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QB musings....Ball velocity (Mayfield) and Accuracy (Rosen)

mittenedman : 3/12/2018 3:41 pm
1st - Josh Allen at 62 mph threw the hardest ball ever recorded at the Combine. ok - almost expect.

But Baker Mayfield joined Mahomes last year who everyone went batshit over as the only other to hit 60 mph. Webb has a Howitzer and hit 59. just thought Mayfield continued to do the unexpected and shows he's got a real gun.

and now Rosen. Almost a magical thrower of the football. I was blown away by his accuracy in the drills hitting guys perfectly in stride. He is light years ahead of anybody else and that includes most of the NFL too. wow. could be looking at an All Time great.

think one of these 2 ends up the Giants QB.
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RE: Great arm and FB smarts has Rosen.  
Essex : 3/12/2018 4:48 pm : link
In comment 13860453 TMS said:
Quote:
But takes a lot of sacks and could be a retiree very early. ELI tough he is not. Remember DG / Shurmur are looking for FB players who would not want to be doing anything else. Think he fits that profile ? For a franchise QB.


what else does Rosen want to do? You seem to know him so well. Was curious?
RE: Rosen is to Peyton Manning as  
Milton : 3/12/2018 4:50 pm : link
In comment 13860455 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Please stop with these over the moon comparisons.
How about Dan Marino?
RE: RE: Rosen is to Peyton Manning as  
allstarjim : 3/12/2018 4:52 pm : link
In comment 13860467 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13860455 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Please stop with these over the moon comparisons.

How about Dan Marino?


LOL, ok fair, Milton (in that neither one has a chance to win a Super Bowl). ;P
Ball velocity  
Archer : 3/12/2018 5:33 pm : link
Ball velocity is not an indicator of success, but it can be an indicator of failure
Low velocity is a red indicator and can eliminate a player

It is like a QB with small hands or a OT with short arms

Deshaun Watson had very poor velocity last year and is an outlier
Watson is the only QB since they started recording velocity that threw for less than 50 mph yet has demonstrated NFL success

It may be that running QBs do not have to throw with velocity

Bye the way Allen threw for a maximum of 69 mph at the Senior Bowl which was the fastest ever recorded

Rosen vs Allen  
Archer : 3/12/2018 5:36 pm : link
I also read that Allen threw the ball 70 yards at the combine and that Rosen threw the ball 65 yards

Neither player was over throwing and made the throws with relative ease
What I like about Rosen is how he stands up in the pocket against  
idinkido : 3/12/2018 5:44 pm : link
pressure scanning downfield to complete the pass play and his effortless throws, plus accuracy. Has a high QB intelligence.
If the Giants do not get Rosen  
Hammer : 3/12/2018 5:47 pm : link
I will be very very disappointed.
RE: Rosen is to Peyton Manning as  
bw in dc : 3/12/2018 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13860455 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Damontre Moore is to Michael Strahan.

Please stop with these over the moon comparisons.


I agree with the Manning comparison actually - in terms of thinking the game and showing an ability to make every NFL throw - at this stage of their careers. And I don't know how much of Manning you saw at Tennessee, but Rosen throws a much better ball.

And let's not act like Manning was this non-nothing-wrong QB at Tennessee. He could never beat Florida, never got to the national championship game, and tended to come up short in big games like the Orange Bow in '98 against Nebraska with a chance to steal the national championship (he was not good).
Should read...  
bw in dc : 3/12/2018 5:49 pm : link
do-nothing-wrong QB...
Trade  
Thinblueline : 3/12/2018 6:03 pm : link
Back a few spots and get Baker Mayfield... get a couple extra 2nd rounders and fix our O-line once and for all. Gives Us two talented young QB to replace Eli in the next couple years..
RE: Trade  
Essex : 3/12/2018 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13860573 Thinblueline said:
Quote:
Back a few spots and get Baker Mayfield... get a couple extra 2nd rounders and fix our O-line once and for all. Gives Us two talented young QB to replace Eli in the next couple years..


So your basis for arguing that Davis Webb is talented is what? So, let's draft another iffy qb selection and see if one works out? Makes complete sense, you should email this to the Giants to make sure they know about it.
For all the talk  
mattyblue : 3/12/2018 6:23 pm : link
of not taking a QB this year, look at how difficult the teams trying to move up are having. Add to hat people who say this isnít a good QB class which seems to contradict everything these teams are doing to get in range.
RE: Rosen vs Allen  
bw in dc : 3/12/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 13860534 Archer said:
Quote:
I also read that Allen threw the ball 70 yards at the combine and that Rosen threw the ball 65 yards


Combine doesn't have a throwing drill for distance. That was just an estimate where each guy dropped back, planted, threw the go pattern, and then where the receiver caught the ball...

