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Tony Romo Hall of Fame? No, but he’s much better than Eli..

trueblueinpw : 3/3/2018 11:02 pm
I think it’s absurd to even consider Tony Romo for the HOF. But before the writer of this article essentially agrees, he takes more than a few shots at Eli and concludes:

Quote:
Eli Manning is clearly not of the same quality as the other players on this list. I have never seriously considered him a legitimate HOF candidate. He’ll probably elicit serious consideration simply because of two Super Bowl wins (and MVPs) and... well, New York. But by any objective measure he’s not the same caliber quarterback as the other names on this list, including Tony Romo.


I know it’s a Cowpukes blog but how does anyone say they’re “okay” with Kurt Warner being in the HOF but Eli does not belong? And how does anyone consider Romo to have been a better QB than Eli? I hate to give this guy the clicks.


Making, and breaking, the case for Tony Romo and the Hall of Fame - Blogging The Boys - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 3 4 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
OMG...  
trueblueinpw : 3/5/2018 3:45 pm : link
Was Eli ever the best player on the Giants? Is this a serious question? And the qualification for getting into the HOF is being the best player in the league? I don’t really understand that arguement. Also don’t understand by which measure anyone says Romo was a better QB than Eli. Stats are just so meaningless in pro football.

Quick, answer me this: money on the table, one big game for all the marbles, the whole megillah, and you’re taking which NFL QB? Romo?

I’ll take Eli and not just Eli over Romo, I’ll take Eli over anyone. In the big game, and Eli’s won the biggest game against the greatest team, TWICE, Eli delivers. Again, what is Romo’s signature play or his signature game?
Romo has 8 years worth of starts  
Heisenberg : 3/5/2018 3:52 pm : link
Has any QB every made it into the Hall with that few starts?
RE: Romo has 8 years worth of starts  
pjcas18 : 3/5/2018 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13851279 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
Has any QB every made it into the Hall with that few starts?


Has any QB made the HOF having only won a playoff game in two seasons?

Is there a QB in the HOF with as many losses as Eli?

Eli has had a strange career. I hope he gets in to the HOF, but outside of Giants fans, people just do view him the same way as Giants fans (for the most part).

Some of it is just false perception, but also the flip side is maybe an over-weighting of two special 4-game runs that ended with titles.

Reality is though most reasonable people think to reach the HOF you should have:

1. titles
2. accolades
3. longevity

Romo achieves none. Some players like Marino or Kelly were so good in 2 and 3, they don't need 1.

Eli checks off all, but he's so polarizing because when the Giants haven't won the SB by all appearances he's no different than Stafford, Ryan, Romo, etc (or perhaps even worse than them), are the two titles enough to persuade voters otherwise and tip the scales in Eli's favor?

I think Eli and the HOF will be one of the most polarizing conversations, maybe less on BBI (a Giants fan site) but nationally I don't think he'll get the same support.

I hope he gets in, I certainly think he deserves it more than Romo (even if you give in and say Romo was a better QB for some portion of Romo's career - which is irrelevant) but not sure he'll get the national support.

Romo will have to make it based on his  
Jimmy Googs : 3/5/2018 4:11 pm : link
broadcasting career...
RE: RE: Here's another article making the statistical case  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/5/2018 5:18 pm : link
In comment 13851261 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
In comment 13851239 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


for Eli not to be in hall. But it also brings up questions that Bill James came up with when starting to think about a player. Was Eli ever considered the best player in the league? I think we can answer that as a solid No.

The more interesting question is whether Eli was ever considered the best player on his team. The only year I think he might be considered is 2009. I think Plax was better than him in 2008 until he shot himself. Eli Manning’s career isn’t worthy of the football Hall of Fame - ( New Window )



2011 he absolutely carried that offense, especially in the post season run.


Maybe. JPP had 16.5 sacks and two forced fumbles and a blocked field goal that year, so you could make an argument for him too.
RE: OMG...  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/5/2018 5:23 pm : link
In comment 13851268 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
Was Eli ever the best player on the Giants? Is this a serious question?


Yes. When was he?

Quote:
And the qualification for getting into the HOF is being the best player in the league? I don’t really understand that arguement.


Should a player in the hall of fame be considered the best player in the league at some point during his career? I think it makes some sense. Why not?


Quote:
Also don’t understand by which measure anyone says Romo was a better QB than Eli. Stats are just so meaningless in pro football.


