lottery pick this year too and have a long shot at #1 overall. Imagine if they added #1 overall and LeBron this offseason. They’d be able to challenge golden state.
lottery pick this year too and have a long shot at #1 overall. Imagine if they added #1 overall and LeBron this offseason. They’d be able to challenge golden state.
Only one spot behind the Knicks in the lottery and close to the same odds at number as the Knicks. They smartly rebuilt while the Knicks continue to spin the wheel.
also completely blew a couple of top lottery picks. It was very easy to see Okafor being a bust, no defense bigs that are average rebounders at best don't have a place in the NBA at this point. He was a good post offensive player, had no shot and played no defense and couldn't rebound, still can't fathom how teams saw something in him
Is downright comical. The Bulls never got a good look and tonight is no different.
Hey harden is guarding towns in the post... let’s send him to the corner. Minny going nowhere with him as a coach. Game has evolved in the last 10 years. He hasn’t.
also completely blew a couple of top lottery picks. It was very easy to see Okafor being a bust, no defense bigs that are average rebounders at best don't have a place in the NBA at this point. He was a good post offensive player, had no shot and played no defense and couldn't rebound, still can't fathom how teams saw something in him
They didn't want Okafor. They wanted Porzingis but his agent wouldn't let him work out with them. He should have. And they wanted Russell and the Lakers took him. Who should they have taken? Mario Hezonja?
To get 16 points. Finished -8, worst among all players in the game tonight. He was picked apart virtually every single play defensively. There are d leaguers that can help the wolves more than rose.
Along with ignoring the mismatches KAT had in the post (as weber pointed out ad infinitum), they had Teague, of all people, playing iso ball and just pounding the rock until he shot or drive.
And why have Rose guard Harden? Is Butler just not healthy enough to keep up with Harden? Or are they worried Butler would get too tired or collect too many fouls?
I loved how Chris Paul committed a "Chris Paul, Playoffs Ed." turnover Â
Thibs deserved to get ripped, especially for their late offense. It was like watching them play a game of, "How many possessions can we have at the end of the game without KAT touching the ball?" It sort've reminded me of the playoff game Dwight Howard bitched about not touching the ball enough when he was still in Orlando. People killed him for publicly criticizing SVG, but the thing was Dwight was actually correct... he didn't touch the ball enough.
The Cavs were embarrassingly bad and just lifeless early. Â
To get 16 points. Finished -8, worst among all players in the game tonight. He was picked apart virtually every single play defensively. There are d leaguers that can help the wolves more than rose.
Lol. Scornful Knicks fans are the best. 16/2/4 on 50% in 23 minutes off the bench is something a d-leaguer could do? And as regards to his defense.... I am pretty sure thibs told him to guard Harden. Another reason thibs sucks. Total mismatch. But who did guard harden well last night? He lit up butler and Wiggins just as bad.
The reason for -8..... the duo of towns and Wiggins were awful. Teague finally stepped it up in the 4th as well. I think he scored 11 of his 15 in the 4th.
To get 16 points. Finished -8, worst among all players in the game tonight. He was picked apart virtually every single play defensively. There are d leaguers that can help the wolves more than rose.
And you know I am just busting your balls. But Rose was asked to do way too much and KAT's either pussy job or Thibs inability to keep his ass in the post was the reason they lost.
Harden is still by far the worst man defender in the universe. Get Wiggins or Towns in the post when the yswitch everything and score at will.
and defensive players. The Wolves put a cap on this team when they extended Dieng and Wiggins and gave Gibson $14M a year and Teague his contract. I'm really not sure how Thibs can improve this roster under the current construct. Butler and KAT are so damn good it shouldn't be this hard to build a team around them.
I guess it's a bit much to blame the Wolves as they were a top 5 NBA team prior to Butler getting hurt, just perplexing how this team is run with its talent level.
also completely blew a couple of top lottery picks. It was very easy to see Okafor being a bust, no defense bigs that are average rebounders at best don't have a place in the NBA at this point. He was a good post offensive player, had no shot and played no defense and couldn't rebound, still can't fathom how teams saw something in him
That's part of the point of the "process" though. Hinkie talked about how no one is going to hit on all of their draft picks, so they'd do everything they can to acquire a bunch of top picks hoping to hit on some of them.
and defensive players. The Wolves put a cap on this team when they extended Dieng and Wiggins and gave Gibson $14M a year and Teague his contract. I'm really not sure how Thibs can improve this roster under the current construct. Butler and KAT are so damn good it shouldn't be this hard to build a team around them.
I guess it's a bit much to blame the Wolves as they were a top 5 NBA team prior to Butler getting hurt, just perplexing how this team is run with its talent level.
His first mistake was giving Dieng that hideous contract. Horrendous signing. Another scary thing is KAT and Wiggins have becomes worse defensive players. Rose couldnt guard me but at least he gave a shit last night where Wiggins just sat back and get abused every time Harden touched the ball.
They need to trade Wiggins, Dieng, and Gibson. Work around Teague/Butler/Towns and find some more shooters. Rose and Crawford work off the bench cause they can score.
Whats funny is Thibs could REALLY use another Bull who was traded who would fit nice with the Wolves and he is doing really well with his new team and that Mirotic. But Mirotic was another Thibs wasted early in his career and I dont think the two like each other.
should take a look at Wiggins. Wiggins has more hope as a primary scorer than a 3rd option, you're just not getting your return on him playing off ball. SAC can do a 3 for 1, giving Hield, WCS and Skal for Wiggins.
should take a look at Wiggins. Wiggins has more hope as a primary scorer than a 3rd option, you're just not getting your return on him playing off ball. SAC can do a 3 for 1, giving Hield, WCS and Skal for Wiggins.
Kings are a diaster of a franchise. It was criminal how much Randolph was playing this year. Hield for WIggins is interesting but they just drafted Justin Jackson as well.
he's the same age as Wiggins, I don't think you turn down a talent like Wiggins for someone like Jackson if he's on the table. You can make the case Wiggins was making visible, steady improvement each year before Butler arrived. Kings have enough role players and no apparent stars on the roster, Wiggins makes perfect sense even though the likelihood he reaches his ceiling in SAC is probably not very high. But its the direction SAC should be heading in.
Indy a real shot at winning this series. If Indy goes up 2-0 tonight, it might be over. I know that's crazy to say with LBJ on the other end, but winning 4 of 5-3 of them at Canseco-would be a tall order for Cleveland.
Lebron puts up ANOTHER incredible playoff performance 42/10/5 on 17/24 shooting. And his team needed every bit of it. For most guys that a career performance, for him it’s just another game.
And yet we’re talking about how the game is fixed, he’s whining, how can anybody root for him, etc. Its a joke. Normally smart posters made to look very silly here. Let’s have a better basketball discussion here than just complaining about the refs and claiming games are fixed.
Lebron puts up ANOTHER incredible playoff performance 42/10/5 on 17/24 shooting. And his team needed every bit of it. For most guys that a career performance, for him it’s just another game.
And yet we’re talking about how the game is fixed, he’s whining, how can anybody root for him, etc. Its a joke. Normally smart posters made to look very silly here. Let’s have a better basketball discussion here than just complaining about the refs and claiming games are fixed.
You’re better than this. I know you know the game but you let emotion blind you. This is one of the three greatest players of all time. Performing as well in year 15 as he did in year 5. It’s remarkable.
You’re better than this. I know you know the game but you let emotion blind you. This is one of the three greatest players of all time. Performing as well in year 15 as he did in year 5. It’s remarkable.
There is no doubt he is one of the greatest. He has already cemented being the 2nd best player ever. Thats not my problem. I love watching Lebron dominated.
But everytime the Cavs need a win, the same shit happens. Look at last night. Oladipo two fouls in the first minute. A bogus third on him in the 2nd period. A terrible intentional foul called on the Pacers. Pacers couldnt buy a call. Every time Indiana made a run - not a close call went against them, an outrageous one.
If Lebron came out and won by 100 doing this, I would be like - yep... Bron being Bron. But the game was set up right from the start for the Pacers to fail. The one good thing about this game was at least they didnt try to hide it ;)
If your thesis is true, that “everytime the Cavs need a win, the same shit happens” and the refs bail him out (it’s not and they don’t), would you care to explain the playoff/finals losses that LeBron haters like to throw in his face? Or does it just work both ways?
If your thesis is true, that “everytime the Cavs need a win, the same shit happens” and the refs bail him out (it’s not and they don’t), would you care to explain the playoff/finals losses that LeBron haters like to throw in his face? Or does it just work both ways?
How many straight years has he made it to the finals? No Lebron in the finals means ratings drop dramatically. So once he gets there, it doesnt matter.
as they do in all sports? And not that there's a big conspiracy and the fix is in?
You lose me when you start claiming conspiracy. And using Lebron always making the finals as evidence just doesn't hold water. The 2nd greatest player of all time, playing in the weaker conference is going to make the Finals in this sport. That's just the nature of it.
And he typically does so with very little resistance. There's no 2002 Kings/Lakers game 6 type game for him to point to as evidence. I can count on one hand the number of times his back has truly been against the wall pre-finals in this run since 2011. Celtics up 3-2 in 2012 (when he had maybe his best playoff game ever), down 2-1 to Chicago in 2015, down 2-1 to Indiana I think in 2012. That's about it, and those last two are a stretch. You could argue last night would qualify as well, and he reacted accordingly
My point being, he typically rolls to the Finals because he is that good, and the competition isn't too strong. There is no place for a league conspiracy or referee intervention there.
There's some really interesting things happening in the league right now. You're going to lose me when conspiracy theories start flying around
ratings for the opening Saturday of the playoffs were up nearly 20% across the board. I believe they are past the point of needing certain teams in the Finals to get a good rating, much like the NFL.
In 2002, they definitely needed the Lakers. Now, whether it's Cleveland, Houston, Philly, Golden State, OKC, whoever, viewership would be strong.
The league's two marquee franchises in the two largest markets have been largely terrible for at least the past five years and viewership continues to grow.
If ratings were what the league cares about at all costs Â
I agree with Kyle. I don't think it's a conspiracy. I just think some of these official flat out suck. Obviously LBJ gets some calls that others won't, but it's always been that way. Look at MJ.
Lebron gets calls in the NBA like every superstar before him. Â
as they do in all sports? And not that there's a big conspiracy and the fix is in?
You lose me when you start claiming conspiracy. And using Lebron always making the finals as evidence just doesn't hold water. The 2nd greatest player of all time, playing in the weaker conference is going to make the Finals in this sport. That's just the nature of it.
And he typically does so with very little resistance. There's no 2002 Kings/Lakers game 6 type game for him to point to as evidence. I can count on one hand the number of times his back has truly been against the wall pre-finals in this run since 2011. Celtics up 3-2 in 2012 (when he had maybe his best playoff game ever), down 2-1 to Chicago in 2015, down 2-1 to Indiana I think in 2012. That's about it, and those last two are a stretch. You could argue last night would qualify as well, and he reacted accordingly
My point being, he typically rolls to the Finals because he is that good, and the competition isn't too strong. There is no place for a league conspiracy or referee intervention there.
There's some really interesting things happening in the league right now. You're going to lose me when conspiracy theories start flying around
Kyle, I do agree with a lot of whatyou said. But these calls arent missed calls, they are outrageously bad. As a huge NBA fan, it takes the fun out of just watching the game. Do you want to watch a game where the refs take the teams best player out of the game in the first minute?
And I do disagee that the NBA doesnt need Lebron in the finals. They do. Outside of Philly, no one in the east would bring an audience to the finals. So if Philly plays cleveland - I wouldnt harp on it as much. But do you really believe the NBA wants to see a GS/Houston and Raptors finals? Or the crippled Celtics? I just dont see it.
Lebron goes to the finals because he is on the best team, you are right. But if there is a time he has a little scare - then I come a little more interested how the game is officiated. I mean last night he shot more free throws than the other team. The other teams best player was taken out of the game early and again in the 2nd quarter.
And again, this isnt Lebron getting calls - its the other team NOT getting them as well.
so I didn't catch Oladipo's first two fouls. I'll take your word for it that they were poor calls. The foul on the Love three was definitely a poor call.
But there are poor calls all around. Noticed a number of them in the fourth quarter of OKC/Utah. It's just how it goes. And superstars definitely get the benefit of them. But not because the league is telling them to handle it that way.
Are there more viewers if Lebron is in the finals? Probably. But my argument is the league is past the point where it has to worry about that. The relative difference in viewership isn't large enough if it's Philly instead of Cleveland that they need to start intervening.
certainly Toronto doesn't bring in as big a number. But it's still going to be highly watched and from what I've seen from Silver, I think he would welcome some new blood in the Finals.
Heard him speak at the Sloan conference a year ago and we could tell he wasn't exactly thrilled about Durant in GS and what it did to competitive balance.
certainly Toronto doesn't bring in as big a number. But it's still going to be highly watched and from what I've seen from Silver, I think he would welcome some new blood in the Finals.
Heard him speak at the Sloan conference a year ago and we could tell he wasn't exactly thrilled about Durant in GS and what it did to competitive balance.
If Silver wants competitive balance, they need a hard cap. This is so ridiculous how much players have control over their contracts. I am not saying they dont deserve a chance to get as much money as possible. But it dictates who plays where and who they want to play with.
RE: RE: Could it just be that NBA refs miss calls Â
as they do in all sports? And not that there's a big conspiracy and the fix is in?
You lose me when you start claiming conspiracy. And using Lebron always making the finals as evidence just doesn't hold water. The 2nd greatest player of all time, playing in the weaker conference is going to make the Finals in this sport. That's just the nature of it.
And he typically does so with very little resistance. There's no 2002 Kings/Lakers game 6 type game for him to point to as evidence. I can count on one hand the number of times his back has truly been against the wall pre-finals in this run since 2011. Celtics up 3-2 in 2012 (when he had maybe his best playoff game ever), down 2-1 to Chicago in 2015, down 2-1 to Indiana I think in 2012. That's about it, and those last two are a stretch. You could argue last night would qualify as well, and he reacted accordingly
My point being, he typically rolls to the Finals because he is that good, and the competition isn't too strong. There is no place for a league conspiracy or referee intervention there.
There's some really interesting things happening in the league right now. You're going to lose me when conspiracy theories start flying around
Kyle, I do agree with a lot of whatyou said. But these calls arent missed calls, they are outrageously bad. As a huge NBA fan, it takes the fun out of just watching the game. Do you want to watch a game where the refs take the teams best player out of the game in the first minute?
And I do disagee that the NBA doesnt need Lebron in the finals. They do. Outside of Philly, no one in the east would bring an audience to the finals. So if Philly plays cleveland - I wouldnt harp on it as much. But do you really believe the NBA wants to see a GS/Houston and Raptors finals? Or the crippled Celtics? I just dont see it.
Lebron goes to the finals because he is on the best team, you are right. But if there is a time he has a little scare - then I come a little more interested how the game is officiated. I mean last night he shot more free throws than the other team. The other teams best player was taken out of the game early and again in the 2nd quarter.
And again, this isnt Lebron getting calls - its the other team NOT getting them as well.
Agree, NBA wants Lebron, it just makes sense, best player, most marketable asset and well known name, but it seems like the Celtics always bring good ratings - I think they'd be ok with the C's over the Raptors or anyone other than CLE.
those Lakers Celtics finals are some of the best I've seen (though I am admittedly biased).
I don't think the NBA would mind if the Celtics somehow advance far enough to knock off CLE in a long series (though I believe that's unlikely).
hardest sport of officiate and football is the only sport that might even be close. You see the same types of passionate complaints from college basketball fans all across the country when they feel their team or the team they are rooting for isn't getting the calls.
The refs aren't going to be able to call "perfect" games or anything close that. All you can hope for is that the league evaluates officials by looking at tape, let's officials know bad habits or common mistakes that they make and put pressure on them to improve.
Some misses look egregious, but there's a lot of fans who get too caught up in every call and I think it's not a fun way to watch a basketball game. If you think there's some conspiracy to help Lebron get to the finals, then I'm not sure why you'd even waste your finite time watching the games.
I think the league would be OK with Cleveland, Boston, or Philly making the Finals. Toronto would be a TV nightmare. DeRozan and Lowry are nice players, but they're not marquee names & the Raptors don't have a huge fan base, though I'm sure Toronto the city would go crazy for them.
My ideal Finals matchup would be Houston Philly. Some new blood to shake things up. The ratings would be pretty damn good too.
I will jsut add something to your post about the game last night. If Lebron James (or James Harden, CP3) were called for the fouls that Oladipo were last night, they would have argued and complained. Then go the reporters last night and cry that they dont get those calls and that the referees have agendas.
Oladipo pleaded a little and was respectful after the game. I dont think I grew a player as much as I do in Oladipo. FOr what he had to put up with last year to having an amazing year this year..... hands down most improved player and one of the best two way players in the game.
in terms of viewership? I mean they have a whole country essentially rooting for 1 team, Toronto itself is a major city in the whole world, does it really lag THAT much?
And if there's a lack of interest it would be from the Raptor's historically poor track record, not because there's a lack of population compared to cities like Milwaukee and NO.
Personally I think the NBA would love for the Raptors to win rings, because as stated above, they would get a whole entire COUNTRY behind 1 team.
in terms of viewership? I mean they have a whole country essentially rooting for 1 team, Toronto itself is a major city in the whole world, does it really lag THAT much?
And if there's a lack of interest it would be from the Raptor's historically poor track record, not because there's a lack of population compared to cities like Milwaukee and NO.
Personally I think the NBA would love for the Raptors to win rings, because as stated above, they would get a whole entire COUNTRY behind 1 team.
Solid points and I was thinking that too prior to my post. Toronto is the fourth biggest city in North America & they have a pretty rabid fan base in Canada. You might be wrong. The casual American fan probably could care less about the Raptors, but they'd probably draw in casual Canadian basketball fans.
in terms of viewership? I mean they have a whole country essentially rooting for 1 team, Toronto itself is a major city in the whole world, does it really lag THAT much?
And if there's a lack of interest it would be from the Raptor's historically poor track record, not because there's a lack of population compared to cities like Milwaukee and NO.
Personally I think the NBA would love for the Raptors to win rings, because as stated above, they would get a whole entire COUNTRY behind 1 team.
Yes. Derozan and Lowry are good players but they arent household names. I mean look all the buzz that Lebron gets. Look at Simmons/Embiid. Look at Boston pre injury. If you brought up Toronto, the main response would be - yeah, they are ok.
Plus, I think they would get demolished by either GS or Houston (demolished meaning 5 games max). At least Lebron is usually good enough to get them to 6 or 7. Philly can give teams fits.
If Toronto plays a team from West and gets clobbered the first two games - is anyone really going to watch? I doubt it.
Canada has a very diverse population mix (especially Toronto). It seems everyone I know, friends and family, that live in Canada are interested in the NBA. I'm Indian and i'd figure that most Indian millennial males follow basketball in some regard, and even the broader Asian population does so as well. And Canada has the NHL but not MLB or NFL really to compete with (not sure how big CFL is relatively up there). And Indian people don't ice skate.
wouldn't be too bad for overall ratings (especially if vs Golden State). They'd do huge numbers in Canada. The USA TV deal is separate, so ABC/ESPN doesn't get credit for the millions of Canadians that would watch.
