This roster is so thin that getting rid of him and going for the full rebuild would be my preference. I love Eli, but if he waived his no trade clause I'd trade him, because this team is quite a ways from a SB contender, and I'd prefer to suffer for a few more years with the hope that we could draft high again next year and rebuild the whole roster.
We'd recoup about $10M this year against the cap (but have $12M in dead cap costs) and would have $17M more cap space next offseason.
Eli is obviously not part of our future, so IMO it would be time to cut bait if he'd be willing to waive the no trade and we found a team interested in him.
(I know this has been beaten to death, but I was looking over the roster again, and I can't identify any other players who might be possible trade bait given their cap hits and/or talent level. We really are thin!)
stop stating he isn't in decline. I don't believe that's accurate either...
The backlash by the media and the fans during Geno Gate shook him to the core. It was so bad he had to call his football muse - Ernie Accorsi - to help restore order.
So Ernie ordered Eli to untouchable status and brought in his old boy DG. And Mara nodded approvingly...
So just because the Giants are moving forward with Eli it is a foregone conclusion he is going to miraculously turn his play around and be great next year?
Also, stop calling us anti Eli. We are just pro Giants and think it is time to move on. I don't hate Eli and I never did. I used to defend him to no end. But he is not the same player he used to be, and if he is going to eat a huge chunk of the Giant's cap space then he needs to be much better than he has been the last two years.
Not in decline? He was worse in 2016 than he was in 2015. He was way worse in 2017 than he was in 2016. That is called a decline. I know you want to continue to make excuses for him but at what point should you demand a $22M QB elevates his teammates?
If he was a franchise QB who would be around for the next decade he'd be part of the long term solution for the team and untouchable. But he's not, and we need a ton. So getting his $ off the cap, getting more picks, AND losing as many games as possible, will only help us down the line.
Bill, I agree. As was said in Shawshank, "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best thing". And I want spring to come sooner than it likely will if we keep Eli.
A solid running game,
A pass-catching TE,
A set of playmakers at receivers,
A QB-friendly offensive system,
and a great defense, such as the one that never gave up more than 20 points in any of Eli’s 8 career playoff victories.
Did I miss something? These are really not too much to ask for, right? Many QBs in today’s NFL would need a lot more to be successful.
A solid running game,
A pass-catching TE,
A set of playmakers at receivers,
A QB-friendly offensive system,
and a great defense, such as the one that never gave up more than 20 points in any of Eli’s 8 career playoff victories.
Did I miss something? These are really not too much to ask for, right?
Many QBs in today’s NFL would need a lot more to be successful.
May as well throw in special teams. He’s going to need a great punter to bail him out of poor field position and a dependable FG kicker to get points when Eli can’t punch it in for six...
Then our “franchise QB” will have everything in place to just be one of the 22 starters trying to contribute to a winning team.
The rest of the league knew this, the rest of the league realized how out of depth they both were, how utterly clueless and desperate they became as the season wore on. There were decisions made by both that had nothing to do with making the Giants a better team and everything to do with saving their asses. This was the single worst example of CYA at any cost that the NFL has seen in years. And while Mara may escape the rightful indignation towards himself to a large degree the fact still remains that he is also culpable in this perfect storm of a disaster. The other 31 teams understand that they realized that the talent played below expectations because of the leadership at the top. The cancers that developed were a result of players mimicking the same CYA aspect the HC and GM were guilty of.
These two were failures in every single area that describes their job and the rest of the NFL knows this. This roster is much better then what their record showed. Sure there are areas that need a complete overhaul (O-Line) and others that have question marks where none existed before (DB's, WR's) but we now have fucking grown-ups in charge, knowledgeable deeply experienced Football people who also realize how bad things were last season but understand there is a workable core that needs some foundation work and might just shock the rest of the league with some right moves.
Let them do their work
I think many on BBI are discounting the "McAdoo/Reese Effect"
The backlash by the media and the fans during Geno Gate shook him to the core. It was so bad he had to call his football muse - Ernie Accorsi - to help restore order.
So Ernie ordered Eli to untouchable status and brought in his old boy DG. And Mara nodded approvingly...
You know reading your posts over time I have come to the conclusion you must be either 12 years old or living in a fantasy world...
