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questioning the barkley pick for the giants

RPG33 : 3/8/2018 3:17 am
Not questioning his combine or his abilities or even taking him at #2.

Here's what worries me:

1. He had sub-par rushing games this past year against the likes of rutgers ( 35 yrds !), maryland, indiana, northwestern and georgia STATE...finishing 4th in the big 10 in that category. Injuries, offensive line...maybe those were the issues. But that 's just the kinds of problems the giants tend to have too.

2. He can return kicks but he's too valuable in that role so it why take someone based on that skill that you won't even use as frequently as he did it college?

3. This draft has a lot of RB's that can still help us. Help, not save.

4. We are already getting those dreams of obj, engram and barkley running free through the 2ndary as some sort of three headed blue monster, but we've seen this movie before, as in like every single year we ignore the line... and we know how it ends.

5. Can he run up the gut? I see lots of speed runs and great looking catches, but we need someone who can get it done through the middle.

6. Actually this is #1--the hype train is in full gear for him. He deserves the accolades based on his recent performance and he sounds like a great kid but when everyone is saying the same thing over and over, these days, i get concerned about group think/echo-chambering, whatever you want to term it.

If we have a really good plan to improve the OL this offseason and that plans actually works out, then taking him with our first could be the kind of move that puts us back in the playoffs. But if we whiff again, and we see barkley getting stuffed over and over and then eventually limping off with some issue, then it will be a blue christmas yet again.

For me, the trade today for Tree shows there is a new front office on the job. I think we have a legit shot at a trade down, getting OL help and all kinds of other shots in the arm, including a good RB...just not named barkley.

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Simple answer...  
Keith : 3/8/2018 10:27 am : link
because not every position is valued the same, nor should it. Does the best player make as much as even an average QB? No, because they aren't valued the same.
If he's  
ryanmkeane : 3/8/2018 10:27 am : link
available at 2 there's absolutely zero chance Gettleman is going to pass.
When you are drafting  
ryanmkeane : 3/8/2018 10:28 am : link
at 2 you think to yourself "can this guy be a face of a franchise/game changing/all pro type year over year player"...the answer is yes for Barkley and that's really not even a question that he can be that type of guy.
Does the best guard make as much as the best DE?  
Keith : 3/8/2018 10:28 am : link
Does the best TE make as much as the best WR? Each position is valued differently.
RE: If he's  
Keith : 3/8/2018 10:29 am : link
In comment 13854755 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
available at 2 there's absolutely zero chance Gettleman is going to pass.


I love posts like this. Are you privy to information that even the most clued in people aren't privy to?
Keith  
ryanmkeane : 3/8/2018 10:32 am : link
no..definitely not..just my opinion based on how I see this process coming along for the Giants
Well that's fair,  
Keith : 3/8/2018 10:34 am : link
it's your opinion. I think the Giants were always going to take a QB and everything they have done from last season when Mara announced it until now has reinforced that thought. I'm not sure Barkley's combine changed anything because they already knew how good he is.

I still think the Giants plan on taking a QB.
RE: Well that's fair,  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 13854778 Keith said:
Quote:
it's your opinion. I think the Giants were always going to take a QB and everything they have done from last season when Mara announced it until now has reinforced that thought. I'm not sure Barkley's combine changed anything because they already knew how good he is.

I still think the Giants plan on taking a QB.


When did Mara announce they were taking a QB? I honestly had never heard him say that. I haven't been as up on 'Giants news' as I usually am over the past several months so I might've missed it.
November 2017...  
Keith : 3/8/2018 10:42 am : link
During the Eli drama...
Link - ( New Window )
He did not announce they were taking a qb,  
Keith : 3/8/2018 10:42 am : link
but he made it clear that it should be the focus of the scouts.
RE: RE: allstarjim..  
bw in dc : 3/8/2018 10:43 am : link
In comment 13854721 allstarjim said:
Quote:

Kerryon Johnson getting a lot of carries doesn't make him a great back. He's a good running back. Would you rather have LaDainian Tomlinson or Eddie George?


Johnson is a great college RB. Brilliant. Whether he becomes a great RB in the NFL remains to be seen. But I am a big fan and think he has the tools.

If you are trying to compare KJ to EG I think you've picked the wrong RB from the past. He's much lighter than EG, but he's quicker and faster. In my eye, KJ is more like Tiki Barber, or maybe even a Le'Veon Bell-lite. He's going to be a real threat in the passing game...

But to your question directly - LT... ;)
RE: He did not announce they were taking a qb,  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 10:50 am : link
In comment 13854794 Keith said:
Quote:
but he made it clear that it should be the focus of the scouts.


Thanks for the link.

IMO, what he... or anyone for that matter... says in the middle of last season doesn't mean much for what's going to actually happen in late April. He didn't even know who his GM and new HC were going to be at that point. Things change. I'm not discounting that it's very possible we pick a QB at #2... but IMO it should only be if Barkley's been picked at #1. Guess we'll see!
I like the thought of a combo of  
Beezer : 3/8/2018 10:56 am : link
Barkley and Gallman.
I disagree...a little.  
Keith : 3/8/2018 11:11 am : link
In November when the season was over and we were planning for next season...after the Eli disaster, our ownership believed that Eli was at the end and they were unsure that Webb was the next in line. Why else would Mara make this known, not only to his staff, but to the public? Then, when bringing a new GM on board, you don't think Mara mentioned what he wanted?
So my point is,  
Keith : 3/8/2018 11:12 am : link
I would assume a new GM coming in would have to discuss with Mara during the interview process, how he'd handle what the owner wants. Seems like the owner who was here during last years debacle, wants a QB.
RE: RE: RE: allstarjim..  
allstarjim : 3/8/2018 11:21 am : link
In comment 13854796 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13854721 allstarjim said:


Quote:



Kerryon Johnson getting a lot of carries doesn't make him a great back. He's a good running back. Would you rather have LaDainian Tomlinson or Eddie George?



