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I just don't understand the blind love for 2017 Eli Manning

NYG07 : 11/25/2017 9:34 pm
by some on here. We are Giants fans, not Manning fans. When the total QBR stat was released in 2010, Eli finished the season ranked 7th, in spite of throwing 25 interceptions that season. That is how damned good he used to be. He currently sits at 23rd this season. By comparison, even with Prescott's rough last couple of games, all 3 of the other QBs in the division are in the top 10.

Want to blame injuries? The offense was completly healthy in 2016, and Eli finished 27th in total QBR. Even if you don't believe in advanced metrics, use your eyes. What does he do well at this stage of his career? The offensive line was terrible in 2014 and 2015 too, but Manning played well in spite of that.

This is not some agenda against Eli, I just think we can do better. I want to win superbowls in the future, not cling to the past. The next QB may never reach the greatness Eli displayed in 2011, but it is very probable that he can play better than Eli is right now.
I don't understand  
jtgiants : 11/25/2017 10:00 pm : link
The people in here who don't get Eli can and will still win games if given the compliment of nfl caliber players. He doesn't have a lone or weapons. Your best chance, to win next year, is with Eli.

Also eli was the  
jtgiants : 11/25/2017 10:01 pm : link
Best player in the playoff game last year. Give him weapons and health and he can still do it. At least for the now.
Not wanting to see Geno Smith or Davis Webb  
bceagle05 : 11/25/2017 10:10 pm : link
hardly equates to blind love. I'm willing to bet most of Eli's ardent supporters would have no problem with the Giants taking a QB in the first round and handing the reins over to him over the following year or so.
"We are Giant fans, not Manning fans"  
Canton : 11/25/2017 10:14 pm : link
Says you...

I'm a Manning bruhhh. So get that shit out of here. You don't speak for me and you surely can't speak for the other Manning fans on this site.


I go back and forth to some degree  
djm : 11/25/2017 10:16 pm : link
But I always remain steadfast in my belief that the position needs to be upgraded especially if the qb can be had in this draft. To me it's so simple. It's time to add talent to the qb spot and let the best man win.

When evaluating qbs I try to keep it simple. Is the guy making plays? Great Qbs can cover up a lot of warts. Good ones can win if things are ok. Average ones can win if things are good. Below average qbs need things to be even better and bad ones ruin everything. Some qbs are good or great or bad forever. Some progress or regress and it's not always linear.

Eli was very good to great for about 10 years. Some ups some downs not as consistent as the all time greats but he had two long all time moments that ended in glory. He was pretty good last year. More clutch than consistent as he made a lot of plays in the second half of games that sort of went over looked due to the offensive numbers or struggles all year long. It wasn't pretty but Eli delivered. This year who the fuck knows with all the injuries but Eli and the offense were so cold early, even with the OL disaster and Beckham injury at some point we need the qb to elevate and start things hot. Eli hasn't done that in ages. His cold steaks are longer. The offense is never "just right" -- maybe Eli is the problem. Sometimes you have to ask and answer scary questions. Giants better be on this.

Upgrade. Let them battle it out. Simple. Fuck anyone's hurt feelings.
RE:  
djm : 11/25/2017 10:17 pm : link
In comment 13705220 Canton said:
Quote:
Says you...

I'm a Manning bruhhh. So get that shit out of here. You don't speak for me and you surely can't speak for the other Manning fans on this site.



If you operate with that mindset you're killing the franchise.
I'd say more of BBI has been harder on him  
Route 9 : 11/25/2017 10:27 pm : link
than not (in 2017)
RE: I don't understand  
bigbluehoya : 11/25/2017 10:31 pm : link
In comment 13705206 jtgiants said:
Quote:
The people in here who don't get Eli can and will still win games if given the compliment of nfl caliber players. He doesn't have a lone or weapons. Your best chance, to win next year, is with Eli.


When you say “can and still will win games”, is this a euphemism for something else?

I’m not being a smart-ass. I just really don’t know what it means. Blake Bortles can and still will win games. And he sucks.

Also - look at this team right now - “best chance to win next year” should absolutely not be a priority right now.

“What gives this team the best chance to make the playoffs consistently every year starting in 2019?” — to me, his should be the priority. Sometimes if you do it right, you’ll start winning even sooner.
It's not blind love.  
IIT : 11/25/2017 10:53 pm : link
On the contrary- it's perfectly objective and clear sighted.

Give him a line, a running game that averages over 100 yards per game, a coach with a decent playbook and some acumen, and two guys who can consistently get open and catch the football.

If he still sucks at that point you might be able to persuade me that Webb is a better option. I don't believe Geno will ever be.

What else have you got? It's not like Brady is cooling his heels on the bench.

It's like your car won't start and you guys think changing the tires for training wheels will get it rolling again.

Brilliant.
Sure he can win games  
hassan : 11/25/2017 10:54 pm : link
He was average to below average last year and they won games. JT if they draft a qb you have no idea if they will or won't be better than Eli.
Bigbluehoya  
jtgiants : 11/25/2017 10:54 pm : link
This is a year to year league. The giants won 11 games last year. Now they suck. That's because they have been ravaged by injuries. Don't get me wrong. That's not the only season but whatever could go wrong did. My point. The giants are going to expect to win next year not rebuild. Eli is there best chance to do that. It doesn't mean you don't take a (Fat old) as an example. It just means you try to win next year and that is the mindset to take imo.
Hassan  
jtgiants : 11/25/2017 10:57 pm : link
You can't realistically expect any young kid to be better than him next year. It would be a very unfair expectation. Look eli is, and should be, the qb next year.
Hassan  
jtgiants : 11/25/2017 10:58 pm : link
In the playoff game he was great. Not good. Eli can still play at a high level when it matters most. If not here elsewhere
IIT  
hassan : 11/25/2017 10:58 pm : link
So the Giants have to give him a good line and a good run game and two good receivers. Even Blake bottles is winning with that formula.

And when does that happen? In one off-season or two?

He's going to get one more chance. IF the Giants can clean house and bounce back so well they address deficiencies they haven't in 4-6 years then yes. Reese has neglected backs and line so possible. But it's one last hurrah and a lot has to go right.
I won't deny  
hassan : 11/25/2017 11:02 pm : link
Yes he played well. Great? I do think he was clutch and he has the special something in big moments.

But that is the fallacy. He is still capable of good games. But his clunkers were always bad and now we get more of them.

There are 2 Eli Groups......  
Doomster : 11/25/2017 11:02 pm : link
1. Eli sucks and should be replaced.....

2. Eli has not had the weapons, does not have an OL, no running game, and a HC, that tried to make him something he wasn't.....and to somehow judge him, based on what he has been surrounded with, is not fair....

Would a guy like Dak, be better in this offense? I think yes....he would certainly be more mobile.....I think his accuracy would be better on 5 yard passes....but with no running game and no WR's, he would have trouble sustaining drives and throwing long....

So how do you judge Eli the last two seasons? No OL in front of him, either a pressure, or a penalty, or inability to block for one freakin' yard.....No TE last year...this year a guy with a lot of potential and a lot of drops.....RB's that would be backups on other teams, not starters....

Let's look at wr's the past two years....

IN 2016, he had OBj, SS, and Cruz.....OBj is OBj....SS was a rookie, and had some big drops.....Cruz was a complete bust that replaced a bust in Randle from the previous season...

In 2017, an injured OBj....Marshall, a total bust....SS, could not stay on the field......

Both years he had jags named King and Lewis....

Eli is more accurate throwing 30 yards than throwing 5 yards....but this is the kind of offense Mac has strapped him with.....

Has Eli developed happy feet after 6 years of frustration behind this OL? Absolutely, not to the point where he has Carr-itis, but if he had a solid line in front of him, I feel he would have more confidence....

Does Eli still have zip? Yes, when he can step into the throw.....but when he can't, there are some dying quails sent out there....

So either Eli plain sucks, or he has not been put in a position to win.....I go with the latter....

The only kind of love...  
Milton : 11/25/2017 11:03 pm : link
...is stone blind love.
If you get far enough away you'll be on your way back home... - ( New Window )
Jt  
hassan : 11/25/2017 11:08 pm : link
Why? Watson is certainly better. Would a mayfield or a Rosen not be better ? We don't know. I'm assuming the Giants take a top flight prospect and certainly may be better than 2018 Eli.
Hassan  
jtgiants : 11/25/2017 11:09 pm : link
Well see what happens. I have spoken my peace and believe eli is the qb next year. Well see what happens.
I'm a watson  
jtgiants : 11/25/2017 11:12 pm : link
Fan but lets not say he's better off 5 or 6 games. He also got hurt already which is something eli never does. Rosen is a big injury risk. I think Darnold is going to be great but needs a year. I stand by my assessment. Elis not the issue. I spoke my piece. I think I'm right. I think the giants agree. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. Well see.
Doomster  
hassan : 11/25/2017 11:15 pm : link
I would disagree. He does not plain suck. He has regressed significantly. There is a grey.

His line blew chunks in 2011 and his run game did too. He was studly. And Giants had Cruz and nicks, but Beckham is so much better than either even Shepard as his sidekick last year was a better pairing. He is not that guy.

It can be argued the malaise reese afflicted this team with started before 2012 but Giant stars could lift team enough. That 2011 team was not a great team.

Well  
hassan : 11/25/2017 11:16 pm : link
I did not say he was better than Eli for his career. We can agree to disagree but 2017 Watson is significantly better than 17 Eli.
RE: There are 2 Eli Groups......  
richinpa : 11/25/2017 11:17 pm : link
In comment 13705262 Doomster said:
Quote:
1. Eli sucks and should be replaced.....

2. Eli has not had the weapons, does not have an OL, no running game, and a HC, that tried to make him something he wasn't.....and to somehow judge him, based on what he has been surrounded with, is not fair....

Would a guy like Dak, be better in this offense? I think yes....he would certainly be more mobile.....I think his accuracy would be better on 5 yard passes....but with no running game and no WR's, he would have trouble sustaining drives and throwing long....

So how do you judge Eli the last two seasons? No OL in front of him, either a pressure, or a penalty, or inability to block for one freakin' yard.....No TE last year...this year a guy with a lot of potential and a lot of drops.....RB's that would be backups on other teams, not starters....

Let's look at wr's the past two years....

IN 2016, he had OBj, SS, and Cruz.....OBj is OBj....SS was a rookie, and had some big drops.....Cruz was a complete bust that replaced a bust in Randle from the previous season...

