Dilfer feels UCLA quarterback Josh Rosen would be the most optimal fit for the Giants if general manager Dave Gettleman wanted to go that route in Round 1, but doesn’t necessary agree that New York must select a quarterback.
Rather, Dilfer says, the Giants already their Eli Manning heir on the roster in the form of 2017 third-round pick Davis Webb.
“I think they have their future quarterback,” Dilfer told NJ Advance Media. “Given enough time and given that they have a two-time Super Bowl champion to bridge a couple years to integrate that guy in.
“Giving Davis a year or two more to develop and learn the ropes and kind of establish himself in the locker room and play well in preseason, it helps your team. Now you don’t have to go overpay at the position, or draft and roll the dice.”
Dilfer also believes the Giants are in good shape with Manning, who has already been named the team’s starter in 2018 and potentially beyond.
“I really like the combination of Eli and Davis Webb,” Dilfer said. “I might be on an island there, but I think Eli still has a lot of good stuff in the tank. Especially considering so much of this game now is from the neck up. Eli has plenty of talent, plenty of juice. He just needs more answers to the test. He needs to be able to win the game intellectually as much as physically. I think this system will allow him to do that.”
I agree with Dilfer at this point in time, and I'm in the "Barkley, or trade back if he's gone" camp.
Dilfer on Webb - (
New Window )
They will pass on a QB if they don't like any of the QBs.
I don't see how they can't like any of the top 3 guys.
People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?
If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?
Quote:
I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.
People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?
If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?
They could really like Webb.
But it's a tough sell to me to pass on Darnold, Allen or Rosen because of Davis Webb.
I think some fans just want Barkley so badly that they're rationalizing not taking a QB anyway they can.
It would be foolish to pass on a QB picking at 2 with a 37 year old QB other than you don't like any of them.
If they trade out of 2, and the QB picked at 2 becomes an All-Pro, I guarantee you the people complaining the loudest would be the same ones who are hoping for a trade down now.
Quote:
I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.
People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?
If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?
I think, if they believe that Webb is the guy, we should hope he emerges sooner than two years from now. Otherwise, he'll only have one year left on his rookie deal which is problematic on two fronts: for one thing, it means they'll have essentially thrown away the benefit of having a young QB and being able to build a roster around his lower salary; secondly, they'll have to make a long-term decision on Webb with only one year of live game experience and without a safety net.
It would be great if Webb was the next franchise QB and he's already drafted and the succession plan is already in place. But it's really just wishful thinking at this point, whether that comes from talking heads like Dilfer or other Giants fans directly. Neither Gettleman nor Shurmur have any reason but to sing his praises at this point, but just remember that the entire league (including the Giants) passed on Webb twice, and nothing since then has provided a reason for anyone to feel more confident about Webb than they should about any other 3rd round pick (and I'm speaking about 3rd round picks in general, not even referencing Reese's abysmal draft record with that round).
It's not impossible that Webb becomes the Giants' next QB. But it's wildly optimistic to depend on it.
+1 Unfortunately, we are where we are.
Again, rationalize it all day long. At the end of the day, this is a new regime who didn't pick Webb. They may like him. They may not. But Webb was considered a PROJECT. Yes, we have Eli for 2 more years so their is time.
But I can't get past the fact that the Giants are picking at #2 and their are 3 QBs who can be had without giving up the farm. Passing up on that because of Webb is foolish, IMO.
Half of BBI pointed to his work with Case Keenum as the reason why we should bring him here. Now that we have a blank canvas in the form of an unknown but talented 3rd round pick from last year, everyone writes him off? No one wants to see what Webb and Shurmur can do?
Yes, the Giants do whatever Trent Dilfer says...
With all the detailed analysis of every single draftable college football player: What are the chances that Webb turns out to be this hidden gem from 2017 draft vs just another guy?
Geno Smith's summons was McAdoo's call -- and hasn't McAdoo been completely discredited?
Stupidity and lack of common sense
That’s why a)Reese and McAdoo had to go and b) Spags was not really considered for HC.
