I think that's backwards, he's a bit slow to react in pass pro but in run blocking he locks on and drives. Tommy C liked him enough to anoint him a starter and Tom likes his big bodies. Not a bad guy to have compete for a job.
this is so they can get rid of jerry and the williams signing is so they can get rid of harris...cheaper options free up room for.........THE BADGER!!!
Look, I don't know that Omameh will pan out or be worth a shit here - but this what Gettleman should be doing. This is a guy who has started in this league, been part of a good football team, is still in his 20's and has some upside.
Whether Gettleman can fix this team remains to be seen - but one thing I am certain of is that he's very intent on fixing this offensive line ASAP.
It should never taken as long as it did with Reese (and he STILL never fixed it!)
This line is not going to continue to be a fucking embarrassment for several years. I'm pretty confident of that much.
Look, I don't know that Omameh will pan out or be worth a shit here - but this what Gettleman should be doing. This is a guy who has started in this league, been part of a good football team, is still in his 20's and has some upside.
Whether Gettleman can fix this team remains to be seen - but one thing I am certain of is that he's very intent on fixing this offensive line ASAP.
It should never taken as long as it did with Reese (and he STILL never fixed it!)
This line is not going to continue to be a fucking embarrassment for several years. I'm pretty confident of that much.
LeCharles Bentley broke this over an hour ago, beat picked it up about 30 minutes ago
LeCharles Bentley
@OLineWorld65
1h1 hour ago
More
Undrafted-Practice Squad-Cut-Adversity--- Never flinched. Had to do it the hard way...but he did it. So proud to see this young man reach this milestone in his career/life. Amazing. #ELITEMindset #OLPBuiltToDominate
this is a good signing. He has started for every team he's played for aside from his undrafted rookie year. Tampa, Chicago and then Jacksonville. I'm sure they signed him to start here too.
from quick read up it seems like a guy that has quietly exceeded expectations his whole career. Not expecting all pro, but it certainly looks like he knows how to compete and as others have stated, he is in fact not john jerry.
extension. And to be fair, he wasn't the worst of the bunch. You could have pinpointed Richburg, Hart, or Flowers as the biggest flop on the line way more than Jerry.
is there a more overused, undescriptive buzz-word around here...
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
Jones/Flowers/Wheeler isn't a bad remaining 3 but we will see how much better can make it. I'd rather grab a stud RT have Flowers at RG, Jones at C and use Wheeler as a backup swing tackle/Solders Caddy
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
I agree with you. I don't think there's much to gain by putting him @ RT.
RG is probably going to be his best spot. Some of the clumsy footwork and technique will be minimized a bit there.
I think Flowers will be better against DT's. He seems to struggle against DE's who are quick around the edge. He often fails to engage them and gets beat by quicks much more often than he gets beaten by strength.
He's very strong, I think if he can use his strength in smaller spaces, he'll be better off.
Obviously OG still requires athleticism and the ability to get to the second level or pull on iso's and powers - but I think Flowers will fare much better @ OG.
I'd have real concerns about his ability to learn how to operate in a confined space since he's never done it. He doesn't seem to take to coaching by everything we've seen.
Shurmur doesn't have just one particular scheme. He's picked up a lot by working with other offensive coaches, but Minnesota ran a lot of zone run while he was there. Not guessing on that. Dalvin Cook expressly said it's why he had an early comfort level with the offense, because it was familiar to him from college.
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
I agree with you. I don't think there's much to gain by putting him @ RT.
RG is probably going to be his best spot. Some of the clumsy footwork and technique will be minimized a bit there.
I think Flowers will be better against DT's. He seems to struggle against DE's who are quick around the edge. He often fails to engage them and gets beat by quicks much more often than he gets beaten by strength.
He's very strong, I think if he can use his strength in smaller spaces, he'll be better off.
Obviously OG still requires athleticism and the ability to get to the second level or pull on iso's and powers - but I think Flowers will fare much better @ OG.
Fingers crossed.
Actually, at OG, it is quite the opposite- footwork and hand placement are CRITICAL- and this is Flower's main
weakness.
It is mind-boggling that people think that a LT is completely different from RT- when in fact, it is just the mirror opposite of what you do at LT. The sets, the blocks, the zones are all the same- just on the opposite side.
What is even more stunning is people who think that Flowers would be better at OG- which truly IS a position that he has NEVER played. The blocks, the calls, the use of hands and feet and TOTALLY different.
No, Flowers is a OT. Sure he gets beat by quick ends- but he can also ride them around the play. You can't do that at OG- when you get beat, the play is essentially over because of middle penetration.
Flowers will be fine at RT- there will still be quick ends there- but the better ones tend to be lined over the QB's blind side- LT.
Way to bring in the competition Dave. That is one thing that I thought this team lacked - especially the OL. Well, 2 things - high quality starters but, also .... there was nobody on the bench pushing them. Last year what OL was going to lose his job because there was a hard working, and talented up 'n commer - vying for his job? No one ....
Two former New York Giants offensive tackles taken in the 1st round who could not handle tackle were moved to guard and extended their careers - William Roberts and Eric Moore. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that Flowers ends up at guard where he feels less exposed. It worked for Roberts.
Important not to frame it as an unheard of act. Pugh can move from position to position. Diehl did it. Newhouse did it. I believe kevin boothe had to play Tackle at one point.
But the guys that can do it are likely players with refined technique. And that's where Flowers has never measured up and hasn't developed or been consistent or frankly even been willing to be coached.
