Awhile ago I made a post called “The Case for Pat Shurmur” at the beginning of the search based upon quotes from John Mara and Dave Gettleman and I think based on getting that one right I’m on the right track. Here I will do the same based upon quotes by Dave Gettleman and Pat Shurmur.
This seems to me a very important quote from DG (It came in the context of learning that he never wanted to go through this again):
“Obviously you get some of these guys with the spread systems,” Gettleman said, via Newsday. “There are six things that a lot of these kids have never done that, to me, is Quarterback 101 through 106.”
Gettleman broke these traits down to Rock as follows: 1. Making a huddle call, 2. Identifying a mike linebacker, 3. Making a protection call, 4. Taking a snap from center, 5. Calling an audible and 6. Throwing a hot route.”
This to me rules out Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield who both played in the spread. Here are some quotes from various articles on Darnold.
"I think we're a spread," Darnold said. "But I think we like to run the ball a little bit more than the typical spread offense would. But, yeah, I guess we're a spread, if you want to put it in literal terms."
“In literal terms, USC largely operates out of the shotgun, as most spread attacks do. “
“By no means are they a run-first pro-style offense in the Stanford mold.”
“He has a slight hitch, a wind-up in his throw, and he does stare down receivers,” said one veteran evaluator. “He’s still learning to read defenses.”
The quotes prove Darnold is a spread QB who took almost all of his snaps in the shotgun and is still learning to do that and to read defenses. Its NOT just his mechanics and his footwork that he needs to work on. He hasnt done what DG calls QB 101 to QB 106 before we’ve even gotten to how he throws.
Mayfield is a similar boat. He’s never taken a snap under center.
This tells what Gettleman is not looking for. So what qualities does Dave Gettleman look for in a QB?
Q: What are the most important qualities you look for in a franchise quarterback?
DG: The obvious is the physical ability to do it, but it’s beyond that. It’s the leadership. It’s knowing how to rally the troops. It’s gotta be smarts. Head coach is a CEO, I gotta be a CEO, to a certain degree the quarterback’s gotta be a CEO. Put it in relatable terms — he’s gotta be a guy that if there’s a burning building and he says, “Let’s go,” he gets trampled.
Q: Describe five traits of a Dave Gettleman football player.
A: Hates to lose, instinctive, very smart, team guy, just a high-character guy off the field.
One thing that came up twice is intelligence. This is a trait that Josh Rosen is known for.
David Carr said this on Rosen:
“He’s the most pro-ready quarterback in this draft class, and I believe Rosen could win a starting job in a lot of places due to his football IQ and physical ability," Carr said, via NFL.com. "I've had conversations with him, and he reminds me of Eli Manning, who I've said countless times is the smartest player I've ever been around. Having that same type of vibe, you get the sense he's almost bored. Some evaluators will see this trait as arrogance, but the teams that aren't intimidated by his intellect will challenge him. Give Rosen a playbook and a few months, and he'll bring it to life."
Trent Dilfer said this:
"He's intellectual, he has convictions, he's not going to be wishy washy on stuff, he's going to demand that his coaches give him the best stuff because he wants to be the best, kind of sounds like Peyton Manning."
So we know from 2 different sources that Josh Rosen has something that DG said he is looking for more than once.
We are talking about a player who learned his UCLA playbook in just 3 days as a Sophomore.
@DownWithDamon
Josh Rosen learned his UCLA playbook in just three days. Wow
This seems like a huge edge as he played in a pro-offense and has done all of the QB101 to QB 106 things.
What edge did this give UCLA?
“You virtually never hear coaches talk about the need to change the style of offense so that the sophomore QB has more authority and options at the line of scrimmage. A switch to a pro-style offense is almost never contemplated.
Yet, that's what's happening right now at UCLA. When head coach Jim Mora recently discussed the Bruins' new approach on offense with Sports Illustrated's Pete Thamel, he emphasized the need for UCLA to put more on Rosen's plate and allow him to shape the offensive from the line of scrimmage.”
Again compare that to guys who have to learn to take snaps under Center and how to read the D.
Now the “hates to lose” comment which DG has repeatedly said he is looking for also.
Trent Dilfer said:
"You can't be lazy if you are coaching Josh Rosen because he is going to expect something good every day...He wants the answers. He wants to be great. Aaron Rodgers is very similar. He demands that you coach him uniquely every day."