Vancouver was a good idea and I think the NBA should've tried harder to make it work. With the Sonics going to OKC, the NBA blew a chance to have some really fun Pacific Northwest rivalries with POR, SEA and VAN.
These cities are packing in 20K + to MLS games and the Blazers have done well in Portland for a while. the NBA blew it there IMO.
in terms of viewership? I mean they have a whole country essentially rooting for 1 team, Toronto itself is a major city in the whole world, does it really lag THAT much?
And if there's a lack of interest it would be from the Raptor's historically poor track record, not because there's a lack of population compared to cities like Milwaukee and NO.
Personally I think the NBA would love for the Raptors to win rings, because as stated above, they would get a whole entire COUNTRY behind 1 team.
I read (can't remember where)the reason why Toronto got all the early games in the MLB playoffs had to do with the revenue and that MLB doesn't get as much from them as it does US markets. NBA may have something similar.
Vancouver was a good idea and I think the NBA should've tried harder to make it work. With the Sonics going to OKC, the NBA blew a chance to have some really fun Pacific Northwest rivalries with POR, SEA and VAN.
These cities are packing in 20K + to MLS games and the Blazers have done well in Portland for a while. the NBA blew it there IMO.
I'd be shocked if Seattle doesn't have an NBA team within the next decade.
it's his first playoff run. It's a rarity seeing teams that are relying on young guys succeed. Mitchell and Simmons are in the minority, but both have awesome vets to fall back on. Gobert is a stud, Favors and Rubio have really stepped up late this season. Ingles delivers in the postseason.
As for Simmons, he's been leading the team but Reddick, Ilyasova and Belinelli have been great (at least in game 1).
we should keep in mind that Minnesota is the 8th seed, and the team they're playing against is just a lot better than they are.
I don’t think that’s even a fair assessment. They were clearly a top 3 seed in the west and probably a top 5 team overall when Butler was healthy. Only reason they’re in the playoffs is because butler came back in the final week. MIN is for sure a clear step above the hodge lodge of NO, POR, OKC, UTA and SAS at full strength.
Former Lakers coach and star Byron Scott, for one, said this week that he believes the team has targeted this summer for a quick jump-start rebuild, suggesting that LA will wind up with both Kawhi Leonard and LeBron James this summer.
Around the league, front-office sources agree with at least half that assessment.
“I think they go in hard for Leonard once the season is over and once the dust settles in San Antonio,” one executive told Sporting News. “(Leonard) wants to go to LA. There probably won’t be public demands on that, but he has leverage. He is going to be a free agent (in 2019). He’s an LA guy and he can just let teams know he won’t re-sign next year with anyone but the Lakers.”
There could be some complicating factors, however. The Spurs could try to work out their differences with Leonard and put a supermax deal (worth $200 million) in front of him in July, but the franchise is wary of doing so because Leonard played only nine games this season with his mysterious quad injury. San Antonio also has young players it will need to make decisions on, contract-wise, in the next year or two (Dejounte Murray, Kyle Anderson and Davis Bertans).
And there’s the Lakers, who would be hesitant to give up young players like Kyle Kuzma and Brandon Ingram to land Leonard this year, if they’re fairly certain they could sign him outright next year as a free agent. There’s some danger to that, however. Paul George, for example, was dead-set on going to the Lakers at this time last year, but Oklahoma City gambled and traded for him. Now, there’s a chance the Thunder can keep George.
chance of getting to the finals, but they are still playing sloppy and I don't think they have fully put it together yet. The Heat gave it all for three periods and then were totally dismantled in the 4th. At least the refs weren't fooled by Wade with his lean ins yesterday. Honestly, it drives me nuts when he does that.
It was amusing to see Wade trying to get tough with Justin Anderson Â
There may not even be a game 4. The Portland players might all be suffering radiation poisoning on account of being in range of Davis' nuclear assault. I mean look at this thing - ( New Window )
But I doubt he literally meant that all he cares about is preventing Rubio from having a statistical similar game. I'm sure he won't be totally happy if OKC loses the next game but Rubio scores 9 points and shoots 30%.
It's funny, the Westbrook criticism. I seem to recall a good many people giving Durant endless amounts of shit for not resigning himself to playing with a guy many people like to shit on, for the rest of his career.
is talking about Rubio having a good game which led to their success. Do people really think he cares if Rubio plays like shit if OKC lost?
Very weird narrative.
Yes he does care. RW cares about 1 thing. Russ’s stats. Once George leaves and he is surrounded by less than stellar players... he can get all the stats he wants, give all the snarls in the world, and never be a factor in the playoffs.
Say what you want about Durant, but he gave up personal stats for a title. I can’t see Westbrook doing the same.
goes out there caring about his stats, I think his ego distorts his view of how much of a positive impact he's actually making and never ceases to stop shooting bone-headed 3 pointers or tries to think the game at a high level. Once you prevent westbrook from getting to the rim every play, OKC becomes pretty easy to beat. Westbrook only looks for easy assists or pulls up for mid-range/long 3s. And it's pretty obvious you can't win many games in April with Westbrook as your primary ball-handler.
I won't bother arguing, you seem convinced no matter what happens.
Coming out to the press vocally about making sure someone doesn’t get stats and playing like a complete buffoon last night backs my case up.
Russell is was and always will be about Russell. Durant saw it and left.
I think George will leave OKC too rather than play with Westbrook long term. He seems like a tough guy to play with. Oladipo really took his game to another level this year also after getting away from Westbrook.
to any actual Rubio statistics? I only read that he would "shut that shit down" or something, which I interpreted to mean, "I'm going to prevent him from having that kind of impact on the next game."
I mean, it's pretty baselessly cynical to just say that all he cares about is holding someone below a certain statistical accomplishment that would make the defender look bad.
wrapped. Milwaukee’s offense is atrocious, just get a feeling like every half court possession has a bunch of wasted dribbles and will result in chucking a long 2. Despite how the team looks there is a gold mine of talent, should have their picking of a HC.
than tonight. Finish off the Thunder and watch the circus begin.
Cavs/Pacers series actually has been really good. Anyone else find it odd when the Cavs lose its because Lebron doesnt have enough but when Kyle Korver hit two huge threes in the last game to prevent them from going down 3-1, its barely mentioned in the media?
next year, Boston will field a lineup with 5 guys that will receive all star consideration, 3 of which have made All NBA teams. Oh and with Rozier and Morris coming off the bench.
next year, Boston will field a lineup with 5 guys that will receive all star consideration, 3 of which have made All NBA teams. Oh and with Rozier and Morris coming off the bench.
And if he loses to Philly, Boston will have to beat Simmons, Embiid, and Lebron.
Are more likely to be on different teams then the same ones next year. Lillard could also be on there as well, he met with management already before this season.
Ripple effects if Lebron would probably lead to a K-love trade too.
Kemba and Bledsoe also look like trade candidates heading into next year.
Cousins could be picked up by some other team on the relatively cheap
Ball was NOT of Lebron.
Lebron goaltended Oladipo's layup.
Expect Lebron to win this at the buzzer.
The goaltend was obvious at slow speed, but at regular speed that looked very close to 50/50, not an easy call. You think a 50/50 call isn't going LeBron's way, at the end of a playoff game, at home? It's not like he plays for the Warriors or something.
Ball was NOT of Lebron.
Lebron goaltended Oladipo's layup.
Expect Lebron to win this at the buzzer.
The goaltend was obvious at slow speed, but at regular speed that looked very close to 50/50, not an easy call. You think a 50/50 call isn't going LeBron's way, at the end of a playoff game, at home? It's not like he plays for the Warriors or something.
Refs get paid big bucks to get them right. Plus the ball wasn’t off Lebron earlier. Two pretty big calls. Still can’t ftho what McMillan was doing defensively at the end of the game.
Pacers had a foul to give too. They really blew that.
17 turnovers, Oladipo with a terrible game, and they were still right there. Doesn’t speak well to the Cavs chances in the later rounds. But that was a pretty great ending. Just got to appreciate something like that
This Cavs team is pretty bad - it's just LeBron being LeBron. Without him I don't think that team even sniffs the playoffs. The roster around him is garbage.
which could be flipped into something useful. But for now, the Kyrie trade could not have worked out worse for them. There is no reliable second scoring option. Kyle Korver is their #2 guy right now.
This Cavs team is pretty bad - it's just LeBron being LeBron. Without him I don't think that team even sniffs the playoffs. The roster around him is garbage.
I mean any Cavs team ever you can say that about. Even with Kyrie, when Lebron hasn't played Cleveland has a like a .200 record.
which could be flipped into something useful. But for now, the Kyrie trade could not have worked out worse for them. There is no reliable second scoring option. Kyle Korver is their #2 guy right now.
Isaiah Thomas was always extremely overrated. People foaming at the mouth at him from last year are now looking extremely foolished.
how much that hip injury affected Isaiah. He may have been overrated, but he was still a very good scorer. He is simply not the same player after that injury. I feel bad for the guy, he was heading for a big contract.
with 3 and D guys. Cleveland got it half right. But who on the Cavs is a shutdown defender? LeBron is a great free safety but can't use up his energy to play lock-down defense on each possession because he runs the offense and led the league in minutes played in his fifteenth season (insane).
The Cavs have no shot this year at beating whomever emerges from the West (if they make it that far), and LeBron will take the heat for another Finals loss in that case.
But, man, is it still awesome to sit back and watch him run an offense and play basketball. As fans of athletics, the next generation is going to be jealous that we watched him for his entire career.
This Cavs team is pretty bad - it's just LeBron being LeBron. Without him I don't think that team even sniffs the playoffs. The roster around him is garbage.
I mean any Cavs team ever you can say that about. Even with Kyrie, when Lebron hasn't played Cleveland has a like a .200 record.
Yeah, but Kyrie is world's better than anything else LeBron has there now or really has had there ever. He made a huge difference. LeBron is amazing but he can't carry this team all the way to a Championship.
The Isiah Thomas trade really did go terribly for them. He was a fantastic player before he got hurt.
I can't believe Jose Calderon is still in the LEAGUE let alone starting for a playoff team.
how much that hip injury affected Isaiah. He may have been overrated, but he was still a very good scorer. He is simply not the same player after that injury. I feel bad for the guy, he was heading for a big contract.
He can score. But he needs the ball in his hands a lot to score. With Lebon, those numbers were going to drop, most likely dramatically. And with him not being able to play a lick of defense, he was always an odd pairing with Lebron.
Houston works because guys of like Gordon, Ariza, and Green can do more than just score. Well Green not as much. But Gorodn and Ariza are good defenders and Gordon can score than just shooting 3s.
has been pretty decent in this round. Their adjustments on Oladipo have made a difference. Now I can't imagine that continuing against Golden State or Houston. But I do think much of their defensive issues were simply focus/effort issues during the regular season.
has been pretty decent in this round. Their adjustments on Oladipo have made a difference. Now I can't imagine that continuing against Golden State or Houston. But I do think much of their defensive issues were simply focus/effort issues during the regular season.
Ehhh...
Indiana really isnt that good though. haha. I mean they have no point guard. One guy who shoots it half way decently. And Turner kind of flat lined.
Lebron will beat Toronto because Toronto is Toronto. But the 76ers should be a fun series since Philly can score and not defend.
Oladipo. They're trapping him seemingly EVERY play as soon as he crosses mid court. It didn't work all that well the first two games, and trapping simmons is just flat out dumb considering how well Reddick and Saric can take advantage of being left wide open. Plus Simmons is 6'10" and can just pass right over a trap. Oh, and Embiid.
Indy has a pretty bright future, even though Boston/Philly are certainly outshining them. But at the end of the day, their 3 best players are are 25, 22 and 21 years old. If Indy had a true center that was a lob target and could rebound these traps would not nearly be as successful (thinking about Deandre Jordan in Indy). They start Turner and Thaddeus, neither of which are plus rebounder or true spacing threats, which hamstrings them especially at the end of games.
Knicks should draft Donovan Mitchell, I'd bring it up all the time too. (But I wasn't.) What a performance. He really does look like a young D-Wade.
PG is definitely gone and Billy Donovan should be given the boot. Damn near 90 games into a season and they didn't even remotely look in sync offensively. Melo was on the bench late while RAY FELTON was on the floor.
This is a HUGE 4th quarter for Cleveland. There is a 0 % chance LBJ stucks around if Cavs are bounced this early.
Right now, there’s NBA executives and TV guys praying Cleveland wins because if LeBron goes out, the Eastern conference ratings will fall like the Hindenburg.
This is a HUGE 4th quarter for Cleveland. There is a 0 % chance LBJ stucks around if Cavs are bounced this early.
Right now, there’s NBA executives and TV guys praying Cleveland wins because if LeBron goes out, the Eastern conference ratings will fall like the Hindenburg.
Boston/Philly is a good matchup but yes, Toronto/Indiana would get poor ratings (and Toronto would win pretty easily)
Oladipo was on the bench for only reason mate McMillan could make up.
That was a very strange move. That three minute stretch to start the 4th quarter with Lebron out likely cost them the game
I LOVE Sabonis, but his foul on Hill in the corner might've been the play that did them in. Pacers were the better team, but LeBron is LeBron. Besides, having the Cavs makes the series against the Raptors at least 2% watchable. If the Raptors lose to this sorry bunch, they need to be disbanded.
The Celtics gave them nothing outside. That was great defense and the Sixers defense was atrocious. I am not sure how many times you can leave them open for a 3. Give credit to the Celtics, they hit everything. They looked overmatched and intimidated. Definitely not one of Simmons better games.
I think that if Embiid stays on his feet the whole series Â
the Celtics could be in trouble. He's the the Freak in the sense that he can do whatever he wants on the Celtics interior and they have no answer. Well, maybe I should give Ojeyele some credit against giannis but he's not going to be on Joel.
RE: I think that if Embiid stays on his feet the whole series Â
the Celtics could be in trouble. He's the the Freak in the sense that he can do whatever he wants on the Celtics interior and they have no answer. Well, maybe I should give Ojeyele some credit against giannis but he's not going to be on Joel.
Brown on Simmons will be the series deciding matchup. Miami was guarding him with Winslow and Richardson, both who are below 6'5". Simmons won't eat in the post of off Brown and his athleticism is matched as well. I picked Philly to win the series but i think its a 50/50 at this point.
derozan's evolution as a more patient/complete player, will at least make the series with the cavs interesting, unlike last year's quick and brutal sweep.
the point where you can succeed with your best player relying on 16 foot jumpers. And bench becomes less meaningful when Lebron and Love are playing 40+ minutes.
Really think Toronto made a mistake by not using their bench pieces as trade trips. Fred Vanfleet can be poached. Powell lost plenty of trade value from last season. Toronto's big "power" play was trading for Ibaka. It's clear either management or ownership is uncomfortable doing anything remotely risky and that has put a cap on this team.
the point where you can succeed with your best player relying on 16 foot jumpers. And bench becomes less meaningful when Lebron and Love are playing 40+ minutes.
Really think Toronto made a mistake by not using their bench pieces as trade trips. Fred Vanfleet can be poached. Powell lost plenty of trade value from last season. Toronto's big "power" play was trading for Ibaka. It's clear either management or ownership is uncomfortable doing anything remotely risky and that has put a cap on this team.
who do you think the raptors should have traded for?
the Paul George deal with some combo of Wright, Powell, Ross and picks. I get the concerns about him not re-signing and that was warranted.
I don't think they could have flat out have outbidded Chicago for Butler, but they didn't even get an outright pick it was a pick swap and Lavine was coming off an ACL tear.
Cousins I've always thought would be a flat out upgrade over JV, and Toronto has some strong personalities like Lowry and Casey to handle that.
If they didn't trade for Ibaka I think Griffin would have been on the table. Could have easily given LAC a better offer, especially since they were searching for young cost controlled players.
There are risks with all these deals. Ujiri only does deals where he can be deemed the clear winner, buying on the cheap (Ibaka). But you're never really going to land a prominent player playing that game. Ibaka was as "risky" as he was willing to go. Toronto has overperformed as any team could have with Lowry and Derozan as their 2 best players and still needs another star if they are to be taken seriously.
by a point in game 1. Guess the raptors might as well quit.
They lost at home to a team that looked absolutely pathetic for the majority of their previous series. Unless you want to tell me the Pacers are better than the Raptors, they should be able to beat this version of the Cavs. Instead, they lost homecourt advantage already.
On a night when Lebron was nowhere near his best. They had to win that game.
Think the conspiracy theories can be put to rest, these refs are just bad. That foul on Lebron when Ibaka landed on his foot was absolutely awful and nearly ended the game
On a night when Lebron was nowhere near his best. They had to win that game.
Think the conspiracy theories can be put to rest, these refs are just bad. That foul on Lebron when Ibaka landed on his foot was absolutely awful and nearly ended the game
Yup. No way to sugarcoat this loss for Toronto. It was devastating, especially when LBJ was a mere mortal last night.
I was hopingCasey would go off on a Dennis green we let them off the hook rant. Can’t believe how ice cold the shooting was in the fourth.
Having a good bench is basically meaningless come playoff time. A good bench doesnt help you as much as a bad bench hurts you. The only difference between this Raptors team and those from years past is there's tons more hype and false hope around this years team.
Less than 10 seconds after entering a game for the first time in over a month, Curry drains his first 3 attempt.
That game was a barnburner. Of course the Barkley-Draymond slanging match will grab a lot of the attention, but it was a fun game to watch, and the Pelicans looked more like the team that swept the Blazers. Steph was good in his return, but he also had 6 turnovers and was careless with the ball, especially in the final minutes. Turnovers could end up being Warriors' Achilles heel if they're not more careful.
Forget after the series, they should fire Casey tonight and then ban Drake from all home games.
Drake is abysmal. How do they keep letting that clown make himself a part of the show? Perkins should have beat his ass down. Any other fan that keeps finduhimself in these situations would be banned for life.
I kind of wish they get swept. Casey has to get fired, right?
Shit, I don't know... how much blame for a 48 point, 14 assist game by LeBron lies at Casey's feet?
Nate McMillin executed a better defense against Lebron with Bogdan bogdonavic and Lance Stephenson. Doubled him on the drive every time. Nothing stops Lebron but it wasn’t 48 and 14.
I kind of wish they get swept. Casey has to get fired, right?
Shit, I don't know... how much blame for a 48 point, 14 assist game by LeBron lies at Casey's feet?
They got embarrassed at home after blowing game 1. They might get swept for the second year in a row and as this years 1 seed. They gave up 130 points. Something ain’t working there.
cause he is going back to his 8th straight finals which should be applauded under every circumstance...
But man, what an easy road it has been. I mean some of these teams are JV caliber to those out West. I mean a healthy Wolves/Pelicans team would be a 1/2 seed in the East.
