Giants coaches and staffers had final game-planning discussions today and sources say the expected result is finalized: Eli Manning is the starting quarterback. On Sunday vs the Cowboys, he’ll extend his streak to one.
Jesus, the Giants could fuck up a wet dream.
Unless plan is to send Webb in at half, this is beyond stupid
You can blame McAdoo for the lack of development of Webb for his lack of preparedness. Eli should be playing. Webb can beat out Geno Smith for the back up spot and you want him to start? With no WR, running game and a shit O Line?
Then you will say Gosh Webb Sucks when he gets his opportunity.
Spags coaching to win the last four games, to try and win himself the head job. Playing an aging known quantity in a lost season while a young, promising player continues to watch. I can see it now, Abrams/Spags GM/HC combo.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Do people still give a crap about the stupid streak? Â
Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
what the heck makes your happy? Eli is starting... isnt this good? we melted down last week when he was benched, now he is starting and some here are melting down about this.... jeez.
Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
Seriously, does ANYONE anywhere believe that MacMagoo made the decision to sit Eli.? That order came from MARA/TISCH.
MacMagoo still deserved to be fired after SF game
what the heck makes your happy? Eli is starting... isnt this good? we melted down last week when he was benched, now he is starting and some here are melting down about this.... jeez.
I was perfectly fine with Eli going to the bench and transitioning to the young guys. Not for a second did I have a problem with it. Just how it was presented. Mara should have done it from the outset.
what the heck makes your happy? Eli is starting... isnt this good? we melted down last week when he was benched, now he is starting and some here are melting down about this.... jeez.
I don't think most people melted down because he was benched. Some did. Most melted down because of the unceremonious way in which he was benched. Some people even thought getting Webb in was a good idea.
And then we found Webb wasn't even taking any reps...
It's hard to argue that the Giant's have been all over the place here, and that goes for Mara in addition to McAdoo.
It actually does bother me that his streak went to shit the way it did. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal.. but it still annoys me because it ended as a result of sheer incompetence.
Is not ever going to be an anti thing against Eli. In fact the way it ended may even help Eli's reputation. People will always remember Eli had an ironman streak going and it was ended because of a nonsensical decision by an incompetent coach that was fired less than a week later.
what the heck makes your happy? Eli is starting... isnt this good? we melted down last week when he was benched, now he is starting and some here are melting down about this.... jeez.
And if the Giants lose Eli and everyone sucks but if they win screw them for screwing up the draft position.
It actually does bother me that his streak went to shit the way it did. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal.. but it still annoys me because it ended as a result of sheer incompetence.
Kind of in the same boat. The streak is an accomplishment, and it should be respected, but at the same time, it can't take precedence over a decision that's being made on the franchise level. This whole thing was botched though. It shouldn't have ended that way. I would even go so far as to say that they should have fired him before the game if the last straw was how this was handled, but that would have been total chaos.
If I had been McAdoo, I would have made Eli start Â
What gives him the right to say he doesn't want to play if he can't finish the game? I would have said, "Get your ass in there. The streak's end won't get pinned on me."
RE: RE: Do people still give a crap about the stupid streak? Â
Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
Seriously, does ANYONE anywhere believe that MacMagoo made the decision to sit Eli.? That order came from MARA/TISCH.
MacMagoo still deserved to be fired after SF game
Whoever, you get the point. It's a dumb streak nobody cares about.
Reese picked the kid Webb... he also picked Nassib... think about it. Â
don't get your hopes up too much eli fanboys, this was done purely as a riot and season ticket attrition prevention measure.
Webb has had no reps in practice. McAdoo said as much. You just want to throw the kid in there? You can't seriously be suggesting that career-backup Smith start.
1) Other rookie QB's have come in mid-season and as best as I can tell, the earth hasn't opened up and swallowed us all.
2) Geno - I hate that I sound like I am pulling for him, but the guys has effectively played 2 seasons of football (for the Jets). The idea that he absolutely cannot grow into the position is simply ridiculous and no one on this board is actually smart enough to do anything more than guess. He has all of the physical tools so what you are really talking about it is whether he is coach-able on the areas he needs to improve. Personally I would rather watch him over the next 4 games. We know what Eli is and isn't, and we do not need to risk getting him hurt in meaningless games.
last week, had him split it with Eli. There is no way coaches would just hand him the ball for the rest of the season. Further, Spags was told he's candidate for HC and will be evaluated on remaining games, and Mara told him to go out and win some games. And blame McAdoo for mismanaging Webb's development, not giving him any meaningul practice reps or much playing time in preseason. McAdoo became fixated on proving that Geno Smith was the only missing link for his offense, screw Eli and screw Webb. Webb still may get some game snaps but there's no way the team was going to throw him to the wolves unprepared.
Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
if Webb doesn't see any game time the rest of the way, then what was the reason from ownership down to start Geno vs raiders? huh? I bet no one could honestly explain that one without saying this giants org is totally inept and laughable.
It actually does bother me that his streak went to shit the way it did. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal.. but it still annoys me because it ended as a result of sheer incompetence.
Kind of in the same boat. The streak is an accomplishment, and it should be respected, but at the same time, it can't take precedence over a decision that's being made on the franchise level. This whole thing was botched though. It shouldn't have ended that way. I would even go so far as to say that they should have fired him before the game if the last straw was how this was handled, but that would have been total chaos.
Of course. I never wanted Eli to just keep playing because of the streak. It just annoys me that it ended in a way where it stopped when he wasn't injured, AND that he's starting again the very next week.
It was just such a circus. Never should have went down like that. Eli Manning's iron man streak literally ended so that we could start Geno Smith.
If anyone uttered that sentence at any juncture over the last 3 years, that person would have been looked at like they were an absolute lunatic.
interests of the Giants as a football team over the last four games is to tank and give meaningful playing time to Webb and Smith (as well as young players at other positions).
however, the best interests of the Giants as a business is to not lose the ticket, merchandise and concession revenue or see angry protesting Eli fanboys burning McAdoo effigies with their hot dogs and cheeseburgers at tailgate parties.
interests of the Giants as a football team over the last four games is to tank and give meaningful playing time to Webb and Smith (as well as young players at other positions).
however, the best interests of the Giants as a business is to not lose the ticket, merchandise and concession revenue or see angry protesting Eli fanboys burning McAdoo effigies with their hot dogs and cheeseburgers at tailgate parties.
Les for the record I will be burning my Les in TO effigy...
and pissed the streak ended the way it did just pathetic from an incompetent moron of a coach.
I am surprised they would announce this though given we are playing the role of spoilers hopefully for the Cowboys. They should have said all three will be active make Dallas game plan all three QB’s. It may not mean shit in the end but at least it is a small advantage going into the game.
In regards to Webb playing to see what the team has in him. The state of this team and O-line there is not a QB alive that anyone could get a good sense of what they have; only shatter building confidence from practice is what would happen. At least Eli knows what he has and can work with it Webb at this point can’t and shouldn’t be out there.
overall productivity whether you put in Eli, Geno or Webb.
So I would just try to get Webb some playing time as much as possible over the remainder of the season since the other two have no future value to speak of.
just sayin...
RE: He deserves to get at least an asterisk . . . . Â
Webb should have been elevated to #2 after 0-5. The team looked incredibly and the final record was assured to be awful. He should have been inserted after we were mathematically eliminated. The idea of him playing garbage time is useless. It provides him less meaningful experience than just throwing him to the wolves. They screwed this up so bad. I hope the Browns manage to win 2-3 games.
So why do you think we were a better team at 0-5 Â
I apparently left out a word. That word was "bad". It should have read "incredibly bad". The rest of the sentence doesn't make sense if it was incredible
Hey Eli, you're really our guy, this whole sitting you to play younger guys was all McAdoo's idea, right?
Come on. What's done is done -this doesn't fix anything and the truth is, evaluating the roster was the RIGHT thing to do for the franchise. At least finding a way to get Webb into games.
This nonsense from Mara about being all in on 2017 again is the worst possible outcome. 2017 is lost and priority should be on future. Meaningless wins can't salvage 2017, but they can kill your chances at a QB prospect for the future.
If this tem wins a game or two here on out, we had better sure as hell enjoy it. It may come at a huge price to franchise.
I apparently left out a word. That word was "bad". It should have read "incredibly bad". The rest of the sentence doesn't make sense if it was incredible
I know. My point is still the same...having Webb going in now versus earlier in the season makes no difference. We sucked then and we suck now.
Get the kid into the huddle, have him make some calls at the line, throw a few bad balls and even a few good ones. It will make him that much more comfortable that he did it when next year starts...
