The approach with this OL

we will have to spend major FA dollars and we will be competing with a lot of teams. Another option is the trade market which we seem alergic to.

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years.

Solder won’t be worth the LT money
Hope that Wheeler gets a chance

and perhaps a thrifty value veteran to insert between Flowers, Richburg, and Pugh could do wonders.

I think they still have talent. They're not so hot next to each other, but with a vet in between them, that could shore things up.

I just don't see him leaving NE. His son was just diagnosed with cancer in November. He would have to be away from his family during this tough time, or move the whole family. Moving would disrupt his treatment and they would gave to find a new medical team. Just a gut feeling, but it's not an ordinary situation.

In comment 13824764 Jolly Blue Giant said:

Quote:

I just don't see him leaving NE. His son was just diagnosed with cancer in November. He would have to be away from his family during this tough time, or move the whole family. Moving would disrupt his treatment and they would gave to find a new medical team. Just a gut feeling, but it's not an ordinary situation.

You could get him closer to better places for treatment. Seriously, he could live close enough to Philly and the stadium and have his child get some of the best treatment he can have at CHOP.

He could, but there are a lot of non football factors at play. People become close to their doctors sometimes. Or maybe, he doesn’t like the treatment or the doctors. My point is, I wouldn’t be surprised if he stays in NE for non football reasons.

Knocking on the doors of Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder, hard.

I know the chance he might not leave is a concern but if he hits the FA market, which he should if he wants more money then we should hit it hard

Norwell and Soldier would turn this oline into a legit unit.
Then we add either Price (OSU) in Rd 2 or Cole (UM ) in rd 3 for center or at least RT Guard and back up center.

Oline becomes
Solder-Norwell-Jones(at lease at first)-Price/Cole-Wheeler/Flowers
or
Solder -Norwell-Price/Jones-Flowers-Wheeler
or
Solder-Norwell-Jones-Cole-FLowers

If we don't get Solder then resign Fluker
Wheeler-Norwell-Price/Jones-Fluker-Flowers

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

Yes...but
we would have to be lacking for another year at another spot and that would prob be linebacker unless we take one in rd 2 or 3 that plays very well.

I think Norwell should be a top priority. There are a few less expensive veteran stop gap options out there too.

John Sullivan played Center for the Vikings last year and I assume he has a good relationship with Shurmur. He's in the twilight of his career but could be a good 1 or 2 year stopgap on a reasonable deal.

Bringing Pugh back makes sense too.

on offensive linemen.

I'd like to see Fluker back as well.

LT is not available at this moment. Solder is not a good option. Might have to deal with a stop gap for a year. Maybe that guy is Flowers, or someone that gets cut, maybe they go with someone on the roster like Wheeler, or pick up an average type FA. Maybe an up and coming guy like Hubbard from the Steelers, depending on money, that can play all the positions.

Look at injury guys on one year contracts like Jack Mewhort.

Without knowing money its hard to say "who" but this is the theory I would use, players come from all different ways, but my approach would be to Spend on Norwell and then fill in with a cheaper mixture of middle of the pack guys and cheap rehabilitation guys like Fluker was this past year.

Then draft for the future.

In comment 13824785 Brown Recluse said:

Quote:

I think Norwell should be a top priority. There are a few less expensive veteran stop gap options out there too. John Sullivan played Center for the Vikings last year and I assume he has a good relationship with Shurmur. He's in the twilight of his career but could be a good 1 or 2 year stopgap on a reasonable deal. Bringing Pugh back makes sense too.

Sullivan's last year with the Vikings was 2014. In 2014, Shurmer was with the Eagles.

I like Sullivan though, but I'm biased since I went to High School with him.

That comes first. The Giants looked like they ran a hodge-podge of schemes and the Olineman looked confused for years. Once you pick one you get players that fit, not just get whomever you can get like fans want you to do.

How to do find hidden gems? First get a player that can do what you do. Coach him up and if he works hard, amazing you found a gem.

Some players are scheme versatile, most are not. We've all heard the term putting a player in a position to be successful. Do it!!!