When Boston is the 2nd best team and they dont even have their 2 best players - thats saying something.
at least with the top teams in the East with Boston and Philly on the come up. Indy has avenues to adding talent easily the next two off seasons. I just can't buy into Milwaukee not being dominant in a few years, I think a half decent coach can make them into a 55 win team with the talent already on the roster (and maybe a defensive/rebounding center).
I am obviously biased but I can see the Knicks being a 45 win team if/when KP plays his first healthy season. I also think the Bulls are the next team to follow The Process, still a few years away but things have been shaking out for them.
Toronto is still an annoying regular season team, I don't think they're that different from the recent Clippers teams that failed come playoff time. They are still "there".
GS has been to the foul line 39 more times than the Pelicans.
Hi Santa!
I know, it's bizarre. I mean, I knew at some point the consensus best team in the league would overtake the Pelicans when it comes to getting foul calls at home, but I didn't think it would only take 4 seasons.
If shut my mouth for a year. Single handily lost the last two games for his team.
Up 1... he shoots the ball with no shot clock and 17 left in game. Turns it over with 5 seconds left on a lazy pass. Misses uncontested dunk and layup in the 4th.
76ers would have been better with him on the bench.
If shut my mouth for a year. Single handily lost the last two games for his team.
Up 1... he shoots the ball with no shot clock and 17 left in game. Turns it over with 5 seconds left on a lazy pass. Misses uncontested dunk and layup in the 4th.
76ers would have been better with him on the bench.
He cant shoot, just play off of him, celtics are doing what the spurs did to lebron in the finals..
And the kid just turned 20, he’s going to be a star in this league for a long time. I can see them packaging Brown in a trade but Tatum should be untouchable for them
And the kid just turned 20, he’s going to be a star in this league for a long time. I can see them packaging Brown in a trade but Tatum should be untouchable for them
I've read multiple people say that, but why would they package Brown?
They're on the cusp of the ECF without Kyrie and Hayward.
Brown has star potential too IMO.
If Tatum and Brown continue to develop and Kyrie can stay healthy, why can't the Celtics compete without dealing Brown?
Or is Brown semi-redundant with Hayward? I know when Hayward went down, people said Brown would need to step up, and he has.
What I can see the Celtics do is trade Marcus Smart. Rozier may make him expendable.
And the kid just turned 20, he’s going to be a star in this league for a long time. I can see them packaging Brown in a trade but Tatum should be untouchable for them
I've read multiple people say that, but why would they package Brown?
They're on the cusp of the ECF without Kyrie and Hayward.
Brown has star potential too IMO.
If Tatum and Brown continue to develop and Kyrie can stay healthy, why can't the Celtics compete without dealing Brown?
Or is Brown semi-redundant with Hayward? I know when Hayward went down, people said Brown would need to step up, and he has.
What I can see the Celtics do is trade Marcus Smart. Rozier may make him expendable.
Oh I’m not sure I don’t follow them that closely, just based off what I’ve seen Tatum has more potential. And they have so many draft picks, they simply can’t make room for everyone. Somethings gotta give, maybe they make a move for Leonard?
As for the Sixers, they made 2 or 3 of the worst turnovers I've ever seen a professional basketball team make with less than 2 minutes left in regulation and/or OT. Long live "The Confetti Game".
and his team has a good of winning it all.... but man is Harden a brutal one on one defender. He’s good with help side and rebounding but he literally lets his man go right by hoping capela bails him out.
Toronto has to blow that thing up right? Crazy thing to say about a 1 seed, but it's just never going to happen for them. At least not as long as Lebron is still in the East.
Toronto has to blow that thing up right? Crazy thing to say about a 1 seed, but it's just never going to happen for them. At least not as long as Lebron is still in the East.
They need to fire Casey
Trade Derozan (best trade chip)
Trade Van Fleet (stuck with Lowry, might be 2nd best trade chip)
Trade Iabaka (salary relief)
And look at them now. I agree with that plan. It's the sad reality of the league, blow it up.
A lot of fans get caught up on records in the East the last few years. The thing was all the top or number 1 seeds outside Lebrons teams were heavily flawed. Many of them were grinders with decent benches. The problem is that doesnt work in the playoffs.
Bulls, Hawks, Raptors, and even to the Celts (they are going the right direction tho) were never serious contenders to beat Lebron cause they didnt have the right makeup or team structure to beat them. You need MULTIPLE defenders and bigs who can defend. These teams usually had one or the other.
Teams built to rack up wins over the long grind of the regular season, but not built for s short series.
I will say that if Boston had Kyrie and Gordon, Id make them the heavy favorite.
Tatum, Brown, and Horford could take turns guarding Lebron. Even Smart as well. They could go small, and they could go shoot. Missed opportunity for Boston.
it up. It's not like this is a 7-10 seed. Yea, they are very unlikely to win a title, but winning 55-60 games a year, winning a playoff series most years, taking a crack at the top teams in the league, playing with sold out arena, stuff like that isn't worthless.
If they blow it up and the rebuild doesn't work, it could be over a decade or more before they ever get back to winning 55-60 games again.
They should at least run it back for another year or two.
it up. It's not like this is a 7-10 seed. Yea, they are very unlikely to win a title, but winning 55-60 games a year, winning a playoff series most years, taking a crack at the top teams in the league, playing with sold out arena, stuff like that isn't worthless.
If they blow it up and the rebuild doesn't work, it could be over a decade or more before they ever get back to winning 55-60 games again.
They should at least run it back for another year or two.
If the goal is to make money - then sure.
If the goal is to win titles - then they need to blow it up ASAP.
They arent beating Cleveland. Philly and Boston are going to be really, really, really good in the upcoming year. Toronto is getting old. They have as much of a chance of winning the title than the Knicks do in the next 3 years. Maybe even less of a shot.
the baseline ref on the Embiid lay up needs to be suspended for the rest of the playoffs and not allowed to do them next year. That was a flat out epic choke the whistle I ever saw. Embiid was MURDERED on that play. It decided the outcome of the game. If Harden can go to the line 100 times when he forces contact. A guy who slaps down on the guys arm as he is going up for a layup needs to be called.
Officials in the NBA have more say in who wins sometimes than the players do. What an epic disaster that call was and shame on the NBA for not doing a thing about it. Brown and Embiid should bitch their asses off in the press conference because that was a joke.
Philly has been playing with no calls the whole series Â
And every 50-50 ball not in the 2 minutes seems like it was going in Boston’s favor at TD. Doesn’t take anything away from Stevens, Rozier and Tatum but aside from 1 game phillys been right there in it 4 out of the 5 games in the series.
to get Kawhi but Philly needs to put everything not named Simmons and Embiid on the table. Even better than getting Lebron IMO, keeps the window open longer and can thrive off the ball. They need a closer on both ends.
RE: Philly has been playing with no calls the whole series Â
And every 50-50 ball not in the 2 minutes seems like it was going in Boston’s favor at TD. Doesn’t take anything away from Stevens, Rozier and Tatum but aside from 1 game phillys been right there in it 4 out of the 5 games in the series.
Really? Three of the Celtics starters had 3 fouls before midway thru the second quarter in game 4 and without actually doing much fouling. Tatum is especially ignored everything one he gets hacked driving to the basket. Okay, he’s a rookie but they really do not seem to like him much. At one point in t hi I game 4 was called with the idea that with all the sweeps too much revenue was being left on the table but when you look at that specific crew, you don’t really need a conspiracy theory to explain it.
Boston was the better team in the series. They deserved the win. But Boston winning 4-1. The biggest thing I takeaway from the series is that Embiid isn’t nearly as good with a mask blocking his entire view.
Not reading too much into this, winner was always going to lose to Lebron in 6 or less. Both the Celtics and sixers will look completely different next year, I think it’s the start of a good rivalry.
on the slim chance we were able to get past Philly, we would play Cleveland rather than Toronto in the EC finals. Was that a foolish hope? Lebron is scary but I feel like that's a better matchup for us.
on the slim chance we were able to get past Philly, we would play Cleveland rather than Toronto in the EC finals. Was that a foolish hope? Lebron is scary but I feel like that's a better matchup for us.
Celtics aren't beating Lebron, not with Kyrie/Hayward.
on the slim chance we were able to get past Philly, we would play Cleveland rather than Toronto in the EC finals. Was that a foolish hope? Lebron is scary but I feel like that's a better matchup for us.
Rly?
Ill put it simply for the 100th time this thread. Raptors blow ass monkey chunks.
You guys had a nice run but when Lebron is getting Brown/Tatum in foul trouble in game 1 or 2 so they can steal home court, you are going to wish you played the Raptors who wouldnt get the calls. Hell, even Embiid couldnt get a forearm chop to the arm in the last 10 seconds.
I don't think that they were beating Toronto either Â
I was more thinking of which team they might be beaten less by
I think Boston would've beat Toronto, maybe in 5 or 6. They struggled against the 8 seed and got swept by the 4th seed. They match up beautifully, put Brown on Derozan and Smart on Lowry.
but why is it every year, when Lebron beats teams that wouldnt make the playoffs in the other conference..... they have to bring up.... is he better than Jordan? Christ, its so god damn annoying.
He plays in an era that ball dominant individuals will dominate statistics. He is always going to get his stats. He is always going to play well. But at the end of the championship series, here's whats going to happen.
1. He wins the title, he is better than Jordan.
2. He loses the title, well he didnt have enough help, it shouldnt affect his standing with Jordan, and he will look to join the 76ers or some other team that can get him a title immediately.
but why does it seem like Lebron haters are the ones that bring up Lebron v MJ? As a guy who enjoys watching Lebron play, I enjoy doing just that: watching him play. There will be a time when it's all said and done and the argument can be had. But it seems like every Finals appearance actually detracts from Lebron's legacy, even if the East is trash. And it seems most MJ supporters are in agreement that Lebron is within 1 or 2 all time of MJ, and it seems like consensus that Lebron has to win a few more to solidify #1. What's more to argue right now?
And I don't even have time for Kobe v Lebron guys.
read any news source and Mj vs. Lebron is always brought up. Especially after beating average teams in the playoffs. Just one of many "debates" - ( New Window )
Lebron/the Cavs beat teams that wouldn't be in the playoffs in the West? When you start a sentence like that it becomes painfully obvious what your agenda is.
Are there many, many things about Lebron and the coverage of him that can be nauseating? Yes. You also don't have to take the Skip Bayless approach in order to make your point
read any news source and Mj vs. Lebron is always brought up. Especially after beating average teams in the playoffs. Just one of many "debates" - ( New Window )
Honestly what do people get out of watching/reading sports news and fan articles? I have respect for guys that dig into X's and O's (Zach Lowe, most of his guests) but paying attention to ESPN talking heads, I don't see how that provides any value.
Dep I can tell you don't enjoy it either lol. Dont do it! ESPN is dying a slow, painful death, take them out of its misery!
read any news source and Mj vs. Lebron is always brought up. Especially after beating average teams in the playoffs. Just one of many "debates" - ( New Window )
Honestly what do people get out of watching/reading sports news and fan articles? I have respect for guys that dig into X's and O's (Zach Lowe, most of his guests) but paying attention to ESPN talking heads, I don't see how that provides any value.
Dep I can tell you don't enjoy it either lol. Dont do it! ESPN is dying a slow, painful death, take them out of its misery!
I go to websites for 538 articles and scores/highlights. It was the main piece on the page. I just find them all the time. I mean if they beat a team out west - ok, then you can have an argument. But they just beat the Raptors. lol
Lebron/the Cavs beat teams that wouldn't be in the playoffs in the West? When you start a sentence like that it becomes painfully obvious what your agenda is.
Are there many, many things about Lebron and the coverage of him that can be nauseating? Yes. You also don't have to take the Skip Bayless approach in order to make your point
Ok, maybe the raptors make the playoffs. But the 8th seed were the TWolves and the 7th seed were the Spurs.
To say Toronto is definitely better than those 2 teams is absurd. I would take both those teams over Toronto.
Lebron/the Cavs beat teams that wouldn't be in the playoffs in the West? When you start a sentence like that it becomes painfully obvious what your agenda is.
Are there many, many things about Lebron and the coverage of him that can be nauseating? Yes. You also don't have to take the Skip Bayless approach in order to make your point
Ok, maybe the raptors make the playoffs. But the 8th seed were the TWolves and the 7th seed were the Spurs.
To say Toronto is definitely better than those 2 teams is absurd. I would take both those teams over Toronto.
Spurs were complete garbage without Kawhi. They ended the season horrendously.
Derozan vs LMA? Lowry vs Dejonte Murray? JV vs Kyle Anderson?
I agree that the Raptors would lose to probably every other western conference team but I cant think of how the Spurs wouldve topped many EC teams. I think they wouldve lost to Washington. Theyd beat Miami and maybe Milwaukee?
but thats probably it. Everyone knew they were a farce as a 1 seed. Well you and I did, and we are basketball savants.
The point is I dont want to talk about Lebron James status as an all time player based on these series. He dominated and crushed them. He will do the same to Boston (albeit not as dominate because the Celtics are a better team with a better coach).
He is going to face a juggernaut in the finals barring injuries. His supporting cast was VERY good against Toronto. He is going to put up amazing stats.
But when push comes to shove. Are the fadeaways, pull up 3s, and drives to the basket going to result in wins or losses.
Why go to the West where he'll have to grind through the season to even have a chance at a top 4 seed (assuming PG joins him in LA) and then have to battle through 3 rounds of playoffs just to make it to the finals? Especially when the alternative is coasting through the regular season to a top 4 seed, getting an easy 1st round matchup and at most 2 challenging series, IF Philly can take the next step and the C's can stay healthy and you get an unfortunate draw and have to face both.
Though in typical LeBron fashion, he'll probably just join Phi and keep it a 2 team race in the east.
Toronto has always outperformed talent level. maybe some specific coaching in the playoffs led to his fall. Lowry and Derozan were basically backup quality for their first few years in the league. Derozan transformed drastically, but I'd still argue that Toronto doesn't have a top 20 player on their roster and has been a top seed in the East the past few years. Obviously talent gets exposed in the playoffs.
Toronto has always outperformed talent level. maybe some specific coaching in the playoffs led to his fall. Lowry and Derozan were basically backup quality for their first few years in the league. Derozan transformed drastically, but I'd still argue that Toronto doesn't have a top 20 player on their roster and has been a top seed in the East the past few years. Obviously talent gets exposed in the playoffs.
Moves like subbing in Nogueira at the end of the first half of game four instead of JV who was having a solid night, boneheaded defensive miscues in game one when the raptors had two extra days to rest and prepare and home court against a gassed Cavs squad, havingCJ miles defend Love, the lack of a sensible defensive plan on Lebronto’s winning shot in game 3, failing to inbound the ball after a full timeout....there were a lot of questionable moves by Casey throughout the playoffs. And it’s not just in this playoffs. The team was swept by the Wizards in2014, upset by the nets in 2013 and barely escaped an upset of the pacers in 2016. Casey is a great guy and gets his team to play hard night in and night out, but he’s the Andy Reid/Marvin Lewis of the NBA
Toronto has always outperformed talent level. maybe some specific coaching in the playoffs led to his fall. Lowry and Derozan were basically backup quality for their first few years in the league. Derozan transformed drastically, but I'd still argue that Toronto doesn't have a top 20 player on their roster and has been a top seed in the East the past few years. Obviously talent gets exposed in the playoffs.
Moves like subbing in Nogueira at the end of the first half of game four instead of JV who was having a solid night, boneheaded defensive miscues in game one when the raptors had two extra days to rest and prepare and home court against a gassed Cavs squad, havingCJ miles defend Love, the lack of a sensible defensive plan on Lebronto’s winning shot in game 3, failing to inbound the ball after a full timeout....there were a lot of questionable moves by Casey throughout the playoffs. And it’s not just in this playoffs. The team was swept by the Wizards in2014, upset by the nets in 2013 and barely escaped an upset of the pacers in 2016. Casey is a great guy and gets his team to play hard night in and night out, but he’s the Andy Reid/Marvin Lewis of the NBA
IMO Washington is more talented (and at least similarly talented) but the levels of success achieved by both Toronto and Washington have been different the last few years.
Isn't the '14 team the year Rudy Gay got traded? Yeah, that team had no business sniffing the playoffs. Toronto's now on the least desirable path possible and firing Casey doesn't solve it (not saying that keeping him would've, but Toronto has a talent - not a coaching- issue).
It’s certainly not all Casey’s fault, and he got the team to buy into a different style this year that reaped the #1 overall seed. However some of the deployment of talent, schemes and tactics in the playoffs deserve criticism. The Cavs were expecting a long series and several of the raptors players said the issues were mental.
on Derozan as your leading scorer and expect to go far. He's ideally a third option, but he's not even a good enough 3 point shooter to thrive off ball. It's just easy to gameplan defensively. Add best, Ibaka and JV are average relative to their positions. The Raptors were relying on a rookie to defend Lebron. Despite Casey's flaws, Toronto should have never been here this far and have one player they can probably get fair market value in return for (Derozan).
Celtics continue to get by on coaching, match-up defense and smart scoring.
If you add Hayward and Irving to this line-up, this is a legit contender.
Two teams passed on Tatum. Wow.
IMO they’d be easy favorite last with those two. What they are doing without them is incredible, even being in the ECF last year. Just a well coached team like you said. They won by 25 with Rozier scoring 8. I mean wow.
but I'm praying for a Celtics/Rockets NBA Finals. Their regular season matchups were great, there's a little bad blood there and who gives a shit about Lebron vs Curry & the all-star friends anymore.
but I'm praying for a Celtics/Rockets NBA Finals. Their regular season matchups were great, there's a little bad blood there and who gives a shit about Lebron vs Curry & the all-star friends anymore.
Probably the only matchup that I’d watch. Really not interested in golden State or Cleveland. What Boston is doing without their 2 best players is pretty unprecedented. I hate Boston but I have to tip my cap and would probably pull for them if they make the finals.
but I'm praying for a Celtics/Rockets NBA Finals. Their regular season matchups were great, there's a little bad blood there and who gives a shit about Lebron vs Curry & the all-star friends anymore.
Probably the only matchup that I’d watch. Really not interested in golden State or Cleveland. What Boston is doing without their 2 best players is pretty unprecedented. I hate Boston but I have to tip my cap and would probably pull for them if they make the finals.
Exactly but you know it’s not what the NBA wants. The casual fan probably couldn’t name one player on the Celtics. I don’t see the Celts or Cavs beating either the Warriors or Rockets though. But I think Boston on this run would have the best chance.
GS is a much, much easier team to root for than Houston. Rooting for Harden and Paul is the hardest thing for me to do in sports. Hopefully Kerr uses whoever harden guards in screens for Durant. Durant can go for 40 a game is Harden guards him.
In the East.... Boston's length all over the place will give Cavs fits, but I expect Lebron to bounce back. Winning game 1 was huge for Boston.
on any other team. I could average 12 assists a game passing to the likes of Curry, Thompson and Durant. And I could average 12 pts a game when I'm like the 4th option with nobody accounting for me.
I have seen 20 worse ones set this game. Refs have it out for Green. But a game with Brothers and Foster reffing, would we expect a high level officiated game?
