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Dilfer: Giants have their QB of future in Webb

ryanmkeane : 3/6/2018 1:03 pm
Dilfer feels UCLA quarterback Josh Rosen would be the most optimal fit for the Giants if general manager Dave Gettleman wanted to go that route in Round 1, but doesn’t necessary agree that New York must select a quarterback.

Rather, Dilfer says, the Giants already their Eli Manning heir on the roster in the form of 2017 third-round pick Davis Webb.

“I think they have their future quarterback,” Dilfer told NJ Advance Media. “Given enough time and given that they have a two-time Super Bowl champion to bridge a couple years to integrate that guy in.

“Giving Davis a year or two more to develop and learn the ropes and kind of establish himself in the locker room and play well in preseason, it helps your team. Now you don’t have to go overpay at the position, or draft and roll the dice.”

Dilfer also believes the Giants are in good shape with Manning, who has already been named the team’s starter in 2018 and potentially beyond.

“I really like the combination of Eli and Davis Webb,” Dilfer said. “I might be on an island there, but I think Eli still has a lot of good stuff in the tank. Especially considering so much of this game now is from the neck up. Eli has plenty of talent, plenty of juice. He just needs more answers to the test. He needs to be able to win the game intellectually as much as physically. I think this system will allow him to do that.”

I agree with Dilfer at this point in time, and I'm in the "Barkley, or trade back if he's gone" camp.
Dilfer on Webb - ( New Window )
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RE: It's definitely a gamble to place the future of the organization  
Rick5 : 3/6/2018 4:19 pm : link
In comment 13852197 nyjuggernaut2 said:
Quote:
in Webb's hands. But at the same time, it's a gamble taking a QB at #2 and hoping he becomes the franchise QB one day. Just have to trust the front office on this one whichever way they decide to go.

If they take one at number two, then either that QB or Webb could be the quarterback of the future. There's a better chance of one of the two quarterbacks panning out than putting all of their eggs in one basket.
I just dont understand  
gmen9892 : 3/6/2018 4:20 pm : link
This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.
RE: I just dont understand  
bLiTz 2k : 3/6/2018 4:35 pm : link
In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.


Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?
RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 4:46 pm : link
In comment 13852533 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:


Quote:


This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.



Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?

It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
Was Dilfer's assessment  
Jay in Toronto : 3/6/2018 4:48 pm : link
of Webb based on any knowledge?

Did they cross paths at a QB camp? Does he have buddies on the Giants who shared impressions of Webb?
RE: I just dont understand  
Jay in Toronto : 3/6/2018 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.


Good post. Thanks for unpacking this assumption. It's just that -- not a 'fact.'
So Let's say NYG drafts Darnold  
Rjanyg : 3/6/2018 4:52 pm : link
Darnold hasn't taken snaps under center if I am correct? He didn't audible much either correct? He is also very young.

How is adding Darnold a good investment in terms of being pro ready if we are saying how green Webb was or is?

The argument for Rosen or even Allen might be plausible because at least those guys ran more of a pro style offense.
RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
mrvax : 3/6/2018 4:56 pm : link
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.


I can't conclude that Eli sucked because I believe that any QB last year would have been subject to lousy play calling, backup receivers and no time to throw the ball. If DG and Shumur get this fixed, we can see how Eli performs.

I will grant you that with these issues, Eli did not play well.
RE: RE: Compare  
Thegratefulhead : 3/6/2018 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13852425 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?



I'll play!

Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
That's where I have them too, except Rosen over Darnold in size. He doesn't seem that far away and he has had a year with Eli. I am hoping for Barkley at 2.
RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Section331 : 3/6/2018 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.


That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.
RE: RE: RE: Compare  
Section331 : 3/6/2018 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13852553 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
That's where I have them too, except Rosen over Darnold in size. He doesn't seem that far away and he has had a year with Eli. I am hoping for Barkley at 2.


Very true. I expected Darnold to come in a little bigger than Rosen (at least weightwise), and forgot the combine measurements.
RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13852533 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:


Quote:


This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.



Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?


It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
Without arguijng the point, I would say that there's a whale of a difference between elevating even journeymen players and less than replacement level players. In our SB, they weren't HoF players but they were capable. You can't say that these past couple years. It's really hard to make generalizations...this player is not necessarily that player.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 5:36 pm : link
In comment 13852558 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.



That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.

I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.

The dream scenario for most teams is to be able to transition directly from one franchise QB to the next, and due to the way last season played out, we may have that opportunity. I don't think sticking with Eli for another season or two means that they can't draft a top QB prospect (and likewise, that drafting a top QB prospect doesn't mean they can't stick with Eli for another season or two). In a way, those two scenarios exist independent of each other, largely as a function of Eli's age. Even if there was absolutely nothing to suggest he might be in decline, I think it would be prudent to be looking for his successor anyway.

And I think some fans are waiting for that perfect QB prospect to blow them away - that guy doesn't exist. Every QB prospect has warts. The same thing will happen next year and the year after that. It's a function of the proliferation of the spread offense as well as the 24/7 news cycle which provides so much more access and insight to these players before the draft arrives. All QB prospects have flaws and they always have. We just didn't have the same access to learning about those flaws in the past, and we didn't have platforms like Twitter for those flaws to be amplified over and over again by the echo chamber of football analysts.

And even if there were to be a seemingly flawless prospect - such as Eli himself was or Andrew Luck in more recent years - it's hardly foolproof. Eli has been a great QB for this franchise for 14 years, and has led us to two SB victories, but has also led the NFL in interceptions (and turnovers in general) since he entered the league. Andrew Luck has been very good when healthy, but now may never be the same player again after his most recent injury.

This is an absolute certainty: we will need a new starting QB sometime in the near future. Whether some believe that to be one, two or even three years from now is a matter of some conjecture. But there will be a day where Eli will no longer be our QB, and at 37 years old, that day gets sooner and more real every year.

If Gettleman and Shurmur simply don't believe that any of the QB prospects in this draft have what it takes to succeed, then of course the Giants shouldn't force a QB pick. You shouldn't pick a player at any position, particularly that high in the draft, that you don't feel confident about. But if you do have a conviction about any of them, you shouldn't dismiss your opportunity to secure the successor to your 37 year old QB no matter how much you believe in the incumbent. Even if Eli does find the fountain of youth under Shurmur and with the benefit of an upgraded OL, the QB prospect would retain plenty of value (just look at Garoppolo - the Patriots kept him for three seasons and still got a better pick back for him than the one they spent to draft him).

The only risk is getting that pick wrong, and that risk exists with every player in every draft, no matter what position they play.
RE: RE: RE: Compare  
Essex : 3/6/2018 5:38 pm : link
In comment 13852454 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852425 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?



I'll play!

Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen



Nicely done. One little quibble on size, Rosen is bigger than Darnold.

Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Compare  
Essex : 3/6/2018 5:43 pm : link
In comment 13852570 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 13852454 GFAN52 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852425 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?



I'll play!

Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen



Nicely done. One little quibble on size, Rosen is bigger than Darnold.


Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.


Also, this list is missing behind arm strength and accuracy, the most important attribute you need in a qb, and that is football intelligence. That is Eli's greatest strength and the reason why he is a HOF qb. Brady can recognize defenses, etc. The mental part of this game is just as important as the physical.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
lax counsel : 3/6/2018 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13852569 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13852558 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.



That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.


I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.

The dream scenario for most teams is to be able to transition directly from one franchise QB to the next, and due to the way last season played out, we may have that opportunity. I don't think sticking with Eli for another season or two means that they can't draft a top QB prospect (and likewise, that drafting a top QB prospect doesn't mean they can't stick with Eli for another season or two). In a way, those two scenarios exist independent of each other, largely as a function of Eli's age. Even if there was absolutely nothing to suggest he might be in decline, I think it would be prudent to be looking for his successor anyway.

