from the perimeter. The NBA three is longer ad LoBalls doesn't have a mid-range game. So the shooting struggles are not that surprising. And yes, he certainly needs to revamp the stroke.
However, he's 6'6", has a good handle, and can get to the rack. And he gets there pretty well. The stunner is his inability to finish at the rim. I'd love to know those facts but my guess is he's shooting < 50% for layups. Which is crazy. That can't happen. If he can get that right it will open up so much more for the Lakers' offense because he's fairly solid at finding shooters.
If he can't get that right, he's really on the way to bust city...
Now back to the hack. My comments have nothing to do with anything but my fascination with the hype of this severely flawed player. So many out here talking out of their asses about what he was going to do in the NBA. I admit to enjoying the end of that (although a few are still expecting it).
I post what I see. I watch the games. I'm amazed this player was a high pick. Amazed any NBA scout would favor him over Tatum.
Pointing out he doesn't create for him or others and can't get any shot off isn't a bias take. Has nothing to do with enjoying the change in Laker fans either. It's simply true. And when he gets the shot off, we'll, we know the results. It's usually off. Badly.
He sucks. The other rookie is the guy to watch. And Ingram. Ball? There is no hope for the guy other than limited role player.
I heard on radio he's shooting 14% from 3 at Staples
However, he's 6'6", has a good handle, and can get to the rack. And he gets there pretty well.
The only thing true about that statement is that he is 6'6. He has a poor handle for a PG, and doesn't have the athleticism to get to the rim effectively. He can get there by getting stronger, which I expect him to do, but De-Aaron Fox is a stringbean, and he can get to the rim pretty well.
The only thing true about that statement is that he is 6'6. He has a poor handle for a PG, and doesn't have the athleticism to get to the rim effectively. He can get there by getting stronger, which I expect him to do, but De-Aaron Fox is a stringbean, and he can get to the rim pretty well.
I didn't say he has a great handle - like an Irvin or Curry. I said he has a good handle. And it's good enough to run an NBA team because he can see over most defenders guarding him. He's only 19 so I would expect that facet of his game to get better.
Sorry, but you are wrong. He can get to the rim. Is he as quick as the smaller Fox? No. But he has the length and stride to get into the lane fairly routinely. It's just that his confidence is so shot right now he is doing it less and less. And that is exactly what he should be doing because he can't shoot from the outside...
He doesn't have elite handle or quicks. He can't get by NBA guys. This is one of the biggest issues. He doesn't get into the lane and create. He doesn't get to the free throw line because of it. IMO, this is more concerning than the shooting %. He cant get by NBA defenders.
When the defense is back he usually gives the ball up early. Hes a half court liability.
Last night was the easy game. Beverly was out. He did nothing. He's got a really tough 4 weeks of matchups coming up.
He doesn't have elite handle or quicks. He can't get by NBA guys. This is one of the biggest issues. He doesn't get into the lane and create. He doesn't get to the free throw line because of it. IMO, this is more concerning than the shooting %. He cant get by NBA defenders.
When the defense is back he usually gives the ball up early. Hes a half court liability.
Last night was the easy game. Beverly was out. He did nothing. He's got a really tough 4 weeks of matchups coming up.
I watched nearly every Laker game and my translation, again, is this - the lack of penetration is now due to a lack of confidence. He's mentally shot.
I hate to defend the guy, because I think he's tremendously over-hyped and his dad is a grade A douche, but he's very young playing arguably the most important position in the NBA.
For the young crop, I'm a huge Simmons fan. For his size, his skills at running the point are just off the charts. If he ever develops a jumper, and he needs to decide, really, if he's a lefty or righty, he's on a path to greatness...
KWALL2 : 11:47 am : link : reply
Have you seen any evidence of this in the NBA?
I don't think you have. This isn't college. He cant get by NBA defenders. Hes rarely in the lane making a play.
