I will disagree with my good friend Eric to a degree in that to compare this to 1978 is a little overdramatic. However, I do think it is potentially a key moment in the team's evolution. But not the G.M. choice. There are literally a slew of smart football guys out there who can come and do a good job as G.M. Same with head coach. The key is the QB decision. The Giants are almost assuredly going to take a QB with their #1 pick (and if they don't then we do have to worry) and if they get the right guy you put yourself in a position to have another really nice 10-12 year run. If your guy busts and you may be looking at an extended bumbling stretch. Obviously there other spots that need work, some more than others, but in this day and age QB is just so important. As I've noted in other posts the draft is a crap shoot and no matter how smart a GM we do get in here, ultimately when the Giants make their pick on April 26th the chances of success (and they are pretty high when you're picking top 2-3) still aren't much higher than that of a monkey throwing darts at a dart board. The other ironic part of the issue is that there is a very good probability that the guy the Giants end up selecting on April 26th, especially if they do end up picking in the top 2-3, will be the same player they would have taken if Jerry Reese were still around given that circumstances ie who is actually available will be the key driver of the pick.
Reese and McAdoo, are the assistant coaches getting a pass? I am concerned, that part of Reese's failures are with the entire coaching staff, doing a poor job of player development. It's hard to prove exactly, but with so many misses on draft choices with promise, there has to be some culpability on the coaches themselves. And, I am not referring to McAdoo, rather the assistants and entire coaching staff.
I really hope that this is going to be a completely fresh start for the franchise, but bringing Accorsi in as a consultant is very concerning to me if the end result is an Abrams/Gettelman combo. We need new perspectives from winning programs. My GM preference would be DeCosta or Wolf and my HC pick would be Shaw. We need fresh blood to fix what's wrong.
Picking the wrong QB negatively impacts a team for 5 years. The Giants are in a fantastic position to have a franchise QB who seems very willing to mentor his replacement, a decent QB class and the likelihood of having a top-3 pick.
It's the greatest city in the world ...in the greatest sport in the world.
Fairly sure the boss is looking for a great and focussed staff and is willing to let that group have a strong purview.
My 'dos centavos' is that the new staff have a specific and demonstrable plan to achieve a top 3 run game (yards by team over a season) and that if they can do that everything else will fall into place.
Or, put that another way, if they just grasp at names and hope a Hodge podge OL staff can implement a style...that may not do it.
I will disagree with my good friend Eric to a degree in that to compare this to 1978 is a little overdramatic. However, I do think it is potentially a key moment in the team's evolution. But not the G.M. choice. There are literally a slew of smart football guys out there who can come and do a good job as G.M. Same with head coach. The key is the QB decision. The Giants are almost assuredly going to take a QB with their #1 pick (and if they don't then we do have to worry) and if they get the right guy you put yourself in a position to have another really nice 10-12 year run. If your guy busts and you may be looking at an extended bumbling stretch. Obviously there other spots that need work, some more than others, but in this day and age QB is just so important. As I've noted in other posts the draft is a crap shoot and no matter how smart a GM we do get in here, ultimately when the Giants make their pick on April 26th the chances of success (and they are pretty high when you're picking top 2-3) still aren't much higher than that of a monkey throwing darts at a dart board. The other ironic part of the issue is that there is a very good probability that the guy the Giants end up selecting on April 26th, especially if they do end up picking in the top 2-3, will be the same player they would have taken if Jerry Reese were still around given that circumstances ie who is actually available will be the key driver of the pick.
Colin, always appreciate your insights and your website. Still the first place I go for draft news.
In your mind, admitting that this is a crap shoot, who could be the "right" QB for the NY Giants?
Rosen has an elite arm, but does he fit the NY Giants. It seems opinions are all over the place on Darnold. Is Jackson an NFL QB? Same question for Mayfield. I'd love to see the Giants get their next QB and let him learn under Eli for a year, but I have to be convinced the top prospects are the goods.
draft a 10 yr franchise QB. Get an experienced HC who was won big time already. This is no time for experiments or half measures. and get a GM with a proven track record as well.
I will disagree with my good friend Eric to a degree in that to compare this to 1978 is a little overdramatic. However, I do think it is potentially a key moment in the team's evolution. But not the G.M. choice. There are literally a slew of smart football guys out there who can come and do a good job as G.M. Same with head coach. The key is the QB decision. The Giants are almost assuredly going to take a QB with their #1 pick (and if they don't then we do have to worry) and if they get the right guy you put yourself in a position to have another really nice 10-12 year run. If your guy busts and you may be looking at an extended bumbling stretch. Obviously there other spots that need work, some more than others, but in this day and age QB is just so important. As I've noted in other posts the draft is a crap shoot and no matter how smart a GM we do get in here, ultimately when the Giants make their pick on April 26th the chances of success (and they are pretty high when you're picking top 2-3) still aren't much higher than that of a monkey throwing darts at a dart board. The other ironic part of the issue is that there is a very good probability that the guy the Giants end up selecting on April 26th, especially if they do end up picking in the top 2-3, will be the same player they would have taken if Jerry Reese were still around given that circumstances ie who is actually available will be the key driver of the pick.
