So like many I'm intrigued by the guy. But I can't get past his low completion %. Can someone who watches more college football than me explain the issue? Is it his mechanics or more of a problem of having a bad team around him? Something else?
His college completion % in a bad conference screams Blake Bortles to me. I would be thrilled with any of Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield. I would be mad if they took this guy.
This is why I love all the "gotta take a QB in round one" stuff. And "it's gotta be XXXXX, he's a FRANCHISE QB!" Hell, even the guys who do it for a living are wrong as often as they're right; but YOU know!?!?
both Rosen and Darnold were 63% thats like 3-4 more incomplete pases a game playing with no other nfl talent on his team i much worse weather then southern California.
More than Rothlesberger. Ask 5: What's the best NFL comp for Wyoming's Josh Allen? - ( New Window )
Rapistberger? What a joke. Anybody who saw Ben at Miami of Ohio and Allen at Wyoming and says they are similar should have their driver's license revoked for poor vision.
I think this is a blindspot among NFL talent evaluators, they assume they can fix guys. There's a pretty convincing correlation between college accuracy numbers and NFL success, he's well below the threshold. I'm very pro-QB, but he scares me. If we're going outliers, I think we're more likely to see Baker Mayfield find throwing lanes despite his stature than see Josh Allen learn how to be accurate in the NFL.
lots to choose from. This may be one of those rare years like 2004 where there are no bad choices among the top guys.
Allen is intriguing because he has such a set of physical tools including that cannon of an arm and he spent most of his time under center and not in the spread-shotgun. I wouldn't get too worked up over the completion percentage. 10 more completions and he's at 60%. Impressive that he is mentioned in the top 5 of the draft after 26 starts. Worth keeping an eye on him in the all-star bowl games.
More than Rothlesberger. Ask 5: What's the best NFL comp for Wyoming's Josh Allen? - ( New Window )
Rapistberger? What a joke. Anybody who saw Ben at Miami of Ohio and Allen at Wyoming and says they are similar should have their driver's license revoked for poor vision.
Don't have an opinion or care what your point is here, but you've seen a ton of Big Ben at Miami OH 15 years ago and Josh Allen at Wyoming???
As others have said, he has horrible talent around him, including Â
no OL and poor receivers who don't get open. He also seems to run even before he needs to (although that may be because he has so little faith in his receivers to get open, so that when he's rushed he immediately bails out of the pocket). And he throws everything 100 MPH.
I think this is a blindspot among NFL talent evaluators, they assume they can fix guys. There's a pretty convincing correlation between college accuracy numbers and NFL success, he's well below the threshold. I'm very pro-QB, but he scares me. If we're going outliers, I think we're more likely to see Baker Mayfield find throwing lanes despite his stature than see Josh Allen learn how to be accurate in the NFL.
Eh, we'll see when he is throwing to better receivers in the all star games. Russell Wilson never completed 60% of his passes until he transferred to WI. Carson Wentz completed the exact same pct this season with the Eagles as he did at NDS. Eli's completion percentage is the pros is the same as it was in college. Hard to say there is some correlation when college players play different schedules in different systems with less skilled receivers than the pros.
His range is Aaron Rodgers to Jake Locker. I think too big a risk. But I think Rosen's risk is as high. Allen did not have any talent to speak of around him. I can see Mayfield and Darnold as successes in the NFL before I can Allen.
The risk/reward is extremely high on both sides. The floor for other options are much higher.
I think this is a blindspot among NFL talent evaluators, they assume they can fix guys. There's a pretty convincing correlation between college accuracy numbers and NFL success, he's well below the threshold. I'm very pro-QB, but he scares me. If we're going outliers, I think we're more likely to see Baker Mayfield find throwing lanes despite his stature than see Josh Allen learn how to be accurate in the NFL.
Eh, we'll see when he is throwing to better receivers in the all star games. Russell Wilson never completed 60% of his passes until he transferred to WI. Carson Wentz completed the exact same pct this season with the Eagles as he did at NDS. Eli's completion percentage is the pros is the same as it was in college. Hard to say there is some correlation when college players play different schedules in different systems with less skilled receivers than the pros.
That's the thing. You saw Eli with limited surrounding talent in the SEC. You saw Russell Wilson playing against a stacked deck at NCST in the ACC. I don't see a significant talent deficiency at Wyoming vs. the comp to justify his lower number at Wyoming. And he's looked pretty damn bad vs. legitimate OOC competition, which is only Iowa and Oregon. To top it off, his accuracy numbers are still lower than Eli and Wilson's...56% is pretty damn bad.
