Art Stapleton (@art_stapleton)
3/12/18, 8:40 PM
Hearing All-Pro guard Andrew Norwell is down to three finalists: #49ers, #Colts and #NYGiants, per league source.
But look at it through this lense - play in NY with a QB on the downside in a division with the defending SB champs, a very solid Dallas team, and a C team in the Skins.
Or...
Go to a team like the 9ers with a bright, young, stud QB under a GM and ownership that has resources and a clear plan. And they have what appears to be one of the brightest offensive minds in the game. Plus, Seattle is in re-build mode, Arizona looks years away, and the jury is out if the Rams are for real or one-hit wonders...
we still have plenty of broken parts, including a dying one at QB.
Spend the money on developing 3 young aggressive guys at 3 different positions versus winning one bidding war on Norwell.
Its a better investment...
Yes, let's pay less and "develop" them like we developed Flowers, and Hart, and all the other crappy talents we have.
I don't know what world you live in where GMs are magically able to do bargain deals with players who turn out to be really good after they "develop." If you want premium talent on the FA market you have to pay for it (or get super lucky).
But look at it through this lense - play in NY with a QB on the downside in a division with the defending SB champs, a very solid Dallas team, and a C team in the Skins.
Or...
Go to a team like the 9ers with a bright, young, stud QB under a GM and ownership that has resources and a clear plan. And they have what appears to be one of the brightest offensive minds in the game. Plus, Seattle is in re-build mode, Arizona looks years away, and the jury is out if the Rams are for real or one-hit wonders...
Seems like an easy sell to me...
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
I hear you. That's fair. But if you had to hitch your wagon right now to a tandem, who would it be?
Everyone of those teams are on the rise with young QB’s even the injured guy. The Giants can’t begin to offer the up front money or more likely length of contract for a guard. Very easily both of those teams can present 15 mil the first year with another 26+ mil in the second and third years. It then becomes a simple fact it’s not about the money but it’s really all about the money. The Giants can’t and should not even think twice about doing something outrageous like that with all the needs this team has.
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
I hear you. That's fair. But if you had to hitch your wagon right now to a tandem, who would it be?
Garappolo & Shannahan? Or Manning & Shurmur?
Wtf have garap or shanahan ever done ? I'll take shurmur who has had a successful offense, Eli who has won super bowls, the Giants who have been relevant, a GM I know is gonna work to make us better, a GM who gave me my shot, a more talented offense(roster wise). Sorry but it isn't close.
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
I hear you. That's fair. But if you had to hitch your wagon right now to a tandem, who would it be?
Garappolo & Shannahan? Or Manning & Shurmur?
Personally I’m looking at it like Garappolo & Shanahan vs Darnold/Rosen & Shurmur. That’s a difficult choice but I also spend a lot of time in the Bay Area and the whole area is a total mess compared to NY/NJ with higher taxes. Not a place I’d like to live (I have to go for work)
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
I hear you. That's fair. But if you had to hitch your wagon right now to a tandem, who would it be?
Garappolo & Shannahan? Or Manning & Shurmur?
What about the GM who signed him, won his division each of Norwell's first 2 years, and took him to the SB? Or John Lynch?
we still have plenty of broken parts, including a dying one at QB.
Spend the money on developing 3 young aggressive guys at 3 different positions versus winning one bidding war on Norwell.
Its a better investment...
Yes, let's pay less and "develop" them like we developed Flowers, and Hart, and all the other crappy talents we have.
I don't know what world you live in where GMs are magically able to do bargain deals with players who turn out to be really good after they "develop." If you want premium talent on the FA market you have to pay for it (or get super lucky).
Well, guess where Norwell came from? A GM found him and signed him. Funny, that GM is now our GM.
Can’t the giants sign 2 of the next tier of FA lineman Â
For the price of this guy? Wouldn’t that make as much sense or even more sense?. Starting to think this guy isn’t worth it due to risk of injury as a lineman.
Wtf have garap or shanahan ever done ? I'll take shurmur who has had a successful offense, Eli who has won super bowls, the Giants who have been relevant, a GM I know is gonna work to make us better, a GM who gave me my shot, a more talented offense(roster wise). Sorry but it isn't close.
Gee, I don't know. Shannahan recently was the OC for the Falcons who got to a SB. Shurmur done that? Garappolo went 5-0 playing with me, you, and Eric at WR & TE. And he was 2-1 in New England. And he's 26, and he can move. Eli is 37 and can't move.
