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NFT: Better player Derek Jeter or Ichiro Suzuki?

JoeyBigBlue : 3/10/2018 4:05 pm
Iím having a debate on one of my Facebook groups on who the player was in their prime. Iím saying Jeter, and people are saying that Iím a Yankee homer. Ichiro was a great player, but he was a singles hitter. He only had 5 season with an over 800 OPS. Jeter also walked a ton more. Need your help here.
Easily Jeter  
Greg from LI : 3/10/2018 4:08 pm : link
.
Jeter  
RasputinPrime : 3/10/2018 4:16 pm : link
but not by a wide margin. You factor in what Ichiro did in Japan and he is one of the best hitters in baseball history. Jeter gets the bump for leadership and a better overall game.
Jeter is like Eli  
SHO'NUFF : 3/10/2018 4:52 pm : link
Suzuki is like Rivers
Would you rather have  
SHO'NUFF : 3/10/2018 4:52 pm : link
Eli or Rivers?
Based solely on MLB careers  
pjcas18 : 3/10/2018 4:56 pm : link
you have to give the nod to Jeter, but if Ichiro played his entire career in MLB there is little doubt he would have had a better career than Jeter (individually).

offensively they're similar, maybe even give Jeter a slight edge - good debate, but defensively Ichiro was better, and Ichiro was a better baserunner.

If Ichiro played his whole career in MLB he might have broken a ton of records, but he didn't so if you just evaluate MLB careers it's Jeter.

but I do kind of think Ichiro was a better all around player, though hard to defend it with just his MLB career.

RE: Jeter is like Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/10/2018 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Suzuki is like Rivers

That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.
Jeter by a good amount  
arniefez : 3/10/2018 5:02 pm : link
But Ichiro is a HOFer too. Not enough power from Ichiro in a power position. Ichiro was a world class RF. Jeter was a very good SS until he got older but not world class. If Ichiro played his entire career in MLB he might have more of an argument.

OPS+ Jeter 115 Ichiro 107
WAR Jeter 72 Ichiro 60

Jeter as a SS has Ichiro a RF beat in pretty much every offensive stat. Ichiro was the better defender but Jeter was good enough until he got older.
Ichiro was a faster base runner  
arniefez : 3/10/2018 5:06 pm : link
he was not a better base runner. No one who ever played in MLB was a better base runner than Jeter. He was a flawless base runner and believe me I'm no Jeter homer.

I also don't agree that if Ichiro played his entire career in MLB he'd have a big advantage over Jeter offensively. Jeter hit 260 HR's. Ichiro hit 117. Ichiro in his best days had no power at all. I loved watching him play but he wasn't Jeter.
RE: RE: Jeter is like Eli  
SHO'NUFF : 3/10/2018 5:20 pm : link
In comment 13857987 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


Suzuki is like Rivers


That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.


I thought I was being kind to Jeter.
RE: Jeter is like Eli  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/10/2018 5:39 pm : link
In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Suzuki is like Rivers



Iím not seeing the comparison at all.
RE: Ichiro was a faster base runner  
gtt350 : 3/10/2018 5:50 pm : link
In comment 13858006 arniefez said:
Quote:
he was not a better base runner. No one who ever played in MLB was a better base runner than Jeter. He was a flawless base runner and believe me I'm no Jeter homer.

I also don't agree that if Ichiro played his entire career in MLB he'd have a big advantage over Jeter offensively. Jeter hit 260 HR's. Ichiro hit 117. Ichiro in his best days had no power at all. I loved watching him play but he wasn't Jeter.


Really!!!! Willie Mays, Ricky Henderson,Maury Wills even Jose Reyes in his prime
Base RUNNER  
arniefez : 3/10/2018 6:00 pm : link
BASE runner. Not base stealer. I never said Jeter was a better base runner than Willie Mays. I said no one was better and they weren't. No one was better than Willie Mays either. Rickey? maybe in that class. Rickey was certainly the best stealer I ever saw. Not the same thing though. I didn't pay enough attention to Maury Wills to have an opinion.
For as big of a Jeter fan that I am/was  
UConn4523 : 3/10/2018 6:08 pm : link
I equally loved Ichiro. I really wish he played for a better franchise, but even rotting in Seattle his career was stellar.
I wasn't taking base s=tealers i was talking heads up bas runners  
gtt350 : 3/10/2018 6:10 pm : link
Jose Reyes and Mays could always take the extra base, challenge outfielders
hell mays even stole home and caused balks.
RE: RE: RE: Jeter is like Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/10/2018 6:13 pm : link
In comment 13858034 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
In comment 13857987 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


Suzuki is like Rivers


That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.



