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Tony Romo Hall of Fame? No, but heís much better than Eli..

trueblueinpw : 3/3/2018 11:02 pm
I think itís absurd to even consider Tony Romo for the HOF. But before the writer of this article essentially agrees, he takes more than a few shots at Eli and concludes:

Quote:
Eli Manning is clearly not of the same quality as the other players on this list. I have never seriously considered him a legitimate HOF candidate. Heíll probably elicit serious consideration simply because of two Super Bowl wins (and MVPs) and... well, New York. But by any objective measure heís not the same caliber quarterback as the other names on this list, including Tony Romo.


I know itís a Cowpukes blog but how does anyone say theyíre ďokayĒ with Kurt Warner being in the HOF but Eli does not belong? And how does anyone consider Romo to have been a better QB than Eli? I hate to give this guy the clicks.


Making, and breaking, the case for Tony Romo and the Hall of Fame - Blogging The Boys - ( New Window )
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....  
BrettNYG10 : 3/6/2018 3:31 pm : link
I think Ben's a better QB (marginally), but Eli was a greater driver in his teams championships.

I think both should get in.
HOF voters won't really give a shit about supporting cast.  
BrettNYG10 : 3/6/2018 3:32 pm : link
.
How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 3:32 pm : link
Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
....  
BrettNYG10 : 3/6/2018 3:41 pm : link
I think the rings are the big differentiator between Rivers and Eli.

Eli wouldn't be a HOF'er if not for the rings.
RE: How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 3:41 pm : link
In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm


Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
RE: ....  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 3:42 pm : link
In comment 13852439 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think Ben's a better QB (marginally), but Eli was a greater driver in his teams championships.

I think both should get in.


I'm not so sure Eli is more prolific on the big stage than BR. Roeth had a pretty clutch throw to Santonio Holmes to to beat AZ in the SB...for example.
RE: RE: How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 3:47 pm : link
In comment 13852456 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm



Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?


Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?
RE: RE: RE: How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 3:47 pm : link
In comment 13852463 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 13852456 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm



Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?



Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?


The 12 because those are the games that matter most.
RE: RE: ....  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 3:48 pm : link
In comment 13852458 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13852439 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I think Ben's a better QB (marginally), but Eli was a greater driver in his teams championships.

I think both should get in.



I'm not so sure Eli is more prolific on the big stage than BR. Roeth had a pretty clutch throw to Santonio Holmes to to beat AZ in the SB...for example.


I think everyone agrees that Ben is a great player and a HOF. But the difference between he and Eli is who has played around them.
RE: RE: ....  
pjcas18 : 3/6/2018 3:48 pm : link
In comment 13852458 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13852439 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I think Ben's a better QB (marginally), but Eli was a greater driver in his teams championships.

I think both should get in.



I'm not so sure Eli is more prolific on the big stage than BR. Roeth had a pretty clutch throw to Santonio Holmes to to beat AZ in the SB...for example.


Roethlisberger has I believe by far the worst passing line of a SB winning QB in NFL history.

9 for 21 123 yards 0 TD's and 2 INTs in the SB vs Seattle.

and his team won

Eli has a higher QB Rating than Ben in the playoffs. I think Eli is one of the few QB's in the NFL whose QB rating in the post-season is higher than the regular season.

Weird  
Thegratefulhead : 3/6/2018 3:52 pm : link
The whole Eli in the HoF is difficult. To me he belongs in there. He was the MVP of 2 of the greatest sports moments of my life. I love Eli Manning. He will get in because of those 2 amazing runs, who he beat and where. He is as cool a cat as anyone who has ever played in big spots. Not afraid to fail. I donít understand the how or why of it but if you get him there, he can narrow his focus to a fine point.

He is a very average regular season QB. Not a special arm talent, below average in accuracy for a modern QB. He is as unathletic as anyone I have ever seen play the position. It is almost like he is bored in the regular season. He is a real student of the game. From the neck up, he is as good as anyone. We use a lot of subjective evidence to make him one the greats. I donít blame anyone for that. I feel like Brees and Big Ben are clearly better QBs. I donít think either one of them could have led the Giants to those SB victories over the Patriots, they lose both games in my mind. I donít think they even make it through the playoffs those years. Itís weird.
RE: RE: RE: RE: How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 3:53 pm : link
In comment 13852465 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852463 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


In comment 13852456 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm



Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?



Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?



The 12 because those are the games that matter most.


Got it. So Eli is the better player, because despite outplaying him over 200+ games or so, Eli barely outplayed him in 12 because "those are the ones that matter." Does it occur to you that in order to get to those 12 games, teams have to play well over the regular season? Or to put it another way, if Eli had played as well as a hall of famer, he would have played in more than 12 playoff games?
RE: Weird  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 3:54 pm : link
In comment 13852477 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
The whole Eli in the HoF is difficult. To me he belongs in there. He was the MVP of 2 of the greatest sports moments of my life. I love Eli Manning. He will get in because of those 2 amazing runs, who he beat and where. He is as cool a cat as anyone who has ever played in big spots. Not afraid to fail. I donít understand the how or why of it but if you get him there, he can narrow his focus to a fine point.

He is a very average regular season QB. Not a special arm talent, below average in accuracy for a modern QB. He is as unathletic as anyone I have ever seen play the position. It is almost like he is bored in the regular season. He is a real student of the game. From the neck up, he is as good as anyone. We use a lot of subjective evidence to make him one the greats. I donít blame anyone for that. I feel like Brees and Big Ben are clearly better QBs. I donít think either one of them could have led the Giants to those SB victories over the Patriots, they lose both games in my mind. I donít think they even make it through the playoffs those years. Itís weird.


When comparing all these QBs, it should be noted that I think all of them are very good. So knocking them isnt taking away from what they have done though.

Here's a test. Put Eli in NO with Payton for his career - you think his numbers improve? And do Brees suffer while playing in NY? Fun speculation.

You think Eli would win less/more SBs with all the talent Ben had to play within his career. It's interesting nonetheless.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/6/2018 3:55 pm : link
when I brought up Griese, Blanda, Stabler and Tarkenton, the response was "voters make bad choices". Those guys are a mixture of stat compilers and winners.

There are so many historical precedents that has made Eli's inclusion in the HoF certain.

You'd have to claim about a dozen QB's don't belong to keep Eli out, and that isn't going to happen. The guy is a 2 time SB MVP and will finish in the top 5 of nearly every passing category.

But voters just make bad choices....
Slightly related, but on Eli's entry on pro footbal reference is this  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 3:57 pm : link
article, which so far is very good.
Pat Shurmur and the Giants: Simple Complexity and Changing the Conversation - ( New Window )
RE: RE: But you arenít and wouldnít be exclusively  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 3:59 pm : link
In comment 13852429 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13852323 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


rewarding health. Itís part of a resume, just like anything else. How much you want to weigh it is debatable but to simply say youíd rather have excellence is completely ignoring longevity. Itís not and either/or scenario.



I don't have a problem citing longevity. But it can't be part of the lead. In the business world, longevity gets recognized with a pen, a watch, or maybe a plaque. But you don't get a huge bonus for always punching in...
I don't think that's a great analogy. For almost every job where you get a watch for longevity, the cog inside is both symbolic and emblematic. Not so for a starting QB on an NFL team.
yeah  
UConn4523 : 3/6/2018 4:01 pm : link
Eli is just punching the clock. Good grief.
RE: LOL..  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 4:02 pm : link
In comment 13852487 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
when I brought up Griese, Blanda, Stabler and Tarkenton, the response was "voters make bad choices". Those guys are a mixture of stat compilers and winners.

There are so many historical precedents that has made Eli's inclusion in the HoF certain.

You'd have to claim about a dozen QB's don't belong to keep Eli out, and that isn't going to happen. The guy is a 2 time SB MVP and will finish in the top 5 of nearly every passing category.

But voters just make bad choices....


None of those guys played as recently as 40 years ago. Were they much better than their peers? Their numbers may look crappy now, but how do they look for the era in which they played? You tell me, you brought them up.