With all the detailed analysis of every single draftable college football player: What are the chances that Webb turns out to be this hidden gem from 2017 draft vs just another guy?
Webb was definitely higher-rated than Nassib. He could have gone in the 2nd round but fell to the Giants in the 3rd. Nassib was a 4th rounder and I think went right where he was graded. I'm pretty sure the Giants knew he was a backup when they took him, whereas Webb was selected to be groomed behind Eli. I think it was also known that Webb would need a couple years to sit which is why he wasn't higher rated, so it just happened to be an ideal fit for the Giants with Eli still being only 36 and apparently playing at a high level in 2016. I don't think Webb will ever be an all-pro, but with the right development and the right system and the right players around him I think he could win football games.
I’d like them to go Barkley, but if those who get paid to run the Giants feel one of these 2018 QBs is worth the 2nd overall, they should go for it. I just hope it’s not Rosen.
Quote:
on one of the shiny new toys in favor of a guy who couldnt see the field ahead of Geno Smith they better be right. Or this new regime will be gone in a cpl yrs...
Geno Smith's summons was McAdoo's call -- and hasn't McAdoo been completely discredited?
Fair point. Here's the counterpoint: Davis Webb was a Jerry Reese 3rd round pick -- and hasn't Reese been completely discredited?
That's assuming Barkley doesn't go to the Browns with the first pick.
The only reason to pass on a QB this year is if they feel none of them are any good. The GM does not have the advantage of seeing Webb 1st hand to make the call. There may be others in the org who say he is the real deal but if my job was on the line I would want to make a more educated decision. Webb was a 3rd round pick so some teams with QB needs passed on him 3 times for some reason. If I am the GM I evaluate the draft as if I don't have a QB of the future and draft by that strategy.
It would be great if Webb were the guy. But to bank on that when you are in a position that has only come to the Giants twice in 37 years, and not get a quarterback from a class that until recently was considered a very good crop, seems a colossal mistake.
If Webb turns out to be the guy, and Darnold or Rosen or Webb, also turn out to be the guy....I'd say that is a great scenario.
I trust Gettleman. If they pass on a quarterback, it will be because they don't think they are a correct value for that pick.
I don't believe it will because they have a conviction that Webb is the next guy.
Quote:
In comment 13852189 EddieNYG said:
Quote:
I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.
People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?
If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?
I think, if they believe that Webb is the guy, we should hope he emerges sooner than two years from now. Otherwise, he'll only have one year left on his rookie deal which is problematic on two fronts: for one thing, it means they'll have essentially thrown away the benefit of having a young QB and being able to build a roster around his lower salary; secondly, they'll have to make a long-term decision on Webb with only one year of live game experience and without a safety net.
It would be great if Webb was the next franchise QB and he's already drafted and the succession plan is already in place. But it's really just wishful thinking at this point, whether that comes from talking heads like Dilfer or other Giants fans directly. Neither Gettleman nor Shurmur have any reason but to sing his praises at this point, but just remember that the entire league (including the Giants) passed on Webb twice, and nothing since then has provided a reason for anyone to feel more confident about Webb than they should about any other 3rd round pick (and I'm speaking about 3rd round picks in general, not even referencing Reese's abysmal draft record with that round).
It's not impossible that Webb becomes the Giants' next QB. But it's wildly optimistic to depend on it.
And as Mayock said, "If they DON'T love one of the QBs who's available to them, they look at Barkley, Chubb" -- or trading down.
Until then, anyone like Dilfer, Raanan or whoever says or writes that they know what the Giants are thinking in regard to this should be laughed at and mocked mercilessly.
And the Giants should give away NOTHING about what they're thinking. Let's hope they have a tighter ship this year, because I wouldn't be surprised if the Browns were open for business on trades for the 1. Regardless of who the Browns (or whoever) take first, the Giants SHOULD be able to get a player THEY LOVE at 2.
Ding ding ding
Quote:
making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..
How do you know what their opinion of Webb is ? Everything I read is that it is positive, Stop the BS.
