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Cap position...so with all the moves does anyone

Thatís Gold, Jerry : 3/12/2018 8:48 am
know what our cap position is? I checked Over The Cap and they have us only at $13M plus in cap space but they had not removed Cromartie or Wing yet. Spotrac has us close to $20M.
we're around 20.5 after those moves  
YAJ2112 : 3/12/2018 8:52 am : link
add 7.525 in room for savings on DRC/Wing and then subtract 960K in room to move next 2 guys up to the top 51
I believe with Wing and DRC  
pjcas18 : 3/12/2018 8:54 am : link
off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.
and we really have no idea  
Andy in Boston : 3/12/2018 8:56 am : link
if they converted the bonus money on Ogeltree. No way they're taking a $10 million cap hit with him.

We could have well over 25 million. Hoping some of that info comes out today.
with not a lot of space  
Tim in VA : 3/12/2018 8:57 am : link
We can't expect to fill many more holes via free agency. Another argument for accruing extra draft picks via trade down
RE: with not a lot of space  
pjcas18 : 3/12/2018 8:59 am : link
In comment 13859510 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
We can't expect to fill many more holes via free agency. Another argument for accruing extra draft picks via trade down


that is not an argument for trading down, it's more of an argument for dumpster diving (expect "non sexy" free agent signings.
We may have more cap room now  
chuckydee9 : 3/12/2018 8:59 am : link
but we also have more holes to fill.. It seems like there are tons of holes to fill and personally I don't know how you get a quality CB for $6M/yr.. Lets see how this goes..
RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
YAJ2112 : 3/12/2018 9:00 am : link
In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.


You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.
RE: RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
pjcas18 : 3/12/2018 9:01 am : link
In comment 13859516 YAJ2112 said:
Quote:
In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:


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off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.



You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.


Good point, YAJ # is more accurate, but I do expect the cap to be somewhat fluid the next week as signings happen and maybe even more cuts or restructures.
RE: RE: RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
YAJ2112 : 3/12/2018 9:02 am : link
In comment 13859518 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13859516 YAJ2112 said:


Quote:


In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:


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off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.



You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.



Good point, YAJ # is more accurate, but I do expect the cap to be somewhat fluid the next week as signings happen and maybe even more cuts or restructures.


I'll make a cap expert out of you yet!
RE: RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
Beer Man : 3/12/2018 9:02 am : link
In comment 13859516 YAJ2112 said:
Quote:
In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.



You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.
Yes and no. If you sign two more players at a higher rate, it bounce the bottom two off the 51 man calculation.
RE: RE: RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
YAJ2112 : 3/12/2018 9:06 am : link
In comment 13859521 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13859516 YAJ2112 said:


Quote:


In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.



You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.

Yes and no. If you sign two more players at a higher rate, it bounce the bottom two off the 51 man calculation.


Of course, but we didn't sign anybody we just dropped 2 players. So it's not yes and no, it's yes.
Spotrac has it currently at $19.85M....  
Milton : 3/12/2018 9:06 am : link
...with $9.6M of that eventually needed to sign draft picks. If they cut Brandon Marshall and Dwayne Harris that would create an additional $6.6M in cap space, bringing the total cap space to roughly $26.5M.

Short of restructuring contracts, two other moves to create cap space would be releasing John Jerry (adds roughly $2M in cap space) and trading Ereck Flowers and his guaranteed salary (adds roughly $1.9M in cap space).
Giants spotrac - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
pjcas18 : 3/12/2018 9:08 am : link
In comment 13859520 YAJ2112 said:
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In comment 13859518 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13859516 YAJ2112 said:


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In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:


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off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.



You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.



Good point, YAJ # is more accurate, but I do expect the cap to be somewhat fluid the next week as signings happen and maybe even more cuts or restructures.



I'll make a cap expert out of you yet!


LOL, there was another poster here who knew all the cap machinations really well and stayed on top of it. optimus something maybe?

to that point I joined BBI in the first place because there was a poster (ttb in roanoke?) who had the most accurate Giants cap status on the internet (this was in the mid 2000's). And it was hard to get good cap information until OTC and sport trac started their sites.