Hog Mollie that looks an awful lot like Fluker in the blocking department. We need to draft a RG thats a mauler now. We should be very capable of doing just that in the second round.
Is Halapio the back up Center now? Maybe a guy like Price would be a good draft pick as he can play both Guard and Center and then can transition to Center next year, possibly pushing Jones back to being depth.
As with Flowers, I think he stays at Tackle. His more natural side is the right side and he may feel more comfortable there. I do think he wont be handed the job however. I think hes going to have to fight off Wheeler this year at RT.
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
+1 ... mentioned the same thing in another thread. The signing of Solder also hastens the movement of Flowers because he will not be staying at LT now ... right? I would love to see him at guard. I think he will make a good (great?) one. We will see ....
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
I agree with you. I don't think there's much to gain by putting him @ RT.
RG is probably going to be his best spot. Some of the clumsy footwork and technique will be minimized a bit there.
I think Flowers will be better against DT's. He seems to struggle against DE's who are quick around the edge. He often fails to engage them and gets beat by quicks much more often than he gets beaten by strength.
He's very strong, I think if he can use his strength in smaller spaces, he'll be better off.
Obviously OG still requires athleticism and the ability to get to the second level or pull on iso's and powers - but I think Flowers will fare much better @ OG.
Fingers crossed.
Actually, at OG, it is quite the opposite- footwork and hand placement are CRITICAL- and this is Flower's main
weakness.
It is mind-boggling that people think that a LT is completely different from RT- when in fact, it is just the mirror opposite of what you do at LT. The sets, the blocks, the zones are all the same- just on the opposite side.
What is even more stunning is people who think that Flowers would be better at OG- which truly IS a position that he has NEVER played. The blocks, the calls, the use of hands and feet and TOTALLY different.
No, Flowers is a OT. Sure he gets beat by quick ends- but he can also ride them around the play. You can't do that at OG- when you get beat, the play is essentially over because of middle penetration.
Flowers will be fine at RT- there will still be quick ends there- but the better ones tend to be lined over the QB's blind side- LT.
First, I didn't say anything about hand placement not being important for a guard.
I also said nothing about the differences between LT/RT.
But anyway - for interior linemen, lateral footwork isn't as important. You have to handle bullrushing more than you have to handle speedy ends beating you off the edge. Flowers is more powerful than he is quick and he'll have more help inside than he does outside.
Bill Walsh said himself that being a guard requires less technique in pass pro than being a tackle.
If Flowers isn't panning out @ LT, he's not going to pan out @ RT either. Thats the entire point of sliding him inside.
It wouldn't hurt to see how he fares there. It's not exactly unheard of. We're not asking him to play defensive end.
But as I watch Flowers...I see a LT who's technique is simply flawed
Why would a move inside help?
He looks like a player that just does not have the AA for the pros
Tackle - especially left tackle - requires what they call "good feet" in the NFL. Those offensive linemen who lack the "feet" to play in the NFL usually are moved to the interior. In other words, if you think Flowers is not athletically capable of playing tackle, guard is is best hope. But if you think Flowers can handle tackle, some think right side would be better because he would tend to see less athletic pass rushers from that side (though that is changing now in the NFL).
Here's what Mayock said about Flowers when he did his draft writeup a few years ago:
Quote:
BOTTOM LINE Flowers has good size and short area foot quickness, but he also features some lower body tightness and struggles to get proper depth quickly to consistently meet edge rushers. Some of Flowers' pass protection issue may be difficult to overcome. On the hand, his strength as a run blocker and ability to uproot his man and get them turned is undeniable. Flowers may be drafted as a tackle, but his best position could end up being as a guard where I would put a draft grade on him of 6.12.
But I think we can agree that the ability and the athleticism of an NFL defensive tackle has changed pretty significantly since the mid-late 80s. They are bigger while also being faster and stronger. The challenge is different. What inside linemen are being asked to do is different.
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
His best shot is probably at guard but my guess is DG lets him walk after the season.
Absolutely, but it's not like the DE position hasn't evolved at all in the interim - I still think technique is slightly more difficult/demanding for tackles.
Regardless of where you play on the line, you're obviously going to need to have good technique.
I think given Flowers' strengths and limitations, a move inside may benefit him. That's just my opinion. I can't back it up because he's never played there.
But I'm clearly not the only person who thinks the transition could potentially make sense given what we've seen of him thus far.
I have have around BBI long enough to know what a good LT looks like
Desmond has a barrow in the marketplace
Molly is the singer in a band
Desmond says to Molly, girl, I like your face
And Molly says this 'cause he is a Giants fan -
Omameh, Omama
Life goes on - bra!
La-la how the life goes on.
Omameh, Omama
Life goes on - bra!
La-la how the life goes on.
RE: I have have around BBI long enough to know what a good LT looks like
The guy has zero technique and obviously is not buying into the system
Or he didn't buy into the System.
You move him to the middle...you just took his LT money away...
With this kids past....he won't move to the middle
LT money? If he can't plat RT and won't move inside, he's costing himself any money going forward. I'd think any player, especially a young one would want to prove they can play in their walk year and get another contract.
Until he buys into the culture...it won't matter if you play him at guard or
One of the tackle spots
Ahh ok. I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant now that they've taken away his earning power of being a LT, he'll tank.
I was only saying I don't think he's that dumb, and would work to get another deal. Buying into the culture or not, it's only one year and he's gotta be smart enough to try his best regardless of position to get another deal.
The guy has zero technique and obviously is not buying into the system
Or he didn't buy into the System.
You move him to the middle...you just took his LT money away...