Allen can easily throw the ball 80+ yards. Rosen probably 70. But really - when do you need that skill? Basically the Hail Mary drill, right?
the difference between  
mittenedman : 3/12/2018 6:46 pm : link
a slightly inaccurate ball and a perfect passing leading a streaking receiver into the open field is night and day. i would watch for Rosen in blue! you can't find passers like this very often
RE: For all the talk  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/12/2018 7:02 pm : link
In comment 13860595 mattyblue said:
Quote:
of not taking a QB this year, look at how difficult the teams trying to move up are having. Add to hat people who say this isnít a good QB class which seems to contradict everything these teams are doing to get in range.


The idea that 'these QBs aren't that good' is something that's largely being thrown around here. I don't think that's the national view whatsoever.
RE: If the Giants do not get Rosen  
The_Boss : 3/12/2018 8:21 pm : link
In comment 13860548 Hammer said:
Quote:
I will be very very disappointed.


As will I. Iíve been on ďTeam RosenĒ for awhile, along with his #1 fan Milton. Unfortunately, my gut is telling me heís probably not on their radar though.
Rosen  
Craigg619 : 3/12/2018 9:26 pm : link
One of the more shocking things for me, is the fact that so many giant fans don't want Rosen. I would've sworn that every Giant fan would be gushing at the thought of Rosen. He's so talented. He's going to be a great QB in this league for a long time.

I think people manuafacture reasons not to like him strictly because they don't like his personality or his politics, I just don't get it. I'd jump for joy if they took Rosen.
I'm on record  
GoBlue6599 : 3/12/2018 9:47 pm : link
I love Rosen having watched him throughout the season this guy is so dag on accuarate with the ball...
Receivers rarely break stride the ball just seems to always be placed in a good spot
Darnold is a playmaker at the Qb spot ( sloppy play is a concern) and Allen I really haven't seen play that much not gonna pretend to have watched any Wyoming games. Mayfield has potential as well
This is a good class of Qb.. Great year to have a top pick
Will be happy with whomever we take but my preference is Rosen
RE: RE: Rosen is to Peyton Manning as  
allstarjim : 3/12/2018 11:29 pm : link
In comment 13860549 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13860455 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Damontre Moore is to Michael Strahan.

Please stop with these over the moon comparisons.



I agree with the Manning comparison actually - in terms of thinking the game and showing an ability to make every NFL throw - at this stage of their careers. And I don't know how much of Manning you saw at Tennessee, but Rosen throws a much better ball.

And let's not act like Manning was this non-nothing-wrong QB at Tennessee. He could never beat Florida, never got to the national championship game, and tended to come up short in big games like the Orange Bow in '98 against Nebraska with a chance to steal the national championship (he was not good).


I'm pretty sure you don't want to compare Rosen with Manning in their college careers. Manning went 39-6 as a starter in 4 years. Rosen lost 5 games just last season in 11 starts. If we want to dig into numbers, it doesn't get better for Rosen. If you want to compare arm talent, Peyton's arm is being severely underrated. He could spin it, and had postage-stamp accuracy, at all levels. His ability to hit receivers deep in stride consistently I believe to be unparalleled in NFL history. He could also actually throw on the move and do so accurately. Can Rosen throw the ball farther than Manning could? Yes, probably. But that's not to say Manning didn't have a very good arm, because he did, and he could unleash a pretty good fastball. I think some don't realize how good Peyton was in his Tennessee days and in his prime NFL years.

But what made Manning so great...his intangibles and leadership, his accuracy, his competitive fire, decision-making, and he excelled at his preparation. Does Rosen have some of these qualities? Perhaps. At the Peyton Manning level? Preparation maybe. But to compare him to one of the best QBs of all-time? He's not on that level as a prospect, sorry. He's just not.
RE: RE: RE: Rosen is to Peyton Manning as  
bw in dc : 3/12/2018 11:40 pm : link
In comment 13860893 allstarjim said:
Quote:

I'm pretty sure you don't want to compare Rosen with Manning in their college careers. Manning went 39-6 as a starter in 4 years. Rosen lost 5 games just last season in 11 starts. If we want to dig into numbers, it doesn't get better for Rosen. If you want to compare arm talent, Peyton's arm is being severely underrated. He could spin it, and had postage-stamp accuracy, at all levels. His ability to hit receivers deep in stride consistently I believe to be unparalleled in NFL history. He could also actually throw on the move and do so accurately. Can Rosen throw the ball farther than Manning could? Yes, probably. But that's not to say Manning didn't have a very good arm, because he did, and he could unleash a pretty good fastball. I think some don't realize how good Peyton was in his Tennessee days and in his prime NFL years.

But what made Manning so great...his intangibles and leadership, his accuracy, his competitive fire, decision-making, and he excelled at his preparation. Does Rosen have some of these qualities? Perhaps. At the Peyton Manning level? Preparation maybe. But to compare him to one of the best QBs of all-time? He's not on that level as a prospect, sorry. He's just not.


