what pieces do they have to do so? I had this on the Patricia favorite thread but figure it might be worth it's own thread.
Here are my guess at current Giants (yes with resigned FAs) and what positions they would fit in a 3-4:
NT - Snacks/Tomlinson
DE - JPP/Bromley
DE - Vernon/Wynn (If OV to small for a 3-4 DE move Bromley)
LOLB - Okwara (was a LB at ND)/???
ROLB - Vernon(?) / Williams
RILB - Goodsen / Draft Pick
LILB - Kennard / Draft Pick
CB - Jenkins/ DRC
CB - Cockrell/Apple
SS- Collins/Adams
FS - Thompson/Draft Pick
I think Okwara would be perfect as OLB - played some LB at ND and he looked good dropping into zone coverage a couple times and he has a decent pass rush.
Anyway, make corrections or add FAs or draft picks.
I'm sorry but, its going to take me some time to see your handle on here and not immediately see Marc Ross's face.
Maybe things will be different, in time.
But for right now, I'm just not ready.
Giants won two super bowls with a 3-4 defense under Parcells.
It is a question, not a foregone conclusion. It is a thread different than the 20 a day on the #2 pick or who is the next coach.
But as we were discussing in the pinned thread on Matt Patricia, the Patriots were a team that didn't use their base D (whether it was a 3-4 or 4-3 and they've switched multiple times over the years) extensively.
they run sub-packages like the big nickel more than the 4-3 or 3-4.
That does mean though they need to emphasize versatility in their LB's as well as have/or have at least 3 safeties.
Think back to Deion Grant on the Giants. That defense is similar to what the Patriots run, only the Giants strength was their DE's, Pats the LB's (to an extent).
Yeah I know you need 4 LBs instead of 3.
The #1 reason to switch is Snacks - the best 34NT in the league, the Giants most dominant force defensively and a truly special talent. Building the scheme around Snacks to maximize his utility is a sound plan.
The DE’s can be 2 styles - 1 a penetrator/disruptor (think JJ Watt, Malik Jackson or Joey Bosa). I love JPP in this spot. The other DE would be the run stuffer and a perfect spot for Dalvin Tomlinson, who played 34DE in college for Saban.
Then the LBs - I really like OV in the old Carl Banks position at LOLB. (I think hes a strongside player more than weskside).
When it shakes out the 3-4 looks like this:
LOLB - Olivier Vernon
LDE - Jason Pierre-Paul
NT - Snacks
RDE - Dalvin Tomlinson
ROLB - ???
RILB - B.J. Goodson
LILB - ???
**This front would be a bitch to run against.
Lining up OV on the outside shoulder of JPP should create big problems for blocking schemes.
The Giants would still need a speed rushing ROLB Elephant and a 3-down ILB - but they need that now anyways.
Devon Kennard would be a key re-sign: He can back up all 4 LB spots and even start at ROLB until they found their guy.
JPP at this point in his career would probably serve as a solid 3-4 end with Snacks in the middle. Vernon would be an OLB. If you resign Kennard his best fit might be 34 OLB. You would have to find at least another MLB who can cover ground.
Everyone on BBI gets all hyped about 3-4 or 4-3 and most teams barely are ever in either.
exactly. i posted twice already that the Pats are not a traditional 3-4 team. Their defense is year to year and even week to week in terms of personnel groupings and formations. They are primarily a 2-Gap base D that uses a bunch of different looks.
True - I'm only trying to see if a 3-4 is possible with what the Giants have. I like the multiple styles that the Pats run, but in order to do so you need the pieces to shuffle around. The Giants obviously need better LBs to even consider a move to 3-4, but just something to do to fill the day.
Quote:
3-4 proponents need to pay attention more to what the Patriots are actually running. Like many teams, they aren't pegged into one system.
exactly. i posted twice already that the Pats are not a traditional 3-4 team. Their defense is year to year and even week to week in terms of personnel groupings and formations. They are primarily a 2-Gap base D that uses a bunch of different looks.
