstances. Like I said in my first response - it can be, and likely IS both.
Drew Brees now has:
1) Running game
2) Defense.
That helps a great deal, and why they have rattled off seven straight.
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Dan Marino posted a 23 TD/15 INT season in 1998 at 37. He was 7th in the league in pass yards, the Dolphins finished 10-6.
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
Instead of just cutting and pasting stats, go look at the injuries Marino sustained throughout his career and rethink this post.
Additionally, Jimmy Johnson wanted to make Marino a game manager and have a run-first offense.
Not saying Marino was still a top flight QB, but it didn't fit the QB's style.
Sound familiar?
The Giants are 25th in yards with 808, and 31st in TD's with 2. One of which was Eli's 14 yard TD run.
The Giants are 25th in yards with 808, and 31st in TD's with 2. One of which was Eli's 14 yard TD run.
Go check out their "POINTS ALLOWED" this season........you'd be surprised.
Winning is usually a team effort.
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They also have 14 rushing TD's, which is good for 1st in the league.
The Giants are 25th in yards with 808, and 31st in TD's with 2. One of which was Eli's 14 yard TD run.
Go check out their "POINTS ALLOWED" this season........you'd be surprised.
Winning is usually a team effort.
BTW, stats aren't everything, but Brees' stats look very comparable to Eli's.
Has Brees played better, surely he has.
The team around him, entire team, is better.
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In comment 13690410 arcarsenal said:
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Dan Marino posted a 23 TD/15 INT season in 1998 at 37. He was 7th in the league in pass yards, the Dolphins finished 10-6.
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
How many times do I have to say that I want them to draft his replacement in the first round? Is that not planning for life beyond?
As far as the decline aspect, he's healthy and never missed a game. I don't see the decline that so many state as an obvious thing to see. I find it impossible to evaluate what Eli is or isn't under these conditions. I'm frankly surprised that so many are convinced that he's in obvious decline.
I wouldn't want to evaluate what Webb is or isn't in these conditions, either.
Decline doesn’t have to involve injuries. If you can’t tell his deep ball isn’t the same, then you’re not watching close enough. Watch when he throws a ball field side, the WR is often standing waiting too long allowing minimal YAC.
Lmao what are you standing on the sidelines with a stop watch...??
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In comment 13690424 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13690410 arcarsenal said:
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Dan Marino posted a 23 TD/15 INT season in 1998 at 37. He was 7th in the league in pass yards, the Dolphins finished 10-6.
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
How many times do I have to say that I want them to draft his replacement in the first round? Is that not planning for life beyond?
As far as the decline aspect, he's healthy and never missed a game. I don't see the decline that so many state as an obvious thing to see. I find it impossible to evaluate what Eli is or isn't under these conditions. I'm frankly surprised that so many are convinced that he's in obvious decline.
I wouldn't want to evaluate what Webb is or isn't in these conditions, either.
Decline doesn’t have to involve injuries. If you can’t tell his deep ball isn’t the same, then you’re not watching close enough. Watch when he throws a ball field side, the WR is often standing waiting too long allowing minimal YAC.
Lmao what are you standing on the sidelines with a stop watch...??
Watch the games and then compare it to other games
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Dan Marino posted a 23 TD/15 INT season in 1998 at 37. He was 7th in the league in pass yards, the Dolphins finished 10-6.
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
Instead of just cutting and pasting stats, go look at the injuries Marino sustained throughout his career and rethink this post.
Marino only missed a significant chunk of games in one of his seasons - the year he tore his achilles.
He had a hip issue later on if I remember right - his level of play before he missed games in his final season wasn't any better before it happened than it was afterwards.
Marino had offers from other teams following the 99 season - he could have continued playing should he have decided that, but he chose not to. Most likely because he knew he was finished.
Do you guys not think that Eli has played hurt through his career? Just because he has never missed a game doesn't mean he's never been hurt or that his body has taken a real toll over all these years.
None of these guys play forever.
