After reading John Fox's article, I came away wondering the way Fox describes utilizing Barkley would extend his career. My thought was just the presence of Barkley along with OBJ, Shepherd and Engram would pose more of a problem in defensing such a line up. At the same time, would this give less touches to Barkley, creating a less wear and tear of a RB. Could using Barkley as an all purpose weapon as opposed to a pound the rock running back extend his career given the other weapons on the field? Just a thought.
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Then the following year with your 39 year old quarterback, make another run.
That seems like more of a reach than does taking any of the top three quarterbacks does.
Did you read the threads I linked. I say that there has been no RB in the past 25 years that provided enough value for the #2 pick
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and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?
You forgot to mention Eli, Engram, Shepard and what should be an improved OLine.
And hopefully a coach who can make use of all the weapons.
People like to say that even though Barkley is the best player in the draft, by a large margin, that he is not worth the #2 pick. Personally, I think this QB class is overhyped and none are worth the #2 pick. So I say take the best player in the draft, even if you are over drafting him. He will not make it past the Browns #4.
Wait until Eli is ready to retire in 2 years and then draft your QB if Webb sucks. You will have a great team to plug a rookie QB into by then. Even if you have to overpay to draft him in 2020.
You forgot that the offensive line sucks, and there is no time for them to get open in the passing game, and no holes for your very expensive RB to work with...
Its hard to generate offense when you have multiple defensive guys in the backfield right at the snap, no matter how good your skill position players are.
It takes two to tango. The draft is limited at the very top so if we are to trade down we would want to be in the range to still get from that level. What if nobody in that range is willing to trade up? Inefficient use of draft capital is trading down for the sake of trading down regardless of what talent you expect to be there at the later picks
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In comment 13913992 Ira said:
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and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?
You forgot to mention Eli, Engram, Shepard and what should be an improved OLine.
And hopefully a coach who can make use of all the weapons.
People like to say that even though Barkley is the best player in the draft, by a large margin, that he is not worth the #2 pick. Personally, I think this QB class is overhyped and none are worth the #2 pick. So I say take the best player in the draft, even if you are over drafting him. He will not make it past the Browns #4.
Wait until Eli is ready to retire in 2 years and then draft your QB if Webb sucks. You will have a great team to plug a rookie QB into by then. Even if you have to overpay to draft him in 2020.
You forgot that the offensive line sucks, and there is no time for them to get open in the passing game, and no holes for your very expensive RB to work with...
Its hard to generate offense when you have multiple defensive guys in the backfield right at the snap, no matter how good your skill position players are.
The Giants have addressed the OLine so far and I would fully expect their second pick to be the best OLineman available.
You also forget that we played with mainly scrub receivers for most of the year. Shepard was in and out of the lineup. Engram was the only threat to catch the ball.
That was a D Coordinator's wet dream. Of course most teams brought constant pressure.
Even a slight improvement in the OLine could be huge if you can threaten the whole field.
But, I guess it's better to concede the next 2 years and have a high priced rookie QB sit on the bench or play without a running game.
I guess it comes down to this: Would you rather draft a rookie QB with a great cast of skill players in 2 years and be in position to at the very least compete now? I bet even if Webb in a notch below one of the QBs this year he would still be better off with Barkley in the backfield then say Darnold would be with no running game.
I really believe that this team competes if they draft Barkley. I would be less concerned about the offense and more concerned about the defense if they choose Barkley. Actually, I am more concerned about the defense right now.
Browns have no QB for years. They have to draft one. Same with the Jest. Once again, everyone is sticking a fork in Eli's back. The front office still still could have cut ties in the off season with Eli and didn't. They recognize that they can still win with him. I so hope he goes out this year and proves all the people pushing him out the door wrong.
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NYJ are a lock to select a QB at #3. If they don't believe a franchise QB is there for them at #2, then trade down. I don't see any justification for picking a non-QB at #2. That said, I'm hoping we take Darnold or Rosen at #2.
It takes two to tango. The draft is limited at the very top so if we are to trade down we would want to be in the range to still get from that level. What if nobody in that range is willing to trade up? Inefficient use of draft capital is trading down for the sake of trading down regardless of what talent you expect to be there at the later picks
Bingo! It is illogical to trade down for the sake of trading down. Trading out just because of a position and you have that player significantly higher at that “lesser position” Doesn’t make any sense, particularly if the player is capable of completely changing an opposing teams game plan.
I sleep soundly if Eli is retired and there is no viable replacement and the OL is still a mess.