Yes, everyone who has watched has seen evidence. Lonzo has attempted 216 shots in his young career. 38% of them (82) have been at the rim. His shitty finishing is a legitimate conversation to have. Other folks can discuss it though while you call it fake news.
you can hate or not hate Lonzo or the Lakers
UConn4523 : 11:33 am : link : reply
it doesn't change how he's playing or what we are seeing on TV.
It absolutely does change what people see.
11 pts, 11 assists, 7 rebounds
Quote:
dpinzow : 11/23/2017 2:10 pm : link : reply
Lonzo was garbage last night outside of that alley-oop
Quote:
Another average game from a terribly overrated player
BigBlue4You09 : 11/23/2017 2:40 pm : link : reply
It really doesn't. The only thing that changes is perception, not the stats or results. Unlike say a QB in football, there are far less metrics in basketball to determine the efficiency of a player.
If you think Ball is playing well than I don't know what to tell you. If the argument is simply give him time he will get better, that's completely acceptable and up for more of a debate.
UConn4523 : 12:03 pm : link : reply
It really doesn't.
If you think Ball is playing well than I don't know what to tell you
It really does. Ball is not playing well overall. Ball is rebounding well, usually assisting well, and surprisingly playing defense well. When metrics and stats are not in a person's favor and they fight to disregard them, those are the people you should be having trouble talking to.
than most of the league is playing well or better. If you want to look at efficiency rating he's currently tied for 266th. He isnt playing well. Doesn't mean he can't in time, but he's simply not a good player right now.
82 Shots "at the rim" is evidence he can get to the rack and beat guys off the dribble? Thats 100% BS.
Players that get to the rack get fouled (at least occasionally). Ball is at the bottom of the entire league in FTA/minute. You can't find a guard in the league getting there less.
He's beating guys off the dribble but not getting calls? Is that it?
No. The true story is he is NOT beating guys off the dribble and he has not shown that ability in the NBA.
Take a closer look at the assists. You see him beating guys off the dribble and dishing? He isn't doing that. Defenders aren't struggling with the guy.
He's been very passive. He doesn't go to the hole.
Take a closer look at the assists. You see him beating guys off the dribble and dishing? He isn't doing that. Defenders aren't struggling with the guy.
He's been very passive. He doesn't go to the hole.
Again, I do. And defenders "aren't struggling" with the LoBalls because they want him to shoot. I see teams giving him so much space that he keeps firing these awful threes because Walton still gives him the green light.
Walton needs to be the catalyst her - no more threes, get to the basket. Leave that to Kuzma, Pope and Clarkson...
you realize assists does not mean he can beat people off the dribble right?
Uh, no. Not with 7.5 assists per game. If he was averaging 2 or 3 then maybe you have a point. But you are being totally unreasonable to suggest that he's getting 7+ assists without beating people off the dribble. Sorry, that's impossible.
I don't care about assist numbers. There are many ways to get assists. He isnt doing it by beating guys off the dribble. It's long passes. Fast break on occasion. Swinging the ball around the outside. Some pick and roll. And the out of bounds assist along with some help from the Lakers scorekeeper. Assists? - ( New Window )
KWALL2 : 3:07 pm : link : reply
It's long passes. Fast break on occasion. Swinging the ball around the outside. Some pick and roll. And the out of bounds assist
Well why didn't you say so? No one takes those kind of assists seriously for any player.
We are discounting them for every other player, right?
like "you can teach somebody to shoot well, but you can't teach vision or instincts", yet there are very few cases in the NBA of players that dramatically improved their shooting or have gone from a terrible shooting % to a decent one.
The mechanics of shooting are very difficult to not just fix - but to even improve, especially for guards. Mid to long range jumpers have separated NCAA players from the NBA players for many years, and each year we see guards come out that can't make the transition.
like "you can teach somebody to shoot well, but you can't teach vision or instincts", yet there are very few cases in the NBA of players that dramatically improved their shooting or have gone from a terrible shooting % to a decent one.