Johnson is a great college RB. Brilliant. Whether he becomes a great RB in the NFL remains to be seen. But I am a big fan and think he has the tools.

If you are trying to compare KJ to EG I think you've picked the wrong RB from the past. He's much lighter than EG, but he's quicker and faster. In my eye, KJ is more like Tiki Barber, or maybe even a Le'Veon Bell-lite. He's going to be a real threat in the passing game...

But to your question directly - LT... ;)


He runs pretty upright, like George. He is nothing like Tiki, he doesn't have the speed or quickness of Tiki. He's patient like Bell, but I don't think he has the explosion, the lateral agility, and the long speed of those guys. I have yet to see a play of Johnson that made me go, "wow, I want to see that again." Barkley has at least one of these plays in every game.
RE: So my point is,  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 11:26 am : link
In comment 13854839 Keith said:
Quote:
I would assume a new GM coming in would have to discuss with Mara during the interview process, how he'd handle what the owner wants. Seems like the owner who was here during last years debacle, wants a QB.


And yet one of the first statements from the GM he hired was how he believes the Eli that played in the second Eagles game is who Eli really is and believes he has something left in the tank.

T-Bone, understood  
Keith : 3/8/2018 11:29 am : link
and shortly after that there was a report that there would be a ton of misinformation put out there because the new GM didn't like how our plans were leaked the last few years. It's very possible that it's smokescreen.
This was written this offseason....  
Keith : 3/8/2018 11:31 am : link
Be especially careful with most of what you hear out of the Quest Diagnostics Training Center this year. There might be an inordinate amount of misinformation coming from East Rutherford. The organization is extremely cognizant of what unfolded the past few years, with their interest in many of the players they coveted in the draft (Jack Conklin, Leonard Floyd and Garett Bolles to name a few) becoming public knowledge.
I wouldn't be surprised by  
allstarjim : 3/8/2018 11:34 am : link
anything that Gettleman does in the first round, unless he trades up, or stands pat at #2 and takes anyone but a QB or Barkley.

Nothing else would surprise me, and I take everything that is being said right now, or reportedly said, as grains of salt.

We aren't really going to know until Goodell is up on that stage, and says, "With the 2nd overall pick in the 2018 NFL Draft..."
RE: RE: RE: RE: allstarjim..  
bw in dc : 3/8/2018 11:44 am : link
In comment 13854865 allstarjim said:
Quote:

He runs pretty upright, like George. He is nothing like Tiki, he doesn't have the speed or quickness of Tiki. He's patient like Bell, but I don't think he has the explosion, the lateral agility, and the long speed of those guys. I have yet to see a play of Johnson that made me go, "wow, I want to see that again." Barkley has at least one of these plays in every game.


Go watch the Ole Miss game. Or the first Georgia game. If you are open minded, you can't help but see great bounce to the outside, great balance, great quickness through the hole, and the ability to finish. And these aren't ham and eggers on defense. These are rivals with pros through every level...
RE: T-Bone, understood  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 11:46 am : link
In comment 13854897 Keith said:
Quote:
and shortly after that there was a report that there would be a ton of misinformation put out there because the new GM didn't like how our plans were leaked the last few years. It's very possible that it's smokescreen.


Good point.

Itís possible he may be blowing smoke when Gettleman said he doesnít believe in not choosing a particular position high (with regards to taking a RB). Iím also on record as saying I wouldnít be mad if a QB is in fact chosen at #2 (preferably Rosen if itís a QB but wouldnít throw the remote at any of the top ones... I trust Getts that much right now).

All Iím saying is... Iíd pick Barkley.
Understood.  
Keith : 3/8/2018 11:49 am : link
Barkley is a rare case that really makes you think about re-evaluating how you do things. He's a special talent, no doubt. I just don't think the situation is right for the Giants. 5 years ago, when Eli was still in his prime(we probably woulnd't be picking 2nd, but hypothtically) and we had a good supporting cast, I can see it. Not now when we need to rebuild and plan for life after Eli. At least not in my opinion.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: allstarjim..  
allstarjim : 3/8/2018 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13854927 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13854865 allstarjim said:


Quote:



He runs pretty upright, like George. He is nothing like Tiki, he doesn't have the speed or quickness of Tiki. He's patient like Bell, but I don't think he has the explosion, the lateral agility, and the long speed of those guys. I have yet to see a play of Johnson that made me go, "wow, I want to see that again." Barkley has at least one of these plays in every game.



Go watch the Ole Miss game. Or the first Georgia game. If you are open minded, you can't help but see great bounce to the outside, great balance, great quickness through the hole, and the ability to finish. And these aren't ham and eggers on defense. These are rivals with pros through every level...


I will do that but in the games I've watched of his so far I rarely see him win the corner on the edge. Lots of TFLs when he tries to get outside.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: allstarjim..  
bw in dc : 3/8/2018 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13854960 allstarjim said:
Quote:

Go watch the Ole Miss game. Or the first Georgia game. If you are open minded, you can't help but see great bounce to the outside, great balance, great quickness through the hole, and the ability to finish. And these aren't ham and eggers on defense. These are rivals with pros through every level...


I will do that but in the games I've watched of his so far I rarely see him win the corner on the edge. Lots of TFLs when he tries to get outside.


Fair enough. And watch how he stays low through the LOS and doesn't get high until he gets into open space. KJ can really deliver punishment on that first line of contact...you don't do that being upright...
I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 12:08 pm : link
little to no faith in what Webb can do and therefore think that since we have the #2 pick that we MUST take advantage of this opportunity to take a 'franchise' QB... as if the fact that Webb was a 3rd round pick that means he can't develop into a 'franchise' QB... particularly with a HC who at every stop he's made throughout his career he's shown the ability to make chicken salad out of chicken shit with every QB he's had to work with? Even if Webb flat out sucks... Shurmur has proven to be able to get competent... if not above average... play from his QBs.

