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The writing is on the wall

Breeze_94 : 3/7/2018 5:35 pm
The Ogletree trade is just another sign, IMO, that the Giants are not taking a QB 2nd overall. Instead, they are focusing on putting the best possible roster around Eli Manning.

Teams who are taking a young QB usually don't trade draft picks to acquire players who are in the prime of their career. This is a win-now move, and I feel like the #2 pick will also be a win-now move rather than taking a rookie QB who is going to sit on the bench.

IMO, the pick is either going to be Barkley, Chubb, or possibly a trade down to 5 or 6 to grab Nelson, who likely won't come off the board until the Bucs pick otherwise.

I'm sure some will say this is an overreaction, but everything being reported by the media and said by the Giants brass has been that they won't take a QB.

Now, they move a 32 year old CB to FS instead of getting rid of him to clear cap space to sign younger players, and they trade 2 draft picks for a 26 year old LB who can help them immediately.
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You'd have to be drinking some good stuff to think those games against  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/7/2018 6:29 pm : link
Philly were the "real Eli" and the other 14 games didn't have a bearing.
RE: Thank god there are still people here like BW and Uber  
mfsd : 3/7/2018 6:31 pm : link
In comment 13854035 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
who have a brain. This move has NOTHING to do with pick #2. It's about improving the roster- acquiring talent any way possible. This is not that complicated!


+2. I don't see how this telegraphs anything else the Giants do in FA or the draft. Except we now have one less whole to fill
RE: RE: Would be thrilled with a trade down to 6 for Nelson.  
Eman11 : 3/7/2018 6:31 pm : link
In comment 13853942 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
In comment 13853937 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


They'd get an absolute haul.



Agreed but I think it will be less likely if the Norwell rumors turn out to be true.

Then, I think it comes down to Barkley or Bradley Chubb.

Pretty sure we can rule out a trade down for Edmunds/Roquan


Agreed. I don't think they draft Nelson if they sign Norwell.

I think it's Barkley at 2 if he's there but if he's gone, I think a trade back to either 4 or 5 and they'd go Fitzpatrick if they sign Norwell, Nelson if they don't.
I think you are jumping to conclusions  
Keith : 3/7/2018 6:36 pm : link
a bit here.
RE: Would be brilliant  
djm : 3/7/2018 6:36 pm : link
In comment 13853962 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
considering they're not winning a championship this year.


Right... just like Philly would never win a title ever let alone in 2017.

Save me this crap. Teams surprise all the time. literally... all the time. Fans always say never and then quietly go away when never actually happens.
RE: RE: Would be brilliant  
NYSports1 : 3/7/2018 6:37 pm : link
In comment 13854059 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13853962 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


considering they're not winning a championship this year.



Right... just like Philly would never win a title ever let alone in 2017.

Save me this crap. Teams surprise all the time. literally... all the time. Fans always say never and then quietly go away when never actually happens.


Sorry to break it to you but the Giants are not winning another SB with Eli at qb....Good luck thinking that this will happen....unless the Giants build a HOF team around him and ask him to hand the ball off....ALA PEYTON Manning last year...How are those Broncos doing now?
RE: Confirmation bias strikes again!  
Breeze_94 : 3/7/2018 6:39 pm : link
In comment 13854011 Milton said:
Quote:
Let me guess, Breeze_94, you don't think the Giants should draft a QB with the #2 overall pick.


I actually think they should if there is a guy they really like and believe in
....  
djm : 3/7/2018 6:39 pm : link
I'm not sure why a relatively minor trade for a decent LB indicates anything other than the Giants wanted to add a LB.

this trade doesn't indicate some kind of long term or short term plan. Calm down lol.
RE: RE: ok  
lax counsel : 3/7/2018 6:40 pm : link
In comment 13854042 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13853946 mdthedream said:


Quote:


reality is the Giants where not as bad as they played last year. They lost the entire wr core. The oline will be fixed this year and the defense was not that bad. Hell people where saying the Giants would be in the Superbowl.



Was I dreaming or were the Giants not 0-5 with the full roster healthy? This is a terrible team with an old aging qb and we will regret not taking a qb when for the next decade we are scrambling looking for qb


Agreed. I am extremely skeptical of this franchise. Collectively, this team has not made many good decisions since 2012. Why are we all giving them the benefit of the doubt right now? They should have to endear themselves back to us. To start, the sham GM search should tip us all off that this is more business as usual for this team. They've made the playoffs, what, twice in the past 10 years?

