And saying he didn't have a winning record in college , so therefore he will be terrible in the NFL.
Well Matt Leinart was 37-2 in college , and turned out to be one of the biggest NFL qb busts of all time.
So please stop using that Bill Parcells quote , that all that matters for a qb is his win loss record in college.
Its a false measuring line , that collapses on itself.
p.s.--the concussions don't concern me at all.
The only thing way off with people who don’t like Rosen are those citing character concerns. They seem so bogus to me. And now everything he says those same people claim he’s just trying to cover himself pre draft. Very strange.
2. Milton's obsession
He had should surgery.
2. Milton's obsession
1. Not concerned in the slightest.
2. Completely eliminates him from consideration.
Especially defensive positions such as linebacker, and even linemen. Any position with repetitive impacts.
Are we supoosed to assume every player has missed a month of time and still couldn't play in a bowl game because of a concussion?
2. He already has his after football business career planned out and is excited about it.
p.s.--the concussions don't concern me at all.
I wonder if they concern his father, the neurologist/spine surgeon.... That could be a factor down the line. Just sayin.
Link - ( New Window )
Eli's an unfair example to put on anyone. The fact that he's never gotten hurt is some kind of blessing, not a standard that should be expected. It flies in the face of what the sport is that a guy can play 14 years and never get hurt.
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when evaluating players. It is a very real situation that needs to be taken into account when evaluating prospects and not just assuming everyone gets them. Eli should have made us all aware of the phrase, "the best ability is availability." Link - ( New Window )
Eli's an unfair example to put on anyone. The fact that he's never gotten hurt is some kind of blessing, not a standard that should be expected. It flies in the face of what the sport is that a guy can play 14 years and never get hurt.
I don't get your point. You always do this. You love to play devil's advocate and cherry pick a comment. I never said any draft pick should be Eli in terms of health. I said Eli has shown is that health is very important. That is it.
This.
W-L record is just one important piece. It's not the only piece, it isn't everything, it isn't, by itself, a predictor of success or failure, but it IS PART OF THE EVALUATION.
If it was the only concern with Rosen, it wouldn't be something to even think about. But it's not the only concern.
He is not as good as some of you think he is. Some of you are so used to mediocrity you don't know what a GREAT QB prospect looks like anymore. Rosen just isn't "great". He's decent, but not great.
So if you disagree with me, please point to your specific arguments about him, emphasis on SPECIFIC, on why he is great. Give me the goods he has. What are they? Because the only thing he has that is GREAT or at least VERY GOOD is technique. There isn't one other aspect of him or his game that I'm putting at the elite level. Not his arm, not his accuracy, not his mobility...so what is it? He is not bad in any of those areas (except mobility), but he is "passable" in all of them. Likewise, what you are going to get at the NFL level is a "passable" QB. You should want more at #2 overall.
I'd rather Josh Allen, even. At least I can tell you multiple things and attributes at which he is GREAT.
But the conversation of health where Rosen is concerned does not seem to be coming from an informed place. I see people parroting the same words over and over, and I've asked in multiple threads what his actual injury situation is (since I'm on the east coast and haven't watched him play), and nobody seems to have any more information than what's out there. That he missed half a season to shoulder surgery, and missed time due to a concussion.
That's not "injury prone". That's playing football for a living, especially when he's apparently played behind a lackluster O-line. I see nothing about that that tells me that he's any more of a risk than anyone else who puts on a Giants jersey.
Yes, but wouldn’t that also mean potentially more for Rosen?
But the conversation of health where Rosen is concerned does not seem to be coming from an informed place. I see people parroting the same words over and over, and I've asked in multiple threads what his actual injury situation is (since I'm on the east coast and haven't watched him play), and nobody seems to have any more information than what's out there. That he missed half a season to shoulder surgery, and missed time due to a concussion.
