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BBI Draft Chat with Great Blue North Draft Report

Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/8/2018 12:49 pm
Colin Lindsay and Pigskin Paul Guillemette of the GBNDR would like BBIers to start posting their questions now.

For those unfamiliar with the Great Blue North Draft Report, check out the link to their site below. Both Colin and Paul grew up Giants fans so they bring that to the table as well.


Great Blue North Draft Report - ( New Window )
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Mason Rudolph  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 2:11 pm : link
No doubt in my mind he's Round 2, but I just don't like his lac of mobility in today's NFL. When ELI and Brady are gone the pocket-bound area of QB may be just about over.
So back to my original question  
David B. : 3/8/2018 2:12 pm : link
Quote:
are his accuracy and anticipation issues coachable.


If you agree these exist, WHY is Allen ahead of Darnold on your board? (I totally get that Rosen is 1 and I agree)
Nelson  
Colin@gbn : 3/8/2018 2:16 pm : link
Andy re Nelson: No doubt he's a really good prospect, but I wish he had run at the combine. My suspicion is he's more a 5.35 type guy and if so is probably stuck at OG. The other thing is he is primarily a superior drive blocker who is only an 'adequate' pass blocker. He's just not that athletic and I just don't see him as an option at #2. I also don't think that Nelson brings to the table in getting you closer to being a championship contender is much more than marginally different than that of the guys you are likely to see in the 2nd round.
Hill, Carter &Harrison  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 2:16 pm : link
HILLis the bets of these 3. He's a nice big body who can move. Will stop the run and pressure the pocket inside. 3rd Round. HARRISON is a great athlete, but really raw as OT. I'd draft him but not until Round 5, which will likely be too late. He can't help you for at best a couple seasons. I thin Carter is too slight and with only average speed & quickness. I might sign him as URFA.
RUDOLPH  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 2:19 pm : link
He's a smart kid, with a good arm, but again really limited mobility. He's coachable I think, but because he can't escape pocket he's likely to get sacked a lot or try to extend plays and throw too many INT. Sounds just like ELI on a bad day doesn't it.
BENKERT  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 2:24 pm : link
I am sorry to say I just don't thin BENKERT has the arm or athleticism to do much in the NFL. And that hurts me to say cause he's had a fairly tough life and has persevered. He really looked solid most of the 2017 season. He has limited back-up potential for NFL. When he's good he's O, but when he's overmatched he's a mistake machine.
Changes in the draft process  
Colin@gbn : 3/8/2018 2:26 pm : link
Good question Uber about how the draft process will play out under the new regime. I think the measurables stuff with Reese is overstated. The Giants grades were always based primarily on the grades from the scouts who were grading primarily productivity. The changes I have heard about seem to be mostly related to a) the way the Giants set up their board and b) ultimately how they organize their scouts regionally and nationally. They may also weight things slightly differently but the whole draft process is something that has evolved for decades across the league and its hard to see how much there is to actually change.

Where we might see some change is that suspect DG will be more proactive in deciding on picks. Reese actually never made the picks; under him the Giants process was very collegial with decisons made by consensus in the room, whereas listening to DG I get the sense thathe may be prepared to make the ultimate decision personnaly.

