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Has Eli regressed?

Tim in VA : 3/13/2018 1:47 pm
It seems to be bandied about as common knowledge that Eli is done, or clearly on the downturn. Personally I disagree. I didn't see a significant drop off in arm strength, decision making, or accuracy. What I did see was poor coaching in every phase, poor game planning and management, poor run and pass blocking on the offensive line, poor ground game, and a lack of receiving talent to a level I have never seen on a Giants team ever! Literally every part of our team failed us miserably, yet many people here seem convinced we can't win with Eli.

I expect many here will say "well I watched him play" as the reason for this conclusion that he's done. To them I ask did you really watch the games and not notice the things outlined above? I don't think I'm making excuses for Eli, rather I think many are making excuses against him.

I do realize he is 37, so there is that factor, but I really don't see the writing on the wall that he has started to decline. I don't see why he can't lead the Giants for the next 2-3 years.

The biggest question I have is how we are going to clean up the rest of the team. The coaching changes seem positive, but we have a long way to go in every other position to contend. Extra picks in this draft would be helpful too. But I'm 100% positive that picking a QB to hold a clipboard with our most impactful draft pick will result in us picking top 5 again in next year's draft.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 1:50 pm : link
He's 37 years old.

It would be strange if he hadn't.

I think when it comes to Eli, most people are simply seeing what they want to see one way or the other.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/13/2018 1:50 pm : link
I would say yes. He's not playing as well as he did 2014-15.
Eli  
Dragon : 3/13/2018 1:51 pm : link
Did he sign with another team or get traded that's all the good news we need about him today.
NO!!!!  
Victor in CT : 3/13/2018 1:52 pm : link
;-)

Yes he's regressed. I think he can still win on a good team. I don't think this is a good team.
His accuracy was atrocious on every level last year  
The_Boss : 3/13/2018 1:52 pm : link
That has nothing to do with who was playing WR. Hell, his dump offs/swing passes to RB’s were usually one hoppers or sailed out of bounds.
And his ball security when getting touched by defenders was totally non existent. He’s about as close to done as one can be.
Eli  
jtgiants : 3/13/2018 1:54 pm : link
Hasn't regressed. Many in the league know he has good football left. Many on this site will eat a lot of crow. Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated
Eric  
Tim in VA : 3/13/2018 1:54 pm : link
So 2014-2015 Eli on 2017 Giants would be a different result? I just don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion. How can you look good under last years' circumstances?
.  
Danny Kanell : 3/13/2018 1:54 pm : link
We have been a bad football team with Eli Manning as the QB for a very long time. Eli isn’t nearly the main reason why. Not even close. There are many reasons more than Eli as to why this team has been bad for so long.

But Eli has regressed. If you choose to not accept it, that’s up to you. I know for many on here, I’ll have to use the disclaimer that he is my favorite Giant of all time so it doesn’t look like I’m an anti Eli guy.

We have a rare opportunity to draft a premier QB (if we believe one is premier) at the top of the draft at a time where our 37 year old QB is in decline. And make no mistake, Eli is in decline and will continue to decline at his age. Add in the fact this roster is nowhere ready to win.
He absolutely  
jvm52106 : 3/13/2018 1:55 pm : link
is declining. The question is how much is him and how much was the system and players around him who didn't fit the system.
RE: Eli  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13862253 jtgiants said:
Quote:
Hasn't regressed. Many in the league know he has good football left. Many on this site will eat a lot of crow. Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated


I have no idea how you can watch this player and claim there's been no regression at all.

The argument should be how much he's regressed - not whether he has or hasn't.

It's clear he's regressed. This is not the same player we saw several years ago no matter how much we want him to be.
Eli is declining but  
Essex : 3/13/2018 1:57 pm : link
how our organization could not get him to sniff another super bowl for six seasons after his second is completely disgraceful. We had a winning qb that in 2011 showed he could carry a team on his own, and we couldn't even find him protection for the next six years. Just disgraceful
nobody can tell  
Chip : 3/13/2018 2:00 pm : link
with the OL and no wr last year and nothing at RB. There was no talent last on offense last year. All he could do last year was take a quick drop and get rid of it quickly . We need the wr to stay healthy and somehow find some Ol who can come in and play.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/13/2018 2:02 pm : link
In comment 13862254 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
So 2014-2015 Eli on 2017 Giants would be a different result? I just don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion. How can you look good under last years' circumstances?


I don't understand your argument. The 2014 and 2015 New York Giants were not good teams. But Eli played better in those years. He was worse in 2016 when they made the playoffs. He was worse last year. Statistically this is fact. But just look at his play on the field.

If you ask me, I'm not sure where he is psychologically right now. He looks skittish to me. The years of playing behind shoddy OL's may have caught up to him.
I've been pretty much in Eli's corner  
DieHard : 3/13/2018 2:02 pm : link
throughout his career (much to the chargin of a lot of Giants friends), but you can't avoid the troubling signs. Just look at some of the game tape from this thread.

InsideThePylon: Pat Shurmur and the Giants

Given the absolute shit show last year was in all aspects, I don't want to overweigh his performance. I also think Shurmur's system will give him a better chance to succeed than he's had in a while. But it's not a reach to assume he's at the point where the negatives will outweigh the positives moving forward, and I fully understand why a lot of people think it would be better for the franchise to move on.
Well, it more than natural to fall of phsyically...  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 2:03 pm : link
Per the NFL actuarial tables, this is when the slide begins.

Eli was never a great mover but he was nimble. He's really lost that.

And you can really see the deterioration in arm strength when he's throwing on the move. It jumps off the screen to me.

He's always had a bad habit of making poor decisions under duress. But sometimes he could throw out of it because of his arm. That option is long gone...

Someone threw a subjective analysis together - here at BBI - over the weekend trying to figure out why certain big name guys were success late in age. The reason that was overlooked was simple - arm strength. Despite the age creep, these guys could still make ALL of the throws. I firmly believe Eli is not blesses with that skill and that's a big reason why he will continue to slide...
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/13/2018 2:03 pm : link
Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.
5 yrs of mediocre qb play  
sundayatone : 3/13/2018 2:04 pm : link
has been the norm,so he has been about the same.
RE: ...  
jvm52106 : 3/13/2018 2:05 pm : link
In comment 13862287 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.


+1 Agreed.. The team needs too much. Can't hold on to the past any longer.
let's see his poor passing wiped out our  
gtt350 : 3/13/2018 2:06 pm : link
entire starting WR lineup
His 2016 was not as good as 14/15  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 2:08 pm : link
so in that instance, yes he has.

I am not even going on 2017 since his team may have been the worst in the league.

This could be his last year as a QB, lets hope he makes it a good one. Lets hope for good health for everyone.
the chubby kid in NC  
sundayatone : 3/13/2018 2:09 pm : link
is about to throw another must defend eli fit.
RE: let's see his poor passing wiped out our  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13862296 gtt350 said:
Quote:
entire starting WR lineup


Is this a serious statement? I have seen it said a lot around BBI - and thought it was a joke.
RE: the chubby kid in NC  
BrettNYG10 : 3/13/2018 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13862305 sundayatone said:
Quote:
is about to throw another must defend eli fit.


CC: GiantFilthy
Asking if Eli has regressed is like asking  
NYSports1 : 3/13/2018 2:12 pm : link
If Ben McAdoo is a terrible HC material....Ummm Hell YEAH

Eli cannot throw a simple screen and his deep throws are gone. What ELi has left is his brain but that can only get you as far when you hear ghosts around you. Many times in the last 2 years Eli has fell without being touched at the fear of getting hit. Once that is in your head you are cooked. I thank Eli for 2 SB wins and how he handled himself as a Giant but I would have traded or released him. I think this team needed to start from scratch when they cleaned house last year.

We are trying to spoon feed an again, ghost hearer, declining qb on a new regime. I am sure that DG and PS are saying the right things to not disrespect Eli but they know they need a new qb that they DRAFTED and can hitch their tenures to. Webb is not their pick and the guys this year are to me superior to Webb. Eli should be traded if he allows it and we should rebuild with a new QB....Those are just facts. No need to make more excuses for Eli and think we are close when this team has been brutal for 6 years and the one year they made the playoffs it was all on the defense not anything Eli did
RE: Eli is declining but  
NYG07 : 3/13/2018 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13862266 Essex said:
Quote:
how our organization could not get him to sniff another super bowl for six seasons after his second is completely disgraceful. We had a winning qb that in 2011 showed he could carry a team on his own, and we couldn't even find him protection for the next six years. Just disgraceful


It is disgraceful, but that is no reason to cling on to the past. We are where we are now. He has definitely declined. His intermediate/deep ball accuracy, always one of his biggest strengths in his prime is just not there anymore.

Eric is right, in 2014 Eli and Odell in the final 8 games were lighting up the NFL, and they carried it into 2015. If you want to blame McAdoo's offense go ahead, I am sure it played a factor. But he did not look remotely to me like the same QB he was even in 2014 and 2015.
RE: RE: the chubby kid in NC  
GiantFilthy : 3/13/2018 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13862316 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862305 sundayatone said:


Quote:


is about to throw another must defend eli fit.



CC: GiantFilthy

Your opinion is in line with the professionals:  
Britt in VA : 3/13/2018 2:15 pm : link
Kevin Gilbride:

Quote:
Gilbride said flatly that “I do not see a significant dropoff” in Manning’s play.

“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.

“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”


Greg Cosell:

Quote:
Cosell on Eli the player: “It’s a bad offense, and has been for a while, and there’s many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. That’s just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that it’s a team with a poor OL. It’s a team that can’t run the football, and Eli is a ‘dependent’ QB – Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the ‘dependent’ parts are totally lacking, and he can’t be successful on any kind of consistent basis. It’s not a function of if he’s lost his ability to throw a football, he’s not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. He’s not lost his ability, but his style of QB’ing...he’s a ‘dependent’ player. There’s nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense that’s bad in every single area.”