I like this post, and a sensible response, rather than a "fuck you" response.
I'd prefer to move on as well, but, I'm trusting getts and rest of decision makers on going about next year and future.
Thing is, if they did trade eli and other moves, if the direction, they could really parlay this draft into abundance of picks not only for this draft but future drafts, which would really set them up good flow of talent down the line.
If anything, it should be an interesting time here for the giants.
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But Mara won't ever let this happen. He's all in on Eli now more than ever.
The backlash by the media and the fans during Geno Gate shook him to the core. It was so bad he had to call his football muse - Ernie Accorsi - to help restore order.
So Ernie ordered Eli to untouchable status and brought in his old boy DG. And Mara nodded approvingly...
You know reading your posts over time I have come to the conclusion you must be either 12 years old or living in a fantasy world...
Mock away my friend. Mock away.
But let me remind you of this six day span last year at Jints Central:
Eli stands in front of his locker crying after being unceremoniously benched, a defiant coach has a press conference telling the world everyone is on board with the benching and ending of Eli’s streak, Geno is inextricably announced as the starter, Mara is AWOL, the media and the fans go into a frenzy, Geno plays and there are endless shots of Eli on the sidelines, there are rumors of a fan revolt for the Dallas game, Mara fires McAdoo, Mara crawls out of his bunker and has hastily prepared press conference where he looks as uncomfortable as a human being can look, Accorsi is summoned to Jints Central to “consult”, Reese is fired, the world awaits the white smoke from Jints Central for the next GM, in the most predictable act ever, Mara hires Accorsi’s buddy Dave Gettleman...
Indeed, I’m living in fantasy land...
I was totally okay with sitting him last year. They weren't going anywhere and weren't sure what they had behind him. no running game, wr corps decimated with injuries - why leave him in there to take a chance on getting him injured in meaningless games?
And I think we have to wait and see what O-Line they add and equally if not more important - what can they do with the palyers they have now. bit of a puzzle - OLine is the problem but they played fairly well in both game against Eagles - arguably best DLine in the league.
Eli is clearly near end of his career. But, I'm of the mind that we get the remaining quality years out of him while setting up an orderly transition. And he only has two years left on contract anyway.
about 1/4 of the roster are guaranteed gone. And, there will be a few more. FA has not even started yet and there is the draft. That is not even counting the 10-15 rookies who will be contending for jobs - 4-6 of them prety much guaranteed.
All together that is about 1/3 of the roster. Some of you act like by not cutting Eli = they will be standing pat. again, that argument makes no sense to me.
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In comment 13857010 bw in dc said:
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But Mara won't ever let this happen. He's all in on Eli now more than ever.
The backlash by the media and the fans during Geno Gate shook him to the core. It was so bad he had to call his football muse - Ernie Accorsi - to help restore order.
So Ernie ordered Eli to untouchable status and brought in his old boy DG. And Mara nodded approvingly...
You know reading your posts over time I have come to the conclusion you must be either 12 years old or living in a fantasy world...
Mock away my friend. Mock away.
But let me remind you of this six day span last year at Jints Central:
Eli stands in front of his locker crying after being unceremoniously benched, a defiant coach has a press conference telling the world everyone is on board with the benching and ending of Eli’s streak, Geno is inextricably announced as the starter, Mara is AWOL, the media and the fans go into a frenzy, Geno plays and there are endless shots of Eli on the sidelines, there are rumors of a fan revolt for the Dallas game, Mara fires McAdoo, Mara crawls out of his bunker and has hastily prepared press conference where he looks as uncomfortable as a human being can look, Accorsi is summoned to Jints Central to “consult”, Reese is fired, the world awaits the white smoke from Jints Central for the next GM, in the most predictable act ever, Mara hires Accorsi’s buddy Dave Gettleman...
Indeed, I’m living in fantasy land...
You forgot he's innacurate and throws high and got OBJ and the rest of his receivers injured...
What a novel and rational comment. What are you doing here?
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In comment 13857010 bw in dc said:
Quote:
But Mara won't ever let this happen. He's all in on Eli now more than ever.
The backlash by the media and the fans during Geno Gate shook him to the core. It was so bad he had to call his football muse - Ernie Accorsi - to help restore order.