No, they're not. Winning teams do certain things well, consistently. These things can be measured. A team with a great offense has a quarterback that does certain things well, consistently. These things can be measured.

Quote:
Quick, answer me this: money on the table, one big game for all the marbles, the whole megillah, and you’re taking which NFL QB? Romo?

I’ll take Eli and not just Eli over Romo, I’ll take Eli over anyone. In the big game, and Eli’s won the biggest game against the greatest team, TWICE, Eli delivers. Again, what is Romo’s signature play or his signature game?


And again, if the hall of fame rewards "big games" then Eli deserves to get in. If it rewards consistently great play, then he doesn't.
Wait a minute...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/5/2018 9:40 pm : link
so Bob Griese was the best player in the NFL at some point?

Best player on his team?

Ken Stabler?

George Blanda?

Fran Tarkenton?

Tarkenton didn't even win any SB's and compiled stats over 17 years.

I guess Blanda playing until he was Gordie Howe got him in.

But Eli has stats, titles and longevity and he's a no-go?

Any other criteria we should use to discredit and offset his SB wins?
Eli is an all time New York Football Giant.  
Britt in VA : 3/6/2018 12:08 am : link
Arguably one of the greatest New York Giants. He's in the HOF. Period.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I think Namath and Warner are in for the same reason...  
gmenatlarge : 3/6/2018 8:52 am : link
In comment 13851121 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13851116 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 13851035 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


Anyone who thinks that Namath doesn't belong in the HOF is totally clueless as to his career, don't just look at stats they can't compare to the modern era. Namath and Dawson changed the game from 3 yds and a cloud of dust to an aerial assault. And don't forget that this was back when QB's were actual football players who got hit hard and often e.g. Ben Davidson breaking Namath's jaw. Catch the HBO special on Namath if you want the real story, stats don't tell the whole story.



OK, I've gone through all of this before. I'll simply say this - when you compare Namath's numbers with his contemporaries, he clearly comes up short.



If you take away his ordinary SB versus the Colts, where the Colts gave them the game, then Namath is less impressive on paper than John Hadl.


First of all you don't just take away SB wins, much less maybe the greatest of all time which pretty much brought about the merger, yes there were two separate leagues before that.
RE: Wait a minute...  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 10:22 am : link
In comment 13851565 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so Bob Griese was the best player in the NFL at some point?

Best player on his team?

Ken Stabler?

George Blanda?

Fran Tarkenton?

Tarkenton didn't even win any SB's and compiled stats over 17 years.

I guess Blanda playing until he was Gordie Howe got him in.

But Eli has stats, titles and longevity and he's a no-go?

Any other criteria we should use to discredit and offset his SB wins?


First of all, the hall of fame voters make mistakes all the time. It's a very subjective process. Secondly, the 'best player in the league' stuff is just something that Bill James suggested we take into consideration when judging whether a player should be considered for the Hall.

But Eli does not have the stats, as the original article linked proves. At least, he does not have stats that show he played consistently good enough for the hall of fame. He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.
How about 4th quarter comebacks?  
RinR : 3/6/2018 10:49 am : link
Is that a relevant enough, non-counting stat? He is currently tied for 11th all-time and the 10 ahead of him are either already in the HOF or will be one day (Brady, Big Ben, Brees).

This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.
RE: RE: Wait a minute...  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 10:51 am : link
In comment 13851909 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
a player should be considered for the Hall.

But Eli does not have the stats, as the original article linked proves. At least, he does not have stats that show he played consistently good enough for the hall of fame. He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.


Arent TDs and yards important as to trying to put points on the board? And if it so easy - why havent more people done it? I mean sure he has played a lot of games - but QBs who tend to play a lot and throw a lot of yards and TDs - tend to be, you know - pretty good QBs.
Eli will be in consideration for the HoF because  
Les in TO : 3/6/2018 11:20 am : link
of the super bowls. however, he is not a lock for admission. Is he going to receive 80% of the sports writers/committee's approval for inclusion? He is one of the most polarizing athletes of all time, including among sports writers, who ultimately will get to make that call, notwithstanding what fans or haters think.
RE: Eli will be in consideration for the HoF because  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 11:35 am : link
In comment 13851986 Les in TO said:
Quote:
of the super bowls. however, he is not a lock for admission. Is he going to receive 80% of the sports writers/committee's approval for inclusion? He is one of the most polarizing athletes of all time, including among sports writers, who ultimately will get to make that call, notwithstanding what fans or haters think.