No doubt, and agree with thise saying the Giants have been running plenty of 34 concepts the last 3 years under Spags. Part of the reason I know OV and even JPP could be good 34OLBs is how often they play from a 2 pt. stance already.
Correct. They are "multiple" in their defensive fronts.
It allows you to be flexible and depending on the opponent, change what you want to do so you can have an advantage over your opponent.
The Giants need a major infusion of speed added to their defense. The only way to make Collins play “faster” is to move him up.
If a switch is made to a 3-4, JPP might be a better LB than Vernon. JPP has played that role a bit, like when Kiwi was hurt. Also his hand problem would not be as big a problem at LB. JPP at rush LB could be pretty effective. Flexibility to play 4-3 would still be there.
If they come with a run look bring Collins up to the line amd drop DRC in a trafitional S look.
Felx out a TE or add a slot reciever and DRC can line up over him and Collins can line up as a S or LB
Both DRC and Collins blitz better the any LB we have had in forver.
Plus, as mentioned (by Joey?) the Patriots have managed to switch base D from 3-4 to 4-3 over an off-season, having a player like Wilfork made it easy, as big as he was, he still had versatility to play 3-4 NT or 4-3 DT, and Snacks has that same versatility IMO.
I still think the Giants probably lack the athletic LB's a coach like BB (or presumably Patricia) would emphasize, but that isn't scheme dependent IMO, it's more of an overall defensive philosophy.
You have available without changing the set: the 5-0-6
3 True DTs (Tomlinson/a NT type draft pick/Snacks)
1 'DE' (jpp strong side)
1 'DE/LB' (OV other side)
1 'S/LB' (Collins)
2 S (Adams and Thompson)
3 Cover corners
and that's without additionals that may come in draft
DNA- yeah minus all of the 80's and early 90's.... Sure....
Ummm, they can easily switch. This idea that it is like going from flying a kite to the Space Shuttle is nuts.
Vernon could go to 3/4 OLB, JPP is basically a 3/4 end now with more run game ability than pass rush. We would need LB'ers but hello, we fucking need LB'ers now.... They would just be a little different..
But Eric, many here act like making the switch would be too tough and too foreign.,. Bullshit... It can easily be done. This is the NFL not freaking Pee Wee football.
the 5-0-6 brings you much bigger average D linesmen (and 5) and much faster quicker back 6
its got 3/4 or '46' roots, only:
- take 2 of your 4 (the 3/4's LBs) and make them more DL-like (heavier etc) and ....2 other of the 4... make them more safety-like (much quicker and faster with better cover instincts) and you have a 5-0-6
another way of looking at it would be a 'modified' '46' with your formerly known as a 'stud lb' (lined up near the TE) being an actual DE with anti-run OL handing leverage ability....and as above with the other lbs.
If you DO do a 3/4...
...use 3 true DTs....2 of your LBs have to be actually DE-like, not smaller versions...and 2 basically fully functioning safeties...not rehashed old fashioned mikes.
so, Kennard MAYBE as a big...maybe...but Goodson would not have a roll either way.
sort of indicates why a 3/4 nowadays (taking into account quick release passing game) maybe really ought to be a 5-0-6
its either bigger and badder, or smaller and much faster and with more field vision.
Bill Belichick Explains changing defense - ( New Window )
Quote:
.
I'm sorry but, its going to take me some time to see your handle on here and not immediately see Marc Ross's face.
Maybe things will be different, in time.
But for right now, I'm just not ready.
I really don’t give a shit. That’s your problem
It's not a 3-4 and it's not a 4-3. It is a situational mix.
It's not a 3-4 and it's not a 4-3. It is a situational mix.
Exactly! Correct! BB has explained this on many occasions.
In some ways the 4-2-5 "mimics" the 3-4 of the Giant's past by having four rushers (LT rushed more than he covered passes); two inside LBs (Like Carson & Reasons/VanPelt) to protect against RB plays tackle-to-tackler and 4 DBs (3 fast CBs like the nickel to cover the outside WR and the slot WR; and one tough SS to matchup with a hybrid TE/H-backs.