Assuming you're right about the Giants drafting a QB with their 1st pick, then what do they do with Davis Webb? Seems to me like it was a waste to pick him.
fluff and pomp to say we need fresh blood as if the organization as a whole has been terrible:
Quote:
This thread is pretty scary.
Emlen'sGremlins : 1:06 pm : link : reply
I really hope that this is going to be a completely fresh start for the franchise, but bringing Accorsi in as a consultant is very concerning to me if the end result is an Abrams/Gettelman combo. We need new perspectives from winning programs. My GM preference would be DeCosta or Wolf and my HC pick would be Shaw. We need fresh blood to fix what's wrong.
There's really no objective analysis that says Gettleman/Abrahms would be a terrible choice or that they can't handle the duties while thinking others can. Wolf, in particular, has as many or more warts than Gettleman, who basically was let go from Carolina because he had the balls to try and restructure the owner's favorite players contracts.
I don't know if Gettleman is the answer, but to act like he isn't is just talking out one's ass. The same as saying a "fresh blood" hire would immediately succeed.
Andy: Absolutely not; QB is just such an important position that you want to have as many options as possible. If nothing else there is always the possibility that Webb emerges as a quality player and the #2 pick goes bust. And if it turns out they both can play then you keep the guy you like and trade the other like New England did with Garropolo and Brissett.
Emil: You ask the $64K question and trust me if I 'Knew' the answer I'd be making $64K for an actual NFL team rather than posting on a fan site (as good as it is!) Fact is there are some pretty good options at QB this year. Darnold is a Brett Favre high-risk high-reward type guy; Rosen has the exquisite arm but with some intangible issues; Mayfield is a Russell Wilson type gym rat who fails the measurables test but is just a gamer; Jackson is a Michael Vick type superior athlete with an adequate arm; while Josh Allen is a Patrick Mahomes type with the best arm strength but is mechanically raw. And you could make a case that Most teams seem to have them rated 1) Darnold; 2) Rosen; 3) Mayfield) 4) Jackson; 5) Allen and I would assume the Giants will be in that ballpark. It is very probable though barring a trade that the pick will be determined by who is still available when they get on the clock. And as George Young famously once said: "you get as much information you can; you make the best decision you can; and then you cross your fingers." And if the pick works out we'll be calling our new GM a genius; if it doesn't it'll be what a smuck!
It's the right strategy in this short term to secure the best draft slot.
Any more winning risks placing us in a draft slot that would require giving up future assets like draft picks. I don't think that's a game Jints Central wants to get into, especially if the next GM has no real draft record...
This is why this Eli/McAdoo thing was so horribly botched. The last thing we should want to see is Eli back in the line-up. He gives us the best chance to win - granted, those are still long odds...
I will disagree with my good friend Eric to a degree in that to compare this to 1978 is a little overdramatic. However, I do think it is potentially a key moment in the team's evolution. But not the G.M. choice. There are literally a slew of smart football guys out there who can come and do a good job as G.M. Same with head coach. The key is the QB decision. The Giants are almost assuredly going to take a QB with their #1 pick (and if they don't then we do have to worry) and if they get the right guy you put yourself in a position to have another really nice 10-12 year run. If your guy busts and you may be looking at an extended bumbling stretch. Obviously there other spots that need work, some more than others, but in this day and age QB is just so important. As I've noted in other posts the draft is a crap shoot and no matter how smart a GM we do get in here, ultimately when the Giants make their pick on April 26th the chances of success (and they are pretty high when you're picking top 2-3) still aren't much higher than that of a monkey throwing darts at a dart board. The other ironic part of the issue is that there is a very good probability that the guy the Giants end up selecting on April 26th, especially if they do end up picking in the top 2-3, will be the same player they would have taken if Jerry Reese were still around given that circumstances ie who is actually available will be the key driver of the pick.
Assuming you're right about the Giants drafting a QB with their 1st pick, then what do they do with Davis Webb? Seems to me like it was a waste to pick him.
You don't pass on a legit top 5 pick, franchise QB if he's there becuase of a Davis Webb.
And I do think the Webb pick was silly, compounded by the fact that they traded up for a guy who is probably destined to be a backup. CJ Beathard was picked later in that round and has played this year. And beat the Giants. Here is Sy56's review from draft day:
"SY’56’s Take: “His size and easy throwing motion can get you excited, but he has a ways to go in terms of progression and learning. Webb is a couple years away and will have to spend a lot of time correcting elements such as a footwork, lower body mechanics, and reading a defense, among other things. Possible starter down the road, but more likely a backup… Webb is a hot name with some of the people I get to talk with…and others think he won’t ever be a starter. Nobody denies the talent, but he has a ways to go. I’ve watched every game of his from 2016 and he does the same things week in and week out that bother me. He has to completely change his game and while I think it is possible, it’s simply unlikely.”
Andy: Absolutely not; QB is just such an important position that you want to have as many options as possible. If nothing else there is always the possibility that Webb emerges as a quality player and the #2 pick goes bust. And if it turns out they both can play then you keep the guy you like and trade the other like New England did with Garropolo and Brissett.
