Rams signed ILB Alec Ogletree to a four-year, $42 million extension through 2021.
The deal had been in the works since the summer, and reportedly includes over $30 million guaranteed. Ogletree is a playmaker with sideline-to-sideline athleticism, but has yet to become a truly impact player. He does play all three downs, and has been durable aside from a 2015 broken leg. Ogletree just turned 26 last month.
Stats seem to indicate he's a guy that doesn't miss many games. What does it say about recent Giants injury history when that is the first thing I thought to check?
Compensation update: Giants are trading their fourth-round pick and their sixth-round pick in return for LB Alec Ogletree and the Rams' 2019 seventh-round pick, per source. Link - ( New Window )
Depending on what picks we gave up, I LOVE this move. This is a high intensity LB that can cover a ton of ground. Exactly the type of LB this team needs with attitude to boot.
4th round was where I wanted to grab an LB, instead we get a proven one who is locked up for the next 4 years. Still a young player as well only 26 years old.
I love swapping a 4th and a 6th for a player like Ogletree. Contract matters, of course, but history shows that mid-round picks can be severely overrated by teams as trade-bait. I'd rather have a high-quality player at a higher cost than roster filler at bargain prices. Love it.
In principle, I dont love trading draft picks for a guy who already has a $10M annual cap hit.
This roster is in awful shape, and I guess you cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Doesnt smell like a deliberate/dedicated rebuild type of move, to me.
hoping this is the compensation 4th and not their actual 4th
Why? I mean great if it is but we can't expect to get good players for nothing.
because giving up their 4th is considerably better than giving up the compensation 4th... theres a full 32 picks between the two. I like to hope for the best possible deal, that all. The compensation 4th is almost equivalent to their 5th.
He counts $3 million against the cap this year assuming the $7M roster bonus is zapped. $4M next year assuming the $6M roster bonus is removed. Link - ( New Window )
Was active from sideline to sideline. I also remember seeing a piece on NFL Network about him. Outstanding citizen and a tremendous "QB" in our middle.
hoping this is the compensation 4th and not their actual 4th
Why? I mean great if it is but we can't expect to get good players for nothing.
because giving up their 4th is considerably better than giving up the compensation 4th... theres a full 32 picks between the two. I like to hope for the best possible deal, that all. The compensation 4th is almost equivalent to their 5th.
He's a right inside backer or the money backer in Bettchers defense. Former safety who can track down RBs. He struggles beating blocks but if he's kept clean he can make plays.
hoping this is the compensation 4th and not their actual 4th
Still getting a great value for a 4th round pick, I might be less excited if we gave up a 3rd. What are the odds of the Giants picking someone that good with their 4th round pick? Especially a guy who is ready to play at a high level immediately.
Otherwise this would be quite the bargain. But I don't know I still think it's a bargain either way. He's a fantastic player and he's only 26, and those cap numbers don't look too bad at all.
This guy is getting paid more than our entire linebacker group last season....cap space just got a little less....down to about 14M.....and we haven't signed an OLman yet....
Trading away two picks this year makes it seem a trade down from 2nd overall is more likely
Why do people keep saying this? They essentially lost one pick, because they did add a player.
The trade has no bearing on what they do with the draft, other than LB is less of a priority.
Because they have now traded away a 4th, 6th, and 7th. I think trading late round picks for a proven linebacker is a good move, but you have to think the GM is going to want more than 5 picks in his first draft. A draft that is extremely important to this franchise. If not trading down from 2nd overall, but maybe trading to accumulate more picks in other spots. It was just a thought.
Sounds like the perfect "money-backer" for Bettcher's 3-4. Very athletic, a playmaker, still young, and cap numbers don't look bad at all. This is a great day!!!!
move. Ogletree has great sideline to sideline speed, and is only 26. And for just the comp four and a six, plus we get a seven next year. Well done DG.
I'm curious to see how much of the guarantees the Rams are eating on this and what this contract now looks like for the Giants.
Pretty much no guarantees left beyond. He has a couple of roster bonuses that we are on the hook for. Basically he's on a 4/39 deal with us and cap hits are 10/10/10/9
this does is change the narrative of "id rather have Hankins than a late 4th round pick". I'd rather have Ogletree than Hankins, especially at a lower cap number and with Hankins replacement now in year 2 and probably better than him in Tomlinson.
I'd take an Ogletree (or plug in any established veteran even if he's only league average) over any pick after a 2nd round pick.
Just for reference, this is the success of a ten year study of draft picks by position and "success" was very easily defined as "starting more than half their games".
When I see these numbers for 4th and 6th round picks, and I see fans fret the Giants only have 5 picks and no 6th or 7th round pick. SO WHAT? The odds of hitting on those picks are remote, the odds of the player being at least decent is likely. Trade away.
And no don't trade down to accumulate more useless picks just to have more picks. That's a stupid strategy.
Quote:
Historic Success Chart
The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:
1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)
4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)
5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)
6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)
7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)
This guy is getting paid more than our entire linebacker group last season....cap space just got a little less....down to about 14M.....and we haven't signed an OLman yet....
Doomster seriously shut up dude lol can you be happy for one second? You don't know exactly what the cap number implication is. LB was a major need this offseason and we just got one who is a proven young playmaker and a perfect fit for Bettcher's defense. All for a compensatory 4th rounder?? What do you suggest the Giants could have done better to address that need? This is an incredibly impressive move.
Or are we supposed to just not make any moves whatsoever for fear that we might not be $20M under the cap by the time the season starts?
Trading away two picks this year makes it seem a trade down from 2nd overall is more likely
Why do people keep saying this? They essentially lost one pick, because they did add a player.
The trade has no bearing on what they do with the draft, other than LB is less of a priority.
How the hell would you know it has no bearing. Of course it does. You think they made a trade without even thinking about what they wnat to accomplish in the draft. I am not saying it guarantees a trade down but it sure as hell has some bearing on the draft as they must have thought that through before hand.
I actually wonder if this confirms that we're sticking with the 4-3
can always be changed with guaranteed money, working money around, etc. Unless you have close to no cap space, it's usually never a problem to work things around to sign someone you really want (Norwell).
Even with this move, we'll be able to sign Norwell and possibly 1 other big signing
This guy is getting paid more than our entire linebacker group last season....cap space just got a little less....down to about 14M.....and we haven't signed an OLman yet....
Doomster seriously shut up dude lol can you be happy for one second? You don't know exactly what the cap number implication is. LB was a major need this offseason and we just got one who is a proven young playmaker and a perfect fit for Bettcher's defense. All for a compensatory 4th rounder?? What do you suggest the Giants could have done better to address that need? This is an incredibly impressive move.
Or are we supposed to just not make any moves whatsoever for fear that we might not be $20M under the cap by the time the season starts?
Just ignore him. He's a Patriots fan anyway, and probably still bummed about the SB loss.
I think he is a great candidate to switch to inside linebacker in a 3-4 because he is great at playing is space and coverage. I think our starting inside backers will be BJ Goodsen and Ogletree...now we need some pash rushing outside linebackers.
Rams signed ILB Alec Ogletree to a four-year, $42 million extension through 2021.
The deal had been in the works since the summer, and reportedly includes over $30 million guaranteed. Ogletree is a playmaker with sideline-to-sideline athleticism, but has yet to become a truly impact player. He does play all three downs, and has been durable aside from a 2015 broken leg. Ogletree just turned 26 last month.
That sounds like a lot of cap space. How much do the Giants have after this trade? Lowe getting quality LB though.
#NYGiants will send 4th round compensatory pick and their 6th rounder to the Rams for Alec Ogletree and a 2019 7th rounder.
Ok, I'll jump in the deep end. Does this increase the possibility of a trade down...Giants just sent two picks to the Rams and the team has a lot of holes. Just food for thought.
please stop! I am sure Dave Gettleman is not going into this draft focused on how many picks he has. He is trying to make this team better, and getting a quality NFL Linebacker who is 26 and locked up for the next four years is much better than a 4th round pick that will likely never be a quality NFL starter and a 6th round pick that will likely be out of the league in a couple of years.
downside to this trade is its going to be a boring day 3 of the draft. I love the draft and it really does suck when you see players fall that you like even if you know they probably wont pan out and you don't even have a chance to draft them. Now no 6th or 7th rounder this year.
downside to this trade is its going to be a boring day 3 of the draft. I love the draft and it really does suck when you see players fall that you like even if you know they probably wont pan out and you don't even have a chance to draft them. Now no 6th or 7th rounder this year.
What a very good move by DG. He is just the type of LB this team needs. He will likely play inside next to Goodman and be the coverage LB this team desperately needs.
we take the roster bonus, just the $3 mil hit. The roster nonus was only to be paid by Rams if he was on their roster when the bonus comes soon. So they save $10 mil, we take on 3 mil.
Trading away two picks this year makes it seem a trade down from 2nd overall is more likely
Why do people keep saying this? They essentially lost one pick, because they did add a player.
The trade has no bearing on what they do with the draft, other than LB is less of a priority.
How the hell would you know it has no bearing. Of course it does. You think they made a trade without even thinking about what they wnat to accomplish in the draft. I am not saying it guarantees a trade down but it sure as hell has some bearing on the draft as they must have thought that through before hand.
It has no bearing on the likelihood of trading down. Of course acquiring a player in a trade impacts the following draft. Don't be obtuse.
downside to this trade is its going to be a boring day 3 of the draft. I love the draft and it really does suck when you see players fall that you like even if you know they probably wont pan out and you don't even have a chance to draft them. Now no 6th or 7th rounder this year.
We still have a 4th,5th, and a 7th.
7th went in the Cockrell trade last year, so draft ends in the 5th. I know it probably amounts to nothing and wont fret about it, but the draft is one of the highlights of the year and it stinks when it ends early.
we take the roster bonus, just the $3 mil hit. The roster nonus was only to be paid by Rams if he was on their roster when the bonus comes soon. So they save $10 mil, we take on 3 mil.
I think the roster bonuses are ours. We save the prorated signing bonus.
#NYGiants will send 4th round compensatory pick and their 6th rounder to the Rams for Alec Ogletree and a 2019 7th rounder.
Ok, I'll jump in the deep end. Does this increase the possibility of a trade down...Giants just sent two picks to the Rams and the team has a lot of holes. Just food for thought.
Gettleman has never traded down. I wouldn't get your hopes up it's going to happen this year.
we take the roster bonus, just the $3 mil hit. The roster nonus was only to be paid by Rams if he was on their roster when the bonus comes soon. So they save $10 mil, we take on 3 mil.
I think the roster bonuses are ours. We save the prorated signing bonus.
Otherwise it cuts his salary $7m. I think the $3. and $7m this year were guaranteed.
About hiring Gettleman at first but that all changed a few days later when he cut hart and fired Ross. This guy is a completely different GM then Reese and I love it. Reese would never ever made a trade like this never.
RE: and someone was just complaining that we never make a trade
No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
Had 98 solo tackles in 2016.
RE: I actually wonder if this confirms that we're sticking with the 4-3
but based only on some quick browsing online, Rams fans don't seem very upset that he's gone. A lot of them were upset with his play, mainly all the missed tackles. I liked him coming out of college but haven't seen much of him on the Rams so I'm neutral on the trade assuming it's not a huge cap hit. But Bettcher must see something in him and the way he would fit in the defense and I'm happy about that. Draft pick wise, they didn't give up much. The cap is the main concern with this trade.
Do teams need to have a minimum number of picks in each draft? The goal is to acquire talent, not bodies.
The Giants are rebuilding. They seem to want to turn over the roster quite a bit to get "professional football players" and "hog mollies" that fit what the new GM and coaches are trying to do. In that situation, you want picks. It's not like they have a loaded roster and are trying to fill a single weak spot. They have plenty of needs.
No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
I imagine Bettcher plans to use him like he previously used Buchanon in Arizona, kind of a LB/S hybrid role.
No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
I imagine Bettcher plans to use him like he previously used Buchanon in Arizona, kind of a LB/S hybrid role.
I agree. At 6'3" 235 he's built more like a big safety anyway
About hiring Gettleman at first but that all changed a few days later when he cut hart and fired Ross. This guy is a completely different GM then Reese and I love it. Reese would never ever made a trade like this never.
Rams in a pinch and need to create cap room...what a difference having a GM ready to act and take advantage. Locking down a good new starting LB before free agency and the draft. Love it.
No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
I imagine Bettcher plans to use him like he previously used Buchanon in Arizona, kind of a LB/S hybrid role.
I agree. At 6'3" 235 he's built more like a big safety anyway
Pretty sure Ogletree played safety in college, right? Point being, he fits what modern LBs are evolving into
Ogletree will be playing behind Snacks and Tomlinson vs. Donald and Brockers. While Donald is arguably the best DT in football he is a at his best penetrating the OL where Snacks and Tomlinson tie up OL keeping the LB's relatively clean.
No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
I imagine Bettcher plans to use him like he previously used Buchanon in Arizona, kind of a LB/S hybrid role.