Building around a 37 year old declining qb will set this franchise back far more than being wrong on a qb at 2. I hope that this is not the mind set, because we could end up in a endless loop of a qb search, similar to post Simms.
RE: RE: RE: Would be brilliant  
djm : 3/7/2018 6:40 pm : link
In comment 13854063 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13854059 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 13853962 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


considering they're not winning a championship this year.



Right... just like Philly would never win a title ever let alone in 2017.

Save me this crap. Teams surprise all the time. literally... all the time. Fans always say never and then quietly go away when never actually happens.



Sorry to break it to you but the Giants are not winning another SB with Eli at qb....Good luck thinking that this will happen....unless the Giants build a HOF team around him and ask him to hand the ball off....ALA PEYTON Manning last year...How are those Broncos doing now?


What?
Maybe I would see your point  
Keith : 3/7/2018 6:47 pm : link
if Ogletree was a 32 year old LB. We just traded for a young LB that can improve and make us better in the short and long term.
RE: Maybe I would see your point  
djm : 3/7/2018 6:51 pm : link
In comment 13854086 Keith said:
Quote:
if Ogletree was a 32 year old LB. We just traded for a young LB that can improve and make us better in the short and long term.


No. This is clearly a sign that the Giants are building around Eli. And they have no shot with Eli by the way have you seen the broncos lately??

Ps the broncos did actually win a super bowl with a broken down Peyton. Yeah.
LOL  
Peppers : 3/7/2018 6:56 pm : link
NYG trades for a 26 year old LB..

"We're not drafting a QB" -- Barkley fan

RE: Would be thrilled with a trade down to 6 for Nelson.  
WillVAB : 3/7/2018 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13853937 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
They'd get an absolute haul.


This is what I want, or Chubb at 6. Looks like a safe bet one or the other would be available.

The extra 2ís would let the Giants hit on value at need spots.
Heres what this move is  
twostepgiants : 3/7/2018 6:59 pm : link
Its the "Boss CEO" move which says you come in and make immediate changes in tbe areas of biggest weakness. It breds confidence in new leadership.

The Reese regime left OL and LB completely neglected to the noticement of absoluteky everyone and their brother.

The Boss CEO move is to come in and immediately address OL and LB

Norwell will be the FA move and they went trade route on LB
To follow up  
twostepgiants : 3/7/2018 7:03 pm : link
Watch the reputation of Gettleman when he he has answered OL and LB with Norwell and Ogletree. 2 mid-20s guys locked up long term. And he will have it done by mid-March.
If the Giants tipped their hand shame on them!  
Simms11 : 3/7/2018 7:12 pm : link
I think DG is better then that. We will have no leverage for a trade down if teams know we donít want one of the coveted QBs.
I would be willing to bet that DG  
Dave on the UWS : 3/7/2018 7:23 pm : link
is still thinking about what he would like to do with the 2nd pick. This move is about improving the roster not whether to pick a QB or not.
Iím pretty sure your OP is word for word taken  
Brown Recluse : 3/7/2018 7:26 pm : link
from something I read some place else.

Who did you plagiarize?
The Giants Have To Come Away With Either  
Trainmaster : 3/7/2018 7:45 pm : link
No trade down:

Barkley
Darnold or Rosen

Trade down:
Chubb
Nelson

One of these 5 has to be a Giant by the end of draft day 1.

I hope itís either Barkley straight up or Nelson via trade down.

RE: Sorry  
GFAN52 : 3/7/2018 7:52 pm : link
In comment 13854016 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Looked at the wall. Didnít see any writing on it.


I couldn't resist.

RE: Doesn't anyone think  
Thegratefulhead : 3/7/2018 7:54 pm : link
In comment 13853966 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
IND is going to go hard after Nelson?
Don't know why I didn't think of that. If Luck comes back they must protect him
RE: RE: Doesn't anyone think  
GFAN52 : 3/7/2018 7:56 pm : link
In comment 13854170 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13853966 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


IND is going to go hard after Nelson?

Don't know why I didn't think of that. If Luck comes back they must protect him


There's always the chance that the Browns go with Darnold and we pass on Barkley for Rosen. Then the Colts have Barkley fall into their laps.
RE: Confirmation bias strikes again!  
Thegratefulhead : 3/7/2018 7:58 pm : link
In comment 13854011 Milton said:
Quote:
Let me guess, Breeze_94, you don't think the Giants should draft a QB with the #2 overall pick.