As I mentioned they all passed on him 3 times at least.. When everyone was looking forward to having a future QB play snaps in a meaningless season.. both his HCs couldn't bring him to take a snap.. Actions speak much louder than words.. there is nothing to like there.. may be in 2-3 more years.. but no one right now knows anything about him..
As I've said all along, if the Giants don't take a QB at 2, it won't be because they have faith in Davis Webb, it will be because they don't have faith in any of the guys available.
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers
How would you rank them?
The Giants passed on Victor Cruz in all 7 rounds.
Shurmur and Shula know QBs and have PROVEN to develop them. Eli has two more years. Webb on a rookie contract with no wasted space on Geno. QBs clearly don't need to be Tom Brady to win anymore. These offenses are something else.
That should be taken into consideration.
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers
How would you rank them?
I'll play!
Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
None of us know what the Giants truly think about Webb.
Maybe the Giants defense knows what we need to know.
Quote:
making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..
How do you know what their opinion of Webb is ? Everything I read is that it is positive, Stop the BS.
There is absolutely no benefit to having anything but glowing reviews come out about Webb. If they want to draft a QB, praising Webb helps mask their intentions. If they don't have a conviction about any of the QBs in this draft, praising Webb helps his confidence. If they are confident in Webb as their future QB, then of course they're going to praise him - why would they say anything negative?
I'm not saying that their praise is necessarily some sort of smokescreen, but I don't think you can draw any conclusion at all about it since there is not a scenario at all where they'd say anything but overwhelmingly positive things about Webb. It's the appropriate answer in all potential scenarios, so it means absolutely nothing.
If you think the front office and/or coaching staff has some sort of obligation to make sure you know how they honestly feel about anything as they lead up to the draft, you're just being naive.
Gettleman had Newton, why would he draft a QB? Shurmur had Bradford and Bridgewater, why would he need a QB?
Think before you post.
Quote:
Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers
How would you rank them?
I'll play!
Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Nicely done. One little quibble on size, Rosen is bigger than Darnold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_knliyjCihw
NYG will get the best QB or best player in the draft, well put.
Quote:
I think some fans just want Barkley so badly that they're rationalizing not taking a QB anyway they can.
Ding ding ding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_knliyjCihw
Great video. Webb would be very easy to root for.
Quote:
In comment 13852189 EddieNYG said:
Quote:
I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.
People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?
If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?
They could really like Webb.
But it's a tough sell to me to pass on Darnold, Allen or Rosen because of Davis Webb.
I think some fans just want Barkley so badly that they're rationalizing not taking a QB anyway they can.
It would be foolish to pass on a QB picking at 2 with a 37 year old QB other than you don't like any of them.
If they trade out of 2, and the QB picked at 2 becomes an All-Pro, I guarantee you the people complaining the loudest would be the same ones who are hoping for a trade down now.
Yep. Nailed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_knliyjCihw
Good video. Webb looks athletic and seems to have a great attitude.
Most of you know I am not a Webb fan, I saw him play a lot in college and was surprised he was picked as high as round 3. That being said, a late third round pick is not what I would call a premium pick on a qb, it's 100% a lottery ticket. I also believe if he's not picked by the Giants at 87, he falls into the forth round, which is Nassib territory. In fairness to Webb, best case scenario would be him as a franchise qb, and I'm not simply speaking about a medicore qb, but a legit franchise Qb. However, I don't see how it's really even disputable amongst fans that it's a long shot that he ends up anything other than a legitimate backup qb.
If they take one at number two, then either that QB or Webb could be the quarterback of the future. There's a better chance of one of the two quarterbacks panning out than putting all of their eggs in one basket.
Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.
The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.
Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.
The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.
Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?
Quote:
This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.
Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.
The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.
Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?
It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.
And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
Did they cross paths at a QB camp? Does he have buddies on the Giants who shared impressions of Webb?
Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.
The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.
Good post. Thanks for unpacking this assumption. It's just that -- not a 'fact.'
How is adding Darnold a good investment in terms of being pro ready if we are saying how green Webb was or is?
The argument for Rosen or even Allen might be plausible because at least those guys ran more of a pro style offense.