The point is, things are changing in the way sportswriters judge players. More advanced statistics are being used, correctly, to compare one player over another. My argument is that using these statistics, Eli is an average player compared to his contemporaries and therefore should not be in the hall of fame. You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
RE: RE: LOL..  
Thegratefulhead : 3/6/2018 4:13 pm : link
In comment 13852497 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 13852487 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


when I brought up Griese, Blanda, Stabler and Tarkenton, the response was "voters make bad choices". Those guys are a mixture of stat compilers and winners.

There are so many historical precedents that has made Eli's inclusion in the HoF certain.

You'd have to claim about a dozen QB's don't belong to keep Eli out, and that isn't going to happen. The guy is a 2 time SB MVP and will finish in the top 5 of nearly every passing category.

But voters just make bad choices....



None of those guys played as recently as 40 years ago. Were they much better than their peers? Their numbers may look crappy now, but how do they look for the era in which they played? You tell me, you brought them up.

The point is, things are changing in the way sportswriters judge players. More advanced statistics are being used, correctly, to compare one player over another. My argument is that using these statistics, Eli is an average player compared to his contemporaries and therefore should not be in the hall of fame. You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
I am an advanced stat guy. I like QBR and DVOA. It is throws like this one that put him the Hall. The spot is so big, so much pressure...perfect. Hall of Fame Eli is famous, they will be talking about him 50 years from now. He belongs.
Eli to Manningham - ( New Window )
RE: LOL..  
Les in TO : 3/6/2018 8:23 pm : link
In comment 13852487 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


But voters just make bad choices....
understatement of the decade.
RE: RE: LOL..  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 8:27 pm : link
In comment 13852687 Les in TO said:
Quote:
In comment 13852487 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:




But voters just make bad choices....

understatement of the decade.
or even a score
RE: RE: RE: ....  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 8:40 pm : link
In comment 13852469 dep026 said:
Quote:


I think everyone agrees that Ben is a great player and a HOF. But the difference between he and Eli is who has played around them.


This is the same bullsh-t I used to hear about the Elway to Marino to Montana to Aikman to etc arguments. Great players make other players around them better. Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps that is what's been going on in Pittsburgh for the BR Era? That he had the qualities to make others perform at a higher level?

You know, that thing that franchise QBs do...
Now you..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/6/2018 10:03 pm : link
are just being dense.

Quote:
You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.


I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??

Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.

That isn't being dumb - it is being logical
I don't know if Eli will get into the HOF...  
EricJ : 3/7/2018 7:39 am : link
and I think that really rests on two factors...
1. How he performs now as he closes out his career.
2. Votes from writers in other cities. Remember, Carson barely got in and he was a better LB than Eli is a QB.

Although I think it is a close call, the people who say that Eli should not be in the discussion are absolutely ridiculous AND of some of those people have a vote, then that right there should diminish the legitimacy of the HOF induction process.
RE: Now you..  
Thegratefulhead : 3/7/2018 9:32 am : link
In comment 13852771 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
are just being dense.



Quote:


You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.



I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??

Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.

That isn't being dumb - it is being logical
Fat man we share the argument for the Eli's Hall. That is why I believe he gets in. He has been very average outside of our reasons. Most players going into the hall, everyone says, yeah HoFer. That is not true with Eli, not with current and former players and analysts. There is debate. It isn't a slam dunk like we hope it is.
I donít agree  
UConn4523 : 3/7/2018 9:52 am : link
with most players in the Hall being an agreed upon consensus. I actually disagree with that greatly.

I know fome fans think only the greatest player of each generation gets in but that simply isnít true. Just because you have a debate doesnít mean the player doesnít deserve it.
RE: Now you..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2018 10:16 am : link
In comment 13852771 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
are just being dense.



Quote:


You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.



I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??

Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.