I think this is a blindspot among NFL talent evaluators, they assume they can fix guys. There's a pretty convincing correlation between college accuracy numbers and NFL success, he's well below the threshold. I'm very pro-QB, but he scares me. If we're going outliers, I think we're more likely to see Baker Mayfield find throwing lanes despite his stature than see Josh Allen learn how to be accurate in the NFL.
Eh, we'll see when he is throwing to better receivers in the all star games. Russell Wilson never completed 60% of his passes until he transferred to WI. Carson Wentz completed the exact same pct this season with the Eagles as he did at NDS. Eli's completion percentage is the pros is the same as it was in college. Hard to say there is some correlation when college players play different schedules in different systems with less skilled receivers than the pros.
That's the thing. You saw Eli with limited surrounding talent in the SEC. You saw Russell Wilson playing against a stacked deck at NCST in the ACC. I don't see a significant talent deficiency at Wyoming vs. the comp to justify his lower number at Wyoming. And he's looked pretty damn bad vs. legitimate OOC competition, which is only Iowa and Oregon. To top it off, his accuracy numbers are still lower than Eli and Wilson's...56% is pretty damn bad.
Well that's a good point. I have no idea how Wyoming stacks up talent wise with the rest of the teams in its conference. FWIW, they were 5-3 in the conference which placed them 4th behind Boise, Fresno and San Diego.
He has a low completion % because he is really inaccurate. Great arm, very good athlete, but he is a project. I hate to break it to all those who poo poo him, but Davis Webb was better coming out of Cal.
More than Rothlesberger. Ask 5: What's the best NFL comp for Wyoming's Josh Allen? - ( New Window )
Rapistberger? What a joke. Anybody who saw Ben at Miami of Ohio and Allen at Wyoming and says they are similar should have their driver's license revoked for poor vision.
Don't have an opinion or care what your point is here, but you've seen a ton of Big Ben at Miami OH 15 years ago and Josh Allen at Wyoming???
Yea, crazy that I was lucky enough to be alive way back when Ben Roethlisberger was in college.
Eli started his career with Completion % in the Middling 50's--- changes in offense and his performance lifted him to the 60% range. Completion % is a moveablke stats. If you're comparing Accuracy, you need to get to very specific throws and make a judgement---it doesn't come screaming off a stat sheet.
As for Physical Talent...he's among at least 3 qb's who have the Physical Dewars Profile, and can Make All The Throws--ask Jamarcus RusselL how easily that translates to being an NFL QB
The Balance of eval on these guys is getting them on the Board and assessing their Football Intelligence and Work Ethic--- what will they do in the 144 hours that are Not Game Day?
he ad libs so much trying to make a play. He isnt catching the snap, planting his foot & throwing to the correct read : usually it looks like a chinese fire drill aroond him w/ the OL breaking down.
But his go to move seems to be pulling the ball down, rolling out, pump faking and trying to squeeze throws in at the sideline.
When he just drops back and throws, he looks like Elway.
The question is why does he do that? Sometimes he has to, sometimes he doesnt. I can definitely see the Locker comparison.
What really props the guy up besides his size & arm is the leadership and likability factor. He is friends and shows interest in everyone on the team from the defense to the coaches & equipment managers. Everybody loves the guy.
This is why I love all the "gotta take a QB in round one" stuff. And "it's gotta be XXXXX, he's a FRANCHISE QB!" Hell, even the guys who do it for a living are wrong as often as they're right; but YOU know!?!?
Agreed! Got a love the Cro-Magnon thinking on this board not knowing to what degree the actual talent is. Let’s choose a quarterback at pick #2, regardless if he’s below the talent level of other players in this draft. The question is where do they fit compared to other drafts and at what talent level are they compared to the current non-quarterback players. All I hear about these quarterbacks are great arm and talent but has a poor completion percentage, He is a great decision maker on the field but has two concussions already. He has a great pocket presents but has mental lapses. I want a player that can impact his team right away from day one. I do not care if it’s a QB, RB, DE, OT, or CB. Let’s not come to absolute conclusions about #2.
If I try to put aside my bias (as a big JA fan).... Â
The truth regarding Allen’s accuracy is probably somewhere in the middle of the extremes- it’s silly to ignore externalities inhibiting his completion % but he clearly needs to work on footwork and consistency.
