Stefanski should be upset about this. They passed him over for a promotion by someone outside the organization and then they don't allow him to come here for a promotion? This isn't a good decision as it might deter future coaches from picking Minnesota if they have multiple options. If Stefanski wants to be a HC someday he first needs to establish himself as an OC.
Hahaha and just like that...
Not a chance in hell it deters future coaches.
OK well if you are a promising young assistant and the Vikings and team B offer you the same position you might be hesitant to take the Vikings job as they might not let you leave. I wasn't saying that nobody will take the Vikings job but I can promise you it COULD be a factor.
Except that every single team in the NFL has done this at one point or another.
In the real world if a better opportunity comes along, you resign your position with (usually) a 2 week notice and you move up the corporate latter. I guess these guys are considered labor in the same sense as the players?
Denying permission seems so .... anti-american. I guess they don't want key parts of their coaching staff all going to the same place. Too much familiarity if the Giants have to face the Vikings in the NFC championship next year?
That's why I always sign contracts with my pen ... (the one filled with invisible ink).
They are contract employees, not at-will employees. If they get fired, they still receive their full contract value. In exchange for that security, they sacrifice full autonomy in making job changes when it suits them.
Its just not fair to these guys. Its a tough business as it is, they are hired and fired at will. They shouldn’t be blocked from promotions.
They are paid out for their full contract if/when they get fired, just like any other guaranteed contract employee in any other industry, most of which are also subject to non-compete clauses. There's nothing at-will about that. I'm failing to see what's unfair here other than the Giants not getting access to the guy who Shurmur seemed to favor for OC.
In Minn, he remains a QB Coach and works under a guy whose never game-planned or called a game.
It wasn't exactly a successful tenure, but DeFilippo has been an OC before (Cleveland, 2015) and was under a defensive HC at the time, so he absolutely has gameplanned and called plays before.
In the real world if a better opportunity comes along, you resign your position with (usually) a 2 week notice and you move up the corporate latter. I guess these guys are considered labor in the same sense as the players?
Denying permission seems so .... anti-american. I guess they don't want key parts of their coaching staff all going to the same place. Too much familiarity if the Giants have to face the Vikings in the NFC championship next year?
That's why I always sign contracts with my pen ... (the one filled with invisible ink).
They are contract employees, not at-will employees. If they get fired, they still receive their full contract value. In exchange for that security, they sacrifice full autonomy in making job changes when it suits them.
Thanks Gator ...
It just seems wrong. These guys are assistants. I doubt he makes much more than around $250,000./yr? Another team (and the fact that they are the Giants makes no difference this time) .... wants to potentially offer him a job that points in an upward slant/curve and puts him in a nice place where (if successful), he might be considered for a HC position that will get him a multi-year, multi-million dollar/per year opportunity.
Who is to say that he will never get another chance at the upper echelon of NFL staffs (not me) .... but, this would have been a nice start towards what might have been financial security for him and his family? Who knows ....? He must be 1 hell of a QB coach?
@ScoutKelley on twitter brought up an interesting name- Â
Todd Downing Was Raiders OC last year but before that was QB coach w/Raiders (2016-15),Bills (2014),Lions (2013-11,Ass't QB Coach Lions (2010-09) only 37,fits many of the characteristics of Stefanski w/the plus of being an OC
QB Coach and May lose their OC. No way they lose a coach to a division rival.And no way they lose 2 coaches never mind three going into this season. Unless Staley's contract is up which I don't believe it is.
...OC is a clear promotion over a position coach. They need to clearly delineate the levels of coaches.
HC
OC/DC/ST
positions
It was a AHC nonsense that caused this. Teams were giving the AHC title to position coaches to claim that was a promotion (or to block one).
I really don't think people understand what being a contract employee means, compared to at-will employment. If you're a contract employee (in any industry), you don't get to leave your company for a competitor just because the competition offers you a promotion. This situation is hardly unique to the NFL. If anything, the NFL is generally more lenient about it than other industries would typically be.
In another industry leaving for a competitor generally means a business competitor. Leaving for another NFL club with profit sharing isn't exactly the same thing. To that end it's understandable that they are more lenient, they aren't jumping ship to another professional league.
I don't disagree with your overall point, but thats a bad comparison.
In another industry leaving for a competitor generally means a business competitor. Leaving for another NFL club with profit sharing isn't exactly the same thing. To that end it's understandable that they are more lenient, they aren't jumping ship to another professional league.
I don't disagree with your overall point, but thats a bad comparison.