"I do think he's tough, I do think he wants it, I think he wants to be great, he's grown up wanting to be great, I think he wants to be great," Dilfer said. "Does he have a different personality? Yeah, but I think it's a personality that actually works for an NFL quarterback.
This sounds to me like a guy who “hates to lose”. Im not sure how else I would define other than someone who challenges everyone else around them to be better.
Now lets see what the HC Pat Shurmur is looking for in a QB.
“That’s the foundation of throwing is your feet,” Shurmur said, holding his hands like he was going to throw a pass and motioning toward his feet. “That’s where you create the ground force, from your back foot all the way, the motion goes up through your fingers. That motion starts with your feet. In the West Coast, it’s all about the feet.”
“Number two, the three most important attributes of playing the quarterback position are decision-making, timing and accuracy.”
These are all of the qualities that Josh Rosen is known for. The intelligence plays into decision making. But that has been a knock on Darnold. Darnold top critique is his footwork and mechanics.
Here is a quote I took from an article on Rosen;
“he has something that’s even better: actual skill throwing the football. Josh Rosen is a beautiful quarterback. His footwork is refined and consistent. His throwing motion is nearly impeccable. And his intermediate and deep passes are gorgeous to watch.” That matches pretty closely with the traits Shurmur said on a QB.
This article on Rosen as a tennis player goes into how this has led to a huge strength of his.
UCLA QB Josh Rosen Shares the Surprising Secret Behind His Stellar Footwork
http://www.stack.com/a/ucla-qb-josh-rosen-shares-the-surprising-secret-behind-his-stellar-footwork
Darnold strength has been said to be his athleticism and his ability to throw on the run and extend plays. I have seen this named by either Gettleman or Shurmur as their top qualities in a QB.
Could the Giants go Barkley (If he is even available at 2) ? This quote from Shurmur makes me doubt that:
In my mind, that's one of those position groups that takes a village," Shurmur said about the running back position. "The best scenario in my mind at running back is when you have a No. 1 and No. 1-A.
If the HC wants a RB by Committee approach them Im not sure that taking a RB at #2, whom you immediately have to pay as a top 5 RB in the league sounds like its what they will do.
I’ll finish it off with a few more Trent Dilfer quotes on Rosen.
"I think Josh Rosen crushes New York," said Dilfer. "New York is sophistication. It's a lot of things, but it is very diverse. It's a lot of stimuli. That's what Josh Rosen thrives off of. He wants the energy, the stimulus, the pressure.
Josh challenges the common narratives because he wants to wrestle with them," Dilfer said. "I'm a better coach because I learned I couldn't come with weak stuff. You can't just recycle old news because it works with some people. You have to constantly stimulate his mind."
The former-NFL-quarterback-turned-ESPN-analyst said Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers are “not always the best people to be around,” but “they demand the best from the people around them because they want to be great.”
“I think Josh has that in him,” Dilfer said.
We have here a just turned 21 year old who will thrive in pressure, wants to be great, challenge even his coaches to be better. How many players have a coach who said they made them a better coach?
So, with all of this I think Josh Rosen is the clear favorite.
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I have removed him from my draft board altogether. Darnold and Allen are much better prospects and drafting a QB would be a luxury but it is not a need.
Lol, unless your last name is Gettleman and your key card still works, why does your draft board matter?
Lol, I always get a chuckle when a poster tells us that a player is "off their board"
A luxury pick? This team won 3 games and has holes all over. No pick will be a luxury.
But we must remember
His first chance as an HC and they took Trent Richardson #3.
Hes been through the RB hype before.
A luxury pick? This team won 3 games and has holes all over. No pick will be a luxury.
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In comment 13851325 NYGmen58 said:
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I have removed him from my draft board altogether. Darnold and Allen are much better prospects and drafting a QB would be a luxury but it is not a need.
Lol, unless your last name is Gettleman and your key card still works, why does your draft board matter?
Lol, I always get a chuckle when a poster tells us that a player is "off their board"
Lmao
And what was your reaction when Ernie pulled off the trade?
A: The man knew what he wanted, who he wanted. There’s an old saying in the draft: “If you want a guy, go get him!” … Don’t be shy. And it’s not about perception of what’s outside, or you paid too much for him, you did this, you did that — no. It’s all about your football team. I just said to myself, “Wow.”