And while everyone in the room will cheer, the fact is that if one actually compares the Panthers drafts 2013-2017 with the Giants drafts in the same period there isn't really much difference in outcomes. The draft issues the Giants had under Reese really occurred largely 2010-2012. But time will tell
Ownership  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 2:28 pm : link
At the risk of raising a lot if fan ire at a Giants website, so to speak, I'd like to comment on an earlier comment from someone on how the Giants ownership doesn't meddle much. I think that is not totally true anymore. I thin the team has somewhat become a Mara family nepotism organization. Nepotism brings with it potential incest, and that is never a good thing. Stealing really good talent from other organizations is not a taboo, incest is.
Who are your favorite WRs in this draft?  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/8/2018 2:32 pm : link
Seems like it's not a strong draft for them, and all the ones available have their limits.
Great insights guysó  
UberAlias : 3/8/2018 2:33 pm : link
Really glad you did this!
Draft projection  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 2:34 pm : link
Late me make the general observation that this upcoming Draft is very deep with NFL caliber players, but once we get past the top 12-15 the sure things get scarce. Expect a run for 5-6 QB in Round 1 which is one or two too many. I found Gettleman to be kind of a blah pick to run the organization, but it did not surprise me. We're back to the fact that John Mara doesn't think outside the box IMO. Mr. Tisch doesn't know a whole lot about football, and is content if his check shows up and he gets on the TV camera with some regularity so he can remind everyone that the Giants are owned by two families not one.
To QB or not to QB part X  
Colin@gbn : 3/8/2018 2:36 pm : link
Keith: Truth be told Paul and I have never talked about the #2 pick, but I had a feeling he might think that way. And I believe one can certainly make the case that the Giants go that way. I don't believe they do because even if Barkley turns out to be the best back in the NFL since Jimmy Brown, you are still going to need to find a QB to be legit championship contender down the road. And the fact is that the QBs available at #2 are likely going to be far and away the best prospects at the position that the Giants are going to see any time soon. On the other hand, there are all kinds of ways to upgrade at RB that just aren't there at QB.

The other part of the equation is where Eli is at. Obviously, there were issues along the OL that will need to be addressed whoever the QB is going forward and there were real issues at WR with the injuries last year, but almost everything I heard from withing the Giants org the past couple of years was that Eli just wasn't playing very well.

One can hope that he bounces back - and I'll be the happiest guy in the room - but at 37 it just isn't something you can count on or plan for.
I love the tag team style of todays chat!  
Dave : 3/8/2018 2:37 pm : link
Colin, thanks for coming again, and for bringing your buddy, and Paul thanks for coming!
RE: Draft projection  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/8/2018 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13855285 PigskinPaul said:
Quote:
Late me make the general observation that this upcoming Draft is very deep with NFL caliber players, but once we get past the top 12-15 the sure things get scarce. Expect a run for 5-6 QB in Round 1 which is one or two too many. I found Gettleman to be kind of a blah pick to run the organization, but it did not surprise me. We're back to the fact that John Mara doesn't think outside the box IMO. Mr. Tisch doesn't know a whole lot about football, and is content if his check shows up and he gets on the TV camera with some regularity so he can remind everyone that the Giants are owned by two families not one.


Iím hoping at least 6 QBs in the first round. It makes our 2nd round pick much more valuable
should NYG consider USC RB Jones?  
Dave : 3/8/2018 2:42 pm : link
can he help the passing game enough for Shurmer?
Darnold  
Colin@gbn : 3/8/2018 2:44 pm : link
Somebody (Ry; Keith) asked why we have Darnold #3; the simple answer is almost I dunno! Fact is I go back and forth on all of these kinds. I guess I see Darnold as being a little too scattered in terms of his mechanics, decision-making and playing style and I worry more than the other guys that that kind of stuff isn't as coachable as their issues. I also just see Rosen and Allen - if they play to their physical potentials - as having higher ceilings.


In the end, though it doesn't matter what I think (and why I am always very hesitant to make such rankings) what matters is what the Giants think and that's all I really care about.
Great  
AcidTest : 3/8/2018 2:47 pm : link
stuff. Love it!
2nd round  
Colin@gbn : 3/8/2018 2:49 pm : link
Dave et al: Frustrating thing about this draft for the Giants is that they only have one second round pick. Fact is there goin got be some very good interior OL at that point, some very good edge rushers and some very good RBs but you can only take one (although some will still be available at #65. And certainly I would think that a RB like USC's Jones who is very fast would be on their short list at #34. One other RB I would mention for the 3-4 round range is Kalen Ballage who is a really good receiver also with pretty good speed.
More on the 2nd rounder  
Colin@gbn : 3/8/2018 2:53 pm : link
Really good point Gidie! Given that I suspect the Giants will take a QB at #2 to me their 'first-round' pick is really #34. And if 5-6 QBs do come off the board in the opening round, then whatever position they do ultimately target you really want to get a first round quality guy. And I think I've said it before but the guy I really like is UGA's Wynn who likely won't last to #34, but ....
QB Class  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 2:55 pm : link
Let me add that I think the Top 4 (Darnold, Allen, Rosen, Mayfield) all have starting NFL potential. I'll bet two of them become Franchise QB. But they are different and all will need some TLC and patience. I will tell you that I had he very strong impression leaving the SR Bowl that the long term favorite to excel was JOSH ALLEN. And in reality his size and big arm are the biggest reasons why. I would also tell you that the other he showed in Mobile was some humility and PMA. Ad I do not think it was fake. But if i were Cleveland I'd try to sign one of the VFA and take the best guy left after Round 1. And BTW Browns don't give up on KIZER just yet.
Pigskin  
Colin@gbn : 3/8/2018 2:55 pm : link
Just reread Eric's intro and a small correction which might give some context to Paul's comments. I am a Giants fan going on 61 years. Paul is not. I let me tell you who he cheers for (if he actually cheers for anyone) but I know its not the Giants so he doesn't have those blinders.
Top 3  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 2:57 pm : link
So to summarize I see BARLEY, CONNOR WILLIAMS & LAULETTA for the G-Men, with a little luck, and I like OGLETREE coming to the Big Apple!