In 2017, an injured OBj....Marshall, a total bust....SS, could not stay on the field......

Both years he had jags named King and Lewis....

Eli is more accurate throwing 30 yards than throwing 5 yards....but this is the kind of offense Mac has strapped him with.....

Has Eli developed happy feet after 6 years of frustration behind this OL? Absolutely, not to the point where he has Carr-itis, but if he had a solid line in front of him, I feel he would have more confidence....

Does Eli still have zip? Yes, when he can step into the throw.....but when he can't, there are some dying quails sent out there....

So either Eli plain sucks, or he has not been put in a position to win.....I go with the latter....




I think you are missing a third group.

That looks at this objectively from a pure VALUE perspective

Is Eli worth the $$$ we pay him for any scenario of #1 or #2 versus other QBs in the league and what we could get instead?


Would you pick up Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins for the same $$$ amount starting next season with the same team Eli has ?

I would. I would jettison him out of here tomorrow for either of those 2 QBs because they are simply BETTER than him right now and will be moving forward.

If you Give Eli a very good OL and running game he will be good again. BUT give that to any top QB and they will be good if not great. Add some mobility and ability to actually hit WRs on the run and I think you have your answer.

We are stuck with Eli unfortunately unless there is a miracle trade or he decides to leave.

No blind love here. Just reality of what makes business sense


He is not worth the salary compared to other QBs in the leauge whether they are put in the same situation or not.
Durability  
hassan : 11/25/2017 11:19 pm : link
Notwithstanding..........by the way I do think they plan on starting him next year. But I don't think they have a desire to let him start more than next year short of a surprising season.
RE: Bigbluehoya  
bigbluehoya : 11/25/2017 11:22 pm : link
In comment 13705251 jtgiants said:
Quote:
This is a year to year league. The giants won 11 games last year. Now they suck. That's because they have been ravaged by injuries. Don't get me wrong. That's not the only season but whatever could go wrong did. My point. The giants are going to expect to win next year not rebuild. Eli is there best chance to do that. It doesn't mean you don't take a (Fat old) as an example. It just means you try to win next year and that is the mindset to take imo.


Well, you seem to be predicting what they “will” do. Based on your posting history, l’ll certainty concede that you’re probably more in touch with that.

I do still stand by my take of what their approach should be, which is not to say that they should throw away next year.
Being a fan of the whole team concept  
idiotsavant : 11/25/2017 11:25 pm : link
I'd like to see them fix the whole team, rationalize it, before focussing on what is often the most expensive hard to find and singular piece a piece the cost of which could blow up project A. Or dilute staff and scouts thought process and time.


Than fit in a rookie or existing roster player at the position to that rationalised team.

If that means old man Manning takes a beating for another year or two, so be it.

Is that Manning blind love? I think not. It's common sense.

Eli looked plenty sharp in the playoff game vs Green Bay  
Milton : 11/25/2017 11:29 pm : link
And it wasn't exactly ideal weather conditions.
RE: Not wanting to see Geno Smith or Davis Webb  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/25/2017 11:53 pm : link
In comment 13705215 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
hardly equates to blind love. I'm willing to bet most of Eli's ardent supporters would have no problem with the Giants taking a QB in the first round and handing the reins over to him over the following year or so.


Of course not. I respect him abd willing to absolve him some. And sure he been bad to shitty at times. But when you are a pocket QB as your GM insists on drafting twice as many defensive linemen and DBs as he's grabbed as offensive line men while your OL sucks for years it's an issue They also have no problem spending more FA dollars on those positions when they missed.

The last really big OL FA they grabbed was McKenzie. Please don't tell me Baas or Schwartz were anywhere near his level. Not bad guys but certainly not anything close to Jenkins Rolle. DRC. Snacks and Vernon.

Never mind the parade of mediocrity of RBs since Bradshaw fell apart.

So. You have a pocket guy with a bad OL and shitty running game. Reese does love WRs. But a guy w very limited mobile needs more than great WRs to really be successful. Especially as he gets older.

So it's not love. It's respect for his past achievements and the ineptness of the team to put people around him who make sense with skill set.

Alex Smith in Giants stadium...  
JCin332 : 11/25/2017 11:56 pm : link
lol we just saw what a shit show that would be last week...
If Eli was behind any line  
ThatLimerickGuy : 11/26/2017 12:02 am : link
In the NFL other than the Giants and the Seahawks then he would be a borderline top 10 qb. He also literally has street free agents at WR and a Rookie TE.

The issue with Eli is not his current ability but the future of the franchise. The Giants arent one of the usual suspect teams that live in the top 5 of the draft, so with a 37 year old QB and a good QB class you find your guy and you go get him.

What would say....Drew Brees look like with the Giants offensive personel? What about a guy like Derek Carr or even Big Ben.

I think that a lot of people have really short memories and are going to be dreaming of a qb with as much talent as 2017 Eli in about 4-5 years from now. Right around the time that the best offensive player to ever wear Giants blue by far gets his yellow jacket.
Bigbluehoya  
jtgiants : 11/26/2017 12:03 am : link
Fair enough. Its ok to disagree. We all want the same thing.
It is a year to year league  
Bleedblue10 : 11/26/2017 1:01 am : link
But winning 11 games made sure we didn’t have a chance to choose Eli’s replacement(at least until they took Webb in the 3rd but he’s a project) If Watson or Mahomes were available at 23 who’s to say we wouldn’t have taken one of them. I read that we loved Mahomes and wanted to pick him if we had the opportunity. I don’t think last off season it was as clear to everyone as it is now that the time is coming to find that person. Point is I think they started looking for Eli’s replacement last season but the chips fell where they did(which the giants were fine with) Now that we’re on our way to having a potential top 5 pick, they k is the time is now
Stupid thread  
baadbill : 11/26/2017 2:00 am : link
Unless OP thinks there is currently a better QB on the roster. If so, then I'll just say "whoa" and back away very slowly and carefully.
If you want to see love for Eli  
JohnB : 11/26/2017 4:07 am : link
Wait until he is gone. People don't understand what they have until it is no longer there and then they begin to see how good they had it.

I will be happy if the Giants get another QB that is 1/2 the QB Eli is, for so long. I understand he is on the back side of his career but it has been an amazing run.
People love him ...  
FStubbs : 11/26/2017 6:25 am : link
... because he helped this team win 2 rings - and literally carried this team to the 2nd one.

But he's near the end of the road - even if you believe he still has a little left in the tank.

It would be football malfeasance if there is a franchise QB available in this draft where the Giants pick and the Giants don't draft him.
RE: People love him ...  
Milton : 11/26/2017 6:38 am : link
In comment 13705326 FStubbs said:
Quote:

It would be football malfeasance if there is a franchise QB available in this draft where the Giants pick and the Giants don't draft him.
This is the bottomline. It's all about the evaluation. If there is a QB worth the value of the Giants pick, they will select him.
I have not seen a single person here...  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 6:52 am : link
actively advocating to not pick a QB in the first round if there is one they covet available.
The downturn for Eli really began when Coughlin left..  
Sean : 11/26/2017 7:01 am : link
Ah the irony. McAdoo was kept for Eli, yet the McAdoo system does not fit his game.
RE: The downturn for Eli really began when Coughlin left..  
FStubbs : 11/26/2017 7:05 am : link
In comment 13705332 Sean said:
Quote:
Ah the irony. McAdoo was kept for Eli, yet the McAdoo system does not fit his game.


Indeed.

And this will be the first offseason, Reese/Ross/Mara or not (hopefully not), where the Giants team plan can no longer be the Eli plan.
I don't want a QB that I covet 4th best if  
Jimmy Googs : 11/26/2017 7:06 am : link
the O-lineman or athletic pass-rushing LB that I covet 1st is still on the board.

That decision could be made even easier if this moronic coaching staff would give Webb snaps. That way I could determine he is serviceable with the help of a different veteran QB next year (not Eli) to gt thru the season.
Don t think Eli  
joeinpa : 11/26/2017 7:40 am : link
Is done. But I also believe there are quarterbacks playing better with equally bad offensive lines.

Also believe Giants should try to find next franchise quarterback if they are in position to do so at draft time
Agree  
jeff57 : 11/26/2017 7:47 am : link
Living in the past is no way to win in the future.
The situation Eli is in  
Sy'56 : 11/26/2017 7:48 am : link
is either the worst, or 2nd worst in the league.

He has had more passes dropped than any QB in the NFL, his OL has been a bottom 5 unit, and his top 3 WRs have all missed the majority of the season.

Find a QB situation in the league worse than that.
RE: There are 2 Eli Groups......  
micky : 11/26/2017 8:24 am : link
In comment 13705262 Doomster said:
Quote:
1. Eli sucks and should be replaced.....

2. Eli has not had the weapons, does not have an OL, no running game, and a HC, that tried to make him something he wasn't.....and to somehow judge him, based on what he has been surrounded with, is not fair....

Would a guy like Dak, be better in this offense? I think yes....he would certainly be more mobile.....I think his accuracy would be better on 5 yard passes....but with no running game and no WR's, he would have trouble sustaining drives and throwing long....

So how do you judge Eli the last two seasons? No OL in front of him, either a pressure, or a penalty, or inability to block for one freakin' yard.....No TE last year...this year a guy with a lot of potential and a lot of drops.....RB's that would be backups on other teams, not starters....

Let's look at wr's the past two years....

IN 2016, he had OBj, SS, and Cruz.....OBj is OBj....SS was a rookie, and had some big drops.....Cruz was a complete bust that replaced a bust in Randle from the previous season...

In 2017, an injured OBj....Marshall, a total bust....SS, could not stay on the field......

Both years he had jags named King and Lewis....

Eli is more accurate throwing 30 yards than throwing 5 yards....but this is the kind of offense Mac has strapped him with.....

Has Eli developed happy feet after 6 years of frustration behind this OL? Absolutely, not to the point where he has Carr-itis, but if he had a solid line in front of him, I feel he would have more confidence....

Does Eli still have zip? Yes, when he can step into the throw.....but when he can't, there are some dying quails sent out there....

So either Eli plain sucks, or he has not been put in a position to win.....I go with the latter....



#2 are excuses..then if so good, why does Brady not skip a beat at even an older age and all??
Is that a serious question Micky...?  
JCin332 : 11/26/2017 8:31 am : link
The Patriots and BB have done a much better job at keeping Brady surrounded with better talent especially OL...

Brady wouldn't be successful here with this system and talent either...