So if Gettleman is going to fix this team he must get on the same page as Shurmur and find out what Oline blocking schemes he's going to run. Get players that excel at it. Sounds simple but no it's not.

The first question is footwork, if you want dancing elephants they are hard to find. Dancing bears are easier and IMO fit the outside zone best. The outside zone is an amazing scheme that allows smaller nimble Olineman to overpower bigger Dlineman. But it takes footwork and coordination. We've seen Pugh and Richburg fail to do that, in a pure outside zone they should. I'm guessing that Pugh knows this and wants to go to a team that uses that scheme.

I think the dearth of quality Olineman in the NFL is their own fault. The schemes are too complex and they want YUGE men to be very nimble, those types are few. They want you to punch like Mike Tyson and dance like Ali at the same time.

Look at film of the Denver Broncos under Shanahan. They took smaller nimble Olineman and good but average backs that could run in that scheme. Denver ground out great running attacks. The players all fit the scheme perfectly and it worked.

This mixing of man and zone, inside and outside zone even on the same play doesn't work. The defenses know what's coming most all of the time keep it simple, let them play to their strengths and gel as a unit.

is that once Eli is gone they will have a lot of cap room to address other needs for 3-4 years. If they sign Solder and Norwell then they push the cap hit to later years to fit both under this years cap along with a new deal for Beckham and Collins. Then in rounds 3 on they could add a developmental OT like a Desmond Harrison or Alex Cappa type that could provide depth for a couple of seasons before taking over for Solder when he begins to break down.

and then add several lesser FA offensive linemen that can start for a year to allow the Giants to finish fixing the offensive line in next years FA draft.
Re-sign: Brett Jones and Fluker
Sign Norwell, Chris Hubbard, Ty Neskhe, and John Sullivan in FA
Draft OT Desmond Harrison in round 3, G/T Wyatt Heller in round 4
The OL next season
LT Wheeler/Nsekhe/Harrison
LG Norwell/Heller
C Sullivan/Jones
RG Fluker/Flowers/Heller
RT Flowers/Hubbard

Still a good option though.

I'm hoping at least 1 will still be there.

If Jason Peters gets cut, I'd take a shot on him. Shurmur knows Joe Berger from the Vikings, and he can play center and either guard spot.

Assuming Price isn't there, one of

Hernandez, Wynn or Daniels.

In comment 13824829 jeff57 said:

Quote:

If Jason Peters gets cut, I'd take a shot on him. Shurmur knows Joe Berger from the Vikings, and he can play center and either guard spot.

Nick Easton is a more attractive option. He is only 26 and he can play both guard and center. He played very well for the Vikings at LG last season and he could be a breakout candidate.

In comment 13824825 njm said:

Quote:

I'm hoping at least 1 will still be there.

If Wynn is there they Giants have to take him regardless of what they do in free agency. He is going to be a stud guard for a long time.

(a real big IF)
then to me Sy's analysis suggests trading down.
Grab the best avail OL (without spending #2) and a very good RB.
This would start filling the DG/PS vision for "run/stop the run".

have been acquired via FA, e.g., going back to Ron Stone, Lomas Brown, Sean O'Hara, McKenzie. Even Baas, though career was short, was good enough in '11.

Would love to bring in a couple including Norwell. And I think DG and Shurm will do much better job of identifying OL talent than we've had for a while.

is how it takes 3+ years for college OL to adjust to the pro game, if at all. If that's true, and not some nonsense peddled by the Giants mouthpieces over the past few years to justify that dynamic duo's lack of development, then we simply cannot rely on the draft to fix the line.

We need to bring in free agents who can contribute at a high(er) level immediately, which is going to be costly. But is necessary.

In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said: Quote: but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market? They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years.

The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though.

And outside of Snacks, it hasn't really worked out for us. Forcing ~100M in guarantees on the OL in seller's market just seems like a recipe for longterm mediocrity to me. I'm not saying we shouldn't dip into the pool at all, but we should be smart and pick our spots. Solder is a guy that strikes me as a huge risk, he's been pretty up and down while dealing with injuries. Signing Pugh to a team friendly deal is a pipe dream as well, he's going to seek out top dollar and most likely get it.

