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To the crowd that says NO to re-signing Pugh/Richburg

est1986 : 11/13/2017 6:20 pm
Fluker and Jones are also free agents. John Jerry is signed up, but he should not be a starter entering next season. So other than Flowers who you guys either don't want back at LT or don't want back at all... Please tell us what OL we will have next season... And then tell us how that will be better than this year's group...
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...  
christian : 11/14/2017 8:34 am : link
Pugh is the more versatile, talented player. Let him gauge the market, and if the value is there he's in the conversation.

If he can be had for 25M guaranteed (big if), he's essentially a flat cost.
RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
The_Boss : 11/14/2017 8:59 am : link
In comment 13691609 JonC said:
Quote:
Both are frequently unavailable, both are not remotely worth $10M per.

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.

It's going to be a huge challenge for this regime to rebuild the OL quickly.


I’d rather just let the next regime rebuild it.
RE: I’m not sure why  
Beer Man : 11/14/2017 9:04 am : link
In comment 13690880 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Needing offensive lineman means me should resign players who are always hurt to big money contracts
+1. We have enough overpaid players sitting on the sidelines come Sundays. I think you resign Fluker. I believe Jones has a option. I like Justin P, but he can't stay healthy a full season. I am one of a few that likes Rich, but why overpay for him when there has been no drop-off with a cheaper Jones playing.
Fluker  
NikkiMac : 11/14/2017 9:17 am : link
Where on the tape is he playing so well I don’t see it almost got Eli killed last week against the Rams didn’t look to much better against the 49ers

I wouldn’t resign him or Richburg and I would cut Jerry and B Hart and start from there with Flowers Pugh jones wheeler and cut Biznotaway too bring back Geddis and halapio
I'm curious what the staff currently thinks of Bisnowaty and Wheeler.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/14/2017 10:06 am : link
Maybe it doesn't matter, since the Maras might fire everybody anyway. But we might get a small clue at the end of the regular season, from whether the Giants sign Bisnowaty to a reserve/future contract. They will almost certainly offer him one (it costs nothing), and I expect that he and his agent will consider the Giants - with their gaping holes at LG, RG and RT - his best opportunity.
I said,  
Doomster : 11/14/2017 10:11 am : link
this OL is going to be a clusterf*ck next season....we couldn't fix it in 7 seasons, and you think it will be fixed next year?

Fluker is not starter material, because he sucks in pass blocking.....

Flowers is under contract for one more year....do you want to re-sign him? I mean he can't run block in short yardage situations and after 2 seconds his pass blocking is suspect...

Pugh/Richburg could be the reincarnation of Baas/Schwartz...

I have no idea where you start...after 7 seasons we do not have one building block in this OL....and when you hear names like Wheeler and Bisnowaty, you just have to shake your head and say, "here we go again."
RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
Kyle in NY : 11/14/2017 10:12 am : link
In comment 13691609 JonC said:
Quote:
Both are frequently unavailable, both are not remotely worth $10M per.

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.

It's going to be a huge challenge for this regime to rebuild the OL quickly.


Good point on Beatty. Situation feels similar.

Richburg's lack of ability to get movement in the run game has been a hindrance to the offense and these concussion issues are worrisome.

Pugh has performed admirably and has been a good soldier moving all around the line. But durability remains a concern and he's been good but not great.

With some big money deals on the horizon for actual elite players at their position like Odell and Collins (I'm still a believer despite a tough season), tough decisions will need to be made.

Seems counter-intuitive to rebuild the OL by letting maybe your two best guys go. But can't pay good players elite money. Otherwise you end up with the mess we have a defensive end.
RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
BrettNYG10 : 11/14/2017 10:15 am : link
In comment 13691609 JonC said:
Quote:
Both are frequently unavailable, both are not remotely worth $10M per.

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.

It's going to be a huge challenge for this regime to rebuild the OL quickly.
...

This regime? :(
Important detail WIDELY overlooked in the posts above  
rich in DC : 11/14/2017 10:27 am : link
There will almost certainly be a new coach, new staff and new GM next season.

As a result, there will likely be a significant change in what offense the team runs. In today's game, the offensive scheme has as much to do with the offensive line play as the skill level.

It is important to note that not every OL fits every scheme. Flowers probably can start in most systems, but might not be a LT in some of them. Pugh, Jones and others have athletic limitations that might not mesh with a new system. Thus, we are VERY much putting the cart before the horse if you are trying to decide who returns on the OL bases solely on FA or who is injured or not.

Remember as well that if the Giants bring in an experienced head coach who brings in an experienced staff, they are likely to have relationships with players around the league and familiarity with the new offensive scheme that will favor certain OL over others.