Additionally, for everyone who wants to blame the offense. I guess you're forgetting what Eli's last season was like under Gilbride.
There's a reason why they wanted to shift this offense into a higher percentage passing offense. Eli was turning the ball over more than any other QB in the sport before they did. The entire point was to elongate his career.
But no one on the other side of this discussion is going to want to acknowledge that Eli has declined whatsoever until he has one of those seasons where it's undeniable and embarrassing. It seems like as long as he can throw a football 50 yards, no one will think he's changed at all.
Just know that season is probably not far away at this point. So the Giants would be wise to have their next guy waiting in the wings when it happens - whether it's Webb or whoever they target in April.
There's a reason why they wanted to shift this offense into a higher percentage passing offense. Eli was turning the ball over more than any other QB in the sport before they did. The entire point was to elongate his career.
But no one on the other side of this discussion is going to want to acknowledge that Eli has declined whatsoever until he has one of those seasons where it's undeniable and embarrassing. It seems like as long as he can throw a football 50 yards, no one will think he's changed at all.
Just know that season is probably not far away at this point. So the Giants would be wise to have their next guy waiting in the wings when it happens - whether it's Webb or whoever they target in April. [/quote]
This is 100% spot on
That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.
He's 37 years old. It's normal to decline. Brady is declining. To think Eli isn't capable of trending down at an age where quarterbacks usually do wind down is some homer talk.
He's 37 years old. It's normal to decline. Brady is declining. To think Eli isn't capable of trending down at an age where quarterbacks usually do wind down is some homer talk.
I think Eli's an average QB right now. I think he spent most of his career in the 6-12 range (and importantly, was largely consistently in that range outside of 2013 - and even). That's not that big of a decline.
Maybe he can get back to above-average play, but I don't think he can carry an offense like he did in 2009-2011, and even 14/15.
Seriously, what would your plan be? This team is not nearly in as good cap shape as the numbers appear. 3/5ths of the starting oline are free agents and Jerry needs to be replaced. The only linebacker under contract is Goodson and he is always hurt. The team desperately needs a pass rush and will have to replace likely cap casualties in DRC and Marshall.
Bitch and moan all you want about the Vernon and JPP contracts. They are unmovable this off-season. So you keep saying give Eli this and that and he can win. To be honest, they won't be able to give him those pieces for a couple years, when he will be completely toast.
They will have to go halfway on the oline and do what they can around Vernon, JPP, Jenkins and Collins. A young QB who can actually move could help an average oline.
And please don't suggest trading Odell for a plethora of picks just to keep Eli around. He is not going anywhere, and you will be happy when the next QB has a weapon like him to throw to, along with Engram.
If the team isn't going to be good for a couple years anyway, it is the perfect time to move on.
That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.
How embarrassing was this dumbass..?
I also think that the marriage with McAdoo has been a failure. It was always a strange union: McAdoo wants the ball thrown short and quickly; Eli's never been accurate or mechanically consistent enough to maximize the YAC potential of a West Coast style offense. If they're going to stick with Eli through 2018 and possibly beyond, the offense should be shifted radically to something based on running the ball and throwing the ball downfield off that. We already have two good tight ends on the roster, so that's a start.
McAdoo is cooked, we can all agree on that. If the next offense resembles his or is something that would traditionally be labeled as "West Coast", the Giants would probably be best served moving on from Eli in some form after this season.
What a colossal fuckup these last 5 years have been.
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And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?
That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.
How embarrassing was this dumbass..?
We haven’t won a playoff game in 6 years and only been once.
I don’t think anywhere here doesn’t appreciate Eli for the two Super Bowls, but we see the writing is on the wall and has been for two years.
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And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?
That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.
How embarrassing was this dumbass..?
Yes, Eli's two Super Bowl MVP's erase that bonehead play in yesterday's game.
The last appearance was when, six years ago? Keep living in the past, chief.
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that saying Eli is in decline is some kind of insult to the guy.
