It seems to be bandied about as common knowledge that Eli is done, or clearly on the downturn. Personally I disagree. I didn't see a significant drop off in arm strength, decision making, or accuracy. What I did see was poor coaching in every phase, poor game planning and management, poor run and pass blocking on the offensive line, poor ground game, and a lack of receiving talent to a level I have never seen on a Giants team ever! Literally every part of our team failed us miserably, yet many people here seem convinced we can't win with Eli.
I expect many here will say "well I watched him play" as the reason for this conclusion that he's done. To them I ask did you really watch the games and not notice the things outlined above? I don't think I'm making excuses for Eli, rather I think many are making excuses against him.
I do realize he is 37, so there is that factor, but I really don't see the writing on the wall that he has started to decline. I don't see why he can't lead the Giants for the next 2-3 years.
The biggest question I have is how we are going to clean up the rest of the team. The coaching changes seem positive, but we have a long way to go in every other position to contend. Extra picks in this draft would be helpful too. But I'm 100% positive that picking a QB to hold a clipboard with our most impactful draft pick will result in us picking top 5 again in next year's draft.
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In comment 13862522 NYGmen58 said:
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in 2016 was the one before that. All Eli.
All Eli?
I'd say all Beckham in that Ravens game.
Also, Eli threw for like 200 yards and 0 TD's against KC - we also had to setting for FG's both times. Didn't score a single TD that day.
While the no tds certainly enhance your argument... weather was brutal that game. Remember how bad Smith was for KC?
Smith was awful too - both offenses were and weather absolutely played a role in that.
I just wouldn't use that game as proof that Eli "still has it" - he did very little of note that day.
We only took the lead late in the 4th because Smith was intercepted by Jenkins who returned it all the way back to the KC 23. Eli could have just taken a dump on 3 snaps in a row and we still would have kicked that field goal.
Yet posters like above are talking to me like I'm a moron for not calling that a game winning/tying "drive" with under 2 minutes to go.
Good stuff.
We're a three-win team with limited cap space and five draft picks. I know things change quickly in the NFL, but come on. We're losing Richburg, Pugh and DRC, which means we have to commit resources to finding their replacements and then somehow procure enough talent on top of that to take us from 3 to 10/11 wins. If the Giants think that's feasible, we're heading back to the 1970s, if we're not already there. I'm OK with letting Eli play this year, but that's it.
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Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.
"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"
It sounds silly.
You can either see it on the field, or you can't.
Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.
When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?
First, some of it is arm strength where as Eli cannot get away with his arm-alone anymore, meaning when he does not have time to get his feet underneath him balls now fall short or go high.
But its not only that, his downfield accuracy is way off versus prior years. And he is missing long and short with that accuracy which is a leading indicator of declining arm/body strength.
The other Pocket-Related factors include: lack of patience in letting plays develop; eyes dropping to rush; not wiggling around pocket, and taking off and running even less than ever; and the ball now popping out so much more on initial hits.
just to name a few...
It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.
It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.
And they're both a full year younger than Eli despite having been drafted the same year.
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In comment 13862431 arcarsenal said:
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Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.
"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"
It sounds silly.
You can either see it on the field, or you can't.
Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.
When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?
First, some of it is arm strength where as Eli cannot get away with his arm-alone anymore, meaning when he does not have time to get his feet underneath him balls now fall short or go high.
But its not only that, his downfield accuracy is way off versus prior years. And he is missing long and short with that accuracy which is a leading indicator of declining arm/body strength.
The other Pocket-Related factors include: lack of patience in letting plays develop; eyes dropping to rush; not wiggling around pocket, and taking off and running even less than ever; and the ball now popping out so much more on initial hits.
just to name a few...
He was 5th in the NFL last year in catchable passes. So that negates a lot of what you wrote. And the Giants led the NFL in drops last year and didnt have their starting WRs for 2/3rds of the season.
All this needs to be taken into consideration as well.
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In comment 13862410 Bramton1 said:
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Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.
No, its because they have maintained their Franchise QB skills. They both had strong 2017 years.
And last I saw in January Big Ben was firing missiles all over the vaunted Jaguar defense. Brees left the field in Minnesota by bringing his team all the way back to take the lead (after an absolutely clutch perfect throw on 4th down no less keeping the drive alive) before the Saints defense blew it.