I agree. At 6'3" 235 he's built more like a big safety anyway
Pretty sure Ogletree played safety in college, right? Point being, he fits what modern LBs are evolving into
I think you are right. To me, this move has Bettcher written all over it. It's the chess piece he needs.
I'd take an Ogletree (or plug in any established veteran even if he's only league average) over any pick after a 2nd round pick.
Just for reference, this is the success of a ten year study of draft picks by position and "success" was very easily defined as "starting more than half their games".
When I see these numbers for 4th and 6th round picks, and I see fans fret the Giants only have 5 picks and no 6th or 7th round pick. SO WHAT? The odds of hitting on those picks are remote, the odds of the player being at least decent is likely. Trade away.
And no don't trade down to accumulate more useless picks just to have more picks. That's a stupid strategy.
Quote:
Historic Success Chart
The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:
1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)
4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)
5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)
6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)
7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)
Actually. Ogletree played inside last year and was there through the transition from the 4-3 to Wade Phillips' 3-4. This is a money move I think, Donald has to be paid and the Rams have tagged one DB and another that is hitting UFA.
If anyone hasn't looked at the BBI discussion on Ogletree vs. Arthur Brown, it's worth a look and a chuckle. Arthur WHO you may ask? The Arthur Brown many clamored as being the superior LB to Ogletree in the 2013 draft. The Arthur Brown who has 20 career tackles, is a street free agent and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. THAT Arthur Brown.
is basically a 5th.. the 6 carries little weight. This is great value. NYG got this deal because the Rams are backed against the cap with important pieces in need of new contracts.
Ogletree will be playing behind Snacks and Tomlinson vs. Donald and Brockers. While Donald is arguably the best DT in football he is a at his best penetrating the OL where Snacks and Tomlinson tie up OL keeping the LB's relatively clean.
Exactly
As I said earlier, one of the reasons his PFF grade slipped. The Rams scheme shifted dramatically last year. Ogeltree is not an edge guy in the 3-4, not big enough and he's too small to MLB in a scheme that asks the DTs to penetrate.
Giants fans should be pleased with the idea of the four starting LBs potentially being OV, Ogletree, BJ Goodson, and Kennard. And that list still has room for improvement.
@PatKirwanRFN
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
@PatKirwanRFN
5m5 minutes ago
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
picks if Pugh and/or Richburg sign elsewhere, especially at the inflated $$s being bandied about? Anybody know for sure? If so, that almost makes this a freebie.
picks if Pugh and/or Richburg sign elsewhere, especially at the inflated $$s being bandied about? Anybody know for sure? If so, that almost makes this a freebie.
Comp picks are figured out after the season. So any comp picks for Pugh and Richburg would be figured out after 2018 season for the 2019 draft.
picks if Pugh and/or Richburg sign elsewhere, especially at the inflated $$s being bandied about? Anybody know for sure? If so, that almost makes this a freebie.
Good question - could be offset by FAs we sign, right?
@PatKirwanRFN
5m5 minutes ago
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
@PatKirwanRFN
5m5 minutes ago
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
It would but not by much. Plus his contract hit with the Giants includes no bonus money at the moment, so it would only put a little dead money out there if we cut him after 2019.
RE: RE: I guess the Giants really are moving to a 3-4
I think you'll see JPP all over the place but primarily with his hand in the dirt next to Snacks and Tomlinson. Vernon more of your traditional 3-4 OLB.
With the switch of DRC to safety and this move, you're starting to see Bettcher's D come together. When looking at what he did in Arizona, those were the two slots we were clearly missing.
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
I think the Rams were really dumping his salary. DG probably figures that with the cap rising to 177 million, a comparable player to Ogletree would cost more than the 42 million/30 guaranteed.
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
I think the Rams were really dumping his salary. DG probably figures that with the cap rising to 177 million, a comparable player to Ogletree would cost more than the 42 million/30 guaranteed.
it's only 39 million/10 guaranteed to the Giants, with the 6 million 2019 roster bonus guaranteed for injury only.
This is a great move - we give up little and fill a critical hole. Defense just needs a DB for depth from the draft and it is set. Backers in 3-4 will be Kennard, Goodson, Ogletree and Vernon. Linemen are JPP, Tomlinson and Snacks. DBs are Jenkins, Apple, DRC and Collins. Talent is there to be a top five defense. And now we focus on offense in both free agency and the draft as per my post yesterday... Great job Dave Gettleman - there is optimism in the kingdom again!!! The Mike post 3/6/2018 - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
it's only 39 million/10 guaranteed to the Giants, with the 6 million 2019 roster bonus guaranteed for injury only.
Good point. DG basically traded a comp 4th and switched a 6/7th to save about 25 million in guaranteed money he would have to pay for a comparable player. That's a great hedge imo
he may not be one of our outside backers. Could be signed however if the price is right. With the 3-4 focused D, we'll need LBer depth too. Minimum of 7 LBers, but that could include OV.
RE: RE: RE: I guess the Giants really are moving to a 3-4
I think you'll see JPP all over the place but primarily with his hand in the dirt next to Snacks and Tomlinson. Vernon more of your traditional 3-4 OLB.
With the switch of DRC to safety and this move, you're starting to see Bettcher's D come together. When looking at what he did in Arizona, those were the two slots we were clearly missing.
Yup good points. Obviously need another OLB and depth, but great to fill this need befor FA starts
picks if Pugh and/or Richburg sign elsewhere, especially at the inflated $$s being bandied about? Anybody know for sure? If so, that almost makes this a freebie.
Good question - could be offset by FAs we sign, right?
Maybe. I don't really know the rules, but it seems logical.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
it's only 39 million/10 guaranteed to the Giants, with the 6 million 2019 roster bonus guaranteed for injury only.
Good point. DG basically traded a comp 4th and switched a 6/7th to save about 25 million in guaranteed money he would have to pay for a comparable player. That's a great hedge imo
The Giants are top heavy roster wise with a lot of holes to fill and a brand new coaching staff, they should be a very attractive UDFA destination next year. I'm not worried about the late pick at all, we'll get comparable talent after the draft.
This is a great move - we give up little and fill a critical hole. Defense just needs a DB for depth from the draft and it is set. Backers in 3-4 will be Kennard, Goodson, Ogletree and Vernon. Linemen are JPP, Tomlinson and Snacks. DBs are Jenkins, Apple, DRC and Collins. Talent is there to be a top five defense. And now we focus on offense in both free agency and the draft as per my post yesterday... Great job Dave Gettleman - there is optimism in the kingdom again!!! The Mike post 3/6/2018 - ( New Window )
Cool how you linked to a prior thread and, specifically, to one of your posts. How exactly does one do that?
This is a great move - we give up little and fill a critical hole. Defense just needs a DB for depth from the draft and it is set. Backers in 3-4 will be Kennard, Goodson, Ogletree and Vernon. Linemen are JPP, Tomlinson and Snacks. DBs are Jenkins, Apple, DRC and Collins. Talent is there to be a top five defense. And now we focus on offense in both free agency and the draft as per my post yesterday... Great job Dave Gettleman - there is optimism in the kingdom again!!! The Mike post 3/6/2018 - ( New Window )
I wish I had your optimism, but there are still significant holes to fill (nothing is set on the OL, although the LB picture became a little clearer today, the team is still in need of at least one more quality LB, need an every down RB, and quality CB depth)
picks if Pugh and/or Richburg sign elsewhere, especially at the inflated $$s being bandied about? Anybody know for sure? If so, that almost makes this a freebie.
Good question - could be offset by FAs we sign, right?
Maybe. I don't really know the rules, but it seems logical.
Exactly. If Giants had signed a free agent LB, it would offset whatever comp picks they get for Pugh, Richburg, Kennard etc . . .
So, basically, Giants should get back the comp pick next year assuming they do not sign any major free agents . . .
that could get to the QB. Ogletree is not that guy, not a bad LBer, but not an edge rusher. Hopefully, the Giants focus in the draft on OLBs.
He is strong in covering TE and RB over the middle. How many times did we see QBs avoid the Giants rush with dump off passes over the middle? So, AO can help generate sacks in other ways than getting to the QB himself
I think it is a good move
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Randy Moss was traded for a 4th.
From Minnesota? True, though at the time it was thought that he had declined and we quickly learned that wasn't the case and it was a bonehead move.
But ogletree at his best isn't anywhere near that level of talent.
Moss came from Oakland. A lot of people thought he was done because he basically just jogged through his routes with piss-poor RAiders. Made zero effort. But obviously BB could see he was not done.
RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
@PatKirwanRFN
5m5 minutes ago
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
The reason given for him being traded is he does not fir in a 3-4 defense that Wade runs. I think we show a few 3-4 looks here and there but I believe we are staying in a 4-3 for the foreseeable future.
This was out of the ESPN article about trading for him:
The Ogletree trade continued the Rams' theme of opening salary cap space by parting with players they believed to be ill-fitting parts for defensive coordinator Wade Phillips' 3-4 defense, which was also a reason they dealt outside linebacker Robert Quinn to the Miami Dolphins last week.
Why would we trade for a guy who does not play a 3-4. I think we are staying in a 4-3.
@PatKirwanRFN
5m5 minutes ago
More
really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
The reason given for him being traded is he does not fir in a 3-4 defense that Wade runs. I think we show a few 3-4 looks here and there but I believe we are staying in a 4-3 for the foreseeable future.
Right - the linebackers as configured in 3-4 assuming they sign kennard of ogletree/goodson/kennard/vernon can easily reconfigure to 4-3 with Vernon moving to DE and ogletree moving to the SAM or WILL... the athleticism of Ogletree and Vernon gives Bettcher lots of defensive flexibility...
@PatKirwanRFN
5m5 minutes ago
More
really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
The reason given for him being traded is he does not fir in a 3-4 defense that Wade runs. I think we show a few 3-4 looks here and there but I believe we are staying in a 4-3 for the foreseeable future.
Right - the linebackers as configured in 3-4 assuming they sign kennard of ogletree/goodson/kennard/vernon can easily reconfigure to 4-3 with Vernon moving to DE and ogletree moving to the SAM or WILL... the athleticism of Ogletree and Vernon gives Bettcher lots of defensive flexibility...
Without getting into great detail, think of the Rams 3-4 similar to the Texans 3-4. Features an unstoppable DE in both cases (Watt and Donald). Bettcher's 3-4 has been very different and much more varied. Ogeltree makes more sense here than he did in LA.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Several players mentioned:
Randy Moss
Robert Quinn
LeSean McCoy
DeMarco Murray
Marcus Peters
Aqib Talib
Tony Gonzalez (not for less, but a 2nd round pick)
and more...
Murray wasn't a trade.
Peters was traded for a 4th and a 2019 2nd.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not negative about it. I just want to know why an ascending team trying to compete is giving away a starter for not very much of anything.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
Sounds to me like this makes a trade down out of the #2 overall spot more likely. If you just traded two picks, you need more picks.
But what do I know?
I'm in agreement with you. We need players. Having only 5 picks now is not what I expected; though neither am I thinking we'd have AO. If he doesn't slide down on the #2, I think DG may slide from the 34 if upper level OLs are swept up by 34.
Don't know if Norwells a "lock" but at least one other non- NYG OL must be on their rapid beeping radar to hedge vs. what I said about the #34.
LA has to pay Donald, Gurley, and eventually Goff. They need to clear as much money as they can for these guys and Ogletree, while a good player, was nothing spectacular for them since drafted
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Several players mentioned:
Randy Moss
Robert Quinn
LeSean McCoy
DeMarco Murray
Marcus Peters
Aqib Talib
Tony Gonzalez (not for less, but a 2nd round pick)
and more...
Murray wasn't a trade.
Peters was traded for a 4th and a 2019 2nd.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not negative about it. I just want to know why an ascending team trying to compete is giving away a starter for not very much of anything.
Murray was traded by the Eagles to the Titans and all it cost TEN was a swap of 4th round picks with the Eagles.
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
inside backer in a 3-4 can often operate as a WILL. Main responsibilities are blitzing and covering RBs/TEs. I think he's a good match with Goodson, who is more of a thumper.
inside backer in a 3-4 can often operate as a WILL. Main responsibilities are blitzing and covering RBs/TEs. I think he's a good match with Goodson, who is more of a thumper.
Jon, that's kinda what I thought, but didn't want to assume that is what Sy meant.
One of the things that is very commonly mentioned in articles
He's great at pass rushing but little else. Hasn't lived up to his potential at all but still a solid LB. Rams probably drafting LB 1st round now.
He routinely whiffs in the run game. He was miscast as a 3-4 ILB and maybe just as a MLB period. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move him back outside. He was not worth his contract and I'm fully behind this move. Wade is making his voice heard loud and clear. The only downside to this is he was such a leader on defense. The Giants just got a tremendous guy for their locker room.
I think people over think the motivation behind moves like this. DG said when he took over he was going to improve the roster any way possible ( quite frankly that's his job). Teams are trying to compete every year. When you acquire a 26 year old who can play you are improving the position for 2018 and beyond. If he signs the guard from Carolina- same scenario. To his credit, Reese did the same thing with the defense with the 3 free agents. They were all young proven players. Where this organization has screwed up in the past was signing older past their prime players for strangling contracts.