That isn't being dumb - it is being logical

I don't think Eli is quite the slam dunk HOF candidate that some here believe, although I do think he will ultimately get in. What will make his case interesting is that there is a counterpoint for every positive point in his favor:

Top five in all or most passing categories? Yes, but also will have led the NFL in interceptions and turnovers for the entirety of his career, and (perhaps more significantly) the rest of the top five in passing yards, TDs, etc. will likely be comprised of his contemporaries by the time he's up for consideration, which will underscore the evolution of the game into a passing league.

Two SB victories and SB MVPs? Yes, but no postseason wins in any other season, and no postseason appearances in more than half of his seasons. And two SB victories alone hasn't been enough to get Jim Plunkett into the HOF.

Historic consecutive games streak? Yes, but also a W/L record that is hovering around .500 (and could end up below .500 depending on how the team does this season and next).

We, as Giants fans, will naturally appreciate the positive points and have a different understanding of the context surrounding some of the counterpoints. But not every voter will have the same appreciation of Eli's career in general. He likely won't get much (or any) credit for his handling of the media in NYC for his career. He may be unfairly compared to his own brother simply due to his last name. There will be seemingly compelling arguments against his enshrinement.

Does Eli deserve to get into the HOF? Yes, IMO. But that doesn't mean his case will be an obvious or simple one when the time comes.
RE: RE: Now you..  
Britt in VA : 3/7/2018 10:25 am : link
In comment 13853111 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13852771 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


are just being dense.



Quote:


You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.



I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??

Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.

That isn't being dumb - it is being logical


I don't think Eli is quite the slam dunk HOF candidate that some here believe, although I do think he will ultimately get in. What will make his case interesting is that there is a counterpoint for every positive point in his favor:

Top five in all or most passing categories? Yes, but also will have led the NFL in interceptions and turnovers for the entirety of his career, and (perhaps more significantly) the rest of the top five in passing yards, TDs, etc. will likely be comprised of his contemporaries by the time he's up for consideration, which will underscore the evolution of the game into a passing league.


Look at the top 15 players all time in INT's:

1 Brett Favre+ 336 1991-2010 4TM
2 George Blanda+ 277 1949-1975 4TM
3 John Hadl 268 1962-1977 4TM
4 Vinny Testaverde 267 1987-2007 7TM
5 Fran Tarkenton+ 266 1961-1978 2TM
6 Norm Snead 257 1961-1976 5TM
7 Johnny Unitas+ 253 1956-1973 2TM
8 Dan Marino+ 252 1983-1999 mia
9 Peyton Manning 251 1998-2015 2TM
10 Y.A. Tittle+ 248 1948-1964 3TM
11 Jim Hart 247 1966-1984 2TM
12 Bobby Layne+ 243 1948-1962 4TM
13 Dan Fouts+ 242 1973-1987 sdg
14 Warren Moon+ 233 1984-2000 4TM
15 Drew Brees 228 2001-2017 2TM
Eli Manning 228 2004-2017 nyg

I see a lot of HOF's on that list.

Quote:
Two SB victories and SB MVPs? Yes, but no postseason wins in any other season, and no postseason appearances in more than half of his seasons. And two SB victories alone hasn't been enough to get Jim Plunkett into the HOF.


While Eli will finish in the Top 5-10 in all passing categories all time, Jim Plunkett is in the 60's-70's. Eli has the Hardware AND the stats. Plunkett doesn't.

Quote:
Historic consecutive games streak? Yes, but also a W/L record that is hovering around .500 (and could end up below .500 depending on how the team does this season and next).

If you look at it by win percentage, then yes. If you look at it by career wins, Eli has won the 12th most games of any QB ever. All 11 guys ahead of him are in the HOF.

[quote]We, as Giants fans, will naturally appreciate the positive points and have a different understanding of the context surrounding some of the counterpoints. But not every voter will have the same appreciation of Eli's career in general. He likely won't get much (or any) credit for his handling of the media in NYC for his career. He may be unfairly compared to his own brother simply due to his last name. There will be seemingly compelling arguments against his enshrinement.

Does Eli deserve to get into the HOF? Yes, IMO. But that doesn't mean his case will be an obvious or simple one when the time comes.