Here is mine DG was clearly talking about Rosen's interview. Definitely going QB at 2 and it will b e Rosen because we need "Smart" players.....This is not sarcasm, I thought we were going Barkley but I am now convinced the will be Rosen. DG was talking in code :)
RE: RE: RE: Would be thrilled with a trade down to 6 for Nelson.  
Kev in Cali : 3/7/2018 8:21 pm : link
In comment 13854052 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 13853942 Breeze_94 said:


Quote:


In comment 13853937 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


They'd get an absolute haul.



Agreed but I think it will be less likely if the Norwell rumors turn out to be true.

Then, I think it comes down to Barkley or Bradley Chubb.

Pretty sure we can rule out a trade down for Edmunds/Roquan



Agreed. I don't think they draft Nelson if they sign Norwell.

I think it's Barkley at 2 if he's there but if he's gone, I think a trade back to either 4 or 5 and they'd go Fitzpatrick if they sign Norwell, Nelson if they don't.


This will be the scenario. You take the best player available at #2. If Barkley is there, you can bet DG will take him. How many running backs of past #1-3 draft positions are of the same caliber of Barkley?? IF he's still there, you can't let that pass you by. I think CLE will take him #1 overall though, he's more of a sure thing than the QB's are....
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/7/2018 8:37 pm : link
I tend to agree with Breeze here. Signs are pointing to the Giants saying Eli isn't done yet...right or wrong. Not just the picks traded, but the cap issue. They can re-structure, but Ogletree has a big cap number for the next four years.
I completely disagree. I think this points to the Giants going QB  
ZogZerg : 3/7/2018 8:47 pm : link
with their first pick, probably Rosen.

They know Eli is short timer and need a long term solution. Plus, they need a "cheap" QB in a couple of years so they can afford OBJ and Collins.

The Chiefs used two #1s and a 3 to draft a QB who sat on the bench all last year. The Chiefs were a playoff team. The Giants only need to use one #1 to get their QB of the future.

The Giants had almost no LBrs on the team. They want to be competitive and made this move. The newD coordinator actually uses LBrs in his defense. Big deal that they gave a couple of day 3 picks.
This isn't necessarily true  
AcesUp : 3/7/2018 8:58 pm : link
It shows a commitment to winning in 2018 and a retooling approach but until they start aggressively maneuvering within the cap through restructures I wouldn't call this a sellout. Ogletree was necessary because we do not have one single LB on the roster with more than a 1m cap hit. We will be undergoing a somewhat significant scheme change, one that called for an athletic LB/S hybrid that wasn't currently on the roster. His contract is cheaper than what we would have to deal to a comparable player in Nigel Bradham on the open market. The deal itself is very cap flexible as it is constructed, we can easily get out of it next year with only a 5.5m dead money hit prior to his second roster bonus.

I can see them drafting QB at 2 while trying to make a run this year. Eli's contract is extremely vulnerable next year, there are cap savings there. This could easily be part of the plan for a seamless transition. If the team is performing well and makes sense to part with Eli, you hand the young QB the reigns to an ascending team. If the bottom falls out, it is now possible to move on from Eli, OV, JPP and even Ogletree clearing out significant cap room. You at least have your QB of the future st this point. I'm not saying that this is their plan, but it is a scenario that makes sense if you look at the way these contracts are constructed.
the year we drafted Eli  
Phil in LA : 3/7/2018 9:06 pm : link
Gettleman was here, and the Giants signed a bunch of FA's, including Kurt Warner to "win now" for their new coach Tom Coughlin.
RE: ...  
Keith : 3/7/2018 9:08 pm : link
In comment 13854222 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I tend to agree with Breeze here. Signs are pointing to the Giants saying Eli isn't done yet...right or wrong. Not just the picks traded, but the cap issue. They can re-structure, but Ogletree has a big cap number for the next four years.


What do you think would be done differently that would tell you we are drafting a qb?
RE: ...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/7/2018 9:18 pm : link
In comment 13854222 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I tend to agree with Breeze here. Signs are pointing to the Giants saying Eli isn't done yet...right or wrong. Not just the picks traded, but the cap issue. They can re-structure, but Ogletree has a big cap number for the next four years.


I really have a hard time thinking that the Giants trading their bonus 4th round pick they didn't even know they were getting two weeks ago is a statement of their plan. It's a really minimal trade.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 3/7/2018 9:25 pm : link
In comment 13854222 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I tend to agree with Breeze here. Signs are pointing to the Giants saying Eli isn't done yet...right or wrong. Not just the picks traded, but the cap issue. They can re-structure, but Ogletree has a big cap number for the next four years.


