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Warming to J. Allen in Draft?

lugnut : 3/11/2018 9:52 am
I'm wondering now if maybe I wouldn't throw the remote if Giants take QB Allen at #2? He might have the highest ceiling of any of the QBs. And maybe the big factor is IF Shurmur really is the QB Whisperer...I know the flaws and doubts, but if you're equipped to deal, aren't you "supposed" to take the QB with the greatest potential?
Remote throw here  
RobCarpenter : 3/11/2018 9:54 am : link
Just do not like his decision making as a QB.
Darnold, Rosen, or Allen  
EddieNYG : 3/11/2018 9:56 am : link
I'd be happy with either one.

As far as Allen goes, his arm strength and mobility is really appealing to me. His arm in the winds of the Meadowlands can be a plus.

Meaning  
RobCarpenter : 3/11/2018 9:57 am : link
He looks for the big play instead of reading the D pre snap to identify the better option.
Hard to see given the quality of the competition  
BillT : 3/11/2018 9:58 am : link
Maybe if it were a 1 or 2 QB draft. But with at least 3 other QBs who have all the tools and much better college resumes why would you take a flyer on Allen. He's a classic "combine fast riser".
I don't see the point with him  
Dave on the UWS : 3/11/2018 10:02 am : link
We already have D. Webb in house. They seem to have the same positives and negatives, are virtually the same size, mobility and strong armed. Unless that is their template, I can't see the point of taking him. Good kid though.
Your remote is safe there's almost not chance....  
GFAN52 : 3/11/2018 10:04 am : link
he's selected in the top 4.
He would not be my choice at 1st QB taken......  
George from PA : 3/11/2018 10:08 am : link
Highest ceiling.....and lowest floor.


Darnold
Rosen
Mayfield
Allen
RE: Your remote is safe there's almost not chance....  
allstarjim : 3/11/2018 10:12 am : link
In comment 13858444 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
he's selected in the top 4.


Says who? I believe there is about a 90% chance he is drafted in the top 4
Having the strongest arm and being the best athlete....  
Milton : 3/11/2018 10:18 am : link
...doesn't automatically mean he has the highest ceiling of the top QBs in the draft. If that's all there was to it, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Joe Montana wouldn't be the three QBs with the strongest case for greatest of the modern era.
p.s.--Pat Shurmur is not a magician. I'm guessing the QB he would most like to coach is the one he gets to teach Calculus, not the one who still needs to learn Algebra.
I am now beginning to think  
DonnieD89 : 3/11/2018 10:23 am : link
it's either Darnold or Allen for Cleveland's choice for QB after the Tyrod Taylor deal. Both are mobile like Taylor and have the highest upside. I think the Mayfield talk to Cleveland is a smoke screen. As to when they go is another story. I think it is more difficult to say who the Giants are more interested in when it comes to the QBs.
I'm intrigued by the idea of drafting Allen. I get the concerns, but  
Vincenzo : 3/11/2018 10:45 am : link
our situation is pretty ideal to develop a guy like him. We have talked about the positives and negatives to Allen non-stop over the past few months, but here are some of the factors outside of his on-field ability that I like about drafting him.

1. We just hired one of the top QB coaches and developers in the league. If Allen has the goods, Shurmur is one of the better options to have in terms of molding him. Gettleman may be interested in a guy like Allen after having Cam Newton for all those years in Carolina. They have some similarities to their games.

2. Eli can start for the next 1 or 2 seasons while the Giants develop Allen. Eli is so important to this franchise and the fan base. I would love to see his career end in a smooth way. He's the perfect mentor and can hand the reigns over to Allen in 2020. It's unlikely to happen this smoothly, but I'd prefer this to Eli getting replaced mid-season and never playing for the Giants again.

3. I can picture this guy wearing blue on Sundays. He is big and strong. He's got humble beginnings and he seems to put out a calm and composed demeanor when dealing with the media. Watching his highlights, I think there is a little bit of fire inside of him too. I think if he succeeds at the next level, he will be the most likable of this crop of QB prospects.

Ultimately, I want the QB who will help lead this franchise for the next decade, whoever that may be. But these are just a few of the small variables that won't have me throwing the remote if we decide to draft him.
RE: Having the strongest arm and being the best athlete....  
chuckydee9 : 3/11/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 13858454 Milton said:
Quote:
...doesn't automatically mean he has the highest ceiling of the top QBs in the draft. If that's all there was to it, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Joe Montana wouldn't be the three QBs with the strongest case for greatest of the modern era.
p.s.--Pat Shurmur is not a magician. I'm guessing the QB he would most like to coach is the one he gets to teach Calculus, not the one who still needs to learn Algebra.