He's 37 years old. It's normal to decline. Brady is declining. To think Eli isn't capable of trending down at an age where quarterbacks usually do wind down is some homer talk.
I think Eli's an average QB right now. I think he spent most of his career in the 6-12 range (and importantly, was largely consistently in that range outside of 2013 - and even). That's not that big of a decline.
Maybe he can get back to above-average play, but I don't think he can carry an offense like he did in 2009-2011, and even 14/15.
I don't think you're wrong here. But as with everything, it's dependent on other factors. If you believe he can still be an above average QB, that's totally fine. But he needs help around him more than at any point in his career. Can this be fixed in time to make use of Eli while he's still effective? Are we going to land in the top 5 of the draft with a chance to possibly take a franchise QB prospect and pass because Eli might have 2 years left?
I am WAY closer to being an Eli homer than a detractor. I have always given him the benefit of the doubt, I have always leaned towards defending him rather than criticizing him.
I just can't sit here with a straight face while people try to claim that Eli hasn't declined at all. Come on. The guy is 36 years old. It's not a slight towards the guy - it's part of a natural career arc.
I also have said several times that I think he can still play QB in the NFL. The problem is that the longer the Giants try to win with Eli, the longer the laundry list of things they'll need in addition to Eli will also continue to lengthen.
I would be completely on board with trying to be a run-first offense that leaned more on play-action passing and defense - I just don't think the Giants can make that transformation quickly enough for it to work while Eli is still a decent QB.
And then you may be building a system that is less-ideal for the next guy if he's got a different skillset.
I think the Giants would be smart to start making plans for life after Eli sooner than later. A year too late would be far worse than a year too soon.
I'm as sentimental as anyone when it comes to Eli - but you have to remove that from the equation if you want to be truly objective here.
I think the bigger discussion is whether any of these QBs are worth the top 3-5 pick, because I think even people who don't think Eli's fallen off are willing to admit the time for an heir is nearing.
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In comment 13690895 Giants_ROK said:
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And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?
That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.
How embarrassing was this dumbass..?
Yes, Eli's two Super Bowl MVP's erase that bonehead play in yesterday's game.
The last appearance was when, six years ago? Keep living in the past, chief.
Go root for the Eagles...
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In comment 13690951 JCin332 said:
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In comment 13690895 Giants_ROK said:
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And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?
That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.
How embarrassing was this dumbass..?
Yes, Eli's two Super Bowl MVP's erase that bonehead play in yesterday's game.
The last appearance was when, six years ago? Keep living in the past, chief.
Go root for the Eagles...
You must be 14 years old
Some of you guys need to grow up.
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And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?
That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.
How embarrassing was this dumbass..?
I'm shocked he didn't fumble the Lombardi.
Some of you guys need to grow up.
Actually arc if you read those 2 dopes post the last several days you would understand my responses...
They are of the ilk of hysterical crybabies..
Here is one of ROK's posts as an example:
Giants_ROK : 11/11/2017 11:56 pm : link : reply
can't get gone fast enough.
As far as constructive maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously..?
I have been watching this team and going to games since the '70's and believe me the QB situation could be much worse and the odds of finding another QB like Manning are very remote...
He may be declining but I believe he still can win and is a top 10 QB...he is having as good a year as Brees and Ben but does not have their supporting casts...if he did I have no doubt the Giants would be in playoff contention...
The problem I have is how some of these so called "fans" deal with adversity...I would love to see how they deal with it in their own lives...
Tough to admit that the guy who delivered in some big spots isn't delivering anymore?
Yeah, yeah. Team sport and all that. How about the franchise player elevate the play of those around him?
He's not doing it.
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Photos of Eli from a decade ago aren't constructive responses to this debate. Nor is telling someone to go root for the Eagles just because they think Eli may be in a decline.
Some of you guys need to grow up.
Actually arc if you read those 2 dopes post the last several days you would understand my responses...
They are of the ilk of hysterical crybabies..