So Ernie ordered Eli to untouchable status and brought in his old boy DG. And Mara nodded approvingly...
You know reading your posts over time I have come to the conclusion you must be either 12 years old or living in a fantasy world...
Mock away my friend. Mock away.
But let me remind you of this six day span last year at Jints Central:
Eli stands in front of his locker crying after being unceremoniously benched, a defiant coach has a press conference telling the world everyone is on board with the benching and ending of Eli’s streak, Geno is inextricably announced as the starter, Mara is AWOL, the media and the fans go into a frenzy, Geno plays and there are endless shots of Eli on the sidelines, there are rumors of a fan revolt for the Dallas game, Mara fires McAdoo, Mara crawls out of his bunker and has hastily prepared press conference where he looks as uncomfortable as a human being can look, Accorsi is summoned to Jints Central to “consult”, Reese is fired, the world awaits the white smoke from Jints Central for the next GM, in the most predictable act ever, Mara hires Accorsi’s buddy Dave Gettleman...
Indeed, I’m living in fantasy land...
eli benched himself,mike francesa went nuts,the sports media followed up with the pile on and in the aftermath mara got cold feet and gave eli a 10% stake in the franchise.
Told ya. You refused to listen to logic and reason :)
However, I’m also fine with the idea to commit to Eli for the next 3 years and throw away the last 2 years as utter incompetence. Look at the Saints model. Get Eli a legit RB & build the line through FA. Webb is developmental and he gets a few more years under Eli.
I’m not half assing it. Make a decision either way & commit to it. It makes no sense paying Eli & a rookie 2nd pick QB.
However, I’m also fine with the idea to commit to Eli for the next 3 years and throw away the last 2 years as utter incompetence. Look at the Saints model. Get Eli a legit RB & build the line through FA. Webb is developmental and he gets a few more years under Eli.
I’m not half assing it. Make a decision either way & commit to it. It makes no sense paying Eli & a rookie 2nd pick QB.
you want to commit another 3yrs to eli in which he will be 40,he was mediocre at 35. that is not a good plan.
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There needs to be a plan. If the Giants take a QB at 2, there will be massive outcry to start him as soon as things go south. It will be last year all over again. If this is the intention, I’d move on from Eli now.
However, I’m also fine with the idea to commit to Eli for the next 3 years and throw away the last 2 years as utter incompetence. Look at the Saints model. Get Eli a legit RB & build the line through FA. Webb is developmental and he gets a few more years under Eli.
I’m not half assing it. Make a decision either way & commit to it. It makes no sense paying Eli & a rookie 2nd pick QB.
you want to commit another 3yrs to eli in which he will be 40,he was mediocre at 35. that is not a good plan.
Fine. Let’s move on now then. We have a new coach, the 2nd pick in the draft in what is considered a QB strong class. I have zero issue with this.
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In comment 13857354 Sean said:
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There needs to be a plan. If the Giants take a QB at 2, there will be massive outcry to start him as soon as things go south. It will be last year all over again. If this is the intention, I’d move on from Eli now.
However, I’m also fine with the idea to commit to Eli for the next 3 years and throw away the last 2 years as utter incompetence. Look at the Saints model. Get Eli a legit RB & build the line through FA. Webb is developmental and he gets a few more years under Eli.
I’m not half assing it. Make a decision either way & commit to it. It makes no sense paying Eli & a rookie 2nd pick QB.
you want to commit another 3yrs to eli in which he will be 40,he was mediocre at 35. that is not a good plan.
Fine. Let’s move on now then. We have a new coach, the 2nd pick in the draft in what is considered a QB strong class. I have zero issue with this.
i concur doctor.
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In comment 13857354 Sean said:
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There needs to be a plan. If the Giants take a QB at 2, there will be massive outcry to start him as soon as things go south. It will be last year all over again. If this is the intention, I’d move on from Eli now.
However, I’m also fine with the idea to commit to Eli for the next 3 years and throw away the last 2 years as utter incompetence. Look at the Saints model. Get Eli a legit RB & build the line through FA. Webb is developmental and he gets a few more years under Eli.
I’m not half assing it. Make a decision either way & commit to it. It makes no sense paying Eli & a rookie 2nd pick QB.
you want to commit another 3yrs to eli in which he will be 40,he was mediocre at 35. that is not a good plan.