That's fair in a business sense, but coaches (certainly not assistant coaches) don't really impact the bottom line. They do impact the product on the field, and it is specifically in that context where opposing teams are the competition. I realize the analogy isn't exactly perfect, but I think it's fair in that specific context.
...OC is a clear promotion over a position coach. They need to clearly delineate the levels of coaches.
HC
OC/DC/ST
positions
I agree with 1 small change. I'd lump ST coach in with positional coaches.
As is, the rule makes no sense. OC/DC is a clear promotion. It places a successful OC/DC right in line toward becoming a HC.
Do team owners actually vote for this shit?
It used to be you could break a contract to leave for a promotion from position coach to a coordinator, but too many teams were giving guys promotions in title only. And as I said earlier in this thread, it would've essentially been a promotion in title only for Stepanski. Sure, he would've had some added responsibilities when it came to game planning, but it wouldn't've been his offense and he wouldn't've been calling the plays. His main value to the Giants would've been as QB coach, which was his main value to the Vikings, so why should they let him break his contract over that?
Look at it this way, they don't let players break contracts to leave one team for another team even if it might've meant a "promotion" from being a backup on one team to a starter on another. And players have much shorter careers than coaches (potentially speaking), so the lost time is more costly to them.
It's somewhat of a dick move, but some dick moves are more understandable than others. If Patricia had become the head coach and wanted to hire Stepanski to install and run the offense, it would've been more of a dick move.
WHther it's all legal or not, everybody got strung along Â
and when the music stopped. it was us that was standing. We either should have had an immediate fall-back or we should have predicted this and been more pro-active and moved on before it ever started. Fishing from a large pool is always better than fishing from an empty one.
...OC is a clear promotion over a position coach. They need to clearly delineate the levels of coaches.
HC
OC/DC/ST
positions
I agree with 1 small change. I'd lump ST coach in with positional coaches.
As is, the rule makes no sense. OC/DC is a clear promotion. It places a successful OC/DC right in line toward becoming a HC.
Do team owners actually vote for this shit?
It used to be you could break a contract to leave for a promotion from position coach to a coordinator, but too many teams were giving guys promotions in title only. And as I said earlier in this thread, it would've essentially been a promotion in title only for Stepanski. Sure, he would've had some added responsibilities when it came to game planning, but it wouldn't've been his offense and he wouldn't've been calling the plays. His main value to the Giants would've been as QB coach, which was his main value to the Vikings, so why should they let him break his contract over that?
Look at it this way, they don't let players break contracts to leave one team for another team even if it might've meant a "promotion" from being a backup on one team to a starter on another. And players have much shorter careers than coaches (potentially speaking), so the lost time is more costly to them.
It's somewhat of a dick move, but some dick moves are more understandable than others. If Patricia had become the head coach and wanted to hire Stepanski to install and run the offense, it would've been more of a dick move.
No, I would be happy that he stayed but I would still call it a dick move.
Quote:
In comment 13828764 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Stefanski should be upset about this. They passed him over for a promotion by someone outside the organization and then they don't allow him to come here for a promotion? This isn't a good decision as it might deter future coaches from picking Minnesota if they have multiple options. If Stefanski wants to be a HC someday he first needs to establish himself as an OC.
Hahaha and just like that...
Not a chance in hell it deters future coaches.
OK well if you are a promising young assistant and the Vikings and team B offer you the same position you might be hesitant to take the Vikings job as they might not let you leave. I wasn't saying that nobody will take the Vikings job but I can promise you it COULD be a factor.
Except that every single team in the NFL has done this at one point or another.
In the real world if a better opportunity comes along, you resign your position with (usually) a 2 week notice and you move up the corporate latter. I guess these guys are considered labor in the same sense as the players?
Denying permission seems so .... anti-american. I guess they don't want key parts of their coaching staff all going to the same place. Too much familiarity if the Giants have to face the Vikings in the NFC championship next year?
That's why I always sign contracts with my pen ... (the one filled with invisible ink).
They are contract employees, not at-will employees. If they get fired, they still receive their full contract value. In exchange for that security, they sacrifice full autonomy in making job changes when it suits them.
They are paid out for their full contract if/when they get fired, just like any other guaranteed contract employee in any other industry, most of which are also subject to non-compete clauses. There's nothing at-will about that. I'm failing to see what's unfair here other than the Giants not getting access to the guy who Shurmur seemed to favor for OC.
It wasn't exactly a successful tenure, but DeFilippo has been an OC before (Cleveland, 2015) and was under a defensive HC at the time, so he absolutely has gameplanned and called plays before.
Quote:
Seriously , -
In the real world if a better opportunity comes along, you resign your position with (usually) a 2 week notice and you move up the corporate latter. I guess these guys are considered labor in the same sense as the players?
