I think it’s absurd to even consider Tony Romo for the HOF. But before the writer of this article essentially agrees, he takes more than a few shots at Eli and concludes:
Eli Manning is clearly not of the same quality as the other players on this list. I have never seriously considered him a legitimate HOF candidate. He’ll probably elicit serious consideration simply because of two Super Bowl wins (and MVPs) and... well, New York. But by any objective measure he’s not the same caliber quarterback as the other names on this list, including Tony Romo. |
I know it’s a Cowpukes blog but how does anyone say they’re “okay” with Kurt Warner being in the HOF but Eli does not belong? And how does anyone consider Romo to have been a better QB than Eli? I hate to give this guy the clicks.
Making, and breaking, the case for Tony Romo and the Hall of Fame - Blogging The Boys - (
New Window )
And then I remember Eli throwing passes to lead the Giants to 2 wins in the 4QTR of two Super Bowls.
Romo led them on a VERY long drive at the end of the half leaving Eli with something like a minute to play. Eli answered in 45 seconds and walked into the locker room with the lead. That was a statement drive if there ever was one.
Let me repeat that "They can go fuck themselves"
And then I remember Eli throwing passes to lead the Giants to 2 wins in the 4QTR of two Super Bowls.
Is that the same play that made Bill Parcells decide to leave NFL coaching forever?
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vs the Seahawks and then getting tackled to lose the game.
And then I remember Eli throwing passes to lead the Giants to 2 wins in the 4QTR of two Super Bowls.
Is that the same play that made Bill Parcells decide to leave NFL coaching forever?
Yep.
Two of them have won multiple super bowls. The other has win 2 play off games.
And then I remember Eli throwing passes to lead the Giants to 2 wins in the 4QTR of two Super Bowls.
this is exactly the image i have when I think "Romo / Playoffs". No way is Romo in the same league as Eli.
Romo was a better QB when it did not matter the majority of the time. Eli was the better QB when it did. As tough as Romo was, he missed a lot of time to legitimate injuries, Eli never missed a game.
Couldn't agree more. There are certain players who always
rise to the occasion, they don't choke. Eli is one of those
guys.
2. You know what is bigger than the alleged New York bias? Dallas Cowboys bias. Any Pro Bowl level QB that plays for that team (which is what Romo was) is hyped beyond what they actually were.
But his career was not better than Eli s. You can compare regular seasons all you want, but in big spots Eli was infinitely better.
As to the HOF, I don t think Romo will get serious consideration.
Eli will, but he is not a lock to get in as many seem to think.
As for Eli, the stain on his career will be his lifetime W-L record . One more lousy season and he will become the Gene Shue of NFL legends , essentially a win one, lose one guy who hung around forever .
And what about Eli’s entire 2007 run through the playoffs? More impressive than anything Romo has done.
Romo was a better regular season QB than Eli, the numbers bear that out clearly, but Eli had much bigger moments in the playoffs.
But to say he has been clutch his entire career, is crazy.....
He had a great run, after a so-so season in 2007....
His greatest season, 2011, was the season that gave him the "clutch title" with all the fourth quarter comebacks....
But Eli has played 14 seasons.....in 12 of them, he had not led his team to a playoff victory......
He has never had a high statistical, eye popping season.....he averages 25 td's, under 4k yards, and under 60% completions, while averaging an int a game.....you play 14 years, where qb's basically can't be touched, and you accumulate stats to get into the top 10 category of lifetime stats.....THIS IS HOW THE MAJORITY OF THE MEDIA AND NON GIANT FANS LOOK AT ELI.....
They don't see that he won a SB with a defense that gave up 400 points in the regular season.....they don't see how he has played without an OL for almost 7 seasons......they don't see the injuries to Smith, Hicks, Cruz, or OBj. They don't see the lack of a running game that he has had for most of his career.....or lack of stellar TE, too...and they just say, look at the last two seasons, without factoring in what Mac did to this offense and Eli.....
Who knows what Eli might have done, if he played with better offensive support? Giant fans tend to over rate him, while uninformed fans go in the other direction....
HOF? I think so, but not a first or possibly even second ballot....it may take awhile....
What was he? 8th round or UDFA?
But pointing out that in 14 seasons he has only led the Giants to play off victories in two of them, makes a poor case for him despite the extenuating circumstances you site.
But to say he has been clutch his entire career, is crazy.....
He had a great run, after a so-so season in 2007....
His greatest season, 2011, was the season that gave him the "clutch title" with all the fourth quarter comebacks....
But Eli has played 14 seasons.....in 12 of them, he had not led his team to a playoff victory......
He has never had a high statistical, eye popping season.....he averages 25 td's, under 4k yards, and under 60% completions, while averaging an int a game.....you play 14 years, where qb's basically can't be touched, and you accumulate stats to get into the top 10 category of lifetime stats.....THIS IS HOW THE MAJORITY OF THE MEDIA AND NON GIANT FANS LOOK AT ELI.....
They don't see that he won a SB with a defense that gave up 400 points in the regular season.....they don't see how he has played without an OL for almost 7 seasons......they don't see the injuries to Smith, Hicks, Cruz, or OBj. They don't see the lack of a running game that he has had for most of his career.....or lack of stellar TE, too...and they just say, look at the last two seasons, without factoring in what Mac did to this offense and Eli.....
Who knows what Eli might have done, if he played with better offensive support? Giant fans tend to over rate him, while uninformed fans go in the other direction....
HOF? I think so, but not a first or possibly even second ballot....it may take awhile....
Basically this. That 2011 team was a 2-14 team without Eli.
the cult of eli is something to behold.almost like a religious figure.
Wow, Eli Manning fans on a Giants message board. What a fucking surprise.
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Romo to the HOF is a silly joke. No one in their right mind would argue Romo had an HOF career. But this guy’s saying Romo was better and Kurt Warner was better than Eli. Romo is so ridiculous, I really don’t care. But why do people think Kurt Warner is better than Eli? And why is Big Ben considered to be so much better than Eli? To me the two Sups and two Sup MVPs and Eli’s consecutive game starting streak (which should still be unbroken) make him an easy HOF selection.
the cult of eli is something to behold.almost like a religious figure.
So is the cult of anti-Eli people.
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In comment 13849840 trueblueinpw said:
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Romo to the HOF is a silly joke. No one in their right mind would argue Romo had an HOF career. But this guy’s saying Romo was better and Kurt Warner was better than Eli. Romo is so ridiculous, I really don’t care. But why do people think Kurt Warner is better than Eli? And why is Big Ben considered to be so much better than Eli? To me the two Sups and two Sup MVPs and Eli’s consecutive game starting streak (which should still be unbroken) make him an easy HOF selection.
the cult of eli is something to behold.almost like a religious figure.