And before anyone gets into a tither I am not saying Eli is better than Tom...
Eli has no pieces in front of him  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 11/26/2017 8:39 am : link
But he also has played down to their level and missed a ton of passes ...

Even though it’s not really his job, he hasn’t elevated the play of anyone of these guys.

It’s time to move on, let the new GM and HC make the call.
Eli  
bc4life : 11/26/2017 9:05 am : link
2-3 good years left. He's not that mobile, so you have to have at least a respectable running game - Giants have been in bottom of league in rushing for past few seasons.

You have to fix the OLine.
RE: Eli  
Sammo85 : 11/26/2017 9:35 am : link
In comment 13705401 bc4life said:
Quote:
2-3 good years left. He's not that mobile, so you have to have at least a respectable running game - Giants have been in bottom of league in rushing for past few seasons.

You have to fix the OLine.


You’re not fixing it for Eli. You’re building it for the next QB. There’s no salvaging one more run with Eli. We had our shot these last 3 or so years and blew it.
RE: Eli has no pieces in front of him  
Sammo85 : 11/26/2017 9:39 am : link
In comment 13705383 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:
Quote:
But he also has played down to their level and missed a ton of passes ...

Even though it’s not really his job, he hasn’t elevated the play of anyone of these guys.

It’s time to move on, let the new GM and HC make the call.


He makes 20m per year and plays the most important position on offense. It absolutely is his job. He’s no longer an elite QB who is capable of carrying a team on his back. We’ve known this for a long time.
Look at the other 3 QBs in the division NYG07.  
Powerclean765 : 11/26/2017 9:53 am : link
Prescott playing behind the best OLine in football. Very good system with Scott Linehan.

Wentz might be playing behind the 2nd best OL in football. Good, proven WCO with Doug Peterson and Frank Reich.

Cousins has talent all around him, and, again, a very good offensive coach in Jay Gruden. And did he impress you vs. the Giants?

A lot goes into the QB's ultimate QBR. My question is - how would Prescott, Wentz and Cousins score playing with our #4-#8 WRs, within McAdoo's offense, with Flowers and whichever incompetent or inexperienced boob we've got at OT?

They wouldn't do jack squat. They'd all look terrible. I can't stress this enough: Ben McAdoo and Mike Sullivan are incompetent. It ends there.
Are you serious?  
Doomster : 11/26/2017 10:10 am : link
RE: There are 2 Eli Groups......
micky : 8:24 am : link : reply
#2 are excuses..then if so good, why does Brady not skip a beat at even an older age and all??

You are trying to compare the Manning/Mac situation to Brady/BB? Seriously?
RE: RE: There are 2 Eli Groups......  
japanhead : 11/26/2017 10:10 am : link
In comment 13705277 richinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 13705262 Doomster said:


Quote:


1. Eli sucks and should be replaced.....

2. Eli has not had the weapons, does not have an OL, no running game, and a HC, that tried to make him something he wasn't.....and to somehow judge him, based on what he has been surrounded with, is not fair....

Would a guy like Dak, be better in this offense? I think yes....he would certainly be more mobile.....I think his accuracy would be better on 5 yard passes....but with no running game and no WR's, he would have trouble sustaining drives and throwing long....

So how do you judge Eli the last two seasons? No OL in front of him, either a pressure, or a penalty, or inability to block for one freakin' yard.....No TE last year...this year a guy with a lot of potential and a lot of drops.....RB's that would be backups on other teams, not starters....

Let's look at wr's the past two years....

IN 2016, he had OBj, SS, and Cruz.....OBj is OBj....SS was a rookie, and had some big drops.....Cruz was a complete bust that replaced a bust in Randle from the previous season...

In 2017, an injured OBj....Marshall, a total bust....SS, could not stay on the field......

Both years he had jags named King and Lewis....

Eli is more accurate throwing 30 yards than throwing 5 yards....but this is the kind of offense Mac has strapped him with.....

Has Eli developed happy feet after 6 years of frustration behind this OL? Absolutely, not to the point where he has Carr-itis, but if he had a solid line in front of him, I feel he would have more confidence....

Does Eli still have zip? Yes, when he can step into the throw.....but when he can't, there are some dying quails sent out there....

So either Eli plain sucks, or he has not been put in a position to win.....I go with the latter....






I think you are missing a third group.

That looks at this objectively from a pure VALUE perspective

Is Eli worth the $$$ we pay him for any scenario of #1 or #2 versus other QBs in the league and what we could get instead?


Would you pick up Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins for the same $$$ amount starting next season with the same team Eli has ?

I would. I would jettison him out of here tomorrow for either of those 2 QBs because they are simply BETTER than him right now and will be moving forward.

If you Give Eli a very good OL and running game he will be good again. BUT give that to any top QB and they will be good if not great. Add some mobility and ability to actually hit WRs on the run and I think you have your answer.

We are stuck with Eli unfortunately unless there is a miracle trade or he decides to leave.

No blind love here. Just reality of what makes business sense


He is not worth the salary compared to other QBs in the leauge whether they are put in the same situation or not.


you would take alex smith over eli manning? the alex smith who looked like garbage losing against the giants, and who has lost 4 of his last 5, with QB guru andy reid as his coach? alex smith is garbage and has never won anything. sure he can buy you a few first downs a game with his legs. but that you would take smith over manning is ridiculous.
I don't understand  
Jay on the Island : 11/26/2017 10:11 am : link
why people fail to realize Eli is playing in a predictable scheme that is a poor fit for his skill set. Also his top receivers for much of the season has been King and Lewis Jr. not to mention the offensive line has once again played poorly.
I would question the blind hate of Eli 2017,  
Shirk130 : 11/26/2017 10:15 am : link
no offensive line, no receivers, no running game, so let's blame it on the one good player we have out there. Makes no sense. If he played this poorly and was getting help, I'd agree it was time to move on. Until that time, get off his back and fix the rest of this shit show before replacing a 2 time super bowl MVP with another of Jerry's failed third round picks. Of course, even with all that, the Giants need to turn this crappy season into a blip of a year in which we picked high enough to grab the next franchise QB and pray he's as good as Eli.
We are out of the playoffs this year  
Rudy5757 : 11/26/2017 10:33 am : link
If the Giants do not play Webb at least in the 2nd half of games it is a disservice to this team. The only way for a QB to get better is to get snaps. I would say start him but I know the Giants wont do that because of Eli's streak.

I don't give a crap about Geno Smith, put him in the 3rd QB slot and let him sit. It's time to see if we have some talent at the QB spot or if we need to again draft Eli's replacement. This isn't about Eli for me, it's about evaluating the position. Eli is at the end, we won't see another 2011 from him. He can still win some games in the right situation but he is not the right QB for this team as it presently sits.

Play Eli the 1st half and play Webb the 2nd half. The season is done. He was a 3rd rounder, if he doesn't get snaps this year its just plain stupid on the part of this team as a whole from the Owners to the GM to the coach. Even if we draft a franchise QB next season at least we have some knowledge of what we have in Webb and maybe, just maybe he shows enough that someone is willing to give up a pick for him at some point if he is not our guy.
RE: There are 2 Eli Groups......  
gmen4ever : 11/26/2017 10:41 am : link
In comment 13705262 Doomster said:
Quote:
1. Eli sucks and should be replaced.....

2. Eli has not had the weapons, does not have an OL, no running game, and a HC, that tried to make him something he wasn't.....and to somehow judge him, based on what he has been surrounded with, is not fair....

Would a guy like Dak, be better in this offense? I think yes....he would certainly be more mobile.....I think his accuracy would be better on 5 yard passes....but with no running game and no WR's, he would have trouble sustaining drives and throwing long....

So how do you judge Eli the last two seasons? No OL in front of him, either a pressure, or a penalty, or inability to block for one freakin' yard.....No TE last year...this year a guy with a lot of potential and a lot of drops.....RB's that would be backups on other teams, not starters....

Let's look at wr's the past two years....

IN 2016, he had OBj, SS, and Cruz.....OBj is OBj....SS was a rookie, and had some big drops.....Cruz was a complete bust that replaced a bust in Randle from the previous season...

In 2017, an injured OBj....Marshall, a total bust....SS, could not stay on the field......

Both years he had jags named King and Lewis....

Eli is more accurate throwing 30 yards than throwing 5 yards....but this is the kind of offense Mac has strapped him with.....

Has Eli developed happy feet after 6 years of frustration behind this OL? Absolutely, not to the point where he has Carr-itis, but if he had a solid line in front of him, I feel he would have more confidence....

Does Eli still have zip? Yes, when he can step into the throw.....but when he can't, there are some dying quails sent out there....

So either Eli plain sucks, or he has not been put in a position to win.....I go with the latter....

+1. I would add though when Eli does make bone head plays, I sure as hell am pissed at him! But give him some weapons and he can be very good still for another year or 2.
Again, the entire Manning subject is pretty dumb...  
baadbill : 11/26/2017 10:42 am : link
Whether Manning sucks or is a seasoned pro, the end result is the same: the Giants should have a top 5 pick in the next draft and need to select Manning's replacement.

Whether Manning has played his last year as a Giant - or plays 1-3 more years - is probably pretty irrelevant since the odds of the Giants winning a SB before Manning retires seem pretty damn remote at this point.
The newb logic of blaming eli  
idiotsavant : 11/26/2017 10:46 am : link
Seems like actually a back door way of prioritising QB early in the draft...looking for an easy out. Which is actually more QB centric, not less.

So, whereas the Manning defenders may seem QB centric to non football fans, the idea of going 'talent' once again, in round one, which has been the elephant in the room of our organisational blindness, is what scares the old farts.

Because, we have seen, super obviously -- this staff cannot manage to put together a solid base roster after spending round one on "skills positions" (skinny people in football terms) most years.
I'm not saying that you don't pick or acquire a blue chip  
gidiefor : Mod : 11/26/2017 10:48 am : link
QB in the draft next year -- but count me in the school that thinks that 2017 Eli Manning is still a pretty damn good QB and that he has not had a complementary team around him. He is head and shoulders better than most (I'll go as far as saying 90%) of the QBs in the NFL - and certainly better than Geno Smith by a mile or more -- Davis Webb being a WiP
we can still win ugly with a declining Eli  
mdc1 : 11/26/2017 10:58 am : link
but not with the surrounding cast that Reese built, specifically this atrocious oline. Amazing how many folks on this board are in denial, after watching the new improved oline get beat on the edges on thurs. How much more do we need to see? good grief. Time to rebuild the offense around a "few players". The question remains, is it time to start with a new QB while we do it if a new coach is brought in. Eli is blazing the path of his brother, the end.
Two rings, class, good human.  
GiantsUA : 11/26/2017 11:04 am : link
Never count Eli out!
Too many of you  
djstat : 11/26/2017 12:44 pm : link
Just do not understand football. Eli can be successful. He still has the arm, knows how to run an offense and can manage a game. However he needs time to throw the freaking ball. He is constantly hurried, that when he has time he is looking for the rush. His receiving corp has been decimated. NOw his receivers drop passes. Engram leads the league in drops. Lewis drops passes, King as well etc.