Golden State doesn't get calls their way all the time? The home team usually gets a few more questionable calls.
The only two shot foul GS got was a foul 70 feet away from the basket when Tucker intentionally fouled Klay.
The calls have NOWHERE been even this game. And Ariza is their 4th best player. When Paul gets 5 fouls in the 3rd, you may have a point. I would say Harden too, but he doesnt even try defensively.
they let Harden get his but the role players were shut down. Harden spent almost every possession dribbling while everyone else stood and watched. Harden made a lot of great shots but Houston never got into a rhythm.
GS did what they had to do. Must win for Houston in game 2.
that there is absolutely zero suspense to who is going to win the title. And unless LeBron goes to Philly and they gel, it will be like that for another 3 years minimum.
Anyone who thinks its good for the sport is brain dead. It's not Kevin Durants job to do whats good for the sport, but as a fan there is zero reason to watch.
It's a worthless product as far as suspense goes. And while the skill level may be as high as its ever been, I watch sports for the potential suspense involved. The NBA has zero and it's not changing anytime soon. The NBA went from having a worthless regular season for a long time to now the entire season playoffs included is worthless, we already can guarantee who is goign to win unless someone gets hurt.
1. Harden scored 41 and made a lot of great shots. However, without watching the game again, I bet he was responsible for nearly or over 50 points given up. By far and away the worst defender in the league. He doesnt even try. He goes for reaches and if he gets the steal, it looks good. But he is consistently relying on Capela to bail him out. I dont care what anyone says, when you are that BAD at defending, you arent a top 10 player in the league. He was a net negative last night and until he decides he wants to defend, Houston will never win anything.
2. Houston ran 2 plays last night. ISO and high screen and role. You arent going to beat GS that way. GS let Curry and Looney on islands all night which meant the role players never saw the ball. There had to be over 50% of their possessions where no one but Paul and Harden touched the ball.
3. Durant is challenging Jordan to be the best pure scorer or all time. He makes it look to easy.
4. Warriors arent going away and everyone who has a gripe with the same winner every year. Blame the top players in the league. Lebron, CP3, Wade, etc were the ones who pushed the owners to get the contract demands that they want. A salary cap in the NBA is an utter joke. Salary cap was suppose to be a shade over 99 million this year. 19 teams exceeded that. And dont give me this luxury cap nonsense. No team truly cares about it that is good.
5. One rule that needs to be instituted immediately. 5 second call with the ball - dribbling or not - outside the 3 point line. Watching Harden, Lebron, Westbrook, Wall, etc hold the ball for 15 seconds and dribbling it going nowhere sucks ass.
I was hoping Houston-GS would go 7, but it appears Â
They’ve done it all year, when these Boston teams get going everything seems to fall their way. So annoying lol. I actually can’t even bring myself to dislike this Celtics team, just a bunch of young kids playing well and well coached.
This just feels like they'll split in Cleveland & the Celts end this in 5 with LBJ becoming completely disengaged midway through Game 5 when he realizes the team around him sucks.
This just feels like they'll split in Cleveland & the Celts end this in 5 with LBJ becoming completely disengaged midway through Game 5 when he realizes the team around him sucks.
Let the philly rumors begin now then. when Lebron cant win, its time to blame everyone else and jump ship.
Rooting for another LeBron heel turn on Cleveland Â
For all the complaining about the NBA being over and the Warriors winning forever, the Celtics with Irving and Hayward are contenders.
I said this two-months ago and was laughed off the thread (I think the comments were mostly like "sure they could contend to not get swept"). Still GS would be significant favorites but with the C's at full strength I think it could be interesting.
I'd like to even see it as a preview this year in case in the rarest of circumstances Kyrie can stay healthy for a full season next year it would be a contest.
I'd also like to see what Stevens can come up with in a series vs GS.
For all the complaining about the NBA being over and the Warriors winning forever, the Celtics with Irving and Hayward are contenders.
I said this two-months ago and was laughed off the thread (I think the comments were mostly like "sure they could contend to not get swept"). Still GS would be significant favorites but with the C's at full strength I think it could be interesting.
I'd like to even see it as a preview this year in case in the rarest of circumstances Kyrie can stay healthy for a full season next year it would be a contest.
I'd also like to see what Stevens can come up with in a series vs GS.
Rozier and Brown for Leonard. Who says no?
Irving
Tatum
Heyward
Leonard
Horford
Smart, Morris, Baynes, and the rookie from SMU off the bench. Not a bad combo.
For all the complaining about the NBA being over and the Warriors winning forever, the Celtics with Irving and Hayward are contenders.
I said this two-months ago and was laughed off the thread (I think the comments were mostly like "sure they could contend to not get swept"). Still GS would be significant favorites but with the C's at full strength I think it could be interesting.
I'd like to even see it as a preview this year in case in the rarest of circumstances Kyrie can stay healthy for a full season next year it would be a contest.
I'd also like to see what Stevens can come up with in a series vs GS.
Rozier and Brown for Leonard. Who says no?
Irving
Tatum
Heyward
Leonard
Horford
Smart, Morris, Baynes, and the rookie from SMU off the bench. Not a bad combo.
and Stevens might come up with a few interesting wrinkles on defense for GS. Could definitely see Smart and Morris mixing it up with Draymond too. It'd at least be entertaining.
Cleveland would be no contest. They'd probably give up 140 points with the wide open looks they allow. And Lebron is starting to get that look like he's knows this group has no chance.
If they can get him to stay, they've got to trade that lottery pick for something established. Maybe package it with Love. This roster is absolutely broken.
was how everyone in the media and a few here slobbered over the Cavs acquisitions. I kept hearing how perfect they were for Lebron, etc.
Clarkson - DNP
Nance - scoreless in 4 of the last 5 games
Hood - terrible player, refused to go in garbage time
Hill - useless player, huge disappointment.
They were better off keeping Rose and Crowder. It would have them given a shooter and defender in Crowder and a scorer off the bench in Rose.
But much like a lot of other players in Lebrons career, players careers die when they play with Lebron.
by getting the best out of guys on rookie deals. I think he lets Smart walk if he gets a big offer sheet. He's going to milk Brown and Tatum as long as possible. Combined they will be making 20% of what Kawhi will get on his next contract. Doesn't seem like a Danny Ainge play to me.
is something that just cant happen as a professional team. If you dont have anything right away, call timeout. There was no urgency whatsoever. Timeout had to be called as soon as Durant went east to west rather than north to south.
Dont see it now. harden was pathetic in the 2nd half. He wont be that bad again. Klay has been awful all series. And if Iggy isnt right, the 5th player will be costly for them.
Thought for sure this would be 3-1 after tonight. Â
For the crowd who thinks the NBA is over and ruined, isn't it exciting how these 2 series are shaping up? In the West you have 2 heavy weights trading big blows. In the East you have a jump start team missing it's 2 best players a game a way from the Finals.
You have a rookie in Tatum becoming a super star in front of our eyes. We're seeing a little dent in the facade of the dymastic Warriors, and maybe a little age showing in the world's best player in Cleveland.
Of course the Warriors might sweep Cleveland in the Finals. I wouldn't be shocked. But the Celts and Rockets are making this really fun.
For the crowd who thinks the NBA is over and ruined, isn't it exciting how these 2 series are shaping up? In the West you have 2 heavy weights trading big blows. In the East you have a jump start team missing it's 2 best players a game a way from the Finals.
You have a rookie in Tatum becoming a super star in front of our eyes. We're seeing a little dent in the facade of the dymastic Warriors, and maybe a little age showing in the world's best player in Cleveland.
Of course the Warriors might sweep Cleveland in the Finals. I wouldn't be shocked. But the Celts and Rockets are making this really fun.
The problem is outside game 4 of GS-Houston - the games have not been competitive. If the gaems were close and back and forth, more people would be excited by it.
Definitely a little more interesting than I thought. Â
We'll see what the Rockets bring to the table tonight - hopefully they get the W and force Golden State to win two straight elimination games. That alone is more drama than I thought there would be this season.
but I'd be OK with D'Antoni getting a ring. He's largely responsible for the way the NBA game is played these days, and doesn't really get any credit for it. His Phoenix team got screwed that one year with the Horry/Nash incident and BS suspensions, too.
is like rooting for the cowboys. Bunch of hateable players.
You can speak for yourself. I don't like the warriors players anymore or less and I hate dynasties (that aren't the teams I root for) even more.
I always knew you were a closet cowboys fan. haha
And you're a Jordan-Bulls fan, somehow a NY Giants fan and have created an "acceptable" scenario for yourself to root for the greatest basketball team of all time. You're a knowledgeable basketball fan for sure but you know how to cover your bases pretty well.
And you're a Jordan-Bulls fan, somehow a NY Giants fan and have created an "acceptable" scenario for yourself to root for the greatest basketball team of all time. You're a knowledgeable basketball fan for sure but you know how to cover your bases pretty well.
Only reason I am rooting for GS is my hatred for Harden and Paul. If they were playing anyone else, Id probably root for the other team. I am really hoping for Boston to win it all.
People may hate golden state and thats their right as a fan - but nobody plays the game better than them. Truth be told, they were more fun without Durant because there was less ISO ball. The reaosn they lost the other night is because they went too much ISO with KD and eh had a really bad game.
And you're a Jordan-Bulls fan, somehow a NY Giants fan and have created an "acceptable" scenario for yourself to root for the greatest basketball team of all time. You're a knowledgeable basketball fan for sure but you know how to cover your bases pretty well.
Only reason I am rooting for GS is my hatred for Harden and Paul. If they were playing anyone else, Id probably root for the other team. I am really hoping for Boston to win it all.
People may hate golden state and thats their right as a fan - but nobody plays the game better than them. Truth be told, they were more fun without Durant because there was less ISO ball. The reaosn they lost the other night is because they went too much ISO with KD and eh had a really bad game.
I'd root for any team to top GS. Boston, LAL, Houston. Idc. I know the Knicks aren't going to be catching up in title wins anytime soon but just hate seeing any team consistently rack up rings. And that's with full respect to GS. I can't root for KD but I wouldnt pick any other player to start a team with. Steph and Klay are eh to me, respect them as players. Draymond is an asshole but he'll always get more flack then he deserves. Him taking a leap is what got GS to this point and I don't think he'd be any less affective on any other team. He's a top 3-4 PF right now in the league.
I hate Harden's style of play (though it has improved), but it's hard not to appreciate his mastery of footwork and ability to read and react to what a defender is doing. His ability to exploit a defender's positioning is perhaps the best I have ever seen, right up there with Kyrie (whose approach is more of using timing and dribbling to elude defenders).
I think Chris Paul is a dick and I loathe his history of hitting guys in the groin. But I've always thought he was one of the most underrated players in NBA history due to a lack of postseason success. I think he plays the point guard position perfectly. He is an incredible floor general, makes smart passes, can score very well but always put that secondary to facilitating for his teammates, and is a bulldog on defense.
I also like and dislike the Warriors. I think they are the best and deepest constructed NBA team I have ever seen. Curry and Durant are freaks on offense, Thompson is one of the best shooters I've ever seen and a very good defender. Durant makes big defensive plays, Green and Iguodala are elite defensively, and Livingston is such a mis-match on offense in the mid-range which is perfect for a back-up.
I hate Harden's style of play (though it has improved), but it's hard not to appreciate his mastery of footwork and ability to read and react to what a defender is doing. His ability to exploit a defender's positioning is perhaps the best I have ever seen, right up there with Kyrie (whose approach is more of using timing and dribbling to elude defenders).
I think Chris Paul is a dick and I loathe his history of hitting guys in the groin. But I've always thought he was one of the most underrated players in NBA history due to a lack of postseason success. I think he plays the point guard position perfectly. He is an incredible floor general, makes smart passes, can score very well but always put that secondary to facilitating for his teammates, and is a bulldog on defense.
I also like and dislike the Warriors. I think they are the best and deepest constructed NBA team I have ever seen. Curry and Durant are freaks on offense, Thompson is one of the best shooters I've ever seen and a very good defender. Durant makes big defensive plays, Green and Iguodala are elite defensively, and Livingston is such a mis-match on offense in the mid-range which is perfect for a back-up.
I hope it goes 7.
CP3 has always been the biggest baby in NBA history too. I was floored when he told Durant to stop crying the other night.
CP3 has always been the biggest baby in NBA history too. I was floored when he told Durant to stop crying the other night.
This biggest baby in NBA History huh? I'm pretty sure CP3 has never asked out of a game because the final play wasn't called for him.
Good example. But I am sure Pippen didnt throw his hands up and run to the official every time a foul was called on him. And I am sure Pippen didnt go out of his way to rip a female ref to shreds after a game to the press because he disagreed with a call either and saying the game might not be for her either.
Chris Paul is a cry baby bitch. Always has been, always will be. One of the few "stars" in this league who wasnt good enough to win on his own and had to change things how the league was run so he could team up with some buddies or better players.
Chris Paul is a cry baby bitch. Always has been, always will be. One of the few "stars" in this league who wasnt good enough to win on his own and had to change things how the league was run so he could team up with some buddies or better players. [/quote]
You mean like LeBron? Or Durant? It's pretty commonplace now for stars to try and team up and make things easier on themselves.
Chris Paul is a cry baby bitch. Always has been, always will be. One of the few "stars" in this league who wasnt good enough to win on his own and had to change things how the league was run so he could team up with some buddies or better players.
You mean like LeBron? Or Durant? It's pretty commonplace now for stars to try and team up and make things easier on themselves. [/quote]
Paul and Lebron were the ones who set up the negotiations for it to happen. Durant did sign with them - but he didnt do the behind the scenes work.
Jordan was able to win on his own was when he played for the Toon Squad. Other than that, he needed at least Scottie Pippen, and often times a lot more.
The whole "teaming up" complaint is nonsense. Some all-time greats were blessed to play for teams whose GMs were able to give them great stars to team up with, some all-time greats did not and either came up short, or used their autonomy to team up with stars on their own.
Jordan was able to win on his own was when he played for the Toon Squad. Other than that, he needed at least Scottie Pippen, and often times a lot more.
The whole "teaming up" complaint is nonsense. Some all-time greats were blessed to play for teams whose GMs were able to give them great stars to team up with, some all-time greats did not and either came up short, or used their autonomy to team up with stars on their own.
Sorry Paul
Comparing Jordans success to what Lebron did is crazy. Jordan never had to leave a team to win a title. Yes, having Pippen was great and he needed him. but what Paul and Lebron have done has changed the whole aspect of contracts in the NBA and it has ruined the league. You have 19 teams over the salary cap. Its much much easier to join whoever you want. Its even easier to get rtaded to the team you want as well.
Lebron is a top 3 player of all time, but its not even debatble that he runs away when he cant win. One more loss against Boston and he will do it again.
Jordan was gifted an all-time great player, and all-time great coach, and other all stars, including the best rebounder and elite defender, another very good perimeter defender, and the most accurate 3-point shooter in NBA history in his second three-peat.
We don't know what Jordan would have done if his franchise didn't give him an incredible wealth of talent surrounding him. He was also never constantly measured up to a singular player purely by number of championships.
But if Jordan played in today's era for a dog-shit franchise where would only be measured based on whether he won enough rings to match a player before him, then his choices would have been to either would have joined a team that had the proper supporting cast, or he would have toiled away to earn personal accolades without the team hardware.
about the ease for superstars to move and join forces is a double-edged sword.
If it were harder to do that during Jordan's era and the era of stars before him, then it stands to reason that the divide between the haves and have-nots was harder to erase and so already-established dominant situations were easier to maintain (the Bulls outside of Jordan).
how old was LeBron when Karl Malone and Gary Payton took pay cuts to join forces with Shaq and Kobe? How old was he when Clyde went to Houston? Or Rodman to Chicago? What team did LeBron play for when Boston arranged to bring Garnett and Ray Allen to Boston in the same off-season?
Blaming LeBron for players having the freedom to improve their own playing situation misses the mark, especially when it preceded him.
Jordan was gifted an all-time great player, and all-time great coach, and other all stars, including the best rebounder and elite defender, another very good perimeter defender, and the most accurate 3-point shooter in NBA history in his second three-peat.
We don't know what Jordan would have done if his franchise didn't give him an incredible wealth of talent surrounding him. He was also never constantly measured up to a singular player purely by number of championships.
But if Jordan played in today's era for a dog-shit franchise where would only be measured based on whether he won enough rings to match a player before him, then his choices would have been to either would have joined a team that had the proper supporting cast, or he would have toiled away to earn personal accolades without the team hardware.
You are forgetting that the rosters that have "hampered" James were the players he basically hand picked. he wanted Love to come to cleveland. He wanted them to re-sign smith and thompson to terrible contracts. He wanted Jamison/Shaq at the end of his cleveland first run. He has basically pushed players out for other players via of trade.
It took Jordan to year 7 to get a ring. It took Pippen/grant to year 4 so the notion that he won as soon as he got them is false. It took years for them to get a ring together. And are we claiming that Phil was a guaranteed success coach when hired? The Bulls took a chance on him and it worked. There was a lot of risk hiring him. Just much there was a huge risk GS did by hiring Kerr.
And lets not act like Lebron never played with great player. The difference is Lebron picked who he wanted to play with. Whereas Jordan played with guys who were picked by the team. Who was the greatest FA the Bulls signed during the Jordan era?
about the ease for superstars to move and join forces is a double-edged sword.
If it were harder to do that during Jordan's era and the era of stars before him, then it stands to reason that the divide between the haves and have-nots was harder to erase and so already-established dominant situations were easier to maintain (the Bulls outside of Jordan).
When you look at hte dynasties - lakers, celtics, pistons to an extent - most of their players were drafted by the team. Kareem is the exception as he was traded.
Now, players are traded away to the teams that they want to go to. Because the players have the teams by the throat.
how old was LeBron when Karl Malone and Gary Payton took pay cuts to join forces with Shaq and Kobe? How old was he when Clyde went to Houston? Or Rodman to Chicago? What team did LeBron play for when Boston arranged to bring Garnett and Ray Allen to Boston in the same off-season?
Blaming LeBron for players having the freedom to improve their own playing situation misses the mark, especially when it preceded him.
All the players you mentioned were near or on their last legs.
Malone was 40 years old
Payton was 35
Allen was 32
Drexler was 33 and played 2 more years
Again who was the big FA that Bulls signed during Jordans career?
speak to the same issue of finding a distinction without a difference. What does it matter whether a player's supporting cast was initiated by him, or whether it was created for him by his organization? The end result is that the player in question still has that surrounding talent and resources to win.
If players had the capacity to move around and control where they played as it is the case now, then perhaps those Bulls teams don't win six rings as other stars around the league team up. Perhaps David Robinson teams up with Stockton and Malone. Maybe Reggie joins Shaq and Penny, etc.
If players had the capacity to move around and control where they played as it is the case now, then perhaps those Bulls teams don't win six rings as other stars around the league team up. Perhaps David Robinson teams up with Stockton and Malone. Maybe Reggie joins Shaq and Penny, etc.
But thats the thing - it SHOULDNT happen. The ideas that players should control where they go is great for them - bad for the league. Yeah - superteams have dominated I get that. I mean these playoffs havent been good whatsoever.