Thanks for letting me in. Now I gotta run and pick-up my grand kids from school. Duty calls.
|Cheers Pigskin
GMen  
PigskinPaul : 3/8/2018 3:00 pm : link
I did start my luv of football with watching the Giants every Sunday back when Connerly, Gifford, Huff and the boys were the best team in football history, per Chris Schenkel.
Thanks Guys  
mrvax : 3/8/2018 3:01 pm : link
.
Last thought  
Colin@gbn : 3/8/2018 3:03 pm : link
One last point I wanted to make today. And its been fun guys! Great questions. And it relates to the difference between fans and NFL personnel people. Fans tend to desperately want their team to get better and so want their picks to stick so they think about about 'safe' picks tend to concentrate a lot on the negatives. On the other hand NFL tend to be more driven by the desire to build a championship team. That means you have to be the 1 out of 32 so they tend to look more for upside. Just something to think about
Great stuff guys,  
Keith : 3/8/2018 3:03 pm : link
thank you.
Do you think the Giants would trade down  
Reale01 : 3/8/2018 3:04 pm : link
How far down could they go and still get an impact player in round 1? Seems like they could do a lot of good if they were able to accumulate 2nd round picks.

Thank you for your time and expertise
Thanks a lot to both Colin and Grandpa Pigskin  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/8/2018 3:11 pm : link
Very stimilating conversation guys. We appreciate your contributions to our delinquency
If the Giants go QB...  
Chris684 : 3/8/2018 3:11 pm : link
Josh Allen makes a ton of sense for them given their HC's area of expertise, his physical ability/mobility, and where they are as an organization (near but not quite at the end) with Eli.

My wish list for the start of their draft is in this order:

Take Nelson after a slight trade drown (4-5 range).
Take Barkley at 2.
Take Allen at 2.
Thanks Colin & Paul  
JonC : 3/8/2018 3:40 pm : link
!
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/8/2018 3:43 pm : link
Thanks guys!

Colin, I saw in Paul's bio that he grew up watching the Giants so I thought he was a Giants fan.
RE: If the Giants go QB...  
Rjanyg : 3/8/2018 3:45 pm : link
In comment 13855350 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Josh Allen makes a ton of sense for them given their HC's area of expertise, his physical ability/mobility, and where they are as an organization (near but not quite at the end) with Eli.

My wish list for the start of their draft is in this order:

Take Nelson after a slight trade drown (4-5 range).
Take Barkley at 2.
Take Allen at 2.


I think I feel the same way Chris.

I was originally thinking Darnold at the QB but at this point Allen seems to have the bigger upside. Rosen seems to be the guy that could start sooner.

I would prefer these scenarios in this order:

1. trade back with Cleveland to 4, pick up 2 - 2nd round picks and a 4th. Draft Nelson. Get a pass rushing LB, OT prospect and a RB in round 2 ( Landry, Crosby, Michel )

2. Take Barkley at 2

3. Take Allen at 2
All you guys with the  
allstarjim : 3/8/2018 4:32 pm : link
thought of trading down to 4-6 and drafting Nelson, why don't we just trade down to 11-15 and draft McGlinchey? Do you think that a good OG is going to make us any better than a good LT?