I misunderstood. I was fine with that plan, but with Eli starting for the next game or two, I don't see the value in him say starting just the last 2 games. At least if the goal is to evaluate draft needs. 5 games provides a decent sample size.
RE: There will be no discernible difference between the Offense's Â
overall productivity whether you put in Eli, Geno or Webb.
So I would just try to get Webb some playing time as much as possible over the remainder of the season since the other two have no future value to speak of.
just sayin...
Yeah we know keep saying it all you want but it doesn't make it true...
The dallas game is at the Meadowlands(screw met life). The weather will be cold, windy,dank and disgusting. (I really miss NJ) . The perfect time to test Webb's arm strength and running ability.
Throw him in. lets see of he has courage and smarts.
Lets see if he can handle to BOOS and other things that will come his way.
Show us what you got!!!
I misunderstood. I was fine with that plan, but with Eli starting for the next game or two, I don't see the value in him say starting just the last 2 games. At least if the goal is to evaluate draft needs. 5 games provides a decent sample size.
We should still draft who we want. Webb is an asset of the team that needs real playing time to assess his own capabilities and for the team to assess his.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Swami guru Idaho or hole up in a compound and shoot the the black helicopter Idaho? Either is okay by me but for either I’m surprised you’d get direct tv
Swami guru Idaho or hole up in a compound and shoot the the black helicopter Idaho? Either is okay by me but for either I’m surprised you’d get direct tv
Huh?
Not sure I get it (okay, the compound one I get but don't get Swami guru Idaho reference).
Anyway - I just don't get what we're trying to do here. Give Eli a sendoff? I hate what we're seeing from him this year. It sucks. I'd much rather remember him as the guy who made guys like Randle look decent than the guy who can't score TD's. Yes, the entire offense sucks, but that is exactly the reason why I'd rather see the young guy get a shot at it. Who cares if he looks horrible doing it? Are we "saving" him for something in the future? If he sucks, will we not almost definitely draft a better #1?
Just don't see any way this goes well for the franchise UNLESS somehow Eli can give the fans something to cheer for on offense. Based on the collective BBI wisdom that won't happen because NOBODY could play well with what Eli's had to play with. Since we're going to punt 9 times and turn it over another 3-4 times why bother tarnishing Eli's legacy some more or risking an injury to him?
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Dan, you're better than this. You know the qb position can't really function the way things are, whether it's eli or Webb (who i don't think should be in there for his best interest). I think Eli is starting next year as we bring in (via draft) a new beginning.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
With due respect, this is a take I don't really understand.
I think it's clear that they don't feel Davis Webb is ready to play yet. Clearly McAdoo didn't make that any type of priority through the course of the season.
So, if Webb isn't ready, shouldn't Eli continue to play in the interim? Geno has no future here.
There are 3 possibilities when it comes to the Giants QB next year and beyond.
1. Eli Manning
2. Davis Webb
3. A 2018 rookie.. whether that is Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Jackson, etc...
Geno has no short or long-term future here, so there's really no point in continuing to play him.
That leaves Eli and Webb. If Webb isn't ready, Eli is the answer by process of elimination.
The plan from here on out, in my opinion, should be to continue starting Eli. If and when they feel Webb is ready, they can work him into games if the score gets out of hand or the game no longer seems winnable.
I do believe there can be negative implications if you force a rookie QB into action before he's ready. Especially under really shitty circumstances.
Most of us probably do want to see him play - but not if it's "just because." He needs to be adequately prepared and based on everything that went on with McAdoo, I'm not sure he's there yet.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Dan, you're better than this. You know the qb position can't really function the way things are, whether it's eli or Webb (who i don't think should be in there for his best interest). I think Eli is starting next year as we bring in (via draft) a new beginning.
I agree with you - which is why it makes absolutely no sense to me to put Eli back in. What do we have to gain from it? Do we want to have the fans booing him (and the offense) again?
What will we do if Eli gets a serious injury that costs him parts of next offseason or heaven forbid, parts of the season? What will we have gained?
We will have placated the mob who was in an uproar over how Eli was treated is the only answer I can come up with.
Frustrated right now, so I may be out of character a bit.
All I know about Idaho is I thought it’s where the hippie culty things are or the right wing isolationists.
Since I didn’t think there was any purpose to not playing Eli, I’m not upset that they will bring him back. I think that whatever they do at this point in the season is meaningless. But different people can feel differently.
Jesus, the Giants could fuck up a wet dream.
Unless plan is to send Webb in at half, this is beyond stupid
You can blame McAdoo for the lack of development of Webb for his lack of preparedness. Eli should be playing. Webb can beat out Geno Smith for the back up spot and you want him to start? With no WR, running game and a shit O Line?
Then you will say Gosh Webb Sucks when he gets his opportunity.
You're completely missing the point. No one wants Webb to start to win the game for us. They want him to start to see what he's got. You can only evaluate a player so much in practice situations. Nothing is like a real game. This is absolutely a dumb move by the Giants which is only being done to quell the emotions of the fanbase. This does the organization absolutely zero good. If Webb plays these last few games and completely sucks, then great, we know what we are working with.
the thing is that Geno might be re-signed next year. We will most certainly need a fourth QB for camp, and that will likely be a vet. We should have a real competition for the backup job next year, unless we believe the draftee is going to be ready day one.
Also, we have nothing to gain from "saving" Webb. Nothing. He needs to get thrown into the fire, imo. Eli did it, took a big-time hit in his first game against Philly iirc, and he came out okay. Why not give Webb some playing time.
I liked the original plan and was disappointed that it fell through. I don't mind Eli starting, but how do you possibly pull him now? And if the org (including the owners) thought it a good idea to see how the backups could do then, what has changed?
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Dan, you're better than this. You know the qb position can't really function the way things are, whether it's eli or Webb (who i don't think should be in there for his best interest). I think Eli is starting next year as we bring in (via draft) a new beginning.
I agree with you - which is why it makes absolutely no sense to me to put Eli back in. What do we have to gain from it? Do we want to have the fans booing him (and the offense) again?
What will we do if Eli gets a serious injury that costs him parts of next offseason or heaven forbid, parts of the season? What will we have gained?
We will have placated the mob who was in an uproar over how Eli was treated is the only answer I can come up with.
Frustrated right now, so I may be out of character a bit.
Dan, I think the Giants want Eli back next year, and this is the best way to go about it. I can't see the new HC or gm wanting to get rid of manning.
Yaah...Eli is starting again next week! That will really help us Â
All I know about Idaho is I thought it’s where the hippie culty things are or the right wing isolationists.
Since I didn’t think there was any purpose to not playing Eli, I’m not upset that they will bring him back. I think that whatever they do at this point in the season is meaningless. But different people can feel differently.
Ahhh - got you. Yes there are some hippie culty things going on. Also the compound-types.
There's also the big sky, beautiful mountains, low tax rates (property taxes low - not the individual tax rates though) and low prices on just about everything else. In today's internet age and with the low cost of travel, Idaho made sense as a final resting stop after a transfer from my days in the banking industry.
Dan, I think the Giants want Eli back next year, and this is the best way to go about it. I can't see the new HC or gm wanting to get rid of manning.
So we go into camp with Eli, draftee, and Webb. Don't we need a fourth QB? Should it be a vet, or should we just trust the young guys with virtually no experience?
Why not let Webb and Geno duke it out? Literally, what do we have to lose by this other than some upset fans?
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
As long as they win, I think most of us will be okay with it. If we get a repeat of opening night (or worse) I can't see how we gain anything at all by starting Eli. Give me one thing we will have gained so I can understand it.
the thing is that Geno might be re-signed next year. We will most certainly need a fourth QB for camp, and that will likely be a vet. We should have a real competition for the backup job next year, unless we believe the draftee is going to be ready day one.
Also, we have nothing to gain from "saving" Webb. Nothing. He needs to get thrown into the fire, imo. Eli did it, took a big-time hit in his first game against Philly iirc, and he came out okay. Why not give Webb some playing time.
I liked the original plan and was disappointed that it fell through. I don't mind Eli starting, but how do you possibly pull him now? And if the org (including the owners) thought it a good idea to see how the backups could do then, what has changed?
Don't get it, big mistake.
We know what Geno is at this point. If they want to re-sign him, it's not like that's off the table. Is anyone really worried about losing Geno Smith?
Rookie Eli and rookie Webb are very different cases.
Eli was the #1 pick. He was taken to be the guy and everyone knew and expected that. Webb was taken in the 3rd round and is more of a project. He doesn't have the pedigree that suggests you can just "throw him into the fire."
And some fans seem annoyed with this notion and poo-poo it, but I do think restoring goodwill with Eli is important so that he remains an option next year should things unfold in a way that lends itself to that.