And I think some fans are waiting for that perfect QB prospect to blow them away - that guy doesn't exist. Every QB prospect has warts. The same thing will happen next year and the year after that. It's a function of the proliferation of the spread offense as well as the 24/7 news cycle which provides so much more access and insight to these players before the draft arrives. All QB prospects have flaws and they always have. We just didn't have the same access to learning about those flaws in the past, and we didn't have platforms like Twitter for those flaws to be amplified over and over again by the echo chamber of football analysts.

And even if there were to be a seemingly flawless prospect - such as Eli himself was or Andrew Luck in more recent years - it's hardly foolproof. Eli has been a great QB for this franchise for 14 years, and has led us to two SB victories, but has also led the NFL in interceptions (and turnovers in general) since he entered the league. Andrew Luck has been very good when healthy, but now may never be the same player again after his most recent injury.

This is an absolute certainty: we will need a new starting QB sometime in the near future. Whether some believe that to be one, two or even three years from now is a matter of some conjecture. But there will be a day where Eli will no longer be our QB, and at 37 years old, that day gets sooner and more real every year.

If Gettleman and Shurmur simply don't believe that any of the QB prospects in this draft have what it takes to succeed, then of course the Giants shouldn't force a QB pick. You shouldn't pick a player at any position, particularly that high in the draft, that you don't feel confident about. But if you do have a conviction about any of them, you shouldn't dismiss your opportunity to secure the successor to your 37 year old QB no matter how much you believe in the incumbent. Even if Eli does find the fountain of youth under Shurmur and with the benefit of an upgraded OL, the QB prospect would retain plenty of value (just look at Garoppolo - the Patriots kept him for three seasons and still got a better pick back for him than the one they spent to draft him).

The only risk is getting that pick wrong, and that risk exists with every player in every draft, no matter what position they play.


Spot on. This is a very succinct way of stating the current situation. I have a hard time believing that the Giants will extend Eli to another contract. So at a maximum, Eli has two years left under center. At that point, the Giants will need a qb one way or another. This notion of a flawless qb prospect is overblown, and frankly, quite absurd. However, should a flawless prospect exist in some future draft, do we really believe the Giants will be the only team looking to trade-up?
RE: You  
NikkiMac : 3/6/2018 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13852421 AcidTest said:
Quote:
don't refuse to take a QB at #2 because of Webb. You do it because none are worth the #2 pick.
y

Why not maybe they like Webb more BS you don’t know anything for sure
Life is complex, dogma is easy  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 6:27 pm : link
It’s not that none of the QB prospects blow people away. At least it’s not just that there’s no prospects that blow people away. I’m sure that some of these guys will become solid players. But the hesitation by some is that there’s a player, albeit at a different position, that does blow people away. The talent differential is so large, not not in comparison to others at his position, but to every other player In the draft that some think it overcomes traditional biases against drafting a special player st his position and may overcome the need to immediately draft a QB, which, by itself, is good strategy for planning two years from now but may not be the most immediate need. Eli’s availability contributes to this, Eli’s age figures into it, it the unusual super,active ability of the RB also plays into it. Hence, co sternatin and controversy.
Selecting Barkley and “punting” on dealing with a clear-cut need  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2018 7:00 pm : link
to find the next starting QB is simply a ballsy strategy.

This is not to blame Eli but to come to grips with the fact that he is a key contributor to the decline of the Offense.

Wait to you all see the warts on the QB that will fall to us when we draft #14 next season or the one after that...
If the Giants pick a QB at two and Webb takes the lead in camp  
wgenesis123 : 3/6/2018 7:09 pm : link
and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!
I'm surprised that people are really willing to accept another year  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/6/2018 7:10 pm : link
with Eli as QB. Manning, with two seconds to release the ball, forcing it to double covered OBJ every passing down.

Eli getting hit and coughing up the football. Eli under pressure throwing the ball up for grabs.

I realize that Eli would look much better if he had a sound O-Line and a dangerous running game. But he doesn't have a sound O-Line.

Do we even know one player who will be starting next year? Surely they're not going to put Flowers out there at LOT again. Try him at another position and if he fails then he's a write-off.