The offensive line is jacked up that's why this offense sucks. I blame the GM for bad player development/drafting/free agents and I blame the coaches for a piss poor job of coaching up the OL.
RE: If you want to see love for Eli  
NYG07 : 11/26/2017 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13705316 JohnB said:
Quote:
Wait until he is gone. People don't understand what they have until it is no longer there and then they begin to see how good they had it.

I will be happy if the Giants get another QB that is 1/2 the QB Eli is, for so long. I understand he is on the back side of his career but it has been an amazing run.


He already is gone John. That is my point. The great top 10 QB we loved that won two superbowls no longer lines up under center for the Giants. If he needs everything around him to be perfect, then he will never again have success on this team. This mess will not be fixed before he completely falls off a cliff.

If he is willing to take a pay cut to stay on the roster next year, I am ok with that. But if he is given all of the 1st team reps in training camp and named starter by default over the inevitable 1st round QB or Webb simply because his name is Eli Manning, then I have a big problem with that.
One fact.  
Red Dog : 11/26/2017 12:51 pm : link
They don't have anybody who can play QB as well as Manning, and they won't likely have anybody who can play QB as well as Manning next year. Two years out? Maybe, but even then the odds aren't great.

And the later part of Manning's career has been totally wasted by the total incompetence of Reese, Ross, and McAdoo.
RE: RE: If you want to see love for Eli  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 4:30 pm : link
In comment 13705571 NYG07 said:
Quote:
In comment 13705316 JohnB said:


Quote:


Wait until he is gone. People don't understand what they have until it is no longer there and then they begin to see how good they had it.

I will be happy if the Giants get another QB that is 1/2 the QB Eli is, for so long. I understand he is on the back side of his career but it has been an amazing run.



He already is gone John. That is my point. The great top 10 QB we loved that won two superbowls no longer lines up under center for the Giants. If he needs everything around him to be perfect, then he will never again have success on this team. This mess will not be fixed before he completely falls off a cliff.

If he is willing to take a pay cut to stay on the roster next year, I am ok with that. But if he is given all of the 1st team reps in training camp and named starter by default over the inevitable 1st round QB or Webb simply because his name is Eli Manning, then I have a big problem with that.


Well, you better prepare yourself to have a problem because that's exactly how it's going to go down. Book it.

Oh, and he's not taking a pay cut, either.
I love Eli more than any athlete ever..  
Sean : 11/26/2017 4:44 pm : link
But the whole ‘you won’t appreciate him until he’s gone’ doesn’t resonate with me and is over stated.

1. The offense stinks. This is a historically bad offense. How much worse can it get.

2. The OP is correct in that the 16/17 version of Eli is a far cry from what we have been used to. I’d argue we are already experiencing shitty offensive football.

3. The reason for the offensive incompetence the last 2 years can be debated, I’d argue it’s a bit of everything- scheme, performance & personnel.

Bottom line, there is nothing I’ll ‘miss’ about this offense the last few years.
RE: RE: RE: If you want to see love for Eli  
NYG07 : 11/26/2017 5:45 pm : link
In comment 13705772 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13705571 NYG07 said:


Quote:


In comment 13705316 JohnB said:


Quote:


Wait until he is gone. People don't understand what they have until it is no longer there and then they begin to see how good they had it.

I will be happy if the Giants get another QB that is 1/2 the QB Eli is, for so long. I understand he is on the back side of his career but it has been an amazing run.



He already is gone John. That is my point. The great top 10 QB we loved that won two superbowls no longer lines up under center for the Giants. If he needs everything around him to be perfect, then he will never again have success on this team. This mess will not be fixed before he completely falls off a cliff.

If he is willing to take a pay cut to stay on the roster next year, I am ok with that. But if he is given all of the 1st team reps in training camp and named starter by default over the inevitable 1st round QB or Webb simply because his name is Eli Manning, then I have a big problem with that.



Well, you better prepare yourself to have a problem because that's exactly how it's going to go down. Book it.

Oh, and he's not taking a pay cut, either.


Britt, you are an excellent poster on this site, and I respect your opinion, but you continue to spew that no matter what Eli will be the starter in 2018. You don't know that. A major house cleaning is coming, how do you have any idea how the new GM and coach will feel about Eli?

They tried to trade up for Mahomes last year and drafted Webb. Mara gave the directive to heavily scout the top QBs coming out this year. Eli has been a bottom third QB since the start of 2016.

If the new management team magically improves the oline and replaces Marshall with a competent #2 receiver, and Eli somehow miraculously reverts back to even 2015 form, I will gladly admit I was wrong. But stop acting like he is a victim.
RE: I would question the blind hate of Eli 2017,  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 11/26/2017 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13705466 Shirk130 said:
Quote:
no offensive line, no receivers, no running game, so let's blame it on the one good player we have out there. Makes no sense. If he played this poorly and was getting help, I'd agree it was time to move on. Until that time, get off his back and fix the rest of this shit show before replacing a 2 time super bowl MVP with another of Jerry's failed third round picks. Of course, even with all that, the Giants need to turn this crappy season into a blip of a year in which we picked high enough to grab the next franchise QB and pray he's as good as Eli.



We were what 0-4 before all the WR’s got hurt ...
Essentially the Eli Brigade believes...  
bw in dc : 11/26/2017 6:15 pm : link
this:

Eli is just a great oline, great wide receivers, great tight ends, great running backs, great defense, great special teams, great coaching, etc from returning the Jints to prominence.

That's not too much to ask...
RE: Essentially the Eli Brigade believes...  
JCin332 : 11/26/2017 6:35 pm : link
In comment 13705864 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this:

Eli is just a great oline, great wide receivers, great tight ends, great running backs, great defense, great special teams, great coaching, etc from returning the Jints to prominence.

That's not too much to ask...


Wow a boob of Les like proportions...
rooting  
Simms : 11/26/2017 6:40 pm : link
I always respected Cubs fans because they never lost faith.

Rooted hard for Patterson Plank Joe, and a host of others, Simms after getting past his injury woes followed by others, and Eli too.

Point being ROOT for the guy you leads you. In time hoe matter who that is another will follow. But diamonds in the rough are hard to find, and as the Payton Manning and Ryan Leaf draft has showed nothing is a lock. As we have also witnessed other QB's drafted to implode.

Those who are real fans and post their hatred of Eli is a head scratcher to a degree. Anyone knows anything about football realizes the talent level around him has been suspect at best for a while. Yes he on a decline, but Marino, Aikman, and Bradshaw fans never through their own under the bus like some have like Eli.

In my opinion root for your guys no matter the level of our monday morning second guessing ability affords us.

I remember when we when were in the early 70's many people jumped ship to the Cowboys, and Jet fans soon leaped to the Niners. So again LEAVE already your complaining about Eli is a drone that reminds real fans of jets fans.



RE: rooting  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 6:50 pm : link
In comment 13705893 Simms said:
Quote:
I always respected Cubs fans because they never lost faith.

Rooted hard for Patterson Plank Joe, and a host of others, Simms after getting past his injury woes followed by others, and Eli too.

Point being ROOT for the guy you leads you. In time hoe matter who that is another will follow. But diamonds in the rough are hard to find, and as the Payton Manning and Ryan Leaf draft has showed nothing is a lock. As we have also witnessed other QB's drafted to implode.

Those who are real fans and post their hatred of Eli is a head scratcher to a degree. Anyone knows anything about football realizes the talent level around him has been suspect at best for a while. Yes he on a decline, but Marino, Aikman, and Bradshaw fans never through their own under the bus like some have like Eli.

In my opinion root for your guys no matter the level of our monday morning second guessing ability affords us.

I remember when we when were in the early 70's many people jumped ship to the Cowboys, and Jet fans soon leaped to the Niners. So again LEAVE already your complaining about Eli is a drone that reminds real fans of jets fans.




Amen.
RE: rooting  
NYG07 : 11/26/2017 7:15 pm : link
In comment 13705893 Simms said:
Quote:
I always respected Cubs fans because they never lost faith.

Rooted hard for Patterson Plank Joe, and a host of others, Simms after getting past his injury woes followed by others, and Eli too.

Point being ROOT for the guy you leads you. In time hoe matter who that is another will follow. But diamonds in the rough are hard to find, and as the Payton Manning and Ryan Leaf draft has showed nothing is a lock. As we have also witnessed other QB's drafted to implode.

Those who are real fans and post their hatred of Eli is a head scratcher to a degree. Anyone knows anything about football realizes the talent level around him has been suspect at best for a while. Yes he on a decline, but Marino, Aikman, and Bradshaw fans never through their own under the bus like some have like Eli.

In my opinion root for your guys no matter the level of our monday morning second guessing ability affords us.

I remember when we when were in the early 70's many people jumped ship to the Cowboys, and Jet fans soon leaped to the Niners. So again LEAVE already your complaining about Eli is a drone that reminds real fans of jets fans.




Lmao. This post is pure nonsense. It is becoming very apparent to me that the age gap is the breaking point in this discussion. So I should be proud of this shitty version of Eli because he wears a giants uniform? It is just laughable.

He is no longer a good quarterback. Replacing him is just good business.
Replacing him is fine...  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:23 pm : link
replacing him and spitting on him as he's shown the door is another.

It's called class, and something that a lot of BBI'ers lack when talking about an all time great.
Out of curiosity, NYG07, how old are you?  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:24 pm : link
Since you brought up the age gap and all...
The first 5 games of the year everyone  
Thunderstruck27 : 11/26/2017 7:34 pm : link
thought we had the most talent in the NFL around Eli and he still stunk.
Eli's last chance at being an Elite QB walked out the door with Gillbride's and Coughlin's offense. It was tailor made for Eli.
The argument could be made then he didn't have surrounding talent. Not now.
RE: Replacing him is fine...  
Sean : 11/26/2017 7:34 pm : link
In comment 13705925 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
replacing him and spitting on him as he's shown the door is another.

