I think it’s absurd to even consider Tony Romo for the HOF. But before the writer of this article essentially agrees, he takes more than a few shots at Eli and concludes:
Eli Manning is clearly not of the same quality as the other players on this list. I have never seriously considered him a legitimate HOF candidate. He’ll probably elicit serious consideration simply because of two Super Bowl wins (and MVPs) and... well, New York. But by any objective measure he’s not the same caliber quarterback as the other names on this list, including Tony Romo. |
I know it’s a Cowpukes blog but how does anyone say they’re “okay” with Kurt Warner being in the HOF but Eli does not belong? And how does anyone consider Romo to have been a better QB than Eli? I hate to give this guy the clicks.
Making, and breaking, the case for Tony Romo and the Hall of Fame - Blogging The Boys - (
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Quick, answer me this: money on the table, one big game for all the marbles, the whole megillah, and you’re taking which NFL QB? Romo?
I’ll take Eli and not just Eli over Romo, I’ll take Eli over anyone. In the big game, and Eli’s won the biggest game against the greatest team, TWICE, Eli delivers. Again, what is Romo’s signature play or his signature game?
Has any QB made the HOF having only won a playoff game in two seasons?
Is there a QB in the HOF with as many losses as Eli?
Eli has had a strange career. I hope he gets in to the HOF, but outside of Giants fans, people just do view him the same way as Giants fans (for the most part).
Some of it is just false perception, but also the flip side is maybe an over-weighting of two special 4-game runs that ended with titles.
Reality is though most reasonable people think to reach the HOF you should have:
1. titles
2. accolades
3. longevity
Romo achieves none. Some players like Marino or Kelly were so good in 2 and 3, they don't need 1.
Eli checks off all, but he's so polarizing because when the Giants haven't won the SB by all appearances he's no different than Stafford, Ryan, Romo, etc (or perhaps even worse than them), are the two titles enough to persuade voters otherwise and tip the scales in Eli's favor?
I think Eli and the HOF will be one of the most polarizing conversations, maybe less on BBI (a Giants fan site) but nationally I don't think he'll get the same support.
I hope he gets in, I certainly think he deserves it more than Romo (even if you give in and say Romo was a better QB for some portion of Romo's career - which is irrelevant) but not sure he'll get the national support.
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for Eli not to be in hall. But it also brings up questions that Bill James came up with when starting to think about a player. Was Eli ever considered the best player in the league? I think we can answer that as a solid No.
The more interesting question is whether Eli was ever considered the best player on his team. The only year I think he might be considered is 2009. I think Plax was better than him in 2008 until he shot himself. Eli Manning’s career isn’t worthy of the football Hall of Fame - ( New Window )
2011 he absolutely carried that offense, especially in the post season run.
Maybe. JPP had 16.5 sacks and two forced fumbles and a blocked field goal that year, so you could make an argument for him too.
Yes. When was he?
Should a player in the hall of fame be considered the best player in the league at some point during his career? I think it makes some sense. Why not?
No, they're not. Winning teams do certain things well, consistently. These things can be measured. A team with a great offense has a quarterback that does certain things well, consistently. These things can be measured.
I’ll take Eli and not just Eli over Romo, I’ll take Eli over anyone. In the big game, and Eli’s won the biggest game against the greatest team, TWICE, Eli delivers. Again, what is Romo’s signature play or his signature game?
And again, if the hall of fame rewards "big games" then Eli deserves to get in. If it rewards consistently great play, then he doesn't.
Best player on his team?
Ken Stabler?
George Blanda?
Fran Tarkenton?
Tarkenton didn't even win any SB's and compiled stats over 17 years.
I guess Blanda playing until he was Gordie Howe got him in.
But Eli has stats, titles and longevity and he's a no-go?
Any other criteria we should use to discredit and offset his SB wins?
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In comment 13851035 gmenatlarge said:
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Anyone who thinks that Namath doesn't belong in the HOF is totally clueless as to his career, don't just look at stats they can't compare to the modern era. Namath and Dawson changed the game from 3 yds and a cloud of dust to an aerial assault. And don't forget that this was back when QB's were actual football players who got hit hard and often e.g. Ben Davidson breaking Namath's jaw. Catch the HBO special on Namath if you want the real story, stats don't tell the whole story.
OK, I've gone through all of this before. I'll simply say this - when you compare Namath's numbers with his contemporaries, he clearly comes up short.