Players that looked promising like Pugh, Richburg and Fluker saw their promising play deteriorate and/or they couldn't stay on the field. And a couple are free agents.

So given the promise of a shaky line next season, an immobile QB like Manning emphasizes the weakness in the protection. A younger quarterback who can sidestep a blitzer or roll out of a collapsing pocket while looking for an open receiver downfield minimizes and even frustrates the defensive pass rush.

Another year like last for Manning just further diminishes him in the eyes of others in the league.

My opinion changes if they sign Norwell and another one or two free agent linemen up a little in age, but sound and with above average ability.
Well I happen to believe that with Barkley, it’s closer  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 7:16 pm : link
To high 20’s that 14. But your point probably remains. Although, it contains an implicit assumption that at 14 the guy we picked is worse than someone in this crop. That’s no surety. Also assumes there’s no Bridgewater or Foles or whoever available. But there is every year. There’s this “this year or nothing” mantra which I think is not true. Especially when you eschew a unique talent differential.
RE: If the Giants pick a QB at two and Webb takes the lead in camp  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/6/2018 8:02 pm : link
In comment 13852620 wgenesis123 said:
Quote:
and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!


So what you're banking on is that there's a chance Davis Webb could win a camp battle, therefore the team should pass on a better prospect.

Look, I get that people have their minds apparently made up on these QBs, but Davis Webb wasn't some great prospect last year. He was an afterthought behind a couple of guys who everyone agreed would need to spend a year on the bench.

And he wouldn't be ahead of any of the guys at the top this year. He wouldn't even be ahead of Allen, and all he's done is be tall and have a big arm.
High 20s? So we turn into approx the 6th best team in NFL...ok sure  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2018 8:06 pm : link
Nevertheless, under your scenario it is now even riskier to find our next QB, or more expensive to move.

But if you think we can take Barkley and squeeze all remaining talent out of Eli to the tune of the 6th best team this next season then I would agree we should roll that dice.

Although I think that is awfully aggressive...
It does require a modicum of OL improvement  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 8:15 pm : link
ONJ, Engram, Eli, and Barkley.
I should say so. As much as I would love Barkley I can’t get  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2018 8:30 pm : link
my head around the concept that he adds the most value even though selecting him creates significantly more risk at QB for the future, and possibly very near future. And since QB is simply a more valuable cog than RB, we are going to be worse off.

And I realize many of you all have more conviction than I do that Eli will hold up. And to that point it appears as if the Giant brass does as well.

Man, I hope I’m wrong,,,

RE: If the Giants pick a QB at two and Webb takes the lead in camp  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 9:10 pm : link
In comment 13852620 wgenesis123 said:
Quote:
and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!

The Patriots spent a late 2nd on a QB, kept him for 3.5 of the 4 cheap years on his rookie contract, and STILL got a higher pick back when they traded him than the one they used to draft him. It really wouldn't kill you to actually pay attention to what happens in the NFL if you're going to continue to express your opinion.
the question isnt webb or eli  
msh : 3/7/2018 8:03 am : link
its the various downsides to everyone of the consensus big 4 QB's in this draft,none of the draft gurus are able to agree on the pecking order or whether any of them are the franchise QB's or not in fact some have jackson in the top 4 and mayfield way down,it probably would have been rosen but in new york facing the defences in the nfc east an injury prone QB with concussion history is a total non starter

its not burying your head if you dont believe any of them are that good,with the QB guru coach in shurmur who just took case keenum to the championship game what do you think he could do with eli?.

webb was widely tipped as having the talent but needing the development and he has a rifle for an arm,and smart player so that is plan b if eli truly was to blame for last years record (which i dont think he was and clearly neither did gettleman)

this is the reason why many of us want barkley they have a stable enough QB situation to pass on the QB crop anyway,you have major concerns with EVERYONE of them,barkley allows eli to hand the ball off more and extend his career not having to carry the team solely as he has done.his presence will force teams to pull guys out of coverage to stop him which will gives that receiving corps more favourable matchups thats a win win situation

could all be for nothing as the browns could take barkley at 1,if they do i would hope they trade the giants to get back in at 2 and take their QB at 4 the giants can then take one of chubb,fitzpatrick or nelson and maybe use one of the extra picks from that to take one of the other RB's in the second round if they came out with nelson and guice/michel and extra picks besides that will make a huge difference to the giants chances
RE: RE: If the Giants pick a QB at two and Webb takes the lead in camp  
Mike in NY : 3/7/2018 8:13 am : link
In comment 13852727 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13852620 wgenesis123 said:


Quote:


and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!