You really thought Ben played that well against Jax? I doubt you watched it since the Jags were credited with FIVE dropped INTs. Forget aboot them?
Ha, ha. He had 5 touchdowns, 450+ yards passing and his offense scored 40+ points.
Are you suggesting his regressing skills kept him from throwing 10 touchdowns and scoring 90 points?
chucklehead...
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Hasn't regressed. Many in the league know he has good football left. Many on this site will eat a lot of crow. Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated
It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.
It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.
ding ding ... good post too from Googs.
He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
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In comment 13862330 Glover said:
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give me a break. Its kinda hard to evaluate him over the past 2 seasons. More like impossible. Shit O line, shit offensive scheme. Its just as viable to say he has 2 more Super Bowl MVPs left in him as it is to say he's done.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.
Name me the last VERY GOOD QB to lead his team to 14.5 pts per game for 16 games and miss playoffs in 5of6 seasons and the one playoff season he did nothing to contribute
Kurt Warner missed the playoffs in 6 straight seasons. But I am sure you have already forgotten that.
And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....
Or when Barkley goes number 1. Don't be so certain..
And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....
He was 15-29 in those 6 years. I am sure you are going to counter with something that it wasnt his fault.
But carry on.
Ha, ha. He had 5 touchdowns, 450+ yards passing and his offense scored 40+ points.
Are you suggesting his regressing skills kept him from throwing 10 touchdowns and scoring 90 points?
chucklehead...
Stats are meaningless without context (isnt that what you preached when discussing Eli's week 15 game and dismissed it for a variety of reasons?) he was behind the whole game. Much of the reason because of his two turnovers earlier in the game. Yes, he had a monster 4th quarter going up against prevent defenses, and made some nice 4thdown throws....
but I can guarantee you that if Eli had a game where he threws for a bunch of yards and TDs and they lost because he was responsible for the whole he put them in and continued by constantly throwing passes that should have been intercepted (5 of them btw) - not one person, including you would praise him.
In fact all I have to do is go back to the week following the 2nd eagles game to prove my point.
Jimmy, you are a good poster and you may be right about Eli. But citing that game Ben played and using it as a stepping stone on how good Ben is is being very contradicting of some of the things you said about Eli after he had good games as well.
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passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.
He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.
But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
New head coach
2nd pick overall
There is never going to be a better time to put an end to the excruciating half measures that have been team policy since Eli was made the starter in 2004. I'm tired of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. We all should be.
This. It's good to see most people feel this way now. 6 years of band-aids and patches that haven't worked. Why continue to do the same thing? There's literally not one good reason to. Not one.
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And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....
He was 15-29 in those 6 years. I am sure you are going to counter with something that it wasnt his fault.
But carry on.
SO Eli played 96 games in that 6 year span and missed the playoffs in 5-6 seasons
That to you means Warner in 6 seasons played in 44 games means is the same? Fantastic
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In comment 13862437 carpoon said:
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passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.
He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.
But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
Or the team got hot in a avarage season at the right time and got some lucky breaks in 07 to win the SB and got hot in 11 at the right time after 9-7 season.
Am sure Eli's aggressiveness for picks is what won us those 2 SB
Warner had a stretch of football that was hideous for 6 years. Thats all I am saying.
Or the team got hot in a avarage season at the right time and got some lucky breaks in 07 to win the SB and got hot in 11 at the right time after 9-7 season.
Am sure Eli's aggressiveness for picks is what won us those 2 SB
On my re-entry to BBI, I promised that I wouldnt get myself caught in this. So Ill just leave it as have a good day.
He's still capable of playing some good football, but he's not the player he was a few years ago. He's missing all sorts of throws he used to make, a tell-tale sign the arm is declining.
Sentimentality is part of what's killing this franchise.
We need to fix the OL and attitudes first and foremost.
And I don't bash Eli for the sake of doing it (although sometimes its fun to poke at Britt when he gets a bit too ridiculous but I never start it). I am a proponent of shedding Eli though and fixing the Giants, and imo he is in the way of really doing it. My opinion and i will give whenever I want.
I absolutely thought Eli played well against the Eagles that second game. But the good games have become far more infrequent and he is far more inconsistent than ever. And simply one week later (vs ARZ) we see the result.
He isn't going to carry the Offense anymore. Its simply not going to happen. So, in my view, I want to move on before this becomes a true liability...