That's not "injury prone". That's playing football for a living, especially when he's apparently played behind a lackluster O-line. I see nothing about that that tells me that he's any more of a risk than anyone else who puts on a Giants jersey.
Ok. I never said injury prone. I said his multiple concussions and the length of them are 100% worrisome.
2. Milton's obsession
It's weird. Milton will latch onto a solid draft prospect and for 4-5 months, hammer BBI with threads and posts talking up "his guy". He will trumpet the player's strengths and pooh-pooh what many consider valid concerns.
The word "obsession" is on the mark. It's as if Milton feels that by hammering BBI with "his guy", posters here will come to see things his way and he will tip the scales of the Giants draft board and have that guy get picked.
Last year it was Ramczyk.
The vast majority of the concerns with Rosen have absolutely nothing to do with his college record.
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something people weren't aware of.
But the conversation of health where Rosen is concerned does not seem to be coming from an informed place. I see people parroting the same words over and over, and I've asked in multiple threads what his actual injury situation is (since I'm on the east coast and haven't watched him play), and nobody seems to have any more information than what's out there. That he missed half a season to shoulder surgery, and missed time due to a concussion.
That's not "injury prone". That's playing football for a living, especially when he's apparently played behind a lackluster O-line. I see nothing about that that tells me that he's any more of a risk than anyone else who puts on a Giants jersey.
Ok. I never said injury prone. I said his multiple concussions and the length of them are 100% worrisome.
I know you didn't, but I'm not and haven't been directing all my comments at you. That label comes up in nearly every Rosen thread.
Out of the hundreds of Rosen threads that’s the one area that never really becomes a talking point —-because it shouldn’t.
Op i’d love for you to find some examples.
Ok. I never said injury prone. I said his multiple concussions and the length of them are 100% worrisome.
A little positive news came on BBI last month with regards to Rosen. A poster who is an orthopedic surgeon posted here that if a person has had multiple concussions and can go a year w/o another one, he will no longer be "concussion prone" and will now have the average of having a new concussion.
Whatever team gets Rosen hopefully will have him just learn in 2018.
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1. His concussion
2. Milton's obsession
It's weird. Milton will latch onto a solid draft prospect and for 4-5 months, hammer BBI with threads and posts talking up "his guy". He will trumpet the player's strengths and pooh-pooh what many consider valid concerns.
The word "obsession" is on the mark. It's as if Milton feels that by hammering BBI with "his guy", posters here will come to see things his way and he will tip the scales of the Giants draft board and have that guy get picked.
Last year it was Ramczyk.
Milton is a great poster. I just like busting his balls.
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1. His concussion
2. Milton's obsession
It's weird. Milton will latch onto a solid draft prospect and for 4-5 months, hammer BBI with threads and posts talking up "his guy". He will trumpet the player's strengths and pooh-pooh what many consider valid concerns.
The word "obsession" is on the mark. It's as if Milton feels that by hammering BBI with "his guy", posters here will come to see things his way and he will tip the scales of the Giants draft board and have that guy get picked.
Last year it was Ramczyk.
I thought it was Cam Robinson.
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Ok. I never said injury prone. I said his multiple concussions and the length of them are 100% worrisome.
A little positive news came on BBI last month with regards to Rosen. A poster who is an orthopedic surgeon posted here that if a person has had multiple concussions and can go a year w/o another one, he will no longer be "concussion prone" and will now have the average of having a new concussion.
Whatever team gets Rosen hopefully will have him just learn in 2018.
More and more evidence comes out often today with all the attention paid to CTE. If that is true and we can have him sit for at least a year then that would be ideal.
Last year it was Ramczyk.
My Guy - ( New Window )
I have always enjoyed your posts, Milton. Robbie's too.
The two concussions didn't appear serious, but the fact that they occurred within four weeks of each other meant they didn't want to risk a third concussion within such a short period of time and that's why he was kept out of his bowl game. It wasn't because he was still feeling symptoms.