Oh, dear Lord. I'm comparing them at this stage of their careers from a arm talent stand point and their football acumen. They both had the ability to stand big in the pocket and make every NFL throw. And they are both very football savvy.

I never threw in the NFL Peyton.

And spare me the college records. Manning had considerably more talent to work with on both sides of the ball. Want to go through it? Jamaal Lewis. Peerles Price. Marcus Nash. Chad Clifton. Leonard Little. Shaun Ellis. Terry Fair. Etc. Do I need to go any further? Those guys are pros. And I'm sure I am forgetting some.
I don't have much time for "wins as a starter" as a means of judging  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/12/2018 11:44 pm : link
talent. It can be as misleading as wins as a starting pitcher. Mahomes barely won 7 games a year in college and people were drooling over him as a prospect last year. Davis Webb won 5 games the year he came out.

UCLA's problem has a lot to do with coaching. Jim Mora isn't a head coach of any note. 46-32 in college and 31-33 in the pros.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen is to Peyton Manning as  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 12:22 am : link
In comment 13860904 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13860893 allstarjim said:


Quote:



I'm pretty sure you don't want to compare Rosen with Manning in their college careers. Manning went 39-6 as a starter in 4 years. Rosen lost 5 games just last season in 11 starts. If we want to dig into numbers, it doesn't get better for Rosen. If you want to compare arm talent, Peyton's arm is being severely underrated. He could spin it, and had postage-stamp accuracy, at all levels. His ability to hit receivers deep in stride consistently I believe to be unparalleled in NFL history. He could also actually throw on the move and do so accurately. Can Rosen throw the ball farther than Manning could? Yes, probably. But that's not to say Manning didn't have a very good arm, because he did, and he could unleash a pretty good fastball. I think some don't realize how good Peyton was in his Tennessee days and in his prime NFL years.

But what made Manning so great...his intangibles and leadership, his accuracy, his competitive fire, decision-making, and he excelled at his preparation. Does Rosen have some of these qualities? Perhaps. At the Peyton Manning level? Preparation maybe. But to compare him to one of the best QBs of all-time? He's not on that level as a prospect, sorry. He's just not.



Oh, dear Lord. I'm comparing them at this stage of their careers from a arm talent stand point and their football acumen. They both had the ability to stand big in the pocket and make every NFL throw. And they are both very football savvy.

I never threw in the NFL Peyton.

And spare me the college records. Manning had considerably more talent to work with on both sides of the ball. Want to go through it? Jamaal Lewis. Peerles Price. Marcus Nash. Chad Clifton. Leonard Little. Shaun Ellis. Terry Fair. Etc. Do I need to go any further? Those guys are pros. And I'm sure I am forgetting some.


No player on the field has as much to do with wins and losses as the QB. And while wins as a starting pitcher (replying to Ten Ton Hammer as well with this post) has been an overrated metric in baseball history, it also isn't without merit. There is a reason why great QBs win a lot, it's because it has a lot to do with them. Often the players change around them but they still win. Rodgers, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben. In the course of the game, they do what it takes to win, no matter what the other limitations or strengths are on the team. The W-L record for a QB has some relevancy. It isn't the only thing. It is just one metric, but it is relevant.

And I don't care if you set that aside, Rosen is no Peyton Manning as a prospect. Peyton played 45 career games. In 1994, after he was named a starter, he never missed another start in his collegiate career. His sophomore year of '95 Tennessee went 11-1. Don't talk to me about Florida, either. Spurrier's teams were absolute powerhouses back then, they had the best athletes and players in the country.

Rosen never beat Stanford or USC. Rosen lost 13 times in 30 starts. And I can't even give him credit for winning the Cal game, because he only played the first half before leaving due to concussion in a one score game. Devon Modster finished the game and did enough to give UCLA the victory.

After the '96 season, Peyton had already graduated with his Bachelor's degree and was projected as the #1 overall pick in the draft, and still came back for his senior season. Rosen "got held out" of his bowl game and left in his junior year (and that is fine), but his legacy is of losing just about every big game and missing games to injury.

In Peyton's senior season, he led his team back to finish an 11-1 season with the SEC championship before losing to #2 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl. He was a consensus 1st team All-American, won the Davey O'Brien Award, the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award, the Maxwell Award, and the SEC Player of the Year Award, and was runner-up in the Heisman to Charles Woodson, and many feel Peyton was robbed.

The following is a list of Josh Rosen's major college awards:

.

Peyton's worst college season is comparable to Rosen's best college season.

As prospects, Peyton is superior in every meaningful way except that, Rosen probably had a stronger arm. That's it.

RE: I don't have much time for  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 12:24 am : link
In comment 13860909 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
talent. It can be as misleading as wins as a starting pitcher. Mahomes barely won 7 games a year in college and people were drooling over him as a prospect last year. Davis Webb won 5 games the year he came out.

