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Bills open To Deal

TheVette : 3/9/2018 8:34 pm
Dealt their starting QB for 3rd round pick, now giving them 6 picks in rounds 1-3 of this draft. I have no doubt they are prime to deal, and after the trade with the Browns - the Giants are now their target to guarantee they get their guy.

I see the Giants roster as undermanned and under-talented. I would like to see the Giants engage the Bills and load up picks to build the talent and depth base.

They have already committed to, they have 3rd round pick committed in Davis - if they go bust with those 2 in 2018, they likely are looking at another top 5 pick in 2019.

Make the deal DG - start turning over and rebuilding this roster. All those picks from the Bills is a good start, and along with Norwell - target the OL.
The Bills are a playoff team needing a QB  
Jimmy Googs : 3/9/2018 8:35 pm : link
so we should offer Eli....
...committed to Eli  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 8:36 pm : link
need to learn how to type
RE: The Bills are a playoff team needing a QB  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 8:37 pm : link
In comment 13856908 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
so we should offer Eli....


Eli is not going anywhere this year.
JFC  
Phil in LA : 3/9/2018 8:37 pm : link
the Bills entire franchise and history is not worth a move from early 20s to number 2 overall. Where does this wacko sense of entitlement come from?
Catch-22  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/9/2018 8:37 pm : link
You want to load up on kids and expensive free agents to make the team better around a 37 year old QB. Team will be just good enough to get nowhere near a QB when they need one.
@TheVette  
81_Great_Dane : 3/9/2018 8:44 pm : link
Quote:
Make the deal DG - start turning over and rebuilding this roster. All those picks from the Bills is a good start, and along with Norwell - target the OL.


What deal are you thinking of? The Bills' two first-rounders aren't worth trading the #2 for. But maybe they can load up on picks and pry it loose.
RE: Catch-22  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 8:44 pm : link
In comment 13856916 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
You want to load up on kids and expensive free agents to make the team better around a 37 year old QB. Team will be just good enough to get nowhere near a QB when they need one.


This is a 2-year rebuild- at least. Load up on kids this year, start with Eli, given him a quick hook if he falters, see what you have with Webb, and i that fails - pick a QB in the top 5 next year. People are delusional if they think drafting Rosen or Dranold to sit behind Eli will do anything but increase this team's win total with the lousy roster they have. The OL sucks, they have no RB, they have no LBs, the secondary is in disarray. How is this 3-win team going to vault to a 9, 10 win team by
I discussed on the other thread...but  
ryanmkeane : 3/9/2018 8:46 pm : link
21, 22, 53, and a 2019 1st would do it for me i think. Especially since the bills pick in 2019 could be in the top 15.
RE: @TheVette  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 8:47 pm : link
In comment 13856927 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:


Quote:


Make the deal DG - start turning over and rebuilding this roster. All those picks from the Bills is a good start, and along with Norwell - target the OL.



What deal are you thinking of? The Bills' two first-rounders aren't worth trading the #2 for. But maybe they can load up on picks and pry it loose.


2 #1s this year, 2 #2s this year, and a 3 this years and a 1 next year. Bills are all in for a QB - that's the cost right now.
When are they going to cut  
Rflairr : 3/9/2018 8:47 pm : link
Cordy Glenn, so we can sign him!
Way way  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 3/9/2018 8:48 pm : link
way too far to drop.

You guys don't seem to grasp the rarity of getting the 2nd player in the draftm
RE: Way way  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 8:50 pm : link
In comment 13856937 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
way too far to drop.

You guys don't seem to grasp the rarity of getting the 2nd player in the draftm


Where has anyone proposed that the price for the #2 pick is ONLY the Bills 2 1st round picks - add to that their 2 2nd round picks, their 2 3rd round picks and a 1 next year. They just traded their starting QB - rape them - it should be clear that's what they are targeting.
RE: RE: Catch-22  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/9/2018 8:52 pm : link
In comment 13856928 TheVette said:
Quote:
In comment 13856916 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


You want to load up on kids and expensive free agents to make the team better around a 37 year old QB. Team will be just good enough to get nowhere near a QB when they need one.