I was thinking the sports writers angle. I'd love to know the distribution - geographically - of voters. My guess there is a lot of anti-Pats sentiment, for a variety of reasons (the way they treat the press, allegations of foul play, etc), and will like that Eli slayed that dragon twice.

I agree that Eli's resume has holes. To me, significant holes.
RE: How about 4th quarter comebacks?  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 11:39 am : link
In comment 13851939 RinR said:
Quote:
Is that a relevant enough, non-counting stat? He is currently tied for 11th all-time and the 10 ahead of him are either already in the HOF or will be one day (Brady, Big Ben, Brees).

This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.


So 11th best in one cherry picked statistic is enough to get him in? Was he at all responsible for the Giants being behind in the first place? Here's another good article that makes the case he doesn't belong in the Hall. The money quote, for me:

Quote:
Among that group (of QBs who started 200 games), Eli Manning ranks either last, or ahead of only Testaverde, in nearly every season-indexed rate stat: completion rate, yards per attempt, interception rate, passer rating, adjusted yards per attempt, net yards per attempt and adjusted net yards per attempt.

Eli Manning is Profoundly Mediocre - ( New Window )
Are any other QBs  
UConn4523 : 3/6/2018 12:11 pm : link
responsible for their teams falling behind in their comeback wins or does this not apply to them?
RE: How about 4th quarter comebacks?  
Britt in VA : 3/6/2018 12:13 pm : link
In comment 13851939 RinR said:
Quote:
Is that a relevant enough, non-counting stat? He is currently tied for 11th all-time and the 10 ahead of him are either already in the HOF or will be one day (Brady, Big Ben, Brees).

This is so silly. Eli is getting in; maybe not first ballot but he is getting in.


How about breaking the record for 4th quarter TD passes in 2011, on that note, previously held in a tie by Unitas and Peyton.
2011 was an elite season from start to finish.  
BrettNYG10 : 3/6/2018 12:15 pm : link
I think that year is seriously underappreciated.
Is FiveThirtyEight still calling for a Clinton landslide?  
trueblueinpw : 3/6/2018 12:15 pm : link
That article in 538 really just boils down stats to say Eli isn’t as good as GOATs like Brady (who Eli beat twice in the Supe) and Rodgers and Peyton. People read some statistical analysis on the internet and all of the sudden it’s conclusive irrefutable fact. Until it isn’t. “There are lies, there are damed lies and then there are statistics”.

Back to my original point on the original article which was also stat based “analysis” , Romo, who apparently is somehow statistically better than Eli is not nearly as good an NFL QB simply for the reasons that he wasn’t good in big games, he didn’t manage to stay healthy and he never got close to wining a Super Bowl. In all key elements of being a great NFL QB Tony Romo consistenlty failed. It was the same thing with Romo’s golf game which for years was gauged by the media as being PGA worthy. When Romo went to qualify for his Tour card, whoops, guess he wasn’t that good. Romo is the personification of media hype and stat compiling. The only QB I can think of who’s more overrated than Romo is Kurt Warner.

On the other hand, we have the “statistically mediocre” Eli who has been essential to two epic Super Bowl championships felling lengendary teams in legendary games with legendary plays and he’s started 222 consecutive games. Even two seasons ago, Eli’s last playoff game, Eli came to play and while he could t pull his team through that game to a victory, he rose up and played his best football of the season in the biggest game. He belongs in the HOF.

Money on the table, one big game to win on the biggest stage with all the pressure, what NFL QB do you want? As a Giants fan, I’ll take Eli and I’ll feel pretty darn good about my chances because, you know, he’s already done it twice
Tony Romo won't sniff the HOF  
arniefez : 3/6/2018 12:18 pm : link
if it wasn't for Romo the Giants wouldn't have won 42 or 46. His play vs the Giants with a vastly superior team both years was a big reason the Giants won those Super Bowls. If Eli was the QB for those Cowboy teams they would have won a lot more than 2 games.
I love when people tell us  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 12:21 pm : link
not to look at stats to judge Eli when they think he is medicore.... but yet show stats that prove that he is.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.
RE: I love when people tell us  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13852097 dep026 said:
Quote:
not to look at stats to judge Eli when they think he is medicore.... but yet show stats that prove that he is.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.