And this is why the concussions don't concern me. He is going to sit behind Eli for a year or two, so the concussions will be far enough in his rearview mirror to be a non-factor going forward. He is not going to cut his career short because of concussions (as some seem to fear even to the point of being convinced that will happen). This isn't a Chris Borland situation we are talking about with him.
It's the guys who are crashing into each other on just about every play who are taking on the greatest risk in terms of concussions. OL, DL, MLB, FB, who knows how many minor concussions these guys are having per game? It doesn't show up on film, but it adds up.
+1 I don't think is win-loss record is held against as much as his potential physical durability.
Out of the hundreds of Rosen threads that’s the one area that never really becomes a talking point —-because it shouldn’t.
Op i’d love for you to find some examples.
Dear Blitz
First of all thanks for responding in a respectful manner , so many on bbi just attempt to trash other people , and u didn't do that , so that's refreshing.
I don't have an exact quote , but more than a few times people on this board quote Parcells , and say all that mattered to him was a qb's win loss record in college.
And there is this misnomer going around , that Parcells philosophy is all that matters , and I was showing how bogus that philosophy is when evaluating a college qb.
Matt Leinart proves my point. I could only imagine what I would find out if I did other win loss records on other big name college qb's coming out.
Aside from pure numbers mumbo jumbo, I think there is a valid question around why UCLA didn't win more as the team was talented and Rosen should have brought that team to another level. He didn't.
Aside from pure numbers mumbo jumbo, I think there is a valid question around why UCLA didn't win more as the team was talented and Rosen should have brought that team to another level. He didn't.
I just researched Jamarcus Russell , former #1 pick of the Raiders.
At LSU his win/loss record was 21-4 , way better than Rosen's , and was a total complete bust in the NFL.
Josh Rosen has only won 17 games in 3 years as a starter at UCLA. A big reason is because in his second year he missed a whole slew of games because of injury.
I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...
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I'm not sure I understand it. I think a QB being able to win is a meaningful part of the process, just like evaluating tape or evaluating other statistics. There isn't likely a strong correlation between a QB winning a lot of games and being a successful QB, but there seems to be a relatively strong correlation of QBs who have winning percentages below 60% and them NOT being successful QBs in the NFL.
Aside from pure numbers mumbo jumbo, I think there is a valid question around why UCLA didn't win more as the team was talented and Rosen should have brought that team to another level. He didn't.
I just researched Jamarcus Russell , former #1 pick of the Raiders.
At LSU his win/loss record was 21-4 , way better than Rosen's , and was a total complete bust in the NFL.
Josh Rosen has only won 17 games in 3 years as a starter at UCLA. A big reason is because in his second year he missed a whole slew of games because of injury.
I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...
Jay Cutler had a losing record at Vandy with a very weak supporting cast. From a physical and talent standpoint they are similar players. Now Cutler's biggest flaw is his attitude and work ethic. I wasn't implying that I believe Rosen will be the next Cutler I was just posting a counter argument.
He will get eaten up alive.
He will get eaten up alive.
Yeah, cause that’s really the big concern. Your agenda reeks here.
I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...
Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.
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I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...
Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.
These are Parcells guidelines for drafting a qb
#1 He must be a senior
#2 He must be a graduate
#3 He must be a 3 year starter
#4 He must have at least 23 wins
Under normal circumstances these are nice guidelines , but Matt leinart 37 wins 2 losses , Jamarcus Russel 21 wins 4 losses , kind of shows its not a perfect formula.
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In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:
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I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...
Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.
These are Parcells guidelines for drafting a qb
#1 He must be a senior
#2 He must be a graduate
#3 He must be a 3 year starter
#4 He must have at least 23 wins
Under normal circumstances these are nice guidelines , but Matt leinart 37 wins 2 losses , Jamarcus Russel 21 wins 4 losses , kind of shows its not a perfect formula.
Parcells wouldn't have drafted Russell under his guidelines as Russell was Junior when he declared so he obviously didn't graduate.