UCLA's problem has a lot to do with coaching. Jim Mora isn't a head coach of any note. 46-32 in college and 31-33 in the pros.


Not for nothing but Mahomes and Webb haven't done anything in the NFL yet. And I'm not a big Davis Webb or Mahomes guy, either. Winning games matters.

Anhow, I am working on a little study comparing Darnold and Rosen in a very specific set of circumstances that I will share with you guys, perhaps it will be enlightening or perhaps not.
I think it matters more as an optic for people who speculate  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/13/2018 12:34 am : link
on the draft.

College records for a selection of pro bowl QBs who won a super bowl in the past 10 years.

7-4
7-6
10-3

7-5
8-5
9-4

7-5
7-5
13-3

6-7
5-7
9-4

See if you can guess the name that fits the career from this pool: Brees, Wilson, Eli, Roethlisberger

RE: I think it matters more as an optic for people who speculate  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 12:51 am : link
In comment 13860924 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
on the draft.

College records for a selection of pro bowl QBs who won a super bowl in the past 10 years.

7-4
7-6
10-3

7-5
8-5
9-4

7-5
7-5
13-3

6-7
5-7
9-4

See if you can guess the name that fits the career from this pool: Brees, Wilson, Eli, Roethlisberger


Ok this is straight up guessing without looking. I think the groups are ordered: Wilson, Eli, Roethlisberger, and Brees is in the last group.
You're throwing me off, though, TTH  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 12:53 am : link
Because in that third group, 13-3 is impossible in college.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen is to Peyton Manning as  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 1:19 am : link
In comment 13860922 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13860904 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 13860893 allstarjim said:


Quote:



I'm pretty sure you don't want to compare Rosen with Manning in their college careers. Manning went 39-6 as a starter in 4 years. Rosen lost 5 games just last season in 11 starts. If we want to dig into numbers, it doesn't get better for Rosen. If you want to compare arm talent, Peyton's arm is being severely underrated. He could spin it, and had postage-stamp accuracy, at all levels. His ability to hit receivers deep in stride consistently I believe to be unparalleled in NFL history. He could also actually throw on the move and do so accurately. Can Rosen throw the ball farther than Manning could? Yes, probably. But that's not to say Manning didn't have a very good arm, because he did, and he could unleash a pretty good fastball. I think some don't realize how good Peyton was in his Tennessee days and in his prime NFL years.

But what made Manning so great...his intangibles and leadership, his accuracy, his competitive fire, decision-making, and he excelled at his preparation. Does Rosen have some of these qualities? Perhaps. At the Peyton Manning level? Preparation maybe. But to compare him to one of the best QBs of all-time? He's not on that level as a prospect, sorry. He's just not.



Oh, dear Lord. I'm comparing them at this stage of their careers from a arm talent stand point and their football acumen. They both had the ability to stand big in the pocket and make every NFL throw. And they are both very football savvy.

I never threw in the NFL Peyton.

And spare me the college records. Manning had considerably more talent to work with on both sides of the ball. Want to go through it? Jamaal Lewis. Peerles Price. Marcus Nash. Chad Clifton. Leonard Little. Shaun Ellis. Terry Fair. Etc. Do I need to go any further? Those guys are pros. And I'm sure I am forgetting some.



No player on the field has as much to do with wins and losses as the QB. And while wins as a starting pitcher (replying to Ten Ton Hammer as well with this post) has been an overrated metric in baseball history, it also isn't without merit. There is a reason why great QBs win a lot, it's because it has a lot to do with them. Often the players change around them but they still win. Rodgers, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben. In the course of the game, they do what it takes to win, no matter what the other limitations or strengths are on the team. The W-L record for a QB has some relevancy. It isn't the only thing. It is just one metric, but it is relevant.

And I don't care if you set that aside, Rosen is no Peyton Manning as a prospect. Peyton played 45 career games. In 1994, after he was named a starter, he never missed another start in his collegiate career. His sophomore year of '95 Tennessee went 11-1. Don't talk to me about Florida, either. Spurrier's teams were absolute powerhouses back then, they had the best athletes and players in the country.

Rosen never beat Stanford or USC. Rosen lost 13 times in 30 starts. And I can't even give him credit for winning the Cal game, because he only played the first half before leaving due to concussion in a one score game. Devon Modster finished the game and did enough to give UCLA the victory.

After the '96 season, Peyton had already graduated with his Bachelor's degree and was projected as the #1 overall pick in the draft, and still came back for his senior season. Rosen "got held out" of his bowl game and left in his junior year (and that is fine), but his legacy is of losing just about every big game and missing games to injury.

In Peyton's senior season, he led his team back to finish an 11-1 season with the SEC championship before losing to #2 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl. He was a consensus 1st team All-American, won the Davey O'Brien Award, the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award, the Maxwell Award, and the SEC Player of the Year Award, and was runner-up in the Heisman to Charles Woodson, and many feel Peyton was robbed.