Pat Shurmur:

Quote:
“I watched Eli throw a little bit this summer, and I walked away saying, ‘He looked really, really good,’ ’’ Shurmur said. “He looked fit. He was throwing the ball well. The ball had good velocity coming off his hand. And again, I think he’s got years left. How much, I don’t know. But I think he has time left, and I look forward to working with him.’’


Dave Gettleman:

Quote:
"I had an opportunity to watch [Manning's film] because the quarterback is the most important position on the team," Gettleman told reporters, per the team's website. "At the end of the day, it wasn't a mirage. It was not a mirage."


Quote:
General manager Dave Gettleman finally had a chance to watch all of Manning's game tape from 2017, and not just the impressive performance against the Eagles late in the season, and he came away impressed with what he saw. Gettleman didn't outright say it, but it's clear he blames the old offensive scheme, play calling, poor pass protection on the offensive line, injuries at wide receiver, and the lack of a running game for Manning's struggles.

According to Calvin Watkins on Twitter, Gettleman said the Giants have talent and “we will build it one brick at a time." Gettleman also said Manning will return and the Philly game was not a “mirage.” Gettleman made these comments at the Senior Bowl in Mobile as the Giants begin their process of scouting the draft prospects in the 2017 class.


There are more....
Yes but  
giantsFC : 3/13/2018 2:15 pm : link
He can still potentially be a great system QB and game manager. Heck that's still light years ahead of the majority of QB's in the NFL.

As long as their is a QB available that has franchise talent, I hope they draft it and Eli can play a few years as a potential playoff team game manager and then the next era starts.

That is ideal.
This is even a question?  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2018 2:16 pm : link
.
Eli is still good  
Glover : 3/13/2018 2:17 pm : link
give me a break. Its kinda hard to evaluate him over the past 2 seasons. More like impossible. Shit O line, shit offensive scheme. Its just as viable to say he has 2 more Super Bowl MVPs left in him as it is to say he's done.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.
RE: ...  
dk in TX : 3/13/2018 2:17 pm : link
In comment 13862287 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.


I totally agree with you, Eric. We need to take off the blue blinders and start planning for the future viability of this franchise. Like I said in another thread, Eli has done for years. Enough respect for him but we need to move on.
Eli has regressed.  
leatherneck570 : 3/13/2018 2:18 pm : link
It is without a doubt time to upgrade the position. He hasn't played well for a couple of years now.
RE: Your opinion is in line with the professionals:  
NYSports1 : 3/13/2018 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13862326 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Kevin Gilbride:



Quote:


Gilbride said flatly that “I do not see a significant dropoff” in Manning’s play.

“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.

“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”



Greg Cosell:



Quote:


Cosell on Eli the player: “It’s a bad offense, and has been for a while, and there’s many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. That’s just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that it’s a team with a poor OL. It’s a team that can’t run the football, and Eli is a ‘dependent’ QB – Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the ‘dependent’ parts are totally lacking, and he can’t be successful on any kind of consistent basis. It’s not a function of if he’s lost his ability to throw a football, he’s not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. He’s not lost his ability, but his style of QB’ing...he’s a ‘dependent’ player. There’s nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense that’s bad in every single area.”



Pat Shurmur:



Quote:


“I watched Eli throw a little bit this summer, and I walked away saying, ‘He looked really, really good,’ ’’ Shurmur said. “He looked fit. He was throwing the ball well. The ball had good velocity coming off his hand. And again, I think he’s got years left. How much, I don’t know. But I think he has time left, and I look forward to working with him.’’



Dave Gettleman:



Quote:


"I had an opportunity to watch [Manning's film] because the quarterback is the most important position on the team," Gettleman told reporters, per the team's website. "At the end of the day, it wasn't a mirage. It was not a mirage."





Quote:


General manager Dave Gettleman finally had a chance to watch all of Manning's game tape from 2017, and not just the impressive performance against the Eagles late in the season, and he came away impressed with what he saw. Gettleman didn't outright say it, but it's clear he blames the old offensive scheme, play calling, poor pass protection on the offensive line, injuries at wide receiver, and the lack of a running game for Manning's struggles.

According to Calvin Watkins on Twitter, Gettleman said the Giants have talent and “we will build it one brick at a time." Gettleman also said Manning will return and the Philly game was not a “mirage.” Gettleman made these comments at the Senior Bowl in Mobile as the Giants begin their process of scouting the draft prospects in the 2017 class.



There are more....



So you expect PS and DG to say he is cooked?
No longer can carry a team, but can still manage a team  
njm : 3/13/2018 2:20 pm : link
Anyone who thinks that the decline was purely due to eroding skills is crazy. The Manning of the 2 SB wins wouldn't have performed nearly as well playing behind the 2017 OL, with the WRs he had to work with for the last 3/4ers of the season and the RBs he had.
Eli was 5th in the NFL  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 2:20 pm : link
in catchable passes last year.

FWIW.
RE: Eli is still good  
NYSports1 : 3/13/2018 2:20 pm : link
In comment 13862330 Glover said:
Quote:
give me a break. Its kinda hard to evaluate him over the past 2 seasons. More like impossible. Shit O line, shit offensive scheme. Its just as viable to say he has 2 more Super Bowl MVPs left in him as it is to say he's done.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.


Name me the last VERY GOOD QB to lead his team to 14.5 pts per game for 16 games and miss playoffs in 5of6 seasons and the one playoff season he did nothing to contribute
well....  
Britt in VA : 3/13/2018 2:20 pm : link
Quote:
So you expect PS and DG to say he is cooked?


I guess I should go with your observation instead?
yep  
leatherneck570 : 3/13/2018 2:21 pm : link
that's leadership 101. Come into a new organization and tell everyone that the leader of your team is washed up.
I'd say yes...  
BillKo : 3/13/2018 2:21 pm : link
..but not entirely his fault.

Since being drafted, you need to put good players around Eli or he's going to look average IMO.

I still believe if he has good players around him, he'll do very well.

Problem is, the Giants and he are running out of time.

With that, I think he's the perfect bridge to mentor a young QB, and I think that's the plan right now with DG/PS.
I would be dangling Eli to  
mikeygiants : 3/13/2018 2:22 pm : link
Buffalo, Jacksonville...
Recent history  
Thegratefulhead : 3/13/2018 2:22 pm : link
Suggests that even rookie QBs can succeed with a good OL and running game and they cost a whole lot less. If that is what you guys are saying Eli needs, you are actually making the argument that now is the time to move on him. IMHO
RE: well....  
NYSports1 : 3/13/2018 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13862349 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


So you expect PS and DG to say he is cooked?



I guess I should go with your observation instead?


Nope not at all. But new GM and HC are not going to tell the fans and media that Eli cant play and he should be cut
.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 2:23 pm : link
Dave Gettleman and Pat Shurmur have nothing to gain by revealing that they think Eli is regressing to the public.

I would take their comments with a grain of salt.

Actions will speak louder than words. If they pass on a QB @ 2 (or a few spots later), I'll be more inclined to believe them. But for now, there's no reason for them to devalue him. It would kill any potential trade value if they had any interest in keeping that avenue open and it would tilt their draft hand in a major way to insinuate that they think Eli is finished.
RE: RE: Eli is still good  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13862347 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862330 Glover said:


Quote:


give me a break. Its kinda hard to evaluate him over the past 2 seasons. More like impossible. Shit O line, shit offensive scheme. Its just as viable to say he has 2 more Super Bowl MVPs left in him as it is to say he's done.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.



Name me the last VERY GOOD QB to lead his team to 14.5 pts per game for 16 games and miss playoffs in 5of6 seasons and the one playoff season he did nothing to contribute


Kurt Warner missed the playoffs in 6 straight seasons. But I am sure you have already forgotten that.
RE: I would be dangling Eli to  
leatherneck570 : 3/13/2018 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13862355 mikeygiants said:
Quote:
Buffalo, Jacksonville...


It's pretty bad when I have to think twice whether or not Eli would be an upgrade over Bortles RN.
Very much so  
mattyblue : 3/13/2018 2:26 pm : link
I agree with Eric on the shopping front. If we draft a QB at 2(which we should) Eli isn’t very valuable. I know it’s cheaper to do it next year, but if he could net a return and not having 2 QBs breathing down his neck I think it’s a win for both parties.
RE: Your opinion is in line with the professionals:  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/13/2018 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13862326 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Kevin Gilbride:



Quote:


Gilbride said flatly that “I do not see a significant dropoff” in Manning’s play.

“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.

“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”



Greg Cosell:



Quote:


Cosell on Eli the player: “It’s a bad offense, and has been for a while, and there’s many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. That’s just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that it’s a team with a poor OL. It’s a team that can’t run the football, and Eli is a ‘dependent’ QB – Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the ‘dependent’ parts are totally lacking, and he can’t be successful on any kind of consistent basis. It’s not a function of if he’s lost his ability to throw a football, he’s not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. He’s not lost his ability, but his style of QB’ing...he’s a ‘dependent’ player. There’s nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense that’s bad in every single area.”



Pat Shurmur:



Quote:


“I watched Eli throw a little bit this summer, and I walked away saying, ‘He looked really, really good,’ ’’ Shurmur said. “He looked fit. He was throwing the ball well. The ball had good velocity coming off his hand. And again, I think he’s got years left. How much, I don’t know. But I think he has time left, and I look forward to working with him.’’



Dave Gettleman:



Quote:


"I had an opportunity to watch [Manning's film] because the quarterback is the most important position on the team," Gettleman told reporters, per the team's website. "At the end of the day, it wasn't a mirage. It was not a mirage."





Quote:


General manager Dave Gettleman finally had a chance to watch all of Manning's game tape from 2017, and not just the impressive performance against the Eagles late in the season, and he came away impressed with what he saw. Gettleman didn't outright say it, but it's clear he blames the old offensive scheme, play calling, poor pass protection on the offensive line, injuries at wide receiver, and the lack of a running game for Manning's struggles.

According to Calvin Watkins on Twitter, Gettleman said the Giants have talent and “we will build it one brick at a time." Gettleman also said Manning will return and the Philly game was not a “mirage.” Gettleman made these comments at the Senior Bowl in Mobile as the Giants begin their process of scouting the draft prospects in the 2017 class.