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In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:
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I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...
Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.
These are Parcells guidelines for drafting a qb
#1 He must be a senior
#2 He must be a graduate
#3 He must be a 3 year starter
#4 He must have at least 23 wins
Under normal circumstances these are nice guidelines , but Matt leinart 37 wins 2 losses , Jamarcus Russel 21 wins 4 losses , kind of shows its not a perfect formula.
Tom Brady was a 2 year starter. There are plenty of successful QBs that don't check all the boxes.
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In comment 13830486 mrvax said:
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In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:
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I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...
Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.
These are Parcells guidelines for drafting a qb
#1 He must be a senior
#2 He must be a graduate
#3 He must be a 3 year starter
#4 He must have at least 23 wins
Under normal circumstances these are nice guidelines , but Matt leinart 37 wins 2 losses , Jamarcus Russel 21 wins 4 losses , kind of shows its not a perfect formula.
Tom Brady was a 2 year starter. There are plenty of successful QBs that don't check all the boxes.
Exactly .....Rosen and Darnold aren't seniors , or graduates , but there chances of being successful NFL QB's is very good
p.s.--No pun intended but Baker Mayfield is starting to grow on me.
Out of the hundreds of Rosen threads that’s the one area that never really becomes a talking point —-because it shouldn’t.
Op i’d love for you to find some examples.
I’ve brought up his W-L as a concern of mine... but have never ever “trashed” Rosen... he and Baker are tied for my second fav QB in this class behind Darnold... did not say he won’t be a good QB based on his record but have only said it is a concern and have asked if anyone can remember a good NFL QB with a poor college record and it seems there hasn’t been one since Elway.....
Allen only comes of short in two of those fields he is a year older than the other two and broken collarbone injury history. The arm strength is something you can’t help but salivating upon images on an NFL field.
Darnold has not shown the deep ball as much in his game to this point but he checks all the other boxes solidly. He is second to Allen in physical and upside but he could be the safer pick of all three.
Rosen gets the big name and field time experience but comes up short in arm strength, physical size and injury concerns. He is a very good QB but compared to Allen and Darnold he comes up way short in several major areas.
If the Browns and Giants draft a QB they will both be looking at the weather conditions they play in you have to consider that as a primary requirement for your QB.
So if you disagree with me, please point to your specific arguments about him, emphasis on SPECIFIC, on why he is great. Give me the goods he has. What are they? Because the only thing he has that is GREAT or at least VERY GOOD is technique. There isn't one other aspect of him or his game that I'm putting at the elite level. Not his arm, not his accuracy, not his mobility...so what is it? He is not bad in any of those areas (except mobility), but he is "passable" in all of them. Likewise, what you are going to get at the NFL level is a "passable" QB. You should want more at #2 overall.
I'd rather Josh Allen, even. At least I can tell you multiple things and attributes at which he is GREAT.
If you think Allen is a better player than Rosen, then there is no point in posting anything.
We should do the reverse. Give us specifics on Allen. Ok he has a great arm - can't hit the broad side of a barn, but strong arm.
I'm not a scout, but if you cannot see that Rosen has a very strong, extremely accurate arm then you are fooling yourself. His mechanics are head and shoulders above all QBs in the draft. He quickly goes through his progressions.
Does he have faults? Yes. but they are injury concerns and his slight build, although I'd argue that Lamar Jackson is every bit as slightly built.
Seriously. The league is teetering on a future collapse because of a spotlight on head trauma, and a guy coming into the league with two concussions is a huge risk. Most medical professionals would advise against ever playing a contact sport with multiple concussions, and they usually make that line in the sand on 3 severe concussions.
If you actually type "the concussions don't worry me", then that's being tone-deaf and really obtuse if not outright moronic.
It means the potential #2 pick is literally one bad hit away from having his career end.