With this kids past....he won't move to the middle
LT money? If he can't plat RT and won't move inside, he's costing himself any money going forward. I'd think any player, especially a young one would want to prove they can play in their walk year and get another contract.
That was a thought I had for a while ... how susceptible would he be about a move to a different position? Besides pride, he he will be giving up substantial money?
However, if he is a "me first" type and not willing to do what it takes for the betterment of the team as a whole .... then let him walk.
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
I agree with you. I don't think there's much to gain by putting him @ RT.
RG is probably going to be his best spot. Some of the clumsy footwork and technique will be minimized a bit there.
I think Flowers will be better against DT's. He seems to struggle against DE's who are quick around the edge. He often fails to engage them and gets beat by quicks much more often than he gets beaten by strength.
He's very strong, I think if he can use his strength in smaller spaces, he'll be better off.
Obviously OG still requires athleticism and the ability to get to the second level or pull on iso's and powers - but I think Flowers will fare much better @ OG.
Fingers crossed.
Actually, at OG, it is quite the opposite- footwork and hand placement are CRITICAL- and this is Flower's main
weakness.
It is mind-boggling that people think that a LT is completely different from RT- when in fact, it is just the mirror opposite of what you do at LT. The sets, the blocks, the zones are all the same- just on the opposite side.
What is even more stunning is people who think that Flowers would be better at OG- which truly IS a position that he has NEVER played. The blocks, the calls, the use of hands and feet and TOTALLY different.
No, Flowers is a OT. Sure he gets beat by quick ends- but he can also ride them around the play. You can't do that at OG- when you get beat, the play is essentially over because of middle penetration.
Flowers will be fine at RT- there will still be quick ends there- but the better ones tend to be lined over the QB's blind side- LT.
Flowers issues wont be exacerbated at guard. Hes exploited when the DE lines up wide and forces Flowers to move out and take a bigger split from the guard essentially putting him on an island. Thats when his feet and leverage get exploited.
Flowers could do well at guard. Hell be playing more so in a phone booth and DTs wont be as athletic as DEs. He shouldnt have a problem anchoring at his size/strength.
This is what free agency is all about - filling gaping holes and
I honestly believe that Gettleman is building this team to WIN NOW and not just for the future.
I also believe we'll trade down a bit and get extra picks and OL Allen round 1 in this draft. Just a guess really, nothing solid, unless of course the Giants are wowed by a "QB of the future" and such.
So far, so good for UFA. I didn't like losing Kennard but he isn't a "game changer" either.
I honestly believe that Gettleman is building this team to WIN NOW and not just for the future.
I also believe we'll trade down a bit and get extra picks and OL Allen round 1 in this draft. Just a guess really, nothing solid, unless of course the Giants are wowed by a "QB of the future" and such.
So far, so good for UFA. I didn't like losing Kennard but he isn't a "game changer" either.
I still think they take a QB.
I suppose it's possible that they trade out if they aren't enamored with any of them, but more than likely they view at least one of them as a franchise QB. If they do, it's really hard to leave him on the board.
Between RT and LT, it's not as cut and dried as folks are saying. Flowers struggles with technique, which is a sign that he's fighting a natural tendency. Assume he's right handed and footed, moving him to RT eliminates a huge mental barrier of switching your dominant side. Stand up and kick something and then throw something ( make it soft and round as not to injure co-workers or family members). If you are right dominant, what are your left sides doing during these motions? They are providing balance and stability. Now kick and throw with your weaker side and see how that feels and what the results are.
Using that as a guide, try to run or start moving forward but do so with one foot in front. Which one is it? Your trail leg should be your dominant side because you will plant and push off of it first. That rear leg explosion gets you moving forward. Now reverse it and see how you feel. It's not natural or as effective or as explosive. Now fight that dominant side against a 275 DE bearing down on you. Even a split second can give him an edge and you can be beaten quickly. Take that physical struggle away and your movements are more natural and explosive. If and it's a big if, Flowers is pretty dominantly right handed and footed he will be more comfortable on the other side.
It's not definitely the case but it is conceivable that playing more naturally to your dominant side will produce more consistent results. It was ages ago but when I played TE and had to line up on the left side I always hated it because I an extremely right handed and footed. Put me on the right and I am far more comfortable.
If and it's a big if, Flowers is pretty dominantly right handed and footed he will be more comfortable on the other side.
It's not definitely the case but it is conceivable that playing more naturally to your dominant side will produce more consistent results. It was ages ago but when I played TE and had to line up on the left side I always hated it because I an extremely right handed and footed. Put me on the right and I am far more comfortable.
That is true but you can also argue the other side. If he has always played on the left side he developed a technique and repeated over and over since probably high school. To switch to the right would reverse everything he has done for the last 10 years (i admit that's an assumption I don't know the specifics of flower's career). I am not saying he couldn't do it, it could take some time getting used to and training.
The best analogy I can think of is boxing a southpaw. If you only face orthodox (righty) fighters and you face a southpaw you are going to have a difficult time. However if you train for the fight by working with a lefty, come fight time it will be much more natural (less awkward). You have to train your brain.
The idea of Flowers moving to RT or RG is a great topic. All I want to offer to the convo is, we do know when he was drafted the original plan was for him to start on the right side and eventually move to the left. Yes, if he is right handed the right side may be more natural for him. Add to this that the TE will line up more in the right side so this could really help in pass pro forcing the DE out wider.