The competition issues with Allen are real, evident, and obvious upon watching any Wyoming games. Yes, Wyoming plays in a poor league but they have talent inferior to that even if their mediocre opponents (check recruiting). In fact, this is the first time in quite a while that Wyoming has made consecutive bowl games because they’re traditionally an inferior program.
The sample size issues can be looked at with different perspectives; with 270 pass attempts across 11 games an additional two completions each game suddenly puts Allen’s completion rate at a very respectible64%. On the other hand, two seasons at Wyoming and a season of JC gives this issue less credence. I think what this demonstrates is that context is key. As we’ve seen with Eli, a QB can play at a much higher level with lower percentage figures due to the offensive scheme while playing at a less effective level with a higher completion percentage. Hell, if you watched Wyoming’s bowl game against Central Michigan (which entered the game with a top 5 pass defense) you would know that Allen’s performance put the game out of reach within the first quarter but the box score makes it appear to be a so-so performance.
What you know you’re getting with Allen is otherworldly arm strength, strong mobility, a big frame, an outgoing personality, and a competitive spirit. You still need to develop his consistently, accuracy, and field vision.
QB is so much more important than any other position Â
That’s why mediocre QBs like Carr and Cousins command 20+ million salaries
Also, why a mediocre QB can just sidetrack a franchise. Anyone here worried about the Cowboys as long as they have Dak at QB? Not me. But the Eagles with Wentz? How do you feel about facing Carson Wentz for the next decade?
- He has rare arm talent(compared to Elway)
- He is a big QB that is tough to bring down like Roethlisberger
- He is athletic and he can escape the pocket if he needs to
- He often goes through his progressions if the primary received is covered
- Reportedly well respected in the locker room and a hard worker
What I don’t like:
- Completion percentage is lower than expected
- He often tries to do too much and forces throws he shouldn’t make. This could be tied to him trying to overcome a lack of talent around him.
- He is very raw and needs to sit for a year to work on his mechanics (the Giants are a great destination though if Eli remains)
I am in the minority here but I am willing to take a chance on Allen if he does well in workouts and interviews. His talent doesn’t come along very often. If it wasn’t for Rosen’s concussions I would want to take a chance on him at 2 but I just think he is too risky especially with the current state of the offensive line.
RE: QB is so much more important than any other position Â
That’s why mediocre QBs like Carr and Cousins command 20+ million salaries
Also, why a mediocre QB can just sidetrack a franchise. Anyone here worried about the Cowboys as long as they have Dak at QB? Not me. But the Eagles with Wentz? How do you feel about facing Carson Wentz for the next decade?
Agreed which is why I think the Giants have to find their next QB at 2. There is so much pressure on making the right pick. If they pass on a Qb or select the wrong one then it could set this team back 5+ years. Wentz is the real deal so the Giants need to find their guy to lead us for the next 10+ years or else the Eagles will rule the east for the next decade.
Josh Allen is a big name here in Colorado. We have a lot of Wyoming Cowboys graduates and fans here. Craig Bohl is the Wyoming head coach; formerly the North Dakota State head coach. NDSU is the school Carson Wentz attended and was coached by Bohl and the current Wyoming OC, Vigen. John Elway was in attendance at the Wyoming vs Central Michigan Potato Bowl on 12/22/2017. Wyoming won big, 37-14.
The linked SI article has a quote from the Wyoming head coach about how Allen and Wentz compare. Search for "If I had a quarter" to find it. Link - ( New Window )
Is a concern but the positives are stacked for this prospect. I've seen a few games only but he looks the part. He can rip the throws and he can move. I like the Ben comp but he's even more athletic than Ben. In college Ben made a lot of highlight reel plays with his arm. He has much better college production.
Allen's INT % is very high. Not a lot of game experience.
He played about the same amount of college ball as Flacco (who played even weaker comp). Flacco was a very good athlete too but Allen is better.
He comes with a few question marks that need to be answered before the draft. I'd bet on him because the rare physical talent is obvious.
He has very little talent around him and played for a college that scheduled top schools for the revenue.
I don't see that.
There are a few articles about the excessive number of drops his receivers had.
Have no idea how much better his completion rate might have been with a better supporting cast.
Quote:
He will be either the 1-2 top draft prospect
I don't see that.
We will see
Not that worried.
Ask 5: What's the best NFL comp for Wyoming's Josh Allen? - ( New Window )
Rapistberger? What a joke. Anybody who saw Ben at Miami of Ohio and Allen at Wyoming and says they are similar should have their driver's license revoked for poor vision.