Seriously. The league is teetering on a future collapse because of a spotlight on head trauma, and a guy coming into the league with two concussions is a huge risk. Most medical professionals would advise against ever playing a contact sport with multiple concussions, and they usually make that line in the sand on 3 severe concussions.
If you actually type "the concussions don't worry me", then that's being tone-deaf and really obtuse if not outright moronic.
It means the potential #2 pick is literally one bad hit away from having his career end.
EXACTLY!!!!!!
Not to mention his typical millennial attitude. Gettleman says he wants players that hate to lose. Rosen, according to reports, already has his post football career planned out. He doesn't love the game and that is clear and on top of that he has concussions.
The Giants don't want to be in QB hell and drafting Rosen will put them in that.
But I would be placing far more risk on the Other QBs shortfalls at QB vs. Rosen than I would Rosen's concussion history vs the Others...
Seriously. The league is teetering on a future collapse because of a spotlight on head trauma, and a guy coming into the league with two concussions is a huge risk. Most medical professionals would advise against ever playing a contact sport with multiple concussions, and they usually make that line in the sand on 3 severe concussions.
If you actually type "the concussions don't worry me", then that's being tone-deaf and really obtuse if not outright moronic.
It means the potential #2 pick is literally one bad hit away from having his career end.
Though to be fair, anyone in football is one bad hit away from having his career end. We've seen that multiple times as Giants fans. Cruz and Nicks had their careers demolished by one hit.
With full respect to the concussion issue, and I'm acutely aware of how serious it is and I care very much about the long-term effects, they're not going to stop playing football in the next 5 years, so business is going to continue whether we pick now to make the stand on it or not.
Newsflash, people will disagree and hang on tighter when posts like this appear because it reminds them of their own arguing points. Stick to your guns, but please wake up and realize you are changing zero minds. Ever.
Again - this isn't a run of the mill draft slot - it is the #2 slot. One that has to be hit, and do so for the next several years.
He is a heck of a QB tho, and if it weren't for some of these injuries, he would be the clear cut #1 QB/player in this draft. Me personally, I'd take the risk, but clearly I don't know all the in's and out's of his medical history, and neither does anyone else on this board.
The vast majority of the concerns with Rosen have absolutely nothing to do with his college record.
That's often all the OP does here.
That's an AWFULLY low bar to set for someone you want to use the 2md pick in the draft to select.
And concern about an injury history is not "trashing" the guy in my book.
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So if you disagree with me, please point to your specific arguments about him, emphasis on SPECIFIC, on why he is great. Give me the goods he has. What are they? Because the only thing he has that is GREAT or at least VERY GOOD is technique. There isn't one other aspect of him or his game that I'm putting at the elite level. Not his arm, not his accuracy, not his mobility...so what is it? He is not bad in any of those areas (except mobility), but he is "passable" in all of them. Likewise, what you are going to get at the NFL level is a "passable" QB. You should want more at #2 overall.
I'd rather Josh Allen, even. At least I can tell you multiple things and attributes at which he is GREAT.
If you think Allen is a better player than Rosen, then there is no point in posting anything.
We should do the reverse. Give us specifics on Allen. Ok he has a great arm - can't hit the broad side of a barn, but strong arm.
I'm not a scout, but if you cannot see that Rosen has a very strong, extremely accurate arm then you are fooling yourself. His mechanics are head and shoulders above all QBs in the draft. He quickly goes through his progressions.
Does he have faults? Yes. but they are injury concerns and his slight build, although I'd argue that Lamar Jackson is every bit as slightly built.
He doesn't have a "very strong" arm. His arm strength is about "good enough". He is also not "extremely accurate". His accuracy is about "good enough". I did not say Allen was better than Rosen, but he has attributes that are great, unlike Rosen. In other words, if you look at Allen's arm strength, it is GREAT. Not just good, not passable, but elite. Allen's mobility is great. That's the point. Rosen has great mechanics. But I need more at the #2 pick and I need more from a franchise QB in the modern NFL. That's the whole point.