As for the move to RG, his experience at tackle can actually help Flowers because of stunts and LB blitzes, and DT are usually a little slower on counter moves so this should benefit Flowers as well. He is an athlete for such a big dude so pulling should be a big problem. And one last point, traditionally, the RG position is the strong side OG and doesn't pull as much as the LG. It's more Double team, slipping to second level, reach blocks, angle blocks. Flowers is a very strong and powerful guy. I think he could be a mauler at RG.
Between RT and LT, it's not as cut and dried as folks are saying. Flowers struggles with technique, which is a sign that he's fighting a natural tendency. Assume he's right handed and footed, moving him to RT eliminates a huge mental barrier of switching your dominant side. Stand up and kick something and then throw something ( make it soft and round as not to injure co-workers or family members). If you are right dominant, what are your left sides doing during these motions? They are providing balance and stability. Now kick and throw with your weaker side and see how that feels and what the results are.
Using that as a guide, try to run or start moving forward but do so with one foot in front. Which one is it? Your trail leg should be your dominant side because you will plant and push off of it first. That rear leg explosion gets you moving forward. Now reverse it and see how you feel. It's not natural or as effective or as explosive. Now fight that dominant side against a 275 DE bearing down on you. Even a split second can give him an edge and you can be beaten quickly. Take that physical struggle away and your movements are more natural and explosive. If and it's a big if, Flowers is pretty dominantly right handed and footed he will be more comfortable on the other side.
It's not definitely the case but it is conceivable that playing more naturally to your dominant side will produce more consistent results. It was ages ago but when I played TE and had to line up on the left side I always hated it because I an extremely right handed and footed. Put me on the right and I am far more comfortable.
Also, people are not pulling RT out of their arses.
Flowers was drafted to play and penciled in at RT before Beatty tore his pec lifting weights prior to the 2015 season. Putting Flowers on the left side was a mad scramble.
The guy has zero technique and obviously is not buying into the system
Or he didn't buy into the System.
You move him to the middle...you just took his LT money away...
With this kids past....he won't move to the middle
LT money? If he can't plat RT and won't move inside, he's costing himself any money going forward. I'd think any player, especially a young one would want to prove they can play in their walk year and get another contract.
Guard salaries have been closing the gap recently with Osemele and now Norwell.
And not that it matters for Flowers, but the last CBA combined all OL under a single FT category.
RE: People will be surprised how much play calling
Will impact the perception of our ol.
Its going to be night and day and with the signings yesterday its looking up for the offense
Exactly! The play calling was atrocious the last couple years.
Some coaches make life easier for the OL, others do the opposite, with predictability, etc. Not to mention the fact that we had a FB (briefly) and a blocking TE that Mcadoo never or rarely used! It was pathetic.
Mckenzie was a very good RT, but there's a reason he never tried LT
there's also a reason why David Diehl was an average guard and yet also able to be an average LT even though it's a harder position. At the end of his career he was getting blown off the ball when they tried to kick him inside and yet he was still somehow able to be halfway effective when they moved him back out to T.
It's hard to identify the logic or the reason why some of the above is true, but it does point to a reality that sometimes different players are just better suited to certain positions. As someone who watched Flowers for all 3 years in college, it doesn't shock me that he wasn't a top LT. He is more of an oversized athlete than he is a graceful or coordinated athlete. He is never going to win dancing with the stars. RT always seemed like it would be a more natural position for his style of play, which is more brawling. Mainly due to injuries to players around him, he has never been put in his best position to succeed here. Despite that, he's also been unfairly blamed for the problems of an entire line that was dysfunctional at all 5 spots, not just his. I really think he can be part of the solution and one of the better right tackles in the league, especially if there's an offensive system that's more OL friendly than the last one.
Last thing - I actually don't think he'd be a very good guard. That would seemingly be an entirely new footwork skillset 'in a phonebooth' and it would expose 1 of his bigger weaknesses, which is when shorter players can get leverage on him like James Harrison did.
LT who moved over and became a dominant RT. Kid started playing football as a Junior in HS if I remember correctly. Still young so give him time on the right side maybe his skills will translate better there.
He was a left guard for Jacksonville, but I think his strengths and
Will impact the perception of our ol.
Its going to be night and day and with the signings yesterday its looking up for the offense
Great to read this. Excited to see what Schurmurs consistent commitment to play action passing game could do to slow down pass rush and mix up defenses.
some combination of Wheeler and Flowers. I am intrigued at the possibility of Wheeler at LG. He obviously needed to get stronger but with an entire offseason in the strength and conditioning program I think that he could play LG for a couple of seasons until he could replace Solder at LT.
Now I know Omameh played LG with the Jags but since he is a better run blocker than pass protector he would probably be a better fit at RG unless Flowers struggles at RT forcing Wheeler into the starting lineup at RT with Flowers kicking inside to RG where it most likely would be his best position.
3 of the draft. If we can pull a Tackle (Conner Williams for example), I bet they try Flowers at RG. If we get someone like Hernandez, then I bet Flowers slides in at RT.
Hilarious today, I almost spit my coffee out!
What did DG say he was going to do? Fix the lines, stop the run (which means fix the LB position). He did the same stuff in Carolina. He know what he's doing.
lol
watchy - ( New Window )
Just turned 28
Lol yup! He sucks. Shouldn't sign anybody :)
Nice find, thanks
Ok, this made me actually LOL
Whole team is in fact.
Link - ( New Window )
😂😂😂😂😂
Exactly opposite of what the article Joey linked to says.
Omameh
Jones
Greco
Flowers
Pending draft.
We are set at tackle.. Solder and Wheeler on the left side Flowers and Bisnowatty on the right.