And let me know in the process of keeping score where a team gets credit for a player being a 2-time SB winner, and that magically adds bonus points...
to get him. That’s it. He has somewhat of an edge . There are always competitive disadvantages . The 48ers frankly look more promising right now. So craft a good deal, get creative and sign your main guy .
Personally I’m looking at it like Garappolo & Shanahan vs Darnold/Rosen & Shurmur. That’s a difficult choice but I also spend a lot of time in the Bay Area and the whole area is a total mess compared to NY/NJ with higher taxes. Not a place I’d like to live (I have to go for work)
Well, I'm making the assumption that Eli has been anointed the starter, come hell or high water. Seems to be the declaration from Jints Central. So, I didn't fashion your combination into my proposal...
Agreed that the Bay Area isn't Oxford, MS for a low standard of living... ;)
He could block for 2 mobile QB’s or and old tree. Â
Also, hardly any other OL talent around him to help him pull weight, and in a very critical media market at that. Plus we have the least $ to offer. All that just to stick with your former GM? He’s as good as gone.
The Giants are an awful team with a terrible locker room, a quarterback with a foot in retirement, and a questionable general direction. Viewing them otherwise is delusional.
What about the GM who signed him, won his division each of Norwell's first 2 years, and took him to the SB? Or John Lynch?
GM isn't on the field trying to win games. But if you think loyalty is somehow a factor, then, yes, maybe that will sway Norwell...Personally, I think a coach would be more influential there. A person with real day to day communication. How often are linemen talking to the GM?
Anyone saying otherwise is fooling themselves. I hate saying it myself but it’s true: their roster is stronger, their division isn’t as daunting, they have a QB who, let’s be honest, likely out plays/out performs Eli in 2018, and they can pay more $$.
we still have plenty of broken parts, including a dying one at QB.
Spend the money on developing 3 young aggressive guys at 3 different positions versus winning one bidding war on Norwell.
Its a better investment...
Yes, let's pay less and "develop" them like we developed Flowers, and Hart, and all the other crappy talents we have.
I don't know what world you live in where GMs are magically able to do bargain deals with players who turn out to be really good after they "develop." If you want premium talent on the FA market you have to pay for it (or get super lucky).
I dont believe in paying for premium talent in Free Agency. You pay for premium talent that you draft and/or develop.
What about the GM who signed him, won his division each of Norwell's first 2 years, and took him to the SB? Or John Lynch?
GM isn't on the field trying to win games. But if you think loyalty is somehow a factor, then, yes, maybe that will sway Norwell...Personally, I think a coach would be more influential there. A person with real day to day communication. How often are linemen talking to the GM?
I'm talking about track record more than loyalty. You can sign with a guy who built a team into a division winner and Super Bowl contender (which you saw first hand) or a 2nd year GM. All 3 clubs were in contention for the #1 overall pick last year so none of the rosters are that much further ahead than the others.
Anyone saying otherwise is fooling themselves. I hate saying it myself but it’s true: their roster is stronger, their division isn’t as daunting, they have a QB who, let’s be honest, likely out plays/out performs Eli in 2018, and they can pay more $$.
He’s not signing a one year deal. Both SF and NYG have extremely remote chances of playing in the super bowl next year. Gettlemen built much of the team that landed him in a super bowl (and found him after all) so given a 4 year deal it’s not unreasonable to think he trusts Gettlemen to turn things around quickly. Plus, if the Giants are intent on moving on from Eli after the season they’ll have lots of cap flexibility moving forward.
We're in deep third place. Prepare to be disappointed. I also frankly don't want to pay that kind of money of Norwell. It reeks of desperation.
Look at where this team has been for the last handful of seasons.
Professional teams think of 'rebuilding' as a dirty word that affects ticket sales, so they will never say it publicly, but this team has one winning season in 5 years. Not calling it desperation is being kind.
but they were far from the highest paid at their positions. Plax, Ohara, Pierce, Robbins, and even that moron David Bass weren't bidding wars. I think McKenzie at RT might have been close to highest price, but that was it.
You all have gotten so thirsty for winning that you'll drink whatever is put in front of you...
but they were far from the highest paid at their positions. Plax, Ohara, Pierce, Robbins, and even that moron David Bass weren't bidding wars. I think McKenzie at RT might have been close to highest price, but that was it.