The following is a list of Josh Rosen's major college awards:

.

Peyton's worst college season is comparable to Rosen's best college season.

As prospects, Peyton is superior in every meaningful way except that, Rosen probably had a stronger arm. That's it.


This is silly. Why? The year after Peyton left Tee Martin and UT won the national championship. If youíd like, I can list the talent carryover from Peytonís final year. So I guess if I extrapolate your logic, I can conclude Martin was more accomplished than Peyton since he elevated his team to greater heights.

And Danny Wuerffel won even more awards at Florida than Manning. I guess heís a better QB, too. Since you are so fascinated by awards...

Again, Iím comparing Rosen and Manning stylistically - the way they throw, manage the game, think the game, etc. But I guess if you canít see it, you canít really see...
Mayfield over the field  
GiantGrit : 3/13/2018 1:44 am : link
Why? Because the stats say heís the best of the bunch. I believe he has the best intangibles. He was supposedly the smartest qb in the film room at the combine. His team consistently won.
143.8 % passer rating when kept clean
ďWell he had all day to throw especially behind Orlando BrownĒ

111.6 % passer rating under presurre

Who had the best passer rating when under pressure the last 3 years? Baker Mayfield.

He torched TCUís defense twice, torched OSU in the horseshoe and played a very good game against Oklahoma.

His arm has now officially tested out as above average. He is the most accurate passer. No injury concerns. Heís going to be a stud. I look at what Case Keenum did this past year. I see at least Case Keenum but with an arm that can make any throw. Gettleman wants guys who hate to lose. In my opinion, its Mayfield and then everyone else in that category. He came out and said he wants to play in New York because ďhe thrives under pressureĒ.

With that said, its Mayfield and Rosen and then everyone else for me. Darnold - trouble reading the field at times, plus the long wind up and the turnovers.
Allen - maybe shortsighted but a 56 % completion rating in the Mountain West scares me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen is to Peyton Manning as  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 3:52 am : link
In comment 13860932 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13860922 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 13860904 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 13860893 allstarjim said:


Quote:



I'm pretty sure you don't want to compare Rosen with Manning in their college careers. Manning went 39-6 as a starter in 4 years. Rosen lost 5 games just last season in 11 starts. If we want to dig into numbers, it doesn't get better for Rosen. If you want to compare arm talent, Peyton's arm is being severely underrated. He could spin it, and had postage-stamp accuracy, at all levels. His ability to hit receivers deep in stride consistently I believe to be unparalleled in NFL history. He could also actually throw on the move and do so accurately. Can Rosen throw the ball farther than Manning could? Yes, probably. But that's not to say Manning didn't have a very good arm, because he did, and he could unleash a pretty good fastball. I think some don't realize how good Peyton was in his Tennessee days and in his prime NFL years.

But what made Manning so great...his intangibles and leadership, his accuracy, his competitive fire, decision-making, and he excelled at his preparation. Does Rosen have some of these qualities? Perhaps. At the Peyton Manning level? Preparation maybe. But to compare him to one of the best QBs of all-time? He's not on that level as a prospect, sorry. He's just not.



Oh, dear Lord. I'm comparing them at this stage of their careers from a arm talent stand point and their football acumen. They both had the ability to stand big in the pocket and make every NFL throw. And they are both very football savvy.

I never threw in the NFL Peyton.

And spare me the college records. Manning had considerably more talent to work with on both sides of the ball. Want to go through it? Jamaal Lewis. Peerles Price. Marcus Nash. Chad Clifton. Leonard Little. Shaun Ellis. Terry Fair. Etc. Do I need to go any further? Those guys are pros. And I'm sure I am forgetting some.



No player on the field has as much to do with wins and losses as the QB. And while wins as a starting pitcher (replying to Ten Ton Hammer as well with this post) has been an overrated metric in baseball history, it also isn't without merit. There is a reason why great QBs win a lot, it's because it has a lot to do with them. Often the players change around them but they still win. Rodgers, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben. In the course of the game, they do what it takes to win, no matter what the other limitations or strengths are on the team. The W-L record for a QB has some relevancy. It isn't the only thing. It is just one metric, but it is relevant.

And I don't care if you set that aside, Rosen is no Peyton Manning as a prospect. Peyton played 45 career games. In 1994, after he was named a starter, he never missed another start in his collegiate career. His sophomore year of '95 Tennessee went 11-1. Don't talk to me about Florida, either. Spurrier's teams were absolute powerhouses back then, they had the best athletes and players in the country.

Rosen never beat Stanford or USC. Rosen lost 13 times in 30 starts. And I can't even give him credit for winning the Cal game, because he only played the first half before leaving due to concussion in a one score game. Devon Modster finished the game and did enough to give UCLA the victory.