Emil: You ask the $64K question and trust me if I 'Knew' the answer I'd be making $64K for an actual NFL team rather than posting on a fan site (as good as it is!) Fact is there are some pretty good options at QB this year. Darnold is a Brett Favre high-risk high-reward type guy; Rosen has the exquisite arm but with some intangible issues; Mayfield is a Russell Wilson type gym rat who fails the measurables test but is just a gamer; Jackson is a Michael Vick type superior athlete with an adequate arm; while Josh Allen is a Patrick Mahomes type with the best arm strength but is mechanically raw. And you could make a case that Most teams seem to have them rated 1) Darnold; 2) Rosen; 3) Mayfield) 4) Jackson; 5) Allen and I would assume the Giants will be in that ballpark. It is very probable though barring a trade that the pick will be determined by who is still available when they get on the clock. And as George Young famously once said: "you get as much information you can; you make the best decision you can; and then you cross your fingers." And if the pick works out we'll be calling our new GM a genius; if it doesn't it'll be what a smuck!
Hi Colin,
If the Giants want to return to the power, physical football they had been known for, who is the best QB to draft?
Also, is there an OL close to the talent of Nelson from ND that might be available in rounds 2-3?
RJ: We got a mini-draft chat going here? To me this draft is so intriguing because the Giants have a really unique opportunity to get a potential elite QB with their #1 pick. And it gets better because there is some really good depth at a number of positions including the OL. In the second for example you could be looking at some really good prospects including Ohio State C Billy Price; OGs Braden Smith of Auburn and UTEP"s Will Hernandez; and OTs Tyrell Crosby of Oregon (if his knee checks out) and Western Michigan's Chuk Okorafor. Then in the 3rd you could looks at guys like OGs Isaiah Wynn of UGA and Washington State's 6-8 Cody O'Connell; Cs Frank ragnow of Arkansas and Michigan's Mason Cole and OT Jamarco Jones of Ohio State and small-college sleeper Brandon Parker of NC A&T. None of those guys are in the same class as Nelson, but they are good solid prospects.
MS: Nelson is a terrific prospect; maybe not quite in the John Hannah class but close enough (although so did John Hicks, Tony Mandarich and Robert Gallery). The problem with OGs though are that to go from a good solid one to one that is great to one that is elite really doesn't improve a team's winnability factor all that much. Contrast that with the situation at QB where if you have a good one you're a .500 team; if you have a great one you're in the playoffs and if you have an elite one you're in the Super Bowl. Same for pass rushers; you have to be better than just good to really be a factor in the NFL. In contrast once a team has good, solid offensive line (and clearly the Giants still need to get there) your skill people take over and make the real difference.
Andy: Absolutely not; QB is just such an important position that you want to have as many options as possible. If nothing else there is always the possibility that Webb emerges as a quality player and the #2 pick goes bust. And if it turns out they both can play then you keep the guy you like and trade the other like New England did with Garropolo and Brissett.
Emil: You ask the $64K question and trust me if I 'Knew' the answer I'd be making $64K for an actual NFL team rather than posting on a fan site (as good as it is!) Fact is there are some pretty good options at QB this year. Darnold is a Brett Favre high-risk high-reward type guy; Rosen has the exquisite arm but with some intangible issues; Mayfield is a Russell Wilson type gym rat who fails the measurables test but is just a gamer; Jackson is a Michael Vick type superior athlete with an adequate arm; while Josh Allen is a Patrick Mahomes type with the best arm strength but is mechanically raw. And you could make a case that Most teams seem to have them rated 1) Darnold; 2) Rosen; 3) Mayfield) 4) Jackson; 5) Allen and I would assume the Giants will be in that ballpark. It is very probable though barring a trade that the pick will be determined by who is still available when they get on the clock. And as George Young famously once said: "you get as much information you can; you make the best decision you can; and then you cross your fingers." And if the pick works out we'll be calling our new GM a genius; if it doesn't it'll be what a smuck!
Thank you Colin. I can't pay you for the answer, but it's certainly worth at least $32K. Looking forward to many more discussion over the next few months.
Based upon his handling of the last week, I doubt he is up to the task at hand which requires a thorough housecleaning and bold leadership. Being reactive in nature and not proactive is not the skill-set the Giants need right now. I expect a "safe" choice for GM and a "safe" choice for coach.
that the Giants will utilize a version of the WCO next season.
Why so? If you feel like they have that in their heads already, without a head coach and GM, then that's a worst case scenario. I don't buy that one. John Mara is many things, but I can't recall a time he's ever given off the impression that he believes he knows enough to decide what philosophies on offense or defense the team will run.
Why is it according to you "a mathematical certainty the we use a version of the WCO next year"?
Isn't that going to depend on which HC/OC/GM combo we get?
Feels like time for a major change - clean house and find great the best people. Which...I mean that often doesn't happen when one puts absolutes in place prior to the HR process.
Agree that it doesn't -have- to be 'WUS ball' within that...but still.
My preference is for someone who believes in physical football.
This.....You can't have a great Giant's team, win home field, play home outdoor playoff games in January with a team built on Speed/Finesse. I want them to build a team that thrives in 3rd/4th and short situations on both sides of the ball. And please, give me a MLB in the mold of Harry Carson. I want a tough as nails, 10 year starter in the middle of D calling plays and punishing RBs.
Seems like a team that turned around improved its OL Â
Seems like, similar to Atlanta, another prolific team, Chargers run lots of inside zone and outside zone.