The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?

The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.

But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.
RE: RE: I love when people tell us  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13852152 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 13852097 dep026 said:


Quote:


not to look at stats to judge Eli when they think he is medicore.... but yet show stats that prove that he is.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.



The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?

The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.

But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.


Oh, and by the way: I am a season ticket holder, go to every game, and generally wear my Eli jersey. I am a fan. But I can also be objective. It's not that hard.
You can be objective and still think Eli is a HoFer  
UConn4523 : 3/6/2018 12:56 pm : link
you have your criteria and other have theirs. Thinking he won’t go in doesn’t make you objective, either.

There’s plenty of reasons why he should go to the hall of fame. You seem to gloss over those and thats your prerogative, but I think they mater a lot more than you think they do.
Do people who think Eli doesn't belong think Big Ben is a HOF'er?  
BrettNYG10 : 3/6/2018 12:58 pm : link
.
I feel Eli  
crick n NC : 3/6/2018 1:05 pm : link
Is a borderline HOF'ER. To me he isn't a player that you say, " he definitely should not be in the HOF" and on the other shouldn't be a guy that definitely should.

However, I would be surprised if he did not get in.
RE: Do people who think Eli doesn't belong think Big Ben is a HOF'er?  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 1:11 pm : link
In comment 13852178 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
.


Yes, I am in that camp. I think there is clear separation between the two.
RE: RE: I love when people tell us  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 1:18 pm : link
In comment 13852152 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 13852097 dep026 said:


Quote:


not to look at stats to judge Eli when they think he is medicore.... but yet show stats that prove that he is.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

I am sure those same people would want Matt Ryan to be their 4th Quarter QB when the game is on the line too.



The preponderance of stats that measure QB play show that Eli is mediocre. Is this refutable?

The only argument for Eli in the Hall of Fame is that he went on two playoff runs that add up to 6 games. You can't just ignore the other 200 games, during which he played rather average.

But let's see. Eli starts off with an advantage, in that he plays in NY, where a lot of media is. I will be very surprised if he gets any real support for his candidacy.


When using stat to judge how a player plays tends to be misleading. I can cherry pick stats too. The point is for 14 years now, he has been deemed good enough to start for an NFL franchise. He has thrown for the 8th most TDs in history and 7th most yards. If use team stats as far as rushing and defense go - he has played with some of the WORST units in the NFL for multiple years.

He never had the luxury of playing in a dome or in warm weather.

The goal of each player isnt to put up the best stats. Some players it is. Taking sacks or not risking throws to ensure their completion percentage and INT totals stay at commendable numbers. But if you take away...

brady
peyton
Rodgers

3 of the greatest players at their position...

You then have the likes of Brees - who is a stats machine, but has been to the playoffs ONE more time than Eli in his career in more years.

Roethlisberger who has more clunkers in big games than Eli and has played with more talent on offense AND defense than probably anyone in history not names Joe Montana - and his numbers and rings are virtually identical.

After those 5 who really stands out more than Eli?

Wilson? - Easy argument that he has been carried more by his surrounding cast than him.
Luck? - injuries have slowed that.
Staffrd? - really?
Ryan? - Laughable
Cam? - will always be a better runner than thrower.

For the past 5 years, the Giants team has been miserable outside 2016. Eli has not played well in all of those years, but he was way better than average in 2014 and 2015. He slipped a bit in 2016 - but still threw for 26 TDs and led us to double digit wins.

And dont give me he has an edge cause he plays in NY or as others say he has an edge because he is a Manning. Those two things have put even a BIGGER spotlight on him - and he produces year after year after year.
mike  
RinR : 3/6/2018 1:21 pm : link
You're the one that diminished the importance of the traditional stats with:

Quote:
He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.


So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.

So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?
only Eli can get penalized for longevity  
UConn4523 : 3/6/2018 1:32 pm : link
its really unreal.
RE: Do people who think Eli doesn't belong think Big Ben is a HOF'er?  
trueblueinpw : 3/6/2018 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13852178 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
.


Or Drew Brees? People always talk about how great Brees is, and he is great, but he plays almost all his games indoors or in good weather. Does that matter? Big and Brees are always said to be locks for HOF but I don’t see how either is demonstratively better than Eli.
RE: only Eli can get penalized for longevity  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 1:53 pm : link
In comment 13852261 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
its really unreal.