There are more....


This is all in line with my opinion about Eli -- and I'll point out one more thing

MacAdoo was ready to dispense with Eli Manning for Geno Smith. He was locked into his scheme and not Eli's strengths as a player. And it was desperation on his part. Geno Smith wasn't going to win with that scheme. Geno Smith is a snatch defeat from the jaws of victory type player. MacAdoo wasn't going to win with that scheme either especially after Beckham went down --

MacAdoo was a one trick pony. You don't force a scheme on players that can't execute it for you. You change the scheme to fit the players -- BM was too damned stubborn and incapable of doing that. He fell for his own reviews. He stubbornly clung to what he knew from working with Aaron Rodgers.

That's bad coaching from a stubborn bull in the china shop, and it is not bad Quarterbacking!

If you are going to analyze Eli from that scheme and the poor coaching decisions that were made you are over-reacting - and analyzing from results, and not Eli's actual skills and where they are at.
If you're saying he hasn't regressed, you're actually shitting on him,  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2018 2:28 pm : link
because you're implying this is the level he was at in his prime at his absolute best...

The 2016 season is what everyone is worried about  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 2:28 pm : link
since he wasnt as good as we have seen him. People who use one play from last year is just insane.

But remember the predictability of our offense the last two years. Our 11 formation was the most used in history. We didnt carry fullbacks. McAdoo's offense was wretched beyond belief. When he was OC, you saw Coughlin's influence on the game plan.

Lets just hope Shurmur and Shula are the goods whether its Eli, Wbb, or the number 2 pick.
It doesn't matter  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 2:29 pm : link
What matters is that he WILL regress if he hasn't already.

It's time to move on.
RE: It doesn't matter  
Thegratefulhead : 3/13/2018 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13862383 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What matters is that he WILL regress if he hasn't already.

It's time to move on.
No argument available to refute that.
RE: It doesn't matter  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/13/2018 2:36 pm : link
In comment 13862383 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What matters is that he WILL regress if he hasn't already.

It's time to move on.


Wow -- so you're saying it doesn't matter if Eli has regressed, because he will regress?

Nice -- that covers all the bases for dismissal.


By the way - all the warty QBs that are available in the Draft are coming would be coming here not ready for the NFL yet. The Giants still have to play 16 games next year.

I for one would like to see what Eli can do in an Offense that set up to maximize his strengths - and frankly I'll take Kevin Gillbride's word for Eli's skill evaluation before anyone on this board.
Yes  
Frankie in Flushing : 3/13/2018 2:37 pm : link
Eli has regressed.
Yes  
Rick in Dallas : 3/13/2018 2:38 pm : link
And to be expected turning 37. Arm strength and accuracy on the decline.
Are Steelers and Chargers fans  
Britt in VA : 3/13/2018 2:38 pm : link
clamoring to get rid of Roethlisberger and Rivers based on the fact that if they aren't in decline, they will be? How about the Saints? They just gave Drew Brees a 2 year 50 million dollar contract at 39. Shouldn't they just go ahead and cut bait based on his inevitable physical deterioration? Brady is 41. Several teams rode Bret Favre into his 40's.

Franchise QB is one position where, in my opinion, the "better a year early than a year late" rule doesn't apply. When you have one, you better run him into the ground because there are no guarantees that the next one can perform anywhere close to that level.
Call it what you will  
JonC : 3/13/2018 2:38 pm : link
regression, decline due to age ... it's in full view.

He's still capable of playing some good football, but he's not the player he was a few years ago. He's missing all sorts of throws he used to make, a tell-tale sign the arm is declining.

Sentimentality is part of what's killing this franchise.
Lmao gidie you are so right but you can't change these  
JCin332 : 3/13/2018 2:38 pm : link
dim bulbs opinions...
Seems  
lax counsel : 3/13/2018 2:41 pm : link
Like what most are suggesting, is that Eli needs things to be nearly perfect around him to still play at a high level. I think most fans that think Eli is nearing the end, believe that if he needs things that perfect then he shouldn't be the guy anymore. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that his franchise remaining tied to Eli could set it back for many years to come. Especially with a golden opportunity to draft a top prospect at 2.
Hey Rivers regressed? Has Rothlisberger regressed?  
Bramton1 : 3/13/2018 2:42 pm : link
Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.
RE: Call it what you will  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2018 2:45 pm : link
In comment 13862403 JonC said:
Quote:
regression, decline due to age ... it's in full view.

He's still capable of playing some good football, but he's not the player he was a few years ago. He's missing all sorts of throws he used to make, a tell-tale sign the arm is declining.

Sentimentality is part of what's killing this franchise.


That last sentence a million times. It goes back to keeping Reese and Ross but firing TC. (I personally think all of them should've been fired at the same time). It's still affecting this franchise to this day.

"Sentimentality is part of what's killing this franchise."  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 2:46 pm : link
That is the smartest thing that's been said on this board today.

And I'll add one other element: excuse making. This team has been cloaked in excuses for a while. Excuses for underperformance, excuses for behavior, excuses for a being a brutal team since 2012. It's been one rationalization after another.

Blaming the offensive line exclusively for Eli's drop in play is another in a long line of those rationalizations.
Yep, 6 years of excuses and shifting the goal-posts  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2018 2:48 pm : link
with everyone else under the sun getting the blame for 6 years of failure. Eventually, you're the last man standing and there's no one else to blame..
Has Eli regressed?  
M.S. : 3/13/2018 2:50 pm : link

Hell, yea he's regressed.

And with the shit-ass o-line in front of him, he has also become more jittery and willing to go down at the first hint of pressure.

But I'll tell you when the bottom is out of the barrel for Eli... and it harks back to Kerry Collins' biggest flaw:

If Eli stops looking down field and starts to stare at his feet as his pocket collapses, he might as well retire.

.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 2:52 pm : link
Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.

"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"

It sounds silly.

You can either see it on the field, or you can't.

Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.
RE: Hey Rivers regressed? Has Rothlisberger regressed?  
lax counsel : 3/13/2018 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13862410 Bramton1 said:
Quote:
Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.


Because they have not declined as much as he has. They're human beings, not robots. Men in their late 30s react differently to aging. Also, I'm not sure how you would make the argument that Eli has been as consistent of a regular season qb as Ben. Perhaps that has something to do with it, perhaps Ben is just a better Qb. And I'm a big Eli fan, I'm also realistic.
RE: ...  
jlukes : 3/13/2018 2:54 pm : link
In comment 13862287 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.


Shopping him to who? We'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him at this point
RE: Yep, 6 years of excuses and shifting the goal-posts  
sundayatone : 3/13/2018 2:54 pm : link
In comment 13862421 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
with everyone else under the sun getting the blame for 6 years of failure. Eventually, you're the last man standing and there's no one else to blame..


rueben randle agrees. the off has been broken twice in last 5yrs with eli at qb,but its never his fault.
Didn't the Giants lead the league in dropped  
carpoon : 3/13/2018 2:54 pm : link
passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career. Of course he has regressed, but not like some think he has.

Teams in this league can turn it around a lot quicker than they used to.

I am not ready for a Southern Californian at QB as a replacement. They have a tough time in the cold of the Northeast
RE: .  
Britt in VA : 3/13/2018 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13862431 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.

"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"

It sounds silly.

You can either see it on the field, or you can't.

Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.


When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?
RE: RE: ...  
M.S. : 3/13/2018 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13862435 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 13862287 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.



Shopping him to who? We'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him at this point

Third Round???

I would happily take a sixth, unload his contract and move on to a new era, rebuilding with a freshly drafted QB.
It doesn't really matter  
Gman11 : 3/13/2018 2:59 pm : link
What does matter is that he is 37 years old and even if you don't think his talents have eroded, they soon will. Like the old saying goes, "In the race with Father Time, Father Time is undefeated."
It's not just about what you'd get for him  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 2:59 pm : link
It's about resetting a franchise that is in grave need of it. These last six seasons are not all Eli's fault. Far from it...but the circumstances remain what they are and continuing along a path of sentimentality and rationalization will only lead to more efforts to try to "make a run" as opposed to an actual comprehensive approach to roster construction.

It's past fucking time to blow this entire team up.
RE: RE: Your opinion is in line with the professionals:  
Victor in CT : 3/13/2018 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13862376 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13862326 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Kevin Gilbride:



Quote:


Gilbride said flatly that “I do not see a significant dropoff” in Manning’s play.

“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.

“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”



Greg Cosell:



Quote:


Cosell on Eli the player: “It’s a bad offense, and has been for a while, and there’s many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. That’s just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that it’s a team with a poor OL. It’s a team that can’t run the football, and Eli is a ‘dependent’ QB – Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the ‘dependent’ parts are totally lacking, and he can’t be successful on any kind of consistent basis. It’s not a function of if he’s lost his ability to throw a football, he’s not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. He’s not lost his ability, but his style of QB’ing...he’s a ‘dependent’ player. There’s nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense that’s bad in every single area.”



Pat Shurmur:



Quote:


“I watched Eli throw a little bit this summer, and I walked away saying, ‘He looked really, really good,’ ’’ Shurmur said. “He looked fit. He was throwing the ball well. The ball had good velocity coming off his hand. And again, I think he’s got years left. How much, I don’t know. But I think he has time left, and I look forward to working with him.’’



Dave Gettleman:



Quote:


"I had an opportunity to watch [Manning's film] because the quarterback is the most important position on the team," Gettleman told reporters, per the team's website. "At the end of the day, it wasn't a mirage. It was not a mirage."





Quote:


General manager Dave Gettleman finally had a chance to watch all of Manning's game tape from 2017, and not just the impressive performance against the Eagles late in the season, and he came away impressed with what he saw. Gettleman didn't outright say it, but it's clear he blames the old offensive scheme, play calling, poor pass protection on the offensive line, injuries at wide receiver, and the lack of a running game for Manning's struggles.

