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Justin Pugh: Where do you stand on his future with the team?

M.S. : 12/5/2017 8:41 pm
(A) Sign him at a "fair market contract"
(B) Only sign him at a steep discount
(C) Let him walk under any and all circumstances
(D) Some other idea

Interested in your answer. Thanks in advance.
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I would say B  
Carson53 : 12/5/2017 9:38 pm : link
He misses games every year, so durability that includes
a back issue the last two years is a concern.
FA OL class is shit...  
Ryan : 12/5/2017 9:40 pm : link
...and most of his peers drafted in the '13-14 drafts have already re-upped at $10M/yr+. My guess is he'll get an offer better than what we can do elsewhere given the lack of depth in the class.

RE: sec125  
section125 : 12/5/2017 9:42 pm : link
In comment 13726813 B in ALB said:
I hear ya. Totally valid. But he's been the victim of some contact injuries that couldn't be avoided and he's played thru some stuff.

From experience, I can tell you that when you don't have a solid unit, the injuries tend to pile up. You're not working effectively together and things get very dicey.

Thanks for the insight. Yeah, I think one was being rolled up on. Personally I think he has played to the level of his draft spot when he has played.
Just thinking of money paid recently to OLinemen that seemed to be constantly injured (Baas/Schwartz).
WillVAB : 12/5/2017 9:47 pm : link
The Giants absolutely cannot afford to take on any bad contracts this year. Thereís too many guys waiting to cash in ó Beckham, Collins, etc.

Pugh is a nice player when healthy. The problem is heís never healthy, and heíll likely be the top OL option in the market. Let someone else overpay for him/Richberg and turn the comp picks into cheap contributors.
Pepe LePugh : 12/5/2017 9:49 pm : link
Injury history is a part of FMV. Solid, versatile. No brainer if the price is right.
Manning10 : 12/5/2017 10:02 pm : link
Nice guy , a reach when he was picked. Injuries and inconsistent play cloud his worth.
Rjanyg : 12/5/2017 10:02 pm : link
You hope to get a decent deal done but I wouldn't count on it. Even with his injury history, Ough might be the best OL in the market
Sign him to deal...  
est1986 : 12/5/2017 10:03 pm : link
As long as it is well short of the 5 year 60 million dollar deal Kevin Zeitler got from Cleveland.

I say 4 years 40 million 20-25 guaranteed

And I would offer something a little lighter but similar for Richburg and I would offer Fluker and Brett Jones 1 year prove it deals
RE: Sign him to deal...  
adamg : 12/5/2017 10:06 pm : link
In comment 13726845 est1986 said:
As long as it is well short of the 5 year 60 million dollar deal Kevin Zeitler got from Cleveland.

I say 4 years 40 million 20-25 guaranteed

And I would offer something a little lighter but similar for Richburg and I would offer Fluker and Brett Jones 1 year prove it deals

I think you have to go a little more for Pugh to make it fair. I'd try to get Fluker on a Jerry like contract. 3 years 12 mill maybe.

Isn't Jones a RFA?
Sign him to deal...  
est1986 : 12/5/2017 10:06 pm : link
As long as it is well short of the 5 year 60 million dollar deal Kevin Zeitler got from Cleveland.

I say 4 years 40 million 20-25 guaranteed

I would offer Fluker another prove it deal and Brett Jones a prove it deal

Richburg is the guy who would get an offer but would have to take less to come back; low-ball

Draft an OL, preferably a tackle in the first 4 rounds and sign another 1 via F/A and that's the best we can do with this OL I think
I never like to disparage another poster ...  
Manny in CA : 12/5/2017 10:10 pm : link

But section125, you force me to say it - C'mon, man !

Pugh play like a #1 pick ? When did that happen ?
Sign him to a fair deal  
montanagiant : 12/5/2017 10:12 pm : link
I would let Richburg walk
RE: A  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/5/2017 10:15 pm : link
In comment 13726780 PatersonPlank said:
He's our best OL player and the OL leader.