I thought I was being kind to Jeter.

Let's see... you compared:

Player A) 5x WS/SB champion, 7x league/conference champ, 14x All-Star, Rookie of the Year, reached playoffs 16x in 19 seasons

Player B) 2x WS/SB champion, 2x league/conference champ, 4x All-Star, reached playoffs 6x in 14 seasons


And you thought you were being kind to Player A by comparing him to Player B?
What ever happened to stealing home?  
Del Shofner : 3/10/2018 6:14 pm : link
An art lost in today's game, I guess. Was there even one steal of home in MLB last season?
How is this a debate?  
Steve L : 3/10/2018 6:15 pm : link
Jeter all the way. I mean come on?!?
If you take emotion out of it  
pjcas18 : 3/10/2018 6:25 pm : link
just like imagine if you has asked this question on a Japanese web site, the WAR graphic tells a decent story.

Jeter has a 12 WAR advantage and Ichiro didn't play in MLB until he was 27.

If Ichiro played his entire career in MLB it's almost guaranteed he's the higher WAR player.

If you believe WAR is the best way to evaluate best my initial post is spot-on.

forgetting for a minute that Jeter is the best baserunner in the history of baseball (LOL).
The Captain?  
Giant John : 3/10/2018 6:52 pm : link
Is this a serious question or some kind of joke?
They're different players and hard to compare.  
Ira : 3/10/2018 6:57 pm : link
Jeter had more power and walked a little more. Ichiro was faster and a better defensive player. Both had very long careers - especially Ichiro.
Jeter  
Mr. Nickels : 3/10/2018 7:01 pm : link
...
RE: What ever happened to stealing home?  
StingerProf : 3/10/2018 7:06 pm : link
In comment 13858096 Del Shofner said:
Quote:
An art lost in today's game, I guess. Was there even one steal of home in MLB last season?


Ellsbury did it last year, I believe. If not, the year before.

As much as I love Jeter I feel Ichiro is getting undervalued here. Guy was IMPOSSIBLE to get out for a good 5 year stretch and he played incredible defense. Definitely two of the greatest of that generation though. What a treat to grow up having watched those guys.
One was a run producer at SS  
djm : 3/10/2018 9:27 pm : link
The other was a RFer. Thatís a huge distinction.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jeter is like Eli  
SHO'NUFF : 3/10/2018 9:30 pm : link
In comment 13858093 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13858034 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


In comment 13857987 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


Suzuki is like Rivers


That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.



I thought I was being kind to Jeter.


Let's see... you compared:

Player A) 5x WS/SB champion, 7x league/conference champ, 14x All-Star, Rookie of the Year, reached playoffs 16x in 19 seasons

Player B) 2x WS/SB champion, 2x league/conference champ, 4x All-Star, reached playoffs 6x in 14 seasons

And you thought you were being kind to Player A by comparing him to Player B?


Football is a lot tougher and should be graded on a curve. But I'll give Jeter the nod for slaying all that pootang.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/10/2018 9:58 pm : link
Ichro was such a unique and exciting player in his prime - guy led the league in hits 7 times. He was a machine. Perennial gold glover in his prime. Little power but stole a ton of bags.

I think if Ichro had started his career here, it would be him. Just look what he did his first year in MLB. Guy hit .350, stole 56 bases, led the league in hits, won the MVP, ROY and was a gold glover.

But if we're going by MLB careers only, I'd say Jeter. He had an incredible run. 20 fucking years and the guy was a career .310 hitter.

It's actually closer than people probably think, IMO - but yeah, I'd say Jeter.
Jeter  
MetsAreBack : 3/10/2018 10:23 pm : link
But only because he played a scarcer position in SS than being a corner OF

I'll pile on that I don't understand the Eli and rivers analogy at all. It's strikingly incompetent actually.
Depends...  
Sarcastic Sam : 3/10/2018 10:31 pm : link
Jeter - better baseball player
Suzuki - better violin player
Ichiro was the better  
madgiantscow009 : 3/11/2018 12:51 am : link
baseball player.
Ichiro was the better hitter  
Beer Man : 3/11/2018 8:06 am : link
Probably one of the best in MLB history. But his teams never won a World Series. Jeter was a team leader, a better clutch hitter, and was a big reason his team won five World Series. I'll take the five WS rings any day over the guy with batting titles.
Jeter  
Dragon : 3/11/2018 8:41 am : link
To Eli no comparison Eli has played the years but in production and clutch performance and leadership for that number of years Eli comes up way short.
Jeter or Ichiro  
Dragon : 3/11/2018 8:47 am : link
Itís not close Iciro great hitter but he did not make his players better the way Jeter did. Jeter did not make big noise as a leader but his players always knew who was their leader on and off the field.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jeter is like Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/11/2018 8:51 am : link
In comment 13858262 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
In comment 13858093 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13858034 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


In comment 13857987 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


Suzuki is like Rivers


That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.



