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Value and Allen, Rosen and Darnold

gidiefor : Mod : 1/11/2018 10:37 pm
After watching a good deal of tape on all three of these guys and Webb too for comparison, Allen, Rosen and Darnold have a versatility factor and ability to throw that is on a very different level than Webb. Each of the three of them have sizzle that Webb just does not have:

Webb has a strange little hitch in his throwing motion and almost always lofts the ball -- it often comes down on target but he doesn't always reach the target. He is better at long throughs than short throws, his shorter throws don't have zip, and his throw seems a little awkward.

Rosen's throwing motion is smoother and he can throw the ball accurately with real authority and zip on short passes, he throws accurately on long passes, he spreads the ball around the field, his footwork is awesome, the thing that bothered me in his college games is that his ball throwing mostly seemed a little low to me, low enough that against NFL competition he gets intercepted or batted down more imo, but he seemed to find his mark even so, but many times just narrowly. I will say this, the ball gets in there and it gets there fast.

Allen moves really well in the pocket, can get away from trouble, and he throws a laser with accuracy, and great trajectory. He makes some terrific throws and they look fantastic too his throwing motion is very fluid, he also has a real cannon and is very accurate.

Darnold seems streaky, and he's inventive. He also throws a real laser with great accuracy. He moves around great and is elusive in the pocket, but his throwing motion is not as fluid as Allen and Rosen, he seems to flick it, and the ball gets out a beat quicker.

I thought that if I was making comparisons to them Allen is more Brett Favre, Darnold is more Elway/Wilson, and Rosen is more Eli Manning in style. Webb is just not in this league at all.

Thing is that each these three guys do look like the real deal and that they have great value. A blue chip QB prospect has to be a greater value than a position player, even one as terrific as Barkley is, and I think Barkley is an extremely good player, I just don't see how he has more value than a great QB prospect. Unless a team is going to knock the Giants socks off with incredible value, I just don't think they will be getting value at number 2 if they aren't picking one of these three QBs.
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RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13784882 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:


Quote:


The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?



What I saw at training camp was progress from his college throwing motion. But it obviously was not natural to him, which is understandable. All about reps for a kid like that.

I am standing by my opinion of him...he is going to be a very high quality backup for a long time.


Thanks. If reps are what this young man needs then put me in the group of people who wonder WTH the former HC was doing when the season went down the tubes and no reps were given.

Not even in practice from the sounds of it. (until the very end)

Strange.
There's no mystery  
JonC : 1/12/2018 2:33 pm : link
BM was trying to save his job, he determined Geno over Eli might spark his best chance to pull it off.

This suggests Webb is not ready for focused practice reps, let alone more. If they're still working on his footwork, study, ability to read defenses, work from under center, they're re-working a lot of his fundamental mechanics and busting his comfort zone. It takes time, which BM didn't have.

Coaches were all focused on saving their jobs.
RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/12/2018 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:
Quote:
The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?


I am/was comparing tapes of college game time for all of them -- so that I can compare apples to apples. Webb has not really played in the NFL except in preseason, and I did not review his preseason performance. In college tape -- it really is clear that Webb does not have anything close to the skill set and sizzle of Allen, Rosen and Darnold coming out of college.

I did not look thoroughly at Mayfield -- I disqualified him because of his off-field behavior - but if he somehow was in the same skill range as Allen, Rosen and Darnold - that does not change much of the thinking that I expressed above.

As to Allen -- his throws are startlingly accurate on the whole in my opinion -- I saw some Rodgers/Favre attributes in him, including some Hail Mary's (and when I say some this was not a single isolated throw - there were several) that were absolutely thrillingly stunning - 1 chance in a million type throws - right on the money. But while they stand out that is not the only thing that led me to my accuracy conclusion. Allen throws a really good ball and can make all the throws with authority, both when he is set (and he has decent footwork when he sets himself by the way), and on the run when he is unable to use good footwork.

You want to pan Allen statistically for being behind a shit oline and not having decent position players to throw to? That's not what I was looking at -- I was looking at his ability. In fact I looked at zero stats - only film.

Surprise..The Giants will  
Alwaysblue22 : 1/12/2018 2:49 pm : link
NOT take another QB... they will trade down and build around ELI and for now Webb. Maybe you really don't believe what Gettleman has said. I do not believe from what I hear that he thinks we need another QB, and he intends on fixing the O-LINE and he really means it, unlike Reese. There is no QB that can step in and play right out of college except for Baker Mayfield. And DG wants BIG GUYS so Mayfield would not appeal to him.
RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Thegratefulhead : 1/12/2018 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13784904 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:


Quote:


The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?



I am/was comparing tapes of college game time for all of them -- so that I can compare apples to apples. Webb has not really played in the NFL except in preseason, and I did not review his preseason performance. In college tape -- it really is clear that Webb does not have anything close to the skill set and sizzle of Allen, Rosen and Darnold coming out of college.