And that says what. This is a bottom 5 OL at best. Being the best of
That group is hardly a compliment. He's been solid but hurt way too much. At best an1 year deal or a huge discount.

You got to  
tony71 : 12/5/2017 10:17 pm : link
Think about signing him for a fair price. Bring up the injuries and all that and try to get a discount, but at the end of the day ,the offensive line sucks. So unless you got the money to replace every single player, you need to keep the better ones you got. Thereís only so many draft picks and so much money. At the worst he plays on the line as a starter, at the best he can eventually become a rotational player for someone better and can be thrown in any time. I think itís about time we have a few back ups that are half decent instead of scrubs off someone elseís trash heap.
RE: Sign him to deal...  
mfsd : 12/5/2017 10:29 pm : link
In comment 13726845 est1986 said:
As long as it is well short of the 5 year 60 million dollar deal Kevin Zeitler got from Cleveland.

I say 4 years 40 million 20-25 guaranteed

And I would offer something a little lighter but similar for Richburg and I would offer Fluker and Brett Jones 1 year prove it deals

TJ Lang got 3 years/$28.5/$19 guaranteed last year...I donít want to pay Pugh that much, but Iím sure heíll be looking for that range to start. Iíd prefer 3 years/$6 million per...even that feels like a lot for an injury prone guard, even if heís our best OL when healthy
B or C  
KerrysFlask : 12/5/2017 10:30 pm : link
The 'best o lineman on the team' argument is weak.

Thats not hard to do with this crew.

And frankly, I'd never usually say this considering how much shit I've talked, but I think our best lineman this year might be flowers. It has been flowers.
Let him walk  
ron mexico : 12/5/2017 10:35 pm : link
Mediocre when not hurt.
Doomster : 12/5/2017 10:36 pm : link
like any other player coming off his rookie contract, is looking for that big payday contract.....there will be a GM out there willing to take a chance on him, by offering big bucks.....

The Giants in the past have signed too many players that can't stay on the field....we know this guy's history, and it would be crazy to overpay someone who is on the sidelines....there is no such thing as a hometown discount, after rookie contracts...he got almost 9M this year.....what do you think he is going to ask for?
I think you guys are crazy  
adamg : 12/5/2017 10:36 pm : link
if you think he's signing anything less than 4 years long and 10 mill per year
If the Dr's tell me...  
Vinny from Danbury : 12/5/2017 10:48 pm : link
his back is not a ticking time bomb, I'd be willing to resign him. But if we know it's gonna be an ongoing issue that has to be managed, then lets look elsewhere before committing any significant sum of money to him. I like him as a player, and team leader, but not if we know his health is definitely going to be an issue.
If you're willing to let Pugh walk  
TJ : 12/5/2017 10:58 pm : link
Where do you get his replacement? You won't get a free agent of equal talent without overpaying that guy. Replace him in the drsft? Maybe but probably not with anybody 3rd round or lower. Draft a tackle in the first 2 rounds, we'll still need 2 guards from somewhere. And possibly a center.
Not a Big Gan of The Pugh...  
Rafflee : 12/5/2017 11:05 pm : link
... but he's been playing without help from his linemates, or the offensive approach.

Macadoo's approach never did serve these young guys and their present abilities.... the entire unit has been playing on it's heals for 2 years. When they started Punching People in the Mouth (inserting Fluker and Dumping Perkins for Darkwa), they seemed to be on the cusp of establishing a physical presence for the first time in several years..... the injuries and the losses already had them pickled.

Beezer : 12/5/2017 11:11 pm : link
Let him walk  
The_Boss : 12/5/2017 11:20 pm : link
Not even a question. Always misses time and is potentially looking for $8 million a year. No thanks.
He has a bad back  
Vanzetti : 12/5/2017 11:33 pm : link
that's generally not a good sign for an OL.