I thought I was being kind to Jeter.


Let's see... you compared:

Player A) 5x WS/SB champion, 7x league/conference champ, 14x All-Star, Rookie of the Year, reached playoffs 16x in 19 seasons

Player B) 2x WS/SB champion, 2x league/conference champ, 4x All-Star, reached playoffs 6x in 14 seasons

And you thought you were being kind to Player A by comparing him to Player B?



Football is a lot tougher and should be graded on a curve. But I'll give Jeter the nod for slaying all that pootang.

If baseball is easier, it's also easier for Jeter's opponents. If football is tougher, it's also tougher for Eli's opponents. There is no curve. It was a sh*tty analogy.
Um  
djm : 3/11/2018 11:20 am : link
Ichiro 355 obp 759 ops
Jeter 377 obp 817 ops

Itís not even close guys. If you had to choose one player to build around you take Jeter every single time without a momentís hesitation.

RE: Um  
pjcas18 : 3/11/2018 11:26 am : link
In comment 13858528 djm said:
Quote:
Ichiro 355 obp 759 ops
Jeter 377 obp 817 ops

Itís not even close guys. If you had to choose one player to build around you take Jeter every single time without a momentís hesitation.


So the whole WAR formula is heresy and OBP/OPS are the true measure of a baseball players value.

if the OP intent was to validate their assumption then posting this question on a NY Giants fan where the majority of people are Yankees fans then mission accomplished, but if you want unbiased opinions, probably not the place.

Maybe check the Seattle Seahawks message board and see what their fans think as sort of an equal validation.

RE: RE: Um  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/11/2018 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13858542 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13858528 djm said:


Quote:


Ichiro 355 obp 759 ops
Jeter 377 obp 817 ops

Itís not even close guys. If you had to choose one player to build around you take Jeter every single time without a momentís hesitation.




So the whole WAR formula is heresy and OBP/OPS are the true measure of a baseball players value.

if the OP intent was to validate their assumption then posting this question on a NY Giants fan where the majority of people are Yankees fans then mission accomplished, but if you want unbiased opinions, probably not the place.

Maybe check the Seattle Seahawks message board and see what their fans think as sort of an equal validation.


I wasnít looking for validation at all. People say Jeterís overrated all the time and thatís fine. But people need to realize that Ichiro wasnít as good as people make it seem. 83% of his hits were singles. He also didnít walk much at all. And for all his speed, he didnít score as many runs as he should have.
That's why the baseball  
pjcas18 : 3/11/2018 2:34 pm : link
analysts and statisticians created WAR. It's supposed to be the one statistic that articulates a players overall value.

So either you believe WAR is the best way to evaluate/compare two players or you don't.

if you don't explain why, but if you don't you're left with 100% subjective non-quantifiable opinionated intangibles like "Jeter made players around him better" or "he's the best base runner in MLB history".

If you allow WAR to handle the evaluation you're back to my original post.

Jeter was the better MLB overall player, but when you consider Ichiro made his MLB debut at 27 after playing in Japan he probably would have wound up better than Jeter.

Those are the unemotional, unbiased facts.

If you stick to their MLB careers, Jeter gets the nod, if you look at total professional careers, you can certainly make a case for Ichiro, everything else is opinion, bias, and noise.
RE: RE: Um  
djm : 3/11/2018 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13858542 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13858528 djm said:


Quote:


Ichiro 355 obp 759 ops
Jeter 377 obp 817 ops

Itís not even close guys. If you had to choose one player to build around you take Jeter every single time without a momentís hesitation.




So the whole WAR formula is heresy and OBP/OPS are the true measure of a baseball players value.

if the OP intent was to validate their assumption then posting this question on a NY Giants fan where the majority of people are Yankees fans then mission accomplished, but if you want unbiased opinions, probably not the place.

Maybe check the Seattle Seahawks message board and see what their fans think as sort of an equal validation.


Jeter got on base more frequently. Nearly double the amount of rbis. And more than double the hrs. And he played SHORTSTOP while Ichiro played a sluggerís position in right field.