I don't think this affects the #2 pick at all. If the guy he wants is there he will take him. If he gets a great offer for the pick he might trade it.
Think of AO as this years 4th pick (comp). Pretty good getting a starter with that pick.
RE: From another forum, from some Rams fans. For what it's worth.
He's great at pass rushing but little else. Hasn't lived up to his potential at all but still a solid LB. Rams probably drafting LB 1st round now.
He routinely whiffs in the run game. He was miscast as a 3-4 ILB and maybe just as a MLB period. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move him back outside. He was not worth his contract and I'm fully behind this move. Wade is making his voice heard loud and clear. The only downside to this is he was such a leader on defense. The Giants just got a tremendous guy for their locker room.
Naturally they would say this to justify to fans... But take a look at the game he had against the Saints in critical game late last year and his stops on both Kamara and Ingram. He is very athletic and better than anyone the giants currently have. And obviously Bettcher knows him very well having played against him twice a year in Arizona. But his leadership is what is most exciting here - Giants have not had this kind of vocal leadership at linebacker since Pierce... it has been sorely needed and IMO the missing element on the defense over the last decade...
about Bettcher's defense is that traditional player roles are not what should be expected.
This. I think the move of DRC to FS and this acquisition are pretty big clues that Bettcher is looking to replicate what he did in Arizona. We acquired Ogletree through a trade prior to free agency, so he clearly targeted with a defined role in mind. It's pretty easy to see that he'll be in that Sean Witherspoon/Deone Buchanon role.
Bettcher has used a bunch of undersized players across his 3-4
@JoeBanner13
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Giants made it clear today that they are not picking a QB in draft. They are clearly going to be aggressive in trying to win as much as they can before Eli is done. Teams with cap challenges and important FAs do not trade draft picks for players unless the plan is short term
RE: Bettcher has used a bunch of undersized players across his 3-4
@JoeBanner13
2h2 hours ago
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Giants made it clear today that they are not picking a QB in draft. They are clearly going to be aggressive in trying to win as much as they can before Eli is done. Teams with cap challenges and important FAs do not trade draft picks for players unless the plan is short term
I wonder if Banner noticed that the 4th that they traded was their conditional pick. This deal is essentially a 5th and 6th rounder.
for less than what the open market is going to pay the few top LB's out there in FA. His cap # here will be less than Hightower got last year and he's likely better than Nigel Bradham (or whoever we think the top LB available is).
Had to give up 2 non premium picks to do it, but they got a good player. Hankins and a 6th for Ogletree is a good trade.
Art Stapleton: Pat Kiwin making some cap sense here re: Ogletree.
for Ogletree, and this is coming from the most skeptical person of everything Jints Central does, if:
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
for Ogletree, and this is coming from the most skeptical person of everything Jints Central does, if:
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
for Ogletree, and this is coming from the most skeptical person of everything Jints Central does, if:
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
Agreed. Add in that the cap rules make it very preferable to acquire a veteran this way with his previous team paying out the signing bonus money vs. being the original contracted team on the hook for dead money. I think Kirwan is on to something with re-allocated the guaranteed roster bonus, but even still over the 3 years the Giants are responsible for a very small amount of guaranteed money compared to what any very good FA LB would get.
RE: RE: RE: Bettcher has used a bunch of undersized players across his 3-4
I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
NYG will likely run a hybrid scheme, where the WILL is always present. If I have the Cardinals scheme down correctly from last year, he might end up being the Buchanon role. Somewhat of a roamer, a lot of space/pursuit...etc. Goodson plays the inside role with more traffic and contact
I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
NYG will likely run a hybrid scheme, where the WILL is always present. If I have the Cardinals scheme down correctly from last year, he might end up being the Buchanon role. Somewhat of a roamer, a lot of space/pursuit...etc. Goodson plays the inside role with more traffic and contact
Thank you Sy, my thought as well.
I think this was a much needed trade for a quality LB
Yes, 2 picks is steep but I don't think we had UFA options to match this pickup. Ogletree is speedy and can cover.
I'm thinking our defense can bounce back this year from last year's debacle. I think Cromartie will be the starting FS and he can still cover. I think the DL can bounce back if healthy. If Goodson can stay healthy and play to his abilities we'll be ok.
Health; a good draft; some UFA's of merit; and, well we can bounce back to a winning season, even if its just 9 - 7.
Will tell but it seems the Rams were desperate to get rid of him for whatever reasons maybe the most likely the CAP situation. If you know they are struggling with the CAP why include the 6th round this year for a 7th round next year? Thats my one question they are desperate we should come out of this trade smelling like highway robbers in this case the scale seems fairly balanced. A good thief has to know the true value of the product before stealing it or else how can he fence it off to gain true return
value. I would have offered the 4th round 2019, they can accept it or maybe end up cutting him if no one else bites. Ogletree may help us but he is not going to make this defense special all by himself.
Will tell but it seems the Rams were desperate to get rid of him for whatever reasons maybe the most likely the CAP situation. If you know they are struggling with the CAP why include the 6th round this year for a 7th round next year? Thats my one question they are desperate we should come out of this trade smelling like highway robbers in this case the scale seems fairly balanced. A good thief has to know the true value of the product before stealing it or else how can he fence it off to gain true return
value. I would have offered the 4th round 2019, they can accept it or maybe end up cutting him if no one else bites. Ogletree may help us but he is not going to make this defense special all by himself.
You are mad about a 6th rounder? Jesus. Your entire view on this is way off, IMO. We gave up what is essentially a 5th round pick and a throw away 6th for a guy who may be the best LBer we've had since a healthy Boley (better than Boley most likely).
Giants fans: We need stronger LBs.
Giants: Trade for strong LB.
Giants fans: Why did we trade for a LB?
Carl Banks absolutely loves the guy and thinks this was an outstanding trade
Having the extra fourth rounder made this move a no brainer.
They desperately needed an athletic LB, now they have one, they haven't hurt their draft much and they have the ammunition to get more picks if they choose to.
Like the trade felt the price since we are taking on a large amount of future CAP from a desperate CAP situation team was overpriced. My real concern is that many will think like you because of one, five or seven additional players this team will become contenders once again. Thats an unlikely reality there maybe three to four positions on this team that have true starting quality NFL players returning without an injuries concerns or major talent production. Hope for the best expect the worst should be the motto for this team dont expect to fix a 3 win team devoid of talent overnight.
I think many are forgetting how good the D was just 13 months ago
yeah they took a big step back (the whole team did) and there's a new system coming in but there is talent here and they just added a 26 year old pro bowl LB renowned for not only his ability but his leadership. To go with Snacks, Collins, Jenkins, Tomlinson, DRC, JPP, Vernon. This is a very good thing at a pretty insignificant cost.
There's very little defense in the NFL overall these days so I'm not saying this is the 2000 ravens, but there aren't many teams who have that much defensive talent. Fix the OL so the time of possession/turnover battle/field so the field isn't slanted against us plus a couple good draft picks and this defense is going to be very interesting.
Like the trade felt the price since we are taking on a large amount of future CAP from a desperate CAP situation team was overpriced. My real concern is that many will think like you because of one, five or seven additional players this team will become contenders once again. Thats an unlikely reality there maybe three to four positions on this team that have true starting quality NFL players returning without an injuries concerns or major talent production. Hope for the best expect the worst should be the motto for this team dont expect to fix a 3 win team devoid of talent overnight.
Capitalizing the word "CAP" doesn't make you any less clueless about the way it works.
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Wait, what? Are you fucking serious about McCoy being a HoF player?
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Then they should manage their cap better. Theres no reason not to be able to afford a top QB and DT in todays cap structure. Also, hes been traded because he also doesnt fit heir scheme, this isnt purely a salary dump.
Giants will be able to afford Eli, Beckham on a new deal, and the big 3 signings from 2016, in addition to having enough room to go after a top OLman in FA. so who cares what the rams are doing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Wait, what? Are you fucking serious about McCoy being a HoF player?
Just when I had thought I had seen it all.
Hey no need for the language buddy. Not as ludicrous as you think it is either. Hes top 30 all time in rushing as it is. If he plays two more years, and he will probably play that and more, hell get over 12,000 yds and that makes him a near shoe in. Only 16 backs have 12,000 career rushing yds or more and 13 of them are in the Hall. Im not even taking his receiving yds into the equation.
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
And theyre gonna have to pay Gurley.
Again - the cap benefit of trading for him is they can cut him easily
in subsequent seasons with minimal dead money. That's one of the factors that makes this an interesting, and possibly very shrewd move, in comparison to giving out significantly more guaranteed money to any comparable UFA this offseason who would then be impossible to cut for 2-3 years.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
The cost in draft picks for Ogletree is very reasonable.
a couple years ago everybody would have said what a steal. Now pessimistic Giants fans say we got screwed. Seriously. Think about it if this year we traded down and gave up a 6 to get him in the fourth round everyone would be happy. Now this year many fans are saying it's stupid. I give up.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
That's a dangerous game. Didn't a bunch of NBA teams just get caught in shitty contracts because the cap unexpectedly went down?
But even regardless of that, while cap hell is no longer a realty the cap does still influence decision making. We're seeing it with the Rams. Is it mismanagement, or are they now the victims of their own good drafting?
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
I don't think anyone is saying the "cap doesn't matter" as much as they're saying it's more maneuverable than others believe.
Again - how many times have the Giants lost a quality player to FA with the primary reason being that they couldn't afford to pay him in recent years?
It's entirely possible that LAR traded Ogletree because they felt he wasn't a great fit for Wade's defense and wanted to recoup some assets instead. His play wasn't quite as good this past year as it was when Williams was there.
If your argument is that teams can't keep everyone... no shit. I think most people know that.
I don't think people are arguing otherwise.
The cap simply isn't as restrictive as some seem to think.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
No, they dont say its maneuverable, they say it doesnt prevent teams from keeping guys they want to keep.
The Giants havent had any issues in recent years because their roster hasnt been that talented. Look at the guys they let walk after their rookie deals. Look at their posture towards Richberg/Pugh.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
That's a dangerous game. Didn't a bunch of NBA teams just get caught in shitty contracts because the cap unexpectedly went down?
But even regardless of that, while cap hell is no longer a realty the cap does still influence decision making. We're seeing it with the Rams. Is it mismanagement, or are they now the victims of their own good drafting?
It's a symptom of a crappy system. It's so bizarre that the NFL actively punishes teams for hitting home runs in the draft. No other sport does this, even capped sports. The NBA encourages teams to keep their own talent by giving the home team the ability to offer more contract years and go over cap for their own players.
Because it really doesn't prevent most teams from keeping players they want to keep.
Yes, you have to prioritize certain players.
If Weston Richburg had performed much better the last 2 seasons, or of Justin Pugh could actually stay on the field, I have a feeling NYG would be more focused on retaining them.
Letting them go probably has just as much to do with performance/durability as it does the cap.
Players like Beckham and Collins won't go anywhere because the Giants will make them priorities.
Just like LAR won't lose Gurley or Donald. They'll pay both players and keep them.
Sure, there are cap casualties - but most of the time, it's players whom execs feel are either getting old and won't provide proper ROI, are injury prone, or have flat underperformed.
The vast majority of the UFA's are JAG's and garbage.
There are some quality players. But for the most part, if a team really wants to keep a player, they will. Even if they have to utilize the option of tagging them to do so.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
Then there's Goff and Gurley in a couple years...
That 40 million is going to go pretty quickly.
The $40M is this year (2018), right now they're projected at ~$97M in available space in 2019 and over $140M in 2020 (estimated for both).
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
The Giants defense has been missing a vocal leader.... supposedly, he is more leader/locker room guy then anything else....but still a major upgrade for us.
The defense disfunction could be resolved with a leader like him
than he actually is....by that I mean, when you look at what we have been trotting out there for linebackers, these last 7 seasons, he will just look all world in comparison.....
Remember Beason? He comes here and makes a simple play that an average linebacker should make, and BBI went Lady Gaga.....
But it also showed, how much the position had been ignored...Shame on you Reese....
I do not think, signing one linebacker turns us into a 3-4 defense.....especially since the only other linebacker you really have can't stay on the field...
Also, it's amazing how excited some on BBI are getting, over the acquisition of of a 7th rounder next year.....maybe we can use it to trade up to get another Bisnowaty......OK, another shot at Reese.....
The draft, if we are lucky, usually produces one legitimate starter, and maybe a body, as a starter....if any other draft picks stick, they are ST's or backups at best.....
Of course, that was the MO of Reese and Co., hopefully Gettleman changes that......would be nice to get some "playahs" after the second round....
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
The position has been that the cap is increasingly becoming a non-issue while some posters continue to look at it like they did in the 90's. I posted a stat that in 1999, over half the teams in the league were over the cap and had to make cuts or restructure contracts. In the past few years, the number of teams has been less than 5 each year.
Also, people keep pointing to Vernon and JPP's contracts (as well as Eli's) as limitations on who we can sign, yet all of them have reasonable cap hits that have been managed well and can come off the books next year with limited exposure.