You all have gotten so thirsty for winning that you'll drink whatever is put in front of you...
There's a big difference between saying you don't want to overpay and saying you don't believe in paying for premium talent. They're not the same things. The Giants have always been pretty good with contracts that fit their needs, but when it's clear that you can't draft (and they haven't), you can either eat it and spend a few years in the 2-5 win range and build the team only through draft picks, or try to build a team.
The Giants are an awful team with a terrible locker room, a quarterback with a foot in retirement, and a questionable general direction. Viewing them otherwise is delusional.
Former All-Pros on the roster:
Jenkins
Collins
Ogletree
Snacks
Vernon
JPP
Then you’ve got Eli, OBJ, Ingram, and Shep on offense.
The team sucked last year but they’re significantly more talented than you give them credit for. Rebuild the OL/add a few pieces and the Giants can compete.
I'm not sure how interested but they've inquired.. Didn't hear anything on the 49ers in regards to Norwell. Heard they like two Redskins - Trent Murphy (they like a lot) and Terrelle Pryor. Murphy actually got a lot of attention from multiple teams, Redskins are trying to keep him off the market.
While I'm here.. I mentioned a few weeks ago that Jack Mewhort's named slipped through the cracks.. well Senio Kelemete is another name that I recently heard. Not sure how interested NYG is but they were names that created discussion at some point.
The Giants are an awful team with a terrible locker room, a quarterback with a foot in retirement, and a questionable general direction. Viewing them otherwise is delusional.
Former All-Pros on the roster:
Jenkins
Collins
Ogletree
Snacks
Vernon
JPP
Then you’ve got Eli, OBJ, Ingram, and Shep on offense.
The team sucked last year but they’re significantly more talented than you give them credit for. Rebuild the OL/add a few pieces and the Giants can compete.
Negative. This is a bad bad football team. It has no depth, no OL, no RBs, one LB, one CAB we can count on and one safety we can count on 75% of the time. Yay we have a big NT. This team is putrid talent wise you could not be more wrong.
Hubbard has been mentioned by many as an overall real solid RT, with added experience at LT in case Flowers collapses.
Not a lot of sample on Fleming, and you always worry about the NE guys impacting on new teams, but he's a good Plan B at RT.
If we got one of those OTs to start, Jeremiah Sirles of Minny could follow Shurmur as a multi-positional back-up.
Fulton has played all the interior spots in Reid's system. Shurmur would have good input into his system fit. Could be our starting C, or kick to G if we get lucky and land a top center prospect like Daniels or Price atop Rd2
Norwell will be protecting Blake Bortles this season. Â
But look at it through this lense - play in NY with a QB on the downside in a division with the defending SB champs, a very solid Dallas team, and a C team in the Skins.
Or...
Go to a team like the 9ers with a bright, young, stud QB under a GM and ownership that has resources and a clear plan. And they have what appears to be one of the brightest offensive minds in the game. Plus, Seattle is in re-build mode, Arizona looks years away, and the jury is out if the Rams are for real or one-hit wonders...
Seems like an easy sell to me...
Spend the money on developing 3 young aggressive guys at 3 different positions versus winning one bidding war on Norwell.
Its a better investment...
Yes, let's pay less and "develop" them like we developed Flowers, and Hart, and all the other crappy talents we have.
I don't know what world you live in where GMs are magically able to do bargain deals with players who turn out to be really good after they "develop." If you want premium talent on the FA market you have to pay for it (or get super lucky).
But look at it through this lense - play in NY with a QB on the downside in a division with the defending SB champs, a very solid Dallas team, and a C team in the Skins.
Or...
Go to a team like the 9ers with a bright, young, stud QB under a GM and ownership that has resources and a clear plan. And they have what appears to be one of the brightest offensive minds in the game. Plus, Seattle is in re-build mode, Arizona looks years away, and the jury is out if the Rams are for real or one-hit wonders...
Seems like an easy sell to me...
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
I hear you. That's fair. But if you had to hitch your wagon right now to a tandem, who would it be?
Garappolo & Shannahan? Or Manning & Shurmur?
Quote:
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
I hear you. That's fair. But if you had to hitch your wagon right now to a tandem, who would it be?
Garappolo & Shannahan? Or Manning & Shurmur?