I'd give him 5/35 but with only about 5 million guaranteed. Giants would be foolish to give him more especially after being burned with injuries to Snee, Baas and Schwartz

To keep making the same mistake is a sign of poor organizational decision making
incentive laden deal  
uconngiant : 12/6/2017 12:51 am : link
No way I would give him big bucks but I would be all for a show me one year deal at $4-5 million.
We got screwed out of the lineman we wanted ....  
Manny in CA : 12/6/2017 1:12 am : link

In 2015, out of Brandon Scherff (#5) by the Skins (Pro Bowl)

In 2016, out of Jack Conklin (#8) by the Titans (ALL PRO)

I hope, this year, we can pick high enough to get a shot at Nelson. If we get screwed again (or worse, if we reach for a lesser player), all the pain and humiliation of this year will be multiplied.
The good news ....  
Manny in CA : 12/6/2017 1:43 am : link

Flowers looks like he's finally "getting it"; DJ (Jesus) Fluker is just starting to play up to his potential. These two have tremendous natural ability.

That leaves three spots to fill. LG, Center, Right Tackle. If we snatch up Nelson, two.

So, the line would look like this ....

Flowers; Nelson; "X"; Fluker; "X"

Much thanks for responses...  
M.S. : 12/6/2017 6:44 am : link
...not a precise count, but the tally looks something like this:

For those who provided an explicit grade, the count looks like this:

"A" (Pay fair market value) 5
"B" (Steep discount) 9
"C" (Let him walk) 4

For those without an explicit grade, here's my interpretation/understanding as to what the tally probably looks like:

"A" (Pay fair market value) 12
"B" (Steep discount) 5
"C" (Let him walk) 4

One interesting tidbit is that -- for those who did NOT provide an explicit grade -- the general view is heavily tilted toward paying Pugh fair market value (12 votes). In contrast, for those who provided an explicit grade, the prevailing sentiment is pay only a steep discount.

This is what the combined scores look like:

"A" (Pay fair market value) 17 (44%)
"B" (Steep discount) 14 (36%)
"C" (Let him walk) 8 (20%)

Personally, my thoughts on Pugh fluctuate wildly depending on my mood. When I get pissed as hell thinking back over the past 5 years of shit O-line play, I say let Pugh walk. Good riddance. And when I try to look at the situation with a cold, calculating eye, I fall somewhere between "A" and "B"... maybe give Pugh either a decent 1-year prove-it-deal, or a longer incentive-laden deal.

One last thought about this guy. Continuity is crucial for O-line play, and I'm sorry to say that Pugh is a continuity-killer with all his injuries. I can't reasonably expect that to change in the future. Maybe it would be best to wish him well and simply part ways.

O line  
Rolyrock : 12/6/2017 7:18 am : link
Is one unit that needs chemistry
If he had better guys around him he would be better. He could be part of a great line.
Rong5611 : 12/6/2017 7:27 am : link
I'd try to keep him. Good player, can play T and G.
He is a guy that can play four  
joeinpa : 12/6/2017 7:30 am : link
Positions on the offensive line. Even with his inability to stay on the field up to now, that makes him valuable.

Don t think his new contract should reflect how high he was taken in the draft, but he could be a valuable cog in rebuilding of offensive line.
I've always seen him more as a tackle  
idiotsavant : 12/6/2017 7:34 am : link
But he is a flexible piece on the line..

Timing is the key as it will depend on the draft, the new GM's have a agency....

And cost. He may want to stay short term Depending who's who.
I've already expressed my opinion, but looking at the OL in general  
Diver_Down : 12/6/2017 7:59 am : link
We should look to re-sign Fluker. Our run game improved and so did he. He came cheap last year, but not sure he will be so cheap this year with the dearth of talent of this year's FA crop.

Jones is a RFA. There has been no drop-off in performance from Richburg, and to some degree an improvement with regards to preventing the pocket collapsing. He is a squat/stout man that anchors well. Can we improve? Yes. But in the short term, we have bigger issues so I would bring him back with a low round tender.