So is the cult of anti-Eli people.
well played my friend
Romo before Eli makes no sense what did he ever do except maybe provide the same hype Eli and the Giants did this year annually for the Cowgirls. Not sure how you fix the process but for sure in most sports there plenty of guys going in each year that make us all ask really is he a true HOF?
I think he could even work an insult in on a thread about pizza.
A fucking troll of the highest degree.
I think he could even work an insult in on a thread about pizza.
A fucking troll of the highest degree.
if this bothers you lady, seek help.
Let's see current threads. On the Giants being down to the last 4 teams to play the opener, somehow an Eli slam was worked in:
sundayatone : 2/27/2018 2:03 pm : link : reply
he saw eli play well against philly in dec,musta missed the following weeks horror show in az.
In the overrated players thread:
sundayatone : 2/26/2018 5:31 pm : link : reply
on the eli myth
In the Bart Scott thread:
sundayatone : 2/24/2018 10:39 am : link : reply
In comment 13841264 Route 9 said:
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In comment 13840956 mfsd said:
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that notifies them every time Eli’s name is mentioned in a discussion, so they can jump on ASAP to dump on him
They don't even do much of a good job at trying to hide it here either. Same old boring shit.
yeah,all the eli cultists trolls make it so easy.
On the Schwartz thread:
Just a one-trick pony. Calling out "the cult of Eli" is fucking rich. And by rich, I mean galactically fucking stupid.
Let's see current threads. On the Giants being down to the last 4 teams to play the opener, somehow an Eli slam was worked in:
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gettelman will be happy
sundayatone : 2/27/2018 2:03 pm : link : reply
he saw eli play well against philly in dec,musta missed the following weeks horror show in az.
In the overrated players thread:
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another smart take
sundayatone : 2/26/2018 5:31 pm : link : reply
on the eli myth
In the Bart Scott thread:
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facts not allowed in the eli cult club.
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RE: RE: I swear some of our more endearing trolls here have an alarm set up
sundayatone : 2/24/2018 10:39 am : link : reply
In comment 13841264 Route 9 said:
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In comment 13840956 mfsd said:
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that notifies them every time Eli’s name is mentioned in a discussion, so they can jump on ASAP to dump on him
They don't even do much of a good job at trying to hide it here either. Same old boring shit.
yeah,all the eli cultists trolls make it so easy.
On the Schwartz thread:
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macadoo was the only adult in the room,did nothing wrong,eli benched himself. you are right about mara,shoulda ordered stevie to play webb,the world would not have come to a end.
Just a one-trick pony. Calling out "the cult of Eli" is fucking rich. And by rich, I mean galactically fucking stupid.
you mad bro. the last 5yrs the offense has been broken twice with saint eli,30 pts has been seen since 2015,open your eyes,stop living in the past,time to move on.
Your last sentence is pretty damning evidence of your stupidity.
Your last sentence is pretty damning evidence of your stupidity.
pretty tuff behind that keyboard,figures. but i will leave it that.
no,but i am a very hard marker.
so you agree,not a hof?
so you agree,not a hof?
If that's what you got from my argument you are everything Fatman said.
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so you agree,not a hof?
If that's what you got from my argument you are everything Fatman said.
really, so i think that aikman/eli not hof worthy,name calling and insults are the answer,just makes you feel better then go for it.
But to say he has been clutch his entire career, is crazy.....
He had a great run, after a so-so season in 2007....
His greatest season, 2011, was the season that gave him the "clutch title" with all the fourth quarter comebacks....
But Eli has played 14 seasons.....in 12 of them, he had not led his team to a playoff victory......
He has never had a high statistical, eye popping season.....he averages 25 td's, under 4k yards, and under 60% completions, while averaging an int a game.....you play 14 years, where qb's basically can't be touched, and you accumulate stats to get into the top 10 category of lifetime stats.....THIS IS HOW THE MAJORITY OF THE MEDIA AND NON GIANT FANS LOOK AT ELI.....
They don't see that he won a SB with a defense that gave up 400 points in the regular season.....they don't see how he has played without an OL for almost 7 seasons......they don't see the injuries to Smith, Hicks, Cruz, or OBj. They don't see the lack of a running game that he has had for most of his career.....or lack of stellar TE, too...and they just say, look at the last two seasons, without factoring in what Mac did to this offense and Eli.....
Who knows what Eli might have done, if he played with better offensive support? Giant fans tend to over rate him, while uninformed fans go in the other direction....
HOF? I think so, but not a first or possibly even second ballot....it may take awhile....
Good job, Doomster. I believe Eli should make the HoF but I'm not sure he will. If the Giants can fix the Oline before Eli retires, he may stand a chance.
Manning just did more with less his whole career. It's an indictment of the organization that they failed to surround him with similar talent.
really, so i think that aikman/eli not hof worthy,name calling and insults are the answer,just makes you feel better then go for it.
No my point was that if guys like Aikman and Namath are HOF worthy then Eli should clearly be a lock. Just because YOU have different criteria for being HOF worthy it doesn't mean shit. You can't remove guys you don't feel worthy you need to compare accomplishments. Eli will be top 5 in every stat category by the time he is retired and he is a 2 time SB SB champ and MVP. You don't think a guy with the 5th best numbers of any QB to ever play the game is deserving of the HOF?
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really, so i think that aikman/eli not hof worthy,name calling and insults are the answer,just makes you feel better then go for it.
No my point was that if guys like Aikman and Namath are HOF worthy then Eli should clearly be a lock. Just because YOU have different criteria for being HOF worthy it doesn't mean shit. You can't remove guys you don't feel worthy you need to compare accomplishments. Eli will be top 5 in every stat category by the time he is retired and he is a 2 time SB SB champ and MVP. You don't think a guy with the 5th best numbers of any QB to ever play the game is deserving of the HOF?
eli may get in but it may take a little longer then most here would like.
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In comment 13850089 sundayatone said:
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really, so i think that aikman/eli not hof worthy,name calling and insults are the answer,just makes you feel better then go for it.
No my point was that if guys like Aikman and Namath are HOF worthy then Eli should clearly be a lock. Just because YOU have different criteria for being HOF worthy it doesn't mean shit. You can't remove guys you don't feel worthy you need to compare accomplishments. Eli will be top 5 in every stat category by the time he is retired and he is a 2 time SB SB champ and MVP. You don't think a guy with the 5th best numbers of any QB to ever play the game is deserving of the HOF?
eli may get in but it may take a little longer then most here would like.
might
He bet maxes his teammates better? Riiiiight. I’m sure you can measure that too, right?
