NFT: Knicks Chat: Mediocre team

what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be.

In comment 13782849 Jan in DC said:

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what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be.

People hate to hear it but W/L mean very little this season (especially if they miss the playoffs).

-Beasley (likely won't be back)
-KOQ (won't be back)
-Jack (won't be back)
-Sessions (won't be back)
-Dougie (may or may not be back)

I mean without Beasley I think it's safe to say the Knicks have at least 2-3 less wins. If they win games because KP/Frank/ThJr come together and play well then yes wins matter but Michael Beasley dropping 30 and carrying them to a win doesn't do a ton for for next years team. It's nothing to build on. In fact, a "solid" run of games from Willy and/or Dotson is more valuable than a "Beasley-win" or a "KOQ shuts down Boogie" win.

In comment 13782849 Jan in DC said:

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what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be.

Who has "developed"? If they have overachieved it's been in large part because of contributions from players who have no future here - or are unlikely to have a future here.

In comment 13782857 Enzo said:

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In comment 13782849 Jan in DC said: Quote: what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be. Who has "developed"? If they have overachieved it's been in large part because of contributions from players who have no future here - or are unlikely to have a future here.

+10

..that's all. If the Knicks can deal off some of the vets for future chips while Frank, KP and hopefully Gomez finish strong, it would be a good year. This possible scenario isn't out of the question yet.

In comment 13782750 DanMetroMan said:

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much as I love KP... the numbers say he's had a moderate breakout but not some "wow" development. Rookie year .102 WS/48, this season .111.

There's no doubt in my mind KP will not truly break out until he is a full time 5, which won't happen with Hornacek because he simply lacks the imagination. I pretty much agree with Dan on everything. Hornacek is a problem for this team, he's just not a modern enough NBA coach to deal with how unique KP is.

Knicks had a lot of success earlier running KP/Frank combos, and that 100% should be something that you let happen for 75% of Franks minutes. Let them run a 2 man game over and over, results be damned.

the two man game would force Frenchy to shoot. He needs the reps.

and improve his decision making - but he's going to continue to struggle if the offense consists of him either battling for post position or trying to create his own shot off the dribble from 25 feet out.

In comment 13782867 djm said:

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..that's all. If the Knicks can deal off some of the vets for future chips while Frank, KP and hopefully Gomez finish strong, it would be a good year. This possible scenario isn't out of the question yet.

For sure, but I have a problem "assuming" this will happen unless it does.

In comment 13782872 Sgrcts said:

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In comment 13782750 DanMetroMan said: Quote: much as I love KP... the numbers say he's had a moderate breakout but not some "wow" development. Rookie year .102 WS/48, this season .111. There's no doubt in my mind KP will not truly break out until he is a full time 5, which won't happen with Hornacek because he simply lacks the imagination. I pretty much agree with Dan on everything. Hornacek is a problem for this team, he's just not a modern enough NBA coach to deal with how unique KP is. Knicks had a lot of success earlier running KP/Frank combos, and that 100% should be something that you let happen for 75% of Franks minutes. Let them run a 2 man game over and over, results be damned.

I'm not even particularly clear what Hornacek's strengths are. What would someone point to?

Where would you say "okay I have to admit Hornacek is really strong at..."? I'm genuinely curious. He's supposed to be an offensive minded coach, does anyone ever see any semblance of original/inventive offense?

anytime we assume anything good with the Knicks we end miserable.

I was going to start a thread about how you guys think the Knicks will handle the next 2-3 years and if and when they try and go for it? Let's assume they trade off one or two of these vets--and they re-sign Kanter on a relatively affordable 2-3 year deal. OK...so here we are 2 years from this very spot. They have an additional 2 young players from next 2 drafts...where do they go from there? Do they make that "big" move before 2 years out? Do they make it after? What is that move?

Kind of impossible to forecast these next 2-3 years but if you assume the Knicks just hold things down and maybe commit to only Kanter...I would think they have room for one big splash in 2-3 years. I guess we have to wait and see....but I wonder what they could do. Assuming Frank is a solid PG. Hardaway is a solid player. KP. Etc...

Knicks are in a good position to be a pretty good team in 2 years. We will find out if this new FO will have the vision to do the right thing or if ownership will continue to pressure them to win now.

has them giving a good effort on defense most nights (we're ranked 15th) which is cause for celebration around here. Other than that, I can't point to anything else I like about him. Actually, I like that orange tie he wears. It's pretty sharp.

In comment 13782872 Sgrcts said:

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In comment 13782750 DanMetroMan said: Quote: much as I love KP... the numbers say he's had a moderate breakout but not some "wow" development. Rookie year .102 WS/48, this season .111. There's no doubt in my mind KP will not truly break out until he is a full time 5

agree. Unfortunately, the morons building the roster the last few years didn't see things that way - and they don't quite have the personnel to play him significant minutes there.

consensus of this board's expectations for the season are far different. They seem to want to win first and then development of young players other than KP and Frank seems to be farther down the line. I also think our critique's, mine included, can be a bit hyperbolic. At this point I personally would like to see a bit more stability in the organization, so I'd like to see if Hornacek can learn and grow with the team.
Someone mentioned running the Frank/KP pick and roll more often. If they do, I hope that KP focuses on rolling more. It seems to me that he often misses opportunities at the rim by picking and then fading back for a jump shot.

think they are, but I still doubt they make very many moves this year, if any. I think the biggest key will be Kanter. Unless something drastic happens the Knicks won't have max cap space until 2020. If they sacrifice that cap space for players like Kanter, I will be disappointed. On the other hand, if they do an about face and start trading away pieces, I personally wouldn't mind trying to keep Beasley with the mid level exception and seeing if Hicks has any hope of being an NBA talent.

hard time seeing how people can both give Hornacek/The Knicks the benefit of the doubt AND be pro-keeping Kanter. Pretty clearly Hornacek does not believe Kanter's offense is SO good that his defense can be ignored. That's an issue.