And I don't bash Eli for the sake of doing it (although sometimes its fun to poke at Britt when he gets a bit too ridiculous but I never start it). I am a proponent of shedding Eli though and fixing the Giants, and imo he is in the way of really doing it. My opinion and i will give whenever I want.
I absolutely thought Eli played well against the Eagles that second game. But the good games have become far more infrequent and he is far more inconsistent than ever. And simply one week later (vs ARZ) we see the result.
He isn't going to carry the Offense anymore. Its simply not going to happen. So, in my view, I want to move on before this becomes a true liability...
well as far as Ben's game against Jax, its all matter of opinion. I wasnt too impressed with it. I have seen him play much better. Much like I have seen Eli play much better than week 15 against Philly.
As far as Eli's future. I do understand wanting to start over, I really do. I am not going to judge it by 2017 though. Injuries to OBJ and BM in the preseason. A terrible defense and run game to start the year, than injuries to everyone. It was as bad as bad could be.
I am a huge fan of drafting Darnold orRosen at 2. And start Eli. I think he certianly can play at a level that a Blake Bortles, Nick Foles, and Case Keenum played at last year and they were winning playoff games. Now will our team be good enough? Probably not. So start Eli, and if the season goes to shit early - put the rookie in.
I just dont think people realize how bad we were last year. We may have been the worst coached team in the NFL last year and we had probably the worst talent from week 8 on.
I know people hate this phrase. But Eli and everyone returning (including Apple, Flowers, etc...) they get a do-over or even a one last chance.
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When the Giants don’t take a QB.
Or when Barkley goes number 1. Don't be so certain..
I want no part of Barkley at 2.
What people don’t realize here is the GM and HC don’t give a flying fuck if the Giants are “set at the QB position for the next 10-15 years,” if there’s even one of those in this draft. It’s their job to put together a good team and win football games. If they don’t win relatively soon, they’ll be gone just like the last regime. DG and Sherman have what, maybe a 3 year leash to turn it around? 4?
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In comment 13862437 carpoon said:
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passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.
He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.
But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
That's absolutely fair, and I agree with it. The context of my point was simply about blaming the receivers for drops without acknowledging that it cuts both ways. I have never downplayed the role that Eli played for us in winning two Super Bowls, and never will. But I also recognize that he's not the same player that he was then, and at 37 years old, it's silly to expect him to be.
Doesn’t matter. Eli is the teflon.
Well put Xman! Eli is making throws that are beyond awful, not always but I would agree he is near the top of the league in missing wide open receivers. He is also very skittish in the pocket. Sentimentality is killing us. They shouldn’t have started Geno and should have played Webb. #2 pick 37 year old QB. Do people really want to go back to the Brown, Kannel, etc. years?
Eli was 5th in the league in catchable balls last year. And the giants were first drops.
So um, yeah.
This is about as well as it can be summed up from my point of view:
Gatorade Dunk : 3/13/2018 3:53 pm :
It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.
It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.
It is both ridiculous to say the Eli hasn't regressed at all as well as say he's one of the worst QB's in the league. I also don't know how in one breath people can say that McAdoo was complete shit with one of the worst offensive schemes around and then complain that eli didn't look good in that system. I just wish Mac would've prepared Webb so he could've tried to move to him last year instead of Geno. Right now, we'd know a lot more about what we have in a succession plan if that idiot had any competency.
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So 2014-2015 Eli on 2017 Giants would be a different result? I just don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion. How can you look good under last years' circumstances?
I don't understand your argument. The 2014 and 2015 New York Giants were not good teams. But Eli played better in those years. He was worse in 2016 when they made the playoffs. He was worse last year. Statistically this is fact. But just look at his play on the field.
If you ask me, I'm not sure where he is psychologically right now. He looks skittish to me. The years of playing behind shoddy OL's may have caught up to him.
This is what I think the problem is. He doesn’t trust his line and it has mentally screwed him. Look how quickly he gives himself up some times. And I don’t blame him. When you have a 250 lb man barreling down on you unblocked regularly it can be mentally taxing.
The smart thing to do is draft his predecssor. Let Eli start the year. If things go well, great keep playing him. If we start off 2-5 or worse.... then let the rookie play the last half of the year.