The last thing we want to do right now is burn bridges.
In 2004, it was known that Eli was going to play as soon as Warner stumbled. That was sort of a given from the start.
For Webb, this was supposed to really be a redshirt year. This staff has not been preparing him to play this season. Not until very recently. I think you need to be careful about just throwing a guy like that onto the field when he's underprepared. He doesn't have Eli's college resume or bloodline - I wouldn't compare the two as apples to apples. I think they're quite different.
I get that everyone wants to see Webb play. And I still think it's possible to get him reps later this month without creating another sour situation with Eli. But there's no reason to force him out there.
Let's not get hung up on who is likely to be kept. All tendencies and patterns that we use to make guesses with might as well get flushed down the toilet.
Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
RE: So lets just say the score of the next 4 games going into 4th QTR Â
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
The qb isn't the problem with this offense, putting Webb doesn't mean it'll yield positive results with his growth as a qb. The line, the wr's and the scheme all seem to be a big mess, why put a green qb in to deal with that? That sounds like setting a player up to fail.
RE: RE: There will be no discernible difference between the Offense's Â
overall productivity whether you put in Eli, Geno or Webb.
So I would just try to get Webb some playing time as much as possible over the remainder of the season since the other two have no future value to speak of.
just sayin...
Yeah we know keep saying it all you want but it doesn't make it true...
At least now that your silly wish came true, you can stop calling people shitstains.
Maybe now you can learn how to value the long-term best interests of the team.
RE: Yaah...Eli is starting again next week! That will really help us Â
Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
RE: So lets just say the score of the next 4 games going into 4th QTR Â
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
If winning is what it's supposed to be about, then Â
personally I would have preferred we just play out the games without subjecting Eli to a possible benching because the game "got out of hand" or even allowing him to finish games because the defense has kept him in it.
Here's what I think/worry will happen.
Eli will start and play all the remaining games. The offense will struggle and Eli will look terrible. A new coach and GM will decide to go in a different direction. Another ugly divorce and more drama as Eli is let go from the Giants.
Eli's last games played here will continue a different streak - the number of games without any significant kind of offensive success.
The last meaningful game we played where Eli looked like the guy who could win a close game late for us was vs. Philly last year when he threw four TD's. I'll be happy if we can see that from him even one more time, win or lose. I just don't really believe we'll have a chance to see this again.
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
Honestly, if the people we bring in here judge Eli entirely based on what he does down the stretch of a season like this that spiraled completely out of control and became an absolute circus, I'm going to be pretty worried that we hired the wrong ones.
I don't think any decisions should be made based on the QB play we see behind an injured, shitty offensive line with the DC serving as an interim HC.
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
As long as they win, I think most of us will be okay with it. If we get a repeat of opening night (or worse) I can't see how we gain anything at all by starting Eli. Give me one thing we will have gained so I can understand it.
What do we gain by winning? Seriously - how does it help?
The same people saying how important it is to win these games Â
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
We've been a horrible football team all year long. We've won 2 games. Suddenly we're going to start winning? Why?
This team sucks. Eli isn't going to change that. We lost 9 of the 11 games he started and the two teams we beat have been awful ever since.
I'm not worried about suddenly winning games now, nor should anyone else. The Giants are a bad team. We don't need to play Webb to ensure that we lose games and that shouldn't be the primary motivation anyway.
RE: RE: So lets just say the score of the next 4 games going into 4th QTR Â
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
And how exactly is that any different than those who want to see Eli play for the sake of seeing him?
The only thing Eli can possibly accomplish at this point is screwing up the draft position.
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
We've been a horrible football team all year long. We've won 2 games. Suddenly we're going to start winning? Why?
This team sucks. Eli isn't going to change that. We lost 9 of the 11 games he started and the two teams we beat have been awful ever since.
I'm not worried about suddenly winning games now, nor should anyone else. The Giants are a bad team. We don't need to play Webb to ensure that we lose games and that shouldn't be the primary motivation anyway.
With an interim coach bounce and the return of Eli? Yes, it's very possible they could win 1-2 games that will ultimately screw up the long-term opportunity that is currently in the Giants' lap.
What's the benefit of playing Eli? Don't you think he makes it more likely that the Giants win? If you can honestly say no, then I'll just turn around and ask why you'd play a soon-to-be 37 year old QB in the first place.
personally I would have preferred we just play out the games without subjecting Eli to a possible benching because the game "got out of hand" or even allowing him to finish games because the defense has kept him in it.
Here's what I think/worry will happen.
Eli will start and play all the remaining games. The offense will struggle and Eli will look terrible. A new coach and GM will decide to go in a different direction. Another ugly divorce and more drama as Eli is let go from the Giants.
Eli's last games played here will continue a different streak - the number of games without any significant kind of offensive success.
The last meaningful game we played where Eli looked like the guy who could win a close game late for us was vs. Philly last year when he threw four TD's. I'll be happy if we can see that from him even one more time, win or lose. I just don't really believe we'll have a chance to see this again.
Oh, the humanity! A new coach and GM might decide that it's time to move on from a 37 year old QB who looked terrible and represents a $20MM+ cap hit. Do you really think it's prudent to bet on it being all the other factors having to line up just right, or do you think a new regime just embraces a full rebuild either way?
I think it's almost certainly the latter (which is also why they already put the blood on McAdoo's hands for breaking the streak), which is why it makes the most sense to give them the most valuable draft position to do so.
I guess the coaches that remain pretty clearly disagreed with McAdoo's Â
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
I still don't understand why people think this team is suddenly going to be good or win games because Eli is back under center.
What changed? This has been a putrid football team in turmoil all year long. Suddenly we're going to start beating everyone?
I don't want to see Eli for the sake of seeing him - I want him to play if Webb isn't ready to play because it makes the most sense.
I'm not one of the fans saying they want to see wins or finish strong. But if Davis Webb isn't ready to play yet, he shouldn't play.
Unless you're really pining for Geno to continue playing... which I really wouldn't understand at all.
I'm pining for the best chance at the best possible draft pick. Do you think Eli gives them a better chance to win than Geno?
If so, he's a risk to interfere with the long-term opportunity. If not, is it just about sentimentality? Because there's definitely a handful of people on this thread alone who don't seem to understand the long-term implications of the next month.
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
and if they like it, maybe they can lose for money going forward.
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
and if they like it, maybe they can lose for money going forward.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.
The Eli era is coming to a close whether we like it or not. He's about to turn 37 and is in some level of physical decline. We have an amazingly fortunate opportunity to transition to a new era with (hopefully) no trough in between franchise QBs, like so many teams suffer through.
If you'd rather win a few meaningless games that end up making us lose many more meaningful games in the future, all I can say is that I passionately disagree with your point of view.
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
There's no way to quantify that or answer it factually. It would just be an opinion.
The offense looked equally uninspiring with both Geno and Eli because we have arena league WR's and an offensive line that can't block. The circumstances are such that I honestly don't think it makes a measurable difference.
We only needed 12 points to beat Kansas City a few weeks ago. We could win a flukey game with either player. Starting Geno doesn't guarantee anything aside from completely burning our bridges with Eli and eliminating the option to have him return next year.
And yes, I'd like to keep that option open if given the choice because it provides more flexibility going forward.
Spags wants to win and he clearly thinks Eli gives him the best chance to win. Rightfully so.
Ownership was tired of the losing and wants to still try to win every game.
Having said that, I wish McAdoo hadn't been fired because I preferred losing but seeing what we had in the other QB's. I don't worry about the development of Webb. I don't think we're going to ruin a 3rd round pick by giving him some snaps now. Why do we bother giving them snaps in preseason when they have the worst OL's and running games in the league? To develop them and evaluate them.
Like others here, I don't think we're going to produce offensively no matter who is under center. I'd prefer it not be Eli because the games are more interesting with young talent - at least you can see who is on the bench. I also don't savor the notion of Eli playing another quarter season of putrid football. Finally, I don't see what we have to gain by playing Eli at this point.
If you're a fan of Eli and want him around next year why risk injuring him in these meaningless games?
If you're not a fan of Eli (at this point) and are ready to move on, why have Eli start these meaningless games?
I can only see one condition - that you want to win these games (like Spags does) and you believe that Eli can help you get that done. This is the only real reason I believe you should really start Eli throughout.
And I don't get the uproar over the original plan of starting Eli but bringing in the backups later in the game vs. starting Eli and pulling him because the game is out of hand (signaling a lack of confidence in Eli's ability to pull out a win). The second would certainly be more painful and disrespectful to Eli, imo. Eli - we planned to have you in the game but since we're doing nothing with you on offense we're going to take you out and see what we got with someone else. YIKES!