We already have an 'heir apparent' to Eli... his name is Davis Webb. I say give him a chance.
RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
Keith : 3/8/2018 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13854979 T-Bone said:
Quote:
little to no faith in what Webb can do and therefore think that since we have the #2 pick that we MUST take advantage of this opportunity to take a 'franchise' QB... as if the fact that Webb was a 3rd round pick that means he can't develop into a 'franchise' QB... particularly with a HC who at every stop he's made throughout his career he's shown the ability to make chicken salad out of chicken shit with every QB he's had to work with? Even if Webb flat out sucks... Shurmur has proven to be able to get competent... if not above average... play from his QBs.

We already have an 'heir apparent' to Eli... his name is Davis Webb. I say give him a chance.


There is a reason Webb was a 3rd round pick and couldn't beat out Geno for the starting spot. He's a long shot and has a lot of work to do. Relying on Davis Webb to be that guy is a dangerous proposition. Not saying that it can't happen, but it certainly shouldn't be expected. I'm also not sure why Gallman is being overlooked as the starting back. He actually played last year and looked ok. That was behind a bad OL with a piss poor passing game.

Are you really comfortable calling Webb the heir apparent to Eli? If the Giants were, would Mara have told his scouts to start scouting the QB's as if he knew we were drafting one?
RE: Every player  
santacruzom : 3/8/2018 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13854752 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
has sub par games. If you're going to look at the games where a prospect didn't play that well, nobody would ever get drafted high. I'm sure Andrew Luck had some shitty games at Stanford. Calvin Johnson probably had some games where he disappeared.


The one glaring exception: Barry Sanders. In his final year in college he failed to have one game that wasn't literally spectacular.
RE: RE: Well that's fair,  
santacruzom : 3/8/2018 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13854791 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13854778 Keith said:


Quote:


it's your opinion. I think the Giants were always going to take a QB and everything they have done from last season when Mara announced it until now has reinforced that thought. I'm not sure Barkley's combine changed anything because they already knew how good he is.

I still think the Giants plan on taking a QB.



When did Mara announce they were taking a QB? I honestly had never heard him say that. I haven't been as up on 'Giants news' as I usually am over the past several months so I might've missed it.


If we're determined to pick a QB simply because of something John Mara said mid-season, then this team is still plagued.
RE: RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
bw in dc : 3/8/2018 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13854987 Keith said:


Are you really comfortable calling Webb the heir apparent to Eli? If the Giants were, would Mara have told his scouts to start scouting the QB's as if he knew we were drafting one? [/quote]

Go easy on T-Bone. He is an avid drinker of the Kool-Aid served by Jints Central. His license plates read: TRUSTNMARA
RE: RE: RE: Well that's fair,  
Keith : 3/8/2018 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13855033 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 13854791 T-Bone said:


Quote:


In comment 13854778 Keith said:


Quote:


it's your opinion. I think the Giants were always going to take a QB and everything they have done from last season when Mara announced it until now has reinforced that thought. I'm not sure Barkley's combine changed anything because they already knew how good he is.

I still think the Giants plan on taking a QB.



When did Mara announce they were taking a QB? I honestly had never heard him say that. I haven't been as up on 'Giants news' as I usually am over the past several months so I might've missed it.



If we're determined to pick a QB simply because of something John Mara said mid-season, then this team is still plagued.


Yeah, that's what it is. We are determined to pick a QB because some random schlub made a comment last year. OR, the owner of the team acknowledged the situation we are in and understands that our 37 year old franchise QB is at the end of his career and he knew that there was top level talent in teh draft.
I have the utmost trust in Mara.  
Keith : 3/8/2018 12:34 pm : link
The Giants, despite recent dysfunction, is one of the best run organizations in sports and has one of the best ownership groups in the game. Last year was a blip on the radar and shouldn't take away from how they've done things forever.
RE: I have the utmost trust in Mara.  
bw in dc : 3/8/2018 12:40 pm : link
In comment 13855049 Keith said:
Quote:
The Giants, despite recent dysfunction, is one of the best run organizations in sports and has one of the best ownership groups in the game. Last year was a blip on the radar and shouldn't take away from how they've done things forever.


Alas, I misjudged you... ;)

If by "best run" equals value, then I give you that. What are they? The third most valuable NFL franchise...?

But they aren't well run in terms of winning consistently. That gold era was in the '80s under Parcells and Young, after the NFL saved the Jints from themselves by bringing in Young...
RE: RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 12:40 pm : link
In comment 13854987 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13854979 T-Bone said:


Quote:


little to no faith in what Webb can do and therefore think that since we have the #2 pick that we MUST take advantage of this opportunity to take a 'franchise' QB... as if the fact that Webb was a 3rd round pick that means he can't develop into a 'franchise' QB... particularly with a HC who at every stop he's made throughout his career he's shown the ability to make chicken salad out of chicken shit with every QB he's had to work with? Even if Webb flat out sucks... Shurmur has proven to be able to get competent... if not above average... play from his QBs.

We already have an 'heir apparent' to Eli... his name is Davis Webb. I say give him a chance.



There is a reason Webb was a 3rd round pick and couldn't beat out Geno for the starting spot. He's a long shot and has a lot of work to do. Relying on Davis Webb to be that guy is a dangerous proposition. Not saying that it can't happen, but it certainly shouldn't be expected. I'm also not sure why Gallman is being overlooked as the starting back. He actually played last year and looked ok. That was behind a bad OL with a piss poor passing game.

Are you really comfortable calling Webb the heir apparent to Eli? If the Giants were, would Mara have told his scouts to start scouting the QB's as if he knew we were drafting one?


I don't know the reason(s) why Webb was a third round pick (although I've read several times that he was projected to go higher)... but it's my opinion he wasn't upgraded to the backup spot behind Eli because Webb (in his rookie season) wasn't ready to step in if Eli went down. Yeah he's a long shot... but I see no sure things at QB coming into the draft ( like a Luck for instance) so is he THAT much of a 'longer' shot than any of the QBs coming out?