How did Mario Manningham do after the Giants? What about his awful TE talent post Shockey that he won 1, really 2 Super Bowls with? Jake Ballard and Kevin Boss were awesome right? Did he have any hand in turning an undrafted nobody name Victor Cruz into a superstar overnight? How about post Tiki having a bunch of mid round talent at RB?
Such a stupid comment. And I didn’t even get into calling an actual game and putting his teammates in position to succeed.
I understand there’s serious football fans that don’t think Eli belongs in the HOF at this point in his career. But, I think these people are wrong and I think most of these people are saying that Eli doesn’t belong because he hasn’t been as good as Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. And, even if you accept that premise, it’s still a bar way too high for Canton. You win two Super Bowls and two Supe MVPs, you start 222 consecutive games in the NFL (fuck the fuckity fucking fuck wad that broke that streak) and you have top 5 stats in almost every category of your position and you’re part of some of the greatest NFL plays and games of all time and, yeah, you’re going to be in Canton.
But wow, Troy Aikman doesn’t belong in the HOF? What would be the argument for keeping Troy Aikman out of the HOF?
Agree with most on here though. He always came up short in the biggest moments. If he did not air mail Miles Austin in 2011 Eli would only have one SB. He missed a wide open throw in a huge game and Eli led two TD drives to win the game. That has always been where Eli was the far superior player.
Definitely did not see Joe Willy play. Apparently his HOF status a fairly well discussed topic and after reading up on it a bit I’ll be happy to take your word that he belongs there. Mea culpa.
Tuck had a zero for the 2nd half, no assists, no tackles, no hurries. FYI
sundayatone : 9:37 am : link : reply
MVP in 2007,tuck was the best player on the field in that game.eli no lock for the HOF due to the many mediocre and sometimes good reg seasons,a 500 W/L record and bushels of TO.
Maybe Plax? Maybe Tyree? Somebody who made a play at crunch time that impacted the outcome, perhaps?
Such a joke.
Romo was a better regular season QB than Eli, the numbers bear that out clearly, but Eli had much bigger moments in the playoffs.
I know it's not the question here, but based on some of the comments I think it's an interesting question.
If there was a re-draft today and Romo was in the 2004 NFL draft where do you think he'd go?
for this fictitious exercise you'd need to assume injuries were unpredictable.
Of Eli, Romo, Rivers and Ben, how do you think they'd be re-drafted (oh and don't forget Losman).
I don't think Eli is a slam dunk for Canton as of today (obviously there's going to be more to his career yet), and I think Romo was much better than a lot of people here give him credit for, but it's silly to flat out say that Romo was "much better".
holmancomedown : 8:27 am : link : reply
should get in for the simple fact that mediocre QB's Len Dawson,Joe Namath and Bob Griese are in !
you NEVER saw them play!
That said, in big spots against really good defenses, the QB has to be fearless when faced with a decision to pull the trigger and then fit the ball into the tight window.
Romo's ability in that area wasn't anything close to what #10's got.
It's like people think Eli's just gotten lucky to be able to suit up for so long in the NFL. In fact, it does take a fair amount of luck to avoid injury in the NFL, no doubt about that. But it also takes a great deal of skill to avoid the type of hits that fell so many others at the position - including Romo who was regularly injured and often lost significant playing time. And it takes a great deal of skill to not be benched over the course of your career - someone go look up how many times Kurt Warner was benched for injury or for performance - and also have a look at how his replacements did. Starts in the NFL count - especially at the QB position. Unless of course your name is Eli Manning and then starts don't count and neither do Super Bowl victories or game wining drives or being a central part to some of the greatest games in NFL history.
And speaking of being a central part to some of the greatest games in NFL history, can anyone tell me Romo's signature games or his all time greatest plays? Serious question, when did this guy ever deliver on the special days?
I understand there’s serious football fans that don’t think Eli belongs in the HOF at this point in his career. But, I think these people are wrong and I think most of these people are saying that Eli doesn’t belong because he hasn’t been as good as Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. And, even if you accept that premise, it’s still a bar way too high for Canton. You win two Super Bowls and two Supe MVPs, you start 222 consecutive games in the NFL (fuck the fuckity fucking fuck wad that broke that streak) and you have top 5 stats in almost every category of your position and you’re part of some of the greatest NFL plays and games of all time and, yeah, you’re going to be in Canton.
But wow, Troy Aikman doesn’t belong in the HOF? What would be the argument for keeping Troy Aikman out of the HOF?
Anyone who thinks that Namath doesn't belong in the HOF is totally clueless as to his career, don't just look at stats they can't compare to the modern era. Namath and Dawson changed the game from 3 yds and a cloud of dust to an aerial assault. And don't forget that this was back when QB's were actual football players who got hit hard and often e.g. Ben Davidson breaking Namath's jaw. Catch the HBO special on Namath if you want the real story, stats don't tell the whole story.
Simply.
That said, in big spots against really good defenses, the QB has to be fearless when faced with a decision to pull the trigger and then fit the ball into the tight window.
Romo's ability in that area wasn't anything close to what #10's got.
Absolutely, Romo much like Matt Ryan had the ball in his hands many times with a chance to advance his team and could not get it done, #10 has done it many times!!!!
Tony Romo was a better regular season QB than Eli - I think being the best QB twice in the playoffs significantly outweighs that. The author also ignores that Romo was in Eli's path both times the Giants won the Super Bowl and he came up short (arguably with a better team back in 2007).
OK, I've gone through all of this before. I'll simply say this - when you compare Namath's numbers with his contemporaries, he clearly comes up short.
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Anyone who thinks that Namath doesn't belong in the HOF is totally clueless as to his career, don't just look at stats they can't compare to the modern era. Namath and Dawson changed the game from 3 yds and a cloud of dust to an aerial assault. And don't forget that this was back when QB's were actual football players who got hit hard and often e.g. Ben Davidson breaking Namath's jaw. Catch the HBO special on Namath if you want the real story, stats don't tell the whole story.
OK, I've gone through all of this before. I'll simply say this - when you compare Namath's numbers with his contemporaries, he clearly comes up short.
If you take away his ordinary SB versus the Colts, where the Colts gave them the game, then Namath is less impressive on paper than John Hadl.
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simply because of two Super Bowl wins (and MVPs)
Simply.
Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?
It is one of the arguments I use for Eli. If Namath is in mainly for that, why isn't Eli in for two SB wins and SB MVP's?