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
There's no way to quantify that or answer it factually. It would just be an opinion.
The offense looked equally uninspiring with both Geno and Eli because we have arena league WR's and an offensive line that can't block. The circumstances are such that I honestly don't think it makes a measurable difference.
We only needed 12 points to beat Kansas City a few weeks ago. We could win a flukey game with either player. Starting Geno doesn't guarantee anything aside from completely burning our bridges with Eli and eliminating the option to have him return next year.
And yes, I'd like to keep that option open if given the choice because it provides more flexibility going forward.
Fair enough, and I can appreciate that alone as a reason.
My opinion is that they're very likely to part ways with Eli either way, especially after this past week, but not necessarily because Eli won't want to come back (although who knows if he will), but because I think a new regime is likely to have extreme reservations about repeating the circus that this past week became.
And that would be the ultimate O. Henry level irony - all of the fan outrage that went down this past week could ultimately affect the next regime's willingness to keep Eli and risk going through it again.
Spags coaching to win the last four games, to try and win himself the head job. Playing an aging known quantity in a lost season while a young, promising player continues to watch. I can see it now, Abrams/Spags GM/HC combo.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Go look at history of teams that struggled with good established veteran qbs. They never sat the qb. Never. That's one of the reasons why mcadoo was fired. Or I should say the decision to bench Eli for smith was indicative of a lost head coach.
They never sit the vet qb unless the young qb is highly regarded. I
My opinion is that they're very likely to part ways with Eli either way, especially after this past week, but not necessarily because Eli won't want to come back (although who knows if he will), but because I think a new regime is likely to have extreme reservations about repeating the circus that this past week became.
And that would be the ultimate O. Henry level irony - all of the fan outrage that went down this past week could ultimately affect the next regime's willingness to keep Eli and risk going through it again.
I couldn't agree more - although I'm with Arc personally in that I'm okay with keeping Eli around, I don't really see a reason that the new regime will want to do the same. They've got to make the right decisions with regards to QB and would rather go through some growing pains with the new talent at QB than deal with benching Eli at some point in the near future.
And of course, there is the possibility that they want to simply change offensive philosophies and go with a more mobile QB. They may feel that Eli doesn't fit with that philosophy.
You could be right - obviously that will all depend on who we bring in, but sure, it's absolutely possible they feel that way.
To be clear, there are fans who actually want to see the Giants win these games - I'm not one of those. I want the better pick. I just really think we'll keep losing even if we start Eli, and I figure if there's a chance to salvage the relationship, it's worth doing in the event that the following regime feels Eli is still someone they want to be a part of their plans going forward.
Ideally, I'd like for Eli to prove he's still got a little something left while we simultaneously lose out. It'll be hard for both things to happen together, but that's my hope.
I'm just tired of the circus atmosphere at this point.
Spags coaching to win the last four games, to try and win himself the head job. Playing an aging known quantity in a lost season while a young, promising player continues to watch. I can see it now, Abrams/Spags GM/HC combo.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Go look at history of teams that struggled with good established veteran qbs. They never sat the qb. Never. That's one of the reasons why mcadoo was fired. Or I should say the decision to bench Eli for smith was indicative of a lost head coach.
They never sit the vet qb unless the young qb is highly regarded. I
At least the Broncos had the good sense to pretend that Peyton was injured in 2015 when they benched him.
Geno had his start.
Davis is the one who (appropriately) will have fewer starts.
The NYGs should jettison Geno (so he can compete as BU on another team) and start a REAL evaluation of Davis (vs a high draft choice if they go that way) next spring. Even if not #1, Webb should be a solid #2 with proper coaching, or even have trade value.
but we can enjoy Eli's goodbye tour . At worst it delays the rebuild a year or so
You're right. Delaying the rebuild a year or so is the worst. We should avoid that. Stop patching holes on a broken product and start the rebuild ASAP.
I don't think anyone should be worrying about this team going on a mini 4 game tear to finish off this nonsense season. No way they're beating Dallas or Philly.
Dallas game- the Giants will likely keep it close but will lose the game in the fourth quarter or win in OT.
Philly game- I actually think the Rams will manhandle Philly out there with that LA front four. Philly is going to come back to NJ, pissed off and Wentz will go back to looking like an all star again throwing 4 touchdowns, Eagles will be the darlings of the NFL after winning 44-3 and everyone will slurp them up again because they beat another moron team.
Arizona game- Go back to where Super Bowl 42 was in a white jersey #10 one last time. Giants win 13-10.
Washington game - lose something like 21-10. Eli's last game as a Giants player/starter or whatever. Have Coughlin and others greet him to send him off.
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
You miss the point. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by playing Eli. Nothing.
therefore you play Webb...
RE: Imagine next year will be the same as this year Â
It will again on Sunday when the fans get aging and immobile Eli back with an incompetent OL, the same lack of offensive firepower, the same coach calling the plays, and an opponent that is a desperate team trying to make the playoffs, with an improving and aggressive defense. I really hope I am wrong but in my mind the Giants continue their losing streak--on and off the field --with another bad decision. They blew it on how they benched Eli, and now they are reinserting him as a weak, face-saving measure when they really need to know what they have behind him on the bench before the off-season.
Regardless of who plays QB, they chances of them improving Â
their record enough to fall out of the blue-chip QB range are virtually non-existent.
So, come up with a scenario where they do *not* take the blue-chip QB. I will tell you that it's fanciful. A responsible franchise would do nothing else but take a potential franchise QB.
I'm not wed to playing Eli but there is really no rational reason not to, other than the philosophy where everyone gets to play and we all have oranges at half-time. There nothing to learn because, given their record, nothing will change their draft strategy. And they know it.
about this thing, is it just seems so reactionary, which typically hasn't been the Giants style, and imo is a poor way to run any program.
You made a decision and you back the decision. Why? Because you believed it was best for the organization. Now, after terminating two people, you're going to back off that decision. But what has changed? Only the head coach and GM. And yet Mara claims it was as much his idea that the QB's needed to be evaluated as anyone. So he no longer cares enough to do that?
about this thing, is it just seems so reactionary, which typically hasn't been the Giants style, and imo is a poor way to run any program.
You made a decision and you back the decision. Why? Because you believed it was best for the organization. Now, after terminating two people, you're going to back off that decision. But what has changed? Only the head coach and GM. And yet Mara claims it was as much his idea that the QB's needed to be evaluated as anyone. So he no longer cares enough to do that?
I guess the only consistent thing is that Mara was always in favour of the plan to let Eli start the rest of the season and work in Geno and Davis into the game, depending on the situation of the game (as opposed to McAdoo putting a hard stop of the transition at halftime). Maybe that is still the plan.
However, if the plan going forward is to let Eli play the entire game for the rest of the season, then that is clearly a populist reactionary decision that is intended to appease the fanboys and reduce protests/incremental bad PR/hate mail at the expense of evaluating the backups. It's like when Coke introduced New Coke and then quickly yanked it after customer anger.
RE: RE: Do people still give a crap about the stupid streak? Â
Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
Seriously, does ANYONE anywhere believe that MacMagoo made the decision to sit Eli.? That order came from MARA/TISCH.
MacMagoo still deserved to be fired after SF game
Mcadoo is the one who screwed it up!
RE: RE: RE: Do people still give a crap about the stupid streak? Â
Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
Seriously, does ANYONE anywhere believe that MacMagoo made the decision to sit Eli.? That order came from MARA/TISCH.
MacMagoo still deserved to be fired after SF game
Mcadoo is the one who screwed it up!
John Mara admitted that he signed off on EXACTLY the plan that McAdoo presented Eli with.
RE: RE: RE: So lets just say the score of the next 4 games going into 4th QTR Â
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
You miss the point. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by playing Eli. Nothing.
therefore you play Webb...
Actually, there is - and I mentioned it several times already.
Webb needs to be ready to play and McAdoo did not intend on playing him at all this season, so there was very little preparation done in that regard.
You don't just throw him out there for the sake of doing it. He's a rookie that was supposed to be redshirted this year and was thought to be a little bit of a project.
There's nothing to be gained by throwing him to the wolves before he's ready, either. And there's a good chance that's the case.
RE: RE: Another thing that bothers me so much... Â
about this thing, is it just seems so reactionary, which typically hasn't been the Giants style, and imo is a poor way to run any program.
You made a decision and you back the decision. Why? Because you believed it was best for the organization. Now, after terminating two people, you're going to back off that decision. But what has changed? Only the head coach and GM. And yet Mara claims it was as much his idea that the QB's needed to be evaluated as anyone. So he no longer cares enough to do that?