I’ve never been big on rewarding health. Don’t get me wrong, there is value in being able to show up time and time again. And Eli has played for a long time. But so did his brother, Favre, and Brady. And they have maintained a level of excellence that Eli can’t sniff.

So I’d rather reward excellence instead of longevity when it comes to this individual awards like the Hall of Fame. I’m glad that players like Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis got rewarded for their excellence and not dinged for the lack of longevity. I hope that same courtesy is extended to Sterling Sharpe on day because he was one of the most prolific receivers I ever saw...His seven years playing receiver are as good as anyone who walked this planet.

Excellence over longevity...that’s the formula.
RE: RE: Do people who think Eli doesn't belong think Big Ben is a HOF'er?  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 2:05 pm : link
In comment 13852285 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 13852178 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


.



Or Drew Brees? People always talk about how great Brees is, and he is great, but he plays almost all his games indoors or in good weather. Does that matter? Big and Brees are always said to be locks for HOF but I don’t see how either is demonstratively better than Eli.


Yes, indoors is a factor. But indoors doesn't make you taller or bigger. Brees is shorter than Eli by 4 iches.

Sorry, but Brees is the superior QB to Eli, and that's not even close...
But you aren’t and wouldn’t be exclusively  
UConn4523 : 3/6/2018 2:11 pm : link
rewarding health. It’s part of a resume, just like anything else. How much you want to weigh it is debatable but to simply say you’d rather have excellence is completely ignoring longevity. It’s not and either/or scenario.

He’s been abnormally durable and dependable, and had 2 excellent playoff runs capped off by 2 Lombardi’s in addition to the stats he’s compiled over his career. I don’t see how he doesn’t get in.
RE: But you aren’t and wouldn’t be exclusively  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13852323 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
rewarding health. It’s part of a resume, just like anything else. How much you want to weigh it is debatable but to simply say you’d rather have excellence is completely ignoring longevity. It’s not and either/or scenario.

He’s been abnormally durable and dependable, and had 2 excellent playoff runs capped off by 2 Lombardi’s in addition to the stats he’s compiled over his career. I don’t see how he doesn’t get in.
It's more than just health too, right? In order to accumulate that number of games, you have to be the very best option that a championship, winning, or even competitive team can have. I am sure that failing health is not the only reason why other teams have gong through multiple QB's.

IMO, it's disingenuous to dismiss Eli's stats "because he played lots of games". He played lots of games for a reason.
RE: mike  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 2:40 pm : link
In comment 13852232 RinR said:
Quote:
You're the one that diminished the importance of the traditional stats with:



Quote:


He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.



So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.

So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?


Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.

Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.

Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.
And Ben has had HoF talent on his line  
UConn4523 : 3/6/2018 3:08 pm : link
defense and skill positions for his entire career. Should we talk about that or does that not jive with your side of things? Does Ben get dinged for his no shows in the playoffs? What about his free SB trophy against Seattle where he did everything possible to lose that game?

We can both play this game.
RE: RE: mike  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 3:09 pm : link
In comment 13852356 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 13852232 RinR said:


Quote:


You're the one that diminished the importance of the traditional stats with:



Quote:


He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.



So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.

So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?



Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.

Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.

Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.


it could be argued Eli has accomplished as much if not more with less talent surrounding him. Ben has always played with superior run games and defense which have a heavy influence on every stat you brought up.
RE: RE: RE: mike  
Thegratefulhead : 3/6/2018 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13852409 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852356 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


In comment 13852232 RinR said:


Quote:


You're the one that diminished the importance of the traditional stats with:



Quote:


He has lots of counting stats (like total TDs, Total Yds, etc.) primarily because of the numbers of games he's played.



So when I offer one where he is on a par with some of the all-time greats, you dont like that one either.

So tell us which QB stats are important to you for entry into the HOF?



Fourth quarter stats are interesting, but they cover a quarter of the game. You also cannot just take one stat into account. What I think most people who follow advanced stats interesting is stats that reveal how well a QB played in regards to his passes. For example, Adjusted Passing yards per attempt, which divides yards by attempt and adjust TD passes and interceptions thrown. This stat penalizes incompletions and interceptions and rewards completions, yardage on those completions, and TDs.