The mechanics of shooting are very difficult to not just fix - but to even improve, especially for guards. Mid to long range jumpers have separated NCAA players from the NBA players for many years, and each year we see guards come out that can't make the transition.
That's right. Changing LoBalls stroke is a major reclamation project. That's a lot of years of muscle memory to unwind. It'll be one thing to change the mechanics in practice sessions. But then it has to convey to game situations.
Oddly enough, his release point is pretty good as he gets good rotation on the ball. The wind-up though is killing his accuracy and ball trajectory...
Him finishing. Never brought it up while discussing his inability to beat a guy off the dribble.
Filthy replies about 82 shots at the rim. My reply was those 82 shots means nothing about "getting to the rack". Never brought up his inability to finish. I did bring up the lack of any free throws. He's currently at the bottom of the league in FTA per minute.
One of the main reasons for the lack of FTs? Not the ability to finish. He isnt getting there. He isnt driving to the basket. Look at yesterday's mess. Every shot except one was a 3, right? The one shot at the rim? A 3 on 1 break and he blew the layup.
No drives to the basket yesterday. Typical for Ball.
Him finishing. Never brought it up while discussing his inability to beat a guy off the dribble.
Filthy replies about 82 shots at the rim. My reply was those 82 shots means nothing about "getting to the rack". Never brought up his inability to finish. I did bring up the lack of any free throws. He's currently at the bottom of the league in FTA per minute.
One of the main reasons for the lack of FTs? Not the ability to finish. He isnt getting there. He isnt driving to the basket. Look at yesterday's mess. Every shot except one was a 3, right? The one shot at the rim? A 3 on 1 break and he blew the layup.
No drives to the basket yesterday. Typical for Ball.
But here's why - teams are sagging off LoBalls and inviting him to shoot. If the guy "guarding" LoBalls had a placard it would say, "By all means, please shoot!" And he's taking the bait because Walton continues to encourage him to shoot. Walton seems to think he can shoot himself out of his slump.
But at this point I think we can all agree the sample size is big enough to conclude LoBalls can't make an NBA 3 with that shooting form. So he needs to drive more and figure out how to finish. That's easier to work on right now that restructuring a jump shot completely...
That will continue. But wth that % he shouldn't take it.
If he was beating guys off the dribble then you simply dribble closet, close the gap, and beat them to the basket. But he doesn't do that.
My guess is the next 20 will be worse than the first 20 games for Ball. Just too many problems and limitations. Teams will get even better at exposing it.
I like the other rookie a lot. Maybe the steal of the draft.
The shooting form is a bigger problem on mid range shots. Much bigger. Often 3s are wide open and you can make it with an awfward shot or low release point.
His biggest problem is he can't even attempt a shot in the mid range game. He also can't go right and take a jumper. Can't pull up and shoot. Off the pick and roll he can't get the shot off. Forget about making it. He can't take it.
Long term it won't work. It's not working now but it will get worse for him as players learn his weaknesses.
That will continue. But wth that % he shouldn't take it.
If he was beating guys off the dribble then you simply dribble closet, close the gap, and beat them to the basket. But he doesn't do that.
My guess is the next 20 will be worse than the first 20 games for Ball. Just too many problems and limitations. Teams will get even better at exposing it.
I like the other rookie a lot. Maybe the steal of the draft.
If I'm a team I NEVER pick him up until he gets foul line extended. Why waste the energy for a guy who can't shoot the ball into the ocean? On the other hand, Walton needs to spearhead the change. He needs to say take it to the basket the majority of the time or we're cutting your time...
Kuzma looks to be the real deal. Hopefully, he can keep up the production when the "wall effect" occurs. He was a real sleeper for Utah. I watched him at the combine and he really stood out.
However, he's 6'6", has a good handle, and can get to the rack. And he gets there pretty well. The stunner is his inability to finish at the rim. I'd love to know those facts but my guess is he's shooting < 50% for layups. Which is crazy. That can't happen. If he can get that right it will open up so much more for the Lakers' offense because he's fairly solid at finding shooters.