And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
I can't conclude that Eli sucked because I believe that any QB last year would have been subject to lousy play calling, backup receivers and no time to throw the ball. If DG and Shumur get this fixed, we can see how Eli performs.
I will grant you that with these issues, Eli did not play well.
Quote:
Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers
How would you rank them?
I'll play!
Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.
And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.
Very true. I expected Darnold to come in a little bigger than Rosen (at least weightwise), and forgot the combine measurements.
Quote:
In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.
Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.
The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.
Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?
It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.
And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
Quote:
It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.
And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.
I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.
The dream scenario for most teams is to be able to transition directly from one franchise QB to the next, and due to the way last season played out, we may have that opportunity. I don't think sticking with Eli for another season or two means that they can't draft a top QB prospect (and likewise, that drafting a top QB prospect doesn't mean they can't stick with Eli for another season or two). In a way, those two scenarios exist independent of each other, largely as a function of Eli's age. Even if there was absolutely nothing to suggest he might be in decline, I think it would be prudent to be looking for his successor anyway.
And I think some fans are waiting for that perfect QB prospect to blow them away - that guy doesn't exist. Every QB prospect has warts. The same thing will happen next year and the year after that. It's a function of the proliferation of the spread offense as well as the 24/7 news cycle which provides so much more access and insight to these players before the draft arrives. All QB prospects have flaws and they always have. We just didn't have the same access to learning about those flaws in the past, and we didn't have platforms like Twitter for those flaws to be amplified over and over again by the echo chamber of football analysts.
And even if there were to be a seemingly flawless prospect - such as Eli himself was or Andrew Luck in more recent years - it's hardly foolproof. Eli has been a great QB for this franchise for 14 years, and has led us to two SB victories, but has also led the NFL in interceptions (and turnovers in general) since he entered the league. Andrew Luck has been very good when healthy, but now may never be the same player again after his most recent injury.
This is an absolute certainty: we will need a new starting QB sometime in the near future. Whether some believe that to be one, two or even three years from now is a matter of some conjecture. But there will be a day where Eli will no longer be our QB, and at 37 years old, that day gets sooner and more real every year.
If Gettleman and Shurmur simply don't believe that any of the QB prospects in this draft have what it takes to succeed, then of course the Giants shouldn't force a QB pick. You shouldn't pick a player at any position, particularly that high in the draft, that you don't feel confident about. But if you do have a conviction about any of them, you shouldn't dismiss your opportunity to secure the successor to your 37 year old QB no matter how much you believe in the incumbent. Even if Eli does find the fountain of youth under Shurmur and with the benefit of an upgraded OL, the QB prospect would retain plenty of value (just look at Garoppolo - the Patriots kept him for three seasons and still got a better pick back for him than the one they spent to draft him).
The only risk is getting that pick wrong, and that risk exists with every player in every draft, no matter what position they play.
Quote:
In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers
How would you rank them?
I'll play!
Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Nicely done. One little quibble on size, Rosen is bigger than Darnold.
Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.
Quote:
In comment 13852425 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers
How would you rank them?
I'll play!
Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Nicely done. One little quibble on size, Rosen is bigger than Darnold.
Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.
Also, this list is missing behind arm strength and accuracy, the most important attribute you need in a qb, and that is football intelligence. That is Eli's greatest strength and the reason why he is a HOF qb. Brady can recognize defenses, etc. The mental part of this game is just as important as the physical.
Quote:
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.
And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.
I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.
The dream scenario for most teams is to be able to transition directly from one franchise QB to the next, and due to the way last season played out, we may have that opportunity. I don't think sticking with Eli for another season or two means that they can't draft a top QB prospect (and likewise, that drafting a top QB prospect doesn't mean they can't stick with Eli for another season or two). In a way, those two scenarios exist independent of each other, largely as a function of Eli's age. Even if there was absolutely nothing to suggest he might be in decline, I think it would be prudent to be looking for his successor anyway.
And I think some fans are waiting for that perfect QB prospect to blow them away - that guy doesn't exist. Every QB prospect has warts. The same thing will happen next year and the year after that. It's a function of the proliferation of the spread offense as well as the 24/7 news cycle which provides so much more access and insight to these players before the draft arrives. All QB prospects have flaws and they always have. We just didn't have the same access to learning about those flaws in the past, and we didn't have platforms like Twitter for those flaws to be amplified over and over again by the echo chamber of football analysts.