Basically, the same can be said for Warner. If Warner doesn't win the Super Bowl on a team with a fancy nickname like the Greatest Show on Turf, he probably isn't in the HoF.
Griese is in almost exclusively because he QB'd an undefeated team.
But you still have people who say that Eli has 2 rings and two MVP's but - - - meh.
I don't get it. There are several historical precedents that prove he is a HoF'er.
The Giants upset of the Patriots in 2007 was equally significant.
Which is harder, putting up great stats all the time, or playing well in 6 games (against the toughest competition)?
I'm a Giants fan, so I love Eli, especially his record in Super Bowls. But I can also be objective and realize he has not had a hall of fame career.
He's going to finish in the top 5-10 of every statistical passing category.
Anyway, for the record, I was indeed clueless about Namath, I certainly didn’t see him play, guilty as charged, but I’ve since been convinced that he is a worthy HOF QB. Now, Kurt Warner’s another story. And I certainly did see him play.
I think most - if not all - QBs back then called their own plays, too.
But his stats are not glowing. Look at Dawson's or Unitas's. They are far superior for that era...
I think most - if not all - QBs back then called their own plays, too.
But his stats are not glowing. Look at Dawson's or Unitas's. They are far superior for that era...
Yup, that’s what I gathered. Read that he threw for over 4,000 yards one season and everyone else was tossing up 1,500 or maybe 2,000. Guess it was really the injuries that slowed him down. Also read he was a real gun slinger and that why his INTs were so high. The DBs mauling receivers and gun slinging probably accounted for a lot of his low completion percentages (which doesn’t tell much anyway) and also sank his QBR. Stats don’t tell the story in football. I knew that and should have known better about Namath.
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Which is harder, putting up great stats all the time, or playing well in 6 games (against the toughest competition)?
He's going to finish in the top 5-10 of every statistical passing category.
Well, which stats? If they are counting stats (total TDs, total yards, etc.), then that is mostly a function of his longevity. And if you could figure out the skill necessary to be in the league as long as Eli has, you could make a million bucks. But you have to admit that this is correctly classified as luck.
But as shown by the linked article, for the 'average' stats (for example, adjusted yards per attempt), which are a better indicator of game by game performance, Eli has not had a hall of fame career.
The Giants upset of the Patriots in 2007 was equally significant.
easy now homer...
Eli deserves to be in for his two SB victories.
THis is where id gets messy.....Romo deserves to be in too, because he has his own element of fame, and was better than Eli during the comparative period. May not be that strong of an arguemnent, but given the way the public perceives the HOF, you can't put Eli in and keep Romo out.
By being brash? And doing commercials with hot women? Or wearing a mink coat on the sidelines?
The more interesting question is whether Eli was ever considered the best player on his team. The only year I think he might be considered is 2009. I think Plax was better than him in 2008 until he shot himself.
Eli Manning’s career isn’t worthy of the football Hall of Fame - ( New Window )
The more interesting question is whether Eli was ever considered the best player on his team. The only year I think he might be considered is 2009. I think Plax was better than him in 2008 until he shot himself. Eli Manning’s career isn’t worthy of the football Hall of Fame - ( New Window )
2011 he absolutely carried that offense, especially in the post season run.
Quick, answer me this: money on the table, one big game for all the marbles, the whole megillah, and you’re taking which NFL QB? Romo?
I’ll take Eli and not just Eli over Romo, I’ll take Eli over anyone. In the big game, and Eli’s won the biggest game against the greatest team, TWICE, Eli delivers. Again, what is Romo’s signature play or his signature game?
Has any QB made the HOF having only won a playoff game in two seasons?
Is there a QB in the HOF with as many losses as Eli?
Eli has had a strange career. I hope he gets in to the HOF, but outside of Giants fans, people just do view him the same way as Giants fans (for the most part).
Some of it is just false perception, but also the flip side is maybe an over-weighting of two special 4-game runs that ended with titles.
Reality is though most reasonable people think to reach the HOF you should have:
1. titles
2. accolades
3. longevity
Romo achieves none. Some players like Marino or Kelly were so good in 2 and 3, they don't need 1.
Eli checks off all, but he's so polarizing because when the Giants haven't won the SB by all appearances he's no different than Stafford, Ryan, Romo, etc (or perhaps even worse than them), are the two titles enough to persuade voters otherwise and tip the scales in Eli's favor?
I think Eli and the HOF will be one of the most polarizing conversations, maybe less on BBI (a Giants fan site) but nationally I don't think he'll get the same support.
I hope he gets in, I certainly think he deserves it more than Romo (even if you give in and say Romo was a better QB for some portion of Romo's career - which is irrelevant) but not sure he'll get the national support.
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for Eli not to be in hall. But it also brings up questions that Bill James came up with when starting to think about a player. Was Eli ever considered the best player in the league? I think we can answer that as a solid No.
The more interesting question is whether Eli was ever considered the best player on his team. The only year I think he might be considered is 2009. I think Plax was better than him in 2008 until he shot himself. Eli Manning’s career isn’t worthy of the football Hall of Fame - ( New Window )
2011 he absolutely carried that offense, especially in the post season run.
Maybe. JPP had 16.5 sacks and two forced fumbles and a blocked field goal that year, so you could make an argument for him too.
Yes. When was he?
Should a player in the hall of fame be considered the best player in the league at some point during his career? I think it makes some sense. Why not?
No, they're not. Winning teams do certain things well, consistently. These things can be measured. A team with a great offense has a quarterback that does certain things well, consistently. These things can be measured.
I’ll take Eli and not just Eli over Romo, I’ll take Eli over anyone. In the big game, and Eli’s won the biggest game against the greatest team, TWICE, Eli delivers. Again, what is Romo’s signature play or his signature game?
And again, if the hall of fame rewards "big games" then Eli deserves to get in. If it rewards consistently great play, then he doesn't.
Best player on his team?
Ken Stabler?
George Blanda?
Fran Tarkenton?
Tarkenton didn't even win any SB's and compiled stats over 17 years.
I guess Blanda playing until he was Gordie Howe got him in.
But Eli has stats, titles and longevity and he's a no-go?
Any other criteria we should use to discredit and offset his SB wins?
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In comment 13851035 gmenatlarge said:
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Anyone who thinks that Namath doesn't belong in the HOF is totally clueless as to his career, don't just look at stats they can't compare to the modern era. Namath and Dawson changed the game from 3 yds and a cloud of dust to an aerial assault. And don't forget that this was back when QB's were actual football players who got hit hard and often e.g. Ben Davidson breaking Namath's jaw. Catch the HBO special on Namath if you want the real story, stats don't tell the whole story.