After the '96 season, Peyton had already graduated with his Bachelor's degree and was projected as the #1 overall pick in the draft, and still came back for his senior season. Rosen "got held out" of his bowl game and left in his junior year (and that is fine), but his legacy is of losing just about every big game and missing games to injury.

In Peyton's senior season, he led his team back to finish an 11-1 season with the SEC championship before losing to #2 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl. He was a consensus 1st team All-American, won the Davey O'Brien Award, the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award, the Maxwell Award, and the SEC Player of the Year Award, and was runner-up in the Heisman to Charles Woodson, and many feel Peyton was robbed.

The following is a list of Josh Rosen's major college awards:

.

Peyton's worst college season is comparable to Rosen's best college season.

As prospects, Peyton is superior in every meaningful way except that, Rosen probably had a stronger arm. That's it.




This is silly. Why? The year after Peyton left Tee Martin and UT won the national championship. If youíd like, I can list the talent carryover from Peytonís final year. So I guess if I extrapolate your logic, I can conclude Martin was more accomplished than Peyton since he elevated his team to greater heights.

And Danny Wuerffel won even more awards at Florida than Manning. I guess heís a better QB, too. Since you are so fascinated by awards...

Again, Iím comparing Rosen and Manning stylistically - the way they throw, manage the game, think the game, etc. But I guess if you canít see it, you canít really see...


You're cherry picking individual points when it is the totality of the points of my argument that makes your comparison of Rosen to Peyton Manning silly. Again, you are talking about one of the best QBs ever, and one of the best QB prospects to come out of college ever. Peyton had virtually no red flags or question marks. Rosen has several. They are not in the same class as prospects. Peyton's numbers are way better, durability, leadership, accomplishments, and yes, W-L record/legacy of winning...all better than Rosen.
allstarjim....  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 9:02 am : link
For someone who seems pretty insightful about the game, Iím very surprised you canít the stylistic comparison between the Rosen and Manning. And wonít concede, despite all the evidence, both have a similar
football IQ.
RE: You're throwing me off, though, TTH  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/13/2018 9:05 am : link
In comment 13860928 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Because in that third group, 13-3 is impossible in college.


Typo. 13-1.
RE: allstarjim....  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 12:22 pm : link
In comment 13861263 bw in dc said:
Quote:
For someone who seems pretty insightful about the game, Iím very surprised you canít the stylistic comparison between the Rosen and Manning. And wonít concede, despite all the evidence, both have a similar
football IQ.


Stylistically, in terms of how they play the game, of course I see that. But Peyton is on a different level even if you compare them as just college QBs. And how do you know that Rosen has a similar football IQ to Peyton? What evidence do you bring to make this claim. I think Rosen is a smart guy, intelligent. But that is different than football IQ. I think that's a very difficult thing to quantify and compare between players for fans. All I'm saying is that Rosen isn't near the prospect Peyton was. He's similar in play style, sure. But Peyton did everything better. That's the point.
RE: Mayfield over the field  
Thegratefulhead : 3/13/2018 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13860938 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
Why? Because the stats say heís the best of the bunch. I believe he has the best intangibles. He was supposedly the smartest qb in the film room at the combine. His team consistently won.
143.8 % passer rating when kept clean
ďWell he had all day to throw especially behind Orlando BrownĒ

111.6 % passer rating under presurre

Who had the best passer rating when under pressure the last 3 years? Baker Mayfield.

He torched TCUís defense twice, torched OSU in the horseshoe and played a very good game against Oklahoma.

His arm has now officially tested out as above average. He is the most accurate passer. No injury concerns. Heís going to be a stud. I look at what Case Keenum did this past year. I see at least Case Keenum but with an arm that can make any throw. Gettleman wants guys who hate to lose. In my opinion, its Mayfield and then everyone else in that category. He came out and said he wants to play in New York because ďhe thrives under pressureĒ.

With that said, its Mayfield and Rosen and then everyone else for me. Darnold - trouble reading the field at times, plus the long wind up and the turnovers.
Allen - maybe shortsighted but a 56 % completion rating in the Mountain West scares me.
Wow, completely agree with everything here. Strong post.
RE: RE: allstarjim....  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 1:53 pm : link
In comment 13861949 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment

Stylistically, in terms of how they play the game, of course I see that. But Peyton is on a different level even if you compare them as just college QBs. And how do you know that Rosen has a similar football IQ to Peyton? What evidence do you bring to make this claim. I think Rosen is a smart guy, intelligent. But that is different than football IQ. I think that's a very difficult thing to quantify and compare between players for fans. All I'm saying is that Rosen isn't near the prospect Peyton was. He's similar in play style, sure. But Peyton did everything better. That's the point.


I think it's been fairly well chronicled - especially by Milton ;) - that he processes information on the field at
a very high level and knows exactly where to go with the ball. He will get greedy at times because he trusts his arm so much.