And even if there were to be a seemingly flawless prospect - such as Eli himself was or Andrew Luck in more recent years - it's hardly foolproof. Eli has been a great QB for this franchise for 14 years, and has led us to two SB victories, but has also led the NFL in interceptions (and turnovers in general) since he entered the league. Andrew Luck has been very good when healthy, but now may never be the same player again after his most recent injury.
This is an absolute certainty: we will need a new starting QB sometime in the near future. Whether some believe that to be one, two or even three years from now is a matter of some conjecture. But there will be a day where Eli will no longer be our QB, and at 37 years old, that day gets sooner and more real every year.
If Gettleman and Shurmur simply don't believe that any of the QB prospects in this draft have what it takes to succeed, then of course the Giants shouldn't force a QB pick. You shouldn't pick a player at any position, particularly that high in the draft, that you don't feel confident about. But if you do have a conviction about any of them, you shouldn't dismiss your opportunity to secure the successor to your 37 year old QB no matter how much you believe in the incumbent. Even if Eli does find the fountain of youth under Shurmur and with the benefit of an upgraded OL, the QB prospect would retain plenty of value (just look at Garoppolo - the Patriots kept him for three seasons and still got a better pick back for him than the one they spent to draft him).
The only risk is getting that pick wrong, and that risk exists with every player in every draft, no matter what position they play.
Spot on. This is a very succinct way of stating the current situation. I have a hard time believing that the Giants will extend Eli to another contract. So at a maximum, Eli has two years left under center. At that point, the Giants will need a qb one way or another. This notion of a flawless qb prospect is overblown, and frankly, quite absurd. However, should a flawless prospect exist in some future draft, do we really believe the Giants will be the only team looking to trade-up?
Why not maybe they like Webb more BS you don’t know anything for sure
This is not to blame Eli but to come to grips with the fact that he is a key contributor to the decline of the Offense.
Wait to you all see the warts on the QB that will fall to us when we draft #14 next season or the one after that...
Eli getting hit and coughing up the football. Eli under pressure throwing the ball up for grabs.
I realize that Eli would look much better if he had a sound O-Line and a dangerous running game. But he doesn't have a sound O-Line.
Do we even know one player who will be starting next year? Surely they're not going to put Flowers out there at LOT again. Try him at another position and if he fails then he's a write-off.
Players that looked promising like Pugh, Richburg and Fluker saw their promising play deteriorate and/or they couldn't stay on the field. And a couple are free agents.
So given the promise of a shaky line next season, an immobile QB like Manning emphasizes the weakness in the protection. A younger quarterback who can sidestep a blitzer or roll out of a collapsing pocket while looking for an open receiver downfield minimizes and even frustrates the defensive pass rush.
Another year like last for Manning just further diminishes him in the eyes of others in the league.
My opinion changes if they sign Norwell and another one or two free agent linemen up a little in age, but sound and with above average ability.
So what you're banking on is that there's a chance Davis Webb could win a camp battle, therefore the team should pass on a better prospect.
Look, I get that people have their minds apparently made up on these QBs, but Davis Webb wasn't some great prospect last year. He was an afterthought behind a couple of guys who everyone agreed would need to spend a year on the bench.
And he wouldn't be ahead of any of the guys at the top this year. He wouldn't even be ahead of Allen, and all he's done is be tall and have a big arm.
But if you think we can take Barkley and squeeze all remaining talent out of Eli to the tune of the 6th best team this next season then I would agree we should roll that dice.
Although I think that is awfully aggressive...
And I realize many of you all have more conviction than I do that Eli will hold up. And to that point it appears as if the Giant brass does as well.