Wtf have garap or shanahan ever done ? I'll take shurmur who has had a successful offense, Eli who has won super bowls, the Giants who have been relevant, a GM I know is gonna work to make us better, a GM who gave me my shot, a more talented offense(roster wise). Sorry but it isn't close.
Agree with this. I’d like them to sign Norwell. But you can’t go crazy.
Quote:
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
I hear you. That's fair. But if you had to hitch your wagon right now to a tandem, who would it be?
Garappolo & Shannahan? Or Manning & Shurmur?
Personally I’m looking at it like Garappolo & Shanahan vs Darnold/Rosen & Shurmur. That’s a difficult choice but I also spend a lot of time in the Bay Area and the whole area is a total mess compared to NY/NJ with higher taxes. Not a place I’d like to live (I have to go for work)
Quote:
Garappolo only did it for a handful of games. It’s certainly not a given that he’s going to play at a high level for the next 5 years. I’d also argue that Shurmur is as bright an offensive mind if not more so than Shanahan. He made Case freakin Keenum into a dark horse MVP candidate after all. The Giants also have Norwell’s previous offensive coordinator who may have helped him to become an All Pro for all we know.
I hear you. That's fair. But if you had to hitch your wagon right now to a tandem, who would it be?
Garappolo & Shannahan? Or Manning & Shurmur?
What about the GM who signed him, won his division each of Norwell's first 2 years, and took him to the SB? Or John Lynch?
Quote:
we still have plenty of broken parts, including a dying one at QB.
Spend the money on developing 3 young aggressive guys at 3 different positions versus winning one bidding war on Norwell.
Its a better investment...
Yes, let's pay less and "develop" them like we developed Flowers, and Hart, and all the other crappy talents we have.
I don't know what world you live in where GMs are magically able to do bargain deals with players who turn out to be really good after they "develop." If you want premium talent on the FA market you have to pay for it (or get super lucky).
Well, guess where Norwell came from? A GM found him and signed him. Funny, that GM is now our GM.
Wtf have garap or shanahan ever done ? I'll take shurmur who has had a successful offense, Eli who has won super bowls, the Giants who have been relevant, a GM I know is gonna work to make us better, a GM who gave me my shot, a more talented offense(roster wise). Sorry but it isn't close.
Gee, I don't know. Shannahan recently was the OC for the Falcons who got to a SB. Shurmur done that? Garappolo went 5-0 playing with me, you, and Eric at WR & TE. And he was 2-1 in New England. And he's 26, and he can move. Eli is 37 and can't move.
And let me know in the process of keeping score where a team gets credit for a player being a 2-time SB winner, and that magically adds bonus points...
Not even close? Really?
Personally I’m looking at it like Garappolo & Shanahan vs Darnold/Rosen & Shurmur. That’s a difficult choice but I also spend a lot of time in the Bay Area and the whole area is a total mess compared to NY/NJ with higher taxes. Not a place I’d like to live (I have to go for work)
Well, I'm making the assumption that Eli has been anointed the starter, come hell or high water. Seems to be the declaration from Jints Central. So, I didn't fashion your combination into my proposal...
Agreed that the Bay Area isn't Oxford, MS for a low standard of living... ;)
What about the GM who signed him, won his division each of Norwell's first 2 years, and took him to the SB? Or John Lynch?
GM isn't on the field trying to win games. But if you think loyalty is somehow a factor, then, yes, maybe that will sway Norwell...Personally, I think a coach would be more influential there. A person with real day to day communication. How often are linemen talking to the GM?
Quote:
we still have plenty of broken parts, including a dying one at QB.
Spend the money on developing 3 young aggressive guys at 3 different positions versus winning one bidding war on Norwell.
Its a better investment...
Yes, let's pay less and "develop" them like we developed Flowers, and Hart, and all the other crappy talents we have.
I don't know what world you live in where GMs are magically able to do bargain deals with players who turn out to be really good after they "develop." If you want premium talent on the FA market you have to pay for it (or get super lucky).
I dont believe in paying for premium talent in Free Agency. You pay for premium talent that you draft and/or develop.
Get lucky?? get serious...
Quote:
What about the GM who signed him, won his division each of Norwell's first 2 years, and took him to the SB? Or John Lynch?