Itís not even close. I donít care what a Seattle fan would say. Not even close.
Jeter ó 500 more runs scored  
djm : 3/11/2018 3:24 pm : link
Ok fine give ichiro a few more prime years. Jeter is still the more valuable player.

Some say heís Overrated? Name me the shortstops that had better overall careers?

Jeter will he remembered as one of the best shortstops to ever play the game. I donít mean defensively I mean overall. The guy had as close to a perfect career as possible.
WAR is WAR  
pjcas18 : 3/11/2018 3:34 pm : link
I suggest you look it up and see the intent, it's position neutral, park neutral, etc.

it's widely accepted as a player's value.

either you accept WAR is the measure of a player's value or you don't, it sounds like you don't.

In which case you are left with your opinion which is fine, but recognize it as an opinion.
RE: That's why the baseball  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/11/2018 3:38 pm : link
In comment 13858850 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
analysts and statisticians created WAR. It's supposed to be the one statistic that articulates a players overall value.

So either you believe WAR is the best way to evaluate/compare two players or you don't.

if you don't explain why, but if you don't you're left with 100% subjective non-quantifiable opinionated intangibles like "Jeter made players around him better" or "he's the best base runner in MLB history".

If you allow WAR to handle the evaluation you're back to my original post.

Jeter was the better MLB overall player, but when you consider Ichiro made his MLB debut at 27 after playing in Japan he probably would have wound up better than Jeter.

Those are the unemotional, unbiased facts.

If you stick to their MLB careers, Jeter gets the nod, if you look at total professional careers, you can certainly make a case for Ichiro, everything else is opinion, bias, and noise.



Thatís a fair point. Thanks for the input.
WAR is not the end of a discussion of player value  
arniefez : 3/11/2018 3:51 pm : link
Only a fool would suggest a RF who 117 Home Runs is more valuable than a SS who hit 260 HR's. The SS had a higher OBP & OPS+ as well.

Here's what Bill James had to say about WAR last year:

Quote:
I am not saying that WAR is a bad statistic or a useless statistic, but it is not a perfect statistic, and in this particular case it is just dead wrong. It is dead wrong because the creators of that statistic have severed the connection between performance statistics and wins, thus undermining their analysis.

Putting WAR in Context: A Response to Bill James - ( New Window )
RE: WAR is WAR  
djm : 3/11/2018 3:51 pm : link
In comment 13858929 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
I suggest you look it up and see the intent, it's position neutral, park neutral, etc.

it's widely accepted as a player's value.

either you accept WAR is the measure of a player's value or you don't, it sounds like you don't.

In which case you are left with your opinion which is fine, but recognize it as an opinion.


Position neutral is exactly why I canít take war too seriously. Itís a useful metric but not the end all be all.

Who was a better player? Amani Toomer or Rob Gronkowski? After all, Toomer caught more balls for more yards in his career....

Position plays a huge part in these things...
RE: WAR is WAR  
djm : 3/11/2018 3:53 pm : link
In comment 13858929 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
I suggest you look it up and see the intent, it's position neutral, park neutral, etc.

it's widely accepted as a player's value.

either you accept WAR is the measure of a player's value or you don't, it sounds like you don't.

In which case you are left with your opinion which is fine, but recognize it as an opinion.


Iíd be willing to bet that if you asked ten GMs who they take they all say Jeter. He put up better numbers from a tougher position.
Jeter got on base more AND hit for more power  
Greg from LI : 3/11/2018 5:51 pm : link
This isn't even close. Ichiro was a fantastic contact hitter and a terrific outfielder, but Jeter was easily the better overall player.
RE: RE: WAR is WAR  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/11/2018 10:25 pm : link
In comment 13858950 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13858929 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


I suggest you look it up and see the intent, it's position neutral, park neutral, etc.

it's widely accepted as a player's value.

either you accept WAR is the measure of a player's value or you don't, it sounds like you don't.

In which case you are left with your opinion which is fine, but recognize it as an opinion.



Position neutral is exactly why I canít take war too seriously. Itís a useful metric but not the end all be all.

Who was a better player? Amani Toomer or Rob Gronkowski? After all, Toomer caught more balls for more yards in his career....

Position plays a huge part in these things...

It sounds like you're confusing position-neutral with position-agnostic.
RE: One was a run producer at SS  
WideRight : 3/12/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 13858260 djm said:
Quote:
The other was a RFer. Thatís a huge distinction.


This is it

You could get Suzuki's production in RF far more easily than Jeter's at SS. So if you want to build a team, take Jeter every time
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