Fine. Let’s move on now then. We have a new coach, the 2nd pick in the draft in what is considered a QB strong class. I have zero issue with this.
I think you’d do just as well, and probably better, in bringing Bridgewater on board.
1What are your goals for the New York Giants?
2) by when do you want them accomplished?
3) What is your proposed plan for the New York Giants?
4) What actions could accelarate item 1 and 2 above?
Not feelings about those questions...concrete logical actions
1What are your goals for the New York Giants?
2) by when do you want them accomplished?
3) What is your proposed plan for the New York Giants?
4) What actions could accelarate item 1 and 2 above?
Not feelings about those questions...concrete logical actions
Bill, my thoughts are....
Rebuild the core of the team. Regain control of both lines of scrimmage through rebuilding the offensive line and and establishing a strong running game.
I think this could be turned around quickly with some thrifty moves this offseason. Signing Norwell and potentially another veteran to put in between existing pieces on the line and add cohesion could improve the line greatly, and quickly.
Personally, I would draft Barkley, but if he wasn't available I'd also be happy with Nelson for the reason I stated above. Norwell and Nelson would be an incredible haul towards controlling the offensive LOS. Norwell and Barkley would be equally impressive.
As for Eli, I would draft a pro style/ready QB in a later round, 2nd or after. I personally believe that recent draft history shows these players have a lot more impact and are ready to play/contribute earlier than highly touted spread offense QB's. Let Davis Webb and this draft pick QB duel it out in training camp for number 2 on the depth chart.
Eli starts, and one of two things happens. The team gets turned around quickly and they have success, at which point Eli will start again the following season and an evaluation will be made on the situation in the last year of his contract, or the team struggles and the coach decides to make a change mid season from Eli to whomever has won the opportunity to step in between Davis Webb and future QB.
I do believe there is talent on this team, and I do believe that any team in the NFL can go from worst to first in a single offseason.
Superbowl
ASAP
Restock the following positions with average or above talent through FA and the draft in this order of priority:
OL
RB
WR2
LB
FS
CB
See answer to question 3.
The plan is simple, the execution less so. But that's why DG gets paid the big bucks.
The Giants already accomplished my original number 1 and 2 tasks which were fire Reese and fire McAdoo.
I do think they can pull it off and I think Eli deserves another shot. He threw behind that shit line for years without ever throwing them or Reese under the bus.
Let him swing for the fences this year with a legit line. If he strikes out, then I'll get behind scrapping him.
But to me a good runnning game requires 4 new lineman, one more blocking TE, someone other than marshal so the safeties have to play further back and 2 new rb...and a QB who is a threat enough that you have to defend back and the sidelines.
Seriously. And it may need 5 new lineman.
Meanwhile that has to be done while adding to the defense and a punter and kicker.
Again, how close to the goal we are is going to be much better handicapped in 5 weeks.
And although it is true that a team can go from bad to a good record exposed in the playoffs in one year is is also very true that a team can bump along bad to mediocre for a decade or two.
The fans of teams that showed a flash record of 9 and 7 admidst years of rationalizing hopa hopa are the largest segment of NFL fans.
To me, the goal is not a good year. To me the goal is escape velocity.
Sorry i watched the late 60s and all of the seventies
In fact, I truly believe the leave is cycling back around to this model, along with spread concepts because colleges are not producing pro style qb's anymore. It's all about the system.
Exactly.
Imagine the optimism around here going into the 2019 season with a new franchise QB and all that cap room not to mention another potential early 1st round pick in the 10-15 range.
Right on.
Did Eli?
So what does that "yes" mean to me? He's the starting QB until the moment a better option comes along. A 20 or 21 year old Andrew Luck/Carson Wentz might be a better option. Another NFL team offering a 1st or 2nd round pick might lead to a better option. He's certainly getting up there in age where they need to actively have their eyes open to both scenarios, but this desire to move on from him is strange. I might be wrong but I don't think the Steelers fans or Charger fans are as desperate to get rid of his contemporaries Rivers/Big Ben.