Here is one of ROK's posts as an example:
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That stat-compiling goofball
Giants_ROK : 11/11/2017 11:56 pm : link : reply
can't get gone fast enough.
As far as constructive maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously..?
I have been watching this team and going to games since the '70's and believe me the QB situation could be much worse and the odds of finding another QB like Manning are very remote...
He may be declining but I believe he still can win and is a top 10 QB...he is having as good a year as Brees and Ben but does not have their supporting casts...if he did I have no doubt the Giants would be in playoff contention...
The problem I have is how some of these so called "fans" deal with adversity...I would love to see how they deal with it in their own lives...
Ben has sucked this year. If Eli is "as good as Ben" right now, that's not a great barometer.
And dumbass on here post lists saying Ben's still a top 10 QB...
I am WAY closer to being an Eli homer than a detractor. I have always given him the benefit of the doubt, I have always leaned towards defending him rather than criticizing him.
I just can't sit here with a straight face while people try to claim that Eli hasn't declined at all. Come on. The guy is 36 years old. It's not a slight towards the guy - it's part of a natural career arc.
I also have said several times that I think he can still play QB in the NFL. The problem is that the longer the Giants try to win with Eli, the longer the laundry list of things they'll need in addition to Eli will also continue to lengthen.
I would be completely on board with trying to be a run-first offense that leaned more on play-action passing and defense - I just don't think the Giants can make that transformation quickly enough for it to work while Eli is still a decent QB.
And then you may be building a system that is less-ideal for the next guy if he's got a different skillset.
I think the Giants would be smart to start making plans for life after Eli sooner than later. A year too late would be far worse than a year too soon.
I'm as sentimental as anyone when it comes to Eli - but you have to remove that from the equation if you want to be truly objective here.
Agreed, I feel like they missed that window last year. Look Engram is a nice piece, but they needed to double down on OL. Cam Robinson or Ramczyk in the first. Then an OG in the 2nd. Instead of Engram you have Ellison and Adams, two big TEs to help run block. Maybe draft that Texas RB Foreman in the 3rd. Keep Hankins. Or Whitworth too. No to Webb, all in on Eli.
Thats all Reese. He didn't see it.
The Giants have no WR, their defense stinks, they fall behind by a lot...hence they have a lot of SOFT garbage time stats...and since they have NO WR...somebody has to get the catches.
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but even despite that, Engram is having a historic season for a rookie TE.
The Giants have no WR, their defense stinks, they fall behind by a lot...hence they have a lot of SOFT garbage time stats...and since they have NO WR...somebody has to get the catches.
Shepard was complete shit yesterday. So was Tavares King.
GoldenTee with the knowledge as usual.
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but even despite that, Engram is having a historic season for a rookie TE.
The Giants have no WR, their defense stinks, they fall behind by a lot...hence they have a lot of SOFT garbage time stats...and since they have NO WR...somebody has to get the catches.
Wasn't Engram's TD in the first half?
Britt doesn't really want to talk about football. He wants to setup trip wires he can fall into, and wig out when anyone responds.
No matter how bad the loss, how embarrassed the team gets, rest assured as the clock winds down there will be a thread praising Manning, condoning Manning, and if all else fails at least blaming other players so Manning has company.
Point of fact there is no good way to judge the logical erosion of skill of the QB with the depths of how bad this team is. If the past is any indication, aging quarterbacks don't hold up. Maybe Manning is the victim of an awful team. Maybe he's benifiting from the plausible deniability of being just one passenger in this train wreck.
What's obvious to me at least, the 2011 version of Manning brilliantly carried a flawed team to unbelievable heights. The 6 years older version isn't carrying them to more than a few victories.
The finances of the team probably dictate we'll get another chance or two to find out who this version of Manning is. The medium term cap construction should keep this team together for a few more years, they have decent coin to spend and will pick near the top in every round.
If I had to guess, Manning has enough to get a more functionally coached team on another run. But if he doesn't we certainly can bet there will be plenty of excuses.