+1 no Coach can teach accuracy enough to make a massive improvement.. I don't see the cieling being higher for Allen vs Rosen.. Josh's tape is pretty bad and you can't simply say because he looked good in shorts without defense out there that he has the skills.. the only skills he has is throwing far and fast.. thats not a QB.. a QB is a passer not a thrower..
I Prefer Rosen and Darnold in That Order...  
Jim in Tampa : 3/11/2018 10:54 am : link
With Allen a distant third. But I'll trust the Giants to select the right QB. If they think that Allen is the best QB on the board at 2 I'll still be thrilled with the pick, because it means that the Giants believe that he's the guy.

It would be incredibly foolish and arrogant of me to assume that I knew more that Gettleman, Shurmur and Shula about who was the best (remaining) QB at 2...just because I prefer Rosen.

It would however be "throw the remote time" for me if the Giants decided to pass on a QB for another position at 2, because I feel that they would be building for the short term and not looking out for the team's best long-term interest.

But as far as WHICH QB would be the best choice, I'm more than content to leave that to the QB evaluation experts on the Giants, who have access to game tape, interviews, Wonderlic scores, scouting reports and medicals that I'll never have.

The I like the idea of drafting Allen  
Mike from Ohio : 3/11/2018 11:03 am : link
and if the Giants do, it means Shurmur and Shula don't believe he is a project, but just a guy who needs some seasoning, which he can get for a year or two behind Eli. Obviously his accuracy worries me some, but Shurmur and Shula have likely spent a ton of time watching tape in him, so if they take him at #2 it means they don't view him as a true project.

He has the highest ceiling of the QBs in this draft, but also the lowest floor. I don't expect he will be the pick, but I will be pretty happy if he is.
RE: The I like the idea of drafting Allen  
DonnieD89 : 3/11/2018 11:12 am : link
In comment 13858499 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
and if the Giants do, it means Shurmur and Shula don't believe he is a project, but just a guy who needs some seasoning, which he can get for a year or two behind Eli. Obviously his accuracy worries me some, but Shurmur and Shula have likely spent a ton of time watching tape in him, so if they take him at #2 it means they don't view him as a true project.

He has the highest ceiling of the QBs in this draft, but also the lowest floor. I don't expect he will be the pick, but I will be pretty happy if he is.


I agree. That is the same perception I will take if the Giants select Allen at #2. I just don't think he is the #1 choice amongst the Giants staff, regarding QBs.
If Allen makes it...  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 3/11/2018 11:18 am : link
he is the next John Elway. Similar cannon of an arm and athleticism. Similar college experience (running for their lives most of the time). I have to agree with those who say that they trust the Giants QB gurus to pick the best QB available to them. I will not be unhappy if we pick Allen.

On another note, I am bemused by those who talk about Darnold as an athletic QB when Rosen was his equal or better at the combine, and Darnold chose not to throw because he would look inferior in terms of arm talent to Rosen, Allen and maybe Mayfield. I am not sold on Darnold. But, again, I have to trust Shurmur, DG and Shula to get it right.
I've Posted This Before So Forgive Me For Repeating Myself...  
Jim in Tampa : 3/11/2018 11:21 am : link
But a talking head on ESPN who was a former NFL front office guy (can't remember which one) attributed this quote to noted QB guru Gruden...

"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."

Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.

If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.
I think Allen = Webb  
mrvax : 3/11/2018 11:23 am : link
also. Round 2, 3.
Rather Rosen or Dave Te's guy, Kyle Lauletta in the second.
RE: I've Posted This Before So Forgive Me For Repeating Myself...  
Milton : 3/11/2018 11:25 am : link
In comment 13858529 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
But a talking head on ESPN who was a former NFL front office guy (can't remember which one) attributed this quote to noted QB guru Gruden...

"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."

Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.

If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.
What if his top 15 plays are all broken plays?
RE: I think Allen = Webb  
Mike from Ohio : 3/11/2018 11:29 am : link
In comment 13858536 mrvax said:
Quote:
also. Round 2, 3.
Rather Rosen or Dave Te's guy, Kyle Lauletta in the second.


