As we've already exposed Parcells evaluation of a college QB's win/loss record , as a faulty measuring line.
I will now address the fascination on BBI with not drafting Josh Rosen because of his concussion history , as also being faulty.
In 2015 there were 199 concussions in the NFL.
Out of 199 players suffering a concussion , the cornerback position had the highest amount of players reporting a concussion with 41.
Why?
Because players making a tackle suffer the highest amount of concussions in the NFL , with 41%.
On the other hand , the Quarterback position had only 12 players reporting a concussion.
Some of the QBs who suffered a concussion were , Roethlisberger , Bradford , Bridgewater , and Case Keenan.
Teddy Bridgewater suffered a concussion in 2015 , he was cleared to play the next week.
Roethlisberger has had 3 concussions in his career. One in 2006 , 2009 , and 2015. Out of all 3 concussions , he has missed only 1 game.
Sam Bradford , who is injury prone , suffered a concussion in 2015 , he missed 2 games.
Case Keenum suffered a concussion in 2015 , he remained in the game.
As the facts show , all 4 of these QB's suffered a concussion , and none of them missed significant playing time , if any.
To those also trashing Josh Rosen.
Alex Smith in 2012 , while playing for the 49ers , ran a QB sneak , and suffered a concussion. He missed 1 game.
The facts show , it can happen at anytime , even during a QB sneak.
You should be more concerened with CB , WR , TE , S , OT , LB , and RB positions , which report a greater number of players suffering a concussion , than the QB position.
So please stop using Rosen's concussion injury as a reason not to draft him , it's a faulty measuring line that collapses on itself.
And how many are shitting on the kid because of it? We have the second pick in the draft. The one thing we cannot afford is to miss on this pick. So, yes, it is a concern. It doesn't mean the kid sucks. I like him a lot.
There was an important link that a poster posted yesterday which stated if a player doesn't show symptoms in a year then it is kind of like starting from scratch again. That is good news if true especially with sitting behind Eli for a year or two.
But look it up. When you get a concussion you are more susceptible to another. Just because that small sample size didn't have multiple concussions doesn't mean Rosen is free from that concern.
Ben only missed one game? Good for Ben, Rosen has missed many more.
Other positions are more likely to get a concussion? Ok, but that's deflection and a meaningless point. What does that gave to do with Rosen? He still got those concussions. How does it change Rosen's injury history.
I hope he stays healthy and has a long career, but the concerns with his health are justified.
Ben only missed one game? Good for Ben, Rosen has missed many more.
Other positions are more likely to get a concussion? Ok, but that's deflection and a meaningless point. What does that gave to do with Rosen? He still got those concussions. How does it change Rosen's injury history.
I hope he stays healthy and has a long career, but the concerns with his health are justified.
Rosen missed significant playing time because of a shoulder injury , not because of a concussion. It's important that we understand this distinction.
2. Extended time missed from concussion is a red flag. I've heard it argued that delays returning from concussion could as easily be from an abundance of caution as from the severity of the concussion.
3. Given family background, it's possible that one or two more serious concussions might not just be the end of his season, but perhaps the end of his career.
#3 is especially true if the reason for delayed return is abundance of caution. I don't blame the player for wanting to be cautious re: injury and especially concussion, but what does that suggest will happen in the future if a serious concussion is had?
I'm not saying he's off my proverbial board, just saying it's a concern of mine with him.
All the data about LB, CB, etc. and concussion frequency rates doesn't change my mind one bit. I'm still a little hesitant about him because of the history.
Put it another way, if he had never had a concussion (or the shoulder surgery) I'm pretty sure he'd have a higher grade by everyone. Right?
I'll be constantly refreshing the Corner Forum awaiting Part 4.
And how many are shitting on the kid because of it? We have the second pick in the draft. The one thing we cannot afford is to miss on this pick. So, yes, it is a concern. It doesn't mean the kid sucks. I like him a lot.
There was an important link that a poster posted yesterday which stated if a player doesn't show symptoms in a year then it is kind of like starting from scratch again. That is good news if true especially with sitting behind Eli for a year or two.
But look it up. When you get a concussion you are more susceptible to another. Just because that small sample size didn't have multiple concussions doesn't mean Rosen is free from that concern.
Robbie , your flat out wrong.
Here’s Rosen’s injury history in a nutshell. He was lost halfway through 2016 with shoulder injury. He then proceeded to throw for almost 4,000 yards in 12 games in 2017. The shoulder is good to go.
He didn't play in the meaningless bowl game , cuz why should he risk getting hurt , when he is guaranteed a 20 million dollar contract with the film he has already put out. Its a smart business decision on his part.