If you take away his ordinary SB versus the Colts, where the Colts gave them the game, then Namath is less impressive on paper than John Hadl.
First of all you don't just take away SB wins, much less maybe the greatest of all time which pretty much brought about the merger, yes there were two separate leagues before that.
Best player on his team?
Ken Stabler?
George Blanda?
Fran Tarkenton?
Tarkenton didn't even win any SB's and compiled stats over 17 years.
I guess Blanda playing until he was Gordie Howe got him in.
But Eli has stats, titles and longevity and he's a no-go?
Any other criteria we should use to discredit and offset his SB wins?
First of all, the hall of fame voters make mistakes all the time. It's a very subjective process. Secondly, the 'best player in the league' stuff is just something that Bill James suggested we take into consideration when judging whether a player should be considered for the Hall.
But Eli does not have the stats, as the original article linked proves. At least, he does not have stats that show he played consistently good enough for the hall of fame. He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.
But Eli does not have the stats, as the original article linked proves. At least, he does not have stats that show he played consistently good enough for the hall of fame. He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
Arent TDs and yards important as to trying to put points on the board? And if it so easy - why havent more people done it? I mean sure he has played a lot of games - but QBs who tend to play a lot and throw a lot of yards and TDs - tend to be, you know - pretty good QBs.
I was thinking the sports writers angle. I'd love to know the distribution - geographically - of voters. My guess there is a lot of anti-Pats sentiment, for a variety of reasons (the way they treat the press, allegations of foul play, etc), and will like that Eli slayed that dragon twice.
I agree that Eli's resume has holes. To me, significant holes.
This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.
So 11th best in one cherry picked statistic is enough to get him in? Was he at all responsible for the Giants being behind in the first place? Here's another good article that makes the case he doesn't belong in the Hall. The money quote, for me:
Eli Manning is Profoundly Mediocre - ( New Window )
This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.
How about breaking the record for 4th quarter TD passes in 2011, on that note, previously held in a tie by Unitas and Peyton.
Back to my original point on the original article which was also stat based “analysis” , Romo, who apparently is somehow statistically better than Eli is not nearly as good an NFL QB simply for the reasons that he wasn’t good in big games, he didn’t manage to stay healthy and he never got close to wining a Super Bowl. In all key elements of being a great NFL QB Tony Romo consistenlty failed. It was the same thing with Romo’s golf game which for years was gauged by the media as being PGA worthy. When Romo went to qualify for his Tour card, whoops, guess he wasn’t that good. Romo is the personification of media hype and stat compiling. The only QB I can think of who’s more overrated than Romo is Kurt Warner.
On the other hand, we have the “statistically mediocre” Eli who has been essential to two epic Super Bowl championships felling lengendary teams in legendary games with legendary plays and he’s started 222 consecutive games. Even two seasons ago, Eli’s last playoff game, Eli came to play and while he could t pull his team through that game to a victory, he rose up and played his best football of the season in the biggest game. He belongs in the HOF.
Money on the table, one big game to win on the biggest stage with all the pressure, what NFL QB do you want? As a Giants fan, I’ll take Eli and I’ll feel pretty darn good about my chances because, you know, he’s already done it twice
Things that make you go hmmmm.
I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?
The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.
But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.
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not to look at stats to judge Eli when they think he is medicore.... but yet show stats that prove that he is.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?
The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.
But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.
Oh, and by the way: I am a season ticket holder, go to every game, and generally wear my Eli jersey. I am a fan. But I can also be objective. It's not that hard.
There’s plenty of reasons why he should go to the hall of fame. You seem to gloss over those and thats your prerogative, but I think they mater a lot more than you think they do.
However, I would be surprised if he did not get in.
Yes, I am in that camp. I think there is clear separation between the two.
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not to look at stats to judge Eli when they think he is medicore.... but yet show stats that prove that he is.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?
The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.
But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.
When using stat to judge how a player plays tends to be misleading. I can cherry pick stats too. The point is for 14 years now, he has been deemed good enough to start for an NFL franchise. He has thrown for the 8th most TDs in history and 7th most yards. If use team stats as far as rushing and defense go - he has played with some of the WORST units in the NFL for multiple years.
He never had the luxury of playing in a dome or in warm weather.
The goal of each player isnt to put up the best stats. Some players it is. Taking sacks or not risking throws to ensure their completion percentage and INT totals stay at commendable numbers. But if you take away...
brady
peyton
Rodgers
3 of the greatest players at their position...