The Patriots spent a late 2nd on a QB, kept him for 3.5 of the 4 cheap years on his rookie contract, and STILL got a higher pick back when they traded him than the one they used to draft him. It really wouldn't kill you to actually pay attention to what happens in the NFL if you're going to continue to express your opinion.


The only pick higher than #2 overall is #1 overall. You aren’t suggesting using #34 to select a QB and letting him compete with Webb. If the Giants are not convinced that any of the QB’s are a substantial improvement over Webb, I don’t want to see one forced at #2 overall when we can possibly trade down for multiple high picks or take a different position that we know will substantially upgrade what we currently have
Once again...  
EricJ : 3/7/2018 8:14 am : link
They have no basis at all to determine whether Webb will be a solid NFL starter. He has yet to play a game and all of his practices have been with the JV team.

We know just a little bit more about his on field ability today than we did a year ago.
RE: Once again...  
cjd2404 : 3/7/2018 8:43 am : link
In comment 13852920 EricJ said:
Quote:
They have no basis at all to determine whether Webb will be a solid NFL starter. He has yet to play a game and all of his practices have been with the JV team.

We know just a little bit more about his on field ability today than we did a year ago.


Please point me to the youtube clips of any one of the college QBs playing in the NFL I did a search and can't find any

I can youtube Webb clips from college just like this years draft. PS has already said he watched the JV tape, talked with everyone in the building, etc to get a handle on Webb's abilities.

The logic of Webb has no bearing on the number 2 pick is also faulty.

Let's roll back history to 1983. How was Phil Simms as a QB then? The answer is not very good. I bet they looked at him and that helped them to determine whether or not they were going to draft Marino or Kelly.

The giants absolutely will look at their roster and determine area of absolute need and place a value on it. That will entail evaluating the position and the current roster at that position.
If they feel QB is the greatest need based on that, and the player they want is available, great go for it.

If they have that list but have a college player listed as a "must have" regardless of position (BPA) then they'll draft that player.
RE: RE: Every guy on the Giants  
chuckydee9 : 3/7/2018 9:01 am : link
In comment 13852446 section125 said:
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In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:


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making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..



Gettleman had Newton, why would he draft a QB? Shurmur had Bradford and Bridgewater, why would he need a QB?

Think before you post.

Yes because bradford and bridgewater are the end all solution to QB problems especially at the beginning of last year.. and regardless of position a GM going into the draft looks at all possible top players.. just because they have newton doesn't mean they don't properly evaluate a top 100 player.. At this point it only makes sense that DG says good things about Webb regardless of what he has seen or hasn't seen.. I doubt he has seen much because Webb isn't allowed to show anything or practise in front of Giants staff.. and at the time DG joined he had bigger things to worry about..
RE: RE: RE: Every guy on the Giants  
chuckydee9 : 3/7/2018 9:04 am : link
In comment 13852442 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13852358 TMS said:


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In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:


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making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..

How do you know what their opinion of Webb is ? Everything I read is that it is positive, Stop the BS.


There is absolutely no benefit to having anything but glowing reviews come out about Webb. If they want to draft a QB, praising Webb helps mask their intentions. If they don't have a conviction about any of the QBs in this draft, praising Webb helps his confidence. If they are confident in Webb as their future QB, then of course they're going to praise him - why would they say anything negative?

I'm not saying that their praise is necessarily some sort of smokescreen, but I don't think you can draw any conclusion at all about it since there is not a scenario at all where they'd say anything but overwhelmingly positive things about Webb. It's the appropriate answer in all potential scenarios, so it means absolutely nothing.

