Presently, there are six living Presidents - HW Bush, GW Bush, Clinton, Carter, Obama and Trump.
Half of them have been accused of groping people - Clinton, Trump and at 93, even HW Bush. So much for Presidential decorum !
Several years ago, the computer software development company where I was working held a Sexual Harassment Seminar. There was about 400 people in the conference room.
It was a very international company, with many foreign guests who were taking technical taring courses. The speaker introduced the topic and noted that this may may have sounded very strange and unusual to some foreigners.
He went on to note that the practice of casual butt pinching of women on the street is not unusual in some countries. "in France, it's called l'amour". I've never been there, is that true ?
"An American Girl in Italy" 1951 - still timely today.
I still think that we (as Americans) have a sense of right and wrong (called shame). - but steadily losing it.
When many in foreign countries that were absolutely insane for calling out Clinton for his antics in the White House, we knew he was an dirty scoundrel (and eventually he apologized).
Now we've got another scumbag (Trump) in the White House. I don't think he'll ever apologize for anything.
If you really wanted to start a thread on this subject, you should probably instead posed it as people in power tend to abuse power in one way or another across all countries and cultures.
Trying to posit Americans as morally better or knowing right from wrong and sprinkling some bullshit political comment in is just that - bullshit.
Reports of this behavior go back to the early 90s...not age related.
Indiscriminately - shame (if you have any), else getting punched in the nose, literally (or in the pocket book).
The pile of delusionally empowered A-holes will get bigger, in the days to come.
If you really wanted to start a thread on this subject, you should probably instead posed it as people in power tend to abuse power in one way or another across all countries and cultures.
Trying to posit Americans as morally better or knowing right from wrong and sprinkling some bullshit political comment in is just that - bullshit.
Well said
They're the ones who bombed Pear Harbor in a surprise attack. I've seen photos of their diplomats in Washington DC, right after that happened - with figuratively their "tails between their legs" as they left the country.
Like I said, before, many around the world (not just the Japanese) openly laughed and mocked the US as it struggled to deal with Clinton -
"so what's the big deal ?"
Seems to me, the Office of the President of the United States deserves better; "just saying".
For answering my question - a real simple one.
Referring back to the seminar - Here it's crude and unacceptable, there it's just "l'amour"
In Saudia Arabia, they might arrest the girl who got pinched.
If you really wanted to start a thread on this subject, you should probably instead posed it as people in power tend to abuse power in one way or another across all countries and culture.
So then stear it that way. Grown ups can have conversations about political figures without it being about politics.
There is nothing political about the thread starter, and you know that.
The decorum and standards of our leaders is a vibrant and topical story through the ages. It's fascinating to me how power and corruption has been tolerated at the pinnacle of our leadership.
It's weird how tolerating as a society we've been. Especially in cases where that behavior violated the ethics and morality leaders have represented.
Whether it is an Islamic cleric, an African President, a South American dictator, a US politician, etc.
Fatman, I have no argument that abuse of power and corruption can be seen in all societies. The problem arises when it's "brushed under the carpet" (sacrificing principle) for the sake of the mundane.
And what is the cause ? - The loss of shame. Without it, there are no fences, no remorse. We lose our humanity.
Even the animals are more ethical at that point, they fight to gain the right to mate, kill to eat, and that's basically it - not to feed any egos.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.
California isn't America? Clinton was given a pass? A whole lot of stupid in that post.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.
Manny is Manny. But in the very least, he knows the 50 US States. You clearly do not.
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I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.
California isn't America? Clinton was given a pass? A whole lot of stupid in that post.
Quote:
I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.
Manny is Manny. But in the very least, he knows the 50 US States. You clearly do not.
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In comment 13717514 Manning10 said:
Quote:
I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.
California isn't America? Clinton was given a pass? A whole lot of stupid in that post.
i think Clinton would be an interesting topic actually, it on a different board. For this thread, I’ll just say I disagree with you and that A Clinton v Trump/Franken/Weinstein/later/etc discussion on how we view sexual assault either through time or ideological prisms would be fascinating IMO
Does that also include Bush Sr., whose groping escapades are regularly dismissed due to dementia here? Despite his being a sitting president at the time?
I think people certainly do view these stories through an ideological prism. I also happen to think one side is more intellectually honest about some things. It's not my side, unfortunately.