Denying permission seems so .... anti-american. I guess they don't want key parts of their coaching staff all going to the same place. Too much familiarity if the Giants have to face the Vikings in the NFC championship next year?
That's why I always sign contracts with my pen ... (the one filled with invisible ink).
They are contract employees, not at-will employees. If they get fired, they still receive their full contract value. In exchange for that security, they sacrifice full autonomy in making job changes when it suits them.
Thanks Gator ...
It just seems wrong. These guys are assistants. I doubt he makes much more than around $250,000./yr? Another team (and the fact that they are the Giants makes no difference this time) .... wants to potentially offer him a job that points in an upward slant/curve and puts him in a nice place where (if successful), he might be considered for a HC position that will get him a multi-year, multi-million dollar/per year opportunity.
Who is to say that he will never get another chance at the upper echelon of NFL staffs (not me) .... but, this would have been a nice start towards what might have been financial security for him and his family? Who knows ....? He must be 1 hell of a QB coach?
HC
OC/DC/ST
positions
HC
OC/DC/ST
positions
It was a AHC nonsense that caused this. Teams were giving the AHC title to position coaches to claim that was a promotion (or to block one).
I really don't think people understand what being a contract employee means, compared to at-will employment. If you're a contract employee (in any industry), you don't get to leave your company for a competitor just because the competition offers you a promotion. This situation is hardly unique to the NFL. If anything, the NFL is generally more lenient about it than other industries would typically be.
In another industry leaving for a competitor generally means a business competitor. Leaving for another NFL club with profit sharing isn't exactly the same thing. To that end it's understandable that they are more lenient, they aren't jumping ship to another professional league.
I don't disagree with your overall point, but thats a bad comparison.
In another industry leaving for a competitor generally means a business competitor. Leaving for another NFL club with profit sharing isn't exactly the same thing. To that end it's understandable that they are more lenient, they aren't jumping ship to another professional league.
I don't disagree with your overall point, but thats a bad comparison.
That's fair in a business sense, but coaches (certainly not assistant coaches) don't really impact the bottom line. They do impact the product on the field, and it is specifically in that context where opposing teams are the competition. I realize the analogy isn't exactly perfect, but I think it's fair in that specific context.
HC
OC/DC/ST
positions
I agree with 1 small change. I'd lump ST coach in with positional coaches.
As is, the rule makes no sense. OC/DC is a clear promotion. It places a successful OC/DC right in line toward becoming a HC.
Do team owners actually vote for this shit?
Quote:
...OC is a clear promotion over a position coach. They need to clearly delineate the levels of coaches.
HC
OC/DC/ST
positions
I agree with 1 small change. I'd lump ST coach in with positional coaches.
As is, the rule makes no sense. OC/DC is a clear promotion. It places a successful OC/DC right in line toward becoming a HC.
Do team owners actually vote for this shit?
Look at it this way, they don't let players break contracts to leave one team for another team even if it might've meant a "promotion" from being a backup on one team to a starter on another. And players have much shorter careers than coaches (potentially speaking), so the lost time is more costly to them.
It's somewhat of a dick move, but some dick moves are more understandable than others. If Patricia had become the head coach and wanted to hire Stepanski to install and run the offense, it would've been more of a dick move.
Quote:
In comment 13829120 Torrag said:
Quote:
...OC is a clear promotion over a position coach. They need to clearly delineate the levels of coaches.
HC
OC/DC/ST
positions
I agree with 1 small change. I'd lump ST coach in with positional coaches.
As is, the rule makes no sense. OC/DC is a clear promotion. It places a successful OC/DC right in line toward becoming a HC.
Do team owners actually vote for this shit?
It used to be you could break a contract to leave for a promotion from position coach to a coordinator, but too many teams were giving guys promotions in title only. And as I said earlier in this thread, it would've essentially been a promotion in title only for Stepanski. Sure, he would've had some added responsibilities when it came to game planning, but it wouldn't've been his offense and he wouldn't've been calling the plays. His main value to the Giants would've been as QB coach, which was his main value to the Vikings, so why should they let him break his contract over that?
Look at it this way, they don't let players break contracts to leave one team for another team even if it might've meant a "promotion" from being a backup on one team to a starter on another. And players have much shorter careers than coaches (potentially speaking), so the lost time is more costly to them.
It's somewhat of a dick move, but some dick moves are more understandable than others. If Patricia had become the head coach and wanted to hire Stepanski to install and run the offense, it would've been more of a dick move.
Very well said, Milton.
Do you think OCs only work on gameday?
Significant, OCs job goes beyond calling plays.