If you think the front office and/or coaching staff has some sort of obligation to make sure you know how they honestly feel about anything as they lead up to the draft, you're just being naive.


+1.. this basic concept isn't going to go threw the Webb dreamers... Pat Shummer hasn't seen anything of Webb since he joined.. not one second of real football or even live practice.. how would his opinion have changed since the pre-draft?
RE: RE: Should have played him  
GiantsfaninNE : 3/7/2018 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13852230 BamaBlue said:
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In comment 13852219 Rflairr said:


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And the new regime would have something to go on



+1 Unfortunately, we are where we are.


+2 And dumb decisions like leaving Webb on the sidelines are why we have the new regime...
RE: RE: Should have played him  
GiantsfaninNE : 3/7/2018 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13852230 BamaBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 13852219 Rflairr said:


Quote:


And the new regime would have something to go on



+1 Unfortunately, we are where we are.


+2 And dumb decisions like leaving Webb on the sidelines are why we have the new regime...
everyones opinion on Davis Webb is better  
Jersey55 : 3/7/2018 4:33 pm : link
than mine and most everybody else too since none of us have seen what he can do, one of the biggest stupid screwups that the Giants have done in recent memory.....
Sure. I mean there is plenty of evidence to support this  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/7/2018 4:41 pm : link
with Webb's grand total of zero regular season snaps despite our worst season ever last season. Good stuff.
Wouldn’t they know more about Webb  
Bill L : 3/7/2018 7:53 pm : link
Than they know about any qb you could name in the draft?
aren't the coaches who would know  
fkap : 3/7/2018 9:10 pm : link
all about Webb now all working elsewhere or unemployed?

I'm sure there's lots of practice tape on him, and the Giants know a lot about him that they didn't know a year ago, but it still remains that most of the coaches weren't here last year (two assistants according to Eric's coaching list). the Maras and the scouting dept are still here, but how much contact any of them really had with Webb is unknown.

those who interacted the most with Webb in a football sense are gone. The players are still here.
RE: Wouldn’t they know more about Webb  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/7/2018 9:14 pm : link
In comment 13854169 Bill L said:
Quote:
Than they know about any qb you could name in the draft?


How much can you know about a QB who hasn't played a competitive football game since 2016 in college and barely worked with the first team depth chart?

Then only thing they can know are his practice habits and personality.
But even if every single person who knew him was gone  
Bill L : 3/7/2018 9:14 pm : link
And all the practice tape destroyed, they wouldn’t know *less* because they have the same college info that they have for all the draft qbs. So *anything* they have from the past year is an add on.
iOw, the argument that they don’t know what they have because he  
Bill L : 3/7/2018 9:15 pm : link
Never played last year, doesn’t hold water when looking at him in the context of the draft qbs
RE: aren't the coaches who would know  
Kev in Cali : 3/7/2018 9:19 pm : link
In comment 13854267 fkap said:
Quote:
all about Webb now all working elsewhere or unemployed?

I'm sure there's lots of practice tape on him, and the Giants know a lot about him that they didn't know a year ago, but it still remains that most of the coaches weren't here last year (two assistants according to Eric's coaching list). the Maras and the scouting dept are still here, but how much contact any of them really had with Webb is unknown.

those who interacted the most with Webb in a football sense are gone. The players are still here.


I think it's a good situation to have. Old regime out, new in....they will give it a completely unbiased look at the kid. I believe what they see in Webb is pivotal to the future of the offense....

There are just so many variables it's that it's fun to discuss, but nobody knows except DG and his staff and we will all learn on draft day what they were thinking on the current roster....
I’m down on Webb  
5BowlsSoon : 3/7/2018 9:25 pm : link
Let’s get the stud RB or some stud OL guy.
I think the Giants overall  
fkap : 3/7/2018 9:34 pm : link
do know a lot more about Webb than they did a year ago. That's undeniable. But that needs to be tempered with the reality that most of those making the decisions on the draft/planning for the future are making those decisions based on tape and the opinions of others rather than first hand knowledge.
When I realized the Giants season was over  
chopperhatch : 3/7/2018 10:14 pm : link
(not even lying, but was resigned to it after the Detroit loss) I had my hopes that they would lose enough to get a QB to succeed Eli. Then I was thrilled that they wound up with the 2nd pick in the draft so they had a real shot at Darnold who reminds me so much of Eli.