If he can't get that right, he's really on the way to bust city...
Now back to the hack. My comments have nothing to do with anything but my fascination with the hype of this severely flawed player. So many out here talking out of their asses about what he was going to do in the NBA. I admit to enjoying the end of that (although a few are still expecting it).
I post what I see. I watch the games. I'm amazed this player was a high pick. Amazed any NBA scout would favor him over Tatum.
Pointing out he doesn't create for him or others and can't get any shot off isn't a bias take. Has nothing to do with enjoying the change in Laker fans either. It's simply true. And when he gets the shot off, we'll, we know the results. It's usually off. Badly.
He sucks. The other rookie is the guy to watch. And Ingram. Ball? There is no hope for the guy other than limited role player.
However, he's 6'6", has a good handle, and can get to the rack. And he gets there pretty well.
The only thing true about that statement is that he is 6'6. He has a poor handle for a PG, and doesn't have the athleticism to get to the rim effectively. He can get there by getting stronger, which I expect him to do, but De-Aaron Fox is a stringbean, and he can get to the rim pretty well.
Quote:
The only thing true about that statement is that he is 6'6. He has a poor handle for a PG, and doesn't have the athleticism to get to the rim effectively. He can get there by getting stronger, which I expect him to do, but De-Aaron Fox is a stringbean, and he can get to the rim pretty well.
I didn't say he has a great handle - like an Irvin or Curry. I said he has a good handle. And it's good enough to run an NBA team because he can see over most defenders guarding him. He's only 19 so I would expect that facet of his game to get better.
Sorry, but you are wrong. He can get to the rim. Is he as quick as the smaller Fox? No. But he has the length and stride to get into the lane fairly routinely. It's just that his confidence is so shot right now he is doing it less and less. And that is exactly what he should be doing because he can't shoot from the outside...
3-10 feet=.250
10-16 feet=.400
16-<3pt line=.143
16+=.245
I don't rip the guy because of the Lakers. If he was on the Suns the comments would be the same.
He doesn't have elite handle or quicks. He can't get by NBA guys. This is one of the biggest issues. He doesn't get into the lane and create. He doesn't get to the free throw line because of it. IMO, this is more concerning than the shooting %. He cant get by NBA defenders.
When the defense is back he usually gives the ball up early. Hes a half court liability.
Last night was the easy game. Beverly was out. He did nothing. He's got a really tough 4 weeks of matchups coming up.
He doesn't have elite handle or quicks. He can't get by NBA guys. This is one of the biggest issues. He doesn't get into the lane and create. He doesn't get to the free throw line because of it. IMO, this is more concerning than the shooting %. He cant get by NBA defenders.
When the defense is back he usually gives the ball up early. Hes a half court liability.
Last night was the easy game. Beverly was out. He did nothing. He's got a really tough 4 weeks of matchups coming up.
That's a good thing for the Lakers!
Have you seen any evidence of this in the NBA?
I don't think you have. This isn't college. He cant get by NBA defenders. Hes rarely in the lane making a play.
Going to the Lakers and being under the microscope in his hometown probably isn't doing him any favors.
UConn4523 : 11:33 am : link : reply
it doesn't change how he's playing or what we are seeing on TV.
It absolutely does change what people see.
11 pts, 11 assists, 7 rebounds
Lonzo was garbage last night outside of that alley-oop
BigBlue4You09 : 11/23/2017 2:40 pm : link : reply
I hate to defend the guy, because I think he's tremendously over-hyped and his dad is a grade A douche, but he's very young playing arguably the most important position in the NBA.
For the young crop, I'm a huge Simmons fan. For his size, his skills at running the point are just off the charts. If he ever develops a jumper, and he needs to decide, really, if he's a lefty or righty, he's on a path to greatness...
Have you seen any evidence of this in the NBA?
I don't think you have. This isn't college. He cant get by NBA defenders. Hes rarely in the lane making a play.