Anyone claiming that they what next year's needs on the OL are or who is a "must sign" is fooling themselves until the new coach and staff is brought in and we know what scheme will be run.
Doomster: I don't mean to suggest they build around Wheeler/Bisnowaty.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/14/2017 10:34 am : link
The first step in the rebuild, though, is to assess what they have. Richburg and Pugh are big decisions. So is Flowers's Year Five option. Whether to pursue Fluker and tender Jones are also significant questions. Then, way down the significance scale, are end-of-the-bench guys like Wheeler and Bisnowaty. Any good SWOT analysis includes all the relevant assets, even those with near-zero value.
not much to add here  
Banks : 11/14/2017 11:02 am : link
I'm in the camp that says make an offer to Pugh, but don't overpay. If he walks we are worse in the short term, but long term it should work out. This reminds me of the Beatty situation a couple years ago. He wasn't all that great and coming off a meh year, but given a limited FA pool and hoping he'd improve, he got paid big. I wouldn't want to see a repeat of that, particularly given that we are in rebuild mode.
my memory is getting fuzzy and misspoke  
Banks : 11/14/2017 11:09 am : link
I think Beatty finally had a good year before his big deal and then fell back off the cliff. Either way, my point was we paid quite a bit for a guy that didn't show much save one year and probably shouldn't do that with Pugh. Richburg has been a massive disappointment after so much promise. I'd just let him walk
No to Richberg  
Bluesbreaker : 11/14/2017 11:15 am : link
he is not a top five center and Jones is a backup problem with Pugh is health otherwise he is our best lineman .
Flowers is having a decent season . I doubt we are gonna
take Nelson that high even though he is the best lineman in the draft . Were most likely taking a QB although I would rather gamble on Webb and take Barkley .
If Reese is at the helm we will stay put I hope he is gone
and get a GM that isn't afraid to make some deals on guy
that have value to get more picks in the draft .
the ideal line next year  
hitdog42 : 11/14/2017 11:21 am : link
is a combo of flowers, jones, pugh, fluker, and a stud... that stud either comes at the top of the draft or via free agency... and given the versatility of Pugh... that stud can be a guard or a tackle.

if you get a new/good/less stubborn coach out there... with that group, i think the offense will be absolutely fine.
the 2nd WR spot will also be an area of focus but that isnt the topic of this thread
RE: Important detail WIDELY overlooked in the posts above  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/14/2017 11:23 am : link
In comment 13691779 rich in DC said:
Quote:
There will almost certainly be a new coach, new staff and new GM next season.

As a result, there will likely be a significant change in what offense the team runs. In today's game, the offensive scheme has as much to do with the offensive line play as the skill level.

It is important to note that not every OL fits every scheme. Flowers probably can start in most systems, but might not be a LT in some of them. Pugh, Jones and others have athletic limitations that might not mesh with a new system. Thus, we are VERY much putting the cart before the horse if you are trying to decide who returns on the OL bases solely on FA or who is injured or not.

Remember as well that if the Giants bring in an experienced head coach who brings in an experienced staff, they are likely to have relationships with players around the league and familiarity with the new offensive scheme that will favor certain OL over others.

Anyone claiming that they what next year's needs on the OL are or who is a "must sign" is fooling themselves until the new coach and staff is brought in and we know what scheme will be run.


+1

This is why any decision on ANY player has to be put on hold until we know what is going to happen after December 31.
RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
Racer : 11/14/2017 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13691609 JonC said:
Quote:

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.


Actually, this is one of my favorite Reese topics. Somebody mentioned within the last couple of weeks that he's been historically a little jumpy when it comes to decision making, or words to that effect. I always thought he wanted certainty at LT in the face of the new CBA (and the resulting horde of FAs) and penned Beatty early rather than let the market play itself out, and got lousy value as a result.

I don't think it was desparation, I think it was not having the balls to ante up at the big boys table. In particular would like to hear YOUR opinion on how that situation played out, Sir.
RE: RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
JonC : 11/14/2017 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13691965 Racer said:
Quote:
In comment 13691609 JonC said:


Quote:



As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.




Actually, this is one of my favorite Reese topics. Somebody mentioned within the last couple of weeks that he's been historically a little jumpy when it comes to decision making, or words to that effect. I always thought he wanted certainty at LT in the face of the new CBA (and the resulting horde of FAs) and penned Beatty early rather than let the market play itself out, and got lousy value as a result.

I don't think it was desparation, I think it was not having the balls to ante up at the big boys table. In particular would like to hear YOUR opinion on how that situation played out, Sir.


I think it was overrating his own draft pick, which allowed him to go the path of least resistance.
+2 Chicago  
idiotsavant : 11/14/2017 12:57 pm : link
And add the new GM to that as a prerequisite. A OL centric one.
RE: RE: RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
Racer : 11/14/2017 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13691986 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13691609 JonC said:

Quote:

I think it was overrating his own draft pick, which allowed him to go the path of least resistance.


Nothing new there. This despite the fact he was known to the outside world as 'a dancer' with 'no punch'. Thanks.
The Will Beatty contract has been beaten to death on this board.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/14/2017 1:19 pm : link
If he had continued to play at his 2012 level, or even avoided the off-season 2015 injury and played a couple more years at his 2014 level, that contract would have been a non-issue. He was awful in 2013. So were a lot of Giants. That team turned the ball over 44 times.
I'd keep Flowers, Pugh, and one of RB/Jones  
PatersonPlank : 11/14/2017 1:42 pm : link
The rest can go if they want, or stay for a contract that is good for the team.
cubed  
JonC : 11/14/2017 1:43 pm : link
It wasn't the average-level contract value so much as quickly doubling down on Beatty that I disliked. He didn't make much sense drafted where he was, but he definitely fit the profile of what they looked for.
RE: The Will Beatty contract has been beaten to death on this board.  
Racer : 11/14/2017 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13692045 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:


Maybe, but I don't recall commentary about timing of that FA season and JR for some reason 'doubling down' as JonC puts it before the market had even gotten momentum.

BBI discussion volume isn't always proportional to discussion value. That goes for posters and topics both.
RE: RE: Has Pugh Played an Entire Season?  
Diver_Down : 11/15/2017 9:08 am : link
In comment 13691191 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13691158 Samiam said:


Quote:


Seems to me he’s missed a few games every year since he’s been here, any truth to that?



He played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since, he has missed multiple games. So far this year, he has only missed 1 full game. His sore back started going into the bye. He missed the 2nd half yesterday, and I won't be surprised if he misses this week.


As expected, Pugh will be missing more games.
Pugh Keeping His Streak Going - ( New Window )
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