While there seems to be a very small handful of teams that run power/man/inside z/outside z equally and well. Those seem like outliers and less copyable, due to uniquely talented coaching and rosters.
More copiable (and ergo more poachable staff wise and maybe more doable roster wise) Chargers Lynn staff and Atlanta list at staff both with regards to run and line.
The mix we used of run types didn't seem rational nor did it work.
You do a house-cleaning because you either know the skillsets
Jimmy Googs : 5:30 pm : link : reply
can be improved or you don't want to take the risk that leaving individuals in place will be detrimental to change.
And the org needs change, new direction and new blood.
You want to argue with that??
It is clear we need change. It is not clear that we need "new blood" or even a new direction, depending on what that direction is.
Gettleman has been a very good talent evaluator and Abrahms is a very good numbers guy. I don't know if they would be the ideal people to fill the GM role or if it is even on the radar, but to simply say we need "new blood" as if people from outside the organization are assured to be an upgrade is just blind optimism.
I know we're in the midst of a shitty season, but people acting like Reese has been a horrible GM and that the Giants org is full of idiots is just moronic.
MS: Nelson is a terrific prospect; maybe not quite in the John Hannah class but close enough (although so did John Hicks, Tony Mandarich and Robert Gallery). The problem with OGs though are that to go from a good solid one to one that is great to one that is elite really doesn't improve a team's winnability factor all that much. Contrast that with the situation at QB where if you have a good one you're a .500 team; if you have a great one you're in the playoffs and if you have an elite one you're in the Super Bowl. Same for pass rushers; you have to be better than just good to really be a factor in the NFL. In contrast once a team has good, solid offensive line (and clearly the Giants still need to get there) your skill people take over and make the real difference.
Thanks for insights Colin!
The problem with the argument that we need to clean out everyone Â
is that it assumes everyone in the front office agreed with every move that was made. In a room full of scouts, that never ever happens. You have a vast amount of opinion that gets filtered through, and one or two people have to make the choice on a player or a signing. How do we know there aren't people in the organization that don't favor a return to a 3-4 defense, or putting more emphasis linebacker as a priority? How do we know that Chris Mara doesn't have vastly different opinions on team building than Jerry Reese did?
Is how often positional coaches move horizontally . that is, one will be RB coach for a time. TE coach. Assistant line coach. Horizontal.moves.
So it seems doable to put together a group that will have great cohension within specifically what the OC or HC wants to do, as your RB coach will have coached the same OL system and so forth visa versa.
Another model that seems to work is when an old retread adjusts to what the young guns want to do and becomes the glue member, bringing all the bits together or going to areas of need.
For example Lynn kept Wisenhunt around. And no, Sully seems like a great guy personally but he doesn't equal a wisenhunt type .
It's the right strategy in this short term to secure the best draft slot.
Any more winning risks placing us in a draft slot that would require giving up future assets like draft picks. I don't think that's a game Jints Central wants to get into, especially if the next GM has no real draft record...
This is why this Eli/McAdoo thing was so horribly botched. The last thing we should want to see is Eli back in the line-up. He gives us the best chance to win - granted, those are still long odds...
There isn't a single NFL team that went into a single game "trying to lose." That's akin to playing it safe on a battle field. It's just not possible.
I can see it now that Giants fans are gonna ass hump this franchise for winning one more game here down the stretch to get to a whopping 3 wins for the year.
RE: RE: The first order of business is losing... Â
There isn't a single NFL team that went into a single game "trying to lose." That's akin to playing it safe on a battle field. It's just not possible.
I can see it now that Giants fans are gonna ass hump this franchise for winning one more game here down the stretch to get to a whopping 3 wins for the year.
An organization can certainly set it up where the chances of losing are increased exponentially. For Jints Central, the time could not be more perfect - no head coach, an aging QB, a season lost with a quarter of the season lost, no GM, etc. And a tremendous chance to secure a top three pick. Simply play the remaining games like preseason - play starters for a quarter or two, then start mixing in the backups.
To not do that is a dereliction of ownership, and a insult to Jints fans.
And I’m so sick of this romance for Eli to get his job back. I’ve seen enough. Time to move on...
is that it assumes everyone in the front office agreed with every move that was made. In a room full of scouts, that never ever happens. You have a vast amount of opinion that gets filtered through, and one or two people have to make the choice on a player or a signing. How do we know there aren't people in the organization that don't favor a return to a 3-4 defense, or putting more emphasis linebacker as a priority? How do we know that Chris Mara doesn't have vastly different opinions on team building than Jerry Reese did?
We don't. We don't know.
Which is why people "cleanhouse". They don't have time or want to take the risk to diligence everybody's thought-process or intent.
Gettleman has been a very good talent evaluator and Abrahms is a very good numbers guy. I don't know if they would be the ideal people to fill the GM role or if it is even on the radar, but to simply say we need "new blood" as if people from outside the organization are assured to be an upgrade is just blind optimism.
I know we're in the midst of a shitty season, but people acting like Reese has been a horrible GM and that the Giants org is full of idiots is just moronic.
As blind as saying nobody can found that is stronger than Gettleman or Abrahms? When you restructure something, you want to rebuild the core and let the core find its own new parts. If some of those parts are already in their seats...fine.