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Dan Marino posted a 23 TD/15 INT season in 1998 at 37. He was 7th in the league in pass yards, the Dolphins finished 10-6.
By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"
The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.
I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.
How many times do I have to say that I want them to draft his replacement in the first round? Is that not planning for life beyond?
As far as the decline aspect, he's healthy and never missed a game. I don't see the decline that so many state as an obvious thing to see. I find it impossible to evaluate what Eli is or isn't under these conditions. I'm frankly surprised that so many are convinced that he's in obvious decline.
I wouldn't want to evaluate what Webb is or isn't in these conditions, either.
I'd compare physical decline to baseball (if you'll allow me to compare across sports). It's not always so obvious that a hitter just strikes out all the time and goes from great to awful overnight. But all sports are a game of inches. A matter of slight degrees. In baseball, it takes a quarter of an inch to go from barreling up a middle-in fastball into the stands, to lofting it to the warning track; it takes a split second of timing to go from driving the ball into the gap to pushing it foul.
The same can be said for football. The decline for a QB is not as obvious as him coming up short on all of his throws - it can be that his release is just a split second slower which lets the defense react and takes away the YAC opportunities; it can be that he has to wind up just a little bit more on his deep ball which causes him to spray or overthrow on long passes.
Eli doesn't appear to be old and broken down, but I don't think that's the proper definition of in decline. Rather, that's the definition of absolutely finished. Are there some here who seem to think Eli falls into the latter camp and not the former? Yes, I won't deny that - there are obviously some posters who are vehemently anti-Eli. But if you're finding yourself arguing against them, you're choosing to fight against the most unreasonable position because it gives you the most shelter within your own bias (in the same way that it's much easier on the other side of the debate to point out those posters who claim that Eli has more years on his arm than on his contract).
Eli is definitely in decline, as are most QBs who reach his age (and many don't even make it as long as he has). To point to the rare exceptions like Brady, Brees or Favre isn't to prove that Eli is not declining any more than anyone else can point to players even younger than Eli who clearly did decline physically.
Could the Giants still win with Eli? Yes. A physically declining QB is not a complete obstacle to winning - we saw it with Eli's own brother who was much more obviously declining (and closer to absolutely finished) than Eli is. But we also saw Denver basically get caught with their pants down as far as being prepared for life after Peyton and now are paying the price for it while they still have a team that would likely be competitive if only they had competent QB play.
It's only prudent to prepare for life after Eli.
Thankfully this Manning has a functional arm, which gets him ahead of Broncos era Peyton.
Unfortunately the Giants don't have a generationally great defense.
Britt doesn't really want to talk about football. He wants to setup trip wires he can fall into, and wig out when anyone responds.
No matter how bad the loss, how embarrassed the team gets, rest assured as the clock winds down there will be a thread praising Manning, condoning Manning, and if all else fails at least blaming other players so Manning has company.
Point of fact there is no good way to judge the logical erosion of skill of the QB with the depths of how bad this team is. If the past is any indication, aging quarterbacks don't hold up. Maybe Manning is the victim of an awful team. Maybe he's benifiting from the plausible deniability of being just one passenger in this train wreck.
What's obvious to me at least, the 2011 version of Manning brilliantly carried a flawed team to unbelievable heights. The 6 years older version isn't carrying them to more than a few victories.
The finances of the team probably dictate we'll get another chance or two to find out who this version of Manning is. The medium term cap construction should keep this team together for a few more years, they have decent coin to spend and will pick near the top in every round.
If I had to guess, Manning has enough to get a more functionally coached team on another run. But if he doesn't we certainly can bet there will be plenty of excuses.
Sadly this is true. Not as obvious as dep but the same MO.
Just because I don't prescribe to the group think and buzz words that happen here on a regular basis....
Just like last year, when everybody called me a Coughlin lover for pointing out there was a problem with our offense as early as October, and I got shouted down.... I couldn't see that we were 11-5, McAdoo was playing his hand perfectly and purposely, we didn't need to score 20 points because we were winning.... I didn't want to talk football, I just wanted to talk about how great Coughlin was...