He may not be first ballot, but he checks every box and will eventually get in.
This was supposed to be a response to the win percentage statement:  
Britt in VA : 3/7/2018 10:26 am : link
Quote:
If you look at it by win percentage, then yes. If you look at it by career wins, Eli has won the 12th most games of any QB ever. All 11 guys ahead of him are in the HOF.
Not winning another playoff game  
UConn4523 : 3/7/2018 10:32 am : link
is irrelevant. Heís had two legendary runs. Anyone that dings him for not winning a wildcard game on top of that is a fucking moron.
RE: This was supposed to be a response to the win percentage statement:  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2018 10:38 am : link
In comment 13853131 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


If you look at it by win percentage, then yes. If you look at it by career wins, Eli has won the 12th most games of any QB ever. All 11 guys ahead of him are in the HOF.


Britt, I agree that he'll get in. I don't think you can parse career wins while ignoring winning percentage; more to the point, I don't think that HOF voters will separate one from the other.

As for your point about the stats and the hardware, my point was that the stats won't matter as much in terms of historical significance because of the passing explosion in this era. It's basically like HR stats in baseball.

Like I said though, I do believe Eli will get in, and deservedly so. I'm just trying to be objective about what the negative points will likely be when he's up for consideration.
RE: Not winning another playoff game  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2018 10:45 am : link
In comment 13853147 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
is irrelevant. Heís had two legendary runs. Anyone that dings him for not winning a wildcard game on top of that is a fucking moron.

If you don't think that will come up in consideration for Eli's HOF candidacy, you're kidding yourself, regardless of whether you think those that might consider it a factor are "f*cking morons" or not.
I really donít think I am  
UConn4523 : 3/7/2018 11:21 am : link
people have to sell papers and get clicks. I donít think the average voter will care that Eli hasnít won a 9th playoff game.
I'm not sure Eli gets in  
Go Terps : 3/7/2018 11:38 am : link
2011 was a long time ago, and these last five years haven't helped his legacy at all.

While he appears to be universally well regarded by the people that know him, there are many voters that still think of him as Peyton's little brother and the guy that spurned San Diego. I don't think his image has ever fully gotten over that.

Personally I feel very strongly that he's a better player than some quarterbacks that are already in the HOF, but there are a lot of people that don't agree.
RE: I really donít think I am  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2018 11:44 am : link
In comment 13853233 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
people have to sell papers and get clicks. I donít think the average voter will care that Eli hasnít won a 9th playoff game.

In a vacuum, you're probably right. Considering how Eli's resume in general contains a lot of very high highs but also some legitimate blemishes, I absolutely think they'll care. And you're being biased by framing it as "hasn't won his 9th playoff game" when the context is just as accurate by saying, in 12 of 14 seasons (or 13 of 15, or 14 of 16, whatever, potentially), Eli's team did not advance at all in the playoffs. And it will be underscored by his team missing the playoffs in 8 of 14 seasons (or potentially 9 of 15, 10 of 16, etc.).

Maybe I'm just being a debbie downer about it, but I genuinely think it will be a factor. Not something that keeps him out of the HOF by any stretch, but I think it's a little bit polyannish to suggest that it won't be considered at all by voters. They should consider it, IMO. It's part of his resume, and they should consider his entire resume, and that entire resume will still get him into the HOF.
RE: Now you..  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/7/2018 11:57 am : link
In comment 13852771 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
are just being dense.



Quote:


You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.



I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??

Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.

That isn't being dumb - it is being logical


AGAIN, his "top 5 in all stats" is a function of his longevity, not his play. Putting him in the hall of fame would be rewarding an average player who managed to play a long time because his team won championships while he was there and the Giants never considered another option. No one disputes that his percentage stats are average. He is an average player.
This longevity argument you are making  
UConn4523 : 3/7/2018 12:03 pm : link
is horrid. If he was just an average player he wouldnít have 200+ starts, consecutively I might add, which actually does matter. We heard it from every reporters mouth across the nation when Geno started.