Lol
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I'll be constantly refreshing the Corner Forum awaiting Part 4.
Would that be his masterbation habits? Or is that part 5
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If you do research you will know that every concussion is different. Every person is different. That means it needs to be treated as an individual case. He suffered 2 concussions in a short period of time. How many of your examples relate to that? Seriously, research it. He had one, had another, and was held out of his bowl game. To dismiss it because none of your examples are relatable is ridiculous.
And how many are shitting on the kid because of it? We have the second pick in the draft. The one thing we cannot afford is to miss on this pick. So, yes, it is a concern. It doesn't mean the kid sucks. I like him a lot.
There was an important link that a poster posted yesterday which stated if a player doesn't show symptoms in a year then it is kind of like starting from scratch again. That is good news if true especially with sitting behind Eli for a year or two.
But look it up. When you get a concussion you are more susceptible to another. Just because that small sample size didn't have multiple concussions doesn't mean Rosen is free from that concern.
Robbie , your flat out wrong.
Here’s Rosen’s injury history in a nutshell. He was lost halfway through 2016 with shoulder injury. He then proceeded to throw for almost 4,000 yards in 12 games in 2017. The shoulder is good to go.
He didn't play in the meaningless bowl game , cuz why should he risk getting hurt , when he is guaranteed a 20 million dollar contract with the film he has already put out. Its a smart business decision on his part.
I'm so confused. Why do I care about his shoulder injury. I care about the concussions. Research concussions. How am I wrong?
Robbie , your flat out wrong.
Here’s Rosen’s injury history in a nutshell. He was lost halfway through 2016 with shoulder injury. He then proceeded to throw for almost 4,000 yards in 12 games in 2017. The shoulder is good to go.
He didn't play in the meaningless bowl game , cuz why should he risk getting hurt , when he is guaranteed a 20 million dollar contract with the film he has already put out. Its a smart business decision on his part.
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That's the argument about caution. I'd accept it better but what does it suggest? He was saying that if he cleared the concussion protocol he would play. Now, he may have been advised against that, but even some 32 days after the concussion in the season finale he had not passed the concussion protocol and was banned from practicing. Those are the facts as they were reported.
Was it a serious concussion? Who knows for sure, but if it wasn't and they were just being precautious, what does that suggest?
Bad knees, shoulder and concussions.
He is 20-21. He is a walking Bullseye.
If all these injuries already, how long do you think he will last in NFL?
NO
2. Extended time missed from concussion is a red flag. I've heard it argued that delays returning from concussion could as easily be from an abundance of caution as from the severity of the concussion.
3. Given family background, it's possible that one or two more serious concussions might not just be the end of his season, but perhaps the end of his career.
#3 is especially true if the reason for delayed return is abundance of caution. I don't blame the player for wanting to be cautious re: injury and especially concussion, but what does that suggest will happen in the future if a serious concussion is had?
I'm not saying he's off my proverbial board, just saying it's a concern of mine with him.
All the data about LB, CB, etc. and concussion frequency rates doesn't change my mind one bit. I'm still a little hesitant about him because of the history.
Put it another way, if he had never had a concussion (or the shoulder surgery) I'm pretty sure he'd have a higher grade by everyone. Right?
Your also flat out incorrect , here are the facts...
He was knocked out of the UCLA Football versus Washington game with a concussion and missed the following game at Utah because of it.
In this day and age if you’re questioning a player’s toughness because of a concussion I have serious concerns about your mental health.
Finally Rosen was held out of the second half of the game against Cal because he sustained a very similar hit to the one that concussed him against Washington.
It Wasn’t his call to make and it was clear the coaching staff wanted to protect him. You can actually see how irate he is on the sideline. None of that should result in questions about his toughness.
Bad knees, shoulder and concussions.
He is 20-21. He is a walking Bullseye.
If all these injuries already, how long do you think he will last in NFL?
NO
But he'll beat the Commies in Rosen IV
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In comment 13831532 njm said:
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I'll be constantly refreshing the Corner Forum awaiting Part 4.
Would that be his masterbation habits? Or is that part 5
I have no interest in reading about his grip strength and his training to improve it. But Part 4 should address the "anti-Rosenites" classification.
He didn't play in the meaningless bowl game , cuz why should he risk getting hurt , when he is guaranteed a 20 million dollar contract with the film he has already put out. Its a smart business decision on his part.
I do think there may be something to Jim Mora Jr being overly cautious with him. They are neighbors and their families are friendly so Mora may have felt added pressure to look out for his health.