According to Calvin Watkins on Twitter, Gettleman said the Giants have talent and “we will build it one brick at a time." Gettleman also said Manning will return and the Philly game was not a “mirage.” Gettleman made these comments at the Senior Bowl in Mobile as the Giants begin their process of scouting the draft prospects in the 2017 class.



There are more....



This is all in line with my opinion about Eli -- and I'll point out one more thing

MacAdoo was ready to dispense with Eli Manning for Geno Smith. He was locked into his scheme and not Eli's strengths as a player. And it was desperation on his part. Geno Smith wasn't going to win with that scheme. Geno Smith is a snatch defeat from the jaws of victory type player. MacAdoo wasn't going to win with that scheme either especially after Beckham went down --

MacAdoo was a one trick pony. You don't force a scheme on players that can't execute it for you. You change the scheme to fit the players -- BM was too damned stubborn and incapable of doing that. He fell for his own reviews. He stubbornly clung to what he knew from working with Aaron Rodgers.

That's bad coaching from a stubborn bull in the china shop, and it is not bad Quarterbacking!

If you are going to analyze Eli from that scheme and the poor coaching decisions that were made you are over-reacting - and analyzing from results, and not Eli's actual skills and where they are at.


as if we needed more proof of McAdoo's incompetence. Ray Handley II
eli executes the screens/short passing game  
sundayatone : 3/13/2018 3:00 pm : link
like elaine dancing on seinfeld
RE: RE: ...  
The_Boss : 3/13/2018 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13862435 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 13862287 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.



Shopping him to who? We'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him at this point


I’d happily take a third for Eli.
.  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 3:04 pm : link
New GM
New head coach
2nd pick overall

There is never going to be a better time to put an end to the excruciating half measures that have been team policy since Eli was made the starter in 2004. I'm tired of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. We all should be.
I agree with DG and our coach.  
Giant John : 3/13/2018 3:04 pm : link
I really don’t care what others have to say.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 3:12 pm : link
In comment 13862439 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13862431 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.

"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"

It sounds silly.

You can either see it on the field, or you can't.

Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.



When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?


Because there's more to it than just arm strength. It's decision-making, processing what's happening on the field, and results.

We've done nothing but lose with Eli under center for the majority of the last 6 seasons.

If it was just about how far a guy could chuck it, QB's would routinely play into their 40's. It's more than that.

Sentimentality is absolutely playing a major role in the way people view Eli's performance.

I get it. But I think a lot of the guys who are insisting that Eli still has it are really just trying to convince themselves more than anything else because that's what they want.

If I thought we could truly fix this OL this offseason, I'd be 100% committed to the idea of riding it out with Eli. But it's going to take a couple of years and eventually we have to concede that Eli won't play forever.
RE: Seems  
njm : 3/13/2018 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13862406 lax counsel said:
Quote:
Like what most are suggesting, is that Eli needs things to be nearly perfect around him to still play at a high level. I think most fans that think Eli is nearing the end, believe that if he needs things that perfect then he shouldn't be the guy anymore. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that his franchise remaining tied to Eli could set it back for many years to come. Especially with a golden opportunity to draft a top prospect at 2.


Not perfect, just an OL that's not in the Bottom 5 of the league, one of his Top 3 WRs play 16 games (hell, 12) and a RB in the Top 20 in the league.
There is no way to tell,  
Doomster : 3/13/2018 3:20 pm : link
who the real Eli is, after these last two seasons....

The Mac offensive strategy....

No running game.....

No OL for the last 6 seasons....

The injuries to the receivers in 2017....

With all that, how can you truly judge someone?

I think he has something left, if he is with the right team.....the Giants just are not that team...
If Eli was in Jacksonville last year, they win the Super Bowl  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 3:23 pm : link
But we aren't Jacksonville. We didn't draft Myles Jack or sign Calais Campbell. We've been making the wrong moves in the draft and free agency for years.
RE: RE: I would be dangling Eli to  
DelZotto : 3/13/2018 3:25 pm : link
In comment 13862365 leatherneck570 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862355 mikeygiants said:


Quote:


Buffalo, Jacksonville...



It's pretty bad when I have to think twice whether or not Eli would be an upgrade over Bortles RN.


Has a NO TRADE!
When was the last game  
mdc1 : 3/13/2018 3:26 pm : link
that Eli won a game with 2m left in Q4?

Curious
RE: If Eli was in Jacksonville last year, they win the Super Bowl  
Default : 3/13/2018 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13862497 Go Terps said:
Quote:
But we aren't Jacksonville. We didn't draft Myles Jack or sign Calais Campbell. We've been making the wrong moves in the draft and free agency for years.


lol Eli does not put up 45 in Pittsburgh, not even in his dreams
RE: When was the last game  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13862507 mdc1 said:
Quote:
that Eli won a game with 2m left in Q4?

Curious


SF? The GW pass to Donnell in 2015?

Not sure if I can remember one more recently than that off the top of my head.
Nice seeing Cosell...  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 3:29 pm : link
capture who Eli really is - a "dependent" QB. And he's been like that since Archie, Condon, and Peyton manipulated the draft to get Eli here.

The type of investment the team will need to build around Eli at 37 seems like an inevitable upside down ROI.



Chiefs game (in 4th Q and again in overtime) and the Ravens game  
NYGmen58 : 3/13/2018 3:30 pm : link
in 2016 was the one before that. All Eli.
RE: RE: When was the last game  
NYGmen58 : 3/13/2018 3:33 pm : link
In comment 13862517 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13862507 mdc1 said:


Quote:


that Eli won a game with 2m left in Q4?

Curious



SF? The GW pass to Donnell in 2015?

Not sure if I can remember one more recently than that off the top of my head.


Are you serious? Chiefs game last year? Ravens and Saints games in 2016? You conveniently forgot those??
RE: Chiefs game (in 4th Q and again in overtime) and the Ravens game  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13862522 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
in 2016 was the one before that. All Eli.


All Eli?

I'd say all Beckham in that Ravens game.

Also, Eli threw for like 200 yards and 0 TD's against KC - we also had to setting for FG's both times. Didn't score a single TD that day.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 3:36 pm : link
We scored 9 points in an overtime game against KC last year. This offense didn't score a single TD.

We're really crediting Eli for that?

LOL. Okay.
RE: Hey Rivers regressed? Has Rothlisberger regressed?  
Jimmy Googs : 3/13/2018 3:36 pm : link
In comment 13862410 Bramton1 said:
Quote:
Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.


No, its because they have maintained their Franchise QB skills. They both had strong 2017 years.

And last I saw in January Big Ben was firing missiles all over the vaunted Jaguar defense. Brees left the field in Minnesota by bringing his team all the way back to take the lead (after an absolutely clutch perfect throw on 4th down no less keeping the drive alive) before the Saints defense blew it.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 3:37 pm : link
10 yard slant... "all Eli.."

RE: RE: Hey Rivers regressed? Has Rothlisberger regressed?  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 3:39 pm : link
In comment 13862542 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13862410 Bramton1 said:


Quote:


Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.



No, its because they have maintained their Franchise QB skills. They both had strong 2017 years.

And last I saw in January Big Ben was firing missiles all over the vaunted Jaguar defense. Brees left the field in Minnesota by bringing his team all the way back to take the lead (after an absolutely clutch perfect throw on 4th down no less keeping the drive alive) before the Saints defense blew it.


You really thought Ben played that well against Jax? I doubt you watched it since the Jags were credited with FIVE dropped INTs. Forget aboot them?
RE: RE: RE: I would be dangling Eli to  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/13/2018 3:40 pm : link
In comment 13862504 DelZotto said:
Quote:
In comment 13862365 leatherneck570 said:


Quote:


In comment 13862355 mikeygiants said:


Quote:


Buffalo, Jacksonville...



It's pretty bad when I have to think twice whether or not Eli would be an upgrade over Bortles RN.



Has a NO TRADE!

You act as if a player with a NTC has never been traded.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Diver_Down : 3/13/2018 3:42 pm : link
In comment 13862441 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 13862435 jlukes said:


Quote:


In comment 13862287 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.



Shopping him to who? We'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him at this point


Third Round???

I would happily take a sixth, unload his contract and move on to a new era, rebuilding with a freshly drafted QB.


But to "unload" his contract via a trade incurs a dead cap hit of $12.4M. Wait another 5 days, and it jumps to $17.4M. Hardly worth it to net some late round picks.

Now, if they want to rid themselves of his contract, they can release him before the roster bonus due on 3/18 and designate him as a post June 1st cut. They will have to carry the full dead cap hit of $12.4M until June 1st at which time the cap hit is lessened to $6.2M this year and $6.2M next year. Of course, doing so leaves them with Webb and whomever they draft. With the assumption that a new QB is drafted, that limits DG's options in the draft.
Eli  
Dragon : 3/13/2018 3:43 pm : link
Has and will always be a player who everything has to be performed correctly or 80 percent of the time it's a wasted play. He can shift around in the pocket but he can't move forward, left, right or escape once he sets up in the pocket. The only thing more scary then Eli throwing the ball is Eli on the run that's not a good thing.
RE: RE: Chiefs game (in 4th Q and again in overtime) and the Ravens game  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 3:43 pm : link
In comment 13862535 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13862522 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


in 2016 was the one before that. All Eli.



All Eli?

I'd say all Beckham in that Ravens game.

Also, Eli threw for like 200 yards and 0 TD's against KC - we also had to setting for FG's both times. Didn't score a single TD that day.


While the no tds certainly enhance your argument... weather was brutal that game. Remember how bad Smith was for KC?
This place is gonna be great  
WillVAB : 3/13/2018 3:45 pm : link
When the Giants don’t take a QB.
OBJ  
Dragon : 3/13/2018 3:46 pm : link
Has made him seem capable but it's OBJ special skills with the ball that brings excitement to the game. This has become a team built for the OBJ highlights show not a good QB playing every week.
RE: This place is gonna be great  
Diver_Down : 3/13/2018 3:47 pm : link
In comment 13862572 WillVAB said:
Quote:
When the Giants don’t take a QB.