Man, I hope I’m wrong,,,
The Patriots spent a late 2nd on a QB, kept him for 3.5 of the 4 cheap years on his rookie contract, and STILL got a higher pick back when they traded him than the one they used to draft him. It really wouldn't kill you to actually pay attention to what happens in the NFL if you're going to continue to express your opinion.
its not burying your head if you dont believe any of them are that good,with the QB guru coach in shurmur who just took case keenum to the championship game what do you think he could do with eli?.
webb was widely tipped as having the talent but needing the development and he has a rifle for an arm,and smart player so that is plan b if eli truly was to blame for last years record (which i dont think he was and clearly neither did gettleman)
this is the reason why many of us want barkley they have a stable enough QB situation to pass on the QB crop anyway,you have major concerns with EVERYONE of them,barkley allows eli to hand the ball off more and extend his career not having to carry the team solely as he has done.his presence will force teams to pull guys out of coverage to stop him which will gives that receiving corps more favourable matchups thats a win win situation
could all be for nothing as the browns could take barkley at 1,if they do i would hope they trade the giants to get back in at 2 and take their QB at 4 the giants can then take one of chubb,fitzpatrick or nelson and maybe use one of the extra picks from that to take one of the other RB's in the second round if they came out with nelson and guice/michel and extra picks besides that will make a huge difference to the giants chances
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and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!
The Patriots spent a late 2nd on a QB, kept him for 3.5 of the 4 cheap years on his rookie contract, and STILL got a higher pick back when they traded him than the one they used to draft him. It really wouldn't kill you to actually pay attention to what happens in the NFL if you're going to continue to express your opinion.
The only pick higher than #2 overall is #1 overall. You aren’t suggesting using #34 to select a QB and letting him compete with Webb. If the Giants are not convinced that any of the QB’s are a substantial improvement over Webb, I don’t want to see one forced at #2 overall when we can possibly trade down for multiple high picks or take a different position that we know will substantially upgrade what we currently have
We know just a little bit more about his on field ability today than we did a year ago.
We know just a little bit more about his on field ability today than we did a year ago.
Please point me to the youtube clips of any one of the college QBs playing in the NFL I did a search and can't find any
I can youtube Webb clips from college just like this years draft. PS has already said he watched the JV tape, talked with everyone in the building, etc to get a handle on Webb's abilities.
The logic of Webb has no bearing on the number 2 pick is also faulty.
Let's roll back history to 1983. How was Phil Simms as a QB then? The answer is not very good. I bet they looked at him and that helped them to determine whether or not they were going to draft Marino or Kelly.
The giants absolutely will look at their roster and determine area of absolute need and place a value on it. That will entail evaluating the position and the current roster at that position.
If they feel QB is the greatest need based on that, and the player they want is available, great go for it.
If they have that list but have a college player listed as a "must have" regardless of position (BPA) then they'll draft that player.
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making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..
Gettleman had Newton, why would he draft a QB? Shurmur had Bradford and Bridgewater, why would he need a QB?
Think before you post.
Yes because bradford and bridgewater are the end all solution to QB problems especially at the beginning of last year.. and regardless of position a GM going into the draft looks at all possible top players.. just because they have newton doesn't mean they don't properly evaluate a top 100 player.. At this point it only makes sense that DG says good things about Webb regardless of what he has seen or hasn't seen.. I doubt he has seen much because Webb isn't allowed to show anything or practise in front of Giants staff.. and at the time DG joined he had bigger things to worry about..
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In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:
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making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..
How do you know what their opinion of Webb is ? Everything I read is that it is positive, Stop the BS.
There is absolutely no benefit to having anything but glowing reviews come out about Webb. If they want to draft a QB, praising Webb helps mask their intentions. If they don't have a conviction about any of the QBs in this draft, praising Webb helps his confidence. If they are confident in Webb as their future QB, then of course they're going to praise him - why would they say anything negative?
I'm not saying that their praise is necessarily some sort of smokescreen, but I don't think you can draw any conclusion at all about it since there is not a scenario at all where they'd say anything but overwhelmingly positive things about Webb. It's the appropriate answer in all potential scenarios, so it means absolutely nothing.
If you think the front office and/or coaching staff has some sort of obligation to make sure you know how they honestly feel about anything as they lead up to the draft, you're just being naive.