The most moronic thing would be to get rid of the GM and HC, but not critically examine everybody else.
rarely do people completely "clean house" and the examples that do exist of teams making wholesale changes hasn't resulted in fantastic results.
Shocking...you mean some bad franchises just kind of stay bad?
I am sure that only has to do with the people in the front office, and not the guy under Center.
As blind as saying nobody can found that is stronger than Gettleman or Abrahms?
My position has been that we need to have a GM/HC combo that will return us to being competitive consistently.
I don't care where they come from - and I don't know where they will come from.
I'm not making definitive statements that either in-house or outside guys are sure to succeed, yet I'm seeing a lot of comments saying in house people won't or can't and hiring them is "safe and easy". With a calling for Gruden or McDaniels in the very next breath.
It's the greatest city in the world ...in the greatest sport in the world.
Fairly sure the boss is looking for a great and focussed staff and is willing to let that group have a strong purview.
My 'dos centavos' is that the new staff have a specific and demonstrable plan to achieve a top 3 run game (yards by team over a season) and that if they can do that everything else will fall into place.
Or, put that another way, if they just grasp at names and hope a Hodge podge OL staff can implement a style...that may not do it.
Eh, East Rutherford is slightly above average at best. Definitely not the greatest city in the world.
I'm not making definitive statements that either in-house or outside guys are sure to succeed, yet I'm seeing a lot of comments saying in house people won't or can't and hiring them is "safe and easy". With a calling for Gruden or McDaniels in the very next breath.
So why does it matter to you that others would rather take the risk on bringing in more outside talent than inside?
And when the hell did any individual blogger's opinion on a NYG chat room blind everybody in how to best proceed in fixing this team. Its just an opinion for christ sake no mater how definitive they write their words...
Assuming you're right about the Giants drafting a QB with their 1st pick, then what do they do with Davis Webb? Seems to me like it was a waste to pick him.
You have to remember, at the time when they picked Webb, they couldn't have possibly predicted that they would have a top-5 overall pick a year later. They thought they were going to be contenders this year, and Webb represented solid value with an extended succession plan in mind. Obviously, the situation has played out very differently than the Giants thought it would, and the opportunity to pick so high in the draft is the only thing that really could prove to be a silver lining in what has otherwise been a disaster of a season.
Could the Giants stick to the extended succession plan that they originally had with Webb? Sure. But that doesn't really make a ton of sense if they're going to go through a rebuild of any significance. And if they do select a QB, that doesn't necessarily mean that Webb will end up having been a wasted pick. The odds of the next QB, even if he's great, being as durable as Eli has been are infinitesimal, which means that a quality backup will see some real playing time. That means that W
Assuming you're right about the Giants drafting a QB with their 1st pick, then what do they do with Davis Webb? Seems to me like it was a waste to pick him.
You have to remember, at the time when they picked Webb, they couldn't have possibly predicted that they would have a top-5 overall pick a year later. They thought they were going to be contenders this year, and Webb represented solid value with an extended succession plan in mind. Obviously, the situation has played out very differently than the Giants thought it would, and the opportunity to pick so high in the draft is the only thing that really could prove to be a silver lining in what has otherwise been a disaster of a season.
Could the Giants stick to the extended succession plan that they originally had with Webb? Sure. But that doesn't really make a ton of sense if they're going to go through a rebuild of any significance. And if they do select a QB, that doesn't necessarily mean that Webb will end up having been a wasted pick. The odds of the next QB, even if he's great, being as durable as Eli has been are infinitesimal, which means that a quality backup will see some real playing time. That means that W
cont'd
Webb will be an insurance policy and could become trade bait down the line if he shows that he's a good QB waiting in the wings.
Why is it according to you "a mathematical certainty the we use a version of the WCO next year"?
Isn't that going to depend on which HC/OC/GM combo we get?
Feels like time for a major change - clean house and find great the best people. Which...I mean that often doesn't happen when one puts absolutes in place prior to the HR process.
Agree that it doesn't -have- to be 'WUS ball' within that...but still.
I won't speak for Retro, but all teams incorporate some WCO elements regardless of their primary scheme.
first then let him pick his own HC, I know thats not the way its been done in the past but for these owners its uncharted waters. I just feel that if we're going to do a rebuild then do it right and keep owners noses out of the process and just have them pick the GM...
draft a 10 yr franchise QB. Get an experienced HC who was won big time already. This is no time for experiments or half measures. and get a GM with a proven track record as well.
Posters here knew Mara would take the safe, familiar route replacing those guys with Sullivan or someone else who's a former Giant guy.
Well Mara didn't do that. So, remain hopeful that a new guy at GM does not have to be a familiar face.
Fairly sure the boss is looking for a great and focussed staff and is willing to let that group have a strong purview.
My 'dos centavos' is that the new staff have a specific and demonstrable plan to achieve a top 3 run game (yards by team over a season) and that if they can do that everything else will fall into place.
Or, put that another way, if they just grasp at names and hope a Hodge podge OL staff can implement a style...that may not do it.
Colin, always appreciate your insights and your website. Still the first place I go for draft news.
In your mind, admitting that this is a crap shoot, who could be the "right" QB for the NY Giants?