Wait until after this season when DG extends Eli a couple more years. I'll pray for BBI's Hamster.
RE: RE: RE: Chiefs game (in 4th Q and again in overtime) and the Ravens game  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 3:48 pm : link
In comment 13862566 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862535 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13862522 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


in 2016 was the one before that. All Eli.



All Eli?

I'd say all Beckham in that Ravens game.

Also, Eli threw for like 200 yards and 0 TD's against KC - we also had to setting for FG's both times. Didn't score a single TD that day.



While the no tds certainly enhance your argument... weather was brutal that game. Remember how bad Smith was for KC?


Smith was awful too - both offenses were and weather absolutely played a role in that.

I just wouldn't use that game as proof that Eli "still has it" - he did very little of note that day.

We only took the lead late in the 4th because Smith was intercepted by Jenkins who returned it all the way back to the KC 23. Eli could have just taken a dump on 3 snaps in a row and we still would have kicked that field goal.

Yet posters like above are talking to me like I'm a moron for not calling that a game winning/tying "drive" with under 2 minutes to go.

Good stuff.
What are we going to accomplish in the next year or two  
bceagle05 : 3/13/2018 3:52 pm : link
that could possibly justify keeping Eli multiple years and passing on a QB at #2?

We're a three-win team with limited cap space and five draft picks. I know things change quickly in the NFL, but come on. We're losing Richburg, Pugh and DRC, which means we have to commit resources to finding their replacements and then somehow procure enough talent on top of that to take us from 3 to 10/11 wins. If the Giants think that's feasible, we're heading back to the 1970s, if we're not already there. I'm OK with letting Eli play this year, but that's it.
RE: RE: .  
Jimmy Googs : 3/13/2018 3:52 pm : link
In comment 13862439 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13862431 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.

"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"

It sounds silly.

You can either see it on the field, or you can't.

Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.



When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?


First, some of it is arm strength where as Eli cannot get away with his arm-alone anymore, meaning when he does not have time to get his feet underneath him balls now fall short or go high.

But its not only that, his downfield accuracy is way off versus prior years. And he is missing long and short with that accuracy which is a leading indicator of declining arm/body strength.

The other Pocket-Related factors include: lack of patience in letting plays develop; eyes dropping to rush; not wiggling around pocket, and taking off and running even less than ever; and the ball now popping out so much more on initial hits.

just to name a few...
RE: Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/13/2018 3:53 pm : link
In comment 13862253 jtgiants said:
Quote:
Hasn't regressed. Many in the league know he has good football left. Many on this site will eat a lot of crow. Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated

It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.

It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.
RE: Hey Rivers regressed? Has Rothlisberger regressed?  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/13/2018 3:55 pm : link
In comment 13862410 Bramton1 said:
Quote:
Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.

And they're both a full year younger than Eli despite having been drafted the same year.
RE: RE: RE: .  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 3:56 pm : link
In comment 13862594 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13862439 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13862431 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.

"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"

It sounds silly.

You can either see it on the field, or you can't.

Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.



When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?



First, some of it is arm strength where as Eli cannot get away with his arm-alone anymore, meaning when he does not have time to get his feet underneath him balls now fall short or go high.

But its not only that, his downfield accuracy is way off versus prior years. And he is missing long and short with that accuracy which is a leading indicator of declining arm/body strength.

The other Pocket-Related factors include: lack of patience in letting plays develop; eyes dropping to rush; not wiggling around pocket, and taking off and running even less than ever; and the ball now popping out so much more on initial hits.

just to name a few...


He was 5th in the NFL last year in catchable passes. So that negates a lot of what you wrote. And the Giants led the NFL in drops last year and didnt have their starting WRs for 2/3rds of the season.

All this needs to be taken into consideration as well.
RE: RE: RE: Hey Rivers regressed? Has Rothlisberger regressed?  
Jimmy Googs : 3/13/2018 3:57 pm : link
In comment 13862551 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862542 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 13862410 Bramton1 said:


Quote:


Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.



No, its because they have maintained their Franchise QB skills. They both had strong 2017 years.

And last I saw in January Big Ben was firing missiles all over the vaunted Jaguar defense. Brees left the field in Minnesota by bringing his team all the way back to take the lead (after an absolutely clutch perfect throw on 4th down no less keeping the drive alive) before the Saints defense blew it.



You really thought Ben played that well against Jax? I doubt you watched it since the Jags were credited with FIVE dropped INTs. Forget aboot them?


Ha, ha. He had 5 touchdowns, 450+ yards passing and his offense scored 40+ points.

Are you suggesting his regressing skills kept him from throwing 10 touchdowns and scoring 90 points?

chucklehead...
RE: RE: Eli  
JonC : 3/13/2018 3:57 pm : link
In comment 13862597 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13862253 jtgiants said:


Quote:


Hasn't regressed. Many in the league know he has good football left. Many on this site will eat a lot of crow. Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated


It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.

It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.


ding ding ... good post too from Googs.
RE: Didn't the Giants lead the league in dropped  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/13/2018 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13862437 carpoon said:
Quote:
passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.

He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
RE: RE: RE: Eli is still good  
NYSports1 : 3/13/2018 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13862362 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862347 NYSports1 said:


Quote:


In comment 13862330 Glover said:


Quote:


give me a break. Its kinda hard to evaluate him over the past 2 seasons. More like impossible. Shit O line, shit offensive scheme. Its just as viable to say he has 2 more Super Bowl MVPs left in him as it is to say he's done.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.



Name me the last VERY GOOD QB to lead his team to 14.5 pts per game for 16 games and miss playoffs in 5of6 seasons and the one playoff season he did nothing to contribute



Kurt Warner missed the playoffs in 6 straight seasons. But I am sure you have already forgotten that.


And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....
RE: This place is gonna be great  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2018 4:00 pm : link
In comment 13862572 WillVAB said:
Quote:
When the Giants don’t take a QB.


Or when Barkley goes number 1. Don't be so certain..
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eli is still good  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 4:02 pm : link
In comment 13862609 NYSports1 said:
Quote:

And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....


He was 15-29 in those 6 years. I am sure you are going to counter with something that it wasnt his fault.

But carry on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Hey Rivers regressed? Has Rothlisberger regressed?  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13862602 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


Ha, ha. He had 5 touchdowns, 450+ yards passing and his offense scored 40+ points.

Are you suggesting his regressing skills kept him from throwing 10 touchdowns and scoring 90 points?

chucklehead...


Stats are meaningless without context (isnt that what you preached when discussing Eli's week 15 game and dismissed it for a variety of reasons?) he was behind the whole game. Much of the reason because of his two turnovers earlier in the game. Yes, he had a monster 4th quarter going up against prevent defenses, and made some nice 4thdown throws....

but I can guarantee you that if Eli had a game where he threws for a bunch of yards and TDs and they lost because he was responsible for the whole he put them in and continued by constantly throwing passes that should have been intercepted (5 of them btw) - not one person, including you would praise him.

In fact all I have to do is go back to the week following the 2nd eagles game to prove my point.

Jimmy, you are a good poster and you may be right about Eli. But citing that game Ben played and using it as a stepping stone on how good Ben is is being very contradicting of some of the things you said about Eli after he had good games as well.
RE: RE: Didn't the Giants lead the league in dropped  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 4:07 pm : link
In comment 13862607 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13862437 carpoon said:


Quote:


passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.


He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.


eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.

But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
RE: .  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2018 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13862460 Go Terps said:
Quote:
New GM
New head coach
2nd pick overall

There is never going to be a better time to put an end to the excruciating half measures that have been team policy since Eli was made the starter in 2004. I'm tired of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. We all should be.


This. It's good to see most people feel this way now. 6 years of band-aids and patches that haven't worked. Why continue to do the same thing? There's literally not one good reason to. Not one.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Eli is still good  
NYSports1 : 3/13/2018 4:17 pm : link
In comment 13862616 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862609 NYSports1 said:


Quote:



And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....



He was 15-29 in those 6 years. I am sure you are going to counter with something that it wasnt his fault.

But carry on.


SO Eli played 96 games in that 6 year span and missed the playoffs in 5-6 seasons

That to you means Warner in 6 seasons played in 44 games means is the same? Fantastic
RE: RE: RE: Didn't the Giants lead the league in dropped  
NYSports1 : 3/13/2018 4:19 pm : link
In comment 13862630 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862607 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13862437 carpoon said:


Quote:


passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.


He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.



eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.

But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.


Or the team got hot in a avarage season at the right time and got some lucky breaks in 07 to win the SB and got hot in 11 at the right time after 9-7 season.

Am sure Eli's aggressiveness for picks is what won us those 2 SB
15-29  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 4:20 pm : link
and 3 different teams mind you.

Warner had a stretch of football that was hideous for 6 years. Thats all I am saying.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Didn't the Giants lead the league in dropped  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 4:22 pm : link
In comment 13862670 NYSports1 said:
Quote:


Or the team got hot in a avarage season at the right time and got some lucky breaks in 07 to win the SB and got hot in 11 at the right time after 9-7 season.

Am sure Eli's aggressiveness for picks is what won us those 2 SB


On my re-entry to BBI, I promised that I wouldnt get myself caught in this. So Ill just leave it as have a good day.
RE: Call it what you will  
UberAlias : 3/13/2018 4:23 pm : link
In comment 13862403 JonC said:
Quote:
regression, decline due to age ... it's in full view.

He's still capable of playing some good football, but he's not the player he was a few years ago. He's missing all sorts of throws he used to make, a tell-tale sign the arm is declining.

Sentimentality is part of what's killing this franchise.
I think this take is spot on. Unfortunately.
One thing I think that gets overlooked  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 4:28 pm : link
is getting a new QB doesnt start the rebuilding process, it could actually prolong it. You can still rebuild with Eli and then hand the reigns over to Webb or Darnold/Rosen/Allen, and be ready to compete immediately.