It's called class, and something that a lot of BBI'ers lack when talking about an all time great.


He deserves a ton of class. So does Coughlin. Believe it or not, Jerry Reese does too.
I got nothing against Reese other than his failure to build an O-line  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:36 pm : link
going on 7 years.

Other than that, I appreciate everything he's done and he gets credit for the Superbowl teams that he was a part of.
RE: Replacing him is fine...  
baadbill : 11/26/2017 7:37 pm : link
In comment 13705925 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
replacing him and spitting on him as he's shown the door is another.

It's called class, and something that a lot of BBI'ers lack when talking about an all time great.


There's a real sense of animosity - as though they hate him. As it was with Simms and LT, the day Manning leaves the field for the last time will be a sad day for me.
RE: The first 5 games of the year everyone  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:38 pm : link
In comment 13705937 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
thought we had the most talent in the NFL around Eli and he still stunk.
Eli's last chance at being an Elite QB walked out the door with Gillbride's and Coughlin's offense. It was tailor made for Eli.
The argument could be made then he didn't have surrounding talent. Not now.


Those people were blinded by the record, and did not acknowledge the offense's failure to score 20 points over the course of the last six games of the season last year, and were blinded by the 11-5 record.

Beckham is Beckham.
Marshall was a joke who never showed up.
Sheppard was overrated.

No line.
Horrible running game continued.

Fool's gold. Sorry you fell for it.
Yep its fucking weird...  
JCin332 : 11/26/2017 7:40 pm : link
Like they think great QB's grow on trees...

And Giant fans like to think we are superior to Eagles fans...
RE: RE: The first 5 games of the year everyone  
BigBlueShock : 11/26/2017 7:51 pm : link
In comment 13705943 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13705937 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


thought we had the most talent in the NFL around Eli and he still stunk.
Eli's last chance at being an Elite QB walked out the door with Gillbride's and Coughlin's offense. It was tailor made for Eli.
The argument could be made then he didn't have surrounding talent. Not now.



Those people were blinded by the record, and did not acknowledge the offense's failure to score 20 points over the course of the last six games of the season last year, and were blinded by the 11-5 record.

Beckham is Beckham.
Marshall was a joke who never showed up.
Sheppard was overrated.

No line.
Horrible running game continued.

Fool's gold. Sorry you fell for it.

So no mention of the QB play? Everything sucks but Eli. For fucks sake man. It’s bad enough that you CONTINUE to put words in people’s mouths and constantly resort to false narratives that people that don’t think Eli is the same QB anymore are somehow spitting on him or Eli haters, but your absolute refusal to pin ANYTHING on him is at this point simply asinine. You’re not doing yourself any favors on these Eli threads. Everyone here knows your stance. So what’s the point of this all? You think Eli is going to find you and offer to marry you because you’re trying too hard to be his biggest defender?

Eh, screw it. Please continue to accuse everyone of saying things that aren’t there if it gets you through the day. Hope Eli looks you up some day...
NYG's failure to answer his age question makes me suspect he's under  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:52 pm : link
30. Which is fine.... But it leads me to my next point. Perspective. Do you know a Giants team without Eli Manning, or did you start following the Giants either when he was drafted or after?

I'm 41. I was 14 when the Giants won the Superbowl in 1990. I got hooked in 86, but was only 10 and didn't really understand the way I did at 14. I thought I knew it all, and even moreso into my 20's. But 17 years came and went, and it wasn't until 2007 II was 30) when it all came into the picture for me. 17 years between 1990 and 2007 was a long, long time. You learn to appreciate what you have a little more. You learn to appreciate players like Simms, even though at the time you when you were younger you might have thought it was a good business decision to go with the younger Graham and Brown. But then you sat through the Grahams, Browns, and Kannells, then you thought you had something in Kerry Collins, who seemed great but wasn't really, you just hadn't seen a real QB in almost a decade. Then comes Manning. And he brings you to the promised land. Then, four years later, he does it again. And then he struggles... But you remember. You remember those 17 years, the Grahams, the Browns, the Kannells, Kerry Collins.... And then you think about what an amazing two Superbowls were like with all that perspective that you didn't have when you were younger, and how much more you appreciate them as an adult than you did as a kid, because you knew the lows, you sat through them for 17 years.

It's something that only can be gained by age. So yeah, the age gap is showing here.

Of course, there are those jackasses that are just that, jackasses... But they are a select few that are what they are for whatever reason....
RE: RE: RE: The first 5 games of the year everyone  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:53 pm : link
In comment 13705957 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13705943 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13705937 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


thought we had the most talent in the NFL around Eli and he still stunk.
Eli's last chance at being an Elite QB walked out the door with Gillbride's and Coughlin's offense. It was tailor made for Eli.
The argument could be made then he didn't have surrounding talent. Not now.



Those people were blinded by the record, and did not acknowledge the offense's failure to score 20 points over the course of the last six games of the season last year, and were blinded by the 11-5 record.

Beckham is Beckham.
Marshall was a joke who never showed up.
Sheppard was overrated.

No line.
Horrible running game continued.

Fool's gold. Sorry you fell for it.


So no mention of the QB play? Everything sucks but Eli. For fucks sake man. It’s bad enough that you CONTINUE to put words in people’s mouths and constantly resort to false narratives that people that don’t think Eli is the same QB anymore are somehow spitting on him or Eli haters, but your absolute refusal to pin ANYTHING on him is at this point simply asinine. You’re not doing yourself any favors on these Eli threads. Everyone here knows your stance. So what’s the point of this all? You think Eli is going to find you and offer to marry you because you’re trying too hard to be his biggest defender?

Eh, screw it. Please continue to accuse everyone of saying things that aren’t there if it gets you through the day. Hope Eli looks you up some day...


I responded directly to the first sentence in the post, that "everybody thought that Eli had the most talent around him in the NFL, but he still STUNK".

His words, not mine. I then went on to talk about how the greatest talent in the NFL wasn't so great.

That's all.
A lot of posters here DO get it....  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:54 pm : link
there are a handful that don't. Unfortunately, they are some of the most vocal.
Do you think this Giants offensive roster was the most talented in the  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:55 pm : link
NFL to start the season?

If so, well... we know who the real fool was.
I think we all need to eat crow..  
Sean : 11/26/2017 7:57 pm : link
we all, even you Britt wanted to see Eli in a more friendly QB system. Well, we got it. Jokes on us.

I still think it is outrageous that an offensive coordinator demanded Eli change all of his mechanics 2 years separating a SB MVP.
Come on Britt  
BigBlueShock : 11/26/2017 7:58 pm : link
You’ve been here long enough to know the trolls and posters that simply aren’t worth responding too because they have the brain of a mosquito with dementia. You using these posters to prop yourself up and make it seem like everyone that doesn’t want to give Eli a hand job is somehow anti Eli and “spitting” on him is getting tedious, to be kind.
RE: I think we all need to eat crow..  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13705970 Sean said:
Quote:
we all, even you Britt wanted to see Eli in a more friendly QB system. Well, we got it. Jokes on us.

I still think it is outrageous that an offensive coordinator demanded Eli change all of his mechanics 2 years separating a SB MVP.


Yeah, I did. But I think you know Sean, I saw the writing on the wall with the offense very early last season, before anybody else.

I think we saw what it COULD have been in 2014 and 2015. What it SHOULD have been. The failure was when the Coughlin influence left, and McAdoo got full control. We were sold a bill of goods based off 2014 and 2015, but 2016's offensive philosophy threw all the things that were successful the prior two years out the window.
RE: Come on Britt  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:00 pm : link
In comment 13705971 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
You’ve been here long enough to know the trolls and posters that simply aren’t worth responding too because they have the brain of a mosquito with dementia. You using these posters to prop yourself up and make it seem like everyone that doesn’t want to give Eli a hand job is somehow anti Eli and “spitting” on him is getting tedious, to be kind.


Read the posts besides mine on this thread. You think I'm alone? There are many here that share the sentiment. I might just be one of the most vocal.
The day Eli hangs them up he should go into the  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 11/26/2017 8:03 pm : link
Ring of Honor. No one should be spitting on him on his way out. But his time is coming to an end. The game has changed as well, there are very few teams that have Olines that could block for him due to his lack of mobility.

He’s not making plays or elavating anyone of the skill guys around him.

I think this shit show has got every one of them playing poorly. This cannot be fun for any of them.
RE: RE: Come on Britt  
BigBlueShock : 11/26/2017 8:05 pm : link
In comment 13705974 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13705971 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


You’ve been here long enough to know the trolls and posters that simply aren’t worth responding too because they have the brain of a mosquito with dementia. You using these posters to prop yourself up and make it seem like everyone that doesn’t want to give Eli a hand job is somehow anti Eli and “spitting” on him is getting tedious, to be kind.



Read the posts besides mine on this thread. You think I'm alone? There are many here that share the sentiment. I might just be one of the most vocal.

Some of those posters on your side have the same mosquito with dementia brain issues going on. That’s why I replied to you instead of those clowns. You actually have brains when you can separate yourself from your incredibly over the top Eli homerism.
Some of those guys have been around a lot longer than you and me....  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:06 pm : link
they just don't post a lot.
RE: Some of those guys have been around a lot longer than you and me....  
BigBlueShock : 11/26/2017 8:12 pm : link
In comment 13705986 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
they just don't post a lot.

I couldn’t care less how long they’ve been here. Doesn’t make them smart nor rational.
Think about this..  
Sean : 11/26/2017 8:13 pm : link
the Giants lost a game 52-49 in November of 2015. That vs where we are now. Wow.
RE: Think about this..  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:16 pm : link
In comment 13705997 Sean said:
Quote:
the Giants lost a game 52-49 in November of 2015. That vs where we are now. Wow.


Right, and Eli's arm has not gone dead since then. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
I've said it again, and again, and again over the past couple of weeks  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:17 pm : link

Here's how it's going to go.

Eli's replacement is drafted in Round 1 this year IF, and this is a big IF, they are in position to draft somebody they covet.

Davis Webb and new Quarterback duel it out for #2 in camp.

Eli starts the season, and depending on how it goes, he continues to play if they're winning or contributing.

One of two things happen, the Giants have a successful season which results in Eli starting the following season in his final year in his deal and whatever happens happens? Or they struggle and the new coach decides mid season that it's time to make the transition and they do it, ala Warner to Eli.

I know it's hard for people to wrap their heads around, but here's what's NOT going to happen:

Davis Webb will not start any game this season. His best case scenario is to be elevated to number 2 and come in the 2nd half of games to get some time.