We need interior help in the draft.
We are set at tackle.. Solder and Wheeler on the left side Flowers and Bisnowatty on the right.
We need interior help in the draft.
and we will get it. very good draft class at G/C
hernandez, smith, price, ragnow, wynn are all guys we could be looking at round 2-3
Whether Gettleman can fix this team remains to be seen - but one thing I am certain of is that he's very intent on fixing this offensive line ASAP.
It should never taken as long as it did with Reese (and he STILL never fixed it!)
This line is not going to continue to be a fucking embarrassment for several years. I'm pretty confident of that much.
Whether Gettleman can fix this team remains to be seen - but one thing I am certain of is that he's very intent on fixing this offensive line ASAP.
It should never taken as long as it did with Reese (and he STILL never fixed it!)
This line is not going to continue to be a fucking embarrassment for several years. I'm pretty confident of that much.
+1
Now let's go get Honeybadger!!!
Night at the Roxbury.
Quote:
to root for.
I can get you one made for cheap cheap price? You buy? Good quality, low markup good shirt for you.
LOL, throw in a parking pass and I'm sold!
LeCharles Bentley
@OLineWorld65
1h1 hour ago
More
Undrafted-Practice Squad-Cut-Adversity--- Never flinched. Had to do it the hard way...but he did it. So proud to see this young man reach this milestone in his career/life. Amazing. #ELITEMindset #OLPBuiltToDominate
im cautiously optimistic, Bentley has fooled us once in the past
Link - ( New Window )
Christ, guys. I mean...shit. Theyre big. I get it. Whatever. Off my lawn, etc., etc.
Did you not watch any Jags games? Sheesh.....rookies
Yes I think Frank Ragnow will be a steal if he's there in the 4th
Thanks for this. He looks in shape too.
Quote:
.
im cautiously optimistic, Bentley has fooled us once in the past Link - ( New Window )
Fuck. Way to kill the vibe.
This guy seems like a solid pickup. He will probably be the starting LG.
Solder-Omameh-Jones-Rookie- Flowers/Wheeler
Looks like an improved group to me. I like it so far.
This guy seems like a solid pickup. He will probably be the starting LG.
Solder-Omameh-Jones-Rookie- Flowers/Wheeler
Looks like an improved group to me. I like it so far.
Might we see Flowers at right guard?
Not at all. Same pool if you ask me.
Any position, you get a high value opportunity, you take. This is the year for it. Even a prospective great olt, you just slot them in at right T.
(OLs, RBs ,DT, de/lb , SS/lbs, DBs, true TE,
Has he mentioned anything on the Honey Badger?
Quote:
and a very physical team at that.
This guy seems like a solid pickup. He will probably be the starting LG.
Solder-Omameh-Jones-Rookie- Flowers/Wheeler
Looks like an improved group to me. I like it so far.
Might we see Flowers at right guard?
I have a sneaking suspicion that may be his optimal spot.
We'll find out in a few months...
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
In the free agent discussion thread?
Seems like a great fit at LG next to Solder.
Jones/Flowers/Wheeler isn't a bad remaining 3 but we will see how much better can make it. I'd rather grab a stud RT have Flowers at RG, Jones at C and use Wheeler as a backup swing tackle/Solders Caddy
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
I agree with you. I don't think there's much to gain by putting him @ RT.
RG is probably going to be his best spot. Some of the clumsy footwork and technique will be minimized a bit there.
I think Flowers will be better against DT's. He seems to struggle against DE's who are quick around the edge. He often fails to engage them and gets beat by quicks much more often than he gets beaten by strength.
He's very strong, I think if he can use his strength in smaller spaces, he'll be better off.
Obviously OG still requires athleticism and the ability to get to the second level or pull on iso's and powers - but I think Flowers will fare much better @ OG.
Fingers crossed.
We don't know what the O will look like...but I'm sure there will be instances for a pulling Guard.
We don't know what the O will look like...but I'm sure there will be instances for a pulling Guard.
This isn't going to be a pulling-type line.
Interesting
Interesting
Shurmur doesn't have just one particular scheme. He's picked up a lot by working with other offensive coaches, but Minnesota ran a lot of zone run while he was there. Not guessing on that. Dalvin Cook expressly said it's why he had an early comfort level with the offense, because it was familiar to him from college.
Been an interesting and great day.
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My guess is that is his best spot.
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
I agree with you. I don't think there's much to gain by putting him @ RT.
RG is probably going to be his best spot. Some of the clumsy footwork and technique will be minimized a bit there.
I think Flowers will be better against DT's. He seems to struggle against DE's who are quick around the edge. He often fails to engage them and gets beat by quicks much more often than he gets beaten by strength.
He's very strong, I think if he can use his strength in smaller spaces, he'll be better off.
Obviously OG still requires athleticism and the ability to get to the second level or pull on iso's and powers - but I think Flowers will fare much better @ OG.
Fingers crossed.
Actually, at OG, it is quite the opposite- footwork and hand placement are CRITICAL- and this is Flower's main
weakness.
It is mind-boggling that people think that a LT is completely different from RT- when in fact, it is just the mirror opposite of what you do at LT. The sets, the blocks, the zones are all the same- just on the opposite side.
What is even more stunning is people who think that Flowers would be better at OG- which truly IS a position that he has NEVER played. The blocks, the calls, the use of hands and feet and TOTALLY different.
No, Flowers is a OT. Sure he gets beat by quick ends- but he can also ride them around the play. You can't do that at OG- when you get beat, the play is essentially over because of middle penetration.