OK, I've gone through all of this before. I'll simply say this - when you compare Namath's numbers with his contemporaries, he clearly comes up short.
If you take away his ordinary SB versus the Colts, where the Colts gave them the game, then Namath is less impressive on paper than John Hadl.
First of all you don't just take away SB wins, much less maybe the greatest of all time which pretty much brought about the merger, yes there were two separate leagues before that.
Best player on his team?
Ken Stabler?
George Blanda?
Fran Tarkenton?
Tarkenton didn't even win any SB's and compiled stats over 17 years.
I guess Blanda playing until he was Gordie Howe got him in.
But Eli has stats, titles and longevity and he's a no-go?
Any other criteria we should use to discredit and offset his SB wins?
First of all, the hall of fame voters make mistakes all the time. It's a very subjective process. Secondly, the 'best player in the league' stuff is just something that Bill James suggested we take into consideration when judging whether a player should be considered for the Hall.
But Eli does not have the stats, as the original article linked proves. At least, he does not have stats that show he played consistently good enough for the hall of fame. He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.
But Eli does not have the stats, as the original article linked proves. At least, he does not have stats that show he played consistently good enough for the hall of fame. He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
Arent TDs and yards important as to trying to put points on the board? And if it so easy - why havent more people done it? I mean sure he has played a lot of games - but QBs who tend to play a lot and throw a lot of yards and TDs - tend to be, you know - pretty good QBs.
I was thinking the sports writers angle. I'd love to know the distribution - geographically - of voters. My guess there is a lot of anti-Pats sentiment, for a variety of reasons (the way they treat the press, allegations of foul play, etc), and will like that Eli slayed that dragon twice.
I agree that Eli's resume has holes. To me, significant holes.
This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.
So 11th best in one cherry picked statistic is enough to get him in? Was he at all responsible for the Giants being behind in the first place? Here's another good article that makes the case he doesn't belong in the Hall. The money quote, for me:
Eli Manning is Profoundly Mediocre - ( New Window )
This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.
How about breaking the record for 4th quarter TD passes in 2011, on that note, previously held in a tie by Unitas and Peyton.
Back to my original point on the original article which was also stat based “analysis” , Romo, who apparently is somehow statistically better than Eli is not nearly as good an NFL QB simply for the reasons that he wasn’t good in big games, he didn’t manage to stay healthy and he never got close to wining a Super Bowl. In all key elements of being a great NFL QB Tony Romo consistenlty failed. It was the same thing with Romo’s golf game which for years was gauged by the media as being PGA worthy. When Romo went to qualify for his Tour card, whoops, guess he wasn’t that good. Romo is the personification of media hype and stat compiling. The only QB I can think of who’s more overrated than Romo is Kurt Warner.
On the other hand, we have the “statistically mediocre” Eli who has been essential to two epic Super Bowl championships felling lengendary teams in legendary games with legendary plays and he’s started 222 consecutive games. Even two seasons ago, Eli’s last playoff game, Eli came to play and while he could t pull his team through that game to a victory, he rose up and played his best football of the season in the biggest game. He belongs in the HOF.
Money on the table, one big game to win on the biggest stage with all the pressure, what NFL QB do you want? As a Giants fan, I’ll take Eli and I’ll feel pretty darn good about my chances because, you know, he’s already done it twice
Things that make you go hmmmm.
I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?
The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.
But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.
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not to look at stats to judge Eli when they think he is medicore.... but yet show stats that prove that he is.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?
The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.
But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.
Oh, and by the way: I am a season ticket holder, go to every game, and generally wear my Eli jersey. I am a fan. But I can also be objective. It's not that hard.
There’s plenty of reasons why he should go to the hall of fame. You seem to gloss over those and thats your prerogative, but I think they mater a lot more than you think they do.
However, I would be surprised if he did not get in.
Yes, I am in that camp. I think there is clear separation between the two.
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not to look at stats to judge Eli when they think he is medicore.... but yet show stats that prove that he is.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?
The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.
But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.
When using stat to judge how a player plays tends to be misleading. I can cherry pick stats too. The point is for 14 years now, he has been deemed good enough to start for an NFL franchise. He has thrown for the 8th most TDs in history and 7th most yards. If use team stats as far as rushing and defense go - he has played with some of the WORST units in the NFL for multiple years.
He never had the luxury of playing in a dome or in warm weather.
The goal of each player isnt to put up the best stats. Some players it is. Taking sacks or not risking throws to ensure their completion percentage and INT totals stay at commendable numbers. But if you take away...
brady
peyton
Rodgers
3 of the greatest players at their position...
You then have the likes of Brees - who is a stats machine, but has been to the playoffs ONE more time than Eli in his career in more years.
Roethlisberger who has more clunkers in big games than Eli and has played with more talent on offense AND defense than probably anyone in history not names Joe Montana - and his numbers and rings are virtually identical.
After those 5 who really stands out more than Eli?
Wilson? - Easy argument that he has been carried more by his surrounding cast than him.
Luck? - injuries have slowed that.
Staffrd? - really?
Ryan? - Laughable
Cam? - will always be a better runner than thrower.
For the past 5 years, the Giants team has been miserable outside 2016. Eli has not played well in all of those years, but he was way better than average in 2014 and 2015. He slipped a bit in 2016 - but still threw for 26 TDs and led us to double digit wins.
And dont give me he has an edge cause he plays in NY or as others say he has an edge because he is a Manning. Those two things have put even a BIGGER spotlight on him - and he produces year after year after year.
So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.
So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
Or Drew Brees? People always talk about how great Brees is, and he is great, but he plays almost all his games indoors or in good weather. Does that matter? Big and Brees are always said to be locks for HOF but I don’t see how either is demonstratively better than Eli.
I’ve never been big on rewarding health. Don’t get me wrong, there is value in being able to show up time and time again. And Eli has played for a long time. But so did his brother, Favre, and Brady. And they have maintained a level of excellence that Eli can’t sniff.
So I’d rather reward excellence instead of longevity when it comes to this individual awards like the Hall of Fame. I’m glad that players like Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis got rewarded for their excellence and not dinged for the lack of longevity. I hope that same courtesy is extended to Sterling Sharpe on day because he was one of the most prolific receivers I ever saw...His seven years playing receiver are as good as anyone who walked this planet.
Excellence over longevity...that’s the formula.
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Or Drew Brees? People always talk about how great Brees is, and he is great, but he plays almost all his games indoors or in good weather. Does that matter? Big and Brees are always said to be locks for HOF but I don’t see how either is demonstratively better than Eli.
Yes, indoors is a factor. But indoors doesn't make you taller or bigger. Brees is shorter than Eli by 4 iches.