By the way - Ogletree is probably a poor example of a cap move. It could be that the Rams don't want to spend to the cap or that they want to resign other players and are hedging against longer-term issues, but they still have a lot of cap room and traditionally stay well below the cap.
The per year amounts are high, but he can be cut starting next year for no dead cap.
That's because he was traded. The Rams assumed the balance of his amortized signing bonus (a $6.4MM dead money hit to them this year). The only guaranteed money the Giants will have to pay will be roster bonuses this year and next.
I wouldn't necessarily call his contract team-friendly in any way other than all traded contracts become team-friendly in terms of the escape hatch that the trade creates (because the signing bonus stays with the original team). $10MM/yr isn't cheap for a LB, so in that way, it's not particularly team-friendly. IMO, a team-friendly contract should be one that the team benefits by honoring, not simply one that is easy to get out of.
finally a linebacker... and the best part about this is
he isnt wasting picks in the draft. He is getting value from draft picks. Obviously 4th and 6th round arent sure things. It gives Gentlemen less chance to fuck up.
The contract is good as a result of the trade, that's not debated. What the Giants do now is what matters. If they convert the roster into a signing bonus, and put guaranteed money into the third year, this is a very fair deal for all sides. It increases the chances they honor more of the contract and provides flexibility.
That said, he is compensated above value for a LB. It wasn't a good contract the Rams got into, and they bought themselves out of it.
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New Giants LB Alec Ogletree is probably too limited vs. Pass to ever justify the ~$8.5M APY he earns, which calls to question why the Rams gave it to him.
Either way, really good (100-110 tackle per year) guy. Just on bad deal. Will have superior value to Big Blue's base setup.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
Watkins, long term? I know people keep waiting for him to show his potential, but those 39 catches last year must have been impressive for them to ditch their starting linebacker for a kicking tee so they can sign Watkins long-term.
Gurley they have two more years (4th year of his contract and 5th year option) before they need to extend him not to mention the FT.
Goff they have one more year than that. Ogletree would have been cuttable before they need to extend any of those guys except Donald.
but I think the Rams dealt Ogletree more out of a case of buyers remorse than needing to free up cap space. Looking back, that's a bad contract, and the Donald extension (the only one that makes this move make sense) looming they decide to rip the band-aid off now.
And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
can't be both, unless it's only the Giants where the salary cap is a mythical limitation and they have super powers to get around it.
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New Giants LB Alec Ogletree is probably too limited vs. Pass to ever justify the ~$8.5M APY he earns, which calls to question why the Rams gave it to him.
Either way, really good (100-110 tackle per year) guy. Just on bad deal. Will have superior value to Big Blue's base setup.
He was 2nd among linebackers in pass breakups.
Not sure who that guy is but he seems pretty clueless.
They also have Peters who needs a contract and Joyner now tagged
at just under $12m. They considered putting the $16m tag on Watkins too so presumably he's going to get a number approaching or surpassing what Ogletree made.
Add those situations to Donald's $100m extension negotiations and they have some maneuvering to do even before Gurley and Goff come up. Seems like they just decided they could get an asset that's almost the equivalent of what they'd get via a FA compensation pick (4th) and clear Ogletree's money after this year.
and a DT that's on a hall of fame career trajectory. They can either pay them or go back to being largely irrelevant.
It's ridiculous that this sport where every team is worth a billion dollars still has a salary cap.
Yes, thank you for bringing this up. I completely agree. I have been bitching about this for awhile. It drives me crazy that even mediocre QBs are getting paid through the roof then they complain that the owners can't put a great team around them.
They just look at the NBA salaries like it is a fair comparison. The QB wants to eat a 6th of the teams cap space on a 53 man roster. At the very least the NFL should move to a soft cap and let the owners pay a luxury tax for exceeding it.
I want to agree 100% w the head scratching low salary cap number in a world where they generate a good portion of revenue and have a roster with 70 guys to pay.
On the other hand a roster w 70 guys is exactly why there is a cap. If football were to lose popularity or tv money, the place would go bankrupt trying to sustain money to function on gste revenue alone w only 8-12 games a year
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
Then there's Goff and Gurley in a couple years...
That 40 million is going to go pretty quickly.
The $40M is this year (2018), right now they're projected at ~$97M in available space in 2019 and over $140M in 2020 (estimated for both).
And those players I listed will dramatically change those numbers. I think you're underestimating the contracts they're about to receive.
but I think the Rams dealt Ogletree more out of a case of buyers remorse than needing to free up cap space. Looking back, that's a bad contract, and the Donald extension (the only one that makes this move make sense) looming they decide to rip the band-aid off now.
You're partly right. It was a bad contract for them. He was just a poor fit for Wade Phillips defense and they have too many guys that need to be paid in the next few years. Donald (who held out last year) and Gurley are no brainers and they appear to want to resign Johnson and Watkins (not sure why here). To answer your question on why they dealt him now instead of waiting...they had to. He has a 7m dollar roster bonus kicking in this week and a 6m dollar roster bonus hitting next year.
For those saying 10m/yr is pricey for a LB, hold that thought until we see what Bradhsm gets. They're comparable players, both in age and skillset. I'm guessing he gets more annually and probably twice the guarantee money that we're on the hook for with Ogletree.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
Watkins, long term? I know people keep waiting for him to show his potential, but those 39 catches last year must have been impressive for them to ditch their starting linebacker for a kicking tee so they can sign Watkins long-term.
Gurley they have two more years (4th year of his contract and 5th year option) before they need to extend him not to mention the FT.
Goff they have one more year than that. Ogletree would have been cuttable before they need to extend any of those guys except Donald.
But the sooner you extend them, the cheaper it can be long term. And Donald has a shot at being the highest paid defender in the NFL
but I think the Rams dealt Ogletree more out of a case of buyers remorse than needing to free up cap space. Looking back, that's a bad contract, and the Donald extension (the only one that makes this move make sense) looming they decide to rip the band-aid off now.
And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
On the surface I can see why you feel that way but..
After Quinn parting ways with one of their inside LBs just made the most sense. Barron recently had shoulder surgery, he wouldn't pass a physical and you could probably argue he doesn't have the trade value Ogletree has anyway. Ogletree was due a 7 million roster bonus on the 16th.
Two players (Darnold and Goff) are about to receive 100 million dollar contracts with in the next 3 years. Gurley will be paid the highest at his position in the next 2 years. Joyner, Watkins, and Peters will all be paid among the highest at their positions some time between now and next offseason. They don't want to lose Johnson or Robey-Coleman but they'll more than likely have to choose the lesser of the two (RC). If they want to retain all those pieces they have to start the process of moving money now.
The comparison with the Giants just isn't there. They have Beckham and Collins to resign with in the next two years while Eli will be coming off the books during that time.
Stupid deal. Linebackers just arent important any longer
In comment 13854183 mofti said:
[quote] He can be the leader this team needs to get the defense back into form.
Besides leadership biggest issue for me is talent! For a franchise that once featured LB to build its D: HUFF. LIVINGSTON, CARSON, VAN PELT, LT, ETC. their lack of emphasis in stocking up on high quality LB talent has been sadly lacking in this millennium!
I'm still not clear on the Sammie Watkins love, he hasn't quite been a bust, but he's also clearly not an elite player (so far).
Watkins is still viewed by many as a #1 WR. He's a 24 year old with untapped potential. There's plenty of teams with young QBs who want Watkins. The market would be very strong for him.
and a DT that's on a hall of fame career trajectory. They can either pay them or go back to being largely irrelevant.
It's ridiculous that this sport where every team is worth a billion dollars still has a salary cap.
On this I completely agree. The salary cap sucks.
Salary cap keeps an even playing field (although I hate losing good players. Don't assume that the giants would be one of the biggest spenders, for instance Paul Allen owns the Seahawks and could easily outspend all the other teams.
I'm still not clear on the Sammie Watkins love, he hasn't quite been a bust, but he's also clearly not an elite player (so far).
Watkins is still viewed by many as a #1 WR. He's a 24 year old with untapped potential. There's plenty of teams with young QBs who want Watkins. The market would be very strong for him.
He's barely top 10 from his draft class, let alone a #1 NFL WR. Devonta Freeman (a RB) has more receptions than he does from that draft class.
He's the 3rd WR on his team.
I don't honestly believe the market is a strong for him as others maybe believe.
Non-elite guys get franchised (Cousins) all the time
because their teams just don't want to lose them for nothing. Watkins is a really talented young player and those aren't easy to find at premium positions. Same reason the Jags considered franchising Robinson and Dolphins franchised Landry. Obviously none of them deserve to be paid close to OBJ, AB, Julio Jones, etc. I think it's very debateable which of those 3 will have the best career going forward which is why all 3 of those teams didn't want to lose them for nothing.
I'm still not clear on the Sammie Watkins love, he hasn't quite been a bust, but he's also clearly not an elite player (so far).
Watkins is still viewed by many as a #1 WR. He's a 24 year old with untapped potential. There's plenty of teams with young QBs who want Watkins. The market would be very strong for him.
He's barely top 10 from his draft class, let alone a #1 NFL WR. Devonta Freeman (a RB) has more receptions than he does from that draft class.
He's the 3rd WR on his team.
I don't honestly believe the market is a strong for him as others maybe believe.
there are just people here assuming Ogletree was traded for cap purposes:
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And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
can't be both, unless it's only the Giants where the salary cap is a mythical limitation and they have super powers to get around it.
It is closer to the truth, he was traded because the Rams gave him a poor contract and they decided to get at least something back for him.
Neither the Rams nor the Giants are in a bad cap situation. I think that idea was floated by somebody above and then others just jumped on the idea that it was correct.
If I understand your post correctly, you dont like this move for the Giants, correct?
Because if it was a poor contract for LAR, its a poor contract for us, unless Im missing a piece of the caplology.
The signing bonus was tiny. We inherit the roster bonuses, and for as long as hes a NYG hes a $10M cap hit (barring a restructure to simply kick some of it down the road, which I abhor), same as he would have been on LARs books.
Am I wrong here? Ive been hoping that Im missing a piece of the cap story here.
there are just people here assuming Ogletree was traded for cap purposes:
Quote:
And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
can't be both, unless it's only the Giants where the salary cap is a mythical limitation and they have super powers to get around it.
It is closer to the truth, he was traded because the Rams gave him a poor contract and they decided to get at least something back for him.
Neither the Rams nor the Giants are in a bad cap situation. I think that idea was floated by somebody above and then others just jumped on the idea that it was correct.
Agree. I think the Rams are in fine cap shape, especially for a team that is (in theory at least) already a contender.
Even with all the contracts they'll need to dish out to keep their own players in the next 2 - 3 years I think they're in good cap shape.
I think they had buyers remorse and found Ogletree to not be the best fit with their D.
Giants luck out because with the trade the guarantees accelerate and he becomes cuttable without any pain should the Giants choose to cut him or they can even restructure the deal and lower the cap number. All that was ventured (of value) was a late 4th round pick. No brainer trade for the Giants.
I don't think the Giants cap situation is dire, but I do think it will limit the moves they are able to make. Put it this way, if the Giants had the Browns cap space I think they'd make more of a free agent splash. The reason they won't is because they can't IMO.
They'll sign some players (hopefully Norwell) and maybe others, but I believe they will be more limited than a 3 - 13 team should be. Just my opinion.
Fats
bigbluehoya : 5:32 pm : link : reply
If I understand your post correctly, you dont like this move for the Giants, correct?
Because if it was a poor contract for LAR, its a poor contract for us, unless Im missing a piece of the caplology.
My post is that the Rams didn't appear to be happy with his productions vs. what they were paying him. I don't mind the contract for the Giants because:
- He is affordable - the Rams are on the hook for ancillary parts
- The Giants need a competent LB.
Why do you and others keep trying to make this about a cap move? Also, it is a cheaper contract for the Giants because they don't have to be liable for the bonus. We just had a thread going about DeMarco Murray being a cap cut. How about a cut for a guy who is on the wrong side of age and injuries?
And don't misconstrue that to mean that any move is made without some consideration of the cap - just that it isn't often a primary motive.
Im trying to analyze what the Giants actually did here.
You said the Rams gave him a poor contract in your previous post. Hence my question.
When you say hes affordable, what do you mean by that? By all reports, seems that Ogletree will be 3 years of a $10M cap hit to the Giants followed by a final year at $9M.
Doesnt seem like a bargain by any means. Maybe its a contract right at market value; that would imply pretty damned good production. Definitely possible.
My overall point is that trading draft picks for players already being paid every penny of their market value, as would seem to be the case here, is an approach that I have concerns with in principle.
Im trying to analyze what the Giants actually did here.
You said the Rams gave him a poor contract in your previous post. Hence my question.
When you say hes affordable, what do you mean by that? By all reports, seems that Ogletree will be 3 years of a $10M cap hit to the Giants followed by a final year at $9M.
The contract cap hit is based on a 7m roster bonus that's due in 8 days. The Giants can convert that money into a signing bonus which reduces his cap hit and gives them more maneuverability. This has been reported since the trade.