Am I comfortable calling him the heir apparent? At this point in time, yes I am. I was comfortable with it before we went 3-13... why should that change because we now have the #2 pick? As far as what Mara says... I'd be a little surprised (key word being 'little') if Mara knew enough about Webb's progress and ability to be a starting QB in this league to trust his opinions on personnel moves... or do we not remember the infamous 'I couldn't understand why Jerrell Jernigan wasn't playing earlier?' quote?
RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
Milton : 3/8/2018 12:40 pm : link
In comment 13854979 T-Bone said:
Quote:
little to no faith in what Webb can do and therefore think that since we have the #2 pick that we MUST take advantage of this opportunity to take a 'franchise' QB... as if the fact that Webb was a 3rd round pick that means he can't develop into a 'franchise' QB...
You're misrepresenting what most in the "draft a QB" camp are saying. The point is that you don't pass up the chance to draft a QB worthy of the #2 overall pick just because you already have a guy worthy of a 3rd round pick.
Quote:
particularly with a HC who at every stop he's made throughout his career he's shown the ability to make chicken salad out of chicken shit with every QB he's had to work with?
It's great to be able to make chicken salad out of chicken shit but wouldn't you rather he make a perfectly cooked steak out of fillet mignon? We don't want to be like the team that passed up Dan Marino because we already had Marc Wilson.
Quote:
We already have an 'heir apparent' to Eli... his name is Davis Webb. I say give him a chance.
I agree we should give him a chance, but it should be the chance to compete against Josh Rosen in training camp. A QB room that includes Eli, Webb, and Rosen would be a beautiful thing.
If that's how you judge well run organizations,  
Keith : 3/8/2018 12:41 pm : link
short stints of success, then we have different opinions on what makes an organization well run.
RE: RE: RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13855038 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13854987 Keith said:


Are you really comfortable calling Webb the heir apparent to Eli? If the Giants were, would Mara have told his scouts to start scouting the QB's as if he knew we were drafting one?


Go easy on T-Bone. He is an avid drinker of the Kool-Aid served by Jints Central. His license plates read: TRUSTNMARA [/quote]

This is hilarious to read after the post I just put up (I hadn't seen this post yet).

Still good to have you back beedub ya old fart!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Well that's fair,  
santacruzom : 3/8/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13855047 Keith said:
Quote:

Yeah, that's what it is. We are determined to pick a QB because some random schlub made a comment last year. OR, the owner of the team acknowledged the situation we are in and understands that our 37 year old franchise QB is at the end of his career and he knew that there was top level talent in teh draft.


Why even point out what he said as something that's meaningful, instead of just a platitude that's patently obvious to everyone?
well..  
2cents : 3/8/2018 12:42 pm : link
i can clearly tell that you spent more time writing this post than you have ever spent watching barkley play.

It is one thing to question using a #2 pick on a RB, the arguments against this are well documented and have been discussed endlessly. I think that is a fair point, injuries, longevity, yadda yadda i get it.

but to so selectively come up with these reasons not to draft him or try to say he isnt the best RB ( or player) in the draft is just lazy and click bait. (congrats you got me). In case you have forgot, in football you win by putting more points on board, not how many yards you get.


run through some of the alternatives in this same fashion and let me know what you think.. Josh Allen and his career sub 60% completion rate is far more damming of a prospect than a couple games youve selected in a vacumm that saquon didnt have the yardage.

good point 2cents  
santacruzom : 3/8/2018 12:48 pm : link
if you're going to cite particular games or statistics in some effort to disprove Barkley's worth as a top prospect, you'd better perform that same exercise with the QB's. All of them (aside from maybe Mayfield) would have their stock fall more dramatically than Barkley's as a result.
RE: RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13855062 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13854979 T-Bone said:


Quote:


little to no faith in what Webb can do and therefore think that since we have the #2 pick that we MUST take advantage of this opportunity to take a 'franchise' QB... as if the fact that Webb was a 3rd round pick that means he can't develop into a 'franchise' QB...

You're misrepresenting what most in the "draft a QB" camp are saying. The point is that you don't pass up the chance to draft a QB worthy of the #2 overall pick just because you already have a guy worthy of a 3rd round pick.

Quote:


particularly with a HC who at every stop he's made throughout his career he's shown the ability to make chicken salad out of chicken shit with every QB he's had to work with?

It's great to be able to make chicken salad out of chicken shit but wouldn't you rather he make a perfectly cooked steak out of fillet mignon? We don't want to be like the team that passed up Dan Marino because we already had Marc Wilson.


Quote:


We already have an 'heir apparent' to Eli... his name is Davis Webb. I say give him a chance.

I agree we should give him a chance, but it should be the chance to compete against Josh Rosen in training camp. A QB room that includes Eli, Webb, and Rosen would be a beautiful thing.


Regarding point #1 - why not if you believe that QB drafted in the third has the potential to be just as good as anyone who could be taken at #2? Besides all of that, where a player is 'worthy' to be picked in any given draft is relative to what draft he's in. I've seen a few posts where poster and analyst have said that had Webb been in this draft that he wouldn't be too far off from the top guys in this class. So maybe he wouldn't have been worth of the #2 pick... but (based on what I said) he maybe would've been worthy of a late 1st-early 2nd round pick. Is that difference enough to disregard who most everyone is calling a 'generational' talent at a position where an upgrade is sorely needed?

Regarding point #2 - yes I would... why is it assumed that Webb can't be that filet mignon and only the Darnold, Rosen's and Allen's of this draft are?

Regarding point #3 - I can't argue too much against this one because, as I said, if we don't take Barkley... I want Rosen.
RE: RE: RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
Milton : 3/8/2018 1:18 pm : link
In comment 13855099 T-Bone said:
Quote:

Regarding point #1 - why not if you believe that QB drafted in the third has the potential to be just as good as anyone who could be taken at #2? Besides all of that, where a player is 'worthy' to be picked in any given draft is relative to what draft he's in.
Hard to imagine that last year's draft class was so much better than this year's that a guy who was a late third round pick last year slots in as the #2 overall pick this year.
Quote:
So maybe he wouldn't have been worth of the #2 pick... but (based on what I said) he maybe would've been worthy of a late 1st-early 2nd round pick. Is that difference enough to disregard who most everyone is calling a 'generational' talent at a position where an upgrade is sorely needed?
If the QB and the RB are both worthy of the #2 overall pick, you take the QB. It shouldn't matter that you have a young Marc Wilson waiting in the wings.