This is a 2-year rebuild- at least. Load up on kids this year, start with Eli, given him a quick hook if he falters, see what you have with Webb, and i that fails - pick a QB in the top 5 next year.

If it's a 2-year rebuild, then why rebuild around a guy who will be 40?

And what if there isn't a QB worth taking? QBs aren't an annual crop. You couldn't have enjoyed a 13 loss season so much that you'd be willing to go through it again some time within the next 3 years.

This is the best QB class in a number of years and some people insist it's not impressive enough for their tastes to take one.
I doubt the Bills could put together an offer  
81_Great_Dane : 3/9/2018 8:54 pm : link
that the Giants would take. If they could pry loose the Browns' #4, maybe, or the Jets' first pick, but the Jets are in the same division and the Browns are a geographical competitor, trying to attract fans in the same region. Both teams have a disincentive to trade with the Bills.
RE: RE: RE: Catch-22  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 8:57 pm : link
In comment 13856942 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13856928 TheVette said:


Quote:


In comment 13856916 Ten Ton Hammer said:

I have not seen any evidence that the Giants are willing ti cut ties with Eli. We can go back and forth as to whether they should or not ( I actually think they should), but if they are NOT - why draft a QB now if: 1) He won;t play, and 2) You have zero insight as to what you with Webb. The best way for this team to become competitive is to view this as 2 year project, and find a way to retool the roster with multiple round 1-3 picks this year and next. The Giants have:

1) No OL to speak of
2) No RB that is any good to start
3) No LB corp at all
4) Landon Collins and nothing else in the secondary
5) They do have the #2 pick in the draft, meaning they can address these holes fairly quickly by trading out of that spot.

Quote:


You want to load up on kids and expensive free agents to make the team better around a 37 year old QB. Team will be just good enough to get nowhere near a QB when they need one.



This is a 2-year rebuild- at least. Load up on kids this year, start with Eli, given him a quick hook if he falters, see what you have with Webb, and i that fails - pick a QB in the top 5 next year.


If it's a 2-year rebuild, then why rebuild around a guy who will be 40?

And what if there isn't a QB worth taking? QBs aren't an annual crop. You couldn't have enjoyed a 13 loss season so much that you'd be willing to go through it again some time within the next 3 years.

This is the best QB class in a number of years and some people insist it's not impressive enough for their tastes to take one.
They'd need to trade up twice  
adamg : 3/9/2018 9:00 pm : link
Get into the top 10 with their two first rounders then trade future picks to the Giants
RE: RE: RE: RE: Catch-22  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 9:02 pm : link
In comment 13856951 TheVette said:
Quote:

This is the best QB class in a number of years and some people insist it's not impressive enough for their tastes to take one.

So your choice is draft Allen, Rosen, or Darnold at #2 and think that solves all the other holes on this team? Eventually they will have to address those other holes - why not use the #2 pick to fill thos gaps, so when they come up again to take a QB with a high pick - you can surround the guy with a more talented team. And I know people want Eli traded - who will take him? What will they get for him?

I think the law of large numbers  
Jay in Toronto : 3/9/2018 9:05 pm : link
makes some sense in this near-lottery we call The Draft.
So why take the QB after you have fixed other things?  
Jimmy Googs : 3/9/2018 9:06 pm : link
Are you certain thats when a QB worth taking will be there??

unlikely path to restructure successfully...
RE: So why take the QB after you have fixed other things?  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 9:12 pm : link
In comment 13856959 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Are you certain thats when a QB worth taking will be there??

unlikely path to restructure successfully...