Raanan: Ogletree currently costs $10 million against the salary cap this season, even though it can be creatively reduced to $4.5 million if the Giants convert his upcoming roster bonus next week into a signing bonus. But that will cost them down the line, which brings into question whether this is the right move for this team at this moment.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/56379/why-alec-ogletree-can-be-viewed-as-a-great-trade-for-the-giants
The "it will cost them down the line" refers to the fact that by converting it to a signing bonus, you're trading situations. Right now he's expensive, but they can easily get out of the deal in a year if they don't touch it. Or they can slash the cap hit, but they'd likely be locking in his deal longer-term.
I get that they can kick the can down the road a bit.
Doesnt change my general concern. But there are several things about this trade that make me happy
-LINEBACKER LIVES MATTER
-26 years old and under contract The contract isnt a bargain by any means, but (barring a significant conversion of salary to signing bonus) it means you can cut the player at any time in the future with very little dead money.
-shows a willingness to go out a do significant things in the trade market, which is something that I wanted from the new regime.
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The deal had been in the works since the summer, and reportedly includes over $30 million guaranteed. Ogletree is a playmaker with sideline-to-sideline athleticism, but has yet to become a truly impact player. He does play all three downs, and has been durable aside from a 2015 broken leg. Ogletree just turned 26 last month.
Love it
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Doubt this has any bearing. A 4th isn't nothing but a 6th virtually is.
I doubt it has any bearing whatsoever.
Ogletree is a good player.
Our new GM is actually acknowledging that LB is a position!
But what do I know?
Why? I mean great if it is but we can't expect to get good players for nothing.
But what do I know?
Do teams need to have a minimum number of picks in each draft? The goal is to acquire talent, not bodies.
so things may be a changing.
Agree with the above poster that this may signal we are going to be trading down out of one of our draft slots to recapture a pick.
In principle, I dont love trading draft picks for a guy who already has a $10M annual cap hit.
This roster is in awful shape, and I guess you cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Doesnt smell like a deliberate/dedicated rebuild type of move, to me.
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hoping this is the compensation 4th and not their actual 4th
Why? I mean great if it is but we can't expect to get good players for nothing.
because giving up their 4th is considerably better than giving up the compensation 4th... theres a full 32 picks between the two. I like to hope for the best possible deal, that all. The compensation 4th is almost equivalent to their 5th.
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I do see by the way Ogletree just signed a 4 year extension with the Rams during the 2017 season...
Why do people keep saying this? They essentially lost one pick, because they did add a player.
The trade has no bearing on what they do with the draft, other than LB is less of a priority.
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The 4th the Giants are sending to the Rams in the trade is the comp pick.
Excellent catch DG!
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In comment 13853643 Steve in Greenwich said:
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hoping this is the compensation 4th and not their actual 4th
Why? I mean great if it is but we can't expect to get good players for nothing.
because giving up their 4th is considerably better than giving up the compensation 4th... theres a full 32 picks between the two. I like to hope for the best possible deal, that all. The compensation 4th is almost equivalent to their 5th.
Yes I realize that, I said so in my response.
The comp pick...confirmed per Rock.
Ohh no!
Ogletree tackled Odell late, out of bounds and Odell threw the ball at him, starting everything
Great LB.
The low PFF grade is because he suffered in the Rams switch in defensive scheme, which is why they are willing to trade him.
Still getting a great value for a 4th round pick, I might be less excited if we gave up a 3rd. What are the odds of the Giants picking someone that good with their 4th round pick? Especially a guy who is ready to play at a high level immediately.
Quote:
.
The comp pick...confirmed per Rock.
Great. That makes it better
Great LB.
The low PFF grade is because he suffered in the Rams switch in defensive scheme, which is why they are willing to trade him.
They switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4.
How can they just kill the roster bonuses though? Im not an expert on this stuff, but that doesnt make any sense to me.
Ogletree tackled Odell late, out of bounds and Odell threw the ball at him, starting everything
Eh, no big deal. This actually reduces the Giants chance of getting a 15 yard penalty given that they will both wear blue.
Has to be cap related. They will need to pay Donald ridiculous money. Goff, Gurley down the road.
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Trading away two picks this year makes it seem a trade down from 2nd overall is more likely
Why do people keep saying this? They essentially lost one pick, because they did add a player.
The trade has no bearing on what they do with the draft, other than LB is less of a priority.
Because they have now traded away a 4th, 6th, and 7th. I think trading late round picks for a proven linebacker is a good move, but you have to think the GM is going to want more than 5 picks in his first draft. A draft that is extremely important to this franchise. If not trading down from 2nd overall, but maybe trading to accumulate more picks in other spots. It was just a thought.
I'm curious to see how much of the guarantees the Rams are eating on this and what this contract now looks like for the Giants.
BFD.
We got a proven pro bowl caliber player at a position of need...
It looks like someone posted above he costs 3 or 4 million Rams eating the signing bonus?
But what do I know?
My thoughts exactly. You give up some picks with the knowledge that you are looking to move down.
I'm curious to see how much of the guarantees the Rams are eating on this and what this contract now looks like for the Giants.
Pretty much no guarantees left beyond. He has a couple of roster bonuses that we are on the hook for. Basically he's on a 4/39 deal with us and cap hits are 10/10/10/9
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I'd take an Ogletree (or plug in any established veteran even if he's only league average) over any pick after a 2nd round pick.
Just for reference, this is the success of a ten year study of draft picks by position and "success" was very easily defined as "starting more than half their games".
When I see these numbers for 4th and 6th round picks, and I see fans fret the Giants only have 5 picks and no 6th or 7th round pick. SO WHAT? The odds of hitting on those picks are remote, the odds of the player being at least decent is likely. Trade away.
And no don't trade down to accumulate more useless picks just to have more picks. That's a stupid strategy.
The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:
1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)
4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)
5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)
6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)
7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)
Doomster seriously shut up dude lol can you be happy for one second? You don't know exactly what the cap number implication is. LB was a major need this offseason and we just got one who is a proven young playmaker and a perfect fit for Bettcher's defense. All for a compensatory 4th rounder?? What do you suggest the Giants could have done better to address that need? This is an incredibly impressive move.
Or are we supposed to just not make any moves whatsoever for fear that we might not be $20M under the cap by the time the season starts?
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Trading away two picks this year makes it seem a trade down from 2nd overall is more likely
Why do people keep saying this? They essentially lost one pick, because they did add a player.
The trade has no bearing on what they do with the draft, other than LB is less of a priority.
How the hell would you know it has no bearing. Of course it does. You think they made a trade without even thinking about what they wnat to accomplish in the draft. I am not saying it guarantees a trade down but it sure as hell has some bearing on the draft as they must have thought that through before hand.
Even with this move, we'll be able to sign Norwell and possibly 1 other big signing
Cap room
Played mostly one of the inside spots. Quinn and Barwin were on the outside. But it could mean theyre sticking with a 4-3 base.
Need room to re-sign Aaron Donald?
They seem to have a lot of room, but just a thought.
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This guy is getting paid more than our entire linebacker group last season....cap space just got a little less....down to about 14M.....and we haven't signed an OLman yet....
Doomster seriously shut up dude lol can you be happy for one second? You don't know exactly what the cap number implication is. LB was a major need this offseason and we just got one who is a proven young playmaker and a perfect fit for Bettcher's defense. All for a compensatory 4th rounder?? What do you suggest the Giants could have done better to address that need? This is an incredibly impressive move.
Or are we supposed to just not make any moves whatsoever for fear that we might not be $20M under the cap by the time the season starts?
Just ignore him. He's a Patriots fan anyway, and probably still bummed about the SB loss.
Rams just used the franchise tag on Joyner, and they need to give Donald a long term deal soon, and possibly Brockers.
If you look at the amount of money DTs make on their second contract (remember what Suh got) it's big money.
You sir, are in the minority.
The deal had been in the works since the summer, and reportedly includes over $30 million guaranteed. Ogletree is a playmaker with sideline-to-sideline athleticism, but has yet to become a truly impact player. He does play all three downs, and has been durable aside from a 2015 broken leg. Ogletree just turned 26 last month.
That sounds like a lot of cap space. How much do the Giants have after this trade? Lowe getting quality LB though.
Ok, I'll jump in the deep end. Does this increase the possibility of a trade down...Giants just sent two picks to the Rams and the team has a lot of holes. Just food for thought.
The draft is about QUALITY not QUANTITY.
Ogletree is a good player.
Our new GM is actually acknowledging that LB is a position!
Nah, he's gonna start at TE.
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ogletree is terrible he cannot tackle
You sir, are in the minority.
he missed 27 tackles last year - the most of any linebacker and his contract is terrible
We still have a 4th,5th, and a 7th.
If you want good players, you have to pay for them.....that's a given......with 20 UFA's to replace, and OL needed, Gettleman made his first move.....
Time will tell....
Is it true we don't have a sixth (from trade for Crockwell?), but now have two 7's.
I like the trade.
Building from the inside out......DG tackles the lines next in free agency.
Need to make Eli take a pay cut
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In comment 13853659 BigBlueHens said:
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Trading away two picks this year makes it seem a trade down from 2nd overall is more likely
Why do people keep saying this? They essentially lost one pick, because they did add a player.
The trade has no bearing on what they do with the draft, other than LB is less of a priority.
How the hell would you know it has no bearing. Of course it does. You think they made a trade without even thinking about what they wnat to accomplish in the draft. I am not saying it guarantees a trade down but it sure as hell has some bearing on the draft as they must have thought that through before hand.
It has no bearing on the likelihood of trading down. Of course acquiring a player in a trade impacts the following draft. Don't be obtuse.
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downside to this trade is its going to be a boring day 3 of the draft. I love the draft and it really does suck when you see players fall that you like even if you know they probably wont pan out and you don't even have a chance to draft them. Now no 6th or 7th rounder this year.
We still have a 4th,5th, and a 7th.
7th went in the Cockrell trade last year, so draft ends in the 5th. I know it probably amounts to nothing and wont fret about it, but the draft is one of the highlights of the year and it stinks when it ends early.
I think the roster bonuses are ours. We save the prorated signing bonus.
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It is the comp 4th pick.
I thought comp picks could not be traded?
Changed the rule last year
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#NYGiants will send 4th round compensatory pick and their 6th rounder to the Rams for Alec Ogletree and a 2019 7th rounder.
Ok, I'll jump in the deep end. Does this increase the possibility of a trade down...Giants just sent two picks to the Rams and the team has a lot of holes. Just food for thought.
Gettleman has never traded down. I wouldn't get your hopes up it's going to happen this year.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 13853732 OdellBeckhamJr said:
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ogletree is terrible he cannot tackle
You sir, are in the minority.
he missed 27 tackles last year - the most of any linebacker and his contract is terrible
Yeah but we probably can finally cover Witten now. lol
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we take the roster bonus, just the $3 mil hit. The roster nonus was only to be paid by Rams if he was on their roster when the bonus comes soon. So they save $10 mil, we take on 3 mil.
I think the roster bonuses are ours. We save the prorated signing bonus.
Otherwise it cuts his salary $7m. I think the $3. and $7m this year were guaranteed.
In comment 13853653 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
so things may be a changing.
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
Reese would trade the picks to move up to take some scrub a little bit earlier
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
Had 98 solo tackles in 2016.
Thinking Moneybacker here. He certainly is not an outside LB in a 3-4.
Bettcher will be multiple.
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
I imagine Bettcher plans to use him like he previously used Buchanon in Arizona, kind of a LB/S hybrid role.
Justin Pugh.
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No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
I imagine Bettcher plans to use him like he previously used Buchanon in Arizona, kind of a LB/S hybrid role.
I agree. At 6'3" 235 he's built more like a big safety anyway
Ooof! Lots of people on that thread high on Arthur Brown as a better LB than Ogletree.
We got a 2019 7th round pick and one hell of a LB. Abrams will figure out the cap stuff.
This is a good move by Gettlemen. I do think this increases our chances of trading back a little and picking up some picks.
Rams in a pinch and need to create cap room...what a difference having a GM ready to act and take advantage. Locking down a good new starting LB before free agency and the draft. Love it.
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In comment 13853789 RobCarpenter said:
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No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
I imagine Bettcher plans to use him like he previously used Buchanon in Arizona, kind of a LB/S hybrid role.
I agree. At 6'3" 235 he's built more like a big safety anyway
Pretty sure Ogletree played safety in college, right? Point being, he fits what modern LBs are evolving into
So if I like this trade, then you know its a real good day... ; )
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In comment 13853802 AcesUp said:
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In comment 13853789 RobCarpenter said:
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No way in round 1
Sy'56 : 3/8/2013 9:40 am : link
He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.
I imagine Bettcher plans to use him like he previously used Buchanon in Arizona, kind of a LB/S hybrid role.
I agree. At 6'3" 235 he's built more like a big safety anyway
Pretty sure Ogletree played safety in college, right? Point being, he fits what modern LBs are evolving into
I think you are right. To me, this move has Bettcher written all over it. It's the chess piece he needs.
Lots of changes in LA.