Eli will not be cut or traded in the offseason.

Eli will not be a pay cut. I could see him restructuring if he works out an agreement that he will be allowed to play out his contract and retire gracefully, but who knows....
If they blow the whole thing up ...which they should  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 11/26/2017 8:33 pm : link
We will just have to wait and see.... new regime can change everything
RE: NYG's failure to answer his age question makes me suspect he's under  
NYG07 : 11/26/2017 8:40 pm : link
In comment 13705959 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
30. Which is fine.... But it leads me to my next point. Perspective. Do you know a Giants team without Eli Manning, or did you start following the Giants either when he was drafted or after?

I'm 41. I was 14 when the Giants won the Superbowl in 1990. I got hooked in 86, but was only 10 and didn't really understand the way I did at 14. I thought I knew it all, and even moreso into my 20's. But 17 years came and went, and it wasn't until 2007 II was 30) when it all came into the picture for me. 17 years between 1990 and 2007 was a long, long time. You learn to appreciate what you have a little more. You learn to appreciate players like Simms, even though at the time you when you were younger you might have thought it was a good business decision to go with the younger Graham and Brown. But then you sat through the Grahams, Browns, and Kannells, then you thought you had something in Kerry Collins, who seemed great but wasn't really, you just hadn't seen a real QB in almost a decade. Then comes Manning. And he brings you to the promised land. Then, four years later, he does it again. And then he struggles... But you remember. You remember those 17 years, the Grahams, the Browns, the Kannells, Kerry Collins.... And then you think about what an amazing two Superbowls were like with all that perspective that you didn't have when you were younger, and how much more you appreciate them as an adult than you did as a kid, because you knew the lows, you sat through them for 17 years.

It's something that only can be gained by age. So yeah, the age gap is showing here.

Of course, there are those jackasses that are just that, jackasses... But they are a select few that are what they are for whatever reason....


Thanks for asking Britt, I am not under 30, I am 30. Now that I know you are 41, this discussion only makes more sense to me. I never saw the depressing 70s teams, or the great 80s teams. My first memory of the Giants was going to the 98 game against NO when Kent Graham threw a hail mary before halftime.

I was in high school when the Giants traded for Eli, and I was excited beyond belief. I have rooted like hell for him. He was a top ten QB in his prime. I defended him to no end. I can't defend him anymore.

It isn't disrespect. I am not spitting on him on his way out. He can no longer elevate the players around him. He needs everything around him to be perfect just to complete a pass. He is outrageously overpaid and in my opinion finished as an NFL QB.

I will never forget the great memories, but I want to win in the future, and I don't believe he is part of the solution.
RE: If they blow the whole thing up ...which they should  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:54 pm : link
In comment 13706018 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:
Quote:
We will just have to wait and see.... new regime can change everything


Here's the main reason they will stick with Eli in 2018:

He's due to make $22 million next year, barring a restructure.

Cutting him would result in a dead cap hit of 12.5 million.

They're not just going to throw a rookie out there, or Davis Webb, week 1. So they're going to need a veteran QB on the roster, agreed? Look around the league.... Look at the QB's making around 10 million per year (the difference between Manning's dead cap hit and actual cap hit).

Mike Glennon, Chicago, $14 million
Jay Cutler, Miami, $10 million
Tyrod Taylor, Buffalo, $9.7 million
Jameis Winston, Tampa Bay, $6.9 million
Marcus Mariota, Tennessee, $6.6 million
Blake Bortles, Jacksonville, $6.57 million
Josh McCown, N.Y. Jets, $6.5 million

So what's a better value to you to start next year?

Eli Manning at 22 million?

Or one of the above guys as 12.5 million (dead money) plus their salary?

Either way, you're going to have about 20 million in cap space allotted to the QB position.

It's a no brainer.
And that's why keeping Manning next year....  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:56 pm : link
is the actual sound "business" decision.
And let's face it, who do you want mentoring your top draft pick?  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:56 pm : link
Jay Cutler? Or Eli Manning?
RE: RE: NYG's failure to answer his age question makes me suspect he's under  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 9:01 pm : link
In comment 13706029 NYG07 said:
Quote:
In comment 13705959 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


30. Which is fine.... But it leads me to my next point. Perspective. Do you know a Giants team without Eli Manning, or did you start following the Giants either when he was drafted or after?

I'm 41. I was 14 when the Giants won the Superbowl in 1990. I got hooked in 86, but was only 10 and didn't really understand the way I did at 14. I thought I knew it all, and even moreso into my 20's. But 17 years came and went, and it wasn't until 2007 II was 30) when it all came into the picture for me. 17 years between 1990 and 2007 was a long, long time. You learn to appreciate what you have a little more. You learn to appreciate players like Simms, even though at the time you when you were younger you might have thought it was a good business decision to go with the younger Graham and Brown. But then you sat through the Grahams, Browns, and Kannells, then you thought you had something in Kerry Collins, who seemed great but wasn't really, you just hadn't seen a real QB in almost a decade. Then comes Manning. And he brings you to the promised land. Then, four years later, he does it again. And then he struggles... But you remember. You remember those 17 years, the Grahams, the Browns, the Kannells, Kerry Collins.... And then you think about what an amazing two Superbowls were like with all that perspective that you didn't have when you were younger, and how much more you appreciate them as an adult than you did as a kid, because you knew the lows, you sat through them for 17 years.

It's something that only can be gained by age. So yeah, the age gap is showing here.

Of course, there are those jackasses that are just that, jackasses... But they are a select few that are what they are for whatever reason....



Thanks for asking Britt, I am not under 30, I am 30. Now that I know you are 41, this discussion only makes more sense to me. I never saw the depressing 70s teams, or the great 80s teams. My first memory of the Giants was going to the 98 game against NO when Kent Graham threw a hail mary before halftime.

I was in high school when the Giants traded for Eli, and I was excited beyond belief. I have rooted like hell for him. He was a top ten QB in his prime. I defended him to no end. I can't defend him anymore.

It isn't disrespect. I am not spitting on him on his way out. He can no longer elevate the players around him. He needs everything around him to be perfect just to complete a pass. He is outrageously overpaid and in my opinion finished as an NFL QB.

I will never forget the great memories, but I want to win in the future, and I don't believe he is part of the solution.


Thanks for the response, interesting... So you were about 15-16 when Eli was drafted, 19 or 20 when they won it all. I was 14 in 1990 during that championship.

Just remember this... There are no guarantees either way. 17 seasons for me, 14 to 31 was a long time. Always remember you might be 47 years old before they win it all again. Of course, they could win it again next year, but it could also be 17 years. I know because I lived em'.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The first 5 games of the year everyone  
Thunderstruck27 : 11/26/2017 9:03 pm : link
In comment 13705962 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13705957 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13705943 Britt in VA said:



I responded directly to the first sentence in the post, that "everybody thought that Eli had the most talent around him in the NFL, but he still STUNK".

His words, not mine. I then went on to talk about how the greatest talent in the NFL wasn't so great.

That's all.


I did say that. Do I need to post Eli's stats? Or are they irrelevant?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The first 5 games of the year everyone  
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 9:09 pm : link
In comment 13706050 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 13705962 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13705957 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13705943 Britt in VA said:



I responded directly to the first sentence in the post, that "everybody thought that Eli had the most talent around him in the NFL, but he still STUNK".

His words, not mine. I then went on to talk about how the greatest talent in the NFL wasn't so great.

That's all.



I did say that. Do I need to post Eli's stats? Or are they irrelevant?


Were you one of the people that thought Eli had the most talented offense in the NFL, and ignored the fact that the most talented offense in the NFL hadn't broken 20 points in 6 games heading into the season?

If yes, then no, don't worry about posting anything else on the matter.
Meh, to be fair,  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/26/2017 9:12 pm : link
it's really only a select few that think Eli can do no wrong and/or has never done any wrong in his entire career. To this blaming this mostly on injuries, nah. Before we suffered a ridiculous amount of injures, this team was still winless and yes, Eli is absolutely a factor in that whether some want to admit that or not.

To those who want Eli to start next year, be careful what you wish for. We're most likely going to suck next year, too, even if it's not as bad as this year. And if that's the case, there's a decent chance Eli finishes his career as a sub .500 QB. Not a definite, but definitely a chance. Yikes.

We are almost absolutely drafting a QB in round 1 this year. If people don't think John Mara is fuming right now and looking for replacements up and down the organization/team, you're going to be in for quite the surprise.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The first 5 games of the year everyone  
Thunderstruck27 : 11/26/2017 9:21 pm : link
In comment 13706055 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13706050 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


In comment 13705962 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13705957 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13705943 Britt in VA said:



I responded directly to the first sentence in the post, that "everybody thought that Eli had the most talent around him in the NFL, but he still STUNK".

His words, not mine. I then went on to talk about how the greatest talent in the NFL wasn't so great.

That's all.



I did say that. Do I need to post Eli's stats? Or are they irrelevant?



Were you one of the people that thought Eli had the most talented offense in the NFL, and ignored the fact that the most talented offense in the NFL hadn't broken 20 points in 6 games heading into the season?

If yes, then no, don't worry about posting anything else on the matter.


I thought that Eli was talented enough to win with OBJ, Marshall, Engram, and Shepard. I was wrong.
RE: RE: RE: NYG's failure to answer his age question makes me suspect he's under  
NYG07 : 11/26/2017 9:22 pm : link
In comment 13706046 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13706029 NYG07 said:


Quote:


In comment 13705959 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


30. Which is fine.... But it leads me to my next point. Perspective. Do you know a Giants team without Eli Manning, or did you start following the Giants either when he was drafted or after?

I'm 41. I was 14 when the Giants won the Superbowl in 1990. I got hooked in 86, but was only 10 and didn't really understand the way I did at 14. I thought I knew it all, and even moreso into my 20's. But 17 years came and went, and it wasn't until 2007 II was 30) when it all came into the picture for me. 17 years between 1990 and 2007 was a long, long time. You learn to appreciate what you have a little more. You learn to appreciate players like Simms, even though at the time you when you were younger you might have thought it was a good business decision to go with the younger Graham and Brown. But then you sat through the Grahams, Browns, and Kannells, then you thought you had something in Kerry Collins, who seemed great but wasn't really, you just hadn't seen a real QB in almost a decade. Then comes Manning. And he brings you to the promised land. Then, four years later, he does it again. And then he struggles... But you remember. You remember those 17 years, the Grahams, the Browns, the Kannells, Kerry Collins.... And then you think about what an amazing two Superbowls were like with all that perspective that you didn't have when you were younger, and how much more you appreciate them as an adult than you did as a kid, because you knew the lows, you sat through them for 17 years.