Rosen has an elite arm, but does he fit the NY Giants. It seems opinions are all over the place on Darnold. Is Jackson an NFL QB? Same question for Mayfield. I'd love to see the Giants get their next QB and let him learn under Eli for a year, but I have to be convinced the top prospects are the goods.
Assuming you're right about the Giants drafting a QB with their 1st pick, then what do they do with Davis Webb? Seems to me like it was a waste to pick him.
Emlen'sGremlins : 1:06 pm : link : reply
I really hope that this is going to be a completely fresh start for the franchise, but bringing Accorsi in as a consultant is very concerning to me if the end result is an Abrams/Gettelman combo. We need new perspectives from winning programs. My GM preference would be DeCosta or Wolf and my HC pick would be Shaw. We need fresh blood to fix what's wrong.
There's really no objective analysis that says Gettleman/Abrahms would be a terrible choice or that they can't handle the duties while thinking others can. Wolf, in particular, has as many or more warts than Gettleman, who basically was let go from Carolina because he had the balls to try and restructure the owner's favorite players contracts.
I don't know if Gettleman is the answer, but to act like he isn't is just talking out one's ass. The same as saying a "fresh blood" hire would immediately succeed.
Emil: You ask the $64K question and trust me if I 'Knew' the answer I'd be making $64K for an actual NFL team rather than posting on a fan site (as good as it is!) Fact is there are some pretty good options at QB this year. Darnold is a Brett Favre high-risk high-reward type guy; Rosen has the exquisite arm but with some intangible issues; Mayfield is a Russell Wilson type gym rat who fails the measurables test but is just a gamer; Jackson is a Michael Vick type superior athlete with an adequate arm; while Josh Allen is a Patrick Mahomes type with the best arm strength but is mechanically raw. And you could make a case that Most teams seem to have them rated 1) Darnold; 2) Rosen; 3) Mayfield) 4) Jackson; 5) Allen and I would assume the Giants will be in that ballpark. It is very probable though barring a trade that the pick will be determined by who is still available when they get on the clock. And as George Young famously once said: "you get as much information you can; you make the best decision you can; and then you cross your fingers." And if the pick works out we'll be calling our new GM a genius; if it doesn't it'll be what a smuck!
Any more winning risks placing us in a draft slot that would require giving up future assets like draft picks. I don't think that's a game Jints Central wants to get into, especially if the next GM has no real draft record...
This is why this Eli/McAdoo thing was so horribly botched. The last thing we should want to see is Eli back in the line-up. He gives us the best chance to win - granted, those are still long odds...
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I will disagree with my good friend Eric to a degree in that to compare this to 1978 is a little overdramatic. However, I do think it is potentially a key moment in the team's evolution. But not the G.M. choice. There are literally a slew of smart football guys out there who can come and do a good job as G.M. Same with head coach. The key is the QB decision. The Giants are almost assuredly going to take a QB with their #1 pick (and if they don't then we do have to worry) and if they get the right guy you put yourself in a position to have another really nice 10-12 year run. If your guy busts and you may be looking at an extended bumbling stretch. Obviously there other spots that need work, some more than others, but in this day and age QB is just so important. As I've noted in other posts the draft is a crap shoot and no matter how smart a GM we do get in here, ultimately when the Giants make their pick on April 26th the chances of success (and they are pretty high when you're picking top 2-3) still aren't much higher than that of a monkey throwing darts at a dart board. The other ironic part of the issue is that there is a very good probability that the guy the Giants end up selecting on April 26th, especially if they do end up picking in the top 2-3, will be the same player they would have taken if Jerry Reese were still around given that circumstances ie who is actually available will be the key driver of the pick.
Assuming you're right about the Giants drafting a QB with their 1st pick, then what do they do with Davis Webb? Seems to me like it was a waste to pick him.
You don't pass on a legit top 5 pick, franchise QB if he's there becuase of a Davis Webb.
And I do think the Webb pick was silly, compounded by the fact that they traded up for a guy who is probably destined to be a backup. CJ Beathard was picked later in that round and has played this year. And beat the Giants. Here is Sy56's review from draft day:
"SY’56’s Take: “His size and easy throwing motion can get you excited, but he has a ways to go in terms of progression and learning. Webb is a couple years away and will have to spend a lot of time correcting elements such as a footwork, lower body mechanics, and reading a defense, among other things. Possible starter down the road, but more likely a backup… Webb is a hot name with some of the people I get to talk with…and others think he won’t ever be a starter. Nobody denies the talent, but he has a ways to go. I’ve watched every game of his from 2016 and he does the same things week in and week out that bother me. He has to completely change his game and while I think it is possible, it’s simply unlikely.”
Emil: You ask the $64K question and trust me if I 'Knew' the answer I'd be making $64K for an actual NFL team rather than posting on a fan site (as good as it is!) Fact is there are some pretty good options at QB this year. Darnold is a Brett Favre high-risk high-reward type guy; Rosen has the exquisite arm but with some intangible issues; Mayfield is a Russell Wilson type gym rat who fails the measurables test but is just a gamer; Jackson is a Michael Vick type superior athlete with an adequate arm; while Josh Allen is a Patrick Mahomes type with the best arm strength but is mechanically raw. And you could make a case that Most teams seem to have them rated 1) Darnold; 2) Rosen; 3) Mayfield) 4) Jackson; 5) Allen and I would assume the Giants will be in that ballpark. It is very probable though barring a trade that the pick will be determined by who is still available when they get on the clock. And as George Young famously once said: "you get as much information you can; you make the best decision you can; and then you cross your fingers." And if the pick works out we'll be calling our new GM a genius; if it doesn't it'll be what a smuck!