+1.. this basic concept isn't going to go threw the Webb dreamers... Pat Shummer hasn't seen anything of Webb since he joined.. not one second of real football or even live practice.. how would his opinion have changed since the pre-draft?
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And the new regime would have something to go on
+1 Unfortunately, we are where we are.
+2 And dumb decisions like leaving Webb on the sidelines are why we have the new regime...
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And the new regime would have something to go on
+1 Unfortunately, we are where we are.
+2 And dumb decisions like leaving Webb on the sidelines are why we have the new regime...
I'm sure there's lots of practice tape on him, and the Giants know a lot about him that they didn't know a year ago, but it still remains that most of the coaches weren't here last year (two assistants according to Eric's coaching list). the Maras and the scouting dept are still here, but how much contact any of them really had with Webb is unknown.
those who interacted the most with Webb in a football sense are gone. The players are still here.
How much can you know about a QB who hasn't played a competitive football game since 2016 in college and barely worked with the first team depth chart?
Then only thing they can know are his practice habits and personality.
I'm sure there's lots of practice tape on him, and the Giants know a lot about him that they didn't know a year ago, but it still remains that most of the coaches weren't here last year (two assistants according to Eric's coaching list). the Maras and the scouting dept are still here, but how much contact any of them really had with Webb is unknown.
those who interacted the most with Webb in a football sense are gone. The players are still here.
I think it's a good situation to have. Old regime out, new in....they will give it a completely unbiased look at the kid. I believe what they see in Webb is pivotal to the future of the offense....
There are just so many variables it's that it's fun to discuss, but nobody knows except DG and his staff and we will all learn on draft day what they were thinking on the current roster....
Now I have softened my stance quite a bit. Darnold really threw me off by not throwing at the combine and the rumors of his interviews being not great. Yes I know Eli didnt throw, but he didnt HAVE to throw. He was going to go top 3 no matter what. 4 of these qbs have been rumored as a 1st pick. Combine that with Barkley and theres a fairly solid chance that Darnold falls out of the top 5. Competitors dont let circumstance dictate their destiny.
Conversely, Rosen looked great at the combine, smiling, chatting and looking like he wanted to be there. That and he looked great throwing the ball....even next to Allen.
Mayfield looked ready at both the Senior Bowl and Combine showing great polish, mobility and accuracy.
But we currently have Webb, who is apparently at the facility every day with Eli, jas a big, big arm, is a coach's son and great at breaking down schemes and philosophy. If he is progressing well as we have been led to believe, then having him sit for another year or two behind Eli allows him to soak up even more. When he is ready to play, we will have to make a decision on extending him and can get away with something fairly modest depending on his production.
At this point I am completely spun as to what I want in the draft because there are so many good options. The biggest question would be if Allen is taken first overall, do I want Barkley (Hernandez in the 2nd), Darnold, or try and trade back hoping Nelson is there and praying for Michel in the 2nd.
Should be a fun month and a half.
The supporting cast is more important than the one guy behind center. As great as Eli has been in the past, he will never win another SB or even make a playoff run with the team he had in front of him the past few years. A great O-line could/can mask the flaws of a QB with an above average brain and substandard passing skills (NFL wise).
It would mean keeping 3 QBs again, but that's a real possibility anyway.
I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.
I completely agree with all of that. The only reason NYG don’t take a QB is if Gettleman and Shurmer don’t think any of those available are the right choice. I like Davis Weeb, and I’m slightly higher on his potential than most, but fans thinking that NYG are passing on a QB because they have Davis Effing Webb are living in a fantasy land. Regardless of what Giants brass says, there is no way they are pinning their future on Webb.
Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.
Hey, I agree. I’ve regularly defended Rosen when posters questioned his athleticism, but all of the QBs listed are good athletes. Allen is a freak, 6’5, 230, and ran the 3rd best 40 at the combine. Darnold also tested well, and was a highly regarded point guard in HS. Davis Webb is a plus athlete as well, so it comes down to Rosen and Mayfield, and I give a slight edge to Mayfield (mainly because he ran a bit in college). Either way, there isn’t a lot of daylight between these guys, imo.