It's something that only can be gained by age. So yeah, the age gap is showing here.

Of course, there are those jackasses that are just that, jackasses... But they are a select few that are what they are for whatever reason....



Thanks for asking Britt, I am not under 30, I am 30. Now that I know you are 41, this discussion only makes more sense to me. I never saw the depressing 70s teams, or the great 80s teams. My first memory of the Giants was going to the 98 game against NO when Kent Graham threw a hail mary before halftime.

I was in high school when the Giants traded for Eli, and I was excited beyond belief. I have rooted like hell for him. He was a top ten QB in his prime. I defended him to no end. I can't defend him anymore.

It isn't disrespect. I am not spitting on him on his way out. He can no longer elevate the players around him. He needs everything around him to be perfect just to complete a pass. He is outrageously overpaid and in my opinion finished as an NFL QB.

I will never forget the great memories, but I want to win in the future, and I don't believe he is part of the solution.



Thanks for the response, interesting... So you were about 15-16 when Eli was drafted, 19 or 20 when they won it all. I was 14 in 1990 during that championship.

Just remember this... There are no guarantees either way. 17 seasons for me, 14 to 31 was a long time. Always remember you might be 47 years old before they win it all again. Of course, they could win it again next year, but it could also be 17 years. I know because I lived em'.


It is great to get to know you better Britt, and like I have said I have nothing but the utmost respect for you as a poster on this site. There were some dark times between Simms and Eli. But that is no reason to fear life after Eli.

There are young QBs all over the NFL that are outplaying Eli, regardless of situation. I believe the Giants best chance moving forward is paying Beckham and having a young, cheap QB on a rookie contract. Whether that is the upcoming first round pick or Webb doesn't matter. May the best man win. But having an over the hill Manning making $20M is not helping this team rebuild.

RE: The situation Eli is in  
EricJ : 11/26/2017 9:36 pm : link
In comment 13705354 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
is either the worst, or 2nd worst in the league.

He has had more passes dropped than any QB in the NFL, his OL has been a bottom 5 unit, and his top 3 WRs have all missed the majority of the season.

Find a QB situation in the league worse than that.


You are absolutely right Sy. Don't forget the play calling too. However, you watch the game film closely. You know that Eli leaves too many throws and plays on the field. When he does have time, he is not delivering the ball too often. We both know that his lack of mobility makes our offense much easier to defend. Finally, I also believe that he has become predictable in the plays he checks down to and in fact the defenses are basically tricking him into checking out of the original play and into a smaller set of plays they are fully prepared to defend.

All that said, he needs to be on this team next year to help the QB that we will draft in the first round. This team has too many huge holes to fill to be compete for a championship next year. It would be the perfect time to give a young QB some snaps.
There are a lot of fans here who have never been a Giants fan  
baadbill : 11/26/2017 9:37 pm : link
before Eli Manning. You think Manning is lousy now? Let me tell you something: You don't know what bad is.

During the next 50 years of your life, you are going to live through some absolutely horrendous years watching the Giants try to find their next franchise QB - and you watch as QB after QB is drafted and tried and just doesn't cut if ... as coach after coach is fired - and after 20 years (if you are lucky) the Giants finally settle on a QB good enough to hold the job for a decade.

For my sake (since I don't have 50 years left) I just pray the Giants are lucky enough to find Manning's replacement right away and that the next 20+ year search is after I leave this earth.
Again, the problem with the ‘just wait and see how bad it can get’  
Sean : 11/26/2017 9:45 pm : link
It’s already pretty fucking bad:

2012: 9-7 (no playoffs)
2013: 7-9 after starting 0-6 (no playoffs)
2014: 6-10 after being 3-9 (no playoffs)
2015: 6-10 finishing the year 1-6 (no playoffs)
2016: 11-5 (one and done, defense driven team)
2017: 2-9 (already eliminated mathematically 11/26)

So, this whole ‘you don’t appreciate how good you have it now’ is bullshit. It’s pretty damn bleak right now and the offense looks high school level.

The ‘be careful what you wish for’ was Patrick Ewing unable to deliver a title for the Knicks but getting to the playoffs every year. It isn’t for the stretch of football we’ve suffered through here.
RE: Again, the problem with the ‘just wait and see how bad it can get’  
baadbill : 11/26/2017 9:53 pm : link
In comment 13706074 Sean said:
Quote:
It’s already pretty fucking bad:

2012: 9-7 (no playoffs)
2013: 7-9 after starting 0-6 (no playoffs)
2014: 6-10 after being 3-9 (no playoffs)
2015: 6-10 finishing the year 1-6 (no playoffs)
2016: 11-5 (one and done, defense driven team)
2017: 2-9 (already eliminated mathematically 11/26)

So, this whole ‘you don’t appreciate how good you have it now’ is bullshit. It’s pretty damn bleak right now and the offense looks high school level.

The ‘be careful what you wish for’ was Patrick Ewing unable to deliver a title for the Knicks but getting to the playoffs every year. It isn’t for the stretch of football we’ve suffered through here.


I don't know if you are responding to me, because I didn't say anything about not drafting Manning's replacement. I'm just pointing out that there is going to be a 20+ year stretch most of BBI will witness when the Giants go through 3-5 QBs, 3 coaches, and a losing record that will be a very long, dry road. And that will make Manning - at his very worst - look like gold in comparison.

I'm excited to see the next QB to start for the Giants for 10 straight years. I just pray I don't have to wait 20+ years before I see him.
RE: RE: Again, the problem with the ‘just wait and see how bad it can get’  
Sean : 11/26/2017 9:58 pm : link
In comment 13706083 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13706074 Sean said:


Quote:


It’s already pretty fucking bad:

2012: 9-7 (no playoffs)
2013: 7-9 after starting 0-6 (no playoffs)
2014: 6-10 after being 3-9 (no playoffs)
2015: 6-10 finishing the year 1-6 (no playoffs)
2016: 11-5 (one and done, defense driven team)
2017: 2-9 (already eliminated mathematically 11/26)

So, this whole ‘you don’t appreciate how good you have it now’ is bullshit. It’s pretty damn bleak right now and the offense looks high school level.

The ‘be careful what you wish for’ was Patrick Ewing unable to deliver a title for the Knicks but getting to the playoffs every year. It isn’t for the stretch of football we’ve suffered through here.



I don't know if you are responding to me, because I didn't say anything about not drafting Manning's replacement. I'm just pointing out that there is going to be a 20+ year stretch most of BBI will witness when the Giants go through 3-5 QBs, 3 coaches, and a losing record that will be a very long, dry road. And that will make Manning - at his very worst - look like gold in comparison.

I'm excited to see the next QB to start for the Giants for 10 straight years. I just pray I don't have to wait 20+ years before I see him.


I agree completely. Eli is the greatest QB this franchise has ever seen. My point being, it is reasonable for fans to want a change with anything given the recent performance.
And another thing ... I have zero faith that the Giants can  
baadbill : 11/26/2017 9:59 pm : link
identify the talent to replace Manning. Certainly not Reese and McAdoo. Nor the Maras. And am I supposed to have faith that the Maras actually find a competent talent evaluator to be GM before the draft? And have faith they won't interfere?

The most recent top 10 picks tell me the Giants don't have a fucking clue when it comes to evaluating talent and that replacing Manning in this draft is going to be a real fucking crap shoot.
...  
christian : 11/26/2017 10:52 pm : link
If the ownership and the management are clueless, did they just fall ass backward into Reese as a talent evaluator, Accorsi as the GM and Coughlin as coach?

Because rewind to the last time the Giants were at critical junctures Wellington Mara was largely a figure head and his son was calling most of the shots.
Badbill  
hassan : 11/27/2017 5:41 am : link
You have no idea what the Giants will do-- I'll remind you the 90 Giants did get to another super bowl in 2000. Ten year hiatus. Seven years after Simms left. This is after cycling through a few qbs. But Brown was a bad misreach that no one else coveted.

The Giants were then able to transition from Collins who mad a super bowl to a super bowl winning qb. Different coaches and different gm. Why so down on the Maras?

We can appreciate Manning. But the idea there is a necessary floundering is not a given. In fact the Giants have recent qb transitions handled well.
RE: Badbill  
christian : 11/27/2017 6:49 am : link
In comment 13706160 hassan said:
Quote:
You have no idea what the Giants will do-- I'll remind you the 90 Giants did get to another super bowl in 2000. Ten year hiatus. Seven years after Simms left. This is after cycling through a few qbs. But Brown was a bad misreach that no one else coveted.

The Giants were then able to transition from Collins who mad a super bowl to a super bowl winning qb. Different coaches and different gm. Why so down on the Maras?

We can appreciate Manning. But the idea there is a necessary floundering is not a given. In fact the Giants have recent qb transitions handled well.


There is a group of folks (not saying Bill who I've only see be a good poster) that can only fathom Coughlin and Manning winning for this team.

The post-Accorsi revisionism is funny. He was routinely destroyed on BBI. Including for hiring Coughlin and trading for Manning.

History has been kind to him, and for good reason. But he wasn't running the shop alone. Mara was firmly in place yielding considerable influence at the time.

He made a mistake with Mcadoo. He's made good decisions before, he can fix this.
RE: Badbill  
EricJ : 11/27/2017 7:53 am : link
In comment 13706160 hassan said:
Quote:

The Giants were then able to transition from Collins who mad a super bowl to a super bowl winning qb. Different coaches and different gm. Why so down on the Maras?


Some history for you here...
The Mara family was making the personnel decisions back in the 70's. It got so bad that the NFL basically forced them to hire George Young to run the operations. It worked and for the most part Wellington stayed out of those decisions and my guess only weighed in on the hiring of the head coaches.

Fast forward to the post Wellington era. In 2011 Chris Mara was promoted to Senior VP of player personnel. He was the VP from 2003 to 2011. You also see John more active and visible (not by any means like a meddling owner because he is not that). The Mara family has their finger in the decision making more today than they did in the past. Interesting that a lot of the player selection issues happened after Chris Mara was promoted to that Senior VP position.
RE: Badbill  
baadbill : 11/27/2017 9:01 am : link
In comment 13706160 hassan said:
Quote:
... Why so down on the Maras?

...