The Giants will move away from 11 personnel (three wide receivers, one tight end, and one running back) and towards a 12 personnel-based offense in 2018 (with hints of 21 and 11 personnel) under new head coach Pat Shurmur. When Giants show 12 personnel, with Barkley, Odell Beckham Jr., Evan Engram, Brandon Marshall or Sterling Shepard, and an extra tight end (Rhett Ellison), it will make things very difficult on opposing defensive coordinators.
The Giants could then opt to run the football with seven blockers, fake the run (play action is a staple of new head coach Pat Shurmur's offense), or motion Barkley out to the slot and get him mismatched against a linebacker in coverage.
Eli is very good at play action. all the hand wringing about the OL is ignoring the fact that Gettleman has already stated that the OL is an issue. He has already signed two FA OL.. and will definitely draft one more and probably bring in a few UDFA as well. Shurmur was a huge part of the Vikings starting 4 new offensive lineman some of them at different positions last year.
The Giants would be able to run 12 personnel (very effectively ( 1 RB, 2WR, 2TE ).. especially with the threats of either Engram or Barkley both attacking LB's with their speed in the passing game...
They could start out in a 12 package but it could become an 11 with either Barkley or Engram being utilized as a WR..
They could run a 21 package with Ellison effectively being a FB.. something he did with the Vikings when they ran Adrian Peterson a lot..
Basically with Barkley you have a plaer who can run the ball.. but also be utilized as a weapon to attack LB's in the passing game.. the multiple different offensive packages could give DC's a fit.. and all of you skill position players would be fast.. the Giants would actually have speed that threatens a defense with OBJ, SQ and EE and to a somewhat lesser extent SS..
Barkley should legitimately be in the discusssion @ #2.. If you think of him as just a RB your doing yourself a disservice.. I like what Ourlad's said. He is a weapon.. You need to figure out how to utilize him to make the entire offense better..
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In comment 13914149 BladeCleaver said:
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In comment 13913992 Ira said:
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and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?
You forgot to mention Eli, Engram, Shepard and what should be an improved OLine.
And hopefully a coach who can make use of all the weapons.
People like to say that even though Barkley is the best player in the draft, by a large margin, that he is not worth the #2 pick. Personally, I think this QB class is overhyped and none are worth the #2 pick. So I say take the best player in the draft, even if you are over drafting him. He will not make it past the Browns #4.
Wait until Eli is ready to retire in 2 years and then draft your QB if Webb sucks. You will have a great team to plug a rookie QB into by then. Even if you have to overpay to draft him in 2020.
You forgot that the offensive line sucks, and there is no time for them to get open in the passing game, and no holes for your very expensive RB to work with...
Its hard to generate offense when you have multiple defensive guys in the backfield right at the snap, no matter how good your skill position players are.
The Giants have addressed the OLine so far and I would fully expect their second pick to be the best OLineman available.
You also forget that we played with mainly scrub receivers for most of the year. Shepard was in and out of the lineup. Engram was the only threat to catch the ball.
That was a D Coordinator's wet dream. Of course most teams brought constant pressure.
Even a slight improvement in the OLine could be huge if you can threaten the whole field.
But, I guess it's better to concede the next 2 years and have a high priced rookie QB sit on the bench or play without a running game.
I guess it comes down to this: Would you rather draft a rookie QB with a great cast of skill players in 2 years and be in position to at the very least compete now? I bet even if Webb in a notch below one of the QBs this year he would still be better off with Barkley in the backfield then say Darnold would be with no running game.
I really believe that this team competes if they draft Barkley. I would be less concerned about the offense and more concerned about the defense if they choose Barkley. Actually, I am more concerned about the defense right now.
Browns have no QB for years. They have to draft one. Same with the Jest. Once again, everyone is sticking a fork in Eli's back. The front office still still could have cut ties in the off season with Eli and didn't. They recognize that they can still win with him. I so hope he goes out this year and proves all the people pushing him out the door wrong.
The Giants have not addressed the OLine yet...
Don't get me wrong, getting Solder and Omameh were good moves.
But its a work in progress. They addressed 1 position with a decent player, but he is in the middle when it comes to starting LT. He is not a top 10 LT, but he is decent.
Assuming Flowers bothers to return, 60% of the OL are the same failures from last year. Granted, Pugh can not stay healthy, but when he was, he was a significantly better LG than Omameh.
So we got much better at LT, worse than a healthy Pugh at LG, and the rest are holdovers. Expecting some sort of magical improvement in the overall play of the line is delusional. Maybe incrementally better... But another off season and it has a chance to be much better in 2019. It just simply isn't there yet.
This is really the main point - had we just taken Todd Gurley instead of Ereck Flowers three years ago we would not be having this debate today... it doesn't matter that offensive linemen offer more value in the general sense. It only matters that Gurley was the Best Player Available and we were instead focused on filling a need on the line. When Scherff was taken by the Redskins unexpectedly with the fifth pick, we simply had to shift gears and take Gurley there...