In comment 13824838 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

In comment 13824829 jeff57 said: Quote: If Jason Peters gets cut, I'd take a shot on him. Shurmur knows Joe Berger from the Vikings, and he can play center and either guard spot. Nick Easton is a more attractive option. He is only 26 and he can play both guard and center. He played very well for the Vikings at LG last season and he could be a breakout candidate.

He's a restricted FA I believe

seems a must unless they love Barkley so much or Chubb. Trade down...get more picks, lower 1st round pick and take your OL.

Problem I have is that almost every draft roundup I have read has Quenton Nelson in the top 10. I know Sy doesn't think much of Nelson so is everybody else wrong?

In comment 13824923 jeff57 said:

Quote:

In comment 13824838 Jay on the Island said: Quote: In comment 13824829 jeff57 said: Quote: If Jason Peters gets cut, I'd take a shot on him. Shurmur knows Joe Berger from the Vikings, and he can play center and either guard spot. Nick Easton is a more attractive option. He is only 26 and he can play both guard and center. He played very well for the Vikings at LG last season and he could be a breakout candidate. He's a restricted FA I believe

I just saw that. It will be interesting to see what level he is tendered at. I assume he will get a 2nd round tender, which he is not worth signing then, but if he is tendered at the lowest level then he can be signed without any compensation as he is a former UDFA.

In comment 13824897 regulator said:

Quote:

is how it takes 3+ years for college OL to adjust to the pro game, if at all. If that's true, and not some nonsense peddled by the Giants mouthpieces over the past few years to justify that dynamic duo's lack of development, then we simply cannot rely on the draft to fix the line. We need to bring in free agents who can contribute at a high(er) level immediately, which is going to be costly. But is necessary.

The 3+ years of development is horseshit. Us fans have become indoctrinated in the Giants inability to draft/develop lineman for so long that our view in tainted. Last year we were told by numerous respected posters that there were no OL worth drafting. Yet, Cam Robinson is playing LT in the AFC Championship game. Ryan Ramczyk played in the divisional round of playoffs for the Saints.

the breathtaking incompetence of the previous front office is a low bar, and the change of administration alone would help.

Personally, I'd get rid of the whole bunch like Minnesota did last season; none of these people are irreplaceable and they all stink. None of them are worth keeping just because they are here already.

Failing that, there should be a crowd of FA, UDFA and draft choices to compete with the leftovers for jobs. The best 7 or 8 stay, the rest, whether vets here or not, goodbye.

Morning guys: Interesting discussion as usual. Let me agree with Sy that it is highly unlikely that the Giants 'fix' the OL via the 2018 draft and any upgrades will ahve to come through free agency.

However I have a slightly different take on the OL and FA. The fact is you don't need a great OL to be effective in the NFL. What you need is a good competent group and then your skill players take over. Stated another way, there is really only a marginal difference in winnability in the NFL when you go from a good to a very good to an elite offense line. Compare that with QB where a good QB gets you to .500, a very good one gets you to the playoffs and an elite one gets you to the Super Bowl on multiple occasions. same with DEs where a good DE doesn't really help all that much.

Bottom line is that you really don't need to invest $10-12M in one pro bowl OG; you need 5-6 guys that simply know how to play the game. In that sense, it is very possible that the Giants can do what Minnesota did last year and that is rebuild a competitive line by signing a number of mid-priced OL.

Speaking of the draft, though, as several people have mentioned there is a good chance that a G/C type like Hernandez, Price or Wynn is available at #34 and that would certainly help. The problem going forward for the Giants though is assuming they take a QB at #2 this year (and for the record that's what they are going to do) they are likely going to need both a new LT (those guys just don't come free in FA) and at least one and maybe two DEs in 2019. Those are both first round positions so when I do mocks I am always looking at one of those two to get a head start on next year; i.e., I think the Giants look at those G/Cs if like a Chris Snee they are imply too talented to pass on but don't take an interior OL just for need. Should be a really interesting off-season.

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

Team has plenty of cap space and can create more.