If the Giants are picking in the top 5 next year = there will be a QB out there. But if you think that QB is there now - who? Have not seen 1 "must-have guy" emerge from this group. There is no Peyton 1998, so who is this gotta-have guy - Rosen? Darnold, Allen? Mayfield?
God no, way too far to drop back.  
Torrag : 3/9/2018 9:12 pm : link
..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Catch-22  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/9/2018 9:14 pm : link
In comment 13856955 TheVette said:
Quote:

So your choice is draft Allen, Rosen, or Darnold at #2 and think that solves all the other holes on this team? Eventually they will have to address those other holes - why not use the #2 pick to fill thos gaps, so when they come up again to take a QB with a high pick - you can surround the guy with a more talented team. And I know people want Eli traded - who will take him? What will they get for him?


Drafting Allen, Rosen, or Darnold doesn't solve everything. Drafting Eli Manning when they were 4-12 didn't solve everything either. They didn't need a QB, right? They needed offensive line. Collins was good enough to win with if you protect him. Sounds familiar, doesn't it.

Nothing they do is going to fix it all in one move, but if you think one of the QBs is the guy for the next decade, you take him and figure out the other holes. Two years after they drafted manning they had a 3-4 year stretch of the best offensive line in football, and they didn't need a ridiculous trade and 15 draft picks to do it.
I like Rosen. But not surprised you don't see  
Jimmy Googs : 3/9/2018 9:17 pm : link
any of those guys as worth taking if you're looking for Peyton using hindsight.

Yet they all will be taken in Rd 1 and several will go onto successful QB careers.

but alas, lets stick with Eli and keep this path to nowhere going strong for another year or so...

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Catch-22  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 9:21 pm : link
In comment 13856970 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13856955 TheVette said:


Quote:






Drafting Allen, Rosen, or Darnold doesn't solve everything. Drafting Eli Manning when they were 4-12 didn't solve everything either. They didn't need a QB, right? They needed offensive line. Collins was good enough to win with if you protect him. Sounds familiar, doesn't it.

Nothing they do is going to fix it all in one move, but if you think one of the QBs is the guy for the next decade, you take him and figure out the other holes. Two years after they drafted manning they had a 3-4 year stretch of the best offensive line in football, and they didn't need a ridiculous trade and 15 draft picks to do it.


So which of these QBs is "too good" not to get 2 #1 picks from the Bills in 2018, 2 #2 picks from the Bills in 2018, a #3 picks from the Bills in 2018, and a #1 pick from the Bills in 2019? All 3 of them (Rosen, Darnold, Allen?) - are we looking at 1983 (Elway, Kelly, Marino)?, 2004 (Eli, Ben, Rivers)? If you are so sure they need to draft one of these guys - who?
The Giants ownership is too conservative an organization to approve  
GFAN52 : 3/9/2018 9:22 pm : link
that kind of a trade down with the Bills.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Catch-22  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/9/2018 9:27 pm : link
In comment 13856975 TheVette said:
Quote:
In comment 13856970 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13856955 TheVette said:


Quote:






Drafting Allen, Rosen, or Darnold doesn't solve everything. Drafting Eli Manning when they were 4-12 didn't solve everything either. They didn't need a QB, right? They needed offensive line. Collins was good enough to win with if you protect him. Sounds familiar, doesn't it.

Nothing they do is going to fix it all in one move, but if you think one of the QBs is the guy for the next decade, you take him and figure out the other holes. Two years after they drafted manning they had a 3-4 year stretch of the best offensive line in football, and they didn't need a ridiculous trade and 15 draft picks to do it.



So which of these QBs is "too good" not to get 2 #1 picks from the Bills in 2018, 2 #2 picks from the Bills in 2018, a #3 picks from the Bills in 2018, and a #1 pick from the Bills in 2019? All 3 of them (Rosen, Darnold, Allen?) - are we looking at 1983 (Elway, Kelly, Marino)?, 2004 (Eli, Ben, Rivers)? If you are so sure they need to draft one of these guys - who?