Are those numbers  
old man : 3/12/2018 9:13 am : link
Before or after the reserve for the draft class and the injury reserve?
The former is about 8-9, the later 2.5-3.5, estimated.

Better be some cuts/big restructures the next 48 hours if BEFORE.
RE: Are those numbers  
YAJ2112 : 3/12/2018 9:14 am : link
In comment 13859538 old man said:
Quote:
Before or after the reserve for the draft class and the injury reserve?
The former is about 8-9, the later 2.5-3.5, estimated.

Better be some cuts/big restructures the next 48 hours if BEFORE.


We don't need that room until it's time to sign the draft picks. So there is no rush to do anything.
...  
christian : 3/12/2018 9:15 am : link
Fascinating to me the Giants are clearly looking to get younger and shed expensive contracts relative to output.

This all makes sense, but then I look at the QB position and I get all confused again.
RE: ...  
Big Rick in FL : 3/12/2018 9:21 am : link
In comment 13859543 christian said:
Quote:
Fascinating to me the Giants are clearly looking to get younger and shed expensive contracts relative to output.

This all makes sense, but then I look at the QB position and I get all confused again.


He will be gone next year. They don't save that much by cutting him. Next year they save 17 million. That's when he will be cut/traded.


Also stop looking at just this year's cap space. Contracts are always backloaded and have minimal cap hit in year 1. Figure we cut Marshall, Harris and a few others. That will save us over 10 million on this year's cap. The Giants will be walking into free agency with around 30-35 million in cap space for this year. That number blows up next year even with Eli on the roster. So we will be able to sign guys this year. We don't have to dumpster dive.
RE: ...  
Matt in SGS : 3/12/2018 9:26 am : link
In comment 13859543 christian said:
Quote:
Fascinating to me the Giants are clearly looking to get younger and shed expensive contracts relative to output.

This all makes sense, but then I look at the QB position and I get all confused again.


I don't think so, I think it speaks more to the fact that there are a number of QBs in this draft who have the talent to play and start in the NFL, but they aren't ready to step in day 1. The Tyrod Taylor trade told you that Cleveland believes this as well.

So if you are the Giants, I think they are looking at guys who are nearing or on the wrong side of 30 and with a heavy cap hit and moving them out (not counting Eli). Also, if you are underperforming, you are getting moved out (see Wing).

Eli represents really a no lose situation for the Giants. Eli can still play and if the Giants shore up the offensive line, they do have weapons still there (Odell, Engram, Shepard, etc). So they can aim to be competitive while they rebuild their young talent. And be in a position to continue to groom Webb and a potentially a first round QB.

I think Gettleman is playing this correctly with Eli.
RE: RE: ...  
Neckbone1333 : 3/12/2018 9:31 am : link
In comment 13859554 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 13859543 christian said:


Quote:


Fascinating to me the Giants are clearly looking to get younger and shed expensive contracts relative to output.

This all makes sense, but then I look at the QB position and I get all confused again.



I don't think so, I think it speaks more to the fact that there are a number of QBs in this draft who have the talent to play and start in the NFL, but they aren't ready to step in day 1. The Tyrod Taylor trade told you that Cleveland believes this as well.

So if you are the Giants, I think they are looking at guys who are nearing or on the wrong side of 30 and with a heavy cap hit and moving them out (not counting Eli). Also, if you are underperforming, you are getting moved out (see Wing).

Eli represents really a no lose situation for the Giants. Eli can still play and if the Giants shore up the offensive line, they do have weapons still there (Odell, Engram, Shepard, etc). So they can aim to be competitive while they rebuild their young talent. And be in a position to continue to groom Webb and a potentially a first round QB.

I think Gettleman is playing this correctly with Eli.