I did not look thoroughly at Mayfield -- I disqualified him because of his off-field behavior - but if he somehow was in the same skill range as Allen, Rosen and Darnold - that does not change much of the thinking that I expressed above.

As to Allen -- his throws are startlingly accurate on the whole in my opinion -- I saw some Rodgers/Favre attributes in him, including some Hail Mary's (and when I say some this was not a single isolated throw - there were several) that were absolutely thrillingly stunning - 1 chance in a million type throws - right on the money. But while they stand out that is not the only thing that led me to my accuracy conclusion. Allen throws a really good ball and can make all the throws with authority, both when he is set (and he has decent footwork when he sets himself by the way), and on the run when he is unable to use good footwork.

You want to pan Allen statistically for being behind a shit oline and not having decent position players to throw to? That's not what I was looking at -- I was looking at his ability. In fact I looked at zero stats - only film.
I think you would see the same thing when you scout Jay Cutler. I have huge arm talent, can still sling it 60 yards at 50, I can hit a telephone pole 55 yards away. I can't do that consistently, but I can do it. Accuracy is statistics, not the eye test. I don't care if he can make a one in a million throw. NFL QBs need to be consistently accurate. Allen is not good enough.
RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 3:08 pm : link
In comment 13784904 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:


Quote:


The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?



I am/was comparing tapes of college game time for all of them -- so that I can compare apples to apples. Webb has not really played in the NFL except in preseason, and I did not review his preseason performance. In college tape -- it really is clear that Webb does not have anything close to the skill set and sizzle of Allen, Rosen and Darnold coming out of college.

I did not look thoroughly at Mayfield -- I disqualified him because of his off-field behavior - but if he somehow was in the same skill range as Allen, Rosen and Darnold - that does not change much of the thinking that I expressed above.

As to Allen -- his throws are startlingly accurate on the whole in my opinion -- I saw some Rodgers/Favre attributes in him, including some Hail Mary's (and when I say some this was not a single isolated throw - there were several) that were absolutely thrillingly stunning - 1 chance in a million type throws - right on the money. But while they stand out that is not the only thing that led me to my accuracy conclusion. Allen throws a really good ball and can make all the throws with authority, both when he is set (and he has decent footwork when he sets himself by the way), and on the run when he is unable to use good footwork.

You want to pan Allen statistically for being behind a shit oline and not having decent position players to throw to? That's not what I was looking at -- I was looking at his ability. In fact I looked at zero stats - only film.


Thanks gidiefor, i think. ;)

Was this whole post for me?
RE: There's no mystery  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13784900 JonC said:
Quote:
BM was trying to save his job, he determined Geno over Eli might spark his best chance to pull it off.

This suggests Webb is not ready for focused practice reps, let alone more. If they're still working on his footwork, study, ability to read defenses, work from under center, they're re-working a lot of his fundamental mechanics and busting his comfort zone. It takes time, which BM didn't have.

Coaches were all focused on saving their jobs.



What you said (as usual sir) makes a lot of sense.

My question now is why, after BM was canned, did we not make an effort to give the kid more reps? (until last week of season)

At that point everyone knew what was gonna happen. We should have been trying to see what we have.
Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
JonC : 1/12/2018 3:20 pm : link
Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.
RE: Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13784991 JonC said:
Quote:
Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.


Hmm, we are about to have the chance to draft a QB really high and have a relatively unknown QB that we just drafted already on the roster.

We knew we were cleaning house.

Best decision for the GIANTS was to let the coaches who most likely wouldn't be here next year put what THEY thought was the best team out on the field?

We should have been evaluating in my uneducated and humble opinion.
RE: RE: Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
Victor in CT : 1/12/2018 3:41 pm : link
In comment 13785023 Snacks said:
Quote:
In comment 13784991 JonC said:


Quote:


Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.



Hmm, we are about to have the chance to draft a QB really high and have a relatively unknown QB that we just drafted already on the roster.

We knew we were cleaning house.

Best decision for the GIANTS was to let the coaches who most likely wouldn't be here next year put what THEY thought was the best team out on the field?

We should have been evaluating in my uneducated and humble opinion.


Evaluating what? It's been said in this thread and others ad nauseum: Webb was a reach/project who was not ready to play norperhaps even practice. And to force him in behind that OL with what as left of their receiving corp would have been criminally irresponsible.
RE: RE: RE: Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 3:52 pm : link
In comment 13785038 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13785023 Snacks said:


Quote:


In comment 13784991 JonC said:


Quote:


Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.



Hmm, we are about to have the chance to draft a QB really high and have a relatively unknown QB that we just drafted already on the roster.

We knew we were cleaning house.

Best decision for the GIANTS was to let the coaches who most likely wouldn't be here next year put what THEY thought was the best team out on the field?