This proposed trade would be second in history to the Herschel Walker trade and has no chance of happening.
RE: The Giants ownership is too conservative an organization to approve  
FStubbs : 3/9/2018 9:30 pm : link
In comment 13856976 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
that kind of a trade down with the Bills.


The Giants ownership traditionally didn't fire a coach or GM in midseason either.

Anything's possible if the Bills make a good enough offer.
RE: RE: The Giants ownership is too conservative an organization to approve  
TheVette : 3/9/2018 9:45 pm : link
In comment 13856983 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13856976 GFAN52 said:



Anything's possible if the Bills make a good enough offer.


I'm with you there - the Giants may very end up keeping the pick, but never underestimate the desperation that some teams have. What the Bills have done suggest to me that they are stockpiling picks to move up to drafter a QB
RE: RE: The Giants ownership is too conservative an organization to approve  
GFAN52 : 3/9/2018 9:46 pm : link
In comment 13856983 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13856976 GFAN52 said:


Quote:


that kind of a trade down with the Bills.



The Giants ownership traditionally didn't fire a coach or GM in midseason either.

Anything's possible if the Bills make a good enough offer.


Possible but not probable.
the headline of this thread  
UESBLUE : 3/9/2018 9:57 pm : link
reads like you are stating a fact when it turns out this is your assumption.
Mara will not do jack shit  
big canoe jeff : 3/9/2018 10:11 pm : link
Thinks he can win next year best case with Manning 9-7 kick the can down the road. Manning needs to be traded but then again he has a no trade so he can veto all trades
Itís a 2 year rebuild DG better figure it out and get a QB
Reese really fucked up the team roster like an expansion team. BTW No one has hired him or Ross
you keep saying Giants should stock pile picks  
Vanzetti : 3/9/2018 10:16 pm : link
why shouldn't the Bills do the same?
Bills need to do what the Eagles did  
GeoMan999 : 3/9/2018 10:20 pm : link
Plenty of time for them to make a trade into the top 8-10 and then make the trade with the Giants. Very tricky, Howie Roseman was lucky that there were two teams interested in doing it so they could nab Wentz.
RE: RE: @TheVette  
Reale01 : 3/9/2018 10:20 pm : link
In comment 13856934 TheVette said:
Quote:
In comment 13856927 81_Great_Dane said:


Quote:




Quote:


Make the deal DG - start turning over and rebuilding this roster. All those picks from the Bills is a good start, and along with Norwell - target the OL.



What deal are you thinking of? The Bills' two first-rounders aren't worth trading the #2 for. But maybe they can load up on picks and pry it loose.



2 #1s this year, 2 #2s this year, and a 3 this years and a 1 next year. Bills are all in for a QB - that's the cost right now.


You would have to think about that if you are the Giants. You would end up with 2 good OL, an LB, a DB, an RB, and a DT in the first three rounds. Plus a pick you could use to trade up next year. That said I don't like dropping that far.
So u sticking with Eli?  
big canoe jeff : 3/9/2018 10:32 pm : link
Not drafting a Qb? BTW next years QB class sucks cluless media has never discussed
Not not an assumption Mara loves Eli willqpqppqpq  
big canoe jeff : 3/9/2018 10:39 pm : link
DG signed up for this gig. He better haventhq
RE: The Giants ownership is too conservative an organization to approve  
Sean : 3/9/2018 10:51 pm : link
In comment 13856976 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
that kind of a trade down with the Bills.


Thank god, because it would be the dumbest thing they could do.
RE: JFC  
Optimus-NY : 3/10/2018 3:56 am : link
In comment 13856914 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
the Bills entire franchise and history is not worth a move from early 20s to number 2 overall. Where does this wacko sense of entitlement come from?