Eli has 6.5 adjusted yards per attempt. Ben Roethlisthberger has 7.7, more than a yard better.

Eli also suffers in comparison to Roethlisberger in regards to TDs as a percentage of passes, interceptions as a percentage of passes, yards total per game, and overall QB rating. Eli has not been as good a QB as Ben.



it could be argued Eli has accomplished as much if not more with less talent surrounding him. Ben has always played with superior run games and defense which have a heavy influence on every stat you brought up.
There was a time when Eli played with what was considered the among th best OLs and running games in the NFL. It wasn't long but Ward/Jacobs/Bradshaw was pretty sick. He played with some good receivers too.
RE: But you aren’t and wouldn’t be exclusively  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13852323 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
rewarding health. It’s part of a resume, just like anything else. How much you want to weigh it is debatable but to simply say you’d rather have excellence is completely ignoring longevity. It’s not and either/or scenario.

I don't have a problem citing longevity. But it can't be part of the lead. In the business world, longevity gets recognized with a pen, a watch, or maybe a plaque. But you don't get a huge bonus for always punching in...
RE: And Ben has had HoF talent on his line  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13852406 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
defense and skill positions for his entire career. Should we talk about that or does that not jive with your side of things? Does Ben get dinged for his no shows in the playoffs? What about his free SB trophy against Seattle where he did everything possible to lose that game?

We can both play this game.


Well, you know none of those things are statistics, so I would argue we are not 'playing the same game.' They are subjective observations, which is fine. But they aren't a statistical review of a player's performance.

And let's not forget, Eli did not have a great game statistically in the first super bowl. His defense did.
Eli has played with some good talent  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 3:26 pm : link
No doubt, but the thing is that talent didnt last in the league long and they rarely overlapped with each other. He had Plax, Tiki, and Shockey for 2 years. He had Nicks, Cruz, and Manningham for roughly 2 years.

A lot of these unfortunately got hurt. Beckham still hasnt played with a legitimate 2nd threat yet. For as great as Jacobs/bradshaw were- they were rotational RBs and nowhere NEAR the same as Leveon Bell. Eli never had a Heath Miller for his entire career. Or multiple pro bowl lineman. 2006-2008 our OL was very good. Ben has had that just about every year he has played. For as great as Snee was, he was no Mike Pouncey. Or Alan Faneca.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 3/6/2018 3:31 pm : link
I think Ben's a better QB (marginally), but Eli was a greater driver in his teams championships.

I think both should get in.
HOF voters won't really give a shit about supporting cast.  
BrettNYG10 : 3/6/2018 3:32 pm : link
.
How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 3:32 pm : link
Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm
....  
BrettNYG10 : 3/6/2018 3:41 pm : link
I think the rings are the big differentiator between Rivers and Eli.

Eli wouldn't be a HOF'er if not for the rings.
RE: How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 3:41 pm : link
In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm


Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?
RE: ....  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 3:42 pm : link
In comment 13852439 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think Ben's a better QB (marginally), but Eli was a greater driver in his teams championships.

I think both should get in.


I'm not so sure Eli is more prolific on the big stage than BR. Roeth had a pretty clutch throw to Santonio Holmes to to beat AZ in the SB...for example.
RE: RE: How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/6/2018 3:47 pm : link
In comment 13852456 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm



Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?


Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?
RE: RE: RE: How about compared to Philip Rivers?  
dep026 : 3/6/2018 3:47 pm : link
In comment 13852463 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 13852456 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852441 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


Eli also trails him in almost every indexed statistical category, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Chargers have had significantly better teams than the Giants.

Adjusted yards / pass attempt: Rivers 7.7, Eli 6.5
TD % per pass thrown: Rivers 5.3, Eli 4.6
Int % per pass thrown: Rivers 2.6, Eli 3.1
Yards per game Rivers: 256.9, Eli 239.3
Rating: Rivers 94.8, Eli 83.5

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm



Rivers has had a nice career. Playing out in sunny SD. Amazing how the stats changed in the playoffs though, isnt it?



Well, not really. Eli's rating is slightly higher 87.4 / 85.2 and the adjusted yards per pass difference is less than a yard. But we are talking here about 12 games and 9 games. Pick out any chunk of 12 games in Eli's career, and you can make him look like the greatest ever. What is more useful to judge a player, 200+ games, or 12?


The 12 because those are the games that matter most.
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