Quote:
why is it assumed that Webb can't be that filet mignon and only the Darnold, Rosen's and Allen's of this draft are?
Hey, you're the one who called him chicken salad out of chicken shit, not me. I was just running with the analogy. If you think Shurmur can make fillet mignon out of chicken shit, well, you have an awful lot of faith in him.

I won't be giving up on Davis Webb just because they draft a QB with the #2 overall pick. Let it play out. The Redskins took Kirk Cousins in the 4th round the same year they traded away a ton of picks to take RG3 with the #2 overall pick. That's what a smart GM does when it comes to the QB position (or any position for that matter). You do what your draft board tells you to do and then let the chips fall where they may.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13855139 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13855099 T-Bone said:


Quote:



Regarding point #1 - why not if you believe that QB drafted in the third has the potential to be just as good as anyone who could be taken at #2? Besides all of that, where a player is 'worthy' to be picked in any given draft is relative to what draft he's in.

Hard to imagine that last year's draft class was so much better than this year's that a guy who was a late third round pick last year slots in as the #2 overall pick this year.


Quote:


So maybe he wouldn't have been worth of the #2 pick... but (based on what I said) he maybe would've been worthy of a late 1st-early 2nd round pick. Is that difference enough to disregard who most everyone is calling a 'generational' talent at a position where an upgrade is sorely needed?

If the QB and the RB are both worthy of the #2 overall pick, you take the QB. It shouldn't matter that you have a young Marc Wilson waiting in the wings.



Quote:


why is it assumed that Webb can't be that filet mignon and only the Darnold, Rosen's and Allen's of this draft are?

Hey, you're the one who called him chicken salad out of chicken shit, not me. I was just running with the analogy. If you think Shurmur can make fillet mignon out of chicken shit, well, you have an awful lot of faith in him.

I won't be giving up on Davis Webb just because they draft a QB with the #2 overall pick. Let it play out. The Redskins took Kirk Cousins in the 4th round the same year they traded away a ton of picks to take RG3 with the #2 overall pick. That's what a smart GM does when it comes to the QB position (or any position for that matter). You do what your draft board tells you to do and then let the chips fall where they may.


Point 1 - perhaps... but like I said, I've seen on a few occasions it said that Webb would've been in the mix with... and perhaps graded higher than... a few of the 'top' QB's in this draft who are slated to go in the mid to late 1st/early 2nd round (I believe Jackson and Randolph were two names as were mentioned that it's believed Webb would've been graded higher than... I wish I could find any of those articles/posts but I can't and don't have the time to really look). He might not have been in Darnold or Rosen's class... but I believe he was up there in the mix with Allen and Mayfield.

Point 2 - I can agree with that... but what if the RB is the better, more 'sure thing' prospect than the QB? Do you pass up the 'sure thing' for a prospect that has some warts on it? Particularly when you not only have an older franchise QB already in the fold but also a QB who you spent a 3rd round pick on just last year? What if the QB you pick at #2 doesn't pan out? So now not only have you spent the #2 pick on a guy whose warts couldn't be overcome... but you've also effectively wasted your third round pick too (one of these guys are going to get more attention than the other and my money would be on the higher picked player as I'm sure you'd agree) because Webb's development would be stunted... AND you passed on the generational, more of a 'sure thing' QB who's tearing up the league now for the Colts or Browns. Yeah... THAT'S going to go over well.

Point 3 - 1) I wasn't referring to Webb as 'chicken shit' in my analogy as for all I (and all of us) know, he very well may be the filet mignon. And based on Shurmur past (particularly of the recent variety)... Keenam suuuure looked like a piece of filet mignon to me! So yeah... call me crazy but I do have a lot of faith in Shurmer. A lot more now than I did when he was first hired as a matter of fact.

You won't be 'giving up' on Davis Webb but you sure will be stunting his growth since he'll most likely be the third/scout team QB... only getting scraps for reps. This is after an HC, OC and offensive system change at that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: allstarjim..  
allstarjim : 3/8/2018 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13854971 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13854960 allstarjim said:


Quote:



Go watch the Ole Miss game. Or the first Georgia game. If you are open minded, you can't help but see great bounce to the outside, great balance, great quickness through the hole, and the ability to finish. And these aren't ham and eggers on defense. These are rivals with pros through every level...


I will do that but in the games I've watched of his so far I rarely see him win the corner on the edge. Lots of TFLs when he tries to get outside.



Fair enough. And watch how he stays low through the LOS and doesn't get high until he gets into open space. KJ can really deliver punishment on that first line of contact...you don't do that being upright...


He lowers his shoulder before contact, sometimes he lowers his pad level through the los, but he's inconsistent with it. He takes a lot of contact, doesn't have the homerun speed. You cited his game against Ole Miss and say they have all these NFL players on their team. Ole Miss' run defense was 123rd out of 129 FBS teams. So...pretty terrible. They have two guys on that defense that have entered the draft, both on the front 4. One of them a 225 lb DE (read: pass rush utility only). The other is a 285 lb DT. Both are middle round prospects. What I'm trying to say is Ole Miss was really, really bad last year, particularly defensively, and horrifically bad at run defense.

It's not a criticism of Kerryon that Auburn took advantage of a bad defense, but let's not make the claim that he beat this great run defense, either. A guy named Tra Minter on South Alabama ran for 83 yards on 12 carries against them (6.9 ypc...Kerryon 7.3 ypc). When I see Kerryon break off the big runs, the OL has made big creases for him. I don't see him create. I'm still waiting to see him win the corner with speed. I see some runs outside that are blocked extremely well. But I don't see him beat an unblocked defender to the spot.