Sorry, but Brees is the superior QB to Eli, and that's not even close...
He’s been abnormally durable and dependable, and had 2 excellent playoff runs capped off by 2 Lombardi’s in addition to the stats he’s compiled over his career. I don’t see how he doesn’t get in.
He’s been abnormally durable and dependable, and had 2 excellent playoff runs capped off by 2 Lombardi’s in addition to the stats he’s compiled over his career. I don’t see how he doesn’t get in.
IMO, it's disingenuous to dismiss Eli's stats "because he played lots of games". He played lots of games for a reason.
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He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.
So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.
Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.
Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.
We can both play this game.
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You're the one that diminished the importance of the traditional stats with:
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He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.
So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.
Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.
Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.
it could be argued Eli has accomplished as much if not more with less talent surrounding him. Ben has always played with superior run games and defense which have a heavy influence on every stat you brought up.
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In comment 13852232 RinR said:
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You're the one that diminished the importance of the traditional stats with:
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He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.
So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.
Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.
Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.
it could be argued Eli has accomplished as much if not more with less talent surrounding him. Ben has always played with superior run games and defense which have a heavy influence on every stat you brought up.
We can both play this game.
Well, you know none of those things are statistics, so I would argue we are not 'playing the same game.' They are subjective observations, which is fine. But they aren't a statistical review of a player's performance.
And let's not forget, Eli did not have a great game statistically in the first super bowl. His defense did.
A lot of these unfortunately got hurt. Beckham still hasnt played with a legitimate 2nd threat yet. For as great as Jacobs/bradshaw were- they were rotational RBs and nowhere NEAR the same as Leveon Bell. Eli never had a Heath Miller for his entire career. Or multiple pro bowl lineman. 2006-2008 our OL was very good. Ben has had that just about every year he has played. For as great as Snee was, he was no Mike Pouncey. Or Alan Faneca.
I think both should get in.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Eli wouldn't be a HOF'er if not for the rings.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
I think both should get in.
I'm not so sure Eli is more prolific on the big stage than BR. Roeth had a pretty clutch throw to Santonio Holmes to to beat AZ in the SB...for example.
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Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?
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In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:
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Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?
The 12 because those are the games that matter most.
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I think Ben's a better QB (marginally), but Eli was a greater driver in his teams championships.
I think both should get in.
I'm not so sure Eli is more prolific on the big stage than BR. Roeth had a pretty clutch throw to Santonio Holmes to to beat AZ in the SB...for example.
I think everyone agrees that Ben is a great player and a HOF. But the difference between he and Eli is who has played around them.
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I think Ben's a better QB (marginally), but Eli was a greater driver in his teams championships.
I think both should get in.
I'm not so sure Eli is more prolific on the big stage than BR. Roeth had a pretty clutch throw to Santonio Holmes to to beat AZ in the SB...for example.
Roethlisberger has I believe by far the worst passing line of a SB winning QB in NFL history.
9 for 21 123 yards 0 TD's and 2 INTs in the SB vs Seattle.
and his team won
Eli has a higher QB Rating than Ben in the playoffs. I think Eli is one of the few QB's in the NFL whose QB rating in the post-season is higher than the regular season.
He is a very average regular season QB. Not a special arm talent, below average in accuracy for a modern QB. He is as unathletic as anyone I have ever seen play the position. It is almost like he is bored in the regular season. He is a real student of the game. From the neck up, he is as good as anyone. We use a lot of subjective evidence to make him one the greats. I don’t blame anyone for that. I feel like Brees and Big Ben are clearly better QBs. I don’t think either one of them could have led the Giants to those SB victories over the Patriots, they lose both games in my mind. I don’t think they even make it through the playoffs those years. It’s weird.
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In comment 13852456 dep026 said:
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In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:
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Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?
The 12 because those are the games that matter most.
Got it. So Eli is the better player, because despite outplaying him over 200+ games or so, Eli barely outplayed him in 12 because "those are the ones that matter." Does it occur to you that in order to get to those 12 games, teams have to play well over the regular season? Or to put it another way, if Eli had played as well as a hall of famer, he would have played in more than 12 playoff games?
He is a very average regular season QB. Not a special arm talent, below average in accuracy for a modern QB. He is as unathletic as anyone I have ever seen play the position. It is almost like he is bored in the regular season. He is a real student of the game. From the neck up, he is as good as anyone. We use a lot of subjective evidence to make him one the greats. I don’t blame anyone for that. I feel like Brees and Big Ben are clearly better QBs. I don’t think either one of them could have led the Giants to those SB victories over the Patriots, they lose both games in my mind. I don’t think they even make it through the playoffs those years. It’s weird.
When comparing all these QBs, it should be noted that I think all of them are very good. So knocking them isnt taking away from what they have done though.
Here's a test. Put Eli in NO with Payton for his career - you think his numbers improve? And do Brees suffer while playing in NY? Fun speculation.
You think Eli would win less/more SBs with all the talent Ben had to play within his career. It's interesting nonetheless.
There are so many historical precedents that has made Eli's inclusion in the HoF certain.
You'd have to claim about a dozen QB's don't belong to keep Eli out, and that isn't going to happen. The guy is a 2 time SB MVP and will finish in the top 5 of nearly every passing category.
But voters just make bad choices....
Pat Shurmur and the Giants: Simple Complexity and Changing the Conversation - ( New Window )
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rewarding health. It’s part of a resume, just like anything else. How much you want to weigh it is debatable but to simply say you’d rather have excellence is completely ignoring longevity. It’s not and either/or scenario.
I don't have a problem citing longevity. But it can't be part of the lead. In the business world, longevity gets recognized with a pen, a watch, or maybe a plaque. But you don't get a huge bonus for always punching in...
There are so many historical precedents that has made Eli's inclusion in the HoF certain.
You'd have to claim about a dozen QB's don't belong to keep Eli out, and that isn't going to happen. The guy is a 2 time SB MVP and will finish in the top 5 of nearly every passing category.
But voters just make bad choices....
None of those guys played as recently as 40 years ago. Were they much better than their peers? Their numbers may look crappy now, but how do they look for the era in which they played? You tell me, you brought them up.
The point is, things are changing in the way sportswriters judge players. More advanced statistics are being used, correctly, to compare one player over another. My argument is that using these statistics, Eli is an average player compared to his contemporaries and therefore should not be in the hall of fame. You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
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when I brought up Griese, Blanda, Stabler and Tarkenton, the response was "voters make bad choices". Those guys are a mixture of stat compilers and winners.
There are so many historical precedents that has made Eli's inclusion in the HoF certain.