I guess the only consistent thing is that Mara was always in favour of the plan to let Eli start the rest of the season and work in Geno and Davis into the game, depending on the situation of the game (as opposed to McAdoo putting a hard stop of the transition at halftime). Maybe that is still the plan.
However, if the plan going forward is to let Eli play the entire game for the rest of the season, then that is clearly a populist reactionary decision that is intended to appease the fanboys and reduce protests/incremental bad PR/hate mail at the expense of evaluating the backups. It's like when Coke introduced New Coke and then quickly yanked it after customer anger.
Mara signed off on McAdoo's plan.
Quote:
Q: Were you aware of Ben’s plan to start and play Eli for the first half, and Geno in the second before he actually went and presented it to Eli?
A: That seems to be the focus of everybody’s attention right now. The plan was, Ben was going to talk to Eli and tell him that he was going to start and play the first half and Geno would play the second half. I signed off on that. But, again, my hope was two things: one, that I was going to speak to Ben and try to get him to be a little bit more flexible about that all. I do not like interfering with coaching decisions about who’s going to play, I’ve never done that before. I also, as I said I think the other day to you guys, was hoping that Eli would be playing so well, it’d be impossible to take him out. In any event, it is where it is and you ought to stop blaming Ben and Jerry on that. If you want to blame me, go ahead and do it. I certainly have the power to overrule them if I wanted to, I chose not to do it.
But i disagree. You guys kill me with this "ready". Â
We have a fairly simple offense and not a whole of options to it anyway. Webb doesn't need to learn the Eli playbook. He need to knwo how to get under center. He needs to know how to make a few checks at the line. He needs to know how to set his RB to handle a potential blitz.
In the end he needs to know how to hand off the ball 2 out of every 3 plays and make a few slant passes and fades.
Every now and then he will have to scramble, and evey now and then he will need to go down and take a sack.
If he is brave, then maybe he will stand in there...so lets see it.
Someone help me out here to understand all of this because I do not watch college football (nor do I have any interest to start checking it out) and I don't really want to spend my time reading 87 stupid mock drafts a few weeks before Christmas; but is there only ONE stud/can't miss QB in this upcoming draft or something?
I'm asking for the reason Gatorade (and others) is paranoid now "Manning is back and how this will derail us for a good draft spot with too many wins".
Is there a Peyton Manning/Andrew Luck type as far as QBs are related in the 2018 draft, and that's it? I think the Browns are locked in for that #1 pick, they're not winning any games this year. #0-16..
The Giants will get a good pick (they already have 10 losses) and hey it won't be Reese making the choice this time around. Hooray?
Unless plan is to send Webb in at half, this is beyond stupid
Draft a QB high if there is one you like, continue on with Manning until it's time for the new qb
Unless plan is to send Webb in at half, this is beyond stupid
You can blame McAdoo for the lack of development of Webb for his lack of preparedness. Eli should be playing. Webb can beat out Geno Smith for the back up spot and you want him to start? With no WR, running game and a shit O Line?
Then you will say Gosh Webb Sucks when he gets his opportunity.
Just what the doctor ordered.
In the hearts and minds of all Giant fans at least.
"Eli, get an extra wastebasket from next door, we gotta go through the playbook".
Seriously, does ANYONE anywhere believe that MacMagoo made the decision to sit Eli.? That order came from MARA/TISCH.
MacMagoo still deserved to be fired after SF game
+1000 points
I was perfectly fine with Eli going to the bench and transitioning to the young guys. Not for a second did I have a problem with it. Just how it was presented. Mara should have done it from the outset.
I don't think most people melted down because he was benched. Some did. Most melted down because of the unceremonious way in which he was benched. Some people even thought getting Webb in was a good idea.
And then we found Webb wasn't even taking any reps...
It's hard to argue that the Giant's have been all over the place here, and that goes for Mara in addition to McAdoo.
Unless plan is to send Webb in at half, this is beyond stupid
What is beyond stupid would be to have a rookie play with that OL, and that group of WR and RB...
Have him play in mop up duty? Sure. But start a game?!?!
And if the Giants lose Eli and everyone sucks but if they win screw them for screwing up the draft position.
this.
Kind of in the same boat. The streak is an accomplishment, and it should be respected, but at the same time, it can't take precedence over a decision that's being made on the franchise level. This whole thing was botched though. It shouldn't have ended that way. I would even go so far as to say that they should have fired him before the game if the last straw was how this was handled, but that would have been total chaos.
Quote:
Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
Seriously, does ANYONE anywhere believe that MacMagoo made the decision to sit Eli.? That order came from MARA/TISCH.
MacMagoo still deserved to be fired after SF game
Whoever, you get the point. It's a dumb streak nobody cares about.
This is the correct move.
2) Geno - I hate that I sound like I am pulling for him, but the guys has effectively played 2 seasons of football (for the Jets). The idea that he absolutely cannot grow into the position is simply ridiculous and no one on this board is actually smart enough to do anything more than guess. He has all of the physical tools so what you are really talking about it is whether he is coach-able on the areas he needs to improve. Personally I would rather watch him over the next 4 games. We know what Eli is and isn't, and we do not need to risk getting him hurt in meaningless games.
Unless plan is to send Webb in at half, this is beyond stupid
Yep...getting an unprepared rookie destroyed on every play is crucial to his development.
Did you ask Eli this personally?
Draft a QB high if there is one you like, continue on with Manning until it's time for the new qb
They'll certainly be picking one in the upcoming draft.
I have no idea how it could have been better, but I'm pretty sure it couldn't have been worse.
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It actually does bother me that his streak went to shit the way it did. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal.. but it still annoys me because it ended as a result of sheer incompetence.
Kind of in the same boat. The streak is an accomplishment, and it should be respected, but at the same time, it can't take precedence over a decision that's being made on the franchise level. This whole thing was botched though. It shouldn't have ended that way. I would even go so far as to say that they should have fired him before the game if the last straw was how this was handled, but that would have been total chaos.
Of course. I never wanted Eli to just keep playing because of the streak. It just annoys me that it ended in a way where it stopped when he wasn't injured, AND that he's starting again the very next week.
It was just such a circus. Never should have went down like that. Eli Manning's iron man streak literally ended so that we could start Geno Smith.
If anyone uttered that sentence at any juncture over the last 3 years, that person would have been looked at like they were an absolute lunatic.
however, the best interests of the Giants as a business is to not lose the ticket, merchandise and concession revenue or see angry protesting Eli fanboys burning McAdoo effigies with their hot dogs and cheeseburgers at tailgate parties.
however, the best interests of the Giants as a business is to not lose the ticket, merchandise and concession revenue or see angry protesting Eli fanboys burning McAdoo effigies with their hot dogs and cheeseburgers at tailgate parties.
Les for the record I will be burning my Les in TO effigy...
I say pretty high..................
I am surprised they would announce this though given we are playing the role of spoilers hopefully for the Cowboys. They should have said all three will be active make Dallas game plan all three QB’s. It may not mean shit in the end but at least it is a small advantage going into the game.
In regards to Webb playing to see what the team has in him. The state of this team and O-line there is not a QB alive that anyone could get a good sense of what they have; only shatter building confidence from practice is what would happen. At least Eli knows what he has and can work with it Webb at this point can’t and shouldn’t be out there.
I, uh, just can't. Thank God Slick is gone.
I don t think Eli agrees though
So I would just try to get Webb some playing time as much as possible over the remainder of the season since the other two have no future value to speak of.
just sayin...
He doesn't have a record. Brett Favre has a record.
I say pretty high..................
How about after his first pick or dink down on third and 15? Will they be doing hand stands or bouncing the ball off their noses?
Can't believe Geno's streak is being broken by an interim head coach.
(hint: we weren't)
I think he was happy to pass his brother. Everything else would have been gravy.
I hate to throw him a bone but that old silly bastard's posting has been insanely great these past few weeks. Ugh.
Come on. What's done is done -this doesn't fix anything and the truth is, evaluating the roster was the RIGHT thing to do for the franchise. At least finding a way to get Webb into games.
This nonsense from Mara about being all in on 2017 again is the worst possible outcome. 2017 is lost and priority should be on future. Meaningless wins can't salvage 2017, but they can kill your chances at a QB prospect for the future.
If this tem wins a game or two here on out, we had better sure as hell enjoy it. It may come at a huge price to franchise.
I know. My point is still the same...having Webb going in now versus earlier in the season makes no difference. We sucked then and we suck now.
Get the kid into the huddle, have him make some calls at the line, throw a few bad balls and even a few good ones. It will make him that much more comfortable that he did it when next year starts...