I think Eli can still win games with his talent, but if the team isnt up to snuff- then move onto Darnold, Rosen, ALlen, or Webb.
It was truly one of the worst offenses ever drawn up.
When a team regresses like the Giants did its hard for the qb to elevate himself and that team. If you want to say Eli caused this regression ok fine, but I don’t see it that way.
Keith : 9:50 am : link : reply
you are spot on. That's the move. Draft a QB, if for some magical reason we are in contention, keep Eli in. If not, it's 2004 all over again.
I hate to ever say you "have" to select a certain position, but with the #2 pick - it is there for us. However, if we trade down and amass picks, especially a #1 next year, that wouldn't be too bad either.
I think we are going to be better than most people here think. When you see everything possibly go wrong like it did last year, law of averages tend to even out. I mean without Beckham, a number 2 WR, and SS banged up for 10 games.... thats a huge loss for anyone. I mean in our last game we started Darkwa, Sharp, Bundy, Rudolph, and Jerrell Adams. I mean christ.
Now, Eli has to play better and cant miss on some of the throws he missed earlier in the year and he needs to stop fumbling the ball when sacked. However, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think Shurmus is a HUGE upgrade over McAdoo, and we still have a lot of talent on defense, albeit it not as good as we hoped. Hopefully Betcher brings new life to these boys. Maybe Apple grows up? Snacks and Tomlinson are as good as it gets. Vernon needs to step up. Jpp needs to show up. Let Collins and hopefully Mathieu run wreckless in the secondary.
I dont know. If we look back on 7-8 games we lost last year, you could say to yourself, man with an OBJ or a bounce here, we could have easily been 8-8, which I know isnt great however we were still coached by McAdoo.
Things in the NFL are funny. You can win a lot of games that you didnt expect.
I've been saying that all season. People just choose not to listen.
It was truly one of the worst offenses ever drawn up.
This. It is really difficult to make a fair evaluation of Eli, or any offensive player, given how bland and predictable the offense was. I am open to the possibility that Eli may not have it any more, and I am fairly certain he isn't the player he was even 3 years ago (which was, by the way, pretty damn good year). I'm excited to see what he can do with a real offensive coach, and a betterOL.
Either way, Eli should not preclude the Giants from taking a QB at #2. If there is a guy there they like, they will take him. Of that I am certain.
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:17 pm : link
Here's how it's going to go.
Eli's replacement is drafted in Round 1 this year IF, and this is a big IF, they are in position to draft somebody they covet.
Davis Webb and new Quarterback duel it out for #2 in camp.
Eli starts the season, and depending on how it goes, he continues to play if they're winning or contributing.
One of two things happen, the Giants have a successful season which results in Eli starting the following season in his final year in his deal and whatever happens happens? Or they struggle and the new coach decides mid season that it's time to make the transition and they do it, ala Warner to Eli.
I know it's hard for people to wrap their heads around, but here's what's NOT going to happen:
Davis Webb will not start any game this season. His best case scenario is to be elevated to number 2 and come in the 2nd half of games to get some time.
Eli will not be cut or traded in the offseason.
Eli will not be a pay cut. I could see him restructuring if he works out an agreement that he will be allowed to play out his contract and retire gracefully, but who knows....
Link - ( New Window )
Well I understand your point. But my feeling is this. Can we get into the playoffs? If so, then I dont care Eli is 37 or 57, Ill still put money on him. But even if we get into the playoffs and lose, the team has improved and we are going onto the right path. We have seen FAs we wanted go to better teams. I think we have gotten better. New MLB, SLB, LT, RG, and possibly safety.
I even called it after the benching that McAdoo and Reese would be canned mid season, that Sullivan or Spagnuolo would be elevated to interim head coach, and that Eli would be re-inserted into the starting QB position.
The ONLY thing I got wrong was that Eli would ever be benched in the first place. I didn't think it would happen because of the streak, and initially, it wasn't planned for it to happen, it was Eli who benched himself essentially. Ironically, this indirectly (at the very least hastened) led to McAdoo and Reese getting canned mid season.
All season long I debated these these people, was pretty much right about everything (and them wrong), and yet I'm the irrational one.
It's pretty funny, actually.
The biggest asset Favre, Elway, Moon, etc have had going into their golden years of QBing is there incredible arm talent. Since Eli doesn't have that, the decline is underway...