Have a chance to make a jump and be a legit starter? Maybe a guy like Wheeler?

Also, am I wrong in my thinking that the interior positions in this draft are much stronger than the tackle position?

In comment 13824897 regulator said:

Quote:

is how it takes 3+ years for college OL to adjust to the pro game, if at all. If that's true, and not some nonsense peddled by the Giants mouthpieces over the past few years to justify that dynamic duo's lack of development, then we simply cannot rely on the draft to fix the line. We need to bring in free agents who can contribute at a high(er) level immediately, which is going to be costly. But is necessary.

Hart blew chunks and the new FO performed a public service throwing him out. Flowers is a bum who is doing the same things in the same way as was stated in his draft report. He was a bust at #9 and it is time to admit it. Fluker is the kind of failed #1 pick to which Jerry Reach was drawn like flies to stink. He can't pass block and if he can't pass block, he's near worthless to us. Pugh is a mediocrity- not great at anything. After watching Kelce in the SB, our centers are laughable. The rest are not even worth discussing.

The message for the hangers on has to be: "competition is coming; seriously up your game or you will be hitting the bricks."

In comment 13824952 Colin@gbn said:

Quote:

Morning guys: Interesting discussion as usual. Let me agree with Sy that it is highly unlikely that the Giants 'fix' the OL via the 2018 draft and any upgrades will ahve to come through free agency. However I have a slightly different take on the OL and FA. The fact is you don't need a great OL to be effective in the NFL. What you need is a good competent group and then your skill players take over. Stated another way, there is really only a marginal difference in winnability in the NFL when you go from a good to a very good to an elite offense line. Compare that with QB where a good QB gets you to .500, a very good one gets you to the playoffs and an elite one gets you to the Super Bowl on multiple occasions. same with DEs where a good DE doesn't really help all that much. Bottom line is that you really don't need to invest $10-12M in one pro bowl OG; you need 5-6 guys that simply know how to play the game. In that sense, it is very possible that the Giants can do what Minnesota did last year and that is rebuild a competitive line by signing a number of mid-priced OL. Speaking of the draft, though, as several people have mentioned there is a good chance that a G/C type like Hernandez, Price or Wynn is available at #34 and that would certainly help. The problem going forward for the Giants though is assuming they take a QB at #2 this year (and for the record that's what they are going to do) they are likely going to need both a new LT (those guys just don't come free in FA) and at least one and maybe two DEs in 2019. Those are both first round positions so when I do mocks I am always looking at one of those two to get a head start on next year; i.e., I think the Giants look at those G/Cs if like a Chris Snee they are imply too talented to pass on but don't take an interior OL just for need. Should be a really interesting off-season.

Good post Colin.

But, no way Pugh signs a "Team Friendly" deal. He has been talking about getting paid for a few years now and some team will pay him.

Like the interior lineman a lot better. They'll have to get an LT in FA. If not Solder, then a cap casualty.

Some team is going to pay Pugh reasonably big bucks. You may not think so, but it's going to happen. It's just the way it is because of supply and demand, and because Pugh has already trumpeted that it's about the money all year long. He is also, talent-wise, one of the best OGs on the FA market, and he's a swing tackle too. The risk with him is keeping him on the field, not his talent. I just don't think that the Giants are going to be willing to pay him what he thinks he's worth, hence he will sign elsewhere.

is Gettleman has a pretty good track record of building an o-line without relying on just high draft picks and/or high-priced UFAs. He's found quality from UDFAs (Norwell), other team's practice squads (Mike Remmers), and mid-round picks (Daryl Williams, 4th round.)

In comment 13825008 gidiefor said:

Quote:

Some team is going to pay Pugh reasonably big bucks. You may not think so, but it's going to happen. It's just the way it is because of supply and demand, and because Pugh has already trumpeted that it's about the money all year long. He is also, talent-wise, one of the best OGs on the FA market, and he's a swing tackle too. The risk with him is keeping him on the field, not his talent. I just don't think that the Giants are going to be willing to pay him what he thinks he's worth, hence he will sign elsewhere.

Good let somebody else overpay him for his 11 games a year of at best mediocrity.