This Vette poster is a hoot
I think  
mdthedream : 3/10/2018 7:47 am : link
if the Giants are going to do something like that they would trade to 4 first than trade back to Buff adding a ton more picks.
Iíd be ok trading down, but not that far......  
Simms11 : 3/10/2018 8:17 am : link
Weíve got the freaking #2 pick in the entire draft. We need to either trade down a few spots, if feasible or stay there and draft the best player on the board. I know we can get more picks, but thatís too far. Giants also canít show desperation at trying to obtain picks or they will lose their leverage as well. We could still make good use of 5 picks, high in every round.
RE: RE: So why take the QB after you have fixed other things?  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/10/2018 8:31 am : link
In comment 13856968 TheVette said:
Quote:
In comment 13856959 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Are you certain thats when a QB worth taking will be there??

unlikely path to restructure successfully...



If the Giants are picking in the top 5 next year = there will be a QB out there. But if you think that QB is there now - who? Have not seen 1 "must-have guy" emerge from this group. There is no Peyton 1998, so who is this gotta-have guy - Rosen? Darnold, Allen? Mayfield?

So you're arguing that none of the QBs this year are impressive, so they shouldn't take one just to take one, and your defense of that argument is that if building around Eli doesn't work, they can take a QB just to take one next year?

Implicit in your argument, I suppose, is that you're inclined to take Gettleman and Shurmur at their word when they say they believe Eli has yearS left. What if they had said "we think Eli can give us one more pretty good year"? Leaving aside what a ridiculous thing that would be to say (and further reason why you shouldn't ever really get too excited about effusive praise from the GM/HC), would it change your view?
RE: RE: RE: So why take the QB after you have fixed other things?  
TheVette : 3/10/2018 8:54 am : link
In comment 13857313 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13856968 TheVette said:


Quote:


In comment 13856959 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Are you certain thats when a QB worth taking will be there??

unlikely path to restructure successfully...




Implicit in your argument, I suppose, is that you're inclined to take Gettleman and Shurmur at their word when they say they believe Eli has yearS left. What if they had said "we think Eli can give us one more pretty good year"? Leaving aside what a ridiculous thing that would be to say (and further reason why you shouldn't ever really get too excited about effusive praise from the GM/HC), would it change your view?



I guess we could all psycho-analyze whether the praise if genuine or convenient - guess we'll see. What I do know is that this team has significant holes, mostly everywhere, and the main reason Reese is not here is because his roster construction via the draft was dreadful. I have long felt that the new regime would focus more on rebuilding/retooling the roster, by getting as many picks as possible, and trying to fortify the roster from a talent/depth standpoint. Some believe drafting the QB at #2 is the path there. Guess we'll see
RE: RE: RE: RE: So why take the QB after you have fixed other things?  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/10/2018 9:16 am : link
In comment 13857341 TheVette said:
Quote:
In comment 13857313 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13856968 TheVette said:


Quote:


In comment 13856959 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Are you certain thats when a QB worth taking will be there??

unlikely path to restructure successfully...




Implicit in your argument, I suppose, is that you're inclined to take Gettleman and Shurmur at their word when they say they believe Eli has yearS left. What if they had said "we think Eli can give us one more pretty good year"? Leaving aside what a ridiculous thing that would be to say (and further reason why you shouldn't ever really get too excited about effusive praise from the GM/HC), would it change your view?




I guess we could all psycho-analyze whether the praise if genuine or convenient - guess we'll see. What I do know is that this team has significant holes, mostly everywhere, and the main reason Reese is not here is because his roster construction via the draft was dreadful. I have long felt that the new regime would focus more on rebuilding/retooling the roster, by getting as many picks as possible, and trying to fortify the roster from a talent/depth standpoint. Some believe drafting the QB at #2 is the path there. Guess we'll see

It's not psychoanalysis, it's just logic. The praise would only have any predictive/directional value if there was an alternative. I said this on another thread about Webb, but it's also true about Eli:

1) if they do believe in Eli's ability to play for a couple more years, it makes sense to say so (i.e., there's nothing to be gained by hiding that intention)

2) if they are unsure about whether Eli can continue to play at a decent level going forward and are strongly considering the QB options in the draft, it makes no sense to reveal that (i.e., their best course of action is to conceal their intentions, including a vote of confidence in Eli)

There are a handful of other scenarios as well, but in none of them does it make sense to do anything other than heap praise on Eli (and Webb, by logical extension). Because there is no situation in which you could reasonably expect Gettleman or Shurmur to say anything but what they have said, there is nothing to be inferred from it.

