Not questioning his combine or his abilities or even taking him at #2.
Here's what worries me:
1. He had sub-par rushing games this past year against the likes of rutgers ( 35 yrds !), maryland, indiana, northwestern and georgia STATE...finishing 4th in the big 10 in that category. Injuries, offensive line...maybe those were the issues. But that 's just the kinds of problems the giants tend to have too.
2. He can return kicks but he's too valuable in that role so it why take someone based on that skill that you won't even use as frequently as he did it college?
3. This draft has a lot of RB's that can still help us. Help, not save.
4. We are already getting those dreams of obj, engram and barkley running free through the 2ndary as some sort of three headed blue monster, but we've seen this movie before, as in like every single year we ignore the line... and we know how it ends.
5. Can he run up the gut? I see lots of speed runs and great looking catches, but we need someone who can get it done through the middle.
6. Actually this is #1--the hype train is in full gear for him. He deserves the accolades based on his recent performance and he sounds like a great kid but when everyone is saying the same thing over and over, these days, i get concerned about group think/echo-chambering, whatever you want to term it.
If we have a really good plan to improve the OL this offseason and that plans actually works out, then taking him with our first could be the kind of move that puts us back in the playoffs. But if we whiff again, and we see barkley getting stuffed over and over and then eventually limping off with some issue, then it will be a blue christmas yet again.
For me, the trade today for Tree shows there is a new front office on the job. I think we have a legit shot at a trade down, getting OL help and all kinds of other shots in the arm, including a good RB...just not named barkley.
His short yardage, between the tackle is not great.....as he tries to bounce out of a non-opening instead of powering through it....much like Sanders. Now, he can pop anything for a large gain.
His quickness and acceleration is amazing as well as his receiving skills....
Now, defenses must put 8 in the box...as he is deadly in the open which I think works perfectly for Shummer's play action offense
He is not Emmit Smith....who can get 3 yards when you need 2.
But he is explosive....I saw 5 long bombs for TDs, amazed that he snuck through the line and ran up the sideline as fast as he did!?!?!
Any screen can go for a TD.
Any swing pass and small hole can be broken.
But also, if you need 2 yards..he might get caught for a yard
Loss....to kill a drive
He is not Emmit Smith....who can get 3 yards when you need 2.
But he is explosive....I saw 5 long bombs for TDs, amazed that he snuck through the line and ran up the sideline as fast as he did!?!?!
Any screen can go for a TD.
Any swing pass and small hole can be broken.
But also, if you need 2 yards..he might get caught for a yard
Loss....to kill a drive
George, after reading your post, the reward seems to far outweigh the risk.
Yes, the OL will not be great....hopefully it will be better than last season, which should not be hard to accomplish....
But Barkley brings an element to the Giants, they have not had since Tiki.....and defenses will have to account for him....yes with this OL, he may get stuffed for a few series....and then bang.....he's gone.....and once this happens, then the defense has to crowd the line and it opens up the downfield passing game....
Barkley will make an OL look better than it actually is.....and when you have a RB, that has this ability, it can actually raise the level of play of your linemen.....
So if we are playing for now, we take Barkley......if we are picking for the future, it will be a QB.....
Not only Penn St but he played HS by me in Whitehall PA.
And to be honest, I still do not understand how he does not excel in short yardage as his dead lift and leg strength is amazing....
So are you praying the Browns take a QB and Berkley is there for us like LT was or are you praying they take him and we go with someone else at 2?
Even with a bad line two pedestrian backs had pretty decent yards per carry. What would Barkley do?
When has that formula delivered Super Bowls?
Sounds like a great way to put up huge numbers in November against a 1 win opponents?
You cant win the SB without facing top flight defenses that can shut down the run. There are alot of ringless HoF RBs with some god awful playoff performances.
If we can get Ronald Jones AND significantly improve our OL, watch out.
If we can get Kerryon Johnson AND significantly improve our OL, watch out.
If we can get Sony Michel AND significantly improve our OL, watch out.
If the Giants do a decent job in free agency and do a decent job in the draft regardless of the names attached AND have a healthy year instead of having key injuries up and down the roster watch out.
The #2 overall pick is not going to be the difference between a good year and a bad year, injuries are. For the most part, that's been the case for the Giants ever since Eli arrived.
I’m not sure if his tendency to not run up the gut that shows up on tape was due to the OL not creating creases for him. I think that tendency can be coached as well.
He’s a threat to take it to the house on every run. I’d gladly take two long TDs in a game in which he averages 3 yards a carry otherwise.
I hate the idea of drafting a RB in the first round, let alone be the 2nd pick overall. But if we stupidly do, the prospect should be a La’Veon Bell type - a real workhorse and grinder...
This guy forces the defense up to the line. Pick your poison.
He is also a gifted pass catcher, so he is matchup nightmare.
Hopefully, Cleveland doesn't take him. Suspect they might. Doubt he gets out of the top two.
At #2 you are trying to get a weapon for which the defense has to game plan. You want a matchup nightmare to open up the other playmakers on the field. You want a guy who can change the game with big plays. That is Barkley.
If the line isn't fixed, 3rd and short and 4th and short will continue to be a problem no matter who is in the backfield. It's a silly reason to pass up on a game changer.
Correct. And it shouldn’t be Barkley; and indeed it should be a RB in the later rounds...
I hate the idea of drafting a RB in the first round, let alone be the 2nd pick overall. But if we stupidly do, the prospect should be a La’Veon Bell type - a real workhorse and grinder...