Suddenly the Rams have a good OL, and the statistic quoted yards before a defensive player was withing 1 yard of the RB is not helped by the RB. Its pure a measure of the OL.
Gurley would look like a bust running behind the Giants OL the past 2 years (much like he did behind a poor Rams line in 2016, which was still significantly better the Giants). We would be soon looking at his second contract, and the cap dollars will go up... My bet is 4 years running behind the Giants OL, people would be saying that Gurley was a wasted pick and he is not worth bringing back and paying top dollar. Let him get it somewhere else. And we would not have made any progress towards a championship.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum
If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?
And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum
If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?
And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...
Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.
You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.
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Before the OL suddenly became elite
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum
If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?
And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...
Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.
You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.
I am not arguing Flowers over Gurley... Clearly Flowers was a mistake... But how about Marcus Peters instead of Flowers... If you are going to give me the option of redoing that pick, I would MUCH rather have Peters than Gurley.
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Before the OL suddenly became elite
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum
If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?
And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...
Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.
You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.
With regards to Gurley vs Ajayi... You are missing the point. Ajayi cost next to nothing... He was a 5th rounder to Miami and the Eagles gave up a 4th rounder... A FOURTH ROUNDER FOR A PRO BOWL RB!!!! Let that sink in.
The point is that the extra production you get from Gurley is not worth the cost. The draft pick and cap dollars can be better spent elsewhere to improve the team, while you can get a guy who is plenty good enough at RB for next to nothing.
And in Gurley's case, he was running behind one of the top 3 OLines... How much of his production is really due to the OL vs Ajayi and his OL (both of them). Granted Philly's OL is decent but nearly as good as the Rams.
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In comment 13914509 .McL. said:
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Before the OL suddenly became elite
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum
If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?
And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...
Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.
You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.
With regards to Gurley vs Ajayi... You are missing the point. Ajayi cost next to nothing... He was a 5th rounder to Miami and the Eagles gave up a 4th rounder... A FOURTH ROUNDER FOR A PRO BOWL RB!!!! Let that sink in.
The point is that the extra production you get from Gurley is not worth the cost. The draft pick and cap dollars can be better spent elsewhere to improve the team, while you can get a guy who is plenty good enough at RB for next to nothing.
And in Gurley's case, he was running behind one of the top 3 OLines... How much of his production is really due to the OL vs Ajayi and his OL (both of them). Granted Philly's OL is decent but nearly as good as the Rams.
We would likely not be having this discussion had we selected Ajayi - but we selected Mykkele Thompson to improve our "pass defense efficiency"... How did that work out? And then in 2016, instead of selecting Jordan Howard, we selected Paul Perkins - which I contend was just about as poor a draft selection as Reese ever made despite the fact it occurred in the fifth round. And then last year, we were jumped by Kansas City for Karim Hunt... hindsight tells us now that we should have taken either Kamara or Hunt in the second round...
So if you are going to wait until later rounds to get a running back, you had better be successful in the later rounds which unfortunately has not been the case around here over the past decade. The only chance we have to contend in 2018 is to support Eli with a balanced offensive attack. Simply improving the offensive line with our current roster of running backs as you suggest will not give us that balance right now when we have a super bowl winning quarterback still in his prime at the helm for the next several years.
Given the terrible choices made in the past, Gettleman simply has no choice now but to find that balance by selecting Barkley or trading for a more valuable haul of pics if he is presented with that option...
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In comment 13914509 .McL. said:
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Before the OL suddenly became elite
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum
If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?
And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...
Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.
You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.
I am not arguing Flowers over Gurley... Clearly Flowers was a mistake... But how about Marcus Peters instead of Flowers... If you are going to give me the option of redoing that pick, I would MUCH rather have Peters than Gurley.
Ironically they are now both on the same team - lets see who the Rams end up valuing more in the coming years... Peters is another selfish "Josh Norman" type talent who you and the Rams can keep... Gurley will be a HOFer...
Marshall Faulk had over 2800 carries in his career, and under 800 receptions. I wouldn't say he was ever "catching almost as many balls as he [was] getting handed."
Then they claim when we need a qb in 2 years we can trade up even if it cost us a fortune to get the qb.
HAHAHAHA...So trade a ransom in a few years for a qb when we are in position to take one now. And nobody can say for sure that the Giants have the 4qbs as out of the top 5. That is dumb if they do when people are throwing themselves all over to draft up.
Or are we to believe all teams are retarded and only DG is smart when it comes to acquring a qb?
It might be mute.
Or is it moot, like intelligent people spell it?