Hi Colin,
If the Giants want to return to the power, physical football they had been known for, who is the best QB to draft?
Also, is there an OL close to the talent of Nelson from ND that might be available in rounds 2-3?
Any thoughts much appreciated!
Emil: You ask the $64K question and trust me if I 'Knew' the answer I'd be making $64K for an actual NFL team rather than posting on a fan site (as good as it is!) Fact is there are some pretty good options at QB this year. Darnold is a Brett Favre high-risk high-reward type guy; Rosen has the exquisite arm but with some intangible issues; Mayfield is a Russell Wilson type gym rat who fails the measurables test but is just a gamer; Jackson is a Michael Vick type superior athlete with an adequate arm; while Josh Allen is a Patrick Mahomes type with the best arm strength but is mechanically raw. And you could make a case that Most teams seem to have them rated 1) Darnold; 2) Rosen; 3) Mayfield) 4) Jackson; 5) Allen and I would assume the Giants will be in that ballpark. It is very probable though barring a trade that the pick will be determined by who is still available when they get on the clock. And as George Young famously once said: "you get as much information you can; you make the best decision you can; and then you cross your fingers." And if the pick works out we'll be calling our new GM a genius; if it doesn't it'll be what a smuck!
Thank you Colin. I can't pay you for the answer, but it's certainly worth at least $32K. Looking forward to many more discussion over the next few months.
Do you even know the skillset of people who are in the organization or are you just parroting some cliche?
And the org needs change, new direction and new blood.
You want to argue with that??
Why so? If you feel like they have that in their heads already, without a head coach and GM, then that's a worst case scenario. I don't buy that one. John Mara is many things, but I can't recall a time he's ever given off the impression that he believes he knows enough to decide what philosophies on offense or defense the team will run.
If one is not in place by then, they might miss out on the guy they want. This would apply to guys like McDaniels.
By the way for those thinking it might be Saban. Heard on radio yesterday he has a 28 mil buy out
Isn't that going to depend on which HC/OC/GM combo we get?
Feels like time for a major change - clean house and find great the best people. Which...I mean that often doesn't happen when one puts absolutes in place prior to the HR process.
Agree that it doesn't -have- to be 'WUS ball' within that...but still.
This.....You can't have a great Giant's team, win home field, play home outdoor playoff games in January with a team built on Speed/Finesse. I want them to build a team that thrives in 3rd/4th and short situations on both sides of the ball. And please, give me a MLB in the mold of Harry Carson. I want a tough as nails, 10 year starter in the middle of D calling plays and punishing RBs.
Seems like, similar to Atlanta, another prolific team, Chargers run lots of inside zone and outside zone.
While there seems to be a very small handful of teams that run power/man/inside z/outside z equally and well. Those seem like outliers and less copyable, due to uniquely talented coaching and rosters.
More copiable (and ergo more poachable staff wise and maybe more doable roster wise) Chargers Lynn staff and Atlanta list at staff both with regards to run and line.
The mix we used of run types didn't seem rational nor did it work.
Jimmy Googs : 5:30 pm : link : reply
can be improved or you don't want to take the risk that leaving individuals in place will be detrimental to change.
And the org needs change, new direction and new blood.
You want to argue with that??
It is clear we need change. It is not clear that we need "new blood" or even a new direction, depending on what that direction is.
Gettleman has been a very good talent evaluator and Abrahms is a very good numbers guy. I don't know if they would be the ideal people to fill the GM role or if it is even on the radar, but to simply say we need "new blood" as if people from outside the organization are assured to be an upgrade is just blind optimism.
I know we're in the midst of a shitty season, but people acting like Reese has been a horrible GM and that the Giants org is full of idiots is just moronic.
Thanks for insights Colin!
We don't. We don't know.
So it seems doable to put together a group that will have great cohension within specifically what the OC or HC wants to do, as your RB coach will have coached the same OL system and so forth visa versa.
Another model that seems to work is when an old retread adjusts to what the young guns want to do and becomes the glue member, bringing all the bits together or going to areas of need.
For example Lynn kept Wisenhunt around. And no, Sully seems like a great guy personally but he doesn't equal a wisenhunt type .
Any more winning risks placing us in a draft slot that would require giving up future assets like draft picks. I don't think that's a game Jints Central wants to get into, especially if the next GM has no real draft record...
This is why this Eli/McAdoo thing was so horribly botched. The last thing we should want to see is Eli back in the line-up. He gives us the best chance to win - granted, those are still long odds...
There isn't a single NFL team that went into a single game "trying to lose." That's akin to playing it safe on a battle field. It's just not possible.
I can see it now that Giants fans are gonna ass hump this franchise for winning one more game here down the stretch to get to a whopping 3 wins for the year.
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There isn't a single NFL team that went into a single game "trying to lose." That's akin to playing it safe on a battle field. It's just not possible.