I'd take an Ogletree (or plug in any established veteran even if he's only league average) over any pick after a 2nd round pick.
Just for reference, this is the success of a ten year study of draft picks by position and "success" was very easily defined as "starting more than half their games".
When I see these numbers for 4th and 6th round picks, and I see fans fret the Giants only have 5 picks and no 6th or 7th round pick. SO WHAT? The odds of hitting on those picks are remote, the odds of the player being at least decent is likely. Trade away.
And no don't trade down to accumulate more useless picks just to have more picks. That's a stupid strategy.
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Historic Success Chart
The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:
1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)
4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)
5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)
6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)
7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)
+1
You know what I meant
If anyone hasn't looked at the BBI discussion on Ogletree vs. Arthur Brown, it's worth a look and a chuckle. Arthur WHO you may ask? The Arthur Brown many clamored as being the superior LB to Ogletree in the 2013 draft. The Arthur Brown who has 20 career tackles, is a street free agent and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. THAT Arthur Brown.
Very good trade for Gettleman.
Exactly
As I said earlier, one of the reasons his PFF grade slipped. The Rams scheme shifted dramatically last year. Ogeltree is not an edge guy in the 3-4, not big enough and he's too small to MLB in a scheme that asks the DTs to penetrate.
Giants fans should be pleased with the idea of the four starting LBs potentially being OV, Ogletree, BJ Goodson, and Kennard. And that list still has room for improvement.
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Lots of changes in LA.
Quinn didn't fit their new scheme either. The Rams had paid a lot for good defensive talent that ended up not fitting Wade Philips scheme.
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
Ogletree tackled Odell late, out of bounds and Odell threw the ball at him, starting everything
I'm the president of the Odell hater fan club but I don't think that means anything. That was a long time ago.
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something that Reese would never, ever do. Take a sure thing at LB instead of a shot in the dark in rounds 4-6.
Reese would trade the picks to move up to take some scrub a little bit earlier
Ryan Nassib if I recall
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in the trade for KC's Marcus Peters. They also tagged Joyner.
Lots of changes in LA.
Quinn didn't fit their new scheme either. The Rams had paid a lot for good defensive talent that ended up not fitting Wade Philips scheme.
Donald doesnt really fit the scheme either. But the guys so good it didnt matter.
Who are the outside LBers?
Who are the outside LBers?
Probably Vernon and JPP. Maybe Kennard.
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Comp picks are figured out after the season. So any comp picks for Pugh and Richburg would be figured out after 2018 season for the 2019 draft.
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
I thought you couldn't trade compensatory picks. Did the rule change?
Good question - could be offset by FAs we sign, right?
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
I thought you couldn't trade compensatory picks. Did the rule change?
It did.
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Pat Kirwan
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
You're kidding right? The Eagles got Ajai for a 4th
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
27 year old Robert Quinn was just traded to Miami for a 4th and 6th.
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In comment 13853830 Ryan in Albany said:
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Pat Kirwan
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
It would but not by much. Plus his contract hit with the Giants includes no bonus money at the moment, so it would only put a little dead money out there if we cut him after 2019.
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So they have Goodson and Ogletree inside.
Who are the outside LBers?
Probably Vernon and JPP. Maybe Kennard.
I think you'll see JPP all over the place but primarily with his hand in the dirt next to Snacks and Tomlinson. Vernon more of your traditional 3-4 OLB.
With the switch of DRC to safety and this move, you're starting to see Bettcher's D come together. When looking at what he did in Arizona, those were the two slots we were clearly missing.
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
I think the Rams were really dumping his salary. DG probably figures that with the cap rising to 177 million, a comparable player to Ogletree would cost more than the 42 million/30 guaranteed.
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Randy Moss was traded for a 4th.
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
I think the Rams were really dumping his salary. DG probably figures that with the cap rising to 177 million, a comparable player to Ogletree would cost more than the 42 million/30 guaranteed.
it's only 39 million/10 guaranteed to the Giants, with the 6 million 2019 roster bonus guaranteed for injury only.
The Mike post 3/6/2018 - ( New Window )
it's only 39 million/10 guaranteed to the Giants, with the 6 million 2019 roster bonus guaranteed for injury only.
Good point. DG basically traded a comp 4th and switched a 6/7th to save about 25 million in guaranteed money he would have to pay for a comparable player. That's a great hedge imo
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In comment 13853840 Vanzetti said:
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So they have Goodson and Ogletree inside.
Who are the outside LBers?
Probably Vernon and JPP. Maybe Kennard.
I think you'll see JPP all over the place but primarily with his hand in the dirt next to Snacks and Tomlinson. Vernon more of your traditional 3-4 OLB.
With the switch of DRC to safety and this move, you're starting to see Bettcher's D come together. When looking at what he did in Arizona, those were the two slots we were clearly missing.
Yup good points. Obviously need another OLB and depth, but great to fill this need befor FA starts
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picks if Pugh and/or Richburg sign elsewhere, especially at the inflated $$s being bandied about? Anybody know for sure? If so, that almost makes this a freebie.
Good question - could be offset by FAs we sign, right?
Maybe. I don't really know the rules, but it seems logical.
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it's only 39 million/10 guaranteed to the Giants, with the 6 million 2019 roster bonus guaranteed for injury only.
Good point. DG basically traded a comp 4th and switched a 6/7th to save about 25 million in guaranteed money he would have to pay for a comparable player. That's a great hedge imo
The Giants are top heavy roster wise with a lot of holes to fill and a brand new coaching staff, they should be a very attractive UDFA destination next year. I'm not worried about the late pick at all, we'll get comparable talent after the draft.
Cool how you linked to a prior thread and, specifically, to one of your posts. How exactly does one do that?
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In comment 13853843 Victor in CT said:
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picks if Pugh and/or Richburg sign elsewhere, especially at the inflated $$s being bandied about? Anybody know for sure? If so, that almost makes this a freebie.
Good question - could be offset by FAs we sign, right?
Maybe. I don't really know the rules, but it seems logical.
Exactly. If Giants had signed a free agent LB, it would offset whatever comp picks they get for Pugh, Richburg, Kennard etc . . .
So, basically, Giants should get back the comp pick next year assuming they do not sign any major free agents . . .
There's gonna be a reckoning when we have to pay Beckham.
He is strong in covering TE and RB over the middle. How many times did we see QBs avoid the Giants rush with dump off passes over the middle? So, AO can help generate sacks in other ways than getting to the QB himself
I think it is a good move
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Randy Moss was traded for a 4th.
From Minnesota? True, though at the time it was thought that he had declined and we quickly learned that wasn't the case and it was a bonehead move.
But ogletree at his best isn't anywhere near that level of talent.
There's gonna be a reckoning when we have to pay Beckham.
They have 22 million coming off with Eli's contract expiring after next year.
That's the money to pay OBJ. The contract just needs to be structured with a low cap hit in Eli's final year
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In comment 13853851 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
Quote:
The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Randy Moss was traded for a 4th.
From Minnesota? True, though at the time it was thought that he had declined and we quickly learned that wasn't the case and it was a bonehead move.
But ogletree at his best isn't anywhere near that level of talent.
Moss came from Oakland. A lot of people thought he was done because he basically just jogged through his routes with piss-poor RAiders. Made zero effort. But obviously BB could see he was not done.
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
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In comment 13853851 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13853820 cjac said:
Quote:
The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Randy Moss was traded for a 4th.
From Minnesota? True, though at the time it was thought that he had declined and we quickly learned that wasn't the case and it was a bonehead move.
But ogletree at his best isn't anywhere near that level of talent.
Oakland
....Now Q another great snacks like huge nose type DT keep these types of ulbs clean.
Lowell Lotulele or similar Vita Vea or the other... one forgot the name.
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So much $ is tied into the defensive side of the ball
There's gonna be a reckoning when we have to pay Beckham.
They have 22 million coming off with Eli's contract expiring after next year.
That's the money to pay OBJ. The contract just needs to be structured with a low cap hit in Eli's final year
Exactly right!
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In comment 13853830 Ryan in Albany said:
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Pat Kirwan
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
The reason given for him being traded is he does not fir in a 3-4 defense that Wade runs. I think we show a few 3-4 looks here and there but I believe we are staying in a 4-3 for the foreseeable future.
The Ogletree trade continued the Rams' theme of opening salary cap space by parting with players they believed to be ill-fitting parts for defensive coordinator Wade Phillips' 3-4 defense, which was also a reason they dealt outside linebacker Robert Quinn to the Miami Dolphins last week.
Why would we trade for a guy who does not play a 3-4. I think we are staying in a 4-3.
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In comment 13853832 Emil said:
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In comment 13853830 Ryan in Albany said:
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Pat Kirwan
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5m5 minutes ago
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
The reason given for him being traded is he does not fir in a 3-4 defense that Wade runs. I think we show a few 3-4 looks here and there but I believe we are staying in a 4-3 for the foreseeable future.
Right - the linebackers as configured in 3-4 assuming they sign kennard of ogletree/goodson/kennard/vernon can easily reconfigure to 4-3 with Vernon moving to DE and ogletree moving to the SAM or WILL... the athleticism of Ogletree and Vernon gives Bettcher lots of defensive flexibility...
There's gonna be a reckoning when we have to pay Beckham.
Which is why drafting a QB with the #2 pick is important. Once Eli's contract ends,The new QB will be making minimal amounts,freeing up $$$ for OBJ.
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Several players mentioned:
Randy Moss
Robert Quinn
LeSean McCoy
DeMarco Murray
Marcus Peters
Aqib Talib
Tony Gonzalez (not for less, but a 2nd round pick)
and more...
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13853820 cjac said:
Quote:
The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
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In comment 13853854 Vanzetti said:
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In comment 13853832 Emil said:
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In comment 13853830 Ryan in Albany said:
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Pat Kirwan
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5m5 minutes ago
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really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
Genius
That would increase the cap hit in subsquent years. If Kirwin is right, it means Gettlemen believes this team can compete for a playoff spot the next two years.
I also would not be surprised to see DG try to trade either JPP or OV. Neither guy is really a 3-4 DE
The reason given for him being traded is he does not fir in a 3-4 defense that Wade runs. I think we show a few 3-4 looks here and there but I believe we are staying in a 4-3 for the foreseeable future.
Right - the linebackers as configured in 3-4 assuming they sign kennard of ogletree/goodson/kennard/vernon can easily reconfigure to 4-3 with Vernon moving to DE and ogletree moving to the SAM or WILL... the athleticism of Ogletree and Vernon gives Bettcher lots of defensive flexibility...
Without getting into great detail, think of the Rams 3-4 similar to the Texans 3-4. Features an unstoppable DE in both cases (Watt and Donald). Bettcher's 3-4 has been very different and much more varied. Ogeltree makes more sense here than he did in LA.
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Several players mentioned:
Randy Moss
Robert Quinn
LeSean McCoy
DeMarco Murray
Marcus Peters
Aqib Talib
Tony Gonzalez (not for less, but a 2nd round pick)
and more...
Murray wasn't a trade.
Peters was traded for a 4th and a 2019 2nd.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not negative about it. I just want to know why an ascending team trying to compete is giving away a starter for not very much of anything.
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In comment 13853851 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
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In comment 13853900 Emil said:
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In comment 13853851 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
sigh...NFL career
But what do I know?
I'm in agreement with you. We need players. Having only 5 picks now is not what I expected; though neither am I thinking we'd have AO. If he doesn't slide down on the #2, I think DG may slide from the 34 if upper level OLs are swept up by 34.
Don't know if Norwells a "lock" but at least one other non- NYG OL must be on their rapid beeping radar to hedge vs. what I said about the #34.
Very good. Carry on.
Que Snacks cloning. Que drafting more quick little lb/s zone types.
Que trade down.
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In comment 13853900 Emil said:
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In comment 13853851 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
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In comment 13853851 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Several players mentioned:
Randy Moss
Robert Quinn
LeSean McCoy
DeMarco Murray
Marcus Peters
Aqib Talib
Tony Gonzalez (not for less, but a 2nd round pick)
and more...
Murray wasn't a trade.
Peters was traded for a 4th and a 2019 2nd.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not negative about it. I just want to know why an ascending team trying to compete is giving away a starter for not very much of anything.
Murray was traded by the Eagles to the Titans and all it cost TEN was a swap of 4th round picks with the Eagles.
This is the best LB we'll have on this roster since Pierce.
The price wasn't steep at all. He's 26 years old, he's very productive. He's a leader.
This is an excellent move.
Everyone has been whining (rightfully) that we have no linebackers - well, now we have a fucking linebacker!
Murray was traded by the Eagles to the Titans and all it cost TEN was a swap of 4th round picks with the Eagles.
Murray had his worst season as a pro in the year with Philly. I think he was actually benched.
What I meant was that it's odd to me that a good player would be moved for so little.
this is a great trade!
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
I
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Several players mentioned:
Randy Moss
Robert Quinn
LeSean McCoy
DeMarco Murray
Marcus Peters
Aqib Talib
Tony Gonzalez (not for less, but a 2nd round pick)
and more...