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The decline for a QB is not as obvious as him coming up short on all of his throws - it can be that his release is just a split second slower which lets the defense react and takes away the YAC opportunities; it can be that he has to wind up just a little bit more on his deep ball which causes him to spray or overthrow on long passes.
Now, I know I'm setting a trap for myself to fall into, here.......
But when the defense only has to rush 3 or 4 guys, and allows the other 7 or 8 guys to drop into coverage and flood all the passing lanes, and 95% of our passing plays are under 15 yards, and two of those three or four guys are getting to the QB and hitting him in the two seconds he has to release the ball.... I'd argue it's hard to evaluate exactly whether he's in decline or not.
And while I will not argue that father time of course will make somebody naturally decline physically, let's say from 31-36, I don't see the deep chasm cliff that many here claim to see and state the decline as if it's a physical, obvious decline for all to see.
If he still can physically make all the throws, and you factor in the difficult circumstances that I cited above, then I would argue it's hard to see what exactly we have in him.
Personally, I choose to base my opinion on what I've seen from him over his career, rather than speculate without much evidence on what may be happening.
As far as preparing for life after Manning, I'm all for it. I've stated to draft his replacement in the first round this year.
All I'm saying is... You draft his replacement, you let the new coach and GM get the roster straight, then you roll the dice with Manning again next year while you groom his replacement. If Manning can't get it done, you put in his replacement and move on.
I think it's a logical plan. In fact, I think everything I just posted is pretty damn logical, but I know it's doesn't appease the cut or trade Manning crowd (even though I guarantee neither of those are going to happen, but I guess they are more worthy of discussion than what actually IS going to happen, which is the likely scenario I just outlined).
I also think last season's pedestrian (not bad - but not good, either) year is more of an indictment than this season. The weapons weren't all that different from 14/15. But Eli's had 'meh' years before.
My understanding of the cap stuff is that Eli will almost certainly be here next year. I can see a bounce back year for the team. I don't think we're as far off from a playoff spot as it feels right now. Better coaching, some new talent, etc. I'd be very surprised at a Browns/49ers stretch of mediocrity, unless we mess up Eli's successor.
This team will require 1-2 years to fix the woes at minimum. Let's again assume that we get lucky in the draft and pick up 1-2 stud OK. Those OK will take time to develop.
We are now talking about a 38-39 y/o QB making over $20M per season. At what point are you comfortable moving forward? Because many of us have alr easy reached that conclusion.
This team will require 1-2 years to fix the woes at minimum. Let's again assume that we get lucky in the draft and pick up 1-2 stud OK. Those OK will take time to develop.
We are now talking about a 38-39 y/o QB making over $20M per season. At what point are you comfortable moving forward? Because many of us have alr easy reached that conclusion.
I don't think it will take 2 years to rebuild. I've said it before and I've said it again, this league is built to go from worst to first in a single offseason. That's parity.
The Giants did it last year. McAdoo wasn't a good enough coach to build on it, because his offense was garbage, but with the right offensive coach, and the addition of a linemen or two, this team can compete, and there is talent on the roster on both sides.
Jerry Reese's failure has been the offensive line. A new GM might be able to come in and correct it. I don't believe we have to scrap Pugh, Richberg, and Flowers, I just think a vet or two playing next to them or in between them can make all the difference. Right now, we have crap across the board.
As for Eli, I'd draft his successor and let him play out his contract, OR until he shows he can't do the job any longer and it's time to put the rookie in and let the chips fall where they may. Warner was clearly shot when Eli was put in there, despite the 5-2 record. If Eli is performing like that, then put in the rookie next year.
But if you're winning, and Eli's playing at a level you're comfortable with, you let him keep playing until he can't. Aaron Rodgers sat for what? 3 years behind Favre? That worked out well for everybody.
Having a veteran QB of Eli's caliber is an asset to a new coach/GM, not a detriment, for multiple reasons.