There has to be a better solution than what is going on. Cause if Lebron loses 1 more game, he is going to bolt again to create an even bigger superteam.
is that LeBron (the GM) deserves blame for overpaying for certain players (e.g Thompson) or pursuing others (Love, Irving trade, etc). When you have a (large) hand in assembling the team around you, you deserve criticism (IMO) for bailing ship when faced with adversity.
between bolting via FA (LeBron/KD) and forcing a trade (Melo/PG) and claiming you'll only play for teams A, B, and C so that the team dealing you gets pennies to the dollar.
but why isn't it good? I'm not saying the current era is without flaws, mind you. But why is the league better if the small number of elite teams are due to what front offices do in eras of restricted player movement as opposed to if the elite teams are due to what the players are doing in unrestricted environments?
Why is it necessarily bad for the league if LeBron were to bolt and go to a completely different team, re-energize that fan base, and allow general fans to see how LeBron is able to play and interact with a completely different cast of characters? Doesn't that create intrigue, mystery, a different narrative, and perhaps a chance to see an all-time great perform in a different capacity?
but if Paul is compromised, they probably lose in seven. At least Golden Stars has to win two elimination games - didn't think they'd have to win any this postseason.
with less than a minute and a chance to take a lead.
1. Fadewaway 20 footer at the buzz with two defenders on shooter.
2. Quinn Cook shooting the ball.
3. A 15 foot runner by Curry.
4. A pass to draymond green with 2 seconds near the 3 point line.
but watching the rockets run an NBA offense should put changes to the NBA. They run ONE fucking play.
Find the weakest defender. High screen, get the switch and go ISO.
Its terrible basketball, not enjoyable to watch. Whats funny is GS is running more ISO than ever with Durant, and their offense has sucked for a few games now too.
Things were becoming far too predictable. They treated the regular season like a joke. Now they may lost because they don’t have home court advantage. It’d be fitting
play a different brand of D that the league has frowned upon for the last five years - very physical with a lot of hand checking, subtle and not so subtle. And it’s thrown the Warriors offense into a tailspin, especially late in games when the refs allow even more physicality.
When these two teams aren’t scoring at least 110 a piece against each other, something is off...
from a Celtics/Rockets NBA Finals. Please, baby Jesus, let it happen. No more Lebron, no more all-star team Warriors. Give us something new and different.
You can expect a full court press to sign LeBron. This group of lovable underdogs could use another superstar. Poor guys looked exhausted out there at the end. LeBron could provide them a bit of depth...
You can expect a full court press to sign LeBron. This group of lovable underdogs could use another superstar. Poor guys looked exhausted out there at the end. LeBron could provide them a bit of depth...
Haha, wouldn't shock me at all if LeBron tries to join them!
You can expect a full court press to sign LeBron. This group of lovable underdogs could use another superstar. Poor guys looked exhausted out there at the end. LeBron could provide them a bit of depth...
If Iggy was healthy, the series would be over. They are also missing a big piece in McCaw. They have 6 centers on the roster who are essentially useless in todays game. I do expect GS to get some different guys and soon.
But wouldnt it be a hoot if Lebron signed with Houston so we can see 3 of the 5 most ball dominant players go 1 on 1 all game? yay!!!
play a different brand of D that the league has frowned upon for the last five years - very physical with a lot of hand checking, subtle and not so subtle. And it’s thrown the Warriors offense into a tailspin, especially late in games when the refs allow even more physicality.
When these two teams aren’t scoring at least 110 a piece against each other, something is off...
Letting them get more rough is the only way to stop blowouts. Fans love offense, but fans don't love games over with 20 minutes left.
That 4th quarter last night is *everything* the NBA wants.
coaching decisions have been questionable at best of late.
They havent been questionable - they have been horrendous. He has it had pretty easy the last 3 years, pressure is on now for him to make better decisions.
coaching decisions have been questionable at best of late.
They havent been questionable - they have been horrendous. He has it had pretty easy the last 3 years, pressure is on now for him to make better decisions.
Dep, Haha. I was trying to be kind in my description, but you're right.
To rip apart a coach when the players who don't typically start get unusual playing time on account of a player who'd otherwise get it being injured. Do you honestly think the outcome of game 5 had a chance of being different if Livingston was in there instead of Cook?
But let's not forget that the Warriors have what's by all accounts a unique and admirable culture, something everyone who plays for them notes and admires, and something that will help them lure players or retain their own, and that didn't just happen.
To rip apart a coach when the players who don't typically start get unusual playing time on account of a player who'd otherwise get it being injured. Do you honestly think the outcome of game 5 had a chance of being different if Livingston was in there instead of Cook?
But let's not forget that the Warriors have what's by all accounts a unique and admirable culture, something everyone who plays for them notes and admires, and something that will help them lure players or retain their own, and that didn't just happen.
Excuse me I said this would be over if Iggy played. The loss of Iggy and mccaw are massive in this series.
However cook shouldn’t have been in. Hell nick young is more proven. But Livingston is a main cog and has done it. He doesn’t chuck it up on a 5-4 down 1. With Paul out of the play... they could have gotten any shot they wanted.
At the end of a close game. Generally, only Curry or Thompson fouling out would make that happen. He's really not a great playmaker for a PG (and can be rather turnover prone), and certainly isn't a good shooter.
You're acting like Kerr benched a known crunch time performer for someone who shot well below 30% on the year. Neither is the case.
At the end of a close game. Generally, only Curry or Thompson fouling out would make that happen. He's really not a great playmaker for a PG (and can be rather turnover prone), and certainly isn't a good shooter.
You're acting like Kerr benched a known crunch time performer for someone who shot well below 30% on the year. Neither is the case.
Livingston doesn’t shoot a 3 in that situation. You have 4 eventual hall of gamers on the floor. And Quinn cook shoots it?
Sorry, no dice. Pivotal game in series. He shouldn’t be on the floor.
That made the Warriors what they are though. Quinn Cook shoots close to 50 from the field and around 44 from three when filling in for Curry? Kerr feels comfortable having him on the floor so that if he gets an open shot, he takes it.
That sort of trust stems from the same mentality that allowed Kerr to listen to a young staff member's idea to start Iggy over Bogut in their first finals. Mark Jackson might have fired the guy just for offering the suggestion at all.
Guy is a good 4-5th player on a team. You cant consistently lay eggs like he does in the playoffs and be considered an all-star. Kevin Love would be ripped to shreds and has been for better performances.
Has anyone argued with you? I think everyone agrees lol
You defended him last game. And many posters here have argued that he is worth the contracct and a legit All-Star.
To me? He is on the trading block.
All I said was scoring has never been a main asset to his game. It’s not like he average 30 points a game this year. The offense doesn’t run through him. It didn’t when they first signed him and it doesn’t now. And yes I think he’s overrated and overpaid. But the Celtics don’t.
Game 7 tomorrow night in Boston will be fun. Of course it starts at 8:30 on a long weekend, which makes no freaking sense, but so be it.
It actually does make sense, people don’t have to be awake early the next day.
Eh, I get your point. I just wish it was like a 3:30 game. Game 7 of Warriors Rockets-which is 99.9% likely to happen-is 9:00 PM EST on Memorial Day. That makes no sense.
They were physical on defense in the second half (and got away with it in terms of officiating) and KT caught fire. It's amazing that a team with 4 All-NBA caliber players needs the 5th guy to be good too in order to work, but the Warriors really do.
Oh and Durant needs to get his head out of his ass on Monday. My confidence level in the Warriors for game 7 dropped at least 50% as a result of tonight.
demonstrated once again how valuable Chris Paul is to Houston. Their record with and without him is profound. And in my judgment, eliminates this bullish-t that Harden is the MVP. That is such a joke conjured up by the media, with the chief enabler ESPN, because the guy has a cool beard and gets great opportunities via Dantoni’s system, like all guard have.
If Paul is healthy, and the if refs continue to let Houston get away with the physical brand of defense they’ve gotten away with a home, they should be in great shape to win. But those are interesting “ifs”...
I love it. Off tomorrow & off Tuesday so I'll be locked into both of these.
Counting down the seconds until 8:30.
Love being out is a huge break for the Cs.
to me it benefits the cavs, for at least this game, they play completely different with love out. they can play faster and they play smaller with green at the 4...
RE: Warriors still weren't overly impressive tonight. Â
They were physical on defense in the second half (and got away with it in terms of officiating) and KT caught fire. It's amazing that a team with 4 All-NBA caliber players needs the 5th guy to be good too in order to work, but the Warriors really do.
Zach Lowe nailed it when he said the Warriors don't feel like themselves without Iguodala on the floor. There's some sort of x factor in his presence that everyone acknowledges.
I didn't catch the beginning, but I did tune in to see a LeBron and-one thwarted by a bad offensive call foul, followed by a three pointer the other way. Potential six point swing! I can't remember the last time I've seen James the subject of a bad offensive foul call like that.
I didn't catch the beginning, but I did tune in to see a LeBron and-one thwarted by a bad offensive call foul, followed by a three pointer the other way. Potential six point swing! I can't remember the last time I've seen James the subject of a bad offensive foul call like that.
Thompson got a bad and 1 when he clearly walked. Other than that missed call both ways. No factor in this horrendous shooting.
Brad Stevens keeps Jaylen Brown on the bench for him?
Maybe Mr. Brad aint rewriting how to coach the game. You lose to this Cleveland team twice without Love? LOL.
ESPn did an article on whether you rather a superstar or Stevens???? Sit down Brad, you were a huge part of the problem. I would trade Brad Stevens in a nanosecond for Kyrie Irving.
Terry Rozier was brought in the game for this? lol. Comical coaching.
is just unreal. This team playing to ight is him and 4 scrubs and they may win on Bostons home court in a game 7. I dont care how you g or injured boston is this guy is unfuckingbelievable. The gap between him and Jordan is a hell of a lot smaller than the gap between LeBron and number 3
Brad Stevens keeps Jaylen Brown on the bench for him?
Maybe Mr. Brad aint rewriting how to coach the game. You lose to this Cleveland team twice without Love? LOL.
ESPn did an article on whether you rather a superstar or Stevens???? Sit down Brad, you were a huge part of the problem. I would trade Brad Stevens in a nanosecond for Kyrie Irving.
Terry Rozier was brought in the game for this? lol. Comical coaching.
m
I disagree completely. Stevens is the best coach in the league and it’s not even close. Brown was just as awful tonight. Tatum and Horford were the only ones that played well tonigth. Brad could only get so much out of a bunch of average players and scrubs. To make it to game 7 was remarkable.
Ok 2 shit teams playing each other and the team with the best player wins. Why is this a surprise?
Do you know how many times this Boston team won on the road in the playoffs?
ONCE. They beat a shitty Milwaikee team in 7 games. They beat a Philly team whose two best players are rookie and 2nd year player. And lost 2 close out games against a team without its 2nd best player.
Beating the east doesnt make him GOAT. Beating the west does.
Stevens was the moron who brought him back in the game when it was close. Stevens got outcoached by Ty Lue. Not good.
Bingo. As much credit as Brad Stevens gets, he deserves to be raked over the coals for what he did tonight. WAY TOO OFTEN LeBron was allowed to have the ball in his hands without forcing someone else to make shots. I'd rather lose by 50 with Jeff Green and JR scoring 30 each than let LeBron get as many one on one opportunities as he did.
Horford was non-existent and Rozier/Smart both sucked badly.
I disagree completely. Stevens is the best coach in the league and it’s not even close. Brown was just as awful tonight. Tatum and Horford were the only ones that played well tonigth. Brad could only get so much out of a bunch of average players and scrubs. To make it to game 7 was remarkable.
Getting his ass kicked last year and lsoing to Lebrons worse team in 10 years makes him the best coach in the league? Horford sucked balls again tonight. NON-factor.
People overrate the shit out of people based on them beating worse teams.
back into the defender and ward the defender off with his arm or hook the defender and go around him. And that's when the defender is allowed to play him, which is usually not the case.
NBA will get the tv matchup it wants and it wants LeBron.
Celtics were clearly gassed offensively, and despite the glimpse over a few minutes both Tatum and Brown looked shot at times in the playoffs.
A Hayward and Irving team led team, with Horford, Brown and Tatum is going to be the future in the East.
That said, LeBron James has absolutely done more with less this year, and I he's done that so many times, it almost gets lost.
Greatest of all time or not, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kareem, Wilt, J, none of them got teams to the finals with as bad of a team as James did tonight.
I can't stand anything about him, but he's unreal.
They should have been up 12-15 as poorly as the Cavs played in the first half. Once Cleveland got to halftime down 4 you knew it was only going in one direction, LeBrons
lebron is one of the greatest players of all time, but xan we not short change jordan please...
Jordan played in 3 game 7s in his career. Never in the finals. The teams he had to go through to get to the finals were 10000000x better than the teams Lebron has to beat.
RE: Lebron will be wearing his CP3 jersey tomorrow Â
I disagree completely. Stevens is the best coach in the league and it’s not even close. Brown was just as awful tonight. Tatum and Horford were the only ones that played well tonigth. Brad could only get so much out of a bunch of average players and scrubs. To make it to game 7 was remarkable.
Getting his ass kicked last year and lsoing to Lebrons worse team in 10 years makes him the best coach in the league? Horford sucked balls again tonight. NON-factor.
People overrate the shit out of people based on them beating worse teams.
Do you ever go back and read what you post? Man, you are absolutely grating. This thread alone for the last week is just you shitting your pants constantly. Do you even like basketball? You are insufferable.
terible contract. Older. He couldnt defend anyone in this series. Offensively, he is a non factor. The rumor for him and others for towns is something ainge has to look into.
They should have been up 12-15 as poorly as the Cavs played in the first half. Once Cleveland got to halftime down 4 you knew it was only going in one direction, LeBrons
My dad called me in the middle of the game when the Cavs cut it to three and I said, "they still look like they suck". It's crazy... they cut the lead down without even playing particularly well.
ou post? Man, you are absolutely grating. This thread alone for the last week is just you shitting your pants constantly. Do you even like basketball? You are insufferable.
Bye then? Oh I remmeber the last time you shit your pants was when you were crying Eli was going to trial and the Giants organization would go through the coals.
terible contract. Older. He couldnt defend anyone in this series. Offensively, he is a non factor. The rumor for him and others for towns is something ainge has to look into.
Why would anyone take such a horrible player with a horrible contract? And he must kill dogs too
RE: RE: Lebron will be wearing his CP3 jersey tomorrow Â
because he cant beat GS. He can beat Houston though.
If Paul can’t play, maybe. That Cavs team isn’t good enough to beat Houston at full strength no matter what LeBron does
Houston has no one to guard Lebron. GS can at least rotate 3 guys on him. Plus, GS can score at will on them. I dont know if ISO ball will work against Cleveland.
I guess knocking off the 73-win team from the West Â
didn’t move the needle? He has nothing left to prove against the East, West, Middle, North Pole, South Pole, etc. I don’t even like Lebron, but nobody has ever brought more to the table than him. You want to give MJ a slight edge? Fine, it’s a compliment to both of them. I think he’s the best all around basketball player ever.
I disagree completely. Stevens is the best coach in the league and it’s not even close. Brown was just as awful tonight. Tatum and Horford were the only ones that played well tonigth. Brad could only get so much out of a bunch of average players and scrubs. To make it to game 7 was remarkable.
Getting his ass kicked last year and lsoing to Lebrons worse team in 10 years makes him the best coach in the league? Horford sucked balls again tonight. NON-factor.
People overrate the shit out of people based on them beating worse teams.
Do you ever go back and read what you post? Man, you are absolutely grating. This thread alone for the last week is just you shitting your pants constantly. Do you even like basketball? You are insufferable.
LOL I was wondering too. Pretty sure Horford fucked his wife
didn’t move the needle? He has nothing left to prove against the East, West, Middle, North Pole, South Pole, etc. I don’t even like Lebron, but nobody has ever brought more to the table than him. You want to give MJ a slight edge? Fine, it’s a compliment to both of them. I think he’s the best all around basketball player ever.
i look at it as mj best in his era and lebron best in his era..
because he cant beat GS. He can beat Houston though.
If Paul can’t play, maybe. That Cavs team isn’t good enough to beat Houston at full strength no matter what LeBron does
Houston has no one to guard Lebron. GS can at least rotate 3 guys on him. Plus, GS can score at will on them. I dont know if ISO ball will work against Cleveland.
The rest of Houston’s team is too good on the offensive end for the Cavs. Houston at full strength is going toe to toe with the warriors because they have enough perimeter scoring and that maligned defense held the warriors under 100 a couple of times in wins. Cleveland would win a maximum of 2 with LeBron, a banged up Love, and role players against the rockets
The rest of Houston’s team is too good on the offensive end for the Cavs. Houston at full strength is going toe to toe with the warriors because they have enough perimeter scoring and that maligned defense held the warriors under 100 a couple of times in wins. Cleveland would win a maximum of 2 with LeBron, a banged up Love, and role players against the rockets
Have to wait and see. But I think Lebron has a really good chance beating Houston.
This is always my favorite argument. Is it better to lose before the finals or in the finals?
Jordan played 11 full seasons with the Bulls (broken ankle 1 year, out of retirement the next) - he won 6 titles. This is year 15 for Lebron, and 3 titles is really, really great. But it aint 6.
ou post? Man, you are absolutely grating. This thread alone for the last week is just you shitting your pants constantly. Do you even like basketball? You are insufferable.
Bye then? Oh I remmeber the last time you shit your pants was when you were crying Eli was going to trial and the Giants organization would go through the coals.
How'd that turn out
It kind of went exactly how I wished and said many times it would. Manning settled, didn't go to trial and didn't cause a problem for the team.
But seriously dude, your constant, repetitive, gnashing of teeth makes these threads so much less enjoyable.
Just accept it. Been that way for years. Don't get upset about it.
In all seriousness though. This is typical post game reactions from everyone else too. Lebron plays great (which we all agree and thought he would) - then all of a sudden he is the GOAT, the best, did more with less... yada, yada, yada. We hear this every year when he plays. I mean, did anyone possibly think he was NOT going to be great? I expected them to win as well.
But the fact remains is this Celts team was not a championship caliber squad once they loss their two players. The road has gotten easier every year for Lebron to make it to the finals. So him getting there doesnt make him the GOAT.
is some awesome team must not have watched many games.
Their offense the last two games was some of the worst Ive watched all year.
But the Cavs aren't even a remotely good team if it weren't for LeBron. Would they even be nearly as good as they are now if you replaced him with Larry Bird or Magic Johnson? I doubt it.
He's top two at worst in the history of the league. When you're going up against the team with a player of that magnitude, you have your work cut out for you.
RE: RE: Dep is the king of the post game reactions. Â
Just accept it. Been that way for years. Don't get upset about it.
Most of my post game reactions are based off my in game comments and pre game comments.
So basically, I am the man!
dep, I never had an issue with you and hope never to, but you posted A LOT during this game and not in a discussion with others commenting on the gaame. It was like a running play by play feed. Just saying, when you are that outspoken on a game thread, you are painting a target on your back. Food for thought. I hate seeing you get killed like this.