So I would just try to get Webb some playing time as much as possible over the remainder of the season since the other two have no future value to speak of.
just sayin...
Yeah we know keep saying it all you want but it doesn't make it true...
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I hate to throw him a bone but that old silly bastard's posting has been insanely great these past few weeks. Ugh.
I am many things - old is NOT one of them!
Alright... I'm getting a little old.
Throw him in. lets see of he has courage and smarts.
Lets see if he can handle to BOOS and other things that will come his way.
Show us what you got!!!
We should still draft who we want. Webb is an asset of the team that needs real playing time to assess his own capabilities and for the team to assess his.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Huh?
Not sure I get it (okay, the compound one I get but don't get Swami guru Idaho reference).
Anyway - I just don't get what we're trying to do here. Give Eli a sendoff? I hate what we're seeing from him this year. It sucks. I'd much rather remember him as the guy who made guys like Randle look decent than the guy who can't score TD's. Yes, the entire offense sucks, but that is exactly the reason why I'd rather see the young guy get a shot at it. Who cares if he looks horrible doing it? Are we "saving" him for something in the future? If he sucks, will we not almost definitely draft a better #1?
Just don't see any way this goes well for the franchise UNLESS somehow Eli can give the fans something to cheer for on offense. Based on the collective BBI wisdom that won't happen because NOBODY could play well with what Eli's had to play with. Since we're going to punt 9 times and turn it over another 3-4 times why bother tarnishing Eli's legacy some more or risking an injury to him?
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Dan, you're better than this. You know the qb position can't really function the way things are, whether it's eli or Webb (who i don't think should be in there for his best interest). I think Eli is starting next year as we bring in (via draft) a new beginning.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
With due respect, this is a take I don't really understand.
I think it's clear that they don't feel Davis Webb is ready to play yet. Clearly McAdoo didn't make that any type of priority through the course of the season.
So, if Webb isn't ready, shouldn't Eli continue to play in the interim? Geno has no future here.
There are 3 possibilities when it comes to the Giants QB next year and beyond.
1. Eli Manning
2. Davis Webb
3. A 2018 rookie.. whether that is Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Jackson, etc...
Geno has no short or long-term future here, so there's really no point in continuing to play him.
That leaves Eli and Webb. If Webb isn't ready, Eli is the answer by process of elimination.
The plan from here on out, in my opinion, should be to continue starting Eli. If and when they feel Webb is ready, they can work him into games if the score gets out of hand or the game no longer seems winnable.
I do believe there can be negative implications if you force a rookie QB into action before he's ready. Especially under really shitty circumstances.
Most of us probably do want to see him play - but not if it's "just because." He needs to be adequately prepared and based on everything that went on with McAdoo, I'm not sure he's there yet.
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not thrilled with this development.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Dan, you're better than this. You know the qb position can't really function the way things are, whether it's eli or Webb (who i don't think should be in there for his best interest). I think Eli is starting next year as we bring in (via draft) a new beginning.
I agree with you - which is why it makes absolutely no sense to me to put Eli back in. What do we have to gain from it? Do we want to have the fans booing him (and the offense) again?
What will we do if Eli gets a serious injury that costs him parts of next offseason or heaven forbid, parts of the season? What will we have gained?
We will have placated the mob who was in an uproar over how Eli was treated is the only answer I can come up with.
Frustrated right now, so I may be out of character a bit.
Since I didn’t think there was any purpose to not playing Eli, I’m not upset that they will bring him back. I think that whatever they do at this point in the season is meaningless. But different people can feel differently.
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Jesus, the Giants could fuck up a wet dream.
Unless plan is to send Webb in at half, this is beyond stupid
You can blame McAdoo for the lack of development of Webb for his lack of preparedness. Eli should be playing. Webb can beat out Geno Smith for the back up spot and you want him to start? With no WR, running game and a shit O Line?
Then you will say Gosh Webb Sucks when he gets his opportunity.
You're completely missing the point. No one wants Webb to start to win the game for us. They want him to start to see what he's got. You can only evaluate a player so much in practice situations. Nothing is like a real game. This is absolutely a dumb move by the Giants which is only being done to quell the emotions of the fanbase. This does the organization absolutely zero good. If Webb plays these last few games and completely sucks, then great, we know what we are working with.
Also, we have nothing to gain from "saving" Webb. Nothing. He needs to get thrown into the fire, imo. Eli did it, took a big-time hit in his first game against Philly iirc, and he came out okay. Why not give Webb some playing time.
I liked the original plan and was disappointed that it fell through. I don't mind Eli starting, but how do you possibly pull him now? And if the org (including the owners) thought it a good idea to see how the backups could do then, what has changed?
Don't get it, big mistake.
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In comment 13726502 Dan in the Springs said:
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not thrilled with this development.
Eli better damn well win the game then. At the least give us a decent offensive showing. I don't want to boo Eli off the field in his final games, but if he's out there giving us the stinkers we've seen under him the past several games he's going to hear it from me, and I live in Idaho.
Dan, you're better than this. You know the qb position can't really function the way things are, whether it's eli or Webb (who i don't think should be in there for his best interest). I think Eli is starting next year as we bring in (via draft) a new beginning.
I agree with you - which is why it makes absolutely no sense to me to put Eli back in. What do we have to gain from it? Do we want to have the fans booing him (and the offense) again?
What will we do if Eli gets a serious injury that costs him parts of next offseason or heaven forbid, parts of the season? What will we have gained?
We will have placated the mob who was in an uproar over how Eli was treated is the only answer I can come up with.
Frustrated right now, so I may be out of character a bit.
Dan, I think the Giants want Eli back next year, and this is the best way to go about it. I can't see the new HC or gm wanting to get rid of manning.
Since I didn’t think there was any purpose to not playing Eli, I’m not upset that they will bring him back. I think that whatever they do at this point in the season is meaningless. But different people can feel differently.
Ahhh - got you. Yes there are some hippie culty things going on. Also the compound-types.
There's also the big sky, beautiful mountains, low tax rates (property taxes low - not the individual tax rates though) and low prices on just about everything else. In today's internet age and with the low cost of travel, Idaho made sense as a final resting stop after a transfer from my days in the banking industry.
Dan, I think the Giants want Eli back next year, and this is the best way to go about it. I can't see the new HC or gm wanting to get rid of manning.
So we go into camp with Eli, draftee, and Webb. Don't we need a fourth QB? Should it be a vet, or should we just trust the young guys with virtually no experience?
Why not let Webb and Geno duke it out? Literally, what do we have to lose by this other than some upset fans?
As long as they win, I think most of us will be okay with it. If we get a repeat of opening night (or worse) I can't see how we gain anything at all by starting Eli. Give me one thing we will have gained so I can understand it.
Also, we have nothing to gain from "saving" Webb. Nothing. He needs to get thrown into the fire, imo. Eli did it, took a big-time hit in his first game against Philly iirc, and he came out okay. Why not give Webb some playing time.
I liked the original plan and was disappointed that it fell through. I don't mind Eli starting, but how do you possibly pull him now? And if the org (including the owners) thought it a good idea to see how the backups could do then, what has changed?
Don't get it, big mistake.
We know what Geno is at this point. If they want to re-sign him, it's not like that's off the table. Is anyone really worried about losing Geno Smith?
Rookie Eli and rookie Webb are very different cases.
Eli was the #1 pick. He was taken to be the guy and everyone knew and expected that. Webb was taken in the 3rd round and is more of a project. He doesn't have the pedigree that suggests you can just "throw him into the fire."
And some fans seem annoyed with this notion and poo-poo it, but I do think restoring goodwill with Eli is important so that he remains an option next year should things unfold in a way that lends itself to that.
The last thing we want to do right now is burn bridges.
In 2004, it was known that Eli was going to play as soon as Warner stumbled. That was sort of a given from the start.
For Webb, this was supposed to really be a redshirt year. This staff has not been preparing him to play this season. Not until very recently. I think you need to be careful about just throwing a guy like that onto the field when he's underprepared. He doesn't have Eli's college resume or bloodline - I wouldn't compare the two as apples to apples. I think they're quite different.
I get that everyone wants to see Webb play. And I still think it's possible to get him reps later this month without creating another sour situation with Eli. But there's no reason to force him out there.
Manning starts because it's the right thing for the perception and long-term credibility of the franchise.
Smith and Webb slowly take on more/some 2nd then 1st string reps in practice.
When the games inevitably get out of hand, and they will because the team sucks and all the good players are hurt, you work the backups in.
Manning will play his ass off because of pride and wanting to continue his career.