Was LB a need? Is getting a proven commodity for that need for only a 4th round unproven pick smart? Are contracts always re-negotiated in later years?

If yes to those, WTF does that have to do with Eli?
If it needs to be emphasized, a compensatory pick comes after the  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/7/2018 9:41 pm : link
the regular fourth round picks have been made. They add compensatory picks to the end of the round.

A compensatory 4th is for all intents and purposes a fifth round draft pick.

I donít  
mattyblue : 3/7/2018 9:46 pm : link
envy Gettleman. If he passes on a QB that becomes a stud he will forever be remembered as the GM that screwed the pooch, potentially likewise if he drafts a bust QB. I think the Giants would be very foolish to not draft a QB with #2. Everyone says taking the wrong QB sets you back 5 years. What does not taking a QB and going back to ďQB hellĒ set you back? It seems the latter would be much longer.
RE: If we really think we can win now  
FStubbs : 3/7/2018 9:54 pm : link
In comment 13853960 Essex said:
Quote:
there are a lot of deluded people in our front office. We were 3-13. Does this move make our team better? Yes, it sure does. Can the Giants do anything in the off season other than make us fringe playoff contenders??? Probably not. I canít imagine any general manager in their right mind can think they could fix this that quickly. In that context, the move is a waste.


This. What was that stat again? Beckkham is the only Giant who would absolutely have started for last year's Eagles?
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/7/2018 9:58 pm : link
Quote:
What was that stat again? Beckkham is the only Giant who would absolutely have started for last year's Eagles?


I think you have issues understanding what a stat is
RE: I donít  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/7/2018 10:00 pm : link
In comment 13854334 mattyblue said:
Quote:
envy Gettleman. If he passes on a QB that becomes a stud he will forever be remembered as the GM that screwed the pooch, potentially likewise if he drafts a bust QB. I think the Giants would be very foolish to not draft a QB with #2. Everyone says taking the wrong QB sets you back 5 years. What does not taking a QB and going back to ďQB hellĒ set you back? It seems the latter would be much longer.


Passing on a QB doesn't plunge the team into the stone age, I think it puts them in that miserable 6-10 to 8-8 gray area unless they sell off everyone of value and tank to draft high again, which I don't think they have ever done or want to do.

Whenever Eli moves on, if they don't draft a QB, you're looking at a period of time where they fill the job with whatever floats onto the free agent market at QB.

That's really not an appealing option. Kirk Cousins is the most appealing Free Agent QB to hit the market in a really long time, and I can't imagine anyone here would be okay with that. I wouldn't want to have to give that guy $100m.

RE: ...  
ajr2456 : 3/7/2018 10:46 pm : link
In comment 13854222 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I tend to agree with Breeze here. Signs are pointing to the Giants saying Eli isn't done yet...right or wrong. Not just the picks traded, but the cap issue. They can re-structure, but Ogletree has a big cap number for the next four years.


Or it shows that they're are going to take a QB because they need to get Elis money off the books after 2018.

Short of them signing Cousins or Keenum no free agency move affects them taking a QB 2.
and if that QB of the future is webb?  
msh : 3/8/2018 5:29 am : link
which they have already and cost zero draft picks lets them take one of barkley,chubb,fitzpatrick or nelson i actually think fitzpatrick is plan b if barkley is gone as few have talked of the pick which is why he is in strong consideration would give them a helluva 1,2 punch at safety i think the announcement about DRC is a smoke screen maybe to conceal their interest in him and that DRC stays at CB where they are already thin

beltchers system requires a couple of flexible 4-3/3-4 switch capable LB's to make it work ogletree and possibly kennard could be the guys that make that possible

if they want another QB they could take rudolph in round 2 who i like better than any of the 1st round guys at 2 your not planing on starting anyone but eli next season so a second pick isnt best used there a game changer year 1 is more likely barkley,chubb and fitzpatrick and maybe nelson or brown after a slight move back then get guice or michel maybe with one of the other second round picks a move back nets them assuming barkley is gone elsewhere of course

i dont think the team has been anything but open about the fact they view eli as the guy right now and are hoping for a ransom too good to pass for a team that does want one of the top draft picks at QB and is willing to pay big to get them
There are basically 2 scenarios here....  
Doomster : 3/8/2018 7:24 am : link
One, Cleveland takes a qb with first pick....now the Giants have to make a decision.....pick for now or the future.....if now, you go Barkley......or, if some team comes with a ridiculous compensation for that #2 pick, you jump on it....but if you are picking for the future, and a QB is available that you really want, you go QB......