Then again, I never understood how people could watch a big game and want to comment on a message board when their team is currently on. That's why I am never seen on game threads.
is some awesome team must not have watched many games.
Their offense the last two games was some of the worst Ive watched all year.
But the Cavs aren't even a remotely good team if it weren't for LeBron. Would they even be nearly as good as they are now if you replaced him with Larry Bird or Magic Johnson? I doubt it.
He's top two at worst in the history of the league. When you're going up against the team with a player of that magnitude, you have your work cut out for you.
I have constantly say he is the 2nd best ever.
My point is him getting through the east isnt like moving mountains. Its reallly really bad basketball there. Hes an amazing basketball player... but getting through the east doesnt make you the GOAT. Thats my point.
You are consistently leading teams that would be looking up to these other sub-par teams of he weren't on them? Cleveland gets a top 3 pick if LeBron and nearly anyone else in the east swap teams.
You are consistently leading teams that would be looking up to these other sub-par teams of he weren't on them? Cleveland gets a top 3 pick if LeBron and nearly anyone else in the east swap teams.
Doesnt that show how bad the rest of the league is too? Cant it be both?
I mean, this game went 7 series that the closest game was decided by 8 points.more often than not he runs through it without any competition?
You are consistently leading teams that would be looking up to these other sub-par teams of he weren't on them? Cleveland gets a top 3 pick if LeBron and nearly anyone else in the east swap teams.
Doesnt that show how bad the rest of the league is too? Cant it be both?
I mean, this game went 7 series that the closest game was decided by 8 points.more often than not he runs through it without any competition?
Yes, because he's so freaking good that the teams can't compete with his team, simply because he is on it!
Yes, because he's so freaking good that the teams can't compete with his team, simply because he is on it!
Then he should have no excuse in the finals this year, right? Thats my arguemtn. You want to say his team is dogshit, I agree. If you want to call him one of the greatest ever, I would agree. But if he is so freaking good - that whereever he goes - he wins no problem - then why is there a chance he loses 66% of the finals? I mean he was a Ray Allen 3 and a Draymond kick to the nuts away from being 1-7.
The point is winning through the East doesnt make him the GOAT. Beacsue the east is so bad that wherever he would go - they would make the finals. Now if he took a team like this through the west every year - I would agree with you. But beating Indy, Toronto, and Boston without its two best players isnt as impressive as GS beating Anthony Davis, Popevich, and Possibly Harden/Paul. Now THATS impressive, IMO.
things constantly.... saying what I am about Lebron doesnt dismiss what he has done, but trying to put in a perspective on why he isnt and probably wouldnt be better than Jordan.
Yes, because he's so freaking good that the teams can't compete with his team, simply because he is on it!
Then he should have no excuse in the finals this year, right? Thats my arguemtn. You want to say his team is dogshit, I agree. If you want to call him one of the greatest ever, I would agree. But if he is so freaking good - that whereever he goes - he wins no problem - then why is there a chance he loses 66% of the finals? I mean he was a Ray Allen 3 and a Draymond kick to the nuts away from being 1-7.
.
Because those west teams are way, way better than his east teams, and it's actually a testament that he can usually will his team to one win in a series against them.
This isn't complicated. There is nothing mutually exclusive about him being so good that whatever team team he is on the east nearly automatically becomes the best team in that conference, but not the best team in the entire league. And if he did go to the West, I imagine that team would at worst make the Western Conference Finals. Even if it was a shitty West team like Phoenix or Dallas.
RE: Lebron will be wearing his CP3 jersey tomorrow Â
things constantly.... saying what I am about Lebron doesnt dismiss what he has done, but trying to put in a perspective on why he isnt and probably wouldnt be better than Jordan.
You have an opinion that clearly isn't going to change. We get it.
Yes, because he's so freaking good that the teams can't compete with his team, simply because he is on it!
Then he should have no excuse in the finals this year, right? Thats my arguemtn. You want to say his team is dogshit, I agree. If you want to call him one of the greatest ever, I would agree. But if he is so freaking good - that whereever he goes - he wins no problem - then why is there a chance he loses 66% of the finals? I mean he was a Ray Allen 3 and a Draymond kick to the nuts away from being 1-7.
.
Because those west teams are way, way better than his east teams, and it's actually a testamen
This isn't complicated. There is nothing mutually exclusive about him being so good that whatever team team he is on the east nearly automatically becomes the best team in that conference, but not the best team in the entire league. And if he did go to the West, I imagine that team would at worst make the Western Conference Finals. Even if it was a shitty West team like Phoenix or Dallas.
Why can’t it be Lebron is really really good and the east has been really really bad?
I mean lie saying it was the best game of his career? His careeer has been validated. Seems extreme to me
An era that is mostly unwatchable as the NBA converts to Rucker Park in nicer arenas, younger than ever with one and dones, no hand-checking, no hard fouls, and the death of the conventional big man.
If the 24 year old Michael Jordan played in this era he’d average a triple double while averaging 50 ppg.
An era that is mostly unwatchable as the NBA converts to Rucker Park in nicer arenas, younger than ever with one and dones, no hand-checking, no hard fouls, and the death of the conventional big man.
If the 24 year old Michael Jordan played in this era he’d average a triple double while averaging 50 ppg.
I absolutely loathe the "greatest" arguments in basketball because the eras change so much more fundamentally than in other sports.
James has had a big hand in morphing the league, both with copy-cats and attempts to slow him down. The league for many certainly hasn't been unwatchable as evidenced by the numbers, though I totally get why folks raised in a different time dislike the game. It's a much different game.
And although Michael Jordan likely be the best player on the court no matter what era, in the era of postionless basketball, 6'8" point-forwards and generally faster players 2-5, I actually don't think Jordan would be as effective as we was in his era. There are just so many more players and teams in the league focused on stopping his brand of ball.
An era that is mostly unwatchable as the NBA converts to Rucker Park in nicer arenas, younger than ever with one and dones, no hand-checking, no hard fouls, and the death of the conventional big man.
If the 24 year old Michael Jordan played in this era he’d average a triple double while averaging 50 ppg.
I absolutely loathe the "greatest" arguments in basketball because the eras change so much more fundamentally than in other sports.
James has had a big hand in morphing the league, both with copy-cats and attempts to slow him down. The league for many certainly hasn't been unwatchable as evidenced by the numbers, though I totally get why folks raised in a different time dislike the game. It's a much different game.
And although Michael Jordan likely be the best player on the court no matter what era, in the era of postionless basketball, 6'8" point-forwards and generally faster players 2-5, I actually don't think Jordan would be as effective as we was in his era. There are just so many more players and teams in the league focused on stopping his brand of ball.
Here’s the counter argument to your last point which you absolutely may be right. Jordan played in an era where centers/power forwards dominated the game and clogged the lane. In this era with 1-5 able to shoot, the floor would be more spread for him to get to the basket. And with the goal is to shoot 3s I could see his assists rising as well.
The game has changed dramatically the last 2-3 years and individual stats are going through the roof. You can’t predict what Jordan would have done in this era... but I could see him having a 35/10 year really easily.
An era that is mostly unwatchable as the NBA converts to Rucker Park in nicer arenas, younger than ever with one and dones, no hand-checking, no hard fouls, and the death of the conventional big man.
If the 24 year old Michael Jordan played in this era he’d average a triple double while averaging 50 ppg.
I absolutely loathe the "greatest" arguments in basketball because the eras change so much more fundamentally than in other sports.
James has had a big hand in morphing the league, both with copy-cats and attempts to slow him down. The league for many certainly hasn't been unwatchable as evidenced by the numbers, though I totally get why folks raised in a different time dislike the game. It's a much different game.
And although Michael Jordan likely be the best player on the court no matter what era, in the era of postionless basketball, 6'8" point-forwards and generally faster players 2-5, I actually don't think Jordan would be as effective as we was in his era. There are just so many more players and teams in the league focused on stopping his brand of ball.
Here’s the counter argument to your last point which you absolutely may be right. Jordan played in an era where centers/power forwards dominated the game and clogged the lane. In this era with 1-5 able to shoot, the floor would be more spread for him to get to the basket. And with the goal is to shoot 3s I could see his assists rising as well.
The game has changed dramatically the last 2-3 years and individual stats are going through the roof. You can’t predict what Jordan would have done in this era... but I could see him having a 35/10 year really easily.
Part of me thinks in a wide-open league a young Jordan averages 40 a game going to the hole constantly, and the other part can't imagine 87 & 88 Jordan averaging plus 35 a game while shooting sub .200 beyond the arch in this era.
Just in terms of acceleration and vision to the rim I think Durant is the player who is the closest to Jordan today (not that close mind you) -- and even he at 6-9 is shooting plus .400 beyond the arch.
Now clearly older Jordan proved he could shoot with effectiveness later in his career. That likely would just have accelerated.
And although Michael Jordan likely be the best player on the court no matter what era, in the era of postionless basketball, 6'8" point-forwards and generally faster players 2-5, I actually don't think Jordan would be as effective as we was in his era. There are just so many more players and teams in the league focused on stopping his brand of ball.
Jordan got up and down the court like he was running the last leg of the 4X100 relay. He'd have zero problem with this supposed widespread speed in today's game.
This is a younger league with poorer fundamentals thanks in large measure to the destruction caused by the AAU level that promotes one on one over fundamental and team development. I have a son going thought it now - I taught him team basketball concepts. But that has little value in the AAU world.
Name the great ball defenders now? I can name Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, Jordan, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, Sidney Moncrief, Terry Porter, Hersey Hawkins, Mo Cheeks, Michael Cooper, etc, all from Jordan's era. And he owned all of them in an era where hand checking and forearm use was encouraged. In today's spread concept, Jordan would be getting to the rim at will with no fear of a Malone, Laimbeer, Eaton, Jabbar, Mahorn, Lanier, Gilmore, Mutumbo, Ewing, Olajuwon, Sampson, etc waiting to contest his shot.
Jordan's first step and explosion to and up where magic gifts from God. He'd feat on today's game.
He got bigger to deal with the pounding he took. But as one who saw him play, I can tell you his most athletic self was his first four years in the league. It was, and is to this day, the most amazing dominance on a basketball court I have ever seen athletically. He was fast, long, wiry, strong, unlimited energy, and fearless. And, this is the key, he had those attributes on both ends of the court.
LeBron is a helluva a player. But he's in a race for second. Hell, I don't think he's that much better than Bryant. But that's a different discussion... ;)
He got bigger to deal with the pounding he took. But as one who saw him play, I can tell you his most athletic self was his first four years in the league. It was, and is to this day, the most amazing dominance on a basketball court I have ever seen athletically. He was fast, long, wiry, strong, unlimited energy, and fearless. And, this is the key, he had those attributes on both ends of the court.
I was a little young for 80s Jordan, but have been an NBA devotee since around 90 or so. Again, I'm not an era aficionado, I think it's impossible. There are fantastic defenders in the NBA right now who don't have the liberty of hand-checks and hard fouls, who have to play straight up and win match-ups with their feet.
And I'm not saying Jordan wasn't unwordly quick, and wouldn't even be unwordly quick in today's game. But the 5 guys on the court today are orders of magnitude faster than the 5 guys on the court in 87. He did that.
Jordan's effect on the game is still felt today. 15 years after he retired and 20 years after he was himself the league is still a point-forward wing dominated game with defenses going small to stop it.
You get to within one game of the NBA Finals and get the rug pulled out from under you. Hard to see Houston winning without him, but I hope they prove me wrong.
Comparing Kobe to LBJ is absurd. LBJ is by far the more dominant player. It's not really even close.
Absurd? Really? Bryant was a 9X first team all defense. That’s nearly twice the # for LBJ. Sorry, but Bryant was a better two way player. And if you’d like me to walk you through the quality of teams Bryant had to beat in the west to make the finals, versus the year after year clown shows LeBron faced, just let me know and I’ll gladly oblige...
probably not close either. Those Laker teams that won titles were absurdly more talented then most of if not all of LeBrons. I can’t even imagine LeBron playing on them, wouldn’t matter how hard the West was.
Comparing Kobe to LBJ is absurd. LBJ is by far the more dominant player. It's not really even close.
Absurd? Really? Bryant was a 9X first team all defense. That’s nearly twice the # for LBJ. Sorry, but Bryant was a better two way player. And if you’d like me to walk you through the quality of teams Bryant had to beat in the west to make the finals, versus the year after year clown shows LeBron faced, just let me know and I’ll gladly oblige...
You conveniently forget what Kobe did after Shaq left and before Pau got there.
Harden will go for 50 if he is consistently guarding him. With no Klay/Iggy to guard Harden for this extended period.... Houston really should build a lead.
because he is getting killed on defense and on the boards. Miller talking about it now.
GS missing a ton of free throws as well.
durant will probably sign with houston in off season..
It's true. This league is so fucking stupid. I watch literally 5 games a year (3 or so Knick games and maybe 2 game 7s if they happen) and it still isn't incredibly interesting. Love playing basketball, but the favoritism of the stars, the stacking, the tanking, the lack of defensive intensity...it's so gross.
will happen with yankees as well if they go on a run...
I dont know anyone who isnt a yankee fan that likes/roots for them....haha. I think everyone is sick of them (even though I know they are f'n scary as hell.)
live and die by the 3 was never more apparent than tonight.
I'm not going to criticize MDA, Harden, or the refs. The other guys on the Rockets simply had to make some of those shots in the second half. They would've won the game if they made 20% of those open looks, let alone 35-40%. They just couldn't make a single freakin' open shot.
Has been made pretty much irrelevant. I don't know what the answer is, but there's literally no point. It's Golden State vs whatever team LeBron plays on.
plays up to 90% of their potential they will sweep Cleveland.
No they won’t sweep them. Lebron is good enough to win 1-2 games himself. He will have a historic stat line but he will have the ball so much... it’s impossible not to have it.
Has been made pretty much irrelevant. I don't know what the answer is, but there's literally no point. It's Golden State vs whatever team LeBron plays on.
i get it is golden state and cleveland again but lets not act like they just walked through the playoffs...
cleveland was on the brink twice and survived...
golden state was on the brink this series...
yes they both made it but it was not a cake wall like most years
No they won’t sweep them. Lebron is good enough to win 1-2 games himself. He will have a historic stat line but he will have the ball so much... it’s impossible not to have it.
Typically I’d agree. But I think getting past the Rockets will loosen the Warriors up - they were on life support until Paul got hurt, and were very tight - and they could get on a real roll. They are playing someone they don’t fear, and know Cleveland has significant limitations.
with opponent injuries. Kyrie and Love both out for the 2014 finals, Kawhi goes out in game 1 last season, and now CP3 out for game 7. All while they've stayed relatively healthy, besides Steph dealing with some issues.
I think Houston wins that with a healthy Paul. I know it's their offense and it's what they've done all season. But my god after 20 missed 3's in a row, maybe try to get to the basket and draw a foul? That was brutal.
Lebron should be the MVP every single season as long as he stays at this level. I know it's a regular season award but for the 4th season in a row, the playoffs have shown who the true MVP is.
with opponent injuries. Kyrie and Love both out for the 2014 finals, Kawhi goes out in game 1 last season, and now CP3 out for game 7. All while they've stayed relatively healthy, besides Steph dealing with some issues.
I think Houston wins that with a healthy Paul.
You may be correct. But you are really dismissing the injury to Iguodala. He may not be the Iggy of old and not as good as the other 4.... but he is a main cog. Defending, rebounding, and anotehr ball handler. With him in there for games 4 and 5, they may and probably would have won at least 1 if not both. The Rockets really victimized both Bell and Looney all series - when in reality - it would have been Iggy out there.
Lebron should be the MVP every single season as long as he stays at this level. I know it's a regular season award but for the 4th season in a row, the playoffs have shown who the true MVP is.
I remember when Malone won MVP over MJ in '97. Game 1 of the '97 Finals, Malone misses 2 FTs that would have given the Jazz a lead. Bulls get the ball back & MJ nails the game winner at the buzzer.
with opponent injuries. Kyrie and Love both out for the 2014 finals, Kawhi goes out in game 1 last season, and now CP3 out for game 7. All while they've stayed relatively healthy, besides Steph dealing with some issues.
I think Houston wins that with a healthy Paul. I know it's their offense and it's what they've done all season. But my god after 20 missed 3's in a row, maybe try to get to the basket and draw a foul? That was brutal.
i get warriors have 4 all stars but they were also missing a big part of their team that allows them to go small in iguodola...
yes they have gotten some luck bit the finals theynlose draymond gets suspended...
they were not losing last year tk thenspurs even with kawhi just was not happening...
id argue if igudola does not get hurt they do not lose game 4 and this series pribably doesnt go 7
with opponent injuries. Kyrie and Love both out for the 2014 finals, Kawhi goes out in game 1 last season, and now CP3 out for game 7. All while they've stayed relatively healthy, besides Steph dealing with some issues.
True.
But they did lose Green in the 2016 finals for game 5 because Green couldn’t stop kicking people with his basketball Tourette’s. And that proved very costly in that series.
Harden plays while recognizing how he is one of the best I have ever seen at certain skillsets (isolation basketball, getting defenders off-balance, footwork and timing, and getting defenders to miss the ball and hit his arm). But it was absolutely brutal for Houston that Harden was fouled on three straight 3's that weren't called.
Even worse? Missing 26 straight threes. The odds of that happening for Houston with their averages in a sample of 44 threes is something like 1 in 25,000.
As a Knicks fan who remember Starks in Game 7, perhaps Houston fans finally understand that feeling of shock.
RE: RE: Golden State has had some incredible luck Â
with opponent injuries. Kyrie and Love both out for the 2014 finals, Kawhi goes out in game 1 last season, and now CP3 out for game 7. All while they've stayed relatively healthy, besides Steph dealing with some issues.
True.
But they did lose Green in the 2016 finals for game 5 because Green couldn’t stop kicking people with his basketball Tourette’s. And that proved very costly in that series.
Intentional (or habitually reckless) acts by Draymond Green causing Draymond Green to get suspended can not be considered bad luck or anything like injuries to opposing players.
And postseason and go straight to Cleveland vs GS series
Everyone knew that would be the Finals
Yep..... especially when both were down 3-2 and had to win games 7 on the road. Especially with Boston missing their top 2 players and Rockets missing their most indespensible one. It was also known before the season that Houston would miss 27 straight 3s in a game 7 at home.
This narrative has got to stop. Both teams were not guarantees to make it based on how the played this series.
a little adversity but the 2 better teams won as expected. Injuries are a part of the game, even with Paul if GS had Iggy then that could even be advantage GS.
The narrative is spot on, just because you didn’t sweep didn’t mean it wasn’t likely to happen.
James Harden is one of the most maddening "star" players I've ever seen. The guy takes an unbelievable number of awful shots. Forced shots with hands in his face when he has open players he can swing it to. The amount of bricks this guy laid was almost hard to fathom for a guy people were trying to make an MVP case for. Harden doesn't make anyone around him better.