When he's not under center you get to evaluate him, his replacement and the other players all at the same time.
And if anyone complains they can move on after the year.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
The qb isn't the problem with this offense, putting Webb doesn't mean it'll yield positive results with his growth as a qb. The line, the wr's and the scheme all seem to be a big mess, why put a green qb in to deal with that? That sounds like setting a player up to fail.
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overall productivity whether you put in Eli, Geno or Webb.
So I would just try to get Webb some playing time as much as possible over the remainder of the season since the other two have no future value to speak of.
just sayin...
Yeah we know keep saying it all you want but it doesn't make it true...
At least now that your silly wish came true, you can stop calling people shitstains.
Maybe now you can learn how to value the long-term best interests of the team.
I know! brilliant!!! dilly-dilly!!
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
Here's what I think/worry will happen.
Eli will start and play all the remaining games. The offense will struggle and Eli will look terrible. A new coach and GM will decide to go in a different direction. Another ugly divorce and more drama as Eli is let go from the Giants.
Eli's last games played here will continue a different streak - the number of games without any significant kind of offensive success.
The last meaningful game we played where Eli looked like the guy who could win a close game late for us was vs. Philly last year when he threw four TD's. I'll be happy if we can see that from him even one more time, win or lose. I just don't really believe we'll have a chance to see this again.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
I don't think any decisions should be made based on the QB play we see behind an injured, shitty offensive line with the DC serving as an interim HC.
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Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
As long as they win, I think most of us will be okay with it. If we get a repeat of opening night (or worse) I can't see how we gain anything at all by starting Eli. Give me one thing we will have gained so I can understand it.
What do we gain by winning? Seriously - how does it help?
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Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
We've been a horrible football team all year long. We've won 2 games. Suddenly we're going to start winning? Why?
This team sucks. Eli isn't going to change that. We lost 9 of the 11 games he started and the two teams we beat have been awful ever since.
I'm not worried about suddenly winning games now, nor should anyone else. The Giants are a bad team. We don't need to play Webb to ensure that we lose games and that shouldn't be the primary motivation anyway.
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is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
And how exactly is that any different than those who want to see Eli play for the sake of seeing him?
The only thing Eli can possibly accomplish at this point is screwing up the draft position.
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In comment 13726547 EricJ said:
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Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
We've been a horrible football team all year long. We've won 2 games. Suddenly we're going to start winning? Why?
This team sucks. Eli isn't going to change that. We lost 9 of the 11 games he started and the two teams we beat have been awful ever since.
I'm not worried about suddenly winning games now, nor should anyone else. The Giants are a bad team. We don't need to play Webb to ensure that we lose games and that shouldn't be the primary motivation anyway.
With an interim coach bounce and the return of Eli? Yes, it's very possible they could win 1-2 games that will ultimately screw up the long-term opportunity that is currently in the Giants' lap.
What's the benefit of playing Eli? Don't you think he makes it more likely that the Giants win? If you can honestly say no, then I'll just turn around and ask why you'd play a soon-to-be 37 year old QB in the first place.
What changed? This has been a putrid football team in turmoil all year long. Suddenly we're going to start beating everyone?
I don't want to see Eli for the sake of seeing him - I want him to play if Webb isn't ready to play because it makes the most sense.
I'm not one of the fans saying they want to see wins or finish strong. But if Davis Webb isn't ready to play yet, he shouldn't play.
Unless you're really pining for Geno to continue playing... which I really wouldn't understand at all.
Here's what I think/worry will happen.
Eli will start and play all the remaining games. The offense will struggle and Eli will look terrible. A new coach and GM will decide to go in a different direction. Another ugly divorce and more drama as Eli is let go from the Giants.
Eli's last games played here will continue a different streak - the number of games without any significant kind of offensive success.
The last meaningful game we played where Eli looked like the guy who could win a close game late for us was vs. Philly last year when he threw four TD's. I'll be happy if we can see that from him even one more time, win or lose. I just don't really believe we'll have a chance to see this again.
Oh, the humanity! A new coach and GM might decide that it's time to move on from a 37 year old QB who looked terrible and represents a $20MM+ cap hit. Do you really think it's prudent to bet on it being all the other factors having to line up just right, or do you think a new regime just embraces a full rebuild either way?
I think it's almost certainly the latter (which is also why they already put the blood on McAdoo's hands for breaking the streak), which is why it makes the most sense to give them the most valuable draft position to do so.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
What changed? This has been a putrid football team in turmoil all year long. Suddenly we're going to start beating everyone?
I don't want to see Eli for the sake of seeing him - I want him to play if Webb isn't ready to play because it makes the most sense.
I'm not one of the fans saying they want to see wins or finish strong. But if Davis Webb isn't ready to play yet, he shouldn't play.
Unless you're really pining for Geno to continue playing... which I really wouldn't understand at all.
I'm pining for the best chance at the best possible draft pick. Do you think Eli gives them a better chance to win than Geno?
If so, he's a risk to interfere with the long-term opportunity. If not, is it just about sentimentality? Because there's definitely a handful of people on this thread alone who don't seem to understand the long-term implications of the next month.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
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Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
We're not guaranteed any outcome regardless of who starts.
We were down a field goal with under 5 minutes to play in Oakland. One late Derek Carr mistake could have had us leaving that stadium with a win.
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We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
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In comment 13726569 Percy said:
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Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
and if they like it, maybe they can lose for money going forward.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.
The Eli era is coming to a close whether we like it or not. He's about to turn 37 and is in some level of physical decline. We have an amazingly fortunate opportunity to transition to a new era with (hopefully) no trough in between franchise QBs, like so many teams suffer through.
If you'd rather win a few meaningless games that end up making us lose many more meaningful games in the future, all I can say is that I passionately disagree with your point of view.
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In comment 13726616 arcarsenal said:
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We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
A lot of people "disagree" with something that put the guy ahead of them in front of a firing squad.
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In comment 13726620 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13726616 arcarsenal said:
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We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
There's no way to quantify that or answer it factually. It would just be an opinion.
The offense looked equally uninspiring with both Geno and Eli because we have arena league WR's and an offensive line that can't block. The circumstances are such that I honestly don't think it makes a measurable difference.
We only needed 12 points to beat Kansas City a few weeks ago. We could win a flukey game with either player. Starting Geno doesn't guarantee anything aside from completely burning our bridges with Eli and eliminating the option to have him return next year.
And yes, I'd like to keep that option open if given the choice because it provides more flexibility going forward.
Ownership was tired of the losing and wants to still try to win every game.
Having said that, I wish McAdoo hadn't been fired because I preferred losing but seeing what we had in the other QB's. I don't worry about the development of Webb. I don't think we're going to ruin a 3rd round pick by giving him some snaps now. Why do we bother giving them snaps in preseason when they have the worst OL's and running games in the league? To develop them and evaluate them.
Like others here, I don't think we're going to produce offensively no matter who is under center. I'd prefer it not be Eli because the games are more interesting with young talent - at least you can see who is on the bench. I also don't savor the notion of Eli playing another quarter season of putrid football. Finally, I don't see what we have to gain by playing Eli at this point.
If you're a fan of Eli and want him around next year why risk injuring him in these meaningless games?
If you're not a fan of Eli (at this point) and are ready to move on, why have Eli start these meaningless games?
I can only see one condition - that you want to win these games (like Spags does) and you believe that Eli can help you get that done. This is the only real reason I believe you should really start Eli throughout.
And I don't get the uproar over the original plan of starting Eli but bringing in the backups later in the game vs. starting Eli and pulling him because the game is out of hand (signaling a lack of confidence in Eli's ability to pull out a win). The second would certainly be more painful and disrespectful to Eli, imo. Eli - we planned to have you in the game but since we're doing nothing with you on offense we're going to take you out and see what we got with someone else. YIKES!
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In comment 13726627 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13726620 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13726616 arcarsenal said:
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We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
There's no way to quantify that or answer it factually. It would just be an opinion.
The offense looked equally uninspiring with both Geno and Eli because we have arena league WR's and an offensive line that can't block. The circumstances are such that I honestly don't think it makes a measurable difference.
We only needed 12 points to beat Kansas City a few weeks ago. We could win a flukey game with either player. Starting Geno doesn't guarantee anything aside from completely burning our bridges with Eli and eliminating the option to have him return next year.
And yes, I'd like to keep that option open if given the choice because it provides more flexibility going forward.
Fair enough, and I can appreciate that alone as a reason.
My opinion is that they're very likely to part ways with Eli either way, especially after this past week, but not necessarily because Eli won't want to come back (although who knows if he will), but because I think a new regime is likely to have extreme reservations about repeating the circus that this past week became.