Flowers will be fine at RT- there will still be quick ends there- but the better ones tend to be lined over the QB's blind side- LT.
or, at least a refill soon.
Way to bring in the competition Dave. That is one thing that I thought this team lacked - especially the OL. Well, 2 things - high quality starters but, also .... there was nobody on the bench pushing them. Last year what OL was going to lose his job because there was a hard working, and talented up 'n commer - vying for his job? No one ....
But the guys that can do it are likely players with refined technique. And that's where Flowers has never measured up and hasn't developed or been consistent or frankly even been willing to be coached.
Is Halapio the back up Center now? Maybe a guy like Price would be a good draft pick as he can play both Guard and Center and then can transition to Center next year, possibly pushing Jones back to being depth.
As with Flowers, I think he stays at Tackle. His more natural side is the right side and he may feel more comfortable there. I do think he wont be handed the job however. I think hes going to have to fight off Wheeler this year at RT.
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
+1 ... mentioned the same thing in another thread. The signing of Solder also hastens the movement of Flowers because he will not be staying at LT now ... right? I would love to see him at guard. I think he will make a good (great?) one. We will see ....
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In comment 13866549 Eric from BBI said:
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My guess is that is his best spot.
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
I agree with you. I don't think there's much to gain by putting him @ RT.
RG is probably going to be his best spot. Some of the clumsy footwork and technique will be minimized a bit there.
I think Flowers will be better against DT's. He seems to struggle against DE's who are quick around the edge. He often fails to engage them and gets beat by quicks much more often than he gets beaten by strength.
He's very strong, I think if he can use his strength in smaller spaces, he'll be better off.
Obviously OG still requires athleticism and the ability to get to the second level or pull on iso's and powers - but I think Flowers will fare much better @ OG.
Fingers crossed.
Actually, at OG, it is quite the opposite- footwork and hand placement are CRITICAL- and this is Flower's main
weakness.
It is mind-boggling that people think that a LT is completely different from RT- when in fact, it is just the mirror opposite of what you do at LT. The sets, the blocks, the zones are all the same- just on the opposite side.
What is even more stunning is people who think that Flowers would be better at OG- which truly IS a position that he has NEVER played. The blocks, the calls, the use of hands and feet and TOTALLY different.
No, Flowers is a OT. Sure he gets beat by quick ends- but he can also ride them around the play. You can't do that at OG- when you get beat, the play is essentially over because of middle penetration.
Flowers will be fine at RT- there will still be quick ends there- but the better ones tend to be lined over the QB's blind side- LT.
First, I didn't say anything about hand placement not being important for a guard.
I also said nothing about the differences between LT/RT.
But anyway - for interior linemen, lateral footwork isn't as important. You have to handle bullrushing more than you have to handle speedy ends beating you off the edge. Flowers is more powerful than he is quick and he'll have more help inside than he does outside.
Bill Walsh said himself that being a guard requires less technique in pass pro than being a tackle.
If Flowers isn't panning out @ LT, he's not going to pan out @ RT either. Thats the entire point of sliding him inside.
It wouldn't hurt to see how he fares there. It's not exactly unheard of. We're not asking him to play defensive end.
That says very little.
But as I watch Flowers...I see a LT who's technique is simply flawed
Why would a move inside help?
He looks like a player that just does not have the AA for the pros
But as I watch Flowers...I see a LT who's technique is simply flawed
Why would a move inside help?
He looks like a player that just does not have the AA for the pros
Tackle - especially left tackle - requires what they call "good feet" in the NFL. Those offensive linemen who lack the "feet" to play in the NFL usually are moved to the interior. In other words, if you think Flowers is not athletically capable of playing tackle, guard is is best hope. But if you think Flowers can handle tackle, some think right side would be better because he would tend to see less athletic pass rushers from that side (though that is changing now in the NFL).
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
His best shot is probably at guard but my guess is DG lets him walk after the season.
Regardless of where you play on the line, you're obviously going to need to have good technique.
I think given Flowers' strengths and limitations, a move inside may benefit him. That's just my opinion. I can't back it up because he's never played there.
But I'm clearly not the only person who thinks the transition could potentially make sense given what we've seen of him thus far.
The guy has zero technique and obviously is not buying into the system
Or he didn't buy into the System.
You move him to the middle...you just took his LT money away...
With this kids past....he won't move to the middle
Molly is the singer in a band
Desmond says to Molly, girl, I like your face
And Molly says this 'cause he is a Giants fan -
Omameh, Omama
Life goes on - bra!
La-la how the life goes on.
Omameh, Omama
Life goes on - bra!
La-la how the life goes on.
The guy has zero technique and obviously is not buying into the system
Or he didn't buy into the System.
You move him to the middle...you just took his LT money away...
With this kids past....he won't move to the middle
LT money? If he can't plat RT and won't move inside, he's costing himself any money going forward. I'd think any player, especially a young one would want to prove they can play in their walk year and get another contract.
Until he buys into the culture...it won't matter if you play him at guard or
One of the tackle spots
Until he buys into the culture...it won't matter if you play him at guard or
One of the tackle spots
Ahh ok. I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant now that they've taken away his earning power of being a LT, he'll tank.
I was only saying I don't think he's that dumb, and would work to get another deal. Buying into the culture or not, it's only one year and he's gotta be smart enough to try his best regardless of position to get another deal.
If I'm Flowers I'm a Left Tackle in the NFL
If I'm Flowers I'm a Left Tackle in the NFL
He can say he is, but that doesn't mean people are going to pay him like one.