I don't get the Allen v Webb comparison at all. Allen is so much more physically gifted than Webb it is silly. If you think they are similar in arm strength or mobility, I'd only say that there are not likely many people who would agree with you.
RE: RE: I've Posted This Before So Forgive Me For Repeating Myself...  
Jim in Tampa : 3/11/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 13858541 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13858529 Jim in Tampa said:


Quote:


But a talking head on ESPN who was a former NFL front office guy (can't remember which one) attributed this quote to noted QB guru Gruden...

"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."

Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.

If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.

What if his top 15 plays are all broken plays?


Not sure what you define as a "broken play" or for that matter what your point is...

But if you're defining a broken play as one where the WRs weren't initially open and Allen scrambled around for a while until coverage broke down and then threw the ball downfield for a 60 yrd TD...I would think most teams would view that as a great accomplishment by a QB.

And if he did it 15 times...even better!
Warming to Allen? I'm not, but  
81_Great_Dane : 3/11/2018 11:42 am : link
I'm just some guy on his couch. DG and his team are pros. So I'm not a remote-thrower. Though sometimes I'm an eye-roller.

Here's why I'll be surprised if DG drafts Allen:

1) It's Gettelman's very first pick as GM of the Giants. Allen is a huge gamble. Too huge a gamble for a new GM's very first pick, I think. If Allen busts, DG's whole regime starts under a cloud that will linger for years. Though the flip side is, if Allen turns into a star, DG's a hero.

2) The team needs immediate help. Nobody seems to think Allen would get on the field in 2018. How often is the #2 pick in the draft unable to contribute as a rookie? Sure, there are "project" QBs. At #2 overall? People point to Aaron Rodgers as an example of a guy who sat for years and learned and turned into a star, but he wasn't a top-10 pick. QBs picked that high almost always play as rookies, whether they're really ready or not.

I think if the Giants don't trade down, and take a QB, it's not Allen. I also think if they take a QB, they're going to take someone who can get on the field in 2018 and start climbing the learning curve. If you're going to sit a guy for years, you don't pick him at #2.

Also, looking at the current tear-down underway, if the Giants draft a QB I would not be surprised if the Giants and Eli part ways. Eli's not interested in being a "bridge QB" or a "mentor." If it's Darnold or Rosen, they might as well get the kid on the field. It would have to be handled very, very differently from the (botched) end of the streak, but that's do-able. Peyton left the Colts, Montana left the Niners. It happens.
And Speaking of QBs and Broken Plays...  
Jim in Tampa : 3/11/2018 11:43 am : link
I think most people would agree that the defining play of Eli's career (to date) was the "broken play" in the Super Bowl, where he escaped the rush and threw the "helmet catch" ball to Tyree.

It would be great to see more broken plays like that.
RE: And Speaking of QBs and Broken Plays...  
Milton : 3/11/2018 11:57 am : link
In comment 13858574 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
I think most people would agree that the defining play of Eli's career (to date) was the "broken play" in the Super Bowl, where he escaped the rush and threw the "helmet catch" ball to Tyree.

It would be great to see more broken plays like that.
You can call that "defining" if you like, but it was more like his luckiest play than his greatest. His greatest was in the 2011 Super Bowl when he threw a perfectly placed ball 40+ yards downfield to Manningham.
RE: RE: RE: I've Posted This Before So Forgive Me For Repeating Myself...  
Milton : 3/11/2018 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13858559 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:

Not sure what you define as a "broken play" or for that matter what your point is...
I want a QB who is at his best delivering on the play as it is designed, a QB with the smarts and toughness to go through all his progressions before he bolts the pocket and shows off his improvisational skills. As Bill Parcells once said re: Jeff Hostetler, "I don't want to be known as a guy who coaches broken plays."
Milton  
Mike from Ohio : 3/11/2018 12:11 pm : link
You are biased towards Rosen, we all know that. But it is silly to discount a player who can make something out of nothing (a broken play). Most of the great ones have that skill. Most NFL QBs can complete passes when given a clean pocket and an open receiver. The great ones go beyond that.
RE: Milton  
Milton : 3/11/2018 12:16 pm : link
In comment 13858609 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
You are biased towards Rosen, we all know that. But it is silly to discount a player who can make something out of nothing (a broken play). Most of the great ones have that skill. Most NFL QBs can complete passes when given a clean pocket and an open receiver. The great ones go beyond that.
I wasn't discounting, but what's silly is to base your opinion on a QB on his 15 best plays, especially if it's a QB who is at his best on broken plays.
p.s.--The great ones don't need a clean pocket and an open receiver in order for them to complete the play as it is designed. It's the mediocre QB who gives up on the designed play if the pocket isn't clean and there isn't a wide open receiver.
RE: RE: Milton  
Mike from Ohio : 3/11/2018 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13858619 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13858609 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