You'd have to claim about a dozen QB's don't belong to keep Eli out, and that isn't going to happen. The guy is a 2 time SB MVP and will finish in the top 5 of nearly every passing category.
But voters just make bad choices....
None of those guys played as recently as 40 years ago. Were they much better than their peers? Their numbers may look crappy now, but how do they look for the era in which they played? You tell me, you brought them up.
The point is, things are changing in the way sportswriters judge players. More advanced statistics are being used, correctly, to compare one player over another. My argument is that using these statistics, Eli is an average player compared to his contemporaries and therefore should not be in the hall of fame. You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
Eli to Manningham - ( New Window )
But voters just make bad choices....
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But voters just make bad choices....
understatement of the decade.
I think everyone agrees that Ben is a great player and a HOF. But the difference between he and Eli is who has played around them.
This is the same bullsh-t I used to hear about the Elway to Marino to Montana to Aikman to etc arguments. Great players make other players around them better. Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps that is what's been going on in Pittsburgh for the BR Era? That he had the qualities to make others perform at a higher level?
You know, that thing that franchise QBs do...
I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??
Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.
That isn't being dumb - it is being logical
1. How he performs now as he closes out his career.
2. Votes from writers in other cities. Remember, Carson barely got in and he was a better LB than Eli is a QB.
Although I think it is a close call, the people who say that Eli should not be in the discussion are absolutely ridiculous AND of some of those people have a vote, then that right there should diminish the legitimacy of the HOF induction process.
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You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??
Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.
That isn't being dumb - it is being logical
I know fome fans think only the greatest player of each generation gets in but that simply isn’t true. Just because you have a debate doesn’t mean the player doesn’t deserve it.
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You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??
Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.
That isn't being dumb - it is being logical
I don't think Eli is quite the slam dunk HOF candidate that some here believe, although I do think he will ultimately get in. What will make his case interesting is that there is a counterpoint for every positive point in his favor:
Top five in all or most passing categories? Yes, but also will have led the NFL in interceptions and turnovers for the entirety of his career, and (perhaps more significantly) the rest of the top five in passing yards, TDs, etc. will likely be comprised of his contemporaries by the time he's up for consideration, which will underscore the evolution of the game into a passing league.
Two SB victories and SB MVPs? Yes, but no postseason wins in any other season, and no postseason appearances in more than half of his seasons. And two SB victories alone hasn't been enough to get Jim Plunkett into the HOF.
Historic consecutive games streak? Yes, but also a W/L record that is hovering around .500 (and could end up below .500 depending on how the team does this season and next).
We, as Giants fans, will naturally appreciate the positive points and have a different understanding of the context surrounding some of the counterpoints. But not every voter will have the same appreciation of Eli's career in general. He likely won't get much (or any) credit for his handling of the media in NYC for his career. He may be unfairly compared to his own brother simply due to his last name. There will be seemingly compelling arguments against his enshrinement.
Does Eli deserve to get into the HOF? Yes, IMO. But that doesn't mean his case will be an obvious or simple one when the time comes.
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are just being dense.
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You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??
Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.
That isn't being dumb - it is being logical
I don't think Eli is quite the slam dunk HOF candidate that some here believe, although I do think he will ultimately get in. What will make his case interesting is that there is a counterpoint for every positive point in his favor:
Top five in all or most passing categories? Yes, but also will have led the NFL in interceptions and turnovers for the entirety of his career, and (perhaps more significantly) the rest of the top five in passing yards, TDs, etc. will likely be comprised of his contemporaries by the time he's up for consideration, which will underscore the evolution of the game into a passing league.
Look at the top 15 players all time in INT's:
1 Brett Favre+ 336 1991-2010 4TM
2 George Blanda+ 277 1949-1975 4TM
3 John Hadl 268 1962-1977 4TM
4 Vinny Testaverde 267 1987-2007 7TM
5 Fran Tarkenton+ 266 1961-1978 2TM
6 Norm Snead 257 1961-1976 5TM
7 Johnny Unitas+ 253 1956-1973 2TM
8 Dan Marino+ 252 1983-1999 mia
9 Peyton Manning 251 1998-2015 2TM
10 Y.A. Tittle+ 248 1948-1964 3TM
11 Jim Hart 247 1966-1984 2TM
12 Bobby Layne+ 243 1948-1962 4TM
13 Dan Fouts+ 242 1973-1987 sdg
14 Warren Moon+ 233 1984-2000 4TM
15 Drew Brees 228 2001-2017 2TM
Eli Manning 228 2004-2017 nyg
I see a lot of HOF's on that list.
While Eli will finish in the Top 5-10 in all passing categories all time, Jim Plunkett is in the 60's-70's. Eli has the Hardware AND the stats. Plunkett doesn't.
If you look at it by win percentage, then yes. If you look at it by career wins, Eli has won the 12th most games of any QB ever. All 11 guys ahead of him are in the HOF.
[quote]We, as Giants fans, will naturally appreciate the positive points and have a different understanding of the context surrounding some of the counterpoints. But not every voter will have the same appreciation of Eli's career in general. He likely won't get much (or any) credit for his handling of the media in NYC for his career. He may be unfairly compared to his own brother simply due to his last name. There will be seemingly compelling arguments against his enshrinement.
Does Eli deserve to get into the HOF? Yes, IMO. But that doesn't mean his case will be an obvious or simple one when the time comes.
He may not be first ballot, but he checks every box and will eventually get in.
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If you look at it by win percentage, then yes. If you look at it by career wins, Eli has won the 12th most games of any QB ever. All 11 guys ahead of him are in the HOF.
Britt, I agree that he'll get in. I don't think you can parse career wins while ignoring winning percentage; more to the point, I don't think that HOF voters will separate one from the other.
As for your point about the stats and the hardware, my point was that the stats won't matter as much in terms of historical significance because of the passing explosion in this era. It's basically like HR stats in baseball.
Like I said though, I do believe Eli will get in, and deservedly so. I'm just trying to be objective about what the negative points will likely be when he's up for consideration.
If you don't think that will come up in consideration for Eli's HOF candidacy, you're kidding yourself, regardless of whether you think those that might consider it a factor are "f*cking morons" or not.
While he appears to be universally well regarded by the people that know him, there are many voters that still think of him as Peyton's little brother and the guy that spurned San Diego. I don't think his image has ever fully gotten over that.
Personally I feel very strongly that he's a better player than some quarterbacks that are already in the HOF, but there are a lot of people that don't agree.