A testament to any QB being able to succeed in better circumstances.
That's bullsh-t. Rodgers sat behind Favre for three years. Rivers behind Brees...
The only reason a QB is thrust into playing time without grooming him first is because that team likely didn't have a QB to begin with.
As much as people refuse to acknowledge it, having a capable Eli for another two years, as well as a high first round draft pick to use on a QB this year (and Webb too), is actually a great scenario. I'd venture to even say it's the IDEAL scenario.
A testament to any QB being able to succeed in better circumstances.
Warner is a very good example for your position on this debate, Britt. No question about that. It's worth noting, however, that Warner was only 33 during that year he spent with the Giants.
I think you can make the case on the other side that Donovan McNabb is an example of the opposite. 2008 looked like the start of the decline, then he bounced back a little bit in 2009, then fell off a cliff with Washington and Minnesota after that.
Rich Gannon went from first team All-Pro in his age 37 season to a combined 10 games and 1,800 yards passing over the next two years.
Steve Young went from a Pro Bowl season in his age 37 season (though despite excellent counting stats, his completion rate started to slip that year) to 3 games and 446 yards at age 38 (which would be his final season).
Dan Marino began his decline in 1996 at age 35, though many point to Jimmy Johnson being brought on as head coach and treating Marino as a game manager in a run-heavy scheme. What they don't realize is that in 1997, Marino led the league in attempts and completions, but his completion percentage and interceptions increased and both continued to increase in 1998 and 1999. I think Marino is probably the best example of a HOF QB being a franchise icon and how difficult it is to say goodbye.
In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, Marino's Dolphins did make the playoffs in each of his final three seasons. So that does support your argument, absolutely.
I think we have discussed this enough that, to some degree, we actually do agree. Where I disagree is the idea that "you let him play until he can't" because that's begging for another season like this one, ultimately. I don't think we'll see Eli trot himself out there like a broken down Namath on the Rams, though. I suspect he'll retire at the end of his contract or maybe even the end of next season, depending on how things go for him and the team and whether or not there is a young QB pushing him out of his role.
If I had to bet on it, I think the Giants draft a QB with their 1st round pick this coming draft and attempt to build a solid line around Eli one more time in 2018 (which also serves the purpose of giving the rookie a good line when his time comes). It does benefit the Giants to give a premium rookie QB prospect an opportunity to learn from Eli, and the convenient thing is that the way you'd build a roster to cushion a rookie QB is also the way you'd need to build the roster in order for Eli to be effective at this point.
But you're hedging your bets for when that time comes with a 1st round QB prospect and Webb waiting in the wings, learning. As soon as you see he's not capable anymore, there's your opening to put in the guy you've been grooming.
It's a win/win, and like I said, the ideal scenario for Eli, the new coach, and the new QB.
For the sake of accuracy, Marino's completion percentage decreased and his interceptions increased each year from 1996 on.
In watching him throw, I don't see any issues. The issues I see have to do with pocket presence and awareness. Logic tells me that could be remedied through an improved offensive line and (just as importantly) a different offensive system.
Regardless, the Giants should be planning for his replacement.
In watching him throw, I don't see any issues. The issues I see have to do with pocket presence and awareness. Logic tells me that could be remedied through an improved offensive line and (just as importantly) a different offensive system.
Regardless, the Giants should be planning for his replacement.
Agree with the bold and they should be seeking/planning for his replacement, as any smart business would.
Just because I don't prescribe to the group think and buzz words that happen here on a regular basis....
Just like last year, when everybody called me a Coughlin lover for pointing out there was a problem with our offense as early as October, and I got shouted down.... I couldn't see that we were 11-5, McAdoo was playing his hand perfectly and purposely, we didn't need to score 20 points because we were winning.... I didn't want to talk football, I just wanted to talk about how great Coughlin was...
You are a bad poster who doesn't want to really talk football in the immediate aftermath of games. You regularly fire off a defensive post of Manning, and then fire insults right of the bat or quickly thereafter.