Allen is intriguing because he has such a set of physical tools including that cannon of an arm and he spent most of his time under center and not in the spread-shotgun. I wouldn't get too worked up over the completion percentage. 10 more completions and he's at 60%. Impressive that he is mentioned in the top 5 of the draft after 26 starts. Worth keeping an eye on him in the all-star bowl games.
Quote:
More than Rothlesberger. Ask 5: What's the best NFL comp for Wyoming's Josh Allen? - ( New Window )
Rapistberger? What a joke. Anybody who saw Ben at Miami of Ohio and Allen at Wyoming and says they are similar should have their driver's license revoked for poor vision.
Don't have an opinion or care what your point is here, but you've seen a ton of Big Ben at Miami OH 15 years ago and Josh Allen at Wyoming???
The risk/reward is extremely high on both sides. The floor for other options are much higher.
Quote:
I think this is a blindspot among NFL talent evaluators, they assume they can fix guys. There's a pretty convincing correlation between college accuracy numbers and NFL success, he's well below the threshold. I'm very pro-QB, but he scares me. If we're going outliers, I think we're more likely to see Baker Mayfield find throwing lanes despite his stature than see Josh Allen learn how to be accurate in the NFL.
Eh, we'll see when he is throwing to better receivers in the all star games. Russell Wilson never completed 60% of his passes until he transferred to WI. Carson Wentz completed the exact same pct this season with the Eagles as he did at NDS. Eli's completion percentage is the pros is the same as it was in college. Hard to say there is some correlation when college players play different schedules in different systems with less skilled receivers than the pros.
That's the thing. You saw Eli with limited surrounding talent in the SEC. You saw Russell Wilson playing against a stacked deck at NCST in the ACC. I don't see a significant talent deficiency at Wyoming vs. the comp to justify his lower number at Wyoming. And he's looked pretty damn bad vs. legitimate OOC competition, which is only Iowa and Oregon. To top it off, his accuracy numbers are still lower than Eli and Wilson's...56% is pretty damn bad.
Quote:
In comment 13774532 AcesUp said:
Quote:
I think this is a blindspot among NFL talent evaluators, they assume they can fix guys. There's a pretty convincing correlation between college accuracy numbers and NFL success, he's well below the threshold. I'm very pro-QB, but he scares me. If we're going outliers, I think we're more likely to see Baker Mayfield find throwing lanes despite his stature than see Josh Allen learn how to be accurate in the NFL.
Eh, we'll see when he is throwing to better receivers in the all star games. Russell Wilson never completed 60% of his passes until he transferred to WI. Carson Wentz completed the exact same pct this season with the Eagles as he did at NDS. Eli's completion percentage is the pros is the same as it was in college. Hard to say there is some correlation when college players play different schedules in different systems with less skilled receivers than the pros.
That's the thing. You saw Eli with limited surrounding talent in the SEC. You saw Russell Wilson playing against a stacked deck at NCST in the ACC. I don't see a significant talent deficiency at Wyoming vs. the comp to justify his lower number at Wyoming. And he's looked pretty damn bad vs. legitimate OOC competition, which is only Iowa and Oregon. To top it off, his accuracy numbers are still lower than Eli and Wilson's...56% is pretty damn bad.
He also definitely has some footwork and accuracy issues (tho I personally think it's overblown). But a legit concern for sure.
Quote:
In comment 13774547 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13774532 AcesUp said:
Quote:
FWIW, they were 5-3 in the conference which placed them 4th behind Boise, Fresno and San Diego.
5-1 with him. 0-2 without
Obviously much worse (tho probably not terrible).
Just adding some additional info. Without Allen that offense was atrocious
Quote:
In comment 13774526 David B. said:
Quote:
More than Rothlesberger. Ask 5: What's the best NFL comp for Wyoming's Josh Allen? - ( New Window )
Rapistberger? What a joke. Anybody who saw Ben at Miami of Ohio and Allen at Wyoming and says they are similar should have their driver's license revoked for poor vision.
Don't have an opinion or care what your point is here, but you've seen a ton of Big Ben at Miami OH 15 years ago and Josh Allen at Wyoming???
Yea, crazy that I was lucky enough to be alive way back when Ben Roethlisberger was in college.
What?
Eli started his career with Completion % in the Middling 50's--- changes in offense and his performance lifted him to the 60% range. Completion % is a moveablke stats. If you're comparing Accuracy, you need to get to very specific throws and make a judgement---it doesn't come screaming off a stat sheet.