We should have been evaluating in my uneducated and humble opinion.



Evaluating what? It's been said in this thread and others ad nauseum: Webb was a reach/project who was not ready to play norperhaps even practice. And to force him in behind that OL with what as left of their receiving corp would have been criminally irresponsible.


Victor, I understand that. I really do. Webb IS a project and i'm not saying he should have seen game action. I'm thinking we should have bumped him up to #2 a lot earlier than we did, maybe get him a series or two toward the end of the year. Eli i think has said himself the best thing for a young QB sometimes is to get out there and learn from mistakes. (or something like that)

Not saying I know better than anyone here. In fact, i'm probably wrong. But that's why i love this place. I think it's a great place to talk football.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
Victor in CT : 1/12/2018 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13785065 Snacks said:
Quote:
In comment 13785038 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 13785023 Snacks said:


Quote:


In comment 13784991 JonC said:


Quote:


Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.



Hmm, we are about to have the chance to draft a QB really high and have a relatively unknown QB that we just drafted already on the roster.

We knew we were cleaning house.

Best decision for the GIANTS was to let the coaches who most likely wouldn't be here next year put what THEY thought was the best team out on the field?

We should have been evaluating in my uneducated and humble opinion.



Evaluating what? It's been said in this thread and others ad nauseum: Webb was a reach/project who was not ready to play norperhaps even practice. And to force him in behind that OL with what as left of their receiving corp would have been criminally irresponsible.



Victor, I understand that. I really do. Webb IS a project and i'm not saying he should have seen game action. I'm thinking we should have bumped him up to #2 a lot earlier than we did, maybe get him a series or two toward the end of the year. Eli i think has said himself the best thing for a young QB sometimes is to get out there and learn from mistakes. (or something like that)

Not saying I know better than anyone here. In fact, i'm probably wrong. But that's why i love this place. I think it's a great place to talk football.


That I agree with. At 0-5 there was no reason to give 2nd team snaps to Smith instead of Webb
RE: RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/12/2018 4:24 pm : link
In comment 13784971 Snacks said:
Quote:

Thanks gidiefor, i think. ;)

Was this whole post for me?


no -- the comments on Allen were to address some other posters comments about his lack of accurasy
RE: RE: RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 4:30 pm : link
In comment 13785130 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13784971 Snacks said:


Quote:



Thanks gidiefor, i think. ;)

Was this whole post for me?



no -- the comments on Allen were to address some other posters comments about his lack of accurasy


Got it. Good post gidiefor.
RE: Allen  
montanagiant : 1/12/2018 5:25 pm : link
In comment 13784684 Dragon said:
Quote:
Did also play in Wyoming not exactly the best weather conditions compared to California.

Excellent point
I hope we take a long, long look at Mr. Allen.  
bceagle05 : 1/12/2018 5:31 pm : link
He can really sling a football.
RE: RE: Allen's accuracy issues are a bit overblown  
montanagiant : 1/12/2018 5:35 pm : link
In comment 13784726 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13784588 montanagiant said:


Quote:


He has a 56.2% completion ratio
Darnold is at 64%

The other factors to take into account is Wyoming was all Allen. They had no other skill players on that Offense in 2017 and had only one skill player drafted from 2016 (Hill RB 5th rd). Both of his starting WR's from 2016 graduated. There is zero talent besides Allen on that team.

Darnold has the #4 rated RB in the Draft in Jones and a possible 1st rd pick in WR Burnett. The difference is staggering as far as supporting cast goes




Who played against tougher opponents?

In relation to Talent on the team? The argument could be made that it's Wyoming. As far as who played a tougher schedule it's USC but once again you have One team that will most likely have 6 players drafted vs the other team that will have only 1. That's not even counting that fact that USC will have other 4-5 players signed as UFA while Wyoming won't have a single one.
My top three  
RAIN : 1/12/2018 6:48 pm : link
I got Darnold ahead of Rosen, because of the escapability and what he could do without an Online. He looks alot like Russell Wilson in all honesty. Not quite as nifty on the run, but pretty close.

I got Rosen as a pure passer that is really accurate and can go to the third read pretty quickly. He's a surgeon that can climb the pocket and throw it deep with amazing accuracy.

I got Barkley at three, because he's ridiculous. You could make an offense around him.

The top two are fairly polished for college QB's though, and interviews there will be critical. If your convinced that Josh Allen is a winner with impeccable character and you want to roll the dice, I would only trade down a spot or two to get him. He's got everything you want ala Wentz, but does he have Wentz's worth ethic and leadership at a young age?

In all of these scenario's, the interviews are what are critical and demand the most attention, because the on-field stuff is very promising in all three QB cases aside from the RB (whom I think is a sure thing in every respect).
Was any of the tape of Webb beyond college?  
steve in ky : 1/13/2018 1:51 pm : link
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