Jay Ajai
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In comment 13853932 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853900 Emil said:
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In comment 13853851 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
Didn't he man the middle of Williams' 4-3 in 2016 and have his most productive season there?
He's probably better suited to play WILL, but I didn't think he played poorly at all when he was a MIKE.
My question exactly
I was wondering if there had ever been a good player traded for such a return.
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Didn't he man the middle of Williams' 4-3 in 2016 and have his most productive season there?
He's probably better suited to play WILL, but I didn't think he played poorly at all when he was a MIKE.
In a 4-3 he is the Will and in a 3-4 he is an inside backer with Goodson
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In comment 13853977 Sy'56 said:
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Didn't he man the middle of Williams' 4-3 in 2016 and have his most productive season there?
He's probably better suited to play WILL, but I didn't think he played poorly at all when he was a MIKE.
In a 4-3 he is the Will and in a 3-4 he is an inside backer with Goodson
But the last time he played in a 4-3, he was the MIKE.. not the WILL.
Unless I am mistaken - but I remember him playing in the middle in 2016. Not on the outside.
Fair point, conversation closed.
-Jerry Reese
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In comment 13853994 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13853977 Sy'56 said:
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Didn't he man the middle of Williams' 4-3 in 2016 and have his most productive season there?
He's probably better suited to play WILL, but I didn't think he played poorly at all when he was a MIKE.
In a 4-3 he is the Will and in a 3-4 he is an inside backer with Goodson
But the last time he played in a 4-3, he was the MIKE.. not the WILL.
Unless I am mistaken - but I remember him playing in the middle in 2016. Not on the outside.
That is true but Sy is right, he is better aligned as the WILL linebacker in both schemes because of his athleticism. Goodson is the better MIKE
Jon, that's kinda what I thought, but didn't want to assume that is what Sy meant.
He routinely whiffs in the run game. He was miscast as a 3-4 ILB and maybe just as a MLB period. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move him back outside. He was not worth his contract and I'm fully behind this move. Wade is making his voice heard loud and clear. The only downside to this is he was such a leader on defense. The Giants just got a tremendous guy for their locker room.
A fact we all need to remember.
I don't think this affects the #2 pick at all. If the guy he wants is there he will take him. If he gets a great offer for the pick he might trade it.
Think of AO as this years 4th pick (comp). Pretty good getting a starter with that pick.
He routinely whiffs in the run game. He was miscast as a 3-4 ILB and maybe just as a MLB period. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move him back outside. He was not worth his contract and I'm fully behind this move. Wade is making his voice heard loud and clear. The only downside to this is he was such a leader on defense. The Giants just got a tremendous guy for their locker room.
Naturally they would say this to justify to fans... But take a look at the game he had against the Saints in critical game late last year and his stops on both Kamara and Ingram. He is very athletic and better than anyone the giants currently have. And obviously Bettcher knows him very well having played against him twice a year in Arizona. But his leadership is what is most exciting here - Giants have not had this kind of vocal leadership at linebacker since Pierce... it has been sorely needed and IMO the missing element on the defense over the last decade...
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1:03 PM - 7 Mar 2018
This. I think the move of DRC to FS and this acquisition are pretty big clues that Bettcher is looking to replicate what he did in Arizona. We acquired Ogletree through a trade prior to free agency, so he clearly targeted with a defined role in mind. It's pretty easy to see that he'll be in that Sean Witherspoon/Deone Buchanon role.
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They were also college teammates.
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Giants made it clear today that they are not picking a QB in draft. They are clearly going to be aggressive in trying to win as much as they can before Eli is done. Teams with cap challenges and important FAs do not trade draft picks for players unless the plan is short term
Wade's version of the 3-4 is very interesting. It's not a traditional bill parcells/belichick 3-4 defense.
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Giants made it clear today that they are not picking a QB in draft. They are clearly going to be aggressive in trying to win as much as they can before Eli is done. Teams with cap challenges and important FAs do not trade draft picks for players unless the plan is short term
I wonder if Banner noticed that the 4th that they traded was their conditional pick. This deal is essentially a 5th and 6th rounder.
I wonder if Banner noticed that the 4th that they traded was their conditional pick. This deal is essentially a 5th and 6th rounder.
Yeah I'm not sure he realized that...but he raises an interesting point. I think it's still a good trade whether you are going for it or rebuilding.
Come on folks, get a clue!
Had to give up 2 non premium picks to do it, but they got a good player. Hankins and a 6th for Ogletree is a good trade.
Pat Kirwan: really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
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Remember, though, he and Odell are what started the sideline brawl when we played the Rams...
Ogletree tackled Odell late, out of bounds and Odell threw the ball at him, starting everything
Eh, no big deal. This actually reduces the Giants chance of getting a 15 yard penalty given that they will both wear blue.
I think you can still get 15 for fighting with a teammate
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
Agreed, bw.. it's a good move for us.
We're acknowledging that the LB position exists!
That in, an of itself, is a big deal to me.
It's clear the NYGs have to mic him up for every game if he plays like that "wired". (smile)
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defense. I guess Wade Phillips prefers size/stoutness over speed.
Wade's version of the 3-4 is very interesting. It's not a traditional bill parcells/belichick 3-4 defense.
How many superbowls has he won?
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
Agreed. Add in that the cap rules make it very preferable to acquire a veteran this way with his previous team paying out the signing bonus money vs. being the original contracted team on the hook for dead money. I think Kirwan is on to something with re-allocated the guaranteed roster bonus, but even still over the 3 years the Giants are responsible for a very small amount of guaranteed money compared to what any very good FA LB would get.
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In comment 13854028 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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defense. I guess Wade Phillips prefers size/stoutness over speed.
Wade's version of the 3-4 is very interesting. It's not a traditional bill parcells/belichick 3-4 defense.
How many superbowls has he won?
Half as many as Parcells and Coughlin.
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
NYG will likely run a hybrid scheme, where the WILL is always present. If I have the Cardinals scheme down correctly from last year, he might end up being the Buchanon role. Somewhat of a roamer, a lot of space/pursuit...etc. Goodson plays the inside role with more traffic and contact
The Giants effectively as is signed a 26 year old LBer, a year removed from a 2nd team All Pro year, to 2-year 22M contract.
In zero worlds is that a bad deal.
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In comment 13853977 Sy'56 said:
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
NYG will likely run a hybrid scheme, where the WILL is always present. If I have the Cardinals scheme down correctly from last year, he might end up being the Buchanon role. Somewhat of a roamer, a lot of space/pursuit...etc. Goodson plays the inside role with more traffic and contact
Thank you Sy, my thought as well.
I'm thinking our defense can bounce back this year from last year's debacle. I think Cromartie will be the starting FS and he can still cover. I think the DL can bounce back if healthy. If Goodson can stay healthy and play to his abilities we'll be ok.
Health; a good draft; some UFA's of merit; and, well we can bounce back to a winning season, even if its just 9 - 7.
value. I would have offered the 4th round 2019, they can accept it or maybe end up cutting him if no one else bites. Ogletree may help us but he is not going to make this defense special all by himself.
Giants: Trade for strong LB.
Giants fans: Why did we trade for a LB?
Carl Banks absolutely loves the guy and thinks this was an outstanding trade
value. I would have offered the 4th round 2019, they can accept it or maybe end up cutting him if no one else bites. Ogletree may help us but he is not going to make this defense special all by himself.
You are mad about a 6th rounder? Jesus. Your entire view on this is way off, IMO. We gave up what is essentially a 5th round pick and a throw away 6th for a guy who may be the best LBer we've had since a healthy Boley (better than Boley most likely).
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Giants fans: We need stronger LBs.
Giants: Trade for strong LB.
Giants fans: Why did we trade for a LB?
Carl Banks absolutely loves the guy and thinks this was an outstanding trade
Having the extra fourth rounder made this move a no brainer.
They desperately needed an athletic LB, now they have one, they haven't hurt their draft much and they have the ammunition to get more picks if they choose to.
There's very little defense in the NFL overall these days so I'm not saying this is the 2000 ravens, but there aren't many teams who have that much defensive talent. Fix the OL so the time of possession/turnover battle/field so the field isn't slanted against us plus a couple good draft picks and this defense is going to be very interesting.
Capitalizing the word "CAP" doesn't make you any less clueless about the way it works.
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Wait, what? Are you fucking serious about McCoy being a HoF player?
Just when I had thought I had seen it all.
Then they should manage their cap better. Theres no reason not to be able to afford a top QB and DT in todays cap structure. Also, hes been traded because he also doesnt fit heir scheme, this isnt purely a salary dump.
Giants will be able to afford Eli, Beckham on a new deal, and the big 3 signings from 2016, in addition to having enough room to go after a top OLman in FA. so who cares what the rams are doing.
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In comment 13853958 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Wait, what? Are you fucking serious about McCoy being a HoF player?
Just when I had thought I had seen it all.
Hey no need for the language buddy. Not as ludicrous as you think it is either. Hes top 30 all time in rushing as it is. If he plays two more years, and he will probably play that and more, hell get over 12,000 yds and that makes him a near shoe in. Only 16 backs have 12,000 career rushing yds or more and 13 of them are in the Hall. Im not even taking his receiving yds into the equation.
So yeah, hes gonna be a hall of famer
And theyre gonna have to pay Gurley.
It's ridiculous that this sport where every team is worth a billion dollars still has a salary cap.
He's a leader, from one of top colleges in the country.
We haven't had as prominent a LB as this for a long time.
Now let's draft one.
It's ridiculous that this sport where every team is worth a billion dollars still has a salary cap.
On this I completely agree. The salary cap sucks.
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
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for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
That's a dangerous game. Didn't a bunch of NBA teams just get caught in shitty contracts because the cap unexpectedly went down?
But even regardless of that, while cap hell is no longer a realty the cap does still influence decision making. We're seeing it with the Rams. Is it mismanagement, or are they now the victims of their own good drafting?
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In comment 13854329 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
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In comment 13854336 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13854329 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
I don't think anyone is saying the "cap doesn't matter" as much as they're saying it's more maneuverable than others believe.
Again - how many times have the Giants lost a quality player to FA with the primary reason being that they couldn't afford to pay him in recent years?
It's entirely possible that LAR traded Ogletree because they felt he wasn't a great fit for Wade's defense and wanted to recoup some assets instead. His play wasn't quite as good this past year as it was when Williams was there.
If your argument is that teams can't keep everyone... no shit. I think most people know that.
I don't think people are arguing otherwise.
The cap simply isn't as restrictive as some seem to think.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
Then there's Goff and Gurley in a couple years...
That 40 million is going to go pretty quickly.
The Giants havent had any issues in recent years because their roster hasnt been that talented. Look at the guys they let walk after their rookie deals. Look at their posture towards Richberg/Pugh.
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for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
That's a dangerous game. Didn't a bunch of NBA teams just get caught in shitty contracts because the cap unexpectedly went down?
But even regardless of that, while cap hell is no longer a realty the cap does still influence decision making. We're seeing it with the Rams. Is it mismanagement, or are they now the victims of their own good drafting?
It's a symptom of a crappy system. It's so bizarre that the NFL actively punishes teams for hitting home runs in the draft. No other sport does this, even capped sports. The NBA encourages teams to keep their own talent by giving the home team the ability to offer more contract years and go over cap for their own players.
Yes, you have to prioritize certain players.
If Weston Richburg had performed much better the last 2 seasons, or of Justin Pugh could actually stay on the field, I have a feeling NYG would be more focused on retaining them.
Letting them go probably has just as much to do with performance/durability as it does the cap.
Players like Beckham and Collins won't go anywhere because the Giants will make them priorities.
Just like LAR won't lose Gurley or Donald. They'll pay both players and keep them.
Sure, there are cap casualties - but most of the time, it's players whom execs feel are either getting old and won't provide proper ROI, are injury prone, or have flat underperformed.
The vast majority of the UFA's are JAG's and garbage.
There are some quality players. But for the most part, if a team really wants to keep a player, they will. Even if they have to utilize the option of tagging them to do so.
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have cap issues?
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
Then there's Goff and Gurley in a couple years...
That 40 million is going to go pretty quickly.
The $40M is this year (2018), right now they're projected at ~$97M in available space in 2019 and over $140M in 2020 (estimated for both).
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
The Giants value that player relative to their present and are not tied to anything long-term.
This isn't anything indicative of some issue in the system.
The Giants defense has been missing a vocal leader.... supposedly, he is more leader/locker room guy then anything else....but still a major upgrade for us.
The defense disfunction could be resolved with a leader like him
Remember Beason? He comes here and makes a simple play that an average linebacker should make, and BBI went Lady Gaga.....
But it also showed, how much the position had been ignored...Shame on you Reese....
I do not think, signing one linebacker turns us into a 3-4 defense.....especially since the only other linebacker you really have can't stay on the field...
Also, it's amazing how excited some on BBI are getting, over the acquisition of of a 7th rounder next year.....maybe we can use it to trade up to get another Bisnowaty......OK, another shot at Reese.....
The draft, if we are lucky, usually produces one legitimate starter, and maybe a body, as a starter....if any other draft picks stick, they are ST's or backups at best.....