So I think the answer I will get will be related to HOW good Nelson is vs McGlinchey. But the latter is being a little overshadowed. He is very, very good and could solve LT for a long time for the OL. And the return would be much, much better.

I just think if you're going to trade down for an OL, get a LOT back...trade farther back. Because like Colin said, a great OG isn't going to get you that much closer to being a championship team.
Jim you answered your own question  
Chris684 : 3/8/2018 4:37 pm : link
Nelson is thought of as a HOF caliber prospect and the best, if not second best collegiate prospect for 2018 so grabbing him at 4 or 5 is massive value.

The trickiest part of that scenario is obviously Nelson being available at 4 or 5 as people seem to be overlooking the fact that the Colts have a currently injured top QB who has not had and needs an O-line just as bad if not more than our QB does.
RE: Jim you answered your own question  
allstarjim : 3/8/2018 5:20 pm : link
In comment 13855477 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Nelson is thought of as a HOF caliber prospect and the best, if not second best collegiate prospect for 2018 so grabbing him at 4 or 5 is massive value.

The trickiest part of that scenario is obviously Nelson being available at 4 or 5 as people seem to be overlooking the fact that the Colts have a currently injured top QB who has not had and needs an O-line just as bad if not more than our QB does.


Yes but HOF guards don't win you Super Bowls. Just ask Steve Hutchinson. And don't come back to me with "what about Alan Faneca, though?" My point is, I'm good with a trade down, but if we're doing it to target an OL, come down a little more, get the LT cornerstone, and get a GREAT haul in return, not just a good one.
RE: Jim you answered your own question  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 3/8/2018 5:23 pm : link
In comment 13855477 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Nelson is thought of as a HOF caliber prospect and the best, if not second best collegiate prospect for 2018 so grabbing him at 4 or 5 is massive value.

The trickiest part of that scenario is obviously Nelson being available at 4 or 5 as people seem to be overlooking the fact that the Colts have a currently injured top QB who has not had and needs an O-line just as bad if not more than our QB does.


If you believe Colin's post on Nelson above, then the question being asked makes a lot of sense.
Agree to disagree  
Chris684 : 3/8/2018 5:24 pm : link
Why do I want to target a trade where I get a lesser player? I want the best football players I can acquire period.

Nelson is top 2 in the country.
The idea that we may be  
jvm52106 : 3/8/2018 5:50 pm : link
in a quick rebuild and try and win with Eli 2 year window makes me think the QB of choice will be Josh Allen and not Darnold or Rosen.

Allen will be the one who benefits the most from sitting and if you know you are thinking 2 years down the line, you can still find reps for Webb to showcase him as a possible item next off season.

Big strong armed QB's who can move are hard to find. Rosen's concussions scare me. Darnold and his turnovers and less than 2 full years of work scares me.

I think Josh Allen ends up being the guy.
I can't fathom anyone believing for a second  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/8/2018 6:51 pm : link
that people believe "win now, two year window" is a thing. Did we not watch the playoffs? Are we not past the denial stage after witnessing the Eagles be an excellent team from start to finish and be built for long term success?

RE: I can't fathom anyone believing for a second  
Go Terps : 3/8/2018 7:41 pm : link
In comment 13855615 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
that people believe "win now, two year window" is a thing. Did we not watch the playoffs? Are we not past the denial stage after witnessing the Eagles be an excellent team from start to finish and be built for long term success?


Yup. Been a problem with this team for years.
RE: Jim you answered your own question  
bw in dc : 3/8/2018 8:02 pm : link
In comment 13855477 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Nelson is thought of as a HOF caliber prospect and the best, if not second best collegiate prospect for 2018 so grabbing him at 4 or 5 is massive value.