For example, it's been expressed by Kirk Herbstreit, Trent Dilfer and his coach Jim Mora, Jr. Dilfer runs a camp for high school QB stars - Elite 11 - and he and his staff were extremely impressed with Rosen's mind. It should be available over on Youtube.

I really think you are looking back at Manning the prospect through a lens that includes his pro resume. He was knocked for some big game struggles at UT.

And this point that Florida was this much better team talent wise to UT is just flat out wrong. Got look at those All-SEC team during the Manning era. They are littered with top guys in both sides of the ball and right there is numbers with UF. And many of those UT players - again - were pretty damn pros. So you are just wrong when you make that claim.

Enjoyed kicking it around with you...
But I'm not looking at Peyton  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 4:14 pm : link
through the lens as a pro. I am looking at him for how he was viewed as a prospect. He was looked at as a #1 overall pick in a really good draft, with another QB that was considered to be a #1 overall talent, AND he was that for two years in a row. Rosen is not viewed that way.

And yes, he has a good mind, and yes, Milton has waxed poetic about him in just about every way. I expect that. I get he's smart. But we are talking about onfield IQ and decision making. But look, I am working on something that will probably take the shine off. Probably will be done on Thursday. This is onfield analysis...the hype is exceeding what he has displayed on the field as a QB. Mayock has said the same thing about questioning some of his decision making and his deep accuracy has been questioned (I question this as well, I don't think it's very good, and there is plenty of tape to support this assertion).
BTW, you couldn't be more wrong  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 4:29 pm : link
about the quality of rosters between the mid-late 90's Gators and Tennessee. Yes, Tennessee had NFL players. Florida had future NFL Pro Bowlers on both sides of the ball. They had 5 or 6 future NFL starters just on defense...at minimum. They won the National Championship while Peyton was at UT and was a threat to do so every year. I don't know why you would obsess over him not beating one of the great powerhouse teams of the 1990's...they were an elite program that was killing recruiting during that time period...a better program than UT. It's strange because Peyton won big games. Including an SEC championship while he was there and 3 of 4 bowl games...but you have to play in a bowl game to win one. Rosen lost almost every big game he's played in. To say Rosen is not as good a prospect as Peyton Manning is not a knock on Rosen. There's been exactly ONE guy since Peyton Manning enter the NFL as highly regarded a QB prospect as Peyton. ONE. That's Andrew Luck. This has nothing to do with Peyton's career, it's objectively looking at how good Peyton Manning was as a prospect. To say that Rosen is on that level is to say he's a better QB prospect than every other QB except for Luck since Peyton, and he's (arguably) not even the best in his own draft class. We're talking a fantasy-land, fairy tale comparison, re-write of Rosen's college career. It's unfettered BS, and would be hilarious if I didn't know you were serious.
RE: But I'm not looking at Peyton  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 5:01 pm : link
In comment 13862650 allstarjim said:
Quote:


And yes, he has a good mind, and yes, Milton has waxed poetic about him in just about every way. I expect that. I get he's smart. But we are talking about onfield IQ and decision making. But look, I am working on something that will probably take the shine off. Probably will be done on Thursday. This is onfield analysis...the hype is exceeding what he has displayed on the field as a QB. Mayock has said the same thing about questioning some of his decision making and his deep accuracy has been questioned (I question this as well, I don't think it's very good, and there is plenty of tape to support this assertion).


I'm always a bit leery of decision making analysis because we really don't know the play, the progressions, and if the receivers ran the right routes. College teams don't practice nearly as much as the pros so there is a higher # of missed assignments...
Okay, if you want to go down this road...  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 5:24 pm : link
Manning played with he following players who made the Pro Bowl team

Travis Henry, RB
Jamal Lewis, RB
Chad Clifton, OL
Shaun Ellis, DL
Leonard Little, DL/LB
Terry Fair, ST/KOR
Al Wilson, LB

You really need to think before you write on this stuff...
That's it?  
allstarjim : 3/13/2018 11:28 pm : link
Over 4 years?
RE: That's it?  
bw in dc : 3/14/2018 12:10 am : link
In comment 13863628 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Over 4 years?


Do you want me to list all the NFL starters that Manning played with? Because thatís a large number. Players drafted? Because thatís an even larger number.

Again, these are JUST pro bowl players.

Do you want me to list the Gator Pro Bowl players from that era next? Just give me the nod...



From 1994 to 1997...  
bw in dc : 3/14/2018 12:24 am : link
Florida had three players drafted who eventually became pro bowl players...

Jevon Kearse
Kevin Carter
Fred Taylor



I can go all day...  
bw in dc : 3/14/2018 12:27 am : link
Do want to go high school All Americans next?

How many UT got versus UF during the Manning era?
How about you check how many  
allstarjim : 3/14/2018 12:42 am : link
Drafted players came out of UF during the Manning years vs how many Peyton played with?
RE: How about you check how many  
bw in dc : 3/14/2018 8:40 am : link
In comment 13863693 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Drafted players came out of UF during the Manning years vs how many Peyton played with?