Your also flat out incorrect , here are the facts...
He was knocked out of the UCLA Football versus Washington game with a concussion and missed the following game at Utah because of it.
In this day and age if you’re questioning a player’s toughness because of a concussion I have serious concerns about your mental health.
Finally Rosen was held out of the second half of the game against Cal because he sustained a very similar hit to the one that concussed him against Washington.
It Wasn’t his call to make and it was clear the coaching staff wanted to protect him. You can actually see how irate he is on the sideline. None of that should result in questions about his toughness.
Who's questioning his toughness? I never did.
You're saying that we shouldn't be worried about his concussions and using statistics related to position history in the NFL. I'm concerned about his concussion history because he suffered a second one serious enough that even though he repeatedly stated he wanted to get back in the game and wanted to play in the bowl game, he couldn't clear the protocol even though it was over a month later.
That's a pretty serious concussion. If you're still suffering effects of a concussion over a month after you suffer it you've had a serious concussion.
I'm not arguing that he isn't tough.
Ben only missed one game? Good for Ben, Rosen has missed many more.
Other positions are more likely to get a concussion? Ok, but that's deflection and a meaningless point. What does that gave to do with Rosen? He still got those concussions. How does it change Rosen's injury history.
I hope he stays healthy and has a long career, but the concerns with his health are justified.
Here are the facts , On October 28, in a 44–23 loss against Washington, Rosen was forced out of the game in the third quarter due to a concussion, which he had tried hiding from coaches after being injured on a sack in the game's opening drive.
After missing one game, Rosen returned to the lineup and threw for 381 yards with one touchdown and also scored on a 1-yard run in a 44–37 win over the Sun Devils.
He missed 1 game from a concussion , that's it
I do think there may be something to Jim Mora Jr being overly cautious with him. They are neighbors and their families are friendly so Mora may have felt added pressure to look out for his health.
He couldn't pass the protocol. You think they lied about that? You think the doctors didn't evaluate him properly?
There was something that was still wrong or he would have passed the protocol, imo.
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You have completetly ignored the fact that Rosen has missed significant time.
Ben only missed one game? Good for Ben, Rosen has missed many more.
Other positions are more likely to get a concussion? Ok, but that's deflection and a meaningless point. What does that gave to do with Rosen? He still got those concussions. How does it change Rosen's injury history.
I hope he stays healthy and has a long career, but the concerns with his health are justified.
Rosen missed significant playing time because of a shoulder injury , not because of a concussion. It's important that we understand this distinction.
I think you unwittingly may have proven the opposite of what you set out to prove. If QB concussions are statistically rare, and most don't miss much time when they do get one, then a QB who has suffered multiple concussions in a short period of time and then missed his bowl game several weeks later as a result of those concussions absolutely IS a concern.
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If you do research you will know that every concussion is different. Every person is different. That means it needs to be treated as an individual case. He suffered 2 concussions in a short period of time. How many of your examples relate to that? Seriously, research it. He had one, had another, and was held out of his bowl game. To dismiss it because none of your examples are relatable is ridiculous.
And how many are shitting on the kid because of it? We have the second pick in the draft. The one thing we cannot afford is to miss on this pick. So, yes, it is a concern. It doesn't mean the kid sucks. I like him a lot.
There was an important link that a poster posted yesterday which stated if a player doesn't show symptoms in a year then it is kind of like starting from scratch again. That is good news if true especially with sitting behind Eli for a year or two.
But look it up. When you get a concussion you are more susceptible to another. Just because that small sample size didn't have multiple concussions doesn't mean Rosen is free from that concern.
Robbie , your flat out wrong.
Here’s Rosen’s injury history in a nutshell. He was lost halfway through 2016 with shoulder injury. He then proceeded to throw for almost 4,000 yards in 12 games in 2017. The shoulder is good to go.
He didn't play in the meaningless bowl game , cuz why should he risk getting hurt , when he is guaranteed a 20 million dollar contract with the film he has already put out. Its a smart business decision on his part.
He dressed and wanted to play. This wasn't like other players who plan to sit out their bowl game. The UCLA doctors held him out because of the concussion.
At this point, this is a pretty significant risk in taking a player who you absolutely have to depend to be on the field.
He may be fine but there is a much greater risk with this guy than with others. To say otherwise is just blind love for a player.
He couldn't pass the protocol. You think they lied about that? You think the doctors didn't evaluate him properly?
There was something that was still wrong or he would have passed the protocol, imo.
Maybe you should re-title your thread "A fanboi's take on Josh Rosen?"