You are biased towards Rosen, we all know that. But it is silly to discount a player who can make something out of nothing (a broken play). Most of the great ones have that skill. Most NFL QBs can complete passes when given a clean pocket and an open receiver. The great ones go beyond that.

I wasn't discounting, but what's silly is to base your opinion on a QB on his 15 best plays, especially if it's a QB who is at his best on broken plays.
p.s.--The great ones don't need a clean pocket and an open receiver in order for them to complete the play as it is designed. It's the mediocre QB who gives up on the designed play if the pocket isn't clean and there isn't a wide open receiver.


There are plenty of highlight plays of Allen throwing on time from a clean pocket, just as there are plenty of highlights of him misfiring with a clean pocket. The same exists for Rosen and every other QB in his draft. The Gruden quote was to point out how to evaluate a guy's ceiling. Clearly if he can't throw from the pocket on time, he isn't getting drafted, let alone being a first rounder.

Rosen may very well be the best QB in this draft, but your dismissal of every other QB and your blind praise of Rosen - who also has plenty of flaws himself - makes it hard to take what you say seriously.
Allen is a Round 3/4 pick parading itself as a Top-5 right now  
GiantsAlwaysAndForever : 3/11/2018 12:25 pm : link
And I can't figure out why.

QBs don't magically fix their flaws at the next level.In 2017, Allen had just four games where he threw for more than two touchdown passes and they came against teams with a combined 9-37 record -- Texas State, New Mexico, Central Michigan, and Gardner-Webb. If you remove those four games against absolutely inferior competition, Allen completed just 53.3 percent of his pass attempts for 877 yards with four touchdowns and six interceptions in seven games. He averaged just 125 passing yards per game against these teams. If you decide to include those four games, the most yards he passed for in any single game was 208.

RE: RE: RE: Milton  
Milton : 3/11/2018 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13858623 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:

There are plenty of highlight plays of Allen throwing on time from a clean pocket
I didn't say there wasn't. My criticism was of the Gruden quote, which I thought was a silly basis for grading a QB in comparison to his peers. It could've been any QB that had 15 great plays of him scrambling around making something out of nothing.

Quote:
Rosen may very well be the best QB in this draft, but your dismissal of every other QB and your blind praise of Rosen - who also has plenty of flaws himself - makes it hard to take what you say seriously.
I didn't even mention Rosen. And I don't dismiss every other QB, although I'm souring on Darnold, which is a bummer, and Allen just requires too much projecting of what he could be compared to what he currently is (but I'm not a professional scout). As for Mayfield, I like him as a QB, but I wish he didn't have a chip on his shoulder the size of Texas.
p.s.--You should take what I say seriously or not based on the substance of what I'm saying (without trying to read into it any further than that).
Milton  
Mike from Ohio : 3/11/2018 12:59 pm : link
What everyone is expressing on this board is opinion. Your views of Rosen are an opinion. My view on every QB is an opinion. You can't read someone's opinion without considering biases they may have, and while you didn't mention Rosen in this thread, you have to admit you have been all over this board hyping Rosen.

There is nothing wrong with loving one prospect more than the others, but truthfully it does discount your opinion to some degree.
I wouldn't throw the remote  
Jay on the Island : 3/11/2018 1:40 pm : link
but he isn't my top choice. I would actually prefer Rosen, Darnold, or Mayfield over Allen. If the Giants did select Allen I wouldn't hate it as it would probably mean that Shurmur believes that Allen's accuracy issues can be fixed.
RE: Milton  
Milton : 3/11/2018 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13858682 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with loving one prospect more than the others, but truthfully it does discount your opinion to some degree.
I don't want to argue a point that will ultimately get reduced to semantics, but I'll grant you this: you won't see me being the first to point out Rosen's negatives (or what could be perceived as negatives, such as the fact that he is gluten-free and his father was a whistleblower).
RE: RE: Your remote is safe there's almost not chance....  
GFAN52 : 3/11/2018 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13858450 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13858444 GFAN52 said:


Quote:


he's selected in the top 4.