And with all of that said, as much as the starting QB is the most important position in all sports, even Aaron Rodgers would have a tough time leading this Giant roster to wins if they don't improve their play in the trenches. They need to get better running the football, stopping the run and rushing the passer no matter who the QB is. So to answer the questions above posted by Bill, that's where my focus would be. Improve the flaws of the entire roster and actively search for young QB's. Those 2 things can happen independently of wishing away the best qb in franchise history. I do not think it's out of the question that a good offseason and solid health luck can lead to another playoff appearance like 2016.
I don't think anyone is advocating overpaying a very short term move as many wanted with a 34 year old Andrew Whitworth last year or as they did with Brandon Marshall. The most "win now" move I've seen anyone endorse is signing Nate Solder, who is the same age Shaun O'hara was when he signed with the Giants.
I've always been an Eli defender and loyalist, but all good things come to an end, and sometimes it's better to do this a year early than a year late. Well, imo we're already beyond that point with Eli.
I don't doubt that with a rebuilt OL and LB corps we might play around .500 ball next year with Eli at the helm. But that doesn't get us near the promised land. Only by giving our kid QB(s) a chance to play and grow do we accomplish that. We'd have to tolerate losing a LOT of games for a year or two, but at the end of that time we might be quite a talented, young team.
Keeping Eli just suspends that type of growth. And I love Eli. But facts are facts.
Montana, I agree with your assessments of McAdoo and Reese, but the roster is awful right now. Let's hope for the best in FA and the draft.
Time to start that clock.
Jimmy Googs : 3/9/2018 7:50 pm : link : reply
because it means you took the unpopular albeit rational view that sometimes it gets worse before it gets better.
It is the thought that it is a rational decision. We don't gain any equity by getting rid of Eli, especially if the return isn't decent. We actually will have dead money when just a year from now we can trade or release him without a significant cap impact.
Whenever there's pushback on removing Eli, it is getting to the point that people who defend eli are the ones getting shouted down - and frankly, it is less of a defense of Eli and more that it just doesn't make sense to move him.
I truly believe there are posters who think Eli is the #1 problem on the team. And yet we're told that the take on trading him is rational? It isn't, no matter ho many times people try to post that it is.
Imo, the operative words are not Eli this or Eli that but rather: " being open"
Cutting him would result in a dead cap hit of 12.5 million.
We need a veteran QB on the roster next year. They're not just going to throw a rookie out there, or Davis Webb, week 1. Look around the league.... Look at the QB's making around 10 million per year (the difference between Manning's dead cap hit and actual cap hit).
Mike Glennon, Chicago, $14 million
Jay Cutler, Miami, $10 million
Tyrod Taylor, Buffalo, $9.7 million
Jameis Winston, Tampa Bay, $6.9 million
Marcus Mariota, Tennessee, $6.6 million
Blake Bortles, Jacksonville, $6.57 million
Josh McCown, N.Y. Jets, $6.5 million
So what's a better value to you to start next year?
Eli Manning at 22 million, or one of the above guys as 12.5 million (dead money) plus their salary?
Either way, you're going to have about 20 million in cap space allotted to the starting QB position.
Bang for buck, Eli is more valuable playing for us next year than anything we'd get in return for him, for multiple reasons.
We now have weekly trade eli threads that posture he needs to be off the roster for the team to move forward or that a newly drafted QB should come right in (or worse yet, have Webb take over while the new guy gets acclimated). And people call that a rational discussion.
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And enjoy the potty mouth comments coming your way
Jimmy Googs : 3/9/2018 7:50 pm : link : reply
because it means you took the unpopular albeit rational view that sometimes it gets worse before it gets better.
It is the thought that it is a rational decision. We don't gain any equity by getting rid of Eli, especially if the return isn't decent. We actually will have dead money when just a year from now we can trade or release him without a significant cap impact.
Whenever there's pushback on removing Eli, it is getting to the point that people who defend eli are the ones getting shouted down - and frankly, it is less of a defense of Eli and more that it just doesn't make sense to move him.
I truly believe there are posters who think Eli is the #1 problem on the team. And yet we're told that the take on trading him is rational? It isn't, no matter ho many times people try to post that it is.
look who just showed up,the little boy in the eli manning pajamas.
If you read my comment and picture me in Manning pajamas, then you match the mental picture I have of you being a fucking ignorant asswipe.
Good job.