Everything I read about tbe USC offense seemed to say simplified and allow Darnold to make plays with his athleticism
Gettleman was pretty clear he would really look at the players answers and see their "football IQ"
"You talk about the learning curve and the ability to do it. That’s why I’m so into how football smart is he, how much natural football intelligence does he have?”"
“Delving into their football acumen,” he said, “is really important.”
Who do you think will have that edge?
Darnold who took almost all snaps in shotgun with a mostly Spread? Or the guy who learned his playbook in 3 days so the staff could add more options?
Link - ( New Window )
Plenty have people have said you don’t draft a RB (or OG) at #2. That is, in essence, removing those people from your draft boards. People talk in absolutes...we are drafting a QB for whatever reason, we’re not drafting such and such... That’s setting your own personal draft board (unless the name behind your handle actually is Dave Gettleman). Everybody here is no more than a pretend GM; why give anyone a hard time about it?
Heres what DG said:
“It’s how do they throw the ball,” he said. “It’s about mechanics, both upper and lower. Accuracy, poise under pressure, pocket presence. Can he extend plays and make plays with his feet? To what degree?”
Thats not the same as "legs" which is taken to mean "scrambling"
He will be more accurate and have a better arm. If we struggle early, there will be enormous pressure to start Rosen. With every turnover or loss there will be mounting pressure to start the kid. I think they will be more comfortable taking the project QBs(Darnold or Throw the remote Allen)
If the Giants pass on Rosen because he might out play Eli in practice we got bigger problems.
Remember the Giants will likely “blow a lot of smoke” this spring. I’d be careful reading too much into Gettleman’s quotes since he’s been hired.
All the great qualities in the world won’t matter if the guy is injured / not available for multiple games. The Giants don’t need “the Justin Pugh of quarterbacks”. The NFL defensive players are bigger and stronger than the ones Rosen faced in college. Rosen would look great in a Browns uniform.
And what was your reaction when Ernie pulled off the trade?
A: The man knew what he wanted, who he wanted. There’s an old saying in the draft: “If you want a guy, go get him!” … Don’t be shy. And it’s not about perception of what’s outside, or you paid too much for him, you did this, you did that — no. It’s all about your football team. I just said to myself, “Wow.”
Im excited about Gettlemens 1st draft... I really hope the Gmen can go back to finding quality players beyond round 3 something Jerry really struggled with his last few seasons
Q: What are the most important qualities you look for in a franchise quarterback?
DG: The obvious is the physical ability to do it.
Rosen's injury history means there are real questions about his "physical ability to do it." Rosen is the best player in the draft. But that's irrelevant if he can't stay on the field. He's a pure pocket passer with nimble feet but not a threat to run. OL play is borderline awful and DEs are lightning quick. Our OL is particularly bad.
I'd say no at all three at #2, except maybe Darnold.
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he's not the greatest locker room presence.
which may be significant. When he was going through DG’s quotes, the OP left out the part about leadership.
The fact is none of us know. There basicslly have been anonymous media reports. Plenty of his teammates have spoken out about it and said its not true. You either believe it or dont
There is no proven fact here like an arrest, suspension, fights with teammates on sidelines, antics on field, etc
The point of my post is that i think Giants criteria makes Rosen the favorite. I think they will base their judgement on his character/leadership by in person presentation. No one will know but them. I dont believe based on what ive read that the Giants would rule someone out based on anonyous media articles.
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In comment 13851429 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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he's not the greatest locker room presence.
which may be significant. When he was going through DG’s quotes, the OP left out the part about leadership.
The fact is none of us know. There basicslly have been anonymous media reports. Plenty of his teammates have spoken out about it and said its not true. You either believe it or dont
There is no proven fact here like an arrest, suspension, fights with teammates on sidelines, antics on field, etc
The point of my post is that i think Giants criteria makes Rosen the favorite. I think they will base their judgement on his character/leadership by in person presentation. No one will know but them. I dont believe based on what ive read that the Giants would rule someone out based on anonyous media articles.
Lolol
But we must remember
His first chance as an HC and they took Trent Richardson #3.
Hes been through the RB hype before.