Says who? I believe there is about a 90% chance he is drafted in the top 4


I'd love to take that bet.
A bunch of teams went to look  
NikkiMac : 3/11/2018 1:56 pm : link
At the QB from Princeton Giants scouts were on hand supposedly this kid aced it and threw well while that noríeaster was going on say Giants came away impressed ..... Got me thinking back to 79 when they drafted Phil Simms and never forget that draft not many people had heard of Simms out of Moorehead state even Pete Rozelle laughed as he made the selection ....Me and my father were like Phill who ? ....... Anybody know anything about this kid from Princeton maybe Sy 56 could tell us something.......
RE: A bunch of teams went to look  
GFAN52 : 3/11/2018 2:00 pm : link
In comment 13858781 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
At the QB from Princeton Giants scouts were on hand supposedly this kid aced it and threw well while that noríeaster was going on say Giants came away impressed ..... Got me thinking back to 79 when they drafted Phil Simms and never forget that draft not many people had heard of Simms out of Moorehead state even Pete Rozelle laughed as he made the selection ....Me and my father were like Phill who ? ....... Anybody know anything about this kid from Princeton maybe Sy 56 could tell us something.......


Chad Kanoff, who could be a late-round pick or a priority UDFA
I found myself warming (a little)  
Dave on the UWS : 3/11/2018 4:17 pm : link
to Allen after the senior bowl. He played well in the second half and made a couple of throws that were top notch. I liked his poise I liked his competitiveness he didnít do well in the first half but had the inner drive to pick his level up. That says something about him I think.
RE: RE: I've Posted This Before So Forgive Me For Repeating Myself...  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 3/11/2018 4:35 pm : link
In comment 13858541 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13858529 Jim in Tampa said:


Quote:


But a talking head on ESPN who was a former NFL front office guy (can't remember which one) attributed this quote to noted QB guru Gruden...

"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."

Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.

If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.

What if his top 15 plays are all broken plays?


Great! He'll be perfect for our o-line.
Josh Rosen  
GiantTuff1 : 3/11/2018 5:12 pm : link
.... No to Allen.
RE: RE: A bunch of teams went to look  
NikkiMac : 3/11/2018 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13858788 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 13858781 NikkiMac said:


Quote:


At the QB from Princeton Giants scouts were on hand supposedly this kid aced it and threw well while that noríeaster was going on say Giants came away impressed ..... Got me thinking back to 79 when they drafted Phil Simms and never forget that draft not many people had heard of Simms out of Moorehead state even Pete Rozelle laughed as he made the selection ....Me and my father were like Phill who ? ....... Anybody know anything about this kid from Princeton maybe Sy 56 could tell us something.......





Chad Kanoff, who could be a late-round pick or a priority UDFA


Yup thatís him anybody seen him play there were a bunch of exams there scouting him and all came away impressed .... I was thinking if Giants donít go QB round one and stick with Eli might this guy battle it out with Webb .....I donít ever think I have seen a Princeton football game lol
Teams  
NikkiMac : 3/11/2018 6:15 pm : link
Not exams where did the spell correct come up with that one
RE: RE: Having the strongest arm and being the best athlete....  
allstarjim : 3/12/2018 12:51 am : link
In comment 13858482 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 13858454 Milton said:


Quote:


...doesn't automatically mean he has the highest ceiling of the top QBs in the draft. If that's all there was to it, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Joe Montana wouldn't be the three QBs with the strongest case for greatest of the modern era.
p.s.--Pat Shurmur is not a magician. I'm guessing the QB he would most like to coach is the one he gets to teach Calculus, not the one who still needs to learn Algebra.



+1 no Coach can teach accuracy enough to make a massive improvement.. I don't see the cieling being higher for Allen vs Rosen.. Josh's tape is pretty bad and you can't simply say because he looked good in shorts without defense out there that he has the skills.. the only skills he has is throwing far and fast.. thats not a QB.. a QB is a passer not a thrower..


It's so clear sometimes when someone actually really hasn't watched the tape that they have an opinion on.

This is not accurate.
RE: RE: I've Posted This Before So Forgive Me For Repeating Myself...  
chopperhatch : 3/12/2018 4:48 am : link
In comment 13858541 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13858529 Jim in Tampa said:


Quote:


But a talking head on ESPN who was a former NFL front office guy (can't remember which one) attributed this quote to noted QB guru Gruden...