It has nothing to do with group think or buzz words. You want to defend your point of view and find the most bizarre and childish moments to do it.
You've gone as far as to say we owe Eli Manning an apology. Really try that on for size dude - on an internet message board you outright said other strangers owe a complete other stranger an apology.
The point is Eli has done nothing but act with class and dignity and represented this franchise well despite being surrounded with shit talent a lot of his career...
Maybe people on here should learn something from it so they can become better at dealing with adversity...
Let me tell you how I deal with adversity: I laugh in its face.
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Got it.
Just because I don't prescribe to the group think and buzz words that happen here on a regular basis....
Just like last year, when everybody called me a Coughlin lover for pointing out there was a problem with our offense as early as October, and I got shouted down.... I couldn't see that we were 11-5, McAdoo was playing his hand perfectly and purposely, we didn't need to score 20 points because we were winning.... I didn't want to talk football, I just wanted to talk about how great Coughlin was...
You are a bad poster who doesn't want to really talk football in the immediate aftermath of games. You regularly fire off a defensive post of Manning, and then fire insults right of the bat or quickly thereafter.
It has nothing to do with group think or buzz words. You want to defend your point of view and find the most bizarre and childish moments to do it.
You've gone as far as to say we owe Eli Manning an apology. Really try that on for size dude - on an internet message board you outright said other strangers owe a complete other stranger an apology.
I think it's ironic that you mention that I start insulting everybody. I thought about that and went back and read this very long thread. I can't find one insult directed at anybody on this thread, from me. I feel like everything I posted, even though it was my opinion, was related to the conversation at hand and backed up with logic. Any questions I asked were legitimate and relevant to the discussion. In your two posts on the thread, you sit back and insult me, call me a bad poster, tell me I'm behaving in a bizarre and childlike fashion. Please point out where on this very, very long thread where I've insulted anybody?
As far as saying some fans owed Eli an apology, it was surely in the figurative sense. I did not expect anybody to actually write him a letter.
Finally, when is an appropriate time to post my feelings? This was posted at 10am Monday morning. Is that the immediate aftermath, or is there a time limit? Just checking for future reference.
Engram is Eli's safety net catching a lot of shorter passes and then doing something with them. That is great. However, what you are not capturing (in addition to some drops) are the high number of missed throws at critical times in the game. Or missed throws which would have been obvious TDs. On the stat line, it shows up as a simple incompletion.
What also does not show up in the stat line is how easy it is for teams to defend us because Eli poses no threat at all to leak out of the pocket. It absolutely changes the coverage schemes.
Now, I am not saying that we should get rid of Eli now. (We have nobody else at the moment.) However, his skills absolutely have been declining AND if the Giants do not begin planning for the NEAR future and find a quality QB who has the skill sets needed to compete in today's game, then we will be experiencing more seasons like this one.
The only way that line of thinking ends is by trying to blame everyone in the organization around the QB for not helping him enough while we watch handfuls of younger QBs step into the league and do impressive things.
The only way that line of thinking ends is by trying to blame everyone in the organization around the QB for not helping him enough while we watch handfuls of younger QBs step into the league and do impressive things.
But if you're winning, and Eli's playing at a level you're comfortable with, you let him keep playing until he can't. Aaron Rodgers sat for what? 3 years behind Favre? That worked out well for everybody.
Having a veteran QB of Eli's caliber is an asset to a new coach/GM, not a detriment, for multiple reasons.
But it's insanely hilarious that we can now judge Eli as in decline because of an imperceptible half a second delay or whatever else... While not just stating the obvious and ending this analysis because he has no one to run, no one to catch. Wow.
But it's insanely hilarious that we can now judge Eli as in decline because of an imperceptible half a second delay or whatever else... While not just stating the obvious and ending this analysis because he has no one to run, no one to catch. Wow.
Barring catastrophic injury, I agree, Eli is the starting QB in 2018. I put the chance of them trading him or cutting him at pretty much 0%.