As others have stated, the 2nd overall pick needs to be as close to “can’t miss / super clean” (injury history, arrest history, intangibles) as possible.
Rosen does not meet the above criteria in the opinion of many posters (including mine).
I really, really hope the Browns take Rosen. I want the Giants to have the choice of Darnold or Barkley or the proverbial “King’s Random trade down” offer.
There was no protocol to pass because the decision wasn't based on whether or not he was experiencing symptoms, it was based on the timing of the two concussions he had experienced earlier in the season. And not even on the severity of the two concussions (which didn't appear to be severe, but I'm no doctor and I only base it on his appearance on the sidelines following them, so it's possible I'm wrong about their respective severity).
Where did you get that from? Here's one (of many) articles that claims Rosen himself said he hadn't yet passed the protocol. This was December 24th.
Look Milton, I know you're a big fan of the guy. I like him too. It's just ignorance though to pretend that the concussion history he's had isn't a red flag of some sort. I ask you to honestly consider this question: Would he have a higher grade by (almost) everyone if he had zero concussions?
The real facts are that he missed two games from the concussions, regardless of what sxdxca claims are the facts. He wasn't cleared to play in the bowl game by the doctors. If you have evidence that the doctors cleared him and he chose not to please share it.
Having come from the generation that laughed about getting your "bell rung", it is pretty scary stuff when you see high school athletes that are incapacitated for weeks and, in some cases, months later. Wondering about the damage that my generation did to itself through ignorance.
He may be fine but there is a much greater risk with this guy than with others.
Doctors don't even agree on this take.
Anyone dealing in absolutes on this is to be doubted. The entire issue of concussions is still a matter that needs a lot more research.
Really? How about this absolute?
I absolutely wouldn't be worrying about his chances for a concussion if he hadn't had two recent ones.
I know that there are no absolutes with concussions - there's only risk and perceived risk. I can't find anyone though who disagrees with the idea that he would be a safer prospect without the two concussions.
Do you disagree with that idea?
Notice how we don't talk about concussions risk with players who've never been concussed. I'm saying that if he were in that group, we wouldn't be talking about concussions with him either. We'd all prefer he didn't have a concussion history, but that doesn't mean we're all absolutely certain it's a problem.
The main thing I wanted to find out was what constitutes being in the protocol. Was Rosen in the "protocol" one month later because he was still experiencing symptoms or because of the fact that he was coming off two concussions within a four week window of each other prior to the bowl game.
The junior quarterback has been in concussion protocol since getting injured late in the season. Rosen sustained a concussion against Washington on Oct. 28 and then sat out the following game. He was also banged up and sat out the second half of the Bruins' regular-season finale against Cal on Nov. 24.
Normally guys who are in concussion protocol aren't practicing with the team (I could be wrong about that) and Rosen was practicing with the team in the lead up to the bowl game.
As for the severity of the two concussions, Peter is right in that I'm really in no position to comment on them based solely on appearances. I guess we'll know more following the medical checkup at the combine.
The main thing I wanted to find out was what constitutes being in the protocol. Was Rosen in the "protocol" one month later because he was still experiencing symptoms or because of the fact that he was coming off two concussions within a four week window of each other prior to the bowl game.
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According to a UCLA source, Rosen wanted to play but the medical staff doesn’t want him to play in this game because they didn’t want him to risk having another concussion so close to the last one.
The junior quarterback has been in concussion protocol since getting injured late in the season. Rosen sustained a concussion against Washington on Oct. 28 and then sat out the following game. He was also banged up and sat out the second half of the Bruins' regular-season finale against Cal on Nov. 24.
Normally guys who are in concussion protocol aren't practicing with the team (I could be wrong about that) and Rosen was practicing with the team in the lead up to the bowl game.
As for the severity of the two concussions, Peter is right in that I'm really in no position to comment on them based solely on appearances. I guess we'll know more following the medical checkup at the combine.
I'm not an expert on the protocol, but it would seem silly to think that being in the protocol doesn't include examinations looking for indicators that a full recovery has occurred. It's not just because of the previous schedule, or they would have been able to announce that he would not be able to play immediately following the second concussion. It was undetermined because they were looking to see how he responded to treatment to determine if he was ready to play football again. In the end, they decided he was not fully recovered, whatever that means.
It's tiresome arguing the minutiae. What's worse is because it seems silly to be arguing it. Can't we all agree that he would be better off having never been concussed? Wouldn't that make us all feel a lot better? If so, what's wrong with stating that?