We need to fix the OL and attitudes first and foremost.
Dep - give me a little more credit than that.  
Jimmy Googs : 3/13/2018 4:29 pm : link
First, Ben had a good day versus the Jags, and a good season like I mentioned. Lets call a spade a spade. Even if you chalk it up to being behind or prevent defense or whatever, he made the plays to score 40+. I haven't seen Eli do that since we played Carolina a few years back (maybe?).

And I don't bash Eli for the sake of doing it (although sometimes its fun to poke at Britt when he gets a bit too ridiculous but I never start it). I am a proponent of shedding Eli though and fixing the Giants, and imo he is in the way of really doing it. My opinion and i will give whenever I want.

I absolutely thought Eli played well against the Eagles that second game. But the good games have become far more infrequent and he is far more inconsistent than ever. And simply one week later (vs ARZ) we see the result.

He isn't going to carry the Offense anymore. Its simply not going to happen. So, in my view, I want to move on before this becomes a true liability...
RE: Dep - give me a little more credit than that.  
dep026 : 3/13/2018 4:39 pm : link
In comment 13862694 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
First, Ben had a good day versus the Jags, and a good season like I mentioned. Lets call a spade a spade. Even if you chalk it up to being behind or prevent defense or whatever, he made the plays to score 40+. I haven't seen Eli do that since we played Carolina a few years back (maybe?).

And I don't bash Eli for the sake of doing it (although sometimes its fun to poke at Britt when he gets a bit too ridiculous but I never start it). I am a proponent of shedding Eli though and fixing the Giants, and imo he is in the way of really doing it. My opinion and i will give whenever I want.

I absolutely thought Eli played well against the Eagles that second game. But the good games have become far more infrequent and he is far more inconsistent than ever. And simply one week later (vs ARZ) we see the result.

He isn't going to carry the Offense anymore. Its simply not going to happen. So, in my view, I want to move on before this becomes a true liability...


well as far as Ben's game against Jax, its all matter of opinion. I wasnt too impressed with it. I have seen him play much better. Much like I have seen Eli play much better than week 15 against Philly.

As far as Eli's future. I do understand wanting to start over, I really do. I am not going to judge it by 2017 though. Injuries to OBJ and BM in the preseason. A terrible defense and run game to start the year, than injuries to everyone. It was as bad as bad could be.

I am a huge fan of drafting Darnold orRosen at 2. And start Eli. I think he certianly can play at a level that a Blake Bortles, Nick Foles, and Case Keenum played at last year and they were winning playoff games. Now will our team be good enough? Probably not. So start Eli, and if the season goes to shit early - put the rookie in.

I just dont think people realize how bad we were last year. We may have been the worst coached team in the NFL last year and we had probably the worst talent from week 8 on.

I know people hate this phrase. But Eli and everyone returning (including Apple, Flowers, etc...) they get a do-over or even a one last chance.
Ok Dep.  
Jimmy Googs : 3/13/2018 5:15 pm : link
Although you won't see my handle on too many threads supporting giving folks a "do-over" at age 37...
.  
Danny Kanell : 3/13/2018 5:15 pm : link
Terps and JonC killing it on this thread.
RE: RE: This place is gonna be great  
WillVAB : 3/13/2018 8:11 pm : link
In comment 13862613 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13862572 WillVAB said:


Quote:


When the Giants don’t take a QB.



Or when Barkley goes number 1. Don't be so certain..


I want no part of Barkley at 2.

What people don’t realize here is the GM and HC don’t give a flying fuck if the Giants are “set at the QB position for the next 10-15 years,” if there’s even one of those in this draft. It’s their job to put together a good team and win football games. If they don’t win relatively soon, they’ll be gone just like the last regime. DG and Sherman have what, maybe a 3 year leash to turn it around? 4?


RE: RE: RE: Didn't the Giants lead the league in dropped  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/13/2018 8:20 pm : link
In comment 13862630 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862607 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13862437 carpoon said:


Quote:


passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.


He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.



eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.

But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.

That's absolutely fair, and I agree with it. The context of my point was simply about blaming the receivers for drops without acknowledging that it cuts both ways. I have never downplayed the role that Eli played for us in winning two Super Bowls, and never will. But I also recognize that he's not the same player that he was then, and at 37 years old, it's silly to expect him to be.
People are worried about drops  
xman : 3/13/2018 9:20 pm : link
but what about poorly thrown balls to wide open receivers? Anyone want to take a count on missed opportunities? What QB leads the league?
RE: People are worried about drops  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 11:36 pm : link
In comment 13863441 xman said:
Quote:
but what about poorly thrown balls to wide open receivers? Anyone want to take a count on missed opportunities? What QB leads the league?


Doesn’t matter. Eli is the teflon.

RE: People are worried about drops  
mattyblue : 3/15/2018 7:11 am : link
In comment 13863441 xman said:
Quote:
but what about poorly thrown balls to wide open receivers? Anyone want to take a count on missed opportunities? What QB leads the league?


Well put Xman! Eli is making throws that are beyond awful, not always but I would agree he is near the top of the league in missing wide open receivers. He is also very skittish in the pocket. Sentimentality is killing us. They shouldn’t have started Geno and should have played Webb. #2 pick 37 year old QB. Do people really want to go back to the Brown, Kannel, etc. years?
RE: People are worried about drops  
dep026 : 3/15/2018 7:41 am : link
In comment 13863441 xman said:
Quote:
but what about poorly thrown balls to wide open receivers? Anyone want to take a count on missed opportunities? What QB leads the league?


Eli was 5th in the league in catchable balls last year. And the giants were first drops.

So um, yeah.

I hate these..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/15/2018 8:11 am : link
threads because all it does is give chances for a bunch of people whose sole reason for posting on this site is to take shots at Eli - to take shots at Eli.

This is about as well as it can be summed up from my point of view:

Quote:
RE: Eli
Gatorade Dunk : 3/13/2018 3:53 pm :

It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.

It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.


It is both ridiculous to say the Eli hasn't regressed at all as well as say he's one of the worst QB's in the league. I also don't know how in one breath people can say that McAdoo was complete shit with one of the worst offensive schemes around and then complain that eli didn't look good in that system. I just wish Mac would've prepared Webb so he could've tried to move to him last year instead of Geno. Right now, we'd know a lot more about what we have in a succession plan if that idiot had any competency.
RE: RE: Eric  
bradshaw44 : 3/15/2018 9:17 am : link
In comment 13862281 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 13862254 Tim in VA said:


Quote:


So 2014-2015 Eli on 2017 Giants would be a different result? I just don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion. How can you look good under last years' circumstances?



I don't understand your argument. The 2014 and 2015 New York Giants were not good teams. But Eli played better in those years. He was worse in 2016 when they made the playoffs. He was worse last year. Statistically this is fact. But just look at his play on the field.

If you ask me, I'm not sure where he is psychologically right now. He looks skittish to me. The years of playing behind shoddy OL's may have caught up to him.


This is what I think the problem is. He doesn’t trust his line and it has mentally screwed him. Look how quickly he gives himself up some times. And I don’t blame him. When you have a 250 lb man barreling down on you unblocked regularly it can be mentally taxing.
Has Eli regressed? Yeah, probably.  
Keith : 3/15/2018 9:29 am : link
To me it doesn't matter. Eli cannot win on the Giants at this point. He's not getting better, he will only get worse and our roster has some serious issues that will take a few years to fix. Eli is done on the Giants and it really makes no sense to "go for it" when he's on his last leg. Maybe if we were coming off a good season, but 3-13 with massive dysfunction, new coach, new GM, lots of turnover. Time to move on. The worst thing we can do is draft as if we have a chance with Eli.
RE: Has Eli regressed? Yeah, probably.  
dep026 : 3/15/2018 9:41 am : link
In comment 13866946 Keith said:
Quote:
To me it doesn't matter. Eli cannot win on the Giants at this point. He's not getting better, he will only get worse and our roster has some serious issues that will take a few years to fix. Eli is done on the Giants and it really makes no sense to "go for it" when he's on his last leg. Maybe if we were coming off a good season, but 3-13 with massive dysfunction, new coach, new GM, lots of turnover. Time to move on. The worst thing we can do is draft as if we have a chance with Eli.


The smart thing to do is draft his predecssor. Let Eli start the year. If things go well, great keep playing him. If we start off 2-5 or worse.... then let the rookie play the last half of the year.

I think Eli can still win games with his talent, but if the team isnt up to snuff- then move onto Darnold, Rosen, ALlen, or Webb.
It still boggles my mind...  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 9:45 am : link
that people think they can get a true evaluation of anybody in the situation we had last year. The offense was woeful. Not even pro worthy. Defenders told our WR's they knew their routes. We lined up with the same personnel over and over and kept throwing slants over and over.

It was truly one of the worst offenses ever drawn up.
dep, unlike the other Eli cheerleaders,  
Keith : 3/15/2018 9:50 am : link
you are spot on. That's the move. Draft a QB, if for some magical reason we are in contention, keep Eli in. If not, it's 2004 all over again.
His stats in 2016 don’t show much of a regression and the team won 11  
djm : 3/15/2018 9:51 am : link
His stats last year were pedestrian to be kind but still somewhat professional despite playing in the shittiest most talent devoid offense in nfl history and one led by the most clueless and fucked up HC ever.

When a team regresses like the Giants did its hard for the qb to elevate himself and that team. If you want to say Eli caused this regression ok fine, but I don’t see it that way.
I actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/15/2018 9:53 am : link
think this is the plan Gettleman and Shurmur have. And it is a solid one:

Quote:
dep, unlike the other Eli cheerleaders,
Keith : 9:50 am : link : reply
you are spot on. That's the move. Draft a QB, if for some magical reason we are in contention, keep Eli in. If not, it's 2004 all over again.


I hate to ever say you "have" to select a certain position, but with the #2 pick - it is there for us. However, if we trade down and amass picks, especially a #1 next year, that wouldn't be too bad either.
RE: dep, unlike the other Eli cheerleaders,  
dep026 : 3/15/2018 9:54 am : link
In comment 13866981 Keith said:
Quote:
you are spot on. That's the move. Draft a QB, if for some magical reason we are in contention, keep Eli in. If not, it's 2004 all over again.