Trent wasn't hyped like this to my knowledge. And you had guys like Jim Brown calling him out as a bust before he ever took a preseason snap.
offense was more pro style then spread. A couple of things that need repeating about Darnold. He is extremely young,(won't be 21 until June)and VERY inexperienced. He didn't start playing quarterback until into his junior year in high school,started 10 games last year at USC,and the entire 2017 season. I am not concerned about his quirky throwing motion or his arm strength. I am VERY concerned about his ball security and his penchant for fumbling and how well is he going to handle a cold,slippery ball when he has had problems in the warmth of California.
If Jerry Reese was in charge I have little doubt that our guy is Josh Allen,still may be.
Remember the Giants will likely “blow a lot of smoke” this spring. I’d be careful reading too much into Gettleman’s quotes since he’s been hired.
All the great qualities in the world won’t matter if the guy is injured / not available for multiple games. The Giants don’t need “the Justin Pugh of quarterbacks”. The NFL defensive players are bigger and stronger than the ones Rosen faced in college. Rosen would look great in a Browns uniform.
We won 3 games with that “young 37” year old at QB last season.
But we must remember
His first chance as an HC and they took Trent Richardson #3.
Hes been through the RB hype before.
Watching Total Access on NFL Network, they were discussing Leveon Bell and how he was in the field for 90% of Pittsburghs plays and he wants to be paid more in line with a top WR because not only does he carry the ball about 20 times a game, he catches about 4-7 passes a game. Most WR average 7 touches a game.
Barkley is a more explosive RB and is just as good a receiver as Bell. I like the idea of getting a QB and using the rest of the draft to add depth and hopefully add a couple starters. It has been discussed that a mind set of a cost controlled contract of a young QB is a smart financial decision as QB's are gonna be overpaid, especially the good ones. I also believe the league is a win now league. So the argument either way of drafting Rosen or Barkley is 100 % valid.
offense was more pro style then spread. A couple of things that need repeating about Darnold. He is extremely young,(won't be 21 until June)and VERY inexperienced. He didn't start playing quarterback until into his junior year in high school,started 10 games last year at USC,and the entire 2017 season. I am not concerned about his quirky throwing motion or his arm strength. I am VERY concerned about his ball security and his penchant for fumbling and how well is he going to handle a cold,slippery ball when he has had problems in the warmth of California.
If Jerry Reese was in charge I have little doubt that our guy is Josh Allen,still may be.
So you know better than Sam Darnold himself, huh? He called his offense a Spread.
And Rosen while now 21 is just a few months younger than Darnold.
If the Giants take him I could see him being the opposite of Eli — a lot of games with pretty fantasy stats but a lot of games missed due to injury. Not sure if he has the clutch factor either.
Rosen could end up being Bradford or Brady.
On top of that, I don't care how much weight he adds on, the guy has had 2 concussions in a short amount of time which statistically makes him more prone to have another one, and another one. On top of that the guy has less mobility than Eli.
Yes he throws a nice ball and is intelligent but he has a tendency to be way too opinionated and in NY that will kill him.
This guy should not be the pick under any circumstance.
UCLA quarterback and top NFL prospect Josh Rosen sat out Tuesday night's Cactus Bowl after he was not cleared to play.
Sports Illustrated earlier reported that Rosen wanted to play, but the decision was "100 percent medical."
"I want to be clear on this: Josh wanted to play,'' Bruins interim coach Jedd Fisch said after the game. "Josh was unable to play because of the fact that he had two concussions within a four-week span in November, and our physicians didn't feel comfortable putting him out there and putting him at risk for a possibility of a third concussion.''
This is disturbing. College athletes have to pay their own way to away games? Really?
As for your infatuation with Rosen,Gettleman doesn't appear to be a GM who will risk the overall #2 pick on a player who can't stay on the field. I love Rosen's talent but I wouldn't select him due to injury history. Two concussions in one season and that being the last one is way too big a flag for me.
UCLA quarterback and top NFL prospect Josh Rosen sat out Tuesday night's Cactus Bowl after he was not cleared to play.
Sports Illustrated earlier reported that Rosen wanted to play, but the decision was "100 percent medical."
"I want to be clear on this: Josh wanted to play,'' Bruins interim coach Jedd Fisch said after the game. "Josh was unable to play because of the fact that he had two concussions within a four-week span in November, and our physicians didn't feel comfortable putting him out there and putting him at risk for a possibility of a third concussion.''
Ok stand corrected but the reason he didn't play doesn't make me feel any better.
Thats what he said. As far asI can tell- Darnold hadnt do e QB 101 to QB106.