"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."

Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.

If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.

What if his top 15 plays are all broken plays?


Sounds like youre talking about Brett Favre. Not my fave QB, but "big arm that fixes broken plays" is Brett Favre in a nut shell.
RE: RE: And Speaking of QBs and Broken Plays...  
chopperhatch : 3/12/2018 5:37 am : link
In comment 13858596 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13858574 Jim in Tampa said:


Quote:


I think most people would agree that the defining play of Eli's career (to date) was the "broken play" in the Super Bowl, where he escaped the rush and threw the "helmet catch" ball to Tyree.

It would be great to see more broken plays like that.

You can call that "defining" if you like, but it was more like his luckiest play than his greatest. His greatest was in the 2011 Super Bowl when he threw a perfectly placed ball 40+ yards downfield to Manningham.


How exactly was the Tyree play "lucky?" Its not like a tackler slipped off him or ran by him. The Welker drop in the '11 bowl was "lucky." Eli breaking away from Jarvis Green and avoiding Adalius Thomas were all from Eli moving himself in that situation. Not a normal occurrence to see him move like that but it was the biggest game and he willed that play. His dumb ass throws that become picks I live with because he is CAPABLE of moments like that.

While I havent dismissed Rosen Milton, at this point you are blind to any alternative and its disappointing because you used to be a good poster.

Ignoring Allen as a potential successor to Eli because you happen to like Rosen better is fucking stupid because he simply is the more talented QB than Rosen with better meds. He is bigger, stronger and I think faster than Rosen, who despite the red flags is your de facto number one choice. You also completely wriye off Darnold who has nearly identical numbers in 2 years.

Actually no....they are BETTER.

Darnold had 57 TDs and 22 INTs in 2 years as a starting qb at USC. Rosen had 59 and 26 in two and a HALF years. Darnold has a 65% comp in two years, Rosen is 5 pts lower while playing in the same conference as Darnold. Those numbers are only misleading IN THIS REGARD: Darnold had an "off year" by completing over 63% of his passes in the past season. Rosen's highest avg production is less than Darnold's college avg. Actually no, Rosen's highest comp pct AS WELL AS rating has not even met Darnold's. AVG!ut thats not the big deal.

Darnold has mobility, the history of playing LB on his High School football team, no party/rock the boat/controversial stuff to speak of and no injury red flags....like....at all.

Rosen has had the Trump hat thing, the multiple arm injuries and the 2 concussions in a month and a half against COLLEGE athletes.

Yet....he is so far and away from the rest of the pack as far as your choice to lead the Giants into the future? Even tho he has worse numbers, athleticism, potential and medical than Darnold?

My point Milton is that you have fallen in love with a player in the draft. I have always liked reading you as a poster, but you sound almost manic at this point. There is absolutely no reason to prefer Rosen(or any QB really) over Darnold if you look at everything totally objectively. It's another thing if you are in favor of an option like Allen who bring something to the table that darnold does not. But literally there is no reason to give Josh Rosen the edge over Sam darnold when it comes to evaluating drafting a quarterback (other than the comeback he led against Texas A&M...really thats it and was a fairly meaningless and flukey win).

You have admitted to having shared beliefs with Rosen, and thats okay. But your ignoring the pure numbers and actuality of Darnold being a better prospect thanRosen annoys me quite a bit. Especially when I cant fathom in what regard Josh Rosen looks the better QB prospect than Darnold.
I think we trade down and get Allen  
SGMen : 3/12/2018 6:14 am : link
I think Darnold goes #1 to the Browns and we end up drafting down, netting J. Allen this year; an extra #2 and #4 this year; and, a #1 and #3 next year or something like that.

I really like Allen but not at #2.
RE: RE: RE: And Speaking of QBs and Broken Plays...  
Milton : 3/12/2018 8:40 am : link
In comment 13859425 chopperhatch said:
Quote:

How exactly was the Tyree play "lucky?" Its not like a tackler slipped off him or ran by him.
The luck factor wasn't the escape, but the fact that he basically threw the ball up for grabs in the middle of the field. The great throw is the one to Manningham in the 2011 Super Bowl.