Cleveland takes Barkley......Giants almost have to pick qb here, for the future......however, if a Mike Ditka GM, is on the phone, you have to listen......

And as we all know, all in all, it's just another brick in the wall....
RE: RE: Post quotes of the Giants brass saying they wont take a qb.  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/8/2018 8:32 am : link
In comment 13853970 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
In comment 13853945 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


This would be news.




Sorry I should have phrased that better- but everything they've said has been hinting towards keeping Eli and building around him/not taking a QB.

-We believe Eli has years left
-That game vs. Philly was not a mirage
-We want to draft a hall of fame caliber player at #2
-We are going to take the best player available
-We graded Davis Webb out highly, we liked him in the 2017 NFL draft

The thing is, all of these so-called hints are exactly the same things you'd expect a team that is dead set on drafting a QB to say. There is nothing to be gleaned from any of the quotes or hints or anything else coming out, because there is really no other message you should be expecting to hear from the team regardless of their intentions.
People can read into the comments all they want  
UberAlias : 3/8/2018 9:16 am : link
But honestly its nothing more than coach speak. Of course they are going to say things like we like Eli has something left and we like Davis Webb. Those are the guys on the roster and there are never any certainties in the draft. And every GM is going to tell you they are going to take the best player available. And they will also tell you whatever guy they draft had the best grade.

RE: ...  
djm : 3/8/2018 10:21 am : link
In comment 13854222 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I tend to agree with Breeze here. Signs are pointing to the Giants saying Eli isn't done yet...right or wrong. Not just the picks traded, but the cap issue. They can re-structure, but Ogletree has a big cap number for the next four years.


What did the Giants do when Eli was a wet nosed 2nd year QB? They went on a spending spree in the 05 offseason.

You guys are reaching.
I'll agree with Breeze's revised thoughts on this....  
Keith : 3/8/2018 10:24 am : link
Everything they are saying is leading him to this conclusion and I don't disagree. However, and more importantly, don't you think Gettleman wants his peers coming to this conclusion as well?

Gettleman has made it clear that he wants to end the leaks and he doesn't want their intentions broadcast across the league. Putting 2 and 2 together is telling me that he's trying ot throw teams off the scent.
Kim Jones was on with Joe and Evan yesterday  
bceagle05 : 3/8/2018 10:24 am : link
and said she left the combine thinking it was more likely the Giants would take a QB at #2, based on what she'd heard. She's very much on the Barkley bandwagon (she's a Penn State alum), and sounded disappointed they may not take him.
RE: RE: Would be thrilled with a trade down to 6 for Nelson.  
Section331 : 3/8/2018 10:26 am : link
In comment 13853947 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 13853937 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


They'd get an absolute haul.


I think Denver at 5 is a real opportunity. No chance we trade with the Jets


I certainly hope we donít rule out a trade because itís the Jets. That would be mind numbing lay stupid.
RE: I'll agree with Breeze's revised thoughts on this....  
Milton : 3/8/2018 10:33 am : link
In comment 13854746 Keith said:
Quote:
Everything they are saying is leading him to this conclusion and I don't disagree.
Nothing he has said leads to that conclusion. Nothing! Not a thing. Not one fucking thing he has said leads to that conclusion.
p.s.--Nada!
Trading Down for Nelson  
Percy : 3/8/2018 10:34 am : link
Looks like a superb idea -- but awfully risky. Say they do that and Nelson goes earlier. Then what? A QB we don't really want? Chubb, who at this time we might not want so much either?
Pissed  
Thegratefulhead : 3/9/2018 11:50 am : link
The more I think about 2011 until now, I get fucking angry. They have all the film, the KNEW what Eli needed to succeed. WTF did they think getting cute, and messing with his footwork and changing the entire offense was a good fucking idea? It was stupid, and they should have known better. We had a recipe that won us 2 SBs in 4 years, what the hell? Pride, it was pride that fucked us. JR was unwilling to admit mistakes and tried to often to make the "I am smarter than everyone" picks. FUCK FUCK FUCK
'that the Giants are not taking a QB 2nd overall'...  
Torrag : 3/9/2018 12:30 pm : link
...really this move doesn't signify anything regarding the #2 pick as it relates to the QB debate. Rather it says what we as fans have known for a decade. That Reese and Co. were clueless when it came to the growing importance of having rangy LB's in today's game.

This is a step to correct this blatant oversight by adding the best LB we've put on the field since Antonio Pierce.
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