Anyone who reads into DG's or PS's comments on the current QBs does so at the risk of their own confirmation bias.
The Giants  
mdthedream : 3/10/2018 9:20 am : link
good add picks and get a boat load just dropping a couple picks. They still might get the QB they like at said 4 or 5. No reason to go that far back. Eli has 2 years at best left so he is not a issue in the decision. I have no problem trying to win this year and taking a QB of the future at 4 or 5. We are not going to be this high for a long time I think anyway.
Itís a myth that this is the only time ever to get a quality replaceme  
Bill L : 3/10/2018 9:34 am : link
For the future as a QB. And a big assumption that the ďqualityĒ replacement is there this year. Itís a good fall-back depending on what the Browns do this year, but at #2 we should get the best talent value. Unless the talent differential is so small that the positional difference compensates (which, depending on what the Browns do at #1, it is not).
The Eagles made a similar move 2 years ago  
AcesUp : 3/10/2018 11:23 am : link
They acquired extra picks through trading Bradford. Then they jumped up to around the 9th pick a couple weeks before the draft, before trading up again to the 2nd pick. So there is a precedent there, I wouldn't completely dismiss it. I think they have the 2nd most draft capital behind the Browns if you look at the draft chart. It would take some creativity on their part as I don't think the Giants would want to trade back that far, but I would be them just behind the Browns, Jets and Broncos as likely trade partners.
RE: The Eagles made a similar move 2 years ago  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/10/2018 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13857523 AcesUp said:
Quote:
They acquired extra picks through trading Bradford. Then they jumped up to around the 9th pick a couple weeks before the draft, before trading up again to the 2nd pick. So there is a precedent there, I wouldn't completely dismiss it. I think they have the 2nd most draft capital behind the Browns if you look at the draft chart. It would take some creativity on their part as I don't think the Giants would want to trade back that far, but I would be them just behind the Browns, Jets and Broncos as likely trade partners.

The Eagles didn't trade Bradford until AFTER they had drafted Wentz (when Bridgewater got injured with Minnesota). If I'm not mistaken, the Eagles first move was a swap with Miami, where they sent the Dolphins Byron Maxwell and Kiko Alonso along with the 13th overall pick in exchange for the 8th overall pick. The Eagles then jumped to #2 from #8.

So keep in mind, the Eagles were starting with a pick (#13) that is significantly higher than the Bills' earliest pick, and the Eagles were able to make their first move without sacrificing any draft capital - they used players instead. That allowed them to have the ammunition to go up to #2.

The Bills would likely have to gut their own draft capital this year and next to get up into the top 3 picks, and even considering it as two separate trades might be a lot, because they'd really have to give up a lot to get to, say #7 or #8, so what would they have left in order to get to #2 (or #3 or #4 or whatever)?

I think they're more likely to take a shot on draft day at moving up if a QB starts to slide into the early teens and if there is a team whose primary target came off ahead of them. Other than that, I think the idea of Buffalo moving up dramatically is pure fiction.
Gatorade  
AcesUp : 3/10/2018 12:57 pm : link
You're right. I was going off memory, but they still have the juice to make that move. Like I said, the Bills have the 2nd most draft capital in the draft, they'd have to be aggressive, but they certainly have the ammunition to do it. Using the chart and ignoring what the Giants want, they could move up to #2 and still keep a 3rd round pick without touching a draft pick next year (which most teams do). Realistically, it would require two trades to get up to #2 but it's within the realm of possibility.
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