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My problem is I don't see Flowers even as a guard
The guy has zero technique and obviously is not buying into the system
Or he didn't buy into the System.
You move him to the middle...you just took his LT money away...
With this kids past....he won't move to the middle
LT money? If he can't plat RT and won't move inside, he's costing himself any money going forward. I'd think any player, especially a young one would want to prove they can play in their walk year and get another contract.
That was a thought I had for a while ... how susceptible would he be about a move to a different position? Besides pride, he he will be giving up substantial money?
However, if he is a "me first" type and not willing to do what it takes for the betterment of the team as a whole .... then let him walk.
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In comment 13866549 Eric from BBI said:
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My guess is that is his best spot.
Not sure why folks think he's going to do better at right tackle, a position he has never played. He'll have the same technique issues over there. Guard will be easier for him.
I agree with you. I don't think there's much to gain by putting him @ RT.
RG is probably going to be his best spot. Some of the clumsy footwork and technique will be minimized a bit there.
I think Flowers will be better against DT's. He seems to struggle against DE's who are quick around the edge. He often fails to engage them and gets beat by quicks much more often than he gets beaten by strength.
He's very strong, I think if he can use his strength in smaller spaces, he'll be better off.
Obviously OG still requires athleticism and the ability to get to the second level or pull on iso's and powers - but I think Flowers will fare much better @ OG.
Fingers crossed.
Actually, at OG, it is quite the opposite- footwork and hand placement are CRITICAL- and this is Flower's main
weakness.
It is mind-boggling that people think that a LT is completely different from RT- when in fact, it is just the mirror opposite of what you do at LT. The sets, the blocks, the zones are all the same- just on the opposite side.
What is even more stunning is people who think that Flowers would be better at OG- which truly IS a position that he has NEVER played. The blocks, the calls, the use of hands and feet and TOTALLY different.
No, Flowers is a OT. Sure he gets beat by quick ends- but he can also ride them around the play. You can't do that at OG- when you get beat, the play is essentially over because of middle penetration.
Flowers will be fine at RT- there will still be quick ends there- but the better ones tend to be lined over the QB's blind side- LT.
Flowers issues wont be exacerbated at guard. Hes exploited when the DE lines up wide and forces Flowers to move out and take a bigger split from the guard essentially putting him on an island. Thats when his feet and leverage get exploited.
Flowers could do well at guard. Hell be playing more so in a phone booth and DTs wont be as athletic as DEs. He shouldnt have a problem anchoring at his size/strength.
Obviously the o- line isnt close to be a good unit, nor the LBs, but they are better than they were on 12-31.
Probably, the Giants need one more DB.
If our line can NOT FALSE START on 3rd and short, how sweet it will be, too
Thing they are done with the OL for now or more to come?
Anything going down today? Thanks!
Also any idea who the Giants are sending out to the Rosen Pro Day today?
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Not a bad day 2
Anything going down today? Thanks!
Also any idea who the Giants are sending out to the Rosen Pro Day today?
I think Milton is gonna be there to help Rosen warm up.
I also believe we'll trade down a bit and get extra picks and OL Allen round 1 in this draft. Just a guess really, nothing solid, unless of course the Giants are wowed by a "QB of the future" and such.
So far, so good for UFA. I didn't like losing Kennard but he isn't a "game changer" either.
Its going to be night and day and with the signings yesterday its looking up for the offense
I also believe we'll trade down a bit and get extra picks and OL Allen round 1 in this draft. Just a guess really, nothing solid, unless of course the Giants are wowed by a "QB of the future" and such.
So far, so good for UFA. I didn't like losing Kennard but he isn't a "game changer" either.
I still think they take a QB.
I suppose it's possible that they trade out if they aren't enamored with any of them, but more than likely they view at least one of them as a franchise QB. If they do, it's really hard to leave him on the board.
Using that as a guide, try to run or start moving forward but do so with one foot in front. Which one is it? Your trail leg should be your dominant side because you will plant and push off of it first. That rear leg explosion gets you moving forward. Now reverse it and see how you feel. It's not natural or as effective or as explosive. Now fight that dominant side against a 275 DE bearing down on you. Even a split second can give him an edge and you can be beaten quickly. Take that physical struggle away and your movements are more natural and explosive. If and it's a big if, Flowers is pretty dominantly right handed and footed he will be more comfortable on the other side.
It's not definitely the case but it is conceivable that playing more naturally to your dominant side will produce more consistent results. It was ages ago but when I played TE and had to line up on the left side I always hated it because I an extremely right handed and footed. Put me on the right and I am far more comfortable.
Hey Hitdog, any thoughts on the possibility of the Honey Badger coming to NYG?
Thanks for all the dirt!
It's not definitely the case but it is conceivable that playing more naturally to your dominant side will produce more consistent results. It was ages ago but when I played TE and had to line up on the left side I always hated it because I an extremely right handed and footed. Put me on the right and I am far more comfortable.
That is true but you can also argue the other side. If he has always played on the left side he developed a technique and repeated over and over since probably high school. To switch to the right would reverse everything he has done for the last 10 years (i admit that's an assumption I don't know the specifics of flower's career). I am not saying he couldn't do it, it could take some time getting used to and training.
The best analogy I can think of is boxing a southpaw. If you only face orthodox (righty) fighters and you face a southpaw you are going to have a difficult time. However if you train for the fight by working with a lefty, come fight time it will be much more natural (less awkward). You have to train your brain.