Out of curiosity, how is Nelson considered a HoF caliber prospect? He looks good on the video but it's a helluva leap - not saying you are making it here (yet) - to think blocking fellow D1 college talent, and mostly dominating it, means that will convey to the pro level. There is just as good of a chance that Nelson has actually peaked and he's only dominant at the college level...
RE: I can't fathom anyone believing for a second  
Jimmy Googs : 3/8/2018 8:20 pm : link
In comment 13855615 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
that people believe "win now, two year window" is a thing. Did we not watch the playoffs? Are we not past the denial stage after witnessing the Eagles be an excellent team from start to finish and be built for long term success?


Easy on the "built for long term success" stuff...the ball bounces funny for teams year-to-year (except the Patriots). Injuries, game-changing plays, complacency, etc are all factors that dramatically sway team fortunes.
This was  
mattyblue : 3/8/2018 9:59 pm : link
an absolutely excellent read. Thank you very much to Colin, Paul, Eric and anyone else involved in making this happen. Itís great every year and I always look forward to it
RE: RE: I can't fathom anyone believing for a second  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/8/2018 10:12 pm : link
In comment 13855697 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13855615 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


that people believe "win now, two year window" is a thing. Did we not watch the playoffs? Are we not past the denial stage after witnessing the Eagles be an excellent team from start to finish and be built for long term success?




Easy on the "built for long term success" stuff...the ball bounces funny for teams year-to-year (except the Patriots). Injuries, game-changing plays, complacency, etc are all factors that dramatically sway team fortunes.


But the pieces are there. Obviously health is always a concern for anyone, but they have everything they need to continue being excellent for that same two year window people are imagining for us.

We don't even beat the eagles when they suck.
We don't beat the Eagles because of a lot of reasons  
Jimmy Googs : 3/8/2018 10:20 pm : link
Point still the same that teams go up and down, sometimes to extremes, in the NFL each year.
Thank you all! Great insights.....wonderful read!  
George from PA : 3/8/2018 10:28 pm : link
So QB 123......makes sense. I wish I knew where Webb compares to these guys?

Barkley will be tempting.....in away, I wish Cleveland must have the 1st 2 picks....so we get our QB at 4. And some extra 2nd rounders
What in the hell is a 40 yard dash going to tell anyone about  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 3/9/2018 12:14 am : link
an offensive lineman?
RE: What in the hell is a 40 yard dash going to tell anyone about  
Diver_Down : 3/9/2018 5:58 am : link
In comment 13855801 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
an offensive lineman?


The 40 for OL is far more telling than just speed between point A and B. The initial 10 yard split is an indicator of their ability to pull or to get out on a screen. Running a screen is difficult if you don't have anyone blocking. Also, the overall physique of a player is on display. All the scouts understand that these are big men so they are looking for a male model. But they expect to see a player who is solid. If they see the ass and thighs all jiggly with sugar tits swaying to and fro, they might question the player's commitment to the gym. Overall, it is one more piece of information to help them arrive at their decision.
RE: BENKERT  
bw in dc : 3/9/2018 8:11 am : link
In comment 13855270 PigskinPaul said:
Quote:
I am sorry to say I just don't thin BENKERT has the arm or athleticism to do much in the NFL. And that hurts me to say cause he's had a fairly tough life and has persevered. He really looked solid most of the 2017 season. He has limited back-up potential for NFL. When he's good he's O, but when he's overmatched he's a mistake machine.


You can question Benkertís decision making because it just drives you nuts. The guy is the king of the bird-dog...

But Iím not buying this lack of arm comment. Based on what? He can really drive the ball with velocity. Itís the skill that has kept him on draft boards.
RE: RE: BENKERT  
allstarjim : 3/10/2018 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13855863 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13855270 PigskinPaul said:


Quote:


I am sorry to say I just don't thin BENKERT has the arm or athleticism to do much in the NFL. And that hurts me to say cause he's had a fairly tough life and has persevered. He really looked solid most of the 2017 season. He has limited back-up potential for NFL. When he's good he's O, but when he's overmatched he's a mistake machine.



You can question Benkertís decision making because it just drives you nuts. The guy is the king of the bird-dog...

But Iím not buying this lack of arm comment. Based on what? He can really drive the ball with velocity. Itís the skill that has kept him on draft boards.


I've said he doesn't have an NFL arm for awhile now. Seems like a below-average NFL arm from everything I've seen of him.
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