Jerry should be released, but if he is retained then he should be depth only. I just don't like paying a guy $3M to be a back-up. Let Halapio serve that roll along with being a back-up center. Halapio would need to be resigned, but he should come cheaper than Jerry and provides depth for 2 positions.

Wheeler and Bisno spend an off-season in the gym and hopefully come ready to compete. I just don't see them as starter material next year.

Hart is under contract and should only be depth. He is not an NFL starter.

The big question is what to do with Flowers? I think it is imperative that the team finds what position he can play the best. I don't think he should remain at LT. His 5th year option is $14M if the option is picked up in May. Absent of picking up the option, then next year is his last. Finding where he fits best will pay off in the long term. If he stays at LT, I expect that he'll continue to struggle and then be gone at season's end.

If Flowers moves into the interior (I think his best role where he does not have to operate in space), then we need a LT and RT. If Flowers moves to RT, then we need a G and LT. And obviously, if Flowers remains at LT, then we need a G and RT.

No matter how we shuffle the pieces, we need two starters. Personal feelings aside (I don't like Pugh), we may have to re-sign him. He is making $8M this year. He'll look to be paid in the $10M/yr range. I just don't see how paying a player with a history of missing multiple games every year due to injury is a wise investment. When he is healthy, he has not elevated the play of those around him. Can he be had on a short-term $6M/yr contract with incentives for being active for games($100K/game)?
As fans we are starting this a bit earlier than  
idiotsavant : 12/6/2017 8:23 am : link
Typically. So there is less data out there from the 'scouts'.

SY- get on those guards and tackles stat!

A good concept is to add fewer but higher quality pieces at this point. As usual we already have a pile of maybe tackles, although I think Pugh is better than maybe at T when healthy. Nor great but not a huge question mark either. You have to be willing to try flowers at G and RT and bench him if that's not your best line. My worry is his balance is not great.
don't let the door hit you on the way out Justin....  
Victor in CT : 12/6/2017 8:24 am : link
you might get hurt.

Way overrated by many here. avg player + constantly hurt = let walk
let him walk....  
BillKo : 12/6/2017 8:59 am : link
always hurt, and personally, I think he's overrated.

A good player.

Sure he's the best OL on this line, but we aren't very advanced.

Get a health evaluation on him first,  
MadMax : 12/6/2017 9:03 am : link
If healthy -A
If not - C
Overrated here as a guard  
idiotsavant : 12/6/2017 9:09 am : link
Only due to he didn't have enough power and heft in this system.

But was for a long time underrated as a tackle relative to our deal here.

For those looking QB here high. How many holes can you fill in one season in the line will be the puzzle.
RE: 1 year prove-it deal  
NNJ Tom : 12/6/2017 9:24 am : link
In comment 13726759 jlukes said:
he's versatile enough that it would give us more options at other positions along the OL in the short term

This, although he is unlikely to sign one. He needs a big payday before his health starts to really go downhill.
I wouldnt hate  
gmen9892 : 12/6/2017 11:10 am : link
Bringing Pugh back on a 1-2 year deal that allows him to build up his value again and so that he can prove he can stay healthy for a full year.

He's had 1 year that hes played in all 16 games, and that was his rookie year. Now with the back issue, I am not sure how much that will hurt his value, but it has to hurt at least a litte.

Like many others have said, there are TOO many holes on this OL. If you can plug 2 with adequate play out of Flowers and Pugh, keep Fluker/Jones/Jerry as backup plans, and sign/draft 3 more guys, you should have enough pieces to make an at least AVERAGE OL.
Unfortunately some team will  
gmenatlarge : 12/6/2017 11:26 am : link
throw a lot of money his way, leaving the giants out in the cold. Would like to sign him at average pay if only due to his flexibility on the line, doesn't look like it will happen, move on...
Depends on back injury  
jbeintherockies : 12/6/2017 11:30 am : link
He was quoted saying his back kept "locking up". That sounds like a disc problem. If true, discs take a long time to heal and are easier to injure from then on.