1) he's got a concussion history
2) he's an 'odd duck'...you never know what he's going to say or how 'visibly' he's going to say it.
3) he's the least mobile and pocket elusive of the top QB prospects. As a result he takes the most big hits.
So he's a blue chip draft prospect with a few warts.
1) he's got a concussion history
2) he's an 'odd duck'...you never know what he's going to say or how 'visibly' he's going to say it.
3) he's the least mobile and pocket elusive of the top QB prospects. As a result he takes the most big hits.
So he's a blue chip draft prospect with a few warts.
Number 3 is not valid, he is solid athlete, his 40 was better than Darnolds. He should be the Giants pick, hands down.
Also, can everyone please stop with the Gettleman generic platitudes (i.e. Hog Mollies, qb 101 to 106, etc), let the guy actually do something here before he is anointed. Everyone anointed Reese, and he turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. This guy was run out of Carolina, and has yet to draft a franchise qb (Newton was already in place), he also has Reese's stink all over him. Let's be skeptical of him until he has gotten us our next franchise qb and put a consistent contender on the field.
The HC and GM were fired before the season ended; sure sounds like they (plus another league lead in injuries) were the problem.
Given the Giants have led the league in injuries 4 or the last 5 seasons in games lost by starters (despite none of those injuries to the starting QB), how does spending the 2nd overall pick on a player who missed games multiple times due to concussions in his last year of college football make any sense?
The Giants need to plan for Eli’s replacement. That is clear given his age. However, I’m not sure spending the 2nd overall pick on any of these 2018 draft QBs is worth it from what I’ve read about them.
...amazing amount of research you put into this... wow!
Big fan of Josh Rosen so I'd be real happy with the Giants selecting the UCLA QB at #2!!!
But the fact is - he is the one running the draft snd therefore his opinion matters most.
The point of this thread is to use his publicly known thoughts (as well as Shurmurs) and apply it and see who he might be taking or not taking.
I make no judgement if he is correct. (Just because Darnold hasnt done QB 101 to QB 106 doesnt mean thaf he wont be a good NFL QB - it means that hes less likely to be DGs draft pick at 2)
Since Ive done this before on tbe HC search and was proven to be correct; i think im on solid ground here
He talked about going after these guys football knowledge
Rosen was the sharpest of all the quarterbacks Coach A met with at the combine in terms of how quickly he processed information and adapted to new terminology during one-on-one meetings: “He was very impressive. He
knows football inside and out.”
He came across very well when we sat down with him
Coach B concurred: “It’s not close. He’s by far the most advanced.” (In relation to his football knowledge)
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...and I'm sure it won't stop here but there are onbly a few knocks on Rosen.
1) he's got a concussion history
2) he's an 'odd duck'...you never know what he's going to say or how 'visibly' he's going to say it.
3) he's the least mobile and pocket elusive of the top QB prospects. As a result he takes the most big hits.
So he's a blue chip draft prospect with a few warts.
Number 3 is not valid, he is solid athlete, his 40 was better than Darnolds. He should be the Giants pick, hands down.
Also, can everyone please stop with the Gettleman generic platitudes (i.e. Hog Mollies, qb 101 to 106, etc), let the guy actually do something here before he is anointed. Everyone anointed Reese, and he turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. This guy was run out of Carolina, and has yet to draft a franchise qb (Newton was already in place), he also has Reese's stink all over him. Let's be skeptical of him until he has gotten us our next franchise qb and put a consistent contender on the field.
I’m pretty sure there are a fair amount GMs out there who will accept being called an ‘unmitigated disaster’ with two Super Bowls under his belt.
Weird how he continues to get little to no credit for that.
I’m pretty sure there are a fair amount GMs out there who will accept being called an ‘unmitigated disaster’ with two Super Bowls under his belt.
Weird how he continues to get little to no credit for that.
My biggest issue with Reese was that he was a consensus builder rather than a visionary, but that may be unfair, too, because it's hard to tell how much power he really had given Coughlin's large personality (and his longtime connection with the Mara family). What I like about Gettleman is that you can tell right away, decisions will be his, not one of consensus. No guts, no glory, and decisions based on consensus tend to lack guts.
The most unfair criticism of Reese that I hear from time to time is that he was arrogant. The man was not arrogant. He could get defensive at time, but that's understandable given his job.