So why should we believe that voters hate Eli but not believe they feel strongly about his iron man streak? And all of that doesnít factor in 2 of the best title runs he sport has ever seen, as well as stat totals both good and bad.
RE: I'm not sure Eli gets in  
bw in dc : 3/7/2018 12:13 pm : link
In comment 13853261 Go Terps said:
Quote:

While he appears to be universally well regarded by the people that know him, there are many voters that still think of him as Peyton's little brother and the guy that spurned San Diego. I don't think his image has ever fully gotten over that.
I think that will be offset by the fact he slayed the Dragon - the Pats - twice. And there are enough in the media who don't like the Pats - they way they treat the media, Belichick, all their cheating issues, etc - who will be reward Eli for that feat...
Eli is an average player  
dep026 : 3/7/2018 1:02 pm : link
I hope you mean now. If youíre saying for a career....

RE: This longevity argument you are making  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/7/2018 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13853292 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
is horrid. If he was just an average player he wouldnít have 200+ starts, consecutively I might add, which actually does matter. We heard it from every reporters mouth across the nation when Geno started.

So why should we believe that voters hate Eli but not believe they feel strongly about his iron man streak? And all of that doesnít factor in 2 of the best title runs he sport has ever seen, as well as stat totals both good and bad.


The longevity streak is impressive, but it's largely a matter of luck. He's lucky he didn't bang his hand on a helmet, or twist his knee the wrong way, or any of the other numerous ways players can get hurt. Ask yourself, what has Eli done to avoid injury that every other quarterback that has gotten hurt does not?

RE: RE: RE: Now you..  
Thegratefulhead : 3/7/2018 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13853129 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13853111 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13852771 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


are just being dense.



Quote:


You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.



I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??

Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.

That isn't being dumb - it is being logical


I don't think Eli is quite the slam dunk HOF candidate that some here believe, although I do think he will ultimately get in. What will make his case interesting is that there is a counterpoint for every positive point in his favor:

Top five in all or most passing categories? Yes, but also will have led the NFL in interceptions and turnovers for the entirety of his career, and (perhaps more significantly) the rest of the top five in passing yards, TDs, etc. will likely be comprised of his contemporaries by the time he's up for consideration, which will underscore the evolution of the game into a passing league.



Look at the top 15 players all time in INT's:

1 Brett Favre+ 336 1991-2010 4TM
2 George Blanda+ 277 1949-1975 4TM
3 John Hadl 268 1962-1977 4TM
4 Vinny Testaverde 267 1987-2007 7TM
5 Fran Tarkenton+ 266 1961-1978 2TM
6 Norm Snead 257 1961-1976 5TM
7 Johnny Unitas+ 253 1956-1973 2TM
8 Dan Marino+ 252 1983-1999 mia
9 Peyton Manning 251 1998-2015 2TM
10 Y.A. Tittle+ 248 1948-1964 3TM
11 Jim Hart 247 1966-1984 2TM
12 Bobby Layne+ 243 1948-1962 4TM
13 Dan Fouts+ 242 1973-1987 sdg
14 Warren Moon+ 233 1984-2000 4TM
15 Drew Brees 228 2001-2017 2TM
Eli Manning 228 2004-2017 nyg

I see a lot of HOF's on that list.



Quote:


Two SB victories and SB MVPs? Yes, but no postseason wins in any other season, and no postseason appearances in more than half of his seasons. And two SB victories alone hasn't been enough to get Jim Plunkett into the HOF.



While Eli will finish in the Top 5-10 in all passing categories all time, Jim Plunkett is in the 60's-70's. Eli has the Hardware AND the stats. Plunkett doesn't.



Quote:


Historic consecutive games streak? Yes, but also a W/L record that is hovering around .500 (and could end up below .500 depending on how the team does this season and next).

If you look at it by win percentage, then yes. If you look at it by career wins, Eli has won the 12th most games of any QB ever. All 11 guys ahead of him are in the HOF.

[quote]We, as Giants fans, will naturally appreciate the positive points and have a different understanding of the context surrounding some of the counterpoints. But not every voter will have the same appreciation of Eli's career in general. He likely won't get much (or any) credit for his handling of the media in NYC for his career. He may be unfairly compared to his own brother simply due to his last name. There will be seemingly compelling arguments against his enshrinement.