I think we are going to be better than most people here think. When you see everything possibly go wrong like it did last year, law of averages tend to even out. I mean without Beckham, a number 2 WR, and SS banged up for 10 games.... thats a huge loss for anyone. I mean in our last game we started Darkwa, Sharp, Bundy, Rudolph, and Jerrell Adams. I mean christ.

Now, Eli has to play better and cant miss on some of the throws he missed earlier in the year and he needs to stop fumbling the ball when sacked. However, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think Shurmus is a HUGE upgrade over McAdoo, and we still have a lot of talent on defense, albeit it not as good as we hoped. Hopefully Betcher brings new life to these boys. Maybe Apple grows up? Snacks and Tomlinson are as good as it gets. Vernon needs to step up. Jpp needs to show up. Let Collins and hopefully Mathieu run wreckless in the secondary.

I dont know. If we look back on 7-8 games we lost last year, you could say to yourself, man with an OBJ or a bounce here, we could have easily been 8-8, which I know isnt great however we were still coached by McAdoo.

Things in the NFL are funny. You can win a lot of games that you didnt expect.
When Eli has a professional offense around him  
djm : 3/15/2018 9:55 am : link
The offense scores close to or more than 400 pts and plays meaningful games well into late December and possibly longer. Eli is the same as he’s ever been. Surround him with chicken fried shit and things will he had. Surround him with at least capable and things will be good. Just watch. It will happen in 2018. I promise.
dep,  
Keith : 3/15/2018 9:57 am : link
I hope thats the case, but being better shouldn't be our goal. We need to be actual contenders if we are going to keep running Eli out there. I don't see how that happens.
RE: dep, unlike the other Eli cheerleaders,  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 10:00 am : link
In comment 13866981 Keith said:
Quote:
you are spot on. That's the move. Draft a QB, if for some magical reason we are in contention, keep Eli in. If not, it's 2004 all over again.


I've been saying that all season. People just choose not to listen.
The only way they don't pick a QB....  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 10:01 am : link
is if they're not sold on what's available to them, and that's okay too if they pass for that reason. We should all want that.
RE: It still boggles my mind...  
Section331 : 3/15/2018 10:01 am : link
In comment 13866975 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
that people think they can get a true evaluation of anybody in the situation we had last year. The offense was woeful. Not even pro worthy. Defenders told our WR's they knew their routes. We lined up with the same personnel over and over and kept throwing slants over and over.

It was truly one of the worst offenses ever drawn up.


This. It is really difficult to make a fair evaluation of Eli, or any offensive player, given how bland and predictable the offense was. I am open to the possibility that Eli may not have it any more, and I am fairly certain he isn't the player he was even 3 years ago (which was, by the way, pretty damn good year). I'm excited to see what he can do with a real offensive coach, and a betterOL.

Either way, Eli should not preclude the Giants from taking a QB at #2. If there is a guy there they like, they will take him. Of that I am certain.
Check the date:  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 10:05 am : link
Quote:
I've said it again, and again, and again over the past couple of weeks
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:17 pm : link

Here's how it's going to go.

Eli's replacement is drafted in Round 1 this year IF, and this is a big IF, they are in position to draft somebody they covet.

Davis Webb and new Quarterback duel it out for #2 in camp.

Eli starts the season, and depending on how it goes, he continues to play if they're winning or contributing.

One of two things happen, the Giants have a successful season which results in Eli starting the following season in his final year in his deal and whatever happens happens? Or they struggle and the new coach decides mid season that it's time to make the transition and they do it, ala Warner to Eli.

I know it's hard for people to wrap their heads around, but here's what's NOT going to happen:

Davis Webb will not start any game this season. His best case scenario is to be elevated to number 2 and come in the 2nd half of games to get some time.

Eli will not be cut or traded in the offseason.

Eli will not be a pay cut. I could see him restructuring if he works out an agreement that he will be allowed to play out his contract and retire gracefully, but who knows....

Link - ( New Window )
But yeah, just a cheerleader.  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 10:05 am : link
.
RE: dep,  
dep026 : 3/15/2018 10:08 am : link
In comment 13866997 Keith said:
Quote:
I hope thats the case, but being better shouldn't be our goal. We need to be actual contenders if we are going to keep running Eli out there. I don't see how that happens.


Well I understand your point. But my feeling is this. Can we get into the playoffs? If so, then I dont care Eli is 37 or 57, Ill still put money on him. But even if we get into the playoffs and lose, the team has improved and we are going onto the right path. We have seen FAs we wanted go to better teams. I think we have gotten better. New MLB, SLB, LT, RG, and possibly safety.

And around that date, late November......  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 10:25 am : link
the board was littered with people that insisted Davis Webb was going to start the rest of the season, that Eli would have essentially played his last down as a Giant when that happened, that he would definitively be cut or traded in the offseason with complete certainty.

I even called it after the benching that McAdoo and Reese would be canned mid season, that Sullivan or Spagnuolo would be elevated to interim head coach, and that Eli would be re-inserted into the starting QB position.

The ONLY thing I got wrong was that Eli would ever be benched in the first place. I didn't think it would happen because of the streak, and initially, it wasn't planned for it to happen, it was Eli who benched himself essentially. Ironically, this indirectly (at the very least hastened) led to McAdoo and Reese getting canned mid season.

All season long I debated these these people, was pretty much right about everything (and them wrong), and yet I'm the irrational one.

It's pretty funny, actually.
Of course Eli has regressed..  
bw in dc : 3/15/2018 12:09 pm : link
And it's mostly, if not entirely, physical. Just watch his arm strength, especially on the move. The zip has declined. And Eli has never had what one would hail as a quick release.

The biggest asset Favre, Elway, Moon, etc have had going into their golden years of QBing is there incredible arm talent. Since Eli doesn't have that, the decline is underway...
RE: Of course Eli has regressed..  
djm : 3/15/2018 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13867384 bw in dc said:
Quote:
And it's mostly, if not entirely, physical. Just watch his arm strength, especially on the move. The zip has declined. And Eli has never had what one would hail as a quick release.

The biggest asset Favre, Elway, Moon, etc have had going into their golden years of QBing is there incredible arm talent. Since Eli doesn't have that, the decline is underway...


Respectfully disagree. I think Eli’s arm is the same. The offense isn’t. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.
Eli's...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/15/2018 1:03 pm : link
arm strength has visibly declined?

The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.

And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.
dep, fair point, especially with Eli.  
Keith : 3/15/2018 1:09 pm : link
The guy steps it up so if we have a shot at the playoffs, he stays in. As soon as we are eliminated, he's out.
RE: Eli's...  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 1:10 pm : link
In comment 13867561 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
arm strength has visibly declined?

The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.

And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.


Gilbride, Greg Cosell, Gettleman, Shurmer, Pat Kirwan, etc...
But what do those guys know?  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 1:10 pm : link
.
But bbi  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 1:33 pm : link
Has master QB evaluator...Jimmy Googs!
Add Papa and  
Tim in VA : 3/15/2018 2:06 pm : link
Diehl
Assume that's sarcasm which is fine. But I'm very comfortable  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 2:09 pm : link
in making my own opinions/evals on players, and clearly okay in stating them without prejudice or some half-assed disclaimer as many do on BBI so they can protect against ever being wrong. Crick you may be one of those guys, especially if this is how you want to post.

And on Eli, my evaluation has been fairly consistent over the past several years as to the decline in his play/skills. The main difference now only being how it is really accelerating.

I never said you had to rely on my view. But don't crap on it, especially since this team isn't exactly kicking ass and taking names since 2011 with our guy under center...
FMIC, I agree.  
Keith : 3/15/2018 2:21 pm : link
I don't see that much of a physical decline as far as the ability to throw the ball, but there is def a decline in his pocket presence, ability to move inside the pocket or outside the pocket. He started his career with happy feet and its back. His decision making has also been questionable as well.

Eli is a funny one, he's very smart and his ability to read defenses and know where he's throwing the ball is amazing, but he's not very cerebral as the play is going on. If he misreads or his options aren't there, he makes very bad decisions, sometimes mind boggling.
Yes.  
T-Bone : 3/15/2018 2:38 pm : link
Next question.
RE: Eli's...  
Thegratefulhead : 3/15/2018 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13867561 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
arm strength has visibly declined?

The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.

And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.
Arm strength is the last thing to go. I still have a cannon and I will be 50. His arm might be better. A couple of off seasons ago, he worked on improving it. People see him throw off his back foot when he should eat it or it throw it away and they mistake that for lack of arm strength he he throws one of his ducks.
Just like Eli was in decline in 2013  
djm : 3/15/2018 4:54 pm : link
Until he wasn’t.

This team was dreadfully coached under Mcadoo. The offense and atmosphere and aura was so bad it literally reduced eli to tears. It literally made him look terrible. There were games we struggled to get the ball to Odell Beckham. You hear that? Odell fucking Beckham and eli fucking Manning went through entire halfs of games where they failed to get in sync and it wasn’t because of the ol. It was the entire offensive philosophy and scheme. They rarely had a plan that worked early and they never ever ever adjusted to what defenses were doing to them, and what those defenses did was grotesque.

Forget 2016-2017. Place it in a hard to reach vault in your brain along with 91-92 and move on.
The 1995 giants led by Dave Brown  
djm : 3/15/2018 5:02 pm : link
And a collection of skill players and olinemen that inspire no one SCORED MORE than 50 points in that season than the 2017 giants did.

1995!!!

Is Eli Manning as bad as Dave brown? He must be right?

Mcadoo wrecked this team. Fucking wrecked it. Thank god he was bad enough to warrant a quick hook. I only wish the team sucked this bad in 2016 to hasten his departure but we will have to settle for two years of hell.
And if anything  
djm : 3/15/2018 5:04 pm : link
2016 should inspire confidence in us all. The fact that this team was able
To win 11 games with that wack job mess calling the shots is nothing short of incredible. Handley only won 8 games and 6 games respectively. Then reeves came in and restored some order. Shurmur will too.
Can you ever get one thought  
Keith : 3/15/2018 5:42 pm : link
into one post, lol?
RE: Can you ever get one thought  
djm : 3/15/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 13868133 Keith said:
Quote:
into one post, lol?