That's why I believe it would be disappointing if they re-signed Kanter when the time comes. Not only would it kill any available cap space, but also I agree with the poster above who thinks KP should play center. It seems to me that KP struggles with perimeter defense and with bigger players. I can imagine KP bulking up a bit to handle the bigger players, but I struggle to see him improving his perimeter defense. That being said, I'd rather see the Knicks thin out the center position so that KP can play more at that spot.

In comment 13782987 DanMetroMan said:

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hard time seeing how people can both give Hornacek/The Knicks the benefit of the doubt AND be pro-keeping Kanter. Pretty clearly Hornacek does not believe Kanter's offense is SO good that his defense can be ignored. That's an issue.

I really don't SEE where Kanter's defense is so awful. Maybe not the best. But he's a tough guy in there and doesn't back down.

The surprise for me is that Kanter can't seem to get into a Knicks game after the first few minutes of the fourth. Odd.

In comment 13783072 Beezer said:

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In comment 13782987 DanMetroMan said: Quote: hard time seeing how people can both give Hornacek/The Knicks the benefit of the doubt AND be pro-keeping Kanter. Pretty clearly Hornacek does not believe Kanter's offense is SO good that his defense can be ignored. That's an issue. I really don't SEE where Kanter's defense is so awful. Maybe not the best. But he's a tough guy in there and doesn't back down. The surprise for me is that Kanter can't seem to get into a Knicks game after the first few minutes of the fourth. Odd.

But the proof is in the pudding right? He's no longer player late in games and at times basically is benched for the 4th quarter (he himself has acknowledged this). So again I ask, how can people both be supportive of Hornacek AND of Kanter. Either Hornacek knows what he's doing and Kanter is THAT bad on defense or Hornacek doesn't know what he's doing.

in these games down the stretch but I doubt it. Kanter is what he is. HE's a pretty valuable rebounder and low post junk scorer who tries but can't play good enough D to close out games. He can help the team win a lot of regular season games if the surrounding talent is in place. YOu would need that low post defender or two to swap out when needed.

Kanter can serve a purpose but you can't overpay. I don't think Horn has mis-handled Kanter here at all. Doesn't mean I like Horn that much.

If you don't want to bring back Kanter that's fine too. Just have to make sure the dollars Kanter would take here are spent wisely on a different player.

In comment 13782857 Enzo said:

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In comment 13782849 Jan in DC said: Quote: what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be. Who has "developed"? If they have overachieved it's been in large part because of contributions from players who have no future here - or are unlikely to have a future here.

I think that KP has obviously progressed. And I just used the word "develop" and not said players specifically because it's obvious that they've gone from a Melo iso team to developing a team dynamic.

I totally agree that the players that are not going to be here are dominating the playing time. Hopefully the front office recognizes this and makes some shrewd moves at the deadline to get us some younger assets.

My main point was that any increase in expectations now would have been mostly unfathomable at the beginning of the season, and if judged by that standard the season has been successful thus far, though it's disappointing to lose games like these Chicago games.

I agree with Dan, I have no idea what Hornacek is doing with the rotations. Also, the crunch time offense has Michael Beasley playing the role of Melo.

At this point, the young guys should be playing, because Frenchie will only get better with playing time.

Overall, this team is better off losing and moving higher in the draft.

Personally, I wanted to see how things unfolded as time goes on. When the Kanter trade happened, I wanted to move him right away. Then when he played really well, I could see the case for keeping him around. Now that we are in mid January, I don't see how we could keep him. He's young and a good player, but the timing just doesn't work with what we currently have. I don't see any justification for keeping him at this point. Like I said yesterday, maybe we have the opportunity to bring him back in 2 years when we have the cap space and we are more of a mature team.

What I don't think is that he's healthy, and I don't think he's been healthy for a while, which is concerning in its own way.

really helps KP in a way. He's sort of a bigger more physical defender. We've all seen KP look pretty fatigued some nights. I just am not sure he's got the stamina currently to bang with centers. So I think Kanter is sort of an ideal compliment to him, at least defensively.

But I do agree, we have a glut at center, and Kanter is going to get paid by SOMEONE. I'm not sure if it should be the Knicks. I go back and forth, depending on the night.

...it seems like forever:

Fan dissatisfaction, aggressive trades and moves in order to try for a 'quick fix'.

Result, team without a particular style, or identity.

Prospective coaches showed no respect, feels like a revolving door.

It takes time to erase that. Calm down people.

It may be true that Hornys vision doesn't match the team EXACTLY - right at the moment. But that doesn't give fans a reason to suddenly ditch him. You establish a respectable stability and improve from there.

Kantor/Porz respective and best rolls on this team will become more clear over time ....additional draft picks next year will help further rationalize the roster.

what if the front office views the current Knicks situation similar to the Giants situation? There was little reason to play Davis Webb this year because the offensive talent was so poor that he couldn't learn or grow. Similarly, maybe the best way for KP and Frank to progress is to surround them with players with experience and some ability, thus giving them a better nba experience to learn from. Instead of assuming that selling off all of the veteran players is better for growth, it could also be argued that it's the exact opposite. I don't know, just a random thought.

Of course, some people see a weird puzzle and want to tip the table over then run out to Toys Are Us and buy a different, also unfinished, puzzle.

I say...your only a couple of pieces away. Patience.

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