I have been a huge Giants fan all my life dating back to the late 1950's. The commissioner getting involved in the Mara feud and helping them appoint George Young as GM led to the Giants first two Super Bowls.

But it has become clear - from John Mara's own mouth - that he is in the draft room and that he plays a direct role in approving every draft pick. And I suspect he plays a much larger role in that regard than Chris does. John is involved in making the final selection - Chris only provides the recommendations.

I understand owners have the right to play with their toys. They have the right to use the "real thing" the way fans play fantasy football. But as a fan, I object to their intrusion - especially when I suspect the intrusion is having a negative impact on football operations - a situation I suspect is true with John Mara in the draft room.
I never get...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/27/2017 9:20 am : link
posts like this:

Quote:
Essentially the Eli Brigade believes...
bw in dc : 11/26/2017 6:15 pm : link : reply
this:


"Eli Brigade"? That's said derisively, as if rooting for the QB is a bad thing.

Such a puzzling way to address people wanting Eli to do well.
Exactly.  
Britt in VA : 11/27/2017 1:07 pm : link
.
baadbill  
arniefez : 11/27/2017 1:15 pm : link
You left out the part about John Mara hiring the coaching staff. Not just the head coach but the coordinators too. Look at the collection of the Giants top 4 coaches in 2017. McAdoo, Quinn, Spags, Sullivan. Do you think any of those will ever get another NFL with those titles if Mara ever lets someone other him pick the coaches. Would it surprise anyone if the Giants make some coaching changes and Quinn and Sullivan are still in the same spots in 2018.
christian  
arniefez : 11/27/2017 1:24 pm : link
George Young hired Acorssi. George Young hired Jerry Reese. Bill Parcells hired Coughlin. Acorssi and Coughlin were the last links to the Pete Rozelle brokered era of the Giants. When Chris Mara was elevated to an equal position as Reese that's when things really went to shit.
RE: RE: Badbill  
WideRight : 11/27/2017 1:45 pm : link
In comment 13706254 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13706160 hassan said:


Quote:


... Why so down on the Maras?

...



I have been a huge Giants fan all my life dating back to the late 1950's. The commissioner getting involved in the Mara feud and helping them appoint George Young as GM led to the Giants first two Super Bowls.

But it has become clear - from John Mara's own mouth - that he is in the draft room and that he plays a direct role in approving every draft pick. And I suspect he plays a much larger role in that regard than Chris does. John is involved in making the final selection - Chris only provides the recommendations.

I understand owners have the right to play with their toys. They have the right to use the "real thing" the way fans play fantasy football. But as a fan, I object to their intrusion - especially when I suspect the intrusion is having a negative impact on football operations - a situation I suspect is true with John Mara in the draft room.


Where have you seen that John Mara is anything more than a rubber-stamp executive? Of course he signs off on all decisions, but I doubt he overrules them. I agree with you about Chris, however. There no way he is the best candidate for the positions he has been promoted to, and that is both nepotism and arrogance that we as fans may have to suffer though for a very long time.
RE: RE: RE: Badbill  
baadbill : 11/27/2017 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13706707 WideRight said:
Quote:
In comment 13706254 baadbill said:


Quote:


In comment 13706160 hassan said:


Quote:


... Why so down on the Maras?

...



I have been a huge Giants fan all my life dating back to the late 1950's. The commissioner getting involved in the Mara feud and helping them appoint George Young as GM led to the Giants first two Super Bowls.

But it has become clear - from John Mara's own mouth - that he is in the draft room and that he plays a direct role in approving every draft pick. And I suspect he plays a much larger role in that regard than Chris does. John is involved in making the final selection - Chris only provides the recommendations.

I understand owners have the right to play with their toys. They have the right to use the "real thing" the way fans play fantasy football. But as a fan, I object to their intrusion - especially when I suspect the intrusion is having a negative impact on football operations - a situation I suspect is true with John Mara in the draft room.



Where have you seen that John Mara is anything more than a rubber-stamp executive? Of course he signs off on all decisions, but I doubt he overrules them. I agree with you about Chris, however. There no way he is the best candidate for the positions he has been promoted to, and that is both nepotism and arrogance that we as fans may have to suffer though for a very long time.


I have seen it directly from John Mara's own mouth. While he didn't go into any depth regarding the extent of his role, he made it very clear he was not just a rubber stamp and that he played a very real role in the selection process on draft day.
You say use your eyes  
Matt M. : 11/27/2017 2:15 pm : link
I do use my eyes and I still see the same QB. He still throws a nice deep ball, makes the right reads and progressions, runs the offense, etc. The areas that were always deficiencies (i.e. mobility consistency in the short game) are still deficiencies. But, I don't see him any less mobile now.

On the other hand, I d't give him a pass using the OL or the WR corps as an excuse because the OL hasn't gotten any better or worse in the last four years. And, Eli hasn't really been operating with much more than 1 legitimate WR threat in the same span. In fact, McAdoo was brought in specifically to install a WCO to combat the poor OL, inconsistent WRs, and lack of a running game.

So, what's the difference? In my opinion, this is not the same offense McAdoo called in 2014 and 2015. he has approached this offense very differently since becoming the HC. The only thing that has changed in the weeks since Sullivan took over playcalling is a slightly increased interest in running the ball. But, they are still running the same personnel packages and calling the same plays.
RE: RE: I think we all need to eat crow..  
Matt M. : 11/27/2017 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13705972 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13705970 Sean said:


Quote:


we all, even you Britt wanted to see Eli in a more friendly QB system. Well, we got it. Jokes on us.

I still think it is outrageous that an offensive coordinator demanded Eli change all of his mechanics 2 years separating a SB MVP.



Yeah, I did. But I think you know Sean, I saw the writing on the wall with the offense very early last season, before anybody else.

I think we saw what it COULD have been in 2014 and 2015. What it SHOULD have been. The failure was when the Coughlin influence left, and McAdoo got full control. We were sold a bill of goods based off 2014 and 2015, but 2016's offensive philosophy threw all the things that were successful the prior two years out the window.
I don't know if it was Coughlin's influence being gone or McAdoo just coaches with no balls as a HC. But, this is not the same offense we saw in 2014 and 2015. When I say that, I don't mean the level of execution, but rather the philosophy, gameplanning, personnel, or playcalling.

I don't pretend to know how many years Eli has left, but I honestly believe if they trade him to contender next year, he leads them deep in the playoffs.
Eli's not the same QB anymore.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/27/2017 2:32 pm : link
Not even before the injures. But, considering there were some who before this season thought he had another 4-5 years in him, I guess we're making baby-steps..
I just don't understand the lack of understanding  
gmenatlarge : 11/27/2017 2:41 pm : link
that football is a "team" game and Eli has a shit team in front of him. He would do just fine with even an average team around him. Stop the BS!
RE: Eli's not the same QB anymore.  
baadbill : 11/27/2017 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13706769 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
Not even before the injures. But, considering there were some who before this season thought he had another 4-5 years in him, I guess we're making baby-steps..


"baby-steps" ...

Dave, does it matter what people on BBI think? You or me?

At the end of the day, how many years Manning ends up playing will not have been impacted one iota by what any of us "predict". Getting into arguments over it ... as though one person's guess is more valid than someone else's is just silly - because nobody can do anything other than guess when it comes to knowing how many more years Manning plays (or how well he plays).
Hypothetical question  
Matt M. : 11/27/2017 3:14 pm : link
If Eli was playing at what would be considered a top level (or at the level of the 2014 and 2015) and the record was still the same, would the advocacy still be for drafting a QB?
Think about it for a minute  
WideRight : 11/27/2017 3:16 pm : link
Imagine Eli playing out his career on another team....and they wound up playing the Giants

How hard, or easy, would it be to root against him?
RE: Think about it for a minute  
bigbluehoya : 11/27/2017 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13706826 WideRight said:
Quote:
Imagine Eli playing out his career on another team....and they wound up playing the Giants

How hard, or easy, would it be to root against him?


Let’s pretend that the answer is “super hard”. What does that mean? Is there some deductive reasoning here?
Eli has not had his best season...  
Slade : 11/27/2017 3:40 pm : link
He has missed some throws. He took a lot of hits in the early going... Then... By the time the OLine started to actually protect... He was left throwing to King, Rudolph & Lewis... Hardly an intimidating arsenal.

Team is committed to Eli until he starts to lose games... He's not the problem.

Some other notes:

Jackrabbit should have been shut down weeks ago... He fought through it, to show that he hadn't quit and that he was still a top corner. (Doesn't want to get cut)

Apple is really a headcase... Talking about bringing in a guy like Rolle as an advisor to mentor him.

Pugh, Ritchberg, Flowers, Fluker and one of the Notre Dame Linemen, probably your OL next year.





.  
arcarsenal : 11/27/2017 3:45 pm : link
Still hanging onto the "insider" thing I see....
RE: Hypothetical question  
baadbill : 11/27/2017 4:02 pm : link
In comment 13706822 Matt M. said:
Quote:
If Eli was playing at what would be considered a top level (or at the level of the 2014 and 2015) and the record was still the same, would the advocacy still be for drafting a QB?


I think the reason to select a QB is based solely upon two reasons:
1. Manning is at the twilight of his career, regardless of whether this year is his last or if he plays 3 more years.

2. The Giants are about to get a premium pick (hopefully in the top 3).

Those two factors would mean I'd be picking Manning's replacement this upcoming draft irrespective of the quality of Manning's performance.
See Webb  
Thegratefulhead : 11/27/2017 4:57 pm : link
Eli does not often throw a very catchable ball, it wobbles, think knuckleball. He sometimes throws pretty passes but that is not his norm. He throws his short ball too hard. He struggles with touch. He has never been a very accurate QB. He gets some of the blame for drops.
I love Eli Manning. I think he should be in the HoF.
I think Eli is the starting QB next year.
I also think at 2 – 9 it is monumentally organizationally stupid not to play Webb the rest of the season.
Wins hurt us.
I want him to get the multiple weeks of practice time with the first team.
I want him to start multiple entire games, multiple is key. I want to see if he improves.
I want see how he commands the huddle, how his teammates respond to him.
I see all of this as valuable information whether Webb plays terribly or impresses going into next year’s draft.
Even if week take a QB high and Webb played well the remainder of this year that experience given to Webb could provide to be very valuable if we trade Webb. Teams want regular season experience when trading for a QB.
The only things playing Eli for the rest of year does is maybe improve our record, worsen or draft picks and extend his personal playing streak. I see no real downside.
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