Yes, everyone who has watched has seen evidence. Lonzo has attempted 216 shots in his young career. 38% of them (82) have been at the rim. His shitty finishing is a legitimate conversation to have. Other folks can discuss it though while you call it fake news.
Quote:
you can hate or not hate Lonzo or the Lakers
UConn4523 : 11:33 am : link : reply
it doesn't change how he's playing or what we are seeing on TV.
It absolutely does change what people see.
11 pts, 11 assists, 7 rebounds
Quote:
dpinzow : 11/23/2017 2:10 pm : link : reply
Lonzo was garbage last night outside of that alley-oop
Quote:
Another average game from a terribly overrated player
BigBlue4You09 : 11/23/2017 2:40 pm : link : reply
It really doesn't. The only thing that changes is perception, not the stats or results. Unlike say a QB in football, there are far less metrics in basketball to determine the efficiency of a player.
If you think Ball is playing well than I don't know what to tell you. If the argument is simply give him time he will get better, that's completely acceptable and up for more of a debate.
It really doesn't.
If you think Ball is playing well than I don't know what to tell you
It really does. Ball is not playing well overall. Ball is rebounding well, usually assisting well, and surprisingly playing defense well. When metrics and stats are not in a person's favor and they fight to disregard them, those are the people you should be having trouble talking to.
"Assisting well"? Is that a thing?
He isn't making plays for others well. That's for damn sure.
82 Shots "at the rim" is evidence he can get to the rack and beat guys off the dribble? Thats 100% BS.
Players that get to the rack get fouled (at least occasionally). Ball is at the bottom of the entire league in FTA/minute. You can't find a guard in the league getting there less.
He's beating guys off the dribble but not getting calls? Is that it?
No. The true story is he is NOT beating guys off the dribble and he has not shown that ability in the NBA.
33 min/game. 1.4 FTA/game
Find a guard getting there less?
Based on last year's stats, that would rank him 275th in the NBA in FTA per 36.
I don't know what you're watching that shows him getting to the rack. It isn't happening especially in the half court.
FTA per 36 - ( New Window )
Lonzo's messed up mechanics - ( New Window )
And he's only 19. I hate to defend the guy but to claim he's unable to beat people off the dribble is simply silly.
And he's only 19. I hate to defend the guy but to claim he's unable to beat people off the dribble is simply silly.
assists are such an overrated stat..
you realize assists does not mean he can beat people off the dribble right?
Take a closer look at the assists. You see him beating guys off the dribble and dishing? He isn't doing that. Defenders aren't struggling with the guy.
He's been very passive. He doesn't go to the hole.
Take a closer look at the assists. You see him beating guys off the dribble and dishing? He isn't doing that. Defenders aren't struggling with the guy.
He's been very passive. He doesn't go to the hole.
Again, I do. And defenders "aren't struggling" with the LoBalls because they want him to shoot. I see teams giving him so much space that he keeps firing these awful threes because Walton still gives him the green light.
Walton needs to be the catalyst her - no more threes, get to the basket. Leave that to Kuzma, Pope and Clarkson...
Quote:
assists are such an overrated stat..
you realize assists does not mean he can beat people off the dribble right?
Uh, no. Not with 7.5 assists per game. If he was averaging 2 or 3 then maybe you have a point. But you are being totally unreasonable to suggest that he's getting 7+ assists without beating people off the dribble. Sorry, that's impossible.
He Isn't doing it.
I don't care about assist numbers. There are many ways to get assists. He isnt doing it by beating guys off the dribble. It's long passes. Fast break on occasion. Swinging the ball around the outside. Some pick and roll. And the out of bounds assist along with some help from the Lakers scorekeeper.
Assists? - ( New Window )
It's long passes. Fast break on occasion. Swinging the ball around the outside. Some pick and roll. And the out of bounds assist
Well why didn't you say so? No one takes those kind of assists seriously for any player.
We are discounting them for every other player, right?