My friends and family yell at me for the same shit with texting. So I guess it’s me? Ill tell them Keith (kmed) said the same thing further validating the complaints.

I’ll try harder. Ps had knee surgery last night just a partial meniscus removal... I’d use the dopey effects of the pain killers as an excuse but I’m always dopey.
Googs  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 7:31 pm : link
You often present your opinion as undisputed. You said "anyone who would want Eli as their starting qb would have to be brain dead. That comes off as dumping on any opinion in favor of having as their about (you just complained about me dumping on your opinion). It also comes off as undisputed or obvious. You showed arrogance when it was being shown to you that actual football people felt the opposite of how you felt about Manning, claiming, that you didn't need gilbrides information, you quickly closed your ears to what he had to say as if it wouldn't be in any new or even correct information.

You want to dump on Manning? No big deal, but maybe once in a while think about the possibility (good possibility in my opinion) that you are wrong, and maybe lower your own opinion a couple of notches if you think your opinion should hold as much weight as people who have lived and breathed football for decades.

As for me being wrong, I'm wrong a lot, no big deal, I'm learning that an open mind is a valuable part of growing.
Fair enough on a couple of comments  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 7:47 pm : link
but not all. Just because I post with conviction doesn’t mean it is indisputable. I will stipulate to some arrogance but within the bounds of reason.

Bring your debate if you disagree as to a football opinion as I am happy to go head to head on topics. But bring more than a post made tongue in cheek like the braindead one as it wasn’t calling anybody specific out like u did.

Besides I usually post those types after a few martinis so cut me some slack...
RE: Fair enough on a couple of comments  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 7:52 pm : link
In comment 13868295 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Besides I usually post those types after a few martinis so cut me some slack...


Fair enough
It would be nice if we could at least agree  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/15/2018 7:52 pm : link
that saying Eli has regressed isn't disrespectful or insulting. It happens to every athlete ever. People tend to bristle when it's offered as an opinion as if Eli was so talented that he could defeat Time.
Its fairly obvious we can't  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 7:56 pm : link
TTH...
It can  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 7:57 pm : link
Just be a lazy thing to say as for the response for his struggles, and it could be true, but in the shit storm of a situation this offense was in as a whole b it's hard to evaluate anything, that is a time when the experts can really help us fans figuring out what we are seeing. Of course they aren't always right, but it's typically a good solid foundation to stand on
It’s definitely not an insult  
djm : 3/15/2018 7:57 pm : link
Or disrespectful or stupid to say Eli has regressed.

I have been a dick lately. No excuse this is just a passionate topic and this period or moment in nyg history is so important... we all want the best. I have to remember that. If I have come off as assholish i apologize to everyone.
On paper Eli has regressed (2017)  
djm : 3/15/2018 7:58 pm : link
But I think he can return to form and be the qb we all expect him to be in 2018.
Here's my position...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/15/2018 8:02 pm : link
In answer to the question - yes, Eli's play has definitely regressed. He checks down way too often and is far less likely to stand tall and aim downfield.

Now, why is he doing that? Clearly having a poor OL is one reason. But I think it's also the system - he's been trained to make quick reads and quick decisions, and I think he's been coached to NOT take chances downfield but to take the easier underneath stuff. He's protecting the Duke, which means his overall turnover numbers may be down but so are his big plays.

I personally think he still has enough in every way (physically, mentally, competitive drive) to perform well in this league. I'm not sure he's a perfect fit for the offense Shurmur will want to run, but then again Shurmur has lots of experience in different offenses, so if he's smart he'll build something Eli can be successful in.

With regards to whether the Giants HAVE to take another QB right now - I disagree. They will only take one if they are completely in love with one. I doubt they are. I think they'll go with Barkley, who should definitely be there for them. Personally I hope they do because I think he's a generational player and would really open things up offensively for this team right away, way more than any of the QB's or other picks could.
Good post  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 8:03 pm : link
Dan
RE: Good post  
Dan in the Springs : 3/15/2018 8:31 pm : link
In comment 13868313 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Dan


Thanks - just my opinion but I think that Eli is NOT the best QB for the type of offense that McAdoo was trying to install. Meaning, the ideal QB for that type of offense is one who has nearly perfect touch and accuracy on the short passes. The offense was designed to maximize YAC with all of the slants/crossing routes, and teams learned to sit back and allow the underneath passes. Eli's never had the best touch passes in the short game and when receivers have to wait, turn, stretch or come back to a pass it kills YAC and allows NFL defenders to quickly approach and tackle.

If Shurmur is smart and wants to play Eli he will NOT design such an offense IMO.
So what is the right Offense for Eli to play in  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 8:37 pm : link
going forward?
Nobody?  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 8:54 pm : link
WWGS...

What Would Gilbride Say?
Martinis  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 9:13 pm : link
?
RE: RE: Of course Eli has regressed..  
bw in dc : 3/15/2018 9:16 pm : link
In comment 13867543 djm said:
Quote:
In comment
Respectfully disagree. I think Eli’s arm is the same. The offense isn’t. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.


The passes between the hashes when he has time looks - I guess - the same. The passes outside the hashes look much different to me - the ball seems to float a lot more. And even more so when he's on the move...

Again, this is what's supposed to happen when you're 38. It's a natural progression. But if you really think he throws just as well as when he was 24 than I guess we watch a different game...
RE: Martinis  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 9:21 pm : link
In comment 13868416 crick n NC said:
Quote:
?


Not yet.

Looking forward to some responses though. Do u want to take a crack Crick?
I'm six beers in  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 9:23 pm : link
Hell ya!
Ok nevertheless  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 9:40 pm : link
I am sure it will decent view anyway. Go ahead...
.  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 10:05 pm : link
RE: RE: RE: Of course Eli has regressed..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/15/2018 10:32 pm : link
In comment 13868421 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13867543 djm said:


Quote:


In comment
Respectfully disagree. I think Eli’s arm is the same. The offense isn’t. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.



The passes between the hashes when he has time looks - I guess - the same. The passes outside the hashes look much different to me - the ball seems to float a lot more. And even more so when he's on the move...

Again, this is what's supposed to happen when you're 38. It's a natural progression. But if you really think he throws just as well as when he was 24 than I guess we watch a different game...

For the uninformed, at Jints Central, 37 year old players are 38.

Just wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.
RE: So what is the right Offense for Eli to play in  
Section331 : 3/15/2018 10:49 pm : link
In comment 13868362 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
going forward?


Eli showed he can play in a ACO hybrid, like the one they ran with McAdoo as OC. It is pretty clear now that TC had a LT more influence on that offense than many of us realized.

Eli can play with a spread short passing scheme, just give him a decent OL and running game, take a few shots downfield. Shurmer’s scheme in Minny is VERY similar.
WCO hybrid, not ACO.  
Section331 : 3/15/2018 10:50 pm : link
West coast to Atlantic coast?
Technically he will be 37 and approx 8 months old  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 11:12 pm : link
if and when he takes another snap that counts for us.

So lets round up to 38...
djm,  
Keith : 3/15/2018 11:15 pm : link
painkillers for a minor knee procedure. Rub some dirt on it and keep it moving!

Seriously though, get better soon, it’s actually an easy recovery.
RE: djm,  
djm : 3/15/2018 11:38 pm : link
In comment 13868567 Keith said:
Quote:
painkillers for a minor knee procedure. Rub some dirt on it and keep it moving!

Seriously though, get better soon, it’s actually an easy recovery.


I was surprised they gave me painkillers honestly. I don’t need them anymore. Really not bad at all 24 hours later.

Nice parting gift tho...
RE: Technically he will be 37 and approx 8 months old  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/16/2018 7:54 am : link
In comment 13868566 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
if and when he takes another snap that counts for us.

So lets round up to 38...

I've been firmly in the camp of Eli being in decline, but I also don't think anyone needs to fudge the numbers to show it. bw was talking about observations/examples that have already happened, so rounding up for the next time Eli takes a snap doesn't really apply here.
Its not fudging the numbers at all to make him appear old  
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2018 8:18 am : link
if anything, more seasoned so lighten up...
RE: So what is the right Offense for Eli to play in  
Dan in the Springs : 3/16/2018 9:29 am : link
In comment 13868362 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
going forward?


IMO, and admittedly I'm no expert, but Eli would do best in a much more balanced offense. He would do well with a power run game that would set up play-action where he can be very good. The passing game would focus less on YAC and more on air yards, primarily through vertical routes by receivers (TE included).

As I watched McAdoo's offense closely over the past couple of years what stood out to me was the incredible number of routes run for very short yards. It seems every play had a minimum of two receivers running routes of less than 10 yards. These horizontal routes were open much more often and quickly and as time passed Eli went to them much more often but consistently for fewer and fewer yards. Compressing the offensive attack didn't work, so I think the opposite would be best for Eli.
Thanks Dan. Eli 's inaccuracies and lack of mobility  
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2018 7:17 pm : link
offset against his experience and strong ability to read defenses make it interesting to wonder what Offense would be best for him.

Wonder why the Eli Fan Club can't weigh in, all though I can speculate...
Hmm  
Tim in VA : 3/16/2018 7:23 pm : link
It's almost like there is no offense that will work for the 2 time Superbowl MVP Eli Manning
The best offense for Eli would be one that gave him more than  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/16/2018 8:10 pm : link
two seconds to throw the ball.
No, that's not the point. You can't just say one with a better O-line  
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2018 8:50 pm : link
running backs and WRs (other than OBJ). If that were the case, everybody would say we need a better QB to keep up.

What's the Offense for the attributes Eli has today?
Manning is a down  
crick n NC : 3/16/2018 8:57 pm : link
The field passer. However, he's a good passer, and cerebral, so I think he can play in any offense that doesn't require mobility. Mac's offense seemed to be crap, but even then I have to at least understand that the OL would or I think should make it difficult for any offense to run.
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