As for Physical Talent...he's among at least 3 qb's who have the Physical Dewars Profile, and can Make All The Throws--ask Jamarcus RusselL how easily that translates to being an NFL QB
The Balance of eval on these guys is getting them on the Board and assessing their Football Intelligence and Work Ethic--- what will they do in the 144 hours that are Not Game Day?
You really can't compare across eras like that. Passing was far less efficient 35 years ago.
But his go to move seems to be pulling the ball down, rolling out, pump faking and trying to squeeze throws in at the sideline.
When he just drops back and throws, he looks like Elway.
The question is why does he do that? Sometimes he has to, sometimes he doesnt. I can definitely see the Locker comparison.
Agreed! Got a love the Cro-Magnon thinking on this board not knowing to what degree the actual talent is. Let’s choose a quarterback at pick #2, regardless if he’s below the talent level of other players in this draft. The question is where do they fit compared to other drafts and at what talent level are they compared to the current non-quarterback players. All I hear about these quarterbacks are great arm and talent but has a poor completion percentage, He is a great decision maker on the field but has two concussions already. He has a great pocket presents but has mental lapses. I want a player that can impact his team right away from day one. I do not care if it’s a QB, RB, DE, OT, or CB. Let’s not come to absolute conclusions about #2.
The competition issues with Allen are real, evident, and obvious upon watching any Wyoming games. Yes, Wyoming plays in a poor league but they have talent inferior to that even if their mediocre opponents (check recruiting). In fact, this is the first time in quite a while that Wyoming has made consecutive bowl games because they’re traditionally an inferior program.
The sample size issues can be looked at with different perspectives; with 270 pass attempts across 11 games an additional two completions each game suddenly puts Allen’s completion rate at a very respectible64%. On the other hand, two seasons at Wyoming and a season of JC gives this issue less credence. I think what this demonstrates is that context is key. As we’ve seen with Eli, a QB can play at a much higher level with lower percentage figures due to the offensive scheme while playing at a less effective level with a higher completion percentage. Hell, if you watched Wyoming’s bowl game against Central Michigan (which entered the game with a top 5 pass defense) you would know that Allen’s performance put the game out of reach within the first quarter but the box score makes it appear to be a so-so performance.
What you know you’re getting with Allen is otherworldly arm strength, strong mobility, a big frame, an outgoing personality, and a competitive spirit. You still need to develop his consistently, accuracy, and field vision.
Also, why a mediocre QB can just sidetrack a franchise. Anyone here worried about the Cowboys as long as they have Dak at QB? Not me. But the Eagles with Wentz? How do you feel about facing Carson Wentz for the next decade?
- He is a big QB that is tough to bring down like Roethlisberger
- He is athletic and he can escape the pocket if he needs to
- He often goes through his progressions if the primary received is covered
- Reportedly well respected in the locker room and a hard worker
What I don’t like:
- Completion percentage is lower than expected
- He often tries to do too much and forces throws he shouldn’t make. This could be tied to him trying to overcome a lack of talent around him.
- He is very raw and needs to sit for a year to work on his mechanics (the Giants are a great destination though if Eli remains)
I am in the minority here but I am willing to take a chance on Allen if he does well in workouts and interviews. His talent doesn’t come along very often. If it wasn’t for Rosen’s concussions I would want to take a chance on him at 2 but I just think he is too risky especially with the current state of the offensive line.
Also, why a mediocre QB can just sidetrack a franchise. Anyone here worried about the Cowboys as long as they have Dak at QB? Not me. But the Eagles with Wentz? How do you feel about facing Carson Wentz for the next decade?
Agreed which is why I think the Giants have to find their next QB at 2. There is so much pressure on making the right pick. If they pass on a Qb or select the wrong one then it could set this team back 5+ years. Wentz is the real deal so the Giants need to find their guy to lead us for the next 10+ years or else the Eagles will rule the east for the next decade.
It's also only 4% underneath Josh Rosen's avg who is considered the mpost accurate QB available
Denver Post article:
https://www.denverpost.com/2017/09/22/josh-allen-wyoming-qb/
The linked SI article has a quote from the Wyoming head coach about how Allen and Wentz compare. Search for "If I had a quarter" to find it.
Link - ( New Window )
Allen's INT % is very high. Not a lot of game experience.
He played about the same amount of college ball as Flacco (who played even weaker comp). Flacco was a very good athlete too but Allen is better.
He comes with a few question marks that need to be answered before the draft. I'd bet on him because the rare physical talent is obvious.