I can see it now that Giants fans are gonna ass hump this franchise for winning one more game here down the stretch to get to a whopping 3 wins for the year.
An organization can certainly set it up where the chances of losing are increased exponentially. For Jints Central, the time could not be more perfect - no head coach, an aging QB, a season lost with a quarter of the season lost, no GM, etc. And a tremendous chance to secure a top three pick. Simply play the remaining games like preseason - play starters for a quarter or two, then start mixing in the backups.
To not do that is a dereliction of ownership, and a insult to Jints fans.
And I’m so sick of this romance for Eli to get his job back. I’ve seen enough. Time to move on...
Big novelty check!
With small print that says "this is not a real check"
We don't. We don't know.
Which is why people "cleanhouse". They don't have time or want to take the risk to diligence everybody's thought-process or intent.
Gettleman has been a very good talent evaluator and Abrahms is a very good numbers guy. I don't know if they would be the ideal people to fill the GM role or if it is even on the radar, but to simply say we need "new blood" as if people from outside the organization are assured to be an upgrade is just blind optimism.
I know we're in the midst of a shitty season, but people acting like Reese has been a horrible GM and that the Giants org is full of idiots is just moronic.
As blind as saying nobody can found that is stronger than Gettleman or Abrahms? When you restructure something, you want to rebuild the core and let the core find its own new parts. If some of those parts are already in their seats...fine.
The most moronic thing would be to get rid of the GM and HC, but not critically examine everybody else.
Shocking...you mean some bad franchises just kind of stay bad?
I am sure that only has to do with the people in the front office, and not the guy under Center.
My position has been that we need to have a GM/HC combo that will return us to being competitive consistently.
I don't care where they come from - and I don't know where they will come from.
I'm not making definitive statements that either in-house or outside guys are sure to succeed, yet I'm seeing a lot of comments saying in house people won't or can't and hiring them is "safe and easy". With a calling for Gruden or McDaniels in the very next breath.
Fairly sure the boss is looking for a great and focussed staff and is willing to let that group have a strong purview.
My 'dos centavos' is that the new staff have a specific and demonstrable plan to achieve a top 3 run game (yards by team over a season) and that if they can do that everything else will fall into place.
Or, put that another way, if they just grasp at names and hope a Hodge podge OL staff can implement a style...that may not do it.
Eh, East Rutherford is slightly above average at best. Definitely not the greatest city in the world.
I'm not making definitive statements that either in-house or outside guys are sure to succeed, yet I'm seeing a lot of comments saying in house people won't or can't and hiring them is "safe and easy". With a calling for Gruden or McDaniels in the very next breath.
So why does it matter to you that others would rather take the risk on bringing in more outside talent than inside?
And when the hell did any individual blogger's opinion on a NYG chat room blind everybody in how to best proceed in fixing this team. Its just an opinion for christ sake no mater how definitive they write their words...
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Assuming you're right about the Giants drafting a QB with their 1st pick, then what do they do with Davis Webb? Seems to me like it was a waste to pick him.
You have to remember, at the time when they picked Webb, they couldn't have possibly predicted that they would have a top-5 overall pick a year later. They thought they were going to be contenders this year, and Webb represented solid value with an extended succession plan in mind. Obviously, the situation has played out very differently than the Giants thought it would, and the opportunity to pick so high in the draft is the only thing that really could prove to be a silver lining in what has otherwise been a disaster of a season.
Could the Giants stick to the extended succession plan that they originally had with Webb? Sure. But that doesn't really make a ton of sense if they're going to go through a rebuild of any significance. And if they do select a QB, that doesn't necessarily mean that Webb will end up having been a wasted pick. The odds of the next QB, even if he's great, being as durable as Eli has been are infinitesimal, which means that a quality backup will see some real playing time. That means that W
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In comment 13729038 Colin@gbn said:
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Assuming you're right about the Giants drafting a QB with their 1st pick, then what do they do with Davis Webb? Seems to me like it was a waste to pick him.
You have to remember, at the time when they picked Webb, they couldn't have possibly predicted that they would have a top-5 overall pick a year later. They thought they were going to be contenders this year, and Webb represented solid value with an extended succession plan in mind. Obviously, the situation has played out very differently than the Giants thought it would, and the opportunity to pick so high in the draft is the only thing that really could prove to be a silver lining in what has otherwise been a disaster of a season.
Could the Giants stick to the extended succession plan that they originally had with Webb? Sure. But that doesn't really make a ton of sense if they're going to go through a rebuild of any significance. And if they do select a QB, that doesn't necessarily mean that Webb will end up having been a wasted pick. The odds of the next QB, even if he's great, being as durable as Eli has been are infinitesimal, which means that a quality backup will see some real playing time. That means that W
cont'd
Webb will be an insurance policy and could become trade bait down the line if he shows that he's a good QB waiting in the wings.
Isn't that going to depend on which HC/OC/GM combo we get?
Feels like time for a major change - clean house and find great the best people. Which...I mean that often doesn't happen when one puts absolutes in place prior to the HR process.
Agree that it doesn't -have- to be 'WUS ball' within that...but still.
I won't speak for Retro, but all teams incorporate some WCO elements regardless of their primary scheme.