He's a great talent and he obviously doesn't suck... but for all of the good he does, some of the chucking is just indefensible. Super, super low percentage looks.
Anyway... no matter how close we came to a different Final, we're here once again.
I'd love to think the Cavs have a shot, but they're just undermanned. I expect this to go much like last year. And then I get to hear about how LeBron's finals record sucks and thus, he doesn't deserve the accolades.
a little adversity but the 2 better teams won as expected. Injuries are a part of the game, even with Paul if GS had Iggy then that could even be advantage GS.
The narrative is spot on, just because you didn’t sweep didn’t mean it wasn’t likely to happen.
so you knew the cavs were going to the finals down 3-2?
you knew the warriors were going to finals down 3-2?
He's a great talent and he obviously doesn't suck... but for all of the good he does, some of the chucking is just indefensible. Super, super low percentage looks.
Anyway... no matter how close we came to a different Final, we're here once again.
I'd love to think the Cavs have a shot, but they're just undermanned. I expect this to go much like last year. And then I get to hear about how LeBron's finals record sucks and thus, he doesn't deserve the accolades.
Groundhog Day: NBA Version.
Its either that narrative or how he beats the odds of beating teams in the East that are actually worse than his. And because of that he is the GOAT.
a little adversity but the 2 better teams won as expected. Injuries are a part of the game, even with Paul if GS had Iggy then that could even be advantage GS.
The narrative is spot on, just because you didn’t sweep didn’t mean it wasn’t likely to happen.
so you knew the cavs were going to the finals down 3-2?
you knew the warriors were going to finals down 3-2?
When Paul got hurt, I figured GS would win. LeBron being down 3-2 against a team that overachieved is a bet I’d always take if I were a betting man.
I didn’t know for certain of course, but Cleveland was likely winning once Boston couldn’t close out earlier. The other series was more of a toss up but GS has too many horses and are a better team. The better team won’t bother series.
He's a great talent and he obviously doesn't suck... but for all of the good he does, some of the chucking is just indefensible. Super, super low percentage looks.
Anyway... no matter how close we came to a different Final, we're here once again.
I'd love to think the Cavs have a shot, but they're just undermanned. I expect this to go much like last year. And then I get to hear about how LeBron's finals record sucks and thus, he doesn't deserve the accolades.
Groundhog Day: NBA Version.
Its either that narrative or how he beats the odds of beating teams in the East that are actually worse than his. And because of that he is the GOAT.
8 straight finals. Don’t fight it. Don’t rationalize it. Just embrace greatness. The NBA is better with LeBron in it and we are all witnesses.
The Cavs perimeter defense is atrocious and only survived Boston because of how poorly the young guards shot from deep. The Warriors move the ball much faster and have 2 of the best 3 point shooters we've ever seen, AND Kevin Durant. The Cavs will not be able to stop that offense.
It's too bad Houston can't figure out a way to trade Harden for LeBron because that roster is perfect for LeBron. Surround him with great 3-point shooters in Gordon and Paul who can also create offense on their own. Solid perimter defenders in Ariza and Mbah a Moute, and a rangy big in Capela who can be great on the pick and roll.
Now THAT would be an awesome 7-game series with Golden State.
and Brady and Montana. Why can't people recognize that they are great, but were also blessed to be in absolutely amazing situations that other greats would have killed for?
I think it's really minimizing what he's done to say he "has it easy"
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
and Brady and Montana. Why can't people recognize that they are great, but were also blessed to be in absolutely amazing situations that other greats would have killed for?
Didnt Harden choose to leave 2 HOF's in their prime because he wanted a couple more million a year?
Lebron left two teams in which he help establish the roster because they werent good enough as well.
I think it's really minimizing what he's done to say he "has it easy"
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
Again, you can call him one of the 2-3 greatest ever AND recognizing how bad the East.
Everyone says how bad his surrounding cast is - but take the best player off every East team for the last 8 years - and you can say the sae thing about those teams as well.
Boston this year would have beaten Lebron with Heyward and Irving, IMO. But went into battle with a 20 and 21 year old rooke/2nd year player and a career backup as their 3 best players. I think about 6 teams in the West would love to be in that position as well.
not Harden's. He asked for the contract he was worthy of and they didn't want to pay the tax. Don't remember him demanding a trade though.
He was the 6th man. I am not disagreeing that OKC may have blundered the tax management - but he wanted a max contract and OKC saw him as the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. I thought I saw the offer was somewhere between 1-2 million less than the mx per year.
So he wanted more money at the risk of going to a lesser team. That was his choice. He got all the stats and accolades that he wanted. Unfortunately, he may never get the ultimate team award.
I think it's really minimizing what he's done to say he "has it easy"
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
Again, you can call him one of the 2-3 greatest ever AND recognizing how bad the East.
Everyone says how bad his surrounding cast is - but take the best player off every East team for the last 8 years - and you can say the sae thing about those teams as well.
Boston this year would have beaten Lebron with Heyward and Irving, IMO. But went into battle with a 20 and 21 year old rooke/2nd year player and a career backup as their 3 best players. I think about 6 teams in the West would love to be in that position as well.
You can take the best player off every East team for the last 8 years - but those teams weren't in the Finals.
are making a purely basketball argument that he does more things well on a basketball court than any other player. It's not just ring counting - if it were, Russell is the best by a wide margin. It's not level of competition or caliber of teammates, etc. Lebron's a legendary SF, and could have been a HOF PF (in this era at least) and a HOF PG (Magic on steroids). Hell, he's probably a HOF tight end in football. He's a playmaker at heart, but can score 40 whenever he pleases. In his prime, he could defend four positions. I can't think of other players who mastered every facet of the game the way he has. And his basketball IQ is higher than most coaches, if not all. Perhaps "best all around player" is preferable to greatest of all time, to avoid taking Jordan's holy name in vain.
the Bulls, the team was still a title contender the very next season and might've gotten back to the finals without him if it wasn't for Hue Hollins phantom foul call during the Knicks series.
Take Lebron off of this year's Cavs team and I doubt they even make the playoffs in the shitty east.
Reasonable people can differ on whether Lebron or Jordan is better, but using Lebron's record in the finals compared to Jordan's as if that ends the discussion is just lazy analysis when you consider the teammates that Jordan had in Chicago and the ones that Lebron had in both CLE tenures.
the Bulls, the team was still a title contender the very next season and might've gotten back to the finals without him if it wasn't for Hue Hollins phantom foul call during the Knicks series.
Take Lebron off of this year's Cavs team and I doubt they even make the playoffs in the shitty east.
Reasonable people can differ on whether Lebron or Jordan is better, but using Lebron's record in the finals compared to Jordan's as if that ends the discussion is just lazy analysis when you consider the teammates that Jordan had in Chicago and the ones that Lebron had in both CLE tenures.
Kyrie and Love would be better than anyone other than Pippen on those Bulls teams.
I think it's really minimizing what he's done to say he "has it easy"
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
You give credit where credit is due so I can tip my hat to LeBron for doing something like this. But the East has been putrid since he arrived, except for a few years when Ainge got Garnett and Allen together with Pierce, and Lebron certainly struggled to get by them.
The 2001 Sixers that got to the finals were atrocious. Go look at that roster. That makes the Cavs roster look competent.
I think it's really minimizing what he's done to say he "has it easy"
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
You give credit where credit is due so I can tip my hat to LeBron for doing something like this. But the East has been putrid since he arrived, except for a few years when Ainge got Garnett and Allen together with Pierce, and Lebron certainly struggled to get by them.
The 2001 Sixers that got to the finals were atrocious. Go look at that roster. That makes the Cavs roster look competent.
I don't need to - I remember who was on that team. And Iverson got a lot of credit for carrying that team as far as he did - as he should have.
He's a great talent and he obviously doesn't suck... but for all of the good he does, some of the chucking is just indefensible. Super, super low percentage looks.
Anyway... no matter how close we came to a different Final, we're here once again.
I'd love to think the Cavs have a shot, but they're just undermanned. I expect this to go much like last year. And then I get to hear about how LeBron's finals record sucks and thus, he doesn't deserve the accolades.
Groundhog Day: NBA Version.
Its either that narrative or how he beats the odds of beating teams in the East that are actually worse than his. And because of that he is the GOAT.
Again: of course those teams are worse than his, because they don't have him on them.
and Brady and Montana. Why can't people recognize that they are great, but were also blessed to be in absolutely amazing situations that other greats would have killed for?
Didnt Harden choose to leave 2 HOF's in their prime because he wanted a couple more million a year?
.
Did he? Everything I've read says that decision was one the Thunder made, not Harden.
the Bulls, the team was still a title contender the very next season and might've gotten back to the finals without him if it wasn't for Hue Hollins phantom foul call during the Knicks series.
Take Lebron off of this year's Cavs team and I doubt they even make the playoffs in the shitty east.
Reasonable people can differ on whether Lebron or Jordan is better, but using Lebron's record in the finals compared to Jordan's as if that ends the discussion is just lazy analysis when you consider the teammates that Jordan had in Chicago and the ones that Lebron had in both CLE tenures.
Kyrie and Love would be better than anyone other than Pippen on those Bulls teams.
That's a pretty significant "other than" considering how much higher Pippen ranks on the all time list than Irving or Love likely ever will.
not Harden's. He asked for the contract he was worthy of and they didn't want to pay the tax. Don't remember him demanding a trade though.
He was the 6th man. I am not disagreeing that OKC may have blundered the tax management - but he wanted a max contract and OKC saw him as the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. I thought I saw the offer was somewhere between 1-2 million less than the mx per year.
So he wanted more money at the risk of going to a lesser team. That was his choice. He got all the stats and accolades that he wanted. Unfortunately, he may never get the ultimate team award.
Did OKC ever go that high on that offer? I didn't think they did but maybe I'm wrong. He's proven that he was worthy of that ask though. OKC had just gone to the first of what should have been multiple finals with that trio. And they blew it up to save money. It was an asinine decision. In a way they've gotten what they deserve by going cheap at that point.
Frustrating thing for those fans is they've since decided to start paying more, but for a Russ extension who they'll never win with, and with guys like PG13 and Melo. If they'd just paid Harden when they should have, they'd have a title by now.
I don't need to - I remember who was on that team. And Iverson got a lot of credit for carrying that team as far as he did - as he should have.
Did he get them there 8 times in a row?
That's not the point I'm making, but no. I was just showing how relatively poor teams, compared to the team in the West, have been able to get out of the East for 20 years.
13 out of the the last 17 years the winner has come out of the west. It took Miami's big 3 and the Celtics big 3 to break the spell. It's been pure dominance because the talent shift has essentially been so one-sided.
And two of those Ws were Cleveland erasing the 3-1 deficit against the Warriors and Ray Allen pulling the off the miracle in game 6 in 2013. Otherwise, it's even more lopsided...
Engelmann: Probably that LeBron has surpassed Michael Jordan as the best player ever. Jordan still has more titles and will always have the superior Finals win-loss percentage, but he also benefited from having significantly stronger supporting casts that included Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman.
Kyrie Irving, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen, and Kevin Love may have a word to say about this. Five future HOF'ers.
The notion that Lebron has little to play with in his entire career is just false.
that someone would blame Harden for the OKC trade debacle. Nobody takes a discount on their second contract. Not only that, OKC wanted him at a discount to "keep the team together" but refused to include a trade kicker. The owner was cheap and their GM made it worse by making a bad deal. In hindsight, the luxury tax hits wouldn't have even been that bad given the cap/tax jumps in subsequent seasons. OKC botched it, plain and simple.
that someone would blame Harden for the OKC trade debacle. Nobody takes a discount on their second contract. Not only that, OKC wanted him at a discount to "keep the team together" but refused to include a trade kicker. The owner was cheap and their GM made it worse by making a bad deal. In hindsight, the luxury tax hits wouldn't have even been that bad given the cap/tax jumps in subsequent seasons. OKC botched it, plain and simple.
He was also a 6th man who wanted a max contract which had never been done before. He was offered 2 million less than the max, and he said he wanted more money. And thats all fine and dandy because that is his right.
But when Harden is bitching last night that he lost to a team with 4 all-stars - well that could have been him too. He chose 2 million more a year over staying with a potential dynasty.
He was a 17/4/3 player his last year in OKC and he wanted max money - as an owner - that is hard to justify. It looks silly now - but he wouldnt have had the same career as he has if he stayed with KD and RW.
I think you're off on this one, dep. The Harden trade is on OKC management/ownership alone.
Thats fine. Harden has had a remarkable regualr season run that makes it look worse. But my opinion is still pretty unchanged on this.
1. He doesnt have the same career as a 3rd wheel.
2. He was offered 14 million a year, said he wanted 2 more million.
3. He was having a good (not superstar or great) career up until that point, and he was still a 6th man.
He was offered a contract and openly stated he wanted more money a year (2 million to be precise) and made it known. And that is well within his rights as a player. He should always do whats best for himself. But he had a chance to be with a dynasty for MANY years, and he decided not too. If you want to say OKC botched it or underestimated how good he would be - thats fine. But the fact is they offered him more money than any 6th man in the NBA was ever offered that was near the max.
He wanted more money, but I also suspect that he also wanted to be "the main guy". He knew he would never be that in OKC. IMO, thats the real reason he wouldnt sign the contract.
So for him to cry last night that he lost to a team with 4 all-stars - well sorry, I dont buy it. That could have been him.
He continued: “But when you talk about just a basketball player, a complete basketball player, LeBron James is a much better basketball player than Michael Jordan.”
And Jordan should respond... and John Stockton was a much, much better player than Isaiah Thomas.
that someone would blame Harden for the OKC trade debacle. Nobody takes a discount on their second contract. Not only that, OKC wanted him at a discount to "keep the team together" but refused to include a trade kicker. The owner was cheap and their GM made it worse by making a bad deal. In hindsight, the luxury tax hits wouldn't have even been that bad given the cap/tax jumps in subsequent seasons. OKC botched it, plain and simple.
He was also a 6th man who wanted a max contract which had never been done before. He was offered 2 million less than the max, and he said he wanted more money. And thats all fine and dandy because that is his right.
saying he was the "6th man" is meaningless. He played the 3rd most mins on the team.
Quote:
But when Harden is bitching last night that he lost to a team with 4 all-stars - well that could have been him too. He chose 2 million more a year over staying with a potential dynasty.
funny how you frame it as Harden choosing money over a dynasty, and not OKC making that choice. Regardless, what's relevant is that OKC controlled Harden for TWO more seasons. They didn't have to trade him. It was THEIR choice, not Harden's.
Quote:
He was a 17/4/3 player his last year in OKC and he wanted max money - as an owner - that is hard to justify.
It's only hard to justify if you're unfamiliar with this sort of thing. The Rockets paid him right away, so it wasn't hard to justify for him. That summer guys like Eric Gordom and Hibbert signed max offer sheets. Most teams in the league would have paid him. Or, they simply would have kept him and worried about it later. There was no rush to do a deal.
saying he was the "6th man" is meaningless. He played the 3rd most mins on the team.
funny how you frame it as Harden choosing money over a dynasty, and not OKC making that choice. Regardless, what's relevant is that OKC controlled Harden for TWO more seasons. They didn't have to trade him. It was THEIR choice, not Harden's.
It's only hard to justify if you're unfamiliar with this sort of thing. The Rockets paid him right away, so it wasn't hard to justify for him. That summer guys like Eric Gordom and Hibbert signed max offer sheets. Most teams in the league would have paid him. Or, they simply would have kept him and worried about it later. There was no rush to do a deal.
I eliminated all the stuff I said to shorten the quote.
1. Fair point. I am wrong in that regard.
2. He came out and said he wanted more money, so yes he did make that decision as well. OKC could have kept him. I saw that they excercised his option in 2011, so I thought he had only 1 more year (the first year he played in Houston). And I agree it was OKC's choice to trade him, and it was also Harden's choice NOT to sign the extension. People are acting like he wasnt offered a contract. He was, and it wasnt an awful one.
3. The justification could be proven in what you wrote. Eric Gordon and Roy Hibbert got max deals and they were mistakes. There's a risk. There was no guarantee Harden would turn out to be a great regular season player (and I think we can all agree he wouldnt be this good on the Thunder with two better players). The rockets took the risk and it worked out for them. There was no guarantee.
As far as them waiting and trading him - you are right, they could have went onto the next season and traded him if things werent going well or they thought he wasnt coming back. That I agree with you. And I believe this is where OKC made the mistake.
But the contract offered to him on the extension as regards to the rest of the league was more than fair IMO.
willing to play ball on a lesser deal WITH a trade kicker but OKC wouldn't do it. I can't think of a similar situation where a team let an up and coming player slip away over such a small amount of money. At the numbers mentioned, it was going to be a good contract even if he turned into "James Harden borderline all-star" instead of "James Harden NBA candidate".
If you want to tell me OKC wanted to preserve cap flexibility going forward and they didn't think a team with those 3 players (and Ibaka) making that kind of money was going to be a finals contender - that's at least indicative of some sort of plan. But that's not what they were thinking. The contract they were offering was going to put them at the cap anyway. They just wanted to save a few million in luxury tax money - when they were already a profitable franchise. It was shortsighted on so many levels...
In other words, almost nothing. It’s possible Harden got ran out of OKC, it’s possible he didn’t get along with Durant and Westbrook, it’s possible he wanted to force a trade to be the man and make the most possible money. Who knows. And that’s precisely why I don’t bother trying to play that game, too many variables and I’m not going to shit on Harden for how it ended up.
that a previous bizarre contract extension given to some mediocre player on the Thunder ultimately made it impossible to give Harden the max and keep him. It was some Kendrick Perkins-level player who fans wanted off the court every time he set foot upon it. I don't think it actually was Kendrick Perkins -- that would be totally absurd -- but it was someone li...
Lebron vs Jordan? It’s a debate for sure but anybody dismissing Jordan as not complete is off the mark. Way off. There wasn’t anything he couldn’t do. I couldn’t imagine him with no hand check or hard fouls under the basket. He would blow by everybody and finish at the rim all day long.
that a previous bizarre contract extension given to some mediocre player on the Thunder ultimately made it impossible to give Harden the max and keep him. It was some Kendrick Perkins-level player who fans wanted off the court every time he set foot upon it. I don't think it actually was Kendrick Perkins -- that would be totally absurd -- but it was someone li...
...oh shit. It WAS Kendrick Perkins!
eh, the Perk contract is sort of defensible. It was only 4/36 and nobody knew he was going to be completely washed up by the time he was 29. What isn't defensible is that OKC never used the amnesty on him. They were simply too cheap...
Lebron vs Jordan? It’s a debate for sure but anybody dismissing Jordan as not complete is off the mark. Way off. There wasn’t anything he couldn’t do. I couldn’t imagine him with no hand check or hard fouls under the basket. He would blow by everybody and finish at the rim all day long.
Right. ESPN is in full LeBron-a-thon mode right now. They are all in on LeBron having secured the GOAT mantle.
You would think he beat beat the Thomas led Pistons, the Erving led Sixers and the Bird led Celtics to get the finals the way they are packaging this result.