You then have the likes of Brees - who is a stats machine, but has been to the playoffs ONE more time than Eli in his career in more years.
Roethlisberger who has more clunkers in big games than Eli and has played with more talent on offense AND defense than probably anyone in history not names Joe Montana - and his numbers and rings are virtually identical.
After those 5 who really stands out more than Eli?
Wilson? - Easy argument that he has been carried more by his surrounding cast than him.
Luck? - injuries have slowed that.
Staffrd? - really?
Ryan? - Laughable
Cam? - will always be a better runner than thrower.
For the past 5 years, the Giants team has been miserable outside 2016. Eli has not played well in all of those years, but he was way better than average in 2014 and 2015. He slipped a bit in 2016 - but still threw for 26 TDs and led us to double digit wins.
And dont give me he has an edge cause he plays in NY or as others say he has an edge because he is a Manning. Those two things have put even a BIGGER spotlight on him - and he produces year after year after year.
So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.
So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
Or Drew Brees? People always talk about how great Brees is, and he is great, but he plays almost all his games indoors or in good weather. Does that matter? Big and Brees are always said to be locks for HOF but I don’t see how either is demonstratively better than Eli.
I’ve never been big on rewarding health. Don’t get me wrong, there is value in being able to show up time and time again. And Eli has played for a long time. But so did his brother, Favre, and Brady. And they have maintained a level of excellence that Eli can’t sniff.
So I’d rather reward excellence instead of longevity when it comes to this individual awards like the Hall of Fame. I’m glad that players like Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis got rewarded for their excellence and not dinged for the lack of longevity. I hope that same courtesy is extended to Sterling Sharpe on day because he was one of the most prolific receivers I ever saw...His seven years playing receiver are as good as anyone who walked this planet.
Excellence over longevity...that’s the formula.
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Or Drew Brees? People always talk about how great Brees is, and he is great, but he plays almost all his games indoors or in good weather. Does that matter? Big and Brees are always said to be locks for HOF but I don’t see how either is demonstratively better than Eli.
Yes, indoors is a factor. But indoors doesn't make you taller or bigger. Brees is shorter than Eli by 4 iches.
Sorry, but Brees is the superior QB to Eli, and that's not even close...
He’s been abnormally durable and dependable, and had 2 excellent playoff runs capped off by 2 Lombardi’s in addition to the stats he’s compiled over his career. I don’t see how he doesn’t get in.
He’s been abnormally durable and dependable, and had 2 excellent playoff runs capped off by 2 Lombardi’s in addition to the stats he’s compiled over his career. I don’t see how he doesn’t get in.
IMO, it's disingenuous to dismiss Eli's stats "because he played lots of games". He played lots of games for a reason.
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He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.
So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.
Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.
Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.
We can both play this game.
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You're the one that diminished the importance of the traditional stats with:
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He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.
So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.
Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.
Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.
it could be argued Eli has accomplished as much if not more with less talent surrounding him. Ben has always played with superior run games and defense which have a heavy influence on every stat you brought up.
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In comment 13852232 RinR said:
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You're the one that diminished the importance of the traditional stats with:
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He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.
So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.
Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.
Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.
it could be argued Eli has accomplished as much if not more with less talent surrounding him. Ben has always played with superior run games and defense which have a heavy influence on every stat you brought up.
We can both play this game.
Well, you know none of those things are statistics, so I would argue we are not 'playing the same game.' They are subjective observations, which is fine. But they aren't a statistical review of a player's performance.
And let's not forget, Eli did not have a great game statistically in the first super bowl. His defense did.
A lot of these unfortunately got hurt. Beckham still hasnt played with a legitimate 2nd threat yet. For as great as Jacobs/bradshaw were- they were rotational RBs and nowhere NEAR the same as Leveon Bell. Eli never had a Heath Miller for his entire career. Or multiple pro bowl lineman. 2006-2008 our OL was very good. Ben has had that just about every year he has played. For as great as Snee was, he was no Mike Pouncey. Or Alan Faneca.
I think both should get in.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Eli wouldn't be a HOF'er if not for the rings.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
I think both should get in.
I'm not so sure Eli is more prolific on the big stage than BR. Roeth had a pretty clutch throw to Santonio Holmes to to beat AZ in the SB...for example.
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Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?
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In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:
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Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.
Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?
The 12 because those are the games that matter most.