Yeah...but Eli doesn't scramble
The Giants  
mdthedream : 3/12/2018 9:32 am : link
have a lot of talent they just need to fix the O-Line and I think the biggest issue was coaching. They should have made changing to the starting lineup early.
RE: ...  
Keith : 3/12/2018 9:34 am : link
In comment 13859543 christian said:
Quote:
Fascinating to me the Giants are clearly looking to get younger and shed expensive contracts relative to output.

This all makes sense, but then I look at the QB position and I get all confused again.


It's a fair point, but what are they really gaining by cutting him? Not to mention, it's only march, a lot can still happen. For example, remember when the Vikings gave up a 1st for Bradford? Maybe we can find a team willing to overpay out of desperation. Who knows if Eli will allow that, but it's possible.
Cap position could be really strong....  
Emlen'sGremlins : 3/12/2018 9:38 am : link
....once Gettleman has the inevitable conversation with Manning about a pay cut.
People really need perspective on Eli Manning's salary  
Eric on Li : 3/12/2018 9:43 am : link
His $21m AAV is currently the 11th highest paid QB (will be 12th after Cousins signs). He's paid less than $200K more than Phillip Rivers, who will be 13th. He's paid less than $1m more than Ryan Tannehill, who is 16th in the rankings. So simply put - he is making the league average at the QB position.

You want to move on from Eli and save ~10m? Ok. Check out these prices for a replacement - Alex Smith just got $23.5m. Cousins is going to break the bank and he is woefully average. Blake Bortles is not a good player and he just got $18m/year. Even Tyrod Taylor, who Cleveland just acquired to be their caretaker while they groom a rookie makes $15m. Why anyone would rather watch one of those guys play QB and help groom this franchise's next QB over Eli I have no idea.

Eli Manning is not overpaid. Old yes. Overpaid relative to his current performance, not really.
RE: Cap position could be really strong....  
Milton : 3/12/2018 9:43 am : link
In comment 13859565 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
....once Gettleman has the inevitable conversation with Manning about a pay cut.
Not gonna happen.
People thinking Eli is the culprit with our cap situation  
Rjanyg : 3/12/2018 9:48 am : link
are not seeing the real problem....OV and JPP's contracts and the fact that they are not living up to them. It is one thing having 1 high paid DL but the Giants have 3 and only Snacks is worth his numbers right now.
Close to $25 million right now  
Bruner4329 : 3/12/2018 9:48 am : link
With the restructuring of Ogletree contract we are slightly above $25 million in cap space before any more moves. I believe as mentioned above that Harris, Marshall and Jerry are all logical cuts that can get us close to $35 million. I do believe they will keep Jerry until they sign an OL or 2 and then cut him. It will be a wait and see to make sure we sign somebody. Then he becomes a cap casualty.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
Beer Man : 3/12/2018 9:56 am : link
In comment 13859526 YAJ2112 said:
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In comment 13859521 Beer Man said:


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In comment 13859516 YAJ2112 said:


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In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:


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off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.



You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.

Yes and no. If you sign two more players at a higher rate, it bounce the bottom two off the 51 man calculation.



Of course, but we didn't sign anybody we just dropped 2 players. So it's not yes and no, it's yes.
What I said is correct. The number currently includes the bottom two, but when DG and team get the calculator out to determine what they can spend, the bottom end salaries will be a factor. So its yes and no.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
YAJ2112 : 3/12/2018 10:01 am : link
In comment 13859590 Beer Man said:
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In comment 13859526 YAJ2112 said:


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In comment 13859521 Beer Man said:


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In comment 13859516 YAJ2112 said:


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In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:


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off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.



You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.

Yes and no. If you sign two more players at a higher rate, it bounce the bottom two off the 51 man calculation.



Of course, but we didn't sign anybody we just dropped 2 players. So it's not yes and no, it's yes.

What I said is correct. The number currently includes the bottom two, but when DG and team get the calculator out to determine what they can spend, the bottom end salaries will be a factor. So its yes and no.


That is how much cap space is a new signing would eat up, not how much cap space do we currently have. So it's yes.
RE: Cap position could be really strong....  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/12/2018 10:02 am : link
In comment 13859565 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
....once Gettleman has the inevitable conversation with Manning about a pay cut.