Three times he had at least 20 carries; he had 40 touches (from scrimmage) against Iowa.
This isn't a big deal. Some games he was simply benched after Penn State got up big. This shit is so old. People look at stats as if they exist in a bubble. You have to look for context in the stats, you can't automatically assume narratives because of stats. There are reasons for certain things you see in the stats that have nothing to do with supposed ineffectiveness.
OP mentioned the Maryland game...he destroyed Maryland...He played 2 and half quarters in that game because they were up by over 40 points mid-way through the 3rd quarter. These are the things you are ignoring.
He also had many more high carry volume games in 2016, proving he can be a high-volume back. The loss of Chris Godwin to the NFL after 2016 hurt the Penn State offense. Teams loaded up on Saquon because PSU didn't really have guys like Godwin who could consistently hurt you and that were a physical mismatch one on one. So he saw a lot of stacked boxes this year, where it was clear the entire defensive gameplan was to shut him down, and he still exceeded his yards from scrimmage total last year because he simply did a lot more damage as a receiver this year than he did last year.
Short answer is stop with the nonsense and hand-wringing. Bringing up games like Maryland and Indiana as if they were bad games reveals you don't actually have a clue. Indiana the guy has over 100 yards from scrimmage, throws for a TD, and returns a 98 yard kick return for a TD. I mean, that's a spectacular game that is revealing he is an all-around weapon that plays the RB position. Oh no, he only had 47 yards rushing against Georgia State...AND 142 receiving yards! In a game he BARELY played in. I mean, they won that Georgia State game 56-0. He played about 1 half of football. You really think GEORGIA STATE stopped him? No. I mean damn. He's a football player, and a damn great one.
Quote:
I’d gladly take two long TDs in a game in which he averages 3 yards a carry otherwise.
Not if the team loses 21-14 and Barkley's indecision is the cause of countless three and outs that never allow the offense to develop a rhythm or sustain drives.
If the QB doesn’t throw any TD passes that’s a bigger problem.
The question is how does that player translate to the NFL and how will the Giants utilize that player IF he is drafted.
I would think that Barkley would be utilized far better by Pat Shurmur and having additional threats on offense like OBJ, Shep and Engram will limit defenses stacking to just stop him, which I am sure happened a lot at Penn State.
But there is something to be said for being conditioned to handle a high number of carries - like Kerryon Johnson or Rashaad Perry - against quality competition. Not saying Barkley can’t, but it’s not clear cut. And catching the ball in space is not the same as getting a true carry where the dlinemen come into play more and there is less space...
Josh Rosen completed less than 60% of his passes and threw 3 picks and no TDs in a losing effort against an Arizona defense that can generously be called terrible. If you want to knock Barkley for what he did against Rutgers, I assume you would also say the Giants should stay away from Rosen for a similar performance against a similar team?
But there is something to be said for being conditioned to handle a high number of carries - like Kerryon Johnson or Rashaad Perry - against quality competition. Not saying Barkley can’t, but it’s not clear cut. And catching the ball in space is not the same as getting a true carry where the dlinemen come into play more and there is less space...
2016 he had 7 games with 20 or more carries. He had less carries this year because teams were trying to take him away, so PSU is naturally going to try and take what the defense gives them. He can handle a big workload, he's done it in the past, he has a thick lower half (and upper half), and he has been very durable.
Kerryon Johnson getting a lot of carries doesn't make him a great back. He's a good running back. Would you rather have LaDainian Tomlinson or Eddie George?
IMO, every single negative attributed to Barkley is being nitpicky. He's the total package and using things such as 'he's not a great short yardage back' (the man's 230+ pounds and can dead lift a truck... so it's not matter of him not having the talent of ability to do it, maybe his line played a part in some of those runs where he didn't get the first down?) and 'he hasn't shown he can carry a large load' (which has already been debunked above) appears to be some folks parroting things they've heard elsewhere.
I 'get' the argument about picking a RB at #2... especially with this being such a deep draft when it comes to that position. BUT... Barkley's not just the best RB in the draft... he's the best PLAYER. If the draft is supposedly about acquiring the best talent... why wouldn't you draft the most talented player in the draft... especially when the only other player who comes even close to him in talent is a Guard?
I love posts like this. Are you privy to information that even the most clued in people aren't privy to?
I still think the Giants plan on taking a QB.
I still think the Giants plan on taking a QB.
When did Mara announce they were taking a QB? I honestly had never heard him say that. I haven't been as up on 'Giants news' as I usually am over the past several months so I might've missed it.
Link - ( New Window )
Kerryon Johnson getting a lot of carries doesn't make him a great back. He's a good running back. Would you rather have LaDainian Tomlinson or Eddie George?
Johnson is a great college RB. Brilliant. Whether he becomes a great RB in the NFL remains to be seen. But I am a big fan and think he has the tools.
If you are trying to compare KJ to EG I think you've picked the wrong RB from the past. He's much lighter than EG, but he's quicker and faster. In my eye, KJ is more like Tiki Barber, or maybe even a Le'Veon Bell-lite. He's going to be a real threat in the passing game...
But to your question directly - LT... ;)
Thanks for the link.
IMO, what he... or anyone for that matter... says in the middle of last season doesn't mean much for what's going to actually happen in late April. He didn't even know who his GM and new HC were going to be at that point. Things change. I'm not discounting that it's very possible we pick a QB at #2... but IMO it should only be if Barkley's been picked at #1. Guess we'll see!