He's a great prospect, but maybe not entirely clean. If not, the biggest concerns are rightfully related to his health.
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Anyone dealing in absolutes on this is to be doubted. The entire issue of concussions is still a matter that needs a lot more research.
Really? How about this absolute?
I absolutely wouldn't be worrying about his chances for a concussion if he hadn't had two recent ones.
There were 244 diagnosed concussions in the NFL in 2016. Everyone's at risk.
Who knows how many more flew under the radar as un-diagnosed, and we have to allow for the possibility that players don't report symptoms, that teams know and don't report players being diagnosed, and that the league, which has a significant interest and is highly defensive about the topic, isn't trying to play defense against those numbers.
Do you disagree with that idea?
Would he be a safer prospect? I don't know if it's fact or not that previous concussions increase vulnerability to them. I've heard it said, and I've heard it downplayed as well. There's no medical consensus on that that I'm aware of yet. He would be considered 'safe' because it's one less thing for a fan to think about.
It seems highly unlikely that football in it's current form is in any way given to minimizing concussion risk. It's not a helmet issue. It's not even a "big hit" issue according to some doctors. Repetitive impacts that don't look serious contribute just as much to the problem, some say. And if that's true, then the whole sport needs to be upended because it doesn't matter one bit if you never had one before.
I feel strongly about player safety out of appreciation for their talent, and I'm 100% in favor of anything that makes careers longer.
But if we're saying that concussions are serious enough that you need to pass on a quarterback, arguably the most important position in team sports, and the hardest to fill, because he's got concussions on his medical record, then don't you also have to start talking about not investing significant resources in any players with concussion histories? If so, that's sure going to conflict with teams that only care about winning and aren't going to mind the risk just to be able to put the most talented team possible on the field.
Anyway, my point is not that you shouldn't care if Rosen has had a couple of concussions. You should. But if that's the moment we start to care about it, then we need to realize that this affects all players all the time and concussions don't care about medical history. The only defense against it is to stop full contact in the sport. The argument that Rosen might be one hit away is true for anyone. Darnold, Allen, or Rosen, Barkley, or Chubb, if you prefer.
Those are just numbers...
History of Concussion
Multiple prospective studies have identified a history of prior concussion as a risk factor for subsequent concussion.21-23,45 In high school athletes, a greater-than-twofold increase in concussion rate was seen with history of concussion, even when adjusting for sport contact level, grade, and body mass index.45 This association was strongest for football.45 Nonprofessional rugby has similar findings.23 A dose-response relationship was seen in collegiate football, including a 3-times-higher risk of repeat concussion with a history of 3 or more concussions.21
And, it’s not even totally about his potential for not being able to play. Its also about a father who, if he is both a good father and a competent neurologist, would not risk his son/patient’s life on a 4th concusssion.
This is totally unrelated, but there was a girl on my daughter’s soccer team who got a concussion. What she hid was the she had three in HS. A year later she dropped out of school because the headaches and dizziness had not gone away. Yeah everyone is different. But IIRC, she was on the verge of being booted from the team anyway because there’s apparently an NCAA rule that puts a cap on lifetime concusssion. I want to say 4 or 5.
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Risk of Concussion
History of Concussion
Multiple prospective studies have identified a history of prior concussion as a risk factor for subsequent concussion.21-23,45 In high school athletes, a greater-than-twofold increase in concussion rate was seen with history of concussion, even when adjusting for sport contact level, grade, and body mass index.45 This association was strongest for football.45 Nonprofessional rugby has similar findings.23 A dose-response relationship was seen in collegiate football, including a 3-times-higher risk of repeat concussion with a history of 3 or more concussions.21
I said there's no consensus that I've seen. I'm not going to pretend I've spent my free time reading medical studies on this. I don't believe there's one definitive determination that's accepted by medicine yet.
Anyone that I ever knew hat got a concussion from sports went on to have multiple. I don’t know how anyone without an agenda can possibly believe having 1 is the same as having 0.
And, it’s not even totally about his potential for not being able to play. Its also about a father who, if he is both a good father and a competent neurologist, would not risk his son/patient’s life on a 4th concusssion.
This is totally unrelated, but there was a girl on my daughter’s soccer team who got a concussion. What she hid was the she had three in HS. A year later she dropped out of school because the headaches and dizziness had not gone away. Yeah everyone is different. But IIRC, she was on the verge of being booted from the team anyway because there’s apparently an NCAA rule that puts a cap on lifetime concusssion. I want to say 4 or 5.
That's news to me. My daughter played college lacrosse and I'm not aware of any lifetime concussion cap.