GM isn't on the field trying to win games. But if you think loyalty is somehow a factor, then, yes, maybe that will sway Norwell...Personally, I think a coach would be more influential there. A person with real day to day communication. How often are linemen talking to the GM?
I'm talking about track record more than loyalty. You can sign with a guy who built a team into a division winner and Super Bowl contender (which you saw first hand) or a 2nd year GM. All 3 clubs were in contention for the #1 overall pick last year so none of the rosters are that much further ahead than the others.
He’s not signing a one year deal. Both SF and NYG have extremely remote chances of playing in the super bowl next year. Gettlemen built much of the team that landed him in a super bowl (and found him after all) so given a 4 year deal it’s not unreasonable to think he trusts Gettlemen to turn things around quickly. Plus, if the Giants are intent on moving on from Eli after the season they’ll have lots of cap flexibility moving forward.
We're in deep third place. Prepare to be disappointed. I also frankly don't want to pay that kind of money of Norwell. It reeks of desperation.
Look at where this team has been for the last handful of seasons.
Professional teams think of 'rebuilding' as a dirty word that affects ticket sales, so they will never say it publicly, but this team has one winning season in 5 years. Not calling it desperation is being kind.
I dont believe in paying for premium talent in Free Agency. You pay for premium talent that you draft and/or develop.
Why take a hardline stance on that? Both the 07 and 11 teams were supported by paying for premium talent.
Cutting yourself off from an entire means of roster construction is counterproductive.
Quote:
I dont believe in paying for premium talent in Free Agency. You pay for premium talent that you draft and/or develop.
Why take a hardline stance on that? Both the 07 and 11 teams were supported by paying for premium talent.
Cutting yourself off from an entire means of roster construction is counterproductive.
Bidding wars are not conducive to building a productive team. Cap space and overpaying are not allies to building a winning team...
You all have gotten so thirsty for winning that you'll drink whatever is put in front of you...
You all have gotten so thirsty for winning that you'll drink whatever is put in front of you...
There's a big difference between saying you don't want to overpay and saying you don't believe in paying for premium talent. They're not the same things. The Giants have always been pretty good with contracts that fit their needs, but when it's clear that you can't draft (and they haven't), you can either eat it and spend a few years in the 2-5 win range and build the team only through draft picks, or try to build a team.
Anyway, going back into history, the giants signed McKenzie to a 7-year contract and the signing bonus was the richest they'd ever given a free agent in team history.
Former All-Pros on the roster:
Jenkins
Collins
Ogletree
Snacks
Vernon
JPP
Then you’ve got Eli, OBJ, Ingram, and Shep on offense.
The team sucked last year but they’re significantly more talented than you give them credit for. Rebuild the OL/add a few pieces and the Giants can compete.
While I'm here.. I mentioned a few weeks ago that Jack Mewhort's named slipped through the cracks.. well Senio Kelemete is another name that I recently heard. Not sure how interested NYG is but they were names that created discussion at some point.
Fulton
Hubbard
and Fleming
Norwell should have some loyalty to both DG and Shula, which goes a long way.....
I do not believe he is a west coast guy as he went to Ohio St, but that would be only hurdle....
At the end of the day, everyone has the same cap. The deal will be in the 13/14 per from any of the teams
We seem to manage the cap well enough.....
...strikes again.
Thataway!!!
Quote:
The Giants are an awful team with a terrible locker room, a quarterback with a foot in retirement, and a questionable general direction. Viewing them otherwise is delusional.
Former All-Pros on the roster:
Jenkins
Collins
Ogletree
Snacks
Vernon
JPP
Then you’ve got Eli, OBJ, Ingram, and Shep on offense.
The team sucked last year but they’re significantly more talented than you give them credit for. Rebuild the OL/add a few pieces and the Giants can compete.
Fulton
Hubbard
and Fleming
THRILL RIDE likes the way you think, bro!
Hubbard has been mentioned by many as an overall real solid RT, with added experience at LT in case Flowers collapses.
Not a lot of sample on Fleming, and you always worry about the NE guys impacting on new teams, but he's a good Plan B at RT.
If we got one of those OTs to start, Jeremiah Sirles of Minny could follow Shurmur as a multi-positional back-up.
Fulton has played all the interior spots in Reid's system. Shurmur would have good input into his system fit. Could be our starting C, or kick to G if we get lucky and land a top center prospect like Daniels or Price atop Rd2
WOW completely whiffed