-Drafted Trai Turner in the third round 2014: two-time pro bowler.

-Signed Michael Oher to a bargain-basement contract in 2015: was starting LT on a Super Bowl team, only allowing four sacks and drawing three penalties all season. The negative here is that DG gave Mr. Blindside a large second contract before recurring concussions ended his career shortly after.

I think Colin is right about this. No matter how much we may drool over Barkley and Chubb.

It's not a regular draft QB wise. There are at least 6 legitimate first round QB options this year. There hasn't been more than 2 legitimate first round QBs in any draft class since Eli was drafted. It makes sense to go with the strength of the draft, and Darnold and Rosen, are both very strong and legitimate candidates at 2, Allen may be as well.

I also think trading-down is probably not the best move to make. I love Eli - but having a franchise QB in the wings behind him now is smart football management. The draft is really about thinking down the road. I do think the Giants will also draft LBs, OLs and DBs this year.

The only thing that tingles at the back of my neck is losing out on Chubb -- Barkley as good as he is will not fix the Giants -- but Chubb could.

In comment 13824777 superspynyg said:

Quote:

Knocking on the doors of Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder, hard. I know the chance he might not leave is a concern but if he hits the FA market, which he should if he wants more money then we should hit it hard Norwell and Soldier would turn this oline into a legit unit. Then we add either Price (OSU) in Rd 2 or Cole (UM ) in rd 3 for center or at least RT Guard and back up center. Oline becomes Solder-Norwell-Jones(at lease at first)-Price/Cole-Wheeler/Flowers or Solder -Norwell-Price/Jones-Flowers-Wheeler or Solder-Norwell-Jones-Cole-FLowers If we don't get Solder then resign Fluker Wheeler-Norwell-Price/Jones-Fluker-Flowers

I like Price in Round 2, or Isaiah Wynn. But, if we don't get Solder, I think the Giants should try to get the best OT on the board at the top of rd2. There should be some guys who can start on the board still at that point.

Rookie 2nd Rd- Norwell- Jones- Fluker- Flowers/Wheeler.

Sign a vet swing tackle like Cameron Fleming or Chris Hubbard

I'm of the opinion that the right big money guy....
Britt in VA : 8:50 am : link : reply
and perhaps a thrifty value veteran to insert between Flowers, Richburg, and Pugh could do wonders.

I think they still have talent. They're not so hot next to each other, but with a vet in between them, that could shore things up.

Two of those guys can't stay on the field, and will want big money after their rookie contracts.....and the other guy sucks....

As for Solder, there is talk he is thinking of retiring, due to the injuries he has had....and if he doesn't, he will be asking for the moon...

As Sy said, you don't use the #2 pick on an OLman.....we still don't know if we are going to pick a QB yet, which means a draft pick that won't see the field, and provide immediate help.....and if you trade down, you have to find a team willing to make a serious move with you.....drafted OLmen may start, but will take years to develop....well, if you are a drafted Giant OLman that is....

for Giants to not take QB if they have great conviction on one. Should definitely have the chance at Rosen, and then either Darnold/Allen whichever Browns pass on.

I'm thinking Darnold is the guy if Browns go Allen at 1.

Nate Solder - He's risky because he's getting older and he's the only quality LT in the FA class. He likely could become the top paid OL in the NFL. Without signing Solder, or barring a trade, it seems likely the Giants head into the draft with Wheeler and Flowers as the possible LTs. There simply aren't any mid tier LTs in FA. In terms of the draft, I think the odds are any potential plug and play LT will go in Round 1.

Andrew Norwell - He's likely to command a large contract, potentially $12m a year, and he should. He's young and one of the best left guards in football. However, left guard isn't as difficult a position to fill and there are mid-tier guys available in free agency. Additionally, there should be guys available in the draft who could be quality starting guards in the NFL.

I'll be very interested to see how the Giants handle this. I would probably sign Norwell and not sign Solder (unless it's a more reasonable deal) and then look to draft two to three offensive linemen in the draft. I would even consider trading back into Round 1 to get a left tackle.

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

if we don't this team will look exactly as it did last season....