So you're with me on Iowa...
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Just from an abstract perspective I am intrigued by how our political philosophies alter even our Ten Commandment values. It’s weird. But I can’t say that sometimes I don’t see it in myself.
So you're with me on Iowa...
It's compassion. Humanity. Fellow feeling.
One might be horny, but their compassion for fellow humans is the over riding factor.
Shame is a useless feeling. It's what you feel when your mama yells at you for soiling your sheets.
Openess of sexuality or showing skin (maybe what fatman alluded to from his trips to Japan...if only, sigh) has nothing to do with exploitations or not.
People don't turn to cruelty because there is no porno on the subway.
People who exploit get -turned on- by cruelty, bullying, intimidation, cheating and power and have no compassion to begin with. Ok. Maybe shame is the only thing that reaches -them.
But for the rest of us it's love and compassion for our fellow humans.
It's compassion. Humanity. Fellow feeling.
One might be horny, but their compassion for fellow humans is the over riding factor.
Shame is a useless feeling. It's what you feel when your mama yells at you for soiling your sheets.
Openess of sexuality or showing skin (maybe what fatman alluded to from his trips to Japan...if only, sigh) has nothing to do with exploitations or not.
People don't turn to cruelty because there is no porno on the subway.
People who exploit get -turned on- by cruelty, bullying, intimidation, cheating and power and have no compassion to begin with. Ok. Maybe shame is the only thing that reaches -them.
But for the rest of us it's love and compassion for our fellow humans.
Right. Compassion and love. Common themes in most all organized religions, I'm sure you'd agree.
Except there appears to be a direct correlation between sexual repression, cruelty, violence towards women, persecution of minorities (secular and otherwise) in virtually all countries that follow the strictest interpretation of their respective doctrines. Throughout history.
Visualise a pyramid greased with a mixture of K-Y and blood. People struggling to climb it.
Sports is probably next, by the way.
It's power. If 90% of the single mothers in a county are broke and starving, and the 7-11 is the only job, you can almost bet the manager leverages his position with power and cruelty. Shame doesn't stop that. Love and compassion on his part stops that.
Do I have to?
Let's guess.
Did Harvey Weinstein's mother raise him with compassion and empathy?
Or did she make him feel inconsequential by using shame and power?
My - guess the second thing.
Shame may be passed on to the next person that way. As they may feel shame after being victimised.
Whereas if compassion is the magic thing, one would be less likely to blend power with sexuality?
Let's guess.
Did Harvey Weinstein's mother raise him with compassion and empathy?
Or did she make him feel inconsequential by using shame and power?
My - guess the second thing.
Shame may be passed on to the next person that way. As they may feel shame after being victimised.
Whereas if compassion is the magic thing, one would be less likely to blend power with sexuality?
Very much a believer in Jung's duality. Life is complicated. Humans are flawed creatures and what we choose to do at ANY given time is seldom driven by conscience, compassion or depravity. It's driven by circumstance, perspective, potential repercussion, environment. Emotion Or lack of ability to mitigate.
How else can we explain the daily instances of good people doing terrible things? Men and women of cloth molesting children or turning a blind eye. Ethnic cleansing. The atrocities (and war crimes) of war committed by people who showed great compassion towards their own people? A mother that drives her children into a lake. A family man which fires several hundred bullets into a crowd of people in Las Vegas.
One of the most striking visuals for me illustrating this is Kubrick. The great and often overlooked scene in which Joker - the conscience of Full Metal Jacket - beats Pyle the hardest.
When you reach out to (As old HW says "David cop-a-feel") you forget that that person is someone's mother or sister - at the moment, she's an object [compassion is absent].
But so is shame - Self respect is also sacrificed at the alter of naughty indulgence.
That's why, whereas one lives and let lives, it not always best to let the empathically challenged make the rules ("this is how it works in Hollywood") or write the belief systems (Jung or the Diagnostic Manual).
Maybe it's not that some are 'more bad' (after all, who would not want free poony?) but that some have been made blind to the invisible... And therefore why care?
That leaves open some obvious questions though:
A 90 year-old man copping a feel from a wheelchair doesn't compare to intentionally walking in on underage girls dressing, reaching under the table to shove his hand up womens' skirts, grabbing women by their pussies without consent, violently preying upon his wife as revenge for bad plastic surgery, and a whole host of other allegations.