As for the comparison between Darnold and Rosen, I'm not alone in seeing Rosen as the better of the two (nor am I alone in seeing Rosen as the best QB in the class). Rosen has better mechanics and played in a pro style offense. He was also much better on the whiteboard at the combine according to rumors and outperformed Darnold in the athletic testing. Nobody thinks Rosen is a better athlete than Darnold, but why did he do better? Because he worked harder at it and loves to compete, even if it's something he's not especially good at.

p.s.--Here are the rankings from three of the more respected draftniks in the business....

The Huddle Report Post-Combine Top 200

Draft Board Guru Post-Combine Top 100

Great Blue North Post-Combine Top 100


Milton  
Mike from Ohio : 3/12/2018 9:07 am : link
I didn't realize Rosen was gluten free! That completely changes my mind about him.

Rosen may very well be the best QB in this draft, and there are plenty of knowledgeable scouts who would agree with that. I think the point is that there really is no consensus at all. If the Giants draft him at #2 they obviously thought the same thing. I have watched him play a bunch and never saw anything that told me he was special. Granted I may be biased because I am an Arizona guy and he was brutal in that game against a very bad defense.

All season I was hoping the Giants would end up with a top pick to get their next franchise QB, but I am just not sure that guy is in this draft. I don't want them to just take the best of what is available, which is what this class feels like to me.
RE: Milton  
Milton : 3/12/2018 9:41 am : link
In comment 13859531 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:

All season I was hoping the Giants would end up with a top pick to get their next franchise QB, but I am just not sure that guy is in this draft. I don't want them to just take the best of what is available, which is what this class feels like to me.
I used to be comfortable with either Rosen or Darnold. Now I'm only comfortable with Rosen. And if the doctors feel like Rosen's shoulder presents a chronic issue, then I'm not comfortable with him either. But I'm also not crazy about two BBI favorites, Barkley and Nelson. Neither is the sure thing they are made out to be. If the Giants don't like any of the QBs I would favor trading out of the top ten altogether and seeking a large bounty in return. This draft is very deep in red chip talent.
RE: RE: RE: Your remote is safe there's almost not chance....  
allstarjim : 3/12/2018 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13858763 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 13858450 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 13858444 GFAN52 said:


Quote:


he's selected in the top 4.



Says who? I believe there is about a 90% chance he is drafted in the top 4



I'd love to take that bet.


A lot of people more immersed than I in the draft (who make a living at this stuff), have said he has a decent chance of being the top QB taken. Personally, I wouldn't be upset. The guy has every tool in the toolbox to be a great NFL QB.
Remote  
Thegratefulhead : 3/12/2018 2:15 pm : link
Would go in the chipper. Allen is the only QB I don't want. Rosen/Mayfield is the way to go. All of them have been concussed, not worried at all. Shoulder looks fine.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And Speaking of QBs and Broken Plays...  
chopperhatch : 3/13/2018 5:53 pm : link
In comment 13859493 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13859425 chopperhatch said:


Quote:



How exactly was the Tyree play "lucky?" Its not like a tackler slipped off him or ran by him.

The luck factor wasn't the escape, but the fact that he basically threw the ball up for grabs in the middle of the field. The great throw is the one to Manningham in the 2011 Super Bowl.

As for the comparison between Darnold and Rosen, I'm not alone in seeing Rosen as the better of the two (nor am I alone in seeing Rosen as the best QB in the class). Rosen has better mechanics and played in a pro style offense. He was also much better on the whiteboard at the combine according to rumors and outperformed Darnold in the athletic testing. Nobody thinks Rosen is a better athlete than Darnold, but why did he do better? Because he worked harder at it and loves to compete, even if it's something he's not especially good at.

p.s.--Here are the rankings from three of the more respected draftniks in the business....

The Huddle Report Post-Combine Top 200

Draft Board Guru Post-Combine Top 100

Great Blue North Post-Combine Top 100



And Im sure I can find plenty of sites saying Darnold is the best QB prospect in tge draft. Thing is, there is literally nothing you can ppint to that makesRosen a clearly better than Darnold. My point is not that you prefer Rosen, you utterly dismissive of any other QB option in this draft when Rosen has as many if not more warts than any of them.
I actually like Allen  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/13/2018 6:01 pm : link
the best of all the QBs in the draft - so I would no tbe upset if the Giants took him.

Darnold scares me -- and Rosen is a good thrower -- but I worry about his attitude and bullheadedness

Allen needs work -- but he has all the tools, including the intangibles, and he has shown -- more than Darnold and Rosen that he can take training/coaching and absorb it well

I am not a Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson fan
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