Ahahaha
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I believe with Wing and DRC  
Beer Man : 3/12/2018 10:05 am : link
In comment 13859602 YAJ2112 said:
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In comment 13859590 Beer Man said:


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In comment 13859526 YAJ2112 said:


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In comment 13859521 Beer Man said:


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In comment 13859516 YAJ2112 said:


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In comment 13859505 pjcas18 said:


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off the cap it's around $21.5M.

I think they may try and restructure Ogletree (no reason other than his basically got no guaranteed money other than roster bonuses), so maybe the Giants turn those two into a signing bonus and pro-rate over the remaining 4 years - which would create another $3.5M or so in 2018.



You have to move 2 guys on to the top 51 to replace them, so you have to account for those hits as well.

Yes and no. If you sign two more players at a higher rate, it bounce the bottom two off the 51 man calculation.



Of course, but we didn't sign anybody we just dropped 2 players. So it's not yes and no, it's yes.

What I said is correct. The number currently includes the bottom two, but when DG and team get the calculator out to determine what they can spend, the bottom end salaries will be a factor. So its yes and no.



That is how much cap space is a new signing would eat up, not how much cap space do we currently have. So it's yes.
So you say. Thank you for sharing.
Beer Man  
YAJ2112 : 3/12/2018 10:12 am : link
We currently have 20.5mm in available cap space, which is what I'm saying.

If we sign player X and his 2018 cap hit is 5.48mm, then that only reduces our cap space by 5mm - since the lowest salary (.48mm currently) would drop from the top 51 cap calculation. That is what you are saying.

Both are correct.

But you don't factor in that salary swap when discussing current cap space. You only factor it in when you are making the player swap when someone signs, or if you want to discuss the impact of player X's signing would have.
Anyone discussing AAV when there is a cap situation  
Keith : 3/12/2018 10:21 am : link
is off base. AAV means nothing.

That being said, the Giants are in a very good cap situation. Maybe not in the short term where they can just sign people willy nilly, but they have a lot of flexibility starting next year. This year the focus should be to improve the talent and build for next year. Draft a QB, let Eli play out this last season and then next year make the tough decisions on guys like JPP and Vernon.
IMO,  
Keith : 3/12/2018 10:23 am : link
this is year 1 of a 3 year rebuild. Starts with a QB and suring up the OL. Next year we will make more improvements to the roster and then hopefully our new QB will be ready to win some games(See Philly and LA Rams).
Tough decisions?  
Painless62 : 3/12/2018 10:28 am : link
JPP is essentially 22.5 million in dead money. Perhaps the new DC can figure out a way to get something from him . He is a noose around our necks probably for 2 more years, but much more so 2018.
RE: with not a lot of space  
djstat : 3/12/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13859510 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
We can't expect to fill many more holes via free agency. Another argument for accruing extra draft picks via trade down
$25 Million is plenty in cap space. Sure its not as nice as Cleveland but Cleveland also was 0-16. Were fine in cap space.
RE: Tough decisions?  
Milton : 3/12/2018 11:02 am : link
In comment 13859639 Painless62 said:
Quote:
JPP is essentially 22.5 million in dead money. Perhaps the new DC can figure out a way to get something from him . He is a noose around our necks probably for 2 more years, but much more so 2018.
I'm expecting bounce back years from both JPP and Vernon.
Painless? - ( New Window )
Bounce back years for JPP and Vernon?  
Go Terps : 3/12/2018 11:19 am : link
Bounce back to what? With the exception of JPP's 2011 season, last year was completely in line with the rest of their careers.

JPP and Vernon only underperformed last year relative to their ridiculous contracts. They're both a case of non-elite players getting elite money.
According to the NY Post  
Beer Man : 3/15/2018 3:48 pm : link
The Giants are currently $5.3M below the cap but can free up another $16M by restructuring Ogletree's contract and cutting Marshall, Harris, John Jerry, and Ray-Ray Armstrong.
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