In a vacuum, you're probably right. Considering how Eli's resume in general contains a lot of very high highs but also some legitimate blemishes, I absolutely think they'll care. And you're being biased by framing it as "hasn't won his 9th playoff game" when the context is just as accurate by saying, in 12 of 14 seasons (or 13 of 15, or 14 of 16, whatever, potentially), Eli's team did not advance at all in the playoffs. And it will be underscored by his team missing the playoffs in 8 of 14 seasons (or potentially 9 of 15, 10 of 16, etc.).
Maybe I'm just being a debbie downer about it, but I genuinely think it will be a factor. Not something that keeps him out of the HOF by any stretch, but I think it's a little bit polyannish to suggest that it won't be considered at all by voters. They should consider it, IMO. It's part of his resume, and they should consider his entire resume, and that entire resume will still get him into the HOF.
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You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??
Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.
That isn't being dumb - it is being logical
AGAIN, his "top 5 in all stats" is a function of his longevity, not his play. Putting him in the hall of fame would be rewarding an average player who managed to play a long time because his team won championships while he was there and the Giants never considered another option. No one disputes that his percentage stats are average. He is an average player.
So why should we believe that voters hate Eli but not believe they feel strongly about his iron man streak? And all of that doesn’t factor in 2 of the best title runs he sport has ever seen, as well as stat totals both good and bad.
While he appears to be universally well regarded by the people that know him, there are many voters that still think of him as Peyton's little brother and the guy that spurned San Diego. I don't think his image has ever fully gotten over that.
So why should we believe that voters hate Eli but not believe they feel strongly about his iron man streak? And all of that doesn’t factor in 2 of the best title runs he sport has ever seen, as well as stat totals both good and bad.
The longevity streak is impressive, but it's largely a matter of luck. He's lucky he didn't bang his hand on a helmet, or twist his knee the wrong way, or any of the other numerous ways players can get hurt. Ask yourself, what has Eli done to avoid injury that every other quarterback that has gotten hurt does not?
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In comment 13852771 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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are just being dense.
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You use whatever criteria you want, but don't try and convince me that because some other player is in the hall of fame, Eli should be too. That's dumb.
I pointed out 2 SB MVP's and that eli will be in the top 5 of almost every stat, but you said that isn't the "right way" to look at stats. When I pointed out several QB's in the HoF for a mixture of stat compiling and being victorious, now that's not valid either because they played 40 years ago??
Eli has all the bases covered. If you are looking for career stats he has them. Titles. He has them. Historically significant wins? Yep.
That isn't being dumb - it is being logical
I don't think Eli is quite the slam dunk HOF candidate that some here believe, although I do think he will ultimately get in. What will make his case interesting is that there is a counterpoint for every positive point in his favor:
Top five in all or most passing categories? Yes, but also will have led the NFL in interceptions and turnovers for the entirety of his career, and (perhaps more significantly) the rest of the top five in passing yards, TDs, etc. will likely be comprised of his contemporaries by the time he's up for consideration, which will underscore the evolution of the game into a passing league.
Look at the top 15 players all time in INT's:
1 Brett Favre+ 336 1991-2010 4TM
2 George Blanda+ 277 1949-1975 4TM
3 John Hadl 268 1962-1977 4TM
4 Vinny Testaverde 267 1987-2007 7TM
5 Fran Tarkenton+ 266 1961-1978 2TM
6 Norm Snead 257 1961-1976 5TM
7 Johnny Unitas+ 253 1956-1973 2TM
8 Dan Marino+ 252 1983-1999 mia
9 Peyton Manning 251 1998-2015 2TM
10 Y.A. Tittle+ 248 1948-1964 3TM
11 Jim Hart 247 1966-1984 2TM
12 Bobby Layne+ 243 1948-1962 4TM
13 Dan Fouts+ 242 1973-1987 sdg
14 Warren Moon+ 233 1984-2000 4TM
15 Drew Brees 228 2001-2017 2TM
Eli Manning 228 2004-2017 nyg
I see a lot of HOF's on that list.
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Two SB victories and SB MVPs? Yes, but no postseason wins in any other season, and no postseason appearances in more than half of his seasons. And two SB victories alone hasn't been enough to get Jim Plunkett into the HOF.
While Eli will finish in the Top 5-10 in all passing categories all time, Jim Plunkett is in the 60's-70's. Eli has the Hardware AND the stats. Plunkett doesn't.
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Historic consecutive games streak? Yes, but also a W/L record that is hovering around .500 (and could end up below .500 depending on how the team does this season and next).
If you look at it by win percentage, then yes. If you look at it by career wins, Eli has won the 12th most games of any QB ever. All 11 guys ahead of him are in the HOF.
[quote]We, as Giants fans, will naturally appreciate the positive points and have a different understanding of the context surrounding some of the counterpoints. But not every voter will have the same appreciation of Eli's career in general. He likely won't get much (or any) credit for his handling of the media in NYC for his career. He may be unfairly compared to his own brother simply due to his last name. There will be seemingly compelling arguments against his enshrinement.
Does Eli deserve to get into the HOF? Yes, IMO. But that doesn't mean his case will be an obvious or simple one when the time comes.
He may not be first ballot, but he checks every box and will eventually get in.
As far as consistently excellent, that didn't keep Kurt Warner out. His stats were very inconsistent, even worse than Eli's in many regards on a season to season basis.
As far as consistently excellent, that didn't keep Kurt Warner out. His stats were very inconsistent, even worse than Eli's in many regards on a season to season basis.
Warner should not be in the HoF. I think the rags to riches narrative (bagging groceries, Arena League, etc) are big for the bleeding hearts on the voting committee.
But he was better than Eli. His best seasons crush Eli, and he led two different franchises to the SB. Was really good in the playoffs as well...
65%, 41tds, 13ints, 4350 yards, 109 QB Rating, MVP.
Which season by Eli is comparable?
Will he get 25 of 32 votes for the hall? I'm not willing to go all in on that bet. When you see articles like Eli is voted the most overrated QB in the league and anonymous scouts describing Eli as belonging in the second tier of QBs (below the Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, Brees of the world) it's not clear that people associate him with the hall of fame.
Brad Johnson Trent Dilfer and Nick Foles also played well in the post season and won super bowls and they are not going to the hall.
Eli has won 2 and was MVP. Add the career stats and he'll get in. This argument isn't whether he is first ballot or not.
Again - Griese, Stabler and Blanda are in.
And two, it would reduce the frequency of these threads...
Eli has won 2 and was MVP. Add the career stats and he'll get in. This argument isn't whether he is first ballot or not.
Again - Griese, Stabler and Blanda are in.
FWIW...Griese was a 6X Pro Bowl selection and a 2X All Pro...and an MVP.