Now I have softened my stance quite a bit. Darnold really threw me off by not throwing at the combine and the rumors of his interviews being not great. Yes I know Eli didnt throw, but he didnt HAVE to throw. He was going to go top 3 no matter what. 4 of these qbs have been rumored as a 1st pick. Combine that with Barkley and theres a fairly solid chance that Darnold falls out of the top 5. Competitors dont let circumstance dictate their destiny.

Conversely, Rosen looked great at the combine, smiling, chatting and looking like he wanted to be there. That and he looked great throwing the ball....even next to Allen.

Mayfield looked ready at both the Senior Bowl and Combine showing great polish, mobility and accuracy.

But we currently have Webb, who is apparently at the facility every day with Eli, jas a big, big arm, is a coach's son and great at breaking down schemes and philosophy. If he is progressing well as we have been led to believe, then having him sit for another year or two behind Eli allows him to soak up even more. When he is ready to play, we will have to make a decision on extending him and can get away with something fairly modest depending on his production.


At this point I am completely spun as to what I want in the draft because there are so many good options. The biggest question would be if Allen is taken first overall, do I want Barkley (Hernandez in the 2nd), Darnold, or try and trade back hoping Nelson is there and praying for Michel in the 2nd.

Should be a fun month and a half.
If they take a QB @2  
Kev in Cali : 3/7/2018 11:11 pm : link
They are saying Webb isn't it and there isn't enough room for two, essentially rookie, QB's on the roster (well there is, but you get my point). Focus on the O-line, draft Barkley if available, and build on that. You don't need a perfect QB to win it all. Hell, Bortles shined at times and still gave the team chance to win. Dilfer got it done. Alex Smith was close, and Eli during his SB winning seasons showed that he wasn't lights out all year long....point being, you don't need a Rodgers, Brees, or Brady to win....

The supporting cast is more important than the one guy behind center. As great as Eli has been in the past, he will never win another SB or even make a playoff run with the team he had in front of him the past few years. A great O-line could/can mask the flaws of a QB with an above average brain and substandard passing skills (NFL wise).
Kev  
fkap : 3/8/2018 8:34 am : link
Drafting a QB, and keeping Eli, does put Webb in a bit of a bind, but it's not impossible. Webb would have to show enough in preseason to prove he's at least good backup material. If Eli leaves after this season, we're going to need a backup to this years drafted QB who presumably becomes the starter (I don't want a QB at 2 who isn't ready after a year). Webb would be a cheap option.

It would mean keeping 3 QBs again, but that's a real possibility anyway.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Section331 : 3/8/2018 11:19 am : link
In comment 13852569 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.


I completely agree with all of that. The only reason NYG don’t take a QB is if Gettleman and Shurmer don’t think any of those available are the right choice. I like Davis Weeb, and I’m slightly higher on his potential than most, but fans thinking that NYG are passing on a QB because they have Davis Effing Webb are living in a fantasy land. Regardless of what Giants brass says, there is no way they are pinning their future on Webb.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Compare  
Section331 : 3/8/2018 11:24 am : link
In comment 13852570 Essex said:
Quote:

Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.


Hey, I agree. I’ve regularly defended Rosen when posters questioned his athleticism, but all of the QBs listed are good athletes. Allen is a freak, 6’5, 230, and ran the 3rd best 40 at the combine. Darnold also tested well, and was a highly regarded point guard in HS. Davis Webb is a plus athlete as well, so it comes down to Rosen and Mayfield, and I give a slight edge to Mayfield (mainly because he ran a bit in college). Either way, there isn’t a lot of daylight between these guys, imo.
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