The mechanics of shooting are very difficult to not just fix - but to even improve, especially for guards. Mid to long range jumpers have separated NCAA players from the NBA players for many years, and each year we see guards come out that can't make the transition.
The mechanics of shooting are very difficult to not just fix - but to even improve, especially for guards. Mid to long range jumpers have separated NCAA players from the NBA players for many years, and each year we see guards come out that can't make the transition.
That's right. Changing LoBalls stroke is a major reclamation project. That's a lot of years of muscle memory to unwind. It'll be one thing to change the mechanics in practice sessions. But then it has to convey to game situations.
Oddly enough, his release point is pretty good as he gets good rotation on the ball. The wind-up though is killing his accuracy and ball trajectory...
In the half court is he getting into the lane?
Yes or no?
No, and it's ugly.
No, and it's ugly.
You and I watch the same games. It is incredible how LoBalls can't finish...
Can you find anything out there in print about his ability to penetrate or anything positive about his half court game?
I don't think you can.
Can you find anything out there in print about his ability to penetrate or anything positive about his half court game?
I don't think you can.
You can beat defenders off the dribble and not be an effective finisher. Why is that challenging? They are not mutually exclusive.
Filthy replies about 82 shots at the rim. My reply was those 82 shots means nothing about "getting to the rack". Never brought up his inability to finish. I did bring up the lack of any free throws. He's currently at the bottom of the league in FTA per minute.
One of the main reasons for the lack of FTs? Not the ability to finish. He isnt getting there. He isnt driving to the basket. Look at yesterday's mess. Every shot except one was a 3, right? The one shot at the rim? A 3 on 1 break and he blew the layup.
No drives to the basket yesterday. Typical for Ball.
Filthy replies about 82 shots at the rim. My reply was those 82 shots means nothing about "getting to the rack". Never brought up his inability to finish. I did bring up the lack of any free throws. He's currently at the bottom of the league in FTA per minute.
One of the main reasons for the lack of FTs? Not the ability to finish. He isnt getting there. He isnt driving to the basket. Look at yesterday's mess. Every shot except one was a 3, right? The one shot at the rim? A 3 on 1 break and he blew the layup.
No drives to the basket yesterday. Typical for Ball.
But here's why - teams are sagging off LoBalls and inviting him to shoot. If the guy "guarding" LoBalls had a placard it would say, "By all means, please shoot!" And he's taking the bait because Walton continues to encourage him to shoot. Walton seems to think he can shoot himself out of his slump.
But at this point I think we can all agree the sample size is big enough to conclude LoBalls can't make an NBA 3 with that shooting form. So he needs to drive more and figure out how to finish. That's easier to work on right now that restructuring a jump shot completely...
If he was beating guys off the dribble then you simply dribble closet, close the gap, and beat them to the basket. But he doesn't do that.
My guess is the next 20 will be worse than the first 20 games for Ball. Just too many problems and limitations. Teams will get even better at exposing it.
I like the other rookie a lot. Maybe the steal of the draft.
His biggest problem is he can't even attempt a shot in the mid range game. He also can't go right and take a jumper. Can't pull up and shoot. Off the pick and roll he can't get the shot off. Forget about making it. He can't take it.
Long term it won't work. It's not working now but it will get worse for him as players learn his weaknesses.
If he was beating guys off the dribble then you simply dribble closet, close the gap, and beat them to the basket. But he doesn't do that.
My guess is the next 20 will be worse than the first 20 games for Ball. Just too many problems and limitations. Teams will get even better at exposing it.
I like the other rookie a lot. Maybe the steal of the draft.
If I'm a team I NEVER pick him up until he gets foul line extended. Why waste the energy for a guy who can't shoot the ball into the ocean? On the other hand, Walton needs to spearhead the change. He needs to say take it to the basket the majority of the time or we're cutting your time...
Kuzma looks to be the real deal. Hopefully, he can keep up the production when the "wall effect" occurs. He was a real sleeper for Utah. I watched him at the combine and he really stood out.
Lonzo with the quick 8 - ( New Window )