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In comment 13866755 hitdog42 said:
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Not a bad day 2
Anything going down today? Thanks!
Also any idea who the Giants are sending out to the Rosen Pro Day today?
I think Milton is gonna be there to help Rosen warm up.
Like a fluffer?
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In comment 13866758 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 13866755 hitdog42 said:
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Not a bad day 2
Anything going down today? Thanks!
Also any idea who the Giants are sending out to the Rosen Pro Day today?
I think Milton is gonna be there to help Rosen warm up.
Like a fluffer?
I thought that was supposed to be bad for you before a sporting event?
The idea of Flowers moving to RT or RG is a great topic. All I want to offer to the convo is, we do know when he was drafted the original plan was for him to start on the right side and eventually move to the left. Yes, if he is right handed the right side may be more natural for him. Add to this that the TE will line up more in the right side so this could really help in pass pro forcing the DE out wider.
As for the move to RG, his experience at tackle can actually help Flowers because of stunts and LB blitzes, and DT are usually a little slower on counter moves so this should benefit Flowers as well. He is an athlete for such a big dude so pulling should be a big problem. And one last point, traditionally, the RG position is the strong side OG and doesn't pull as much as the LG. It's more Double team, slipping to second level, reach blocks, angle blocks. Flowers is a very strong and powerful guy. I think he could be a mauler at RG.
Using that as a guide, try to run or start moving forward but do so with one foot in front. Which one is it? Your trail leg should be your dominant side because you will plant and push off of it first. That rear leg explosion gets you moving forward. Now reverse it and see how you feel. It's not natural or as effective or as explosive. Now fight that dominant side against a 275 DE bearing down on you. Even a split second can give him an edge and you can be beaten quickly. Take that physical struggle away and your movements are more natural and explosive. If and it's a big if, Flowers is pretty dominantly right handed and footed he will be more comfortable on the other side.
It's not definitely the case but it is conceivable that playing more naturally to your dominant side will produce more consistent results. It was ages ago but when I played TE and had to line up on the left side I always hated it because I an extremely right handed and footed. Put me on the right and I am far more comfortable.
Exactly - Talk to a basketball player.
Flowers was drafted to play and penciled in at RT before Beatty tore his pec lifting weights prior to the 2015 season. Putting Flowers on the left side was a mad scramble.
Pretty sure Bentley co-signed Richburg and Jerry.
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Pretty sure Bentley co-signed Richburg and Jerry.
Thats because they were paying him. Is Omameh a client?
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My problem is I don't see Flowers even as a guard
The guy has zero technique and obviously is not buying into the system
Or he didn't buy into the System.
You move him to the middle...you just took his LT money away...
With this kids past....he won't move to the middle
LT money? If he can't plat RT and won't move inside, he's costing himself any money going forward. I'd think any player, especially a young one would want to prove they can play in their walk year and get another contract.
Guard salaries have been closing the gap recently with Osemele and now Norwell.
And not that it matters for Flowers, but the last CBA combined all OL under a single FT category.
Its going to be night and day and with the signings yesterday its looking up for the offense
Exactly! The play calling was atrocious the last couple years.
Some coaches make life easier for the OL, others do the opposite, with predictability, etc. Not to mention the fact that we had a FB (briefly) and a blocking TE that Mcadoo never or rarely used! It was pathetic.
It's hard to identify the logic or the reason why some of the above is true, but it does point to a reality that sometimes different players are just better suited to certain positions. As someone who watched Flowers for all 3 years in college, it doesn't shock me that he wasn't a top LT. He is more of an oversized athlete than he is a graceful or coordinated athlete. He is never going to win dancing with the stars. RT always seemed like it would be a more natural position for his style of play, which is more brawling. Mainly due to injuries to players around him, he has never been put in his best position to succeed here. Despite that, he's also been unfairly blamed for the problems of an entire line that was dysfunctional at all 5 spots, not just his. I really think he can be part of the solution and one of the better right tackles in the league, especially if there's an offensive system that's more OL friendly than the last one.
Last thing - I actually don't think he'd be a very good guard. That would seemingly be an entirely new footwork skillset 'in a phonebooth' and it would expose 1 of his bigger weaknesses, which is when shorter players can get leverage on him like James Harrison did.
I think having a competent HC/OC is going to make a huge difference.
Its going to be night and day and with the signings yesterday its looking up for the offense
Great to read this. Excited to see what Schurmurs consistent commitment to play action passing game could do to slow down pass rush and mix up defenses.
Hitdog, is there any news about whether or not the Giants are considering using Wheeler at guard this season?
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In comment 13866477 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Pretty sure Bentley co-signed Richburg and Jerry.
Thats because they were paying him. Is Omameh a client?
I assume so based on his tweet since I think the hashtags were in reference to his academy.
Now I know Omameh played LG with the Jags but since he is a better run blocker than pass protector he would probably be a better fit at RG unless Flowers struggles at RT forcing Wheeler into the starting lineup at RT with Flowers kicking inside to RG where it most likely would be his best position.
I like Omameh but I hope the contract is for 3-4 years worth 3-4 million per.
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Hearing contract Giants put together for Patrick Omameh is a three-year deal for "starter money.''
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In comment 13866477 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Pretty sure Bentley co-signed Richburg and Jerry.
Thats because they were paying him. Is Omameh a client?
Do you think Bentley would endorse anyone who isn't?
What did DG say he was going to do? Fix the lines, stop the run (which means fix the LB position). He did the same stuff in Carolina. He know what he's doing.
Probably more than that. How old or those deals?
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