Does Eli deserve to get into the HOF? Yes, IMO. But that doesn't mean his case will be an obvious or simple one when the time comes.



He may not be first ballot, but he checks every box and will eventually get in.
Britt I agree with you, he gets in. He does not check every box. He has not been consistently excellent. Ever in the running for NFL MVP even once? How many Pro Bowls where he was voted in IE people did not decline to go and that got him in. There is a debate there. He isn't finished yet either, even I think I think it is time to draft and start a new guy I hope to hell he proves me wrong and lights it up this year. I want Eli to go out strong, love the guy.
He should have been in the running in 2011....  
Britt in VA : 3/7/2018 3:05 pm : link
and then went in and beat Mr. 15-1 MVP at home.

As far as consistently excellent, that didn't keep Kurt Warner out. His stats were very inconsistent, even worse than Eli's in many regards on a season to season basis.
RE: He should have been in the running in 2011....  
bw in dc : 3/7/2018 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13853538 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and then went in and beat Mr. 15-1 MVP at home.

As far as consistently excellent, that didn't keep Kurt Warner out. His stats were very inconsistent, even worse than Eli's in many regards on a season to season basis.


Warner should not be in the HoF. I think the rags to riches narrative (bagging groceries, Arena League, etc) are big for the bleeding hearts on the voting committee.

But he was better than Eli. His best seasons crush Eli, and he led two different franchises to the SB. Was really good in the playoffs as well...
His best seasons crushed Eli?  
Britt in VA : 3/7/2018 3:45 pm : link
I think that's a little bit of a stretch.
RE: His best seasons crushed Eli?  
Thegratefulhead : 3/7/2018 4:01 pm : link
In comment 13853595 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I think that's a little bit of a stretch.
I think Warner is good comparison of why Eli gets in. I think Eli gets in. No excuses NADA...he is in my book. He isn't a slam dunk. I have heard the people that vote talk about him. Eli is polarizing. There are people that actually think Eli sucks. These include, players, sports analysts and some Giant Fans. So while I am confident he gets in, I do not believe he checks every box or that roll out the welcome mat for him....Don't kill me for thinking, because I think he deserves to be in.
RE: His best seasons crushed Eli?  
bw in dc : 3/7/2018 4:16 pm : link
In comment 13853595 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I think that's a little bit of a stretch.


65%, 41tds, 13ints, 4350 yards, 109 QB Rating, MVP.

Which season by Eli is comparable?
the people  
Les in TO : 3/7/2018 4:51 pm : link
who decide whether or not Eli gets in are the 32 sports writers who represent each city where there is an NFL franchise (meaning 2 from New York).

Will he get 25 of 32 votes for the hall? I'm not willing to go all in on that bet. When you see articles like Eli is voted the most overrated QB in the league and anonymous scouts describing Eli as belonging in the second tier of QBs (below the Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, Brees of the world) it's not clear that people associate him with the hall of fame.

Brad Johnson Trent Dilfer and Nick Foles also played well in the post season and won super bowls and they are not going to the hall.
Singular  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/7/2018 4:59 pm : link
for each of them. Won one SB.

Eli has won 2 and was MVP. Add the career stats and he'll get in. This argument isn't whether he is first ballot or not.

Again - Griese, Stabler and Blanda are in.
It would be nice for the clock to start ticking  
Jimmy Googs : 3/7/2018 5:11 pm : link
on Eli's eligibility. For one, it should improve his chances versus deteriorating his overall body of work.

And two, it would reduce the frequency of these threads...

RE: Singular  
bw in dc : 3/7/2018 5:14 pm : link
In comment 13853863 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
for each of them. Won one SB.

Eli has won 2 and was MVP. Add the career stats and he'll get in. This argument isn't whether he is first ballot or not.

Again - Griese, Stabler and Blanda are in.


FWIW...Griese was a 6X Pro Bowl selection and a 2X All Pro...and an MVP.
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