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In comment 13830346 allstarjim said:
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So if you disagree with me, please point to your specific arguments about him, emphasis on SPECIFIC, on why he is great. Give me the goods he has. What are they? Because the only thing he has that is GREAT or at least VERY GOOD is technique. There isn't one other aspect of him or his game that I'm putting at the elite level. Not his arm, not his accuracy, not his mobility...so what is it? He is not bad in any of those areas (except mobility), but he is "passable" in all of them. Likewise, what you are going to get at the NFL level is a "passable" QB. You should want more at #2 overall.
I'd rather Josh Allen, even. At least I can tell you multiple things and attributes at which he is GREAT.
If you think Allen is a better player than Rosen, then there is no point in posting anything.
We should do the reverse. Give us specifics on Allen. Ok he has a great arm - can't hit the broad side of a barn, but strong arm.
I'm not a scout, but if you cannot see that Rosen has a very strong, extremely accurate arm then you are fooling yourself. His mechanics are head and shoulders above all QBs in the draft. He quickly goes through his progressions.
Does he have faults? Yes. but they are injury concerns and his slight build, although I'd argue that Lamar Jackson is every bit as slightly built.
He doesn't have a "very strong" arm. His arm strength is about "good enough". He is also not "extremely accurate". His accuracy is about "good enough". I did not say Allen was better than Rosen, but he has attributes that are great, unlike Rosen. In other words, if you look at Allen's arm strength, it is GREAT. Not just good, not passable, but elite. Allen's mobility is great. That's the point. Rosen has great mechanics. But I need more at the #2 pick and I need more from a franchise QB in the modern NFL. That's the whole point.
I would disagree with some of this, however, before i do I would address the whole "trashing" thing. In my opinion i think it's how definitely people on the board make statements (goes in both directions) that leads to the perception of trashing or in some cases over praising these prospects. We really don't know the medicals on these guys. I am an orthopaedic surgeon and even have some connections (i knew Johnathon Allen was gonna slide last year because i saw his shoulder x-ray) and yet i wouldn't pretend to know what is going on with Rosen's medicals. I will say that i have concerns, but i no way would i say anything "disqualifies" him as people lie to say.
In regards to his talent i do feel he has elite attributes. You mention technique and footwork as if it is not an attribute. I personally disagree there. Many QBs flame out due to poor mechanics. Shurmur himself has stated that the key to good QB play is the footwork. I think you are selling Rosen short to feel his footwork, mechanics, etc isn't as important as Allen's arm strength. His ability to place the ball his also elite. Being able to put the ball in spots only his receiver an get it. His intelligence is elite as well. From what i have read, his completion percentage numbers were by far the most affected by drops when compared to the other QB prospects. I mention this because i do believe that while he has been inconsistent at times, he can be special when it comes to accuracy.
Finally, I think that looking for elite traits especially physical ones isn't the best way to judge a QB at all. What were Eli's elite traits coming out?..no his accuracy, or arm strength, or foot speed.
This isn't all to say we should draft Rosen. I happen to also like Darnold and Barkley. I am interested to see what our scouts say about it.
I'm not sure I follow here. They're treated the same, medically, regardless of position. If a doc sees symptoms, they're going to get sit down for further exam or just taken out. At least that's how it's supposed to work. Whether it's RB, LB or QB.
Every offensive play, the QB touches the ball.
You don't follow that?
As for my feelings on concussions in general, if I could make one rule change in the NFL (other than having all penalties be half the distance to the goal), I would outlaw the three-point stance. There is nothing worse for the brain on the field of play than OL and DL firing into each other 50 or 60 times per game. Justin Pugh is the guy I fear will give up the game due to concussions. And I would say good for him.
It's just the nature of the sport. Trying to chase health in a brutal sport is going to leave you in circles. The best players get hurt by the truckload every year.
ROSEN DON'T SURF!!
He will get eaten up alive.