Georgia is a different story. He had great numbers against a very good defense overall and a good rushing defense. I did get to see most of his game against them, because Draft Breakdown has Braden Smith's reps vs Georgia for that game. I think that is the best I've seen of him, I saw him make some good cuts and get some good runs. However, you don't get the homeruns with him very often. I still waiting to see him win the corner with speed. He did really put a move on a Georgia DE. He rarely doesn't get what his blockers get for him, and they get him a lot. I came away from that game a lot more impressed with Braden Smith than Kerryon. I'm not negative on Kerryon...I think he has good vision (there were two plays where I thought he ignored a hole inside and bounced outside. But normally, he has good vision and patience, he gets north and south quickly, takes what's there, has good forward lean when he goes down, and finishes the play. What I don't see is a lot of him creating his own yards. They are there...just not very many plays like that. This is in contrast to Saquon Barkley, who creates almost everything he gets due to the types of boxes he has to run against and the direct focus on him.

For a guy that weighed in at the combine around 213 lbs, he plays very physical. He looks to deliver blows. That's not necessarily a good thing. Small guys looking for contact tend not to last very long in the NFL. I want a guy that won't take the big collisions very often. The punishment was starting to take its toll on him late in the season with rib and shoulder injuries. This would be a concern at the next level with the longer season and also with bigger, stronger, faster defensive players bringing more force to the collision. If he doesn't change his style, he may wear down quickly. If he does change his style, he may not be effective at all.

I think McShay is right, Kerryon is a complementary back at the next level: http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/index.ssf/2018/03/todd_mcshay_on_kerryon_johnson.html

Good short yardage back. Sy recently said he'll have a first round grade on him. I've seen about 4 games of his now and I don't get that at all. I'll see what Sy says about him with his final verdict, but I think he's a late 4th rounder at best, and don't think he'll be an effective lead/franchise running back in the NFL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
allstarjim : 3/8/2018 3:10 pm : link
In comment 13855189 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13855139 Milton said:


Quote:


In comment 13855099 T-Bone said:


Quote:



Regarding point #1 - why not if you believe that QB drafted in the third has the potential to be just as good as anyone who could be taken at #2? Besides all of that, where a player is 'worthy' to be picked in any given draft is relative to what draft he's in.

Hard to imagine that last year's draft class was so much better than this year's that a guy who was a late third round pick last year slots in as the #2 overall pick this year.


Quote:


So maybe he wouldn't have been worth of the #2 pick... but (based on what I said) he maybe would've been worthy of a late 1st-early 2nd round pick. Is that difference enough to disregard who most everyone is calling a 'generational' talent at a position where an upgrade is sorely needed?

If the QB and the RB are both worthy of the #2 overall pick, you take the QB. It shouldn't matter that you have a young Marc Wilson waiting in the wings.



Quote:


why is it assumed that Webb can't be that filet mignon and only the Darnold, Rosen's and Allen's of this draft are?

Hey, you're the one who called him chicken salad out of chicken shit, not me. I was just running with the analogy. If you think Shurmur can make fillet mignon out of chicken shit, well, you have an awful lot of faith in him.

I won't be giving up on Davis Webb just because they draft a QB with the #2 overall pick. Let it play out. The Redskins took Kirk Cousins in the 4th round the same year they traded away a ton of picks to take RG3 with the #2 overall pick. That's what a smart GM does when it comes to the QB position (or any position for that matter). You do what your draft board tells you to do and then let the chips fall where they may.



Point 1 - perhaps... but like I said, I've seen on a few occasions it said that Webb would've been in the mix with... and perhaps graded higher than... a few of the 'top' QB's in this draft who are slated to go in the mid to late 1st/early 2nd round (I believe Jackson and Randolph were two names as were mentioned that it's believed Webb would've been graded higher than... I wish I could find any of those articles/posts but I can't and don't have the time to really look). He might not have been in Darnold or Rosen's class... but I believe he was up there in the mix with Allen and Mayfield.

Point 2 - I can agree with that... but what if the RB is the better, more 'sure thing' prospect than the QB? Do you pass up the 'sure thing' for a prospect that has some warts on it? Particularly when you not only have an older franchise QB already in the fold but also a QB who you spent a 3rd round pick on just last year? What if the QB you pick at #2 doesn't pan out? So now not only have you spent the #2 pick on a guy whose warts couldn't be overcome... but you've also effectively wasted your third round pick too (one of these guys are going to get more attention than the other and my money would be on the higher picked player as I'm sure you'd agree) because Webb's development would be stunted... AND you passed on the generational, more of a 'sure thing' QB who's tearing up the league now for the Colts or Browns. Yeah... THAT'S going to go over well.

Point 3 - 1) I wasn't referring to Webb as 'chicken shit' in my analogy as for all I (and all of us) know, he very well may be the filet mignon. And based on Shurmur past (particularly of the recent variety)... Keenam suuuure looked like a piece of filet mignon to me! So yeah... call me crazy but I do have a lot of faith in Shurmer. A lot more now than I did when he was first hired as a matter of fact.

You won't be 'giving up' on Davis Webb but you sure will be stunting his growth since he'll most likely be the third/scout team QB... only getting scraps for reps. This is after an HC, OC and offensive system change at that.


T-bone, Keenum is awful. He doesn't have a strong arm, when he has to make long throws, he floats them out there, they just hang in the air. He doesn't have fastball he needs. I knew he was going to struggle in the playoffs. Shurmur did indeed maximize his ability.

But allow me to proffer why you would take a QB in the Giants' situation, even with Webb present: A great QB wins Super Bowls. The Patriots go deep into the playoffs every single year because of Tom Brady. Yes Belichick too, but he's not on the field. It's Brady. The Steelers are always in the playoffs because of Roethlisberger. The Packers are usually in the playoffs because of Aaron Rodgers. The Eagles went from a laughingstock to a Super Bowl contender in one year because of Carson Wentz. I know these are oversimplifications but the point is that the NFL is a QB-driven league. If you have a great one, you will have a very good team for a long time. If you don't, then everything else needs to fall right...health, good defense, gotta run the ball, etc, etc.