Jordan's '88 season when he won MVP and DPOTY was as good as it gets. LBJ is a very good two way player, but I don't think he's quite in the rarefied air Jordan is with offense and defense (Jordan was 9X, first team all defensive team, and frankly, it should have been at least 3 more times...)
willing to play ball on a lesser deal WITH a trade kicker but OKC wouldn't do it. I can't think of a similar situation where a team let an up and coming player slip away over such a small amount of money. At the numbers mentioned, it was going to be a good contract even if he turned into "James Harden borderline all-star" instead of "James Harden NBA candidate".
If you want to tell me OKC wanted to preserve cap flexibility going forward and they didn't think a team with those 3 players (and Ibaka) making that kind of money was going to be a finals contender - that's at least indicative of some sort of plan. But that's not what they were thinking. The contract they were offering was going to put them at the cap anyway. They just wanted to save a few million in luxury tax money - when they were already a profitable franchise. It was shortsighted on so many levels...
Enzo I wasn’t aware of the trade kicker being the main point.
Thank you. I just think the initial offer was pretty fair. As far as the other details mentioned... OKC did drop the ball.
was the main sticking point but supposedly it was discussed. Regardless, this trade was first-guessed by many that cover the league as a steal by the Rockets and a disaster for the Thunder the day it happened (e.g. Simmons and Lowe went nuts about it for weeks after and still do to this day). The guy was 22 and was already a borderline elite offensive player. You just don't see guys that young and talented traded while on their rookie contracts over such a small amount of money. As already mentioned, they had so many other options with how to handle it. Instead, they made a panic trade before the extension deadline in October which benefited everyone in the transaction except for the Thunder.
'considering how much higher Pippen ranks on the all time list ' Â
the NBA HOF is pretty inclusive compared to other sports so they're both getting in eventually. That said, Bosh was a two-way player who made 11 all-star teams. He's a lock. Love is something less than a lock but he's got the ring, made 5 all-star teams, and two all-nba teams. Like bosh, his pre-LeBron stats were ridiculous. He's getting in.
RE: 'considering how much higher Pippen ranks on the all time list ' Â
Yes Kobe won without him but he also cost the Lakers a champ vs Det. Shaw dominated DET but Kobe wanted to be the man. It cost them the Championship vs an inferior team.
Yes Kobe won without him but he also cost the Lakers a champ vs Det. Shaw dominated DET but Kobe wanted to be the man. It cost them the Championship vs an inferior team.
And Shaq got owned in a four 4 game sweep by Hakeem and the Rockets in '94 as the prohibitive favorites.
This list was done like two years ago, have Pippen 25th all-time. All-time NBA Ranking - ( New Window )
I remember that list. As with any list, there is going to be controversy.
But let me say this, Shaq over Bryant is wrong. When Bryant won 2 titles without Shaq, literally carrying the Lakers, that knocks Shaq below Bryant.
Bryant was a GREAT two way player. Yes, he shot too much, but he left it all on the line on both ends of the court.
if you're into the newer stats (WS, Box +/-, VORP), Gasol led the lakers in nearly all of them during both title seasons so the idea that Kobe "literally carried" them is a joke. And during the supposed prime years of his career post Shaq/pre Gasol, Kobe didn't get out of the first round. Why wasn't he able to carry those teams?
Regardless, I take Shaq's career and numbers over Kobe any day.
RE: RE: RE: 'considering how much higher Pippen ranks on the all time list ' Â
if you're into the newer stats (WS, Box +/-, VORP), Gasol led the lakers in nearly all of them during both title seasons so the idea that Kobe "literally carried" them is a joke. And during the supposed prime years of his career post Shaq/pre Gasol, Kobe didn't get out of the first round. Why wasn't he able to carry those teams?
Regardless, I take Shaq's career and numbers over Kobe any day.
Every team competing for a title, needs to have a Batman and Robin. So it took the Lakers some time to solve that after Shaq left. There is no such thing as a one man show, so I can't hold that against Bryant. The West has been brutal for 18 years.
When Shaq was fat and out of shape in 02 and 03, it was Bryant who carried his ass. And Shaq has admitted as much.
You can certainly lean on the new stats to a point, but here is a test - you need to make free throws to win or tie a game or you need a bucket to tie or win a game, who you going to? Shaq or Kobe?
It should be a pretty straightforward, quick answer.
Overrated. He guarded no one until the last 5 minutes. Picking all man defenses has gotten better over the years but the inclusion of Kobe’s 9x made the award a mockery.
shaq vs. Kobe? Get real.
Here’s a question tho. Would Shaq have success or as much in today’s game? His guarding the pick and roll would be entertaining.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 'considering how much higher Pippen ranks on the all time list ' Â
Every team competing for a title, needs to have a Batman and Robin. So it took the Lakers some time to solve that after Shaq left. There is no such thing as a one man show, so I can't hold that against Bryant. The West has been brutal for 18 years.
no such thing as a one man show? But you just said Kobe "literally carried them". That's an awfully quick 180 you're doing there, lol.
Quote:
When Shaq was fat and out of shape in 02 and 03, it was Bryant who carried his ass. And Shaq has admitted as much.
some facts, just for fun...
Playoff PER in 2002: Shaq, 28.3 / Kobe, 20.5
Playoff PER in 2003: Shaq, 30.6 / Kobe 22.2
All the other relevant stats tell the same story. Oh, and Shaq won the finals MVP 3x in a row.
Quote:
You can certainly lean on the new stats to a point, but here is a test - you need to make free throws to win or tie a game or you need a bucket to tie or win a game, who you going to? Shaq or Kobe?
of course basketball is slightly more complicated than that. But if reducing it to something so limited and simple makes you feel better about your ridiculous assertion, have at it.
Quote:
It should be a pretty straightforward, quick answer.
it's a quick answer to a stupid question. Congrats.
Jordan Bell started to stick his ass out but then Harden pulled him down to make it look like an egregious moving screen. It wasn't pic.twitter.com/hpqpJuM5x9
— Drew Shiller (@DrewShiller) May 29, 2018
Once you saw the rear angle, it was clear as day Harden should have been called for a foul. But then again, he forgot about these types of plays after bitching about the officiating after the game.
Lebron vs Jordan? It’s a debate for sure but anybody dismissing Jordan as not complete is off the mark. Way off. There wasn’t anything he couldn’t do. I couldn’t imagine him with no hand check or hard fouls under the basket. He would blow by everybody and finish at the rim all day long.
Right. ESPN is in full LeBron-a-thon mode right now. They are all in on LeBron having secured the GOAT mantle.
You would think he beat beat the Thomas led Pistons, the Erving led Sixers and the Bird led Celtics to get the finals the way they are packaging this result.
Jordan's '88 season when he won MVP and DPOTY was as good as it gets. LBJ is a very good two way player, but I don't think he's quite in the rarefied air Jordan is with offense and defense (Jordan was 9X, first team all defensive team, and frankly, it should have been at least 3 more times...)
The Kobe revision history is truly remarkable. He was not a better player than Shaq. And now he’s viewed as this basketball genius with these bullshit video breakdowns. He played selfish basketball and openly quit during games i.e refusing to shoot an entire half.
I also love how he includes himself in the class of Lebron and MJ. He’s not even close.
You can certainly lean on the new stats to a point, but here is a test - you need to make free throws to win or tie a game or you need a bucket to tie or win a game, who you going to? Shaq or Kobe?
It should be a pretty straightforward, quick answer.
Quick answer?
If you want to reduce it to something this simplistic, then the answers are quick.
Bucket? Shaq, he led the league in FG% 10 times.
Free throws? Kobe. He's a SG and Shaq is a C.
The Kobe revision history is truly remarkable. He was not a better player than Shaq. And now he’s viewed as this basketball genius with these bullshit video breakdowns. He played selfish basketball and openly quit during games i.e refusing to shoot an entire half.
I also love how he includes himself in the class of Lebron and MJ. He’s not even close.
while he was still playing I seem to recall several posters here who felt he was better than MJ. It was like an Onion article.
Jordan Bell started to stick his ass out but then Harden pulled him down to make it look like an egregious moving screen. It wasn't pic.twitter.com/hpqpJuM5x9
— Drew Shiller (@DrewShiller) May 29, 2018
Once you saw the rear angle, it was clear as day Harden should have been called for a foul. But then again, he forgot about these types of plays after bitching about the officiating after the game.
This was NOT a moving screen.
I actually understand why Harden was mad. They really did miss a few fouls in threes that they normally call for him, and they *certainly* normally call against the Warriors. Harden probably just can't understand what changed. I'm with him there, but I like the change.
If Cleveland makes this interesting. One of the 2 best players of all time is going to have the ball 95% of the time against a team with NO ONE to protect the paint. If Lebron plays well, they are going to be in every game.
I mean, David West is trying to guard him. I bet nygiants16 could get 14-16 against him :)
cannot play the rest of this series. Maybe give Hood another chance. Idk but not Clarkson
They need Derrick rose and his 70% three point shooting in the playoffs haha
Jordan bell still sucks balls. And draymond is killing the warriors .
Cavs 7-0 run without Lebron.
Two of the four from those trades have been complete disasters. And they let Wade go to give Hood playing time and Wade showed in the Philly series he could still contribute
around Lebron this year is brutal. He's a one man show. They are going to need to get real hot shooting which doesn't seem likely. Lebron can only kick it out for a wide open brick so many times.
when JR ran out the clock - he put his hand over his face and was fighting back hysterical laughter. Just an incredible sequence. He had a layup! Durant would've been forced to foul him there.
Your four HOFers barely survived a game against a one-man team. Brilliant stuff.
Warriors are really missing Iguodala, especially on D
The problem is the same guy who once scored 32 points in a Finals game 7 (Draymond) is too scared to shoot the damn ball now. It's like they're playing 3 on 5 because their 5th player is usually garbage unless it's Livingston, who's okay at best. Every time Draymond makes a shot now, people celebrate like they're shocked.
I enjoyed the game. LeBron was amazing. JR was stupid... I'm stunned (not really). The Warriors are also being too damn lazy on defense. The Cavs aren't even setting good picks and the Warriors just let them get the matchup they want with LeBron.
I think the only person in the same boat as JR Smith was Javale McGee Â
that judgement calls can be reviewed like that block/charge. Cavs did not get help from the whistle tonight. Feels like they missed their chance and the series will be quick now. Hope not
that judgement calls can be reviewed like that block/charge. Cavs did not get help from the whistle tonight. Feels like they missed their chance and the series will be quick now. Hope not
Golden State is a loathsome group of players
it was absolutely the right call, block all the way
Your four HOFers barely survived a game against a one-man team. Brilliant stuff.
Warriors are really missing Iguodala, especially on D
The problem is the same guy who once scored 32 points in a Finals game 7 (Draymond) is too scared to shoot the damn ball now. It's like they're playing 3 on 5 because their 5th player is usually garbage unless it's Livingston, who's okay at best. Every time Draymond makes a shot now, people celebrate like they're shocked.
I enjoyed the game. LeBron was amazing. JR was stupid... I'm stunned (not really). The Warriors are also being too damn lazy on defense. The Cavs aren't even setting good picks and the Warriors just let them get the matchup they want with LeBron.
Warriors finally played defense in OT, that made the difference
It was clearly a block. You can't be sliding while the ballhandler Â
But that’s not my point. The only part that should be reviewable is whether he’s in the restricted area or not. Should not be able to review a judgement call
It’d be like reviewing a pass interference penalty just because it’s late in the game and an important call.
Cavs got multiple bad breaks from the officials. Topped off by ejecting a guy for a shooting foul on the elbow and then allowing that clown Draymond to escalate the situation
But that’s not my point. The only part that should be reviewable is whether he’s in the restricted area or not. Should not be able to review a judgement call
simple question, if lebron stands still instead of sliding left does durqnt go by him?
he slid into durant after durant already was making his move, it was a block clear as day...
RE: It was clearly a block. You can't be sliding while the ballhandler Â
It’d be like reviewing a pass interference penalty just because it’s late in the game and an important call.
Cavs got multiple bad breaks from the officials. Topped off by ejecting a guy for a shooting foul on the elbow and then allowing that clown Draymond to escalate the situation
umm no they called it a charge..
second go watch it again thompson threw an elbow that is why he was ejected...
RE: RE: It was clearly a block. You can't be sliding while the ballhandler Â
An on-ball, block/charge situation occurs when contact is made between a defensive player and an offensive player who is moving in a particular direction or trying to change directions. A defender is permitted to establish his legal guarding position in the path of a dribbler, thus “beating him to the spot.”
LeBron had already established his position right before contact was made. Beyond that, they called it a charge on the court and he was not in the restricted area.
You can't change a call like that once you've made it. It's horseshit.
An on-ball, block/charge situation occurs when contact is made between a defensive player and an offensive player who is moving in a particular direction or trying to change directions. A defender is permitted to establish his legal guarding position in the path of a dribbler, thus “beating him to the spot.”
LeBron had already established his position right before contact was made. Beyond that, they called it a charge on the court and he was not in the restricted area.
You can't change a call like that once you've made it. It's horseshit.
lebron did not establish anything
he was still moving when durant was already in the air Â
It’d be like reviewing a pass interference penalty just because it’s late in the game and an important call.
Cavs got multiple bad breaks from the officials. Topped off by ejecting a guy for a shooting foul on the elbow and then allowing that clown Draymond to escalate the situation
umm no they called it a charge..
second go watch it again thompson threw an elbow that is why he was ejected...
Had his feet set, he did drift to his left, but I think Durant plows through him regardless. Doesn’t have to be completely still to be a charge. Don’t think it’s a clear overturn regardless of the shenanigans that led to them being able to review it in the first place
is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
For some stupid reason, they can also review whether or not he had established position.
I really don't think that should be reviewable. We're getting to a point in sports where we're micro-reviewing every single aspect and it's just overkill.
They called it a charge, it should have stayed that way.
is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
For some stupid reason, they can also review whether or not he had established position.
I really don't think that should be reviewable. We're getting to a point in sports where we're micro-reviewing every single aspect and it's just overkill.
They called it a charge, it should have stayed that way.
Restricted area initiated the review. That's the crock of shit here, it wasn't close.
is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
For some stupid reason, they can also review whether or not he had established position.
I really don't think that should be reviewable. We're getting to a point in sports where we're micro-reviewing every single aspect and it's just overkill.
They called it a charge, it should have stayed that way.
Restricted area initiated the review. That's the crock of shit here, it wasn't close.
Back to what actually matters, this Is the part that is hard to understand. Charge can only be reviewed if the restricted area call has to be reviewed first. Lebron was not even close to the restricted area. Should have never gone to the monitor in the first place
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It was clearly a block. You can't be sliding while the ballhandler Â
is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
For some stupid reason, they can also review whether or not he had established position.
I really don't think that should be reviewable. We're getting to a point in sports where we're micro-reviewing every single aspect and it's just overkill.
They called it a charge, it should have stayed that way.
Restricted area initiated the review. That's the crock of shit here, it wasn't close.
Yeah, you're right - it was clear as day that he wasn't. He was like a foot outside of it. So stupid.
LeBron clearly slid in, still moving and already underneath Durant. He restricted area is irrelevant if the defender isn’t correctly in position. Maybe the review rule sucks, but blame the nba for that.
the rule sucks, not the way it was executed. That was clearly a block. I know you don't have to be set in the NBA, but Lebron was still moving into position and was the one who initiated the contact.
Watch the replay - it is not even close to a charge.
BUT - it is horseshit to be able to review a judgement call, especially since the reason they went to the monitor was for the restricted zone. He wasn't even close to being in it.
But it is the NBA being the NBA. They always seem one step removed from being the WWE in the way end games are handled.
but he got to the spot first and his feet were set before Durant got there. His upper body was just kind of moving with the contact to catch durant squarely with his chest, which he did without leaning away from his overall position. It wasn't a text book charge it was more of a 50-50 call, but I think they had it right on the floor and regardless of the replay rules to overrule it was insane.
BUT - it is horseshit to be able to review a judgement call, especially since the reason they went to the monitor was for the restricted zone. He wasn't even close to being in it..
Whether it was a block or charge is irrelevant. It shouldn’t have been able to be reviewed at all because he clearly wasn’t in the restricted area, and reviewing a judgement call is bad practice in the first place.
But I’m beating a dead horse st this point. It doesn’t change the fact that if Hill just makes a free throw or JR isn’t a moron, they probably still win
But I don't know how you review that call, let alone overturn it and I always prefer officials get it right, even if it causes a slow down in the game.
LeBron was in a legal guarding position, facing Durant and he beat Durant to the spot. LeBron is allowed to keep moving laterally (as long as it's not into the player) just as Durant is allowed to keep moving on his path. Durant wasn't able to get his head and torso around LeBron and so the contact was his fault.
It's a coinflip as to whether that gets called a charge or a block. To reverse the call, though, was an egregious overstep, in my opinion.
the block/charge call and JR Smith-ness of the last thirty seconds of the game will mar not only one of the greatest Finals performances we'll see from an individual player, but likely undoes any chance Cleveland has of making this a competitive series.
Golden State's defense was horrific in regulation Â
and not sideways and slipping underneath with his right foot sliding the entire time? Very strange how a group of people see this so differently.
Plus you cannot slide once the offensive player is in the air. Feet set or not (and I dont think they were either). Basically you are saying its ok to plant your feet and lean all the way to the left or right as the guy jumps.
Did JR Smith really pretend he knew what he was doing? Â
the block/charge call and JR Smith-ness of the last thirty seconds of the game will mar not only one of the greatest Finals performances we'll see from an individual player, but likely undoes any chance Cleveland has of making this a competitive series.
if george hill makes 1 free throw it is over, we are not talking about any of this
on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
Yes almost 5 seconds I think, plenty of time for them to score. Not sure if they had a timeout left though.
on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
ok not over but the game was still in their hands...
and not sideways and slipping underneath with his right foot sliding the entire time? Very strange how a group of people see this so differently.
Here are screenshots of the play in action. LeBron had legal guarding position facing Durant and beat Durant to the spot. He is allowed to still move laterally to his left and his right foot can still slide.
Most notably, look at where LeBron gets to in picture 6. Look where LeBron's left leg (his outside leg) is planted (use the dotted semicircle as a frame of reference).
Now, in pictures 7 and 8, look at the angle Durant takes and look at where Durant's lead leg (right leg) goes and use the same semi-cirlce as a reference. Durant's goes right into LeBron's torso. Durant's lead leg in inside LeBron's outside leg.
It's not like Durant clipped LeBron on the outside of LeBron's left side. He he LeBron right in his center.
Even more absurd, look how far away LeBron was from the restricted area. How was that even reviewed?
on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
Yes almost 5 seconds I think, plenty of time for them to score. Not sure if they had a timeout left though.
They did have a timeout, the announcers noted Kerr told them to call immediate TO whether Hill made or missed the 2nd (assuming GS got the rebound)
RE: RE: You guys really think he was facing Durant Â
and not sideways and slipping underneath with his right foot sliding the entire time? Very strange how a group of people see this so differently.
Here are screenshots of the play in action. LeBron had legal guarding position