Itís really close, so grant me +/- 3 margin of error...

31 UT players were drafted that played with Manning
30 UF players were drafted that played during the Manning era

So itís basically a draw.

Iím not sure how old you are, but some perspective. Philip Fuller was a GREAT recruiter. UT had the #1 ranked classes by Tom Lemming in 1994 and 1997. Obviously Spurrier was good too, consistently in the top 10. But Spurrier was a far better Xs and Os guy then Fulmer. His system was ahead of its time. And more often than not, his offensive players in particular didnít perform as well in the pros. Itís a pretty interesting list of QBs, WRs, and RBs who were great at UF but ordinary in the NFL. Our own Ike Hilliard, for example, was really the only WR who was consistently solid...
RE: RE: How about you check how many  
allstarjim : 3/14/2018 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13863925 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13863693 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Drafted players came out of UF during the Manning years vs how many Peyton played with?



Itís really close, so grant me +/- 3 margin of error...

31 UT players were drafted that played with Manning
30 UF players were drafted that played during the Manning era

So itís basically a draw.

Iím not sure how old you are, but some perspective. Philip Fuller was a GREAT recruiter. UT had the #1 ranked classes by Tom Lemming in 1994 and 1997. Obviously Spurrier was good too, consistently in the top 10. But Spurrier was a far better Xs and Os guy then Fulmer. His system was ahead of its time. And more often than not, his offensive players in particular didnít perform as well in the pros. Itís a pretty interesting list of QBs, WRs, and RBs who were great at UF but ordinary in the NFL. Our own Ike Hilliard, for example, was really the only WR who was consistently solid...


I'm 41, was big into college football at the time (moreso then than even now), and remember thinking that UT never really had a chance against UF. UT had a great QB, but UF had a much more complete team. Also live/lived in Florida, so followed UF and FSU pretty closely, and that might also cause me to be biased. I am not a Gator fan, however, I'm a Seminoles guy. But seen a lot of them both over the decades.

I don't want to take the time to double check your work, but I think your numbers are off. I think UF had more draft picks. I do concede I could be wrong on this point, but my perception was always that UF was a much better team. I have good friends that are huge UT fans and at the time my friends and I would always give them grief.
BTW  
allstarjim : 3/14/2018 1:55 pm : link
I'm sure you meant Fulmer, not Fuller.
Tennessee draftees from 1995-2001  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2018 2:33 pm : link
45....extending it out to 2001 includes players who were freshman in 1997, Peyton's senior season. Of those 45:

-7 first round picks
-11 second round picks
-6 third round picks
Florida draft picks from the same period  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2018 2:34 pm : link
36

-11 first round picks (Ike Hilliard!)
-3 second round picks
-6 third round picks
Link - ( New Window )
don't know where the Tennessee link went  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2018 2:35 pm : link
here it is again
Link - ( New Window )
Well  
allstarjim : 3/15/2018 5:00 pm : link
thanks for posting, perhaps I was wrong about Tennessee's program, and I'll take your word for it because I have no desire to actually research that myself.

I still don't think that is relevant at all to the discussion of Peyton as a prospect. The fact is that UF still had one of the best programs in the country at the time, and not defeating them for 4 years wasn't a huge red flag on Peyton as a prospect. He was still regarded as a top QB prospect over multiple drafts and his status as a prospect has only been rivaled by Andrew Luck since.

It really doesn't change the conversation re: Rosen as a prospect compared to Manning, still a silly comparison. Rosen hasn't defeated several teams during his more abridged collegiate career but nobody is flagging him for it, except to say that he wasn't won enough generally (a statement I think IS a red flag with him). For example, Rosen didn't beat USC or Stanford in his career, going 0-5 against them. But I don't see that brought up as a ding on him as a prospect. Peyton went 39-6 as a starter, an .846 winning percentage, which is good. Rosen with a .566 winning percentage. Again, not the most important or only criteria of evaluation but it's a part of it. Peyton never missed a game at Tennessee. Peyton had better career completion percentage numbers. There were no questions as to Peyton's leadership. Every one of these are differentiation points with Manning and Rosen and there are others. So the totality of the argument of Rosen being similar to Manning really seems to be that they are both similar in stature, have about the same ability as a runner, and both very proficient in there throwing mechanics. I think you can't say that they are close to being equals as prospects because the evaluation doesn't stop there. Rosen isn't nearly as accurate as Peyton was, for example, particularly when it comes to deep accuracy.

And again, Rosen is kind of a one-year wonder. You can't really rely on his 2016 numbers, which were decent, because he only played 6 games, and his 2015 numbers were good, not great.

Anyway, as I said I am working on a little pre-draft project that will dive deeper into the kind of competitor and intangibles that Rosen has, and will post soon. I think it will be of interest and I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible.
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