And that would be the ultimate O. Henry level irony - all of the fan outrage that went down this past week could ultimately affect the next regime's willingness to keep Eli and risk going through it again.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Go look at history of teams that struggled with good established veteran qbs. They never sat the qb. Never. That's one of the reasons why mcadoo was fired. Or I should say the decision to bench Eli for smith was indicative of a lost head coach.
They never sit the vet qb unless the young qb is highly regarded. I
My opinion is that they're very likely to part ways with Eli either way, especially after this past week, but not necessarily because Eli won't want to come back (although who knows if he will), but because I think a new regime is likely to have extreme reservations about repeating the circus that this past week became.
And that would be the ultimate O. Henry level irony - all of the fan outrage that went down this past week could ultimately affect the next regime's willingness to keep Eli and risk going through it again.
I couldn't agree more - although I'm with Arc personally in that I'm okay with keeping Eli around, I don't really see a reason that the new regime will want to do the same. They've got to make the right decisions with regards to QB and would rather go through some growing pains with the new talent at QB than deal with benching Eli at some point in the near future.
And of course, there is the possibility that they want to simply change offensive philosophies and go with a more mobile QB. They may feel that Eli doesn't fit with that philosophy.
To be clear, there are fans who actually want to see the Giants win these games - I'm not one of those. I want the better pick. I just really think we'll keep losing even if we start Eli, and I figure if there's a chance to salvage the relationship, it's worth doing in the event that the following regime feels Eli is still someone they want to be a part of their plans going forward.
Ideally, I'd like for Eli to prove he's still got a little something left while we simultaneously lose out. It'll be hard for both things to happen together, but that's my hope.
I'm just tired of the circus atmosphere at this point.
There is a thread right now on this website about another players dad sending Eli's dad a condolence note over not starting.
The whole football world cares and that's why Manning is starting.
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Spags coaching to win the last four games, to try and win himself the head job. Playing an aging known quantity in a lost season while a young, promising player continues to watch. I can see it now, Abrams/Spags GM/HC combo.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Go look at history of teams that struggled with good established veteran qbs. They never sat the qb. Never. That's one of the reasons why mcadoo was fired. Or I should say the decision to bench Eli for smith was indicative of a lost head coach.
They never sit the vet qb unless the young qb is highly regarded. I
At least the Broncos had the good sense to pretend that Peyton was injured in 2015 when they benched him.
Geno had his start.
Davis is the one who (appropriately) will have fewer starts.
The NYGs should jettison Geno (so he can compete as BU on another team) and start a REAL evaluation of Davis (vs a high draft choice if they go that way) next spring. Even if not #1, Webb should be a solid #2 with proper coaching, or even have trade value.
You're right. Delaying the rebuild a year or so is the worst. We should avoid that. Stop patching holes on a broken product and start the rebuild ASAP.
AFC-W sucks...as does NFC-W. We just sucked less than those 2.
Dallas game- the Giants will likely keep it close but will lose the game in the fourth quarter or win in OT.
Philly game- I actually think the Rams will manhandle Philly out there with that LA front four. Philly is going to come back to NJ, pissed off and Wentz will go back to looking like an all star again throwing 4 touchdowns, Eagles will be the darlings of the NFL after winning 44-3 and everyone will slurp them up again because they beat another moron team.
Arizona game- Go back to where Super Bowl 42 was in a white jersey #10 one last time. Giants win 13-10.
Washington game - lose something like 21-10. Eli's last game as a Giants player/starter or whatever. Have Coughlin and others greet him to send him off.
Giants finish 3-13 to wrap up this bizarre season
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is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
You miss the point. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by playing Eli. Nothing.
therefore you play Webb...
That is a dreadful way to run a franchise.
The successful restructuring of this team began this week with the firing of two problems. Eli around only further delays the progress...
It looks like we do that already...
So, come up with a scenario where they do *not* take the blue-chip QB. I will tell you that it's fanciful. A responsible franchise would do nothing else but take a potential franchise QB.
I'm not wed to playing Eli but there is really no rational reason not to, other than the philosophy where everyone gets to play and we all have oranges at half-time. There nothing to learn because, given their record, nothing will change their draft strategy. And they know it.
Someone let me know! Thanks!
You made a decision and you back the decision. Why? Because you believed it was best for the organization. Now, after terminating two people, you're going to back off that decision. But what has changed? Only the head coach and GM. And yet Mara claims it was as much his idea that the QB's needed to be evaluated as anyone. So he no longer cares enough to do that?
You made a decision and you back the decision. Why? Because you believed it was best for the organization. Now, after terminating two people, you're going to back off that decision. But what has changed? Only the head coach and GM. And yet Mara claims it was as much his idea that the QB's needed to be evaluated as anyone. So he no longer cares enough to do that?
However, if the plan going forward is to let Eli play the entire game for the rest of the season, then that is clearly a populist reactionary decision that is intended to appease the fanboys and reduce protests/incremental bad PR/hate mail at the expense of evaluating the backups. It's like when Coke introduced New Coke and then quickly yanked it after customer anger.
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Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
Seriously, does ANYONE anywhere believe that MacMagoo made the decision to sit Eli.? That order came from MARA/TISCH.
MacMagoo still deserved to be fired after SF game
Mcadoo is the one who screwed it up!
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In comment 13726105 BigBlue4You09 said:
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Eli didn't, doubtful he was going to catch Favre anyway. And when it's mentioned in the future it's also going to be along with "Eli's would be longer if not benched for his idiot coach that got fired a few days later".
Seriously, does ANYONE anywhere believe that MacMagoo made the decision to sit Eli.? That order came from MARA/TISCH.
MacMagoo still deserved to be fired after SF game
Mcadoo is the one who screwed it up!
John Mara admitted that he signed off on EXACTLY the plan that McAdoo presented Eli with.
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In comment 13726573 Jimmy Googs said:
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is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
You miss the point. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by playing Eli. Nothing.
therefore you play Webb...
Actually, there is - and I mentioned it several times already.
Webb needs to be ready to play and McAdoo did not intend on playing him at all this season, so there was very little preparation done in that regard.
You don't just throw him out there for the sake of doing it. He's a rookie that was supposed to be redshirted this year and was thought to be a little bit of a project.
There's nothing to be gained by throwing him to the wolves before he's ready, either. And there's a good chance that's the case.
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about this thing, is it just seems so reactionary, which typically hasn't been the Giants style, and imo is a poor way to run any program.
You made a decision and you back the decision. Why? Because you believed it was best for the organization. Now, after terminating two people, you're going to back off that decision. But what has changed? Only the head coach and GM. And yet Mara claims it was as much his idea that the QB's needed to be evaluated as anyone. So he no longer cares enough to do that?
I guess the only consistent thing is that Mara was always in favour of the plan to let Eli start the rest of the season and work in Geno and Davis into the game, depending on the situation of the game (as opposed to McAdoo putting a hard stop of the transition at halftime). Maybe that is still the plan.
However, if the plan going forward is to let Eli play the entire game for the rest of the season, then that is clearly a populist reactionary decision that is intended to appease the fanboys and reduce protests/incremental bad PR/hate mail at the expense of evaluating the backups. It's like when Coke introduced New Coke and then quickly yanked it after customer anger.
Mara signed off on McAdoo's plan.
A: That seems to be the focus of everybody’s attention right now. The plan was, Ben was going to talk to Eli and tell him that he was going to start and play the first half and Geno would play the second half. I signed off on that. But, again, my hope was two things: one, that I was going to speak to Ben and try to get him to be a little bit more flexible about that all. I do not like interfering with coaching decisions about who’s going to play, I’ve never done that before. I also, as I said I think the other day to you guys, was hoping that Eli would be playing so well, it’d be impossible to take him out. In any event, it is where it is and you ought to stop blaming Ben and Jerry on that. If you want to blame me, go ahead and do it. I certainly have the power to overrule them if I wanted to, I chose not to do it.
In the end he needs to know how to hand off the ball 2 out of every 3 plays and make a few slant passes and fades.
Every now and then he will have to scramble, and evey now and then he will need to go down and take a sack.
If he is brave, then maybe he will stand in there...so lets see it.
You all have been spoiled for having Eli show up to play every week for the past 14 years...
I'm asking for the reason Gatorade (and others) is paranoid now "Manning is back and how this will derail us for a good draft spot with too many wins".
Is there a Peyton Manning/Andrew Luck type as far as QBs are related in the 2018 draft, and that's it? I think the Browns are locked in for that #1 pick, they're not winning any games this year. #0-16..
The Giants will get a good pick (they already have 10 losses) and hey it won't be Reese making the choice this time around. Hooray?