We don't know about Webb. We do know is that no team was convinced enough on him that he could be a top-tier franchise QB, otherwise he would've been a first round pick. So I'm going to assume that every NFL team thought he was a bit of a project at best.

That doesn't mean he can't be great. But in this situation, and if you want to play in and win Super Bowls, you may need to hedge your bet and get a guy you have more confidence in that could become an elite NFL QB.

And I'm a Barkley guy, I am, I think the guy is a superstar. I have no problem with the Giants going in that direction. To me it means they may know more about Webb and may like him. I trust the decision makers to get it right. There will be other QBs that come into the league after this draft, and we are counting on Eli again this year, so I don't mind them waiting. But if they pass up on the QB this year and one of them becomes an all-time great QB, then that will be a mistake, even considering how good Barkley is.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: allstarjim..  
bw in dc : 3/8/2018 3:49 pm : link
In comment 13855330 allstarjim said:
Quote:

He lowers his shoulder before contact, sometimes he lowers his pad level through the los, but he's inconsistent with it. He takes a lot of contact, doesn't have the homerun speed. You cited his game against Ole Miss and say they have all these NFL players on their team. Ole Miss' run defense was 123rd out of 129 FBS teams. So...pretty terrible. They have two guys on that defense that have entered the draft, both on the front 4. One of them a 225 lb DE (read: pass rush utility only). The other is a 285 lb DT. Both are middle round prospects. What I'm trying to say is Ole Miss was really, really bad last year, particularly defensively, and horrifically bad at run defense.

It's not a criticism of Kerryon that Auburn took advantage of a bad defense, but let's not make the claim that he beat this great run defense, either. A guy named Tra Minter on South Alabama ran for 83 yards on 12 carries against them (6.9 ypc...Kerryon 7.3 ypc). When I see Kerryon break off the big runs, the OL has made big creases for him. I don't see him create. I'm still waiting to see him win the corner with speed. I see some runs outside that are blocked extremely well. But I don't see him beat an unblocked defender to the spot.

Georgia is a different story. He had great numbers against a very good defense overall and a good rushing defense. I did get to see most of his game against them, because Draft Breakdown has Braden Smith's reps vs Georgia for that game. I think that is the best I've seen of him, I saw him make some good cuts and get some good runs. However, you don't get the homeruns with him very often. I still waiting to see him win the corner with speed. He did really put a move on a Georgia DE. He rarely doesn't get what his blockers get for him, and they get him a lot. I came away from that game a lot more impressed with Braden Smith than Kerryon. I'm not negative on Kerryon...I think he has good vision (there were two plays where I thought he ignored a hole inside and bounced outside. But normally, he has good vision and patience, he gets north and south quickly, takes what's there, has good forward lean when he goes down, and finishes the play. What I don't see is a lot of him creating his own yards. They are there...just not very many plays like that. This is in contrast to Saquon Barkley, who creates almost everything he gets due to the types of boxes he has to run against and the direct focus on him.

For a guy that weighed in at the combine around 213 lbs, he plays very physical. He looks to deliver blows. That's not necessarily a good thing. Small guys looking for contact tend not to last very long in the NFL. I want a guy that won't take the big collisions very often. The punishment was starting to take its toll on him late in the season with rib and shoulder injuries. This would be a concern at the next level with the longer season and also with bigger, stronger, faster defensive players bringing more force to the collision. If he doesn't change his style, he may wear down quickly. If he does change his style, he may not be effective at all.

I think McShay is right, Kerryon is a complementary back at the next level: http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/index.ssf/2018/03/todd_mcshay_on_kerryon_johnson.html

Good short yardage back. Sy recently said he'll have a first round grade on him. I've seen about 4 games of his now and I don't get that at all. I'll see what Sy says about him with his final verdict, but I think he's a late 4th rounder at best, and don't think he'll be an effective lead/franchise running back in the NFL.


Nice write-up. Very detailed, I appreciate the effort. Thanks.

Ole Miss is young. They had the 4th ranked recruiting class in 2016 and top 20 in 2017, they have talent. It's just taking time to form; and it will have pro caliber talent. Plus, they had the chaos this year with Freeze's off-field nonsense. And Georgia, and it sounds like you know, is littered with NFL talent on defense.

Those are the two games I remembered mostly from start to finish. So whether it was a young Ole Miss D or a more seasoned Georgia D, the results were the same - high level production where you can see KJ showing a bit of everything against quality personnel. This wasn't Georgia State or Akron talent... ;)

And he ran very hard and well against Bama. My guess is you caught some of that? That is a rugged D and KJ went 30 for 100+. Not many do that to a Saban D. I'm not sure when or how he hurt his shoulder that day...

What do you mean by homerun? KJ had a 50 yard run in the Ole Miss game. And a 60 yarder versus Miss St. Those our SEC defenses. And he had 60 yarder versus Ga Southern....equivalent to the 80 yarder SB had against Akron...

Now, I don't think he's as speedy as SB, but KJ is not Mike Devlin either. I think you underestimate, a bit, his ability to make big plays.

I don't know about the create-your-own-yards angle. If the PSU oline isn't creating holes and seams, then the onus in on SB to bounce outside for yards. If the Auburn oline is creating seams, or KJ is the type of back who is patient and waits for the openings, then you can't ding him for not giving up on the play. Thus, the similar patient style of Bell.

I'm getting the impression you can see what I mean that KJ isn't always upright. When he hits that LOS, his pads are down and he's always moving his feet. The upright style, which I don't think is as pronounced as, say, an Eric Dickerson, is really when he gets to the second level...Is that fair?

In the end, a lot will depend - as usual - where these players go and how they are used. I'm just a fan of KJ's blended style - physical and finesse - and think there is more upside than most here...