Short term, team friendly deal only.
RE: The good news ....  
HomerJones45 : 12/6/2017 11:31 am : link
In comment 13726971 Manny in CA said:

Flowers looks like he's finally "getting it"; DJ (Jesus) Fluker is just starting to play up to his potential. These two have tremendous natural ability.

That leaves three spots to fill. LG, Center, Right Tackle. If we snatch up Nelson, two.

So, the line would look like this ....

Flowers; Nelson; "X"; Fluker; "X"
Please. Welcome to BBI where the o-line is a POS but everyone wants to keep the same players. Can we get away from declaring "lousy" as "good"?

Flowers is a mediocre LT. He plays next season because he is still under contract, and he needs to play his ass off to earn another contract because right now he is a #9 pick bust. Fluker flat out sucks as a pass blocker-that's why the Chargers let him go. He's been around long enough that he is what he is- a Jerry Reach filled-with-hope-for-a-miracle bargain basement acquisition. And don't hand me the running game- it still stinks. Let him walk. The play will be just as bad if the cast doesn't change and we need to hold auditions.

Can we get 5 linemen who are all good at the same thing? It can be 5 good run blockers or 5 good pass blockers, it doesn't matter. This mix and match system we have isn't working. I think the Giants are writing Manning the check in March so we might was well get 5 pass blockers.

Pugh is an average NFL guard and should get an average NFL guard's money. He can at least pass block without needing 2 players to assist him so he should get a fair offer.
Sign Pugh  
Alwaysblue22 : 12/6/2017 12:09 pm : link
If the money makes sense. The Giants need to re-build their O-line. They have to start by salvaging whatever pieces of the existing group that are still functional. They need to focus at the top of the draft on the LT and Guard positions and move Flowers to RT. They will not be able to draft five linemen at each position and expect improvement. They may need to sign a O-lineman in free agency although the crop of FAs is not special they could find someone who is better than what they have now. Pugh and D.J. Fluker have shown enough to be functional . Jones is too small but is a useful back up and a tough player. I think Weston Richburg has declined, for reasons unknown, and needs to be replaced and John Jerry is awful and a total waste.
B: I'd like to have him back  
mrvax : 12/6/2017 12:22 pm : link
but not for top dollar. The Giants already have a lot of big contracts out there with more to come. If Pugh can come back for an injury discount, then fine.
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/6/2017 12:30 pm : link
You're a hard man, Homer ...  
Manny in CA : 12/6/2017 12:44 pm : link

You may be right (hope you're wrong about Flowers and Fluker).

Pugh has never been anything but an OK guy, now he's got a bad back.

Richburg is a mystery, how he faded; Jerry's a back-up ...

On-and-on, what a mess !
offer him a contract  
fkap : 12/6/2017 2:19 pm : link
which looks good overall (ie 4-40), but is very low in guarantees, making it easy to give him the boot in a year or two.

No way do you give him a premium, high dollar, high guarantee contract. He isn't premium when healthy, and he spends too much time not being healthy.

the only thing that keeps him from being highly sought after is his injury thing. He's good, and that'll get teams coming around, but, he is not worth anywhere near what he might get on the open market.
they have far too many problems  
msh : 12/6/2017 2:34 pm : link
on that OL already without letting the best player they have there walk, they do need to resign him but it will be dependant on his contract demands versus his health issues reducing his price some to reflect that,i dont think richburg will demand a high price in free agency either but jones has come in with no apprecative drop off so if you let someone walk better its richburg over pugh

either in free agency or the draft they need a LT and move flowers to RT or inside to guard he isnt an nfl LT and reese's failure to replace him,or bring in anyone to seriously challenge or with potential to replace him if he didnt improve was ultimately his demise with the team

pugh can play multiple positions across the line and could even be the LT even short term if that is so he would be worth keeping try it this week move pugh out to LT switch flowers over to RT see if this works or not and use what you learn to make your decision on what you do along the OL
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