Of course, that was the MO of Reese and Co., hopefully Gettleman changes that......would be nice to get some "playahs" after the second round....
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
The position has been that the cap is increasingly becoming a non-issue while some posters continue to look at it like they did in the 90's. I posted a stat that in 1999, over half the teams in the league were over the cap and had to make cuts or restructure contracts. In the past few years, the number of teams has been less than 5 each year.
Also, people keep pointing to Vernon and JPP's contracts (as well as Eli's) as limitations on who we can sign, yet all of them have reasonable cap hits that have been managed well and can come off the books next year with limited exposure.
By the way - Ogletree is probably a poor example of a cap move. It could be that the Rams don't want to spend to the cap or that they want to resign other players and are hedging against longer-term issues, but they still have a lot of cap room and traditionally stay well below the cap.
He's a leader, from one of top colleges in the country.
We haven't had as prominent a LB as this for a long time.
Now let's draft one.
How about another Georgia LB in Lorenzo Carter ( round 2? )
That's because he was traded. The Rams assumed the balance of his amortized signing bonus (a $6.4MM dead money hit to them this year). The only guaranteed money the Giants will have to pay will be roster bonuses this year and next.
I wouldn't necessarily call his contract team-friendly in any way other than all traded contracts become team-friendly in terms of the escape hatch that the trade creates (because the signing bonus stays with the original team). $10MM/yr isn't cheap for a LB, so in that way, it's not particularly team-friendly. IMO, a team-friendly contract should be one that the team benefits by honoring, not simply one that is easy to get out of.
That said, he is compensated above value for a LB. It wasn't a good contract the Rams got into, and they bought themselves out of it.
@nfldraftupdate
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New Giants LB Alec Ogletree is probably too limited vs. Pass to ever justify the ~$8.5M APY he earns, which calls to question why the Rams gave it to him.
Either way, really good (100-110 tackle per year) guy. Just on bad deal. Will have superior value to Big Blue's base setup.
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have cap issues?
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
Watkins, long term? I know people keep waiting for him to show his potential, but those 39 catches last year must have been impressive for them to ditch their starting linebacker for a kicking tee so they can sign Watkins long-term.
Gurley they have two more years (4th year of his contract and 5th year option) before they need to extend him not to mention the FT.
Goff they have one more year than that. Ogletree would have been cuttable before they need to extend any of those guys except Donald.
And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
can't be both, unless it's only the Giants where the salary cap is a mythical limitation and they have super powers to get around it.
@nfldraftupdate
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New Giants LB Alec Ogletree is probably too limited vs. Pass to ever justify the ~$8.5M APY he earns, which calls to question why the Rams gave it to him.
Either way, really good (100-110 tackle per year) guy. Just on bad deal. Will have superior value to Big Blue's base setup.
He was 2nd among linebackers in pass breakups.
Not sure who that guy is but he seems pretty clueless.
Add those situations to Donald's $100m extension negotiations and they have some maneuvering to do even before Gurley and Goff come up. Seems like they just decided they could get an asset that's almost the equivalent of what they'd get via a FA compensation pick (4th) and clear Ogletree's money after this year.
It's ridiculous that this sport where every team is worth a billion dollars still has a salary cap.
Yes, thank you for bringing this up. I completely agree. I have been bitching about this for awhile. It drives me crazy that even mediocre QBs are getting paid through the roof then they complain that the owners can't put a great team around them.
They just look at the NBA salaries like it is a fair comparison. The QB wants to eat a 6th of the teams cap space on a 53 man roster. At the very least the NFL should move to a soft cap and let the owners pay a luxury tax for exceeding it.
On the other hand a roster w 70 guys is exactly why there is a cap. If football were to lose popularity or tv money, the place would go bankrupt trying to sustain money to function on gste revenue alone w only 8-12 games a year
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In comment 13854373 pjcas18 said:
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have cap issues?
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
Then there's Goff and Gurley in a couple years...
That 40 million is going to go pretty quickly.
The $40M is this year (2018), right now they're projected at ~$97M in available space in 2019 and over $140M in 2020 (estimated for both).
And those players I listed will dramatically change those numbers. I think you're underestimating the contracts they're about to receive.
You're partly right. It was a bad contract for them. He was just a poor fit for Wade Phillips defense and they have too many guys that need to be paid in the next few years. Donald (who held out last year) and Gurley are no brainers and they appear to want to resign Johnson and Watkins (not sure why here). To answer your question on why they dealt him now instead of waiting...they had to. He has a 7m dollar roster bonus kicking in this week and a 6m dollar roster bonus hitting next year.
For those saying 10m/yr is pricey for a LB, hold that thought until we see what Bradhsm gets. They're comparable players, both in age and skillset. I'm guessing he gets more annually and probably twice the guarantee money that we're on the hook for with Ogletree.
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In comment 13854373 pjcas18 said:
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have cap issues?
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
Watkins, long term? I know people keep waiting for him to show his potential, but those 39 catches last year must have been impressive for them to ditch their starting linebacker for a kicking tee so they can sign Watkins long-term.
Gurley they have two more years (4th year of his contract and 5th year option) before they need to extend him not to mention the FT.
Goff they have one more year than that. Ogletree would have been cuttable before they need to extend any of those guys except Donald.
But the sooner you extend them, the cheaper it can be long term. And Donald has a shot at being the highest paid defender in the NFL
And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
On the surface I can see why you feel that way but..
After Quinn parting ways with one of their inside LBs just made the most sense. Barron recently had shoulder surgery, he wouldn't pass a physical and you could probably argue he doesn't have the trade value Ogletree has anyway. Ogletree was due a 7 million roster bonus on the 16th.
Two players (Darnold and Goff) are about to receive 100 million dollar contracts with in the next 3 years. Gurley will be paid the highest at his position in the next 2 years. Joyner, Watkins, and Peters will all be paid among the highest at their positions some time between now and next offseason. They don't want to lose Johnson or Robey-Coleman but they'll more than likely have to choose the lesser of the two (RC). If they want to retain all those pieces they have to start the process of moving money now.
The comparison with the Giants just isn't there. They have Beckham and Collins to resign with in the next two years while Eli will be coming off the books during that time.
Besides we won our last superbowls with pedestrian type linebackers...
[quote] He can be the leader this team needs to get the defense back into form.
Besides leadership biggest issue for me is talent! For a franchise that once featured LB to build its D: HUFF. LIVINGSTON, CARSON, VAN PELT, LT, ETC. their lack of emphasis in stocking up on high quality LB talent has been sadly lacking in this millennium!
I'm still not clear on the Sammie Watkins love, he hasn't quite been a bust, but he's also clearly not an elite player (so far).
I'm still not clear on the Sammie Watkins love, he hasn't quite been a bust, but he's also clearly not an elite player (so far).
Sammy
I'm still not clear on the Sammie Watkins love, he hasn't quite been a bust, but he's also clearly not an elite player (so far).
Watkins is still viewed by many as a #1 WR. He's a 24 year old with untapped potential. There's plenty of teams with young QBs who want Watkins. The market would be very strong for him.
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and a DT that's on a hall of fame career trajectory. They can either pay them or go back to being largely irrelevant.
It's ridiculous that this sport where every team is worth a billion dollars still has a salary cap.
On this I completely agree. The salary cap sucks.
Salary cap keeps an even playing field (although I hate losing good players. Don't assume that the giants would be one of the biggest spenders, for instance Paul Allen owns the Seahawks and could easily outspend all the other teams.
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among the highest at his position?
I'm still not clear on the Sammie Watkins love, he hasn't quite been a bust, but he's also clearly not an elite player (so far).
Watkins is still viewed by many as a #1 WR. He's a 24 year old with untapped potential. There's plenty of teams with young QBs who want Watkins. The market would be very strong for him.
He's barely top 10 from his draft class, let alone a #1 NFL WR. Devonta Freeman (a RB) has more receptions than he does from that draft class.
He's the 3rd WR on his team.
I don't honestly believe the market is a strong for him as others maybe believe.
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In comment 13854880 pjcas18 said:
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among the highest at his position?
I'm still not clear on the Sammie Watkins love, he hasn't quite been a bust, but he's also clearly not an elite player (so far).
Watkins is still viewed by many as a #1 WR. He's a 24 year old with untapped potential. There's plenty of teams with young QBs who want Watkins. The market would be very strong for him.
He's barely top 10 from his draft class, let alone a #1 NFL WR. Devonta Freeman (a RB) has more receptions than he does from that draft class.
He's the 3rd WR on his team.
I don't honestly believe the market is a strong for him as others maybe believe.
I suppose we'll see very soon.
can't be both, unless it's only the Giants where the salary cap is a mythical limitation and they have super powers to get around it.
It is closer to the truth, he was traded because the Rams gave him a poor contract and they decided to get at least something back for him.
Neither the Rams nor the Giants are in a bad cap situation. I think that idea was floated by somebody above and then others just jumped on the idea that it was correct.
Because if it was a poor contract for LAR, its a poor contract for us, unless Im missing a piece of the caplology.
The signing bonus was tiny. We inherit the roster bonuses, and for as long as hes a NYG hes a $10M cap hit (barring a restructure to simply kick some of it down the road, which I abhor), same as he would have been on LARs books.
Am I wrong here? Ive been hoping that Im missing a piece of the cap story here.
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And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
can't be both, unless it's only the Giants where the salary cap is a mythical limitation and they have super powers to get around it.
It is closer to the truth, he was traded because the Rams gave him a poor contract and they decided to get at least something back for him.
Neither the Rams nor the Giants are in a bad cap situation. I think that idea was floated by somebody above and then others just jumped on the idea that it was correct.
Agree. I think the Rams are in fine cap shape, especially for a team that is (in theory at least) already a contender.
Even with all the contracts they'll need to dish out to keep their own players in the next 2 - 3 years I think they're in good cap shape.
I think they had buyers remorse and found Ogletree to not be the best fit with their D.
Giants luck out because with the trade the guarantees accelerate and he becomes cuttable without any pain should the Giants choose to cut him or they can even restructure the deal and lower the cap number. All that was ventured (of value) was a late 4th round pick. No brainer trade for the Giants.
I don't think the Giants cap situation is dire, but I do think it will limit the moves they are able to make. Put it this way, if the Giants had the Browns cap space I think they'd make more of a free agent splash. The reason they won't is because they can't IMO.
They'll sign some players (hopefully Norwell) and maybe others, but I believe they will be more limited than a 3 - 13 team should be. Just my opinion.
bigbluehoya : 5:32 pm : link : reply
If I understand your post correctly, you dont like this move for the Giants, correct?
Because if it was a poor contract for LAR, its a poor contract for us, unless Im missing a piece of the caplology.
My post is that the Rams didn't appear to be happy with his productions vs. what they were paying him. I don't mind the contract for the Giants because:
- He is affordable - the Rams are on the hook for ancillary parts
- The Giants need a competent LB.
Why do you and others keep trying to make this about a cap move? Also, it is a cheaper contract for the Giants because they don't have to be liable for the bonus. We just had a thread going about DeMarco Murray being a cap cut. How about a cut for a guy who is on the wrong side of age and injuries?
And don't misconstrue that to mean that any move is made without some consideration of the cap - just that it isn't often a primary motive.
You said the Rams gave him a poor contract in your previous post. Hence my question.
When you say hes affordable, what do you mean by that? By all reports, seems that Ogletree will be 3 years of a $10M cap hit to the Giants followed by a final year at $9M.
Doesnt seem like a bargain by any means. Maybe its a contract right at market value; that would imply pretty damned good production. Definitely possible.
My overall point is that trading draft picks for players already being paid every penny of their market value, as would seem to be the case here, is an approach that I have concerns with in principle.
You said the Rams gave him a poor contract in your previous post. Hence my question.
When you say hes affordable, what do you mean by that? By all reports, seems that Ogletree will be 3 years of a $10M cap hit to the Giants followed by a final year at $9M.
The contract cap hit is based on a 7m roster bonus that's due in 8 days. The Giants can convert that money into a signing bonus which reduces his cap hit and gives them more maneuverability. This has been reported since the trade.
Raanan: Ogletree currently costs $10 million against the salary cap this season, even though it can be creatively reduced to $4.5 million if the Giants convert his upcoming roster bonus next week into a signing bonus. But that will cost them down the line, which brings into question whether this is the right move for this team at this moment.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/56379/why-alec-ogletree-can-be-viewed-as-a-great-trade-for-the-giants
The "it will cost them down the line" refers to the fact that by converting it to a signing bonus, you're trading situations. Right now he's expensive, but they can easily get out of the deal in a year if they don't touch it. Or they can slash the cap hit, but they'd likely be locking in his deal longer-term.
Doesnt change my general concern. But there are several things about this trade that make me happy
-LINEBACKER LIVES MATTER
-26 years old and under contract The contract isnt a bargain by any means, but (barring a significant conversion of salary to signing bonus) it means you can cut the player at any time in the future with very little dead money.
-shows a willingness to go out a do significant things in the trade market, which is something that I wanted from the new regime.