Again, thanks for your comments. A good read...
Barkley #2 - NO  
Giantslifer : 3/8/2018 4:10 pm : link
Smart teams do not take RB's early in 1st round unless they have both sides of interior line established.
The Giants do not.
Draft all the interior lineman they can get and see what is available at RB later.
How many does a RB come out of round 3 or later and light up NFL for 3-5 years?
Thats all you want /need out of RB.
NO to Barkley.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I guess I just don't see why some seem to have  
T-Bone : 3/8/2018 4:52 pm : link
In comment 13855346 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13855189 T-Bone said:


Quote:


In comment 13855139 Milton said:


Quote:


In comment 13855099 T-Bone said:


Quote:



Regarding point #1 - why not if you believe that QB drafted in the third has the potential to be just as good as anyone who could be taken at #2? Besides all of that, where a player is 'worthy' to be picked in any given draft is relative to what draft he's in.

Hard to imagine that last year's draft class was so much better than this year's that a guy who was a late third round pick last year slots in as the #2 overall pick this year.


Quote:


So maybe he wouldn't have been worth of the #2 pick... but (based on what I said) he maybe would've been worthy of a late 1st-early 2nd round pick. Is that difference enough to disregard who most everyone is calling a 'generational' talent at a position where an upgrade is sorely needed?

If the QB and the RB are both worthy of the #2 overall pick, you take the QB. It shouldn't matter that you have a young Marc Wilson waiting in the wings.



Quote:


why is it assumed that Webb can't be that filet mignon and only the Darnold, Rosen's and Allen's of this draft are?

Hey, you're the one who called him chicken salad out of chicken shit, not me. I was just running with the analogy. If you think Shurmur can make fillet mignon out of chicken shit, well, you have an awful lot of faith in him.

I won't be giving up on Davis Webb just because they draft a QB with the #2 overall pick. Let it play out. The Redskins took Kirk Cousins in the 4th round the same year they traded away a ton of picks to take RG3 with the #2 overall pick. That's what a smart GM does when it comes to the QB position (or any position for that matter). You do what your draft board tells you to do and then let the chips fall where they may.



Point 1 - perhaps... but like I said, I've seen on a few occasions it said that Webb would've been in the mix with... and perhaps graded higher than... a few of the 'top' QB's in this draft who are slated to go in the mid to late 1st/early 2nd round (I believe Jackson and Randolph were two names as were mentioned that it's believed Webb would've been graded higher than... I wish I could find any of those articles/posts but I can't and don't have the time to really look). He might not have been in Darnold or Rosen's class... but I believe he was up there in the mix with Allen and Mayfield.

Point 2 - I can agree with that... but what if the RB is the better, more 'sure thing' prospect than the QB? Do you pass up the 'sure thing' for a prospect that has some warts on it? Particularly when you not only have an older franchise QB already in the fold but also a QB who you spent a 3rd round pick on just last year? What if the QB you pick at #2 doesn't pan out? So now not only have you spent the #2 pick on a guy whose warts couldn't be overcome... but you've also effectively wasted your third round pick too (one of these guys are going to get more attention than the other and my money would be on the higher picked player as I'm sure you'd agree) because Webb's development would be stunted... AND you passed on the generational, more of a 'sure thing' QB who's tearing up the league now for the Colts or Browns. Yeah... THAT'S going to go over well.

Point 3 - 1) I wasn't referring to Webb as 'chicken shit' in my analogy as for all I (and all of us) know, he very well may be the filet mignon. And based on Shurmur past (particularly of the recent variety)... Keenam suuuure looked like a piece of filet mignon to me! So yeah... call me crazy but I do have a lot of faith in Shurmer. A lot more now than I did when he was first hired as a matter of fact.

You won't be 'giving up' on Davis Webb but you sure will be stunting his growth since he'll most likely be the third/scout team QB... only getting scraps for reps. This is after an HC, OC and offensive system change at that.



T-bone, Keenum is awful. He doesn't have a strong arm, when he has to make long throws, he floats them out there, they just hang in the air. He doesn't have fastball he needs. I knew he was going to struggle in the playoffs. Shurmur did indeed maximize his ability.

But allow me to proffer why you would take a QB in the Giants' situation, even with Webb present: A great QB wins Super Bowls. The Patriots go deep into the playoffs every single year because of Tom Brady. Yes Belichick too, but he's not on the field. It's Brady. The Steelers are always in the playoffs because of Roethlisberger. The Packers are usually in the playoffs because of Aaron Rodgers. The Eagles went from a laughingstock to a Super Bowl contender in one year because of Carson Wentz. I know these are oversimplifications but the point is that the NFL is a QB-driven league. If you have a great one, you will have a very good team for a long time. If you don't, then everything else needs to fall right...health, good defense, gotta run the ball, etc, etc.

We don't know about Webb. We do know is that no team was convinced enough on him that he could be a top-tier franchise QB, otherwise he would've been a first round pick. So I'm going to assume that every NFL team thought he was a bit of a project at best.

That doesn't mean he can't be great. But in this situation, and if you want to play in and win Super Bowls, you may need to hedge your bet and get a guy you have more confidence in that could become an elite NFL QB.

And I'm a Barkley guy, I am, I think the guy is a superstar. I have no problem with the Giants going in that direction. To me it means they may know more about Webb and may like him. I trust the decision makers to get it right. There will be other QBs that come into the league after this draft, and we are counting on Eli again this year, so I don't mind them waiting. But if they pass up on the QB this year and one of them becomes an all-time great QB, then that will be a mistake, even considering how good Barkley is.


allstar - I hear what you're saying and truth be told, don't have an argument against anything you said. I guess we'll see what happens. All I know is that if I was the GM... and I felt that Webb will be a good one... I'm taking Barkley. I'd have NO problem if they went QB... but I'd take the 'generational' talent.
people who are worried about drafting Barkley  
Jersey55 : 3/8/2018 5:19 pm : link
with our first pick in the draft need to remember we did it with David Wilson.
RE: Barkley>any qb  
Jersey55 : 3/10/2018 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13854591 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
Since Eli will be here two more years, we need to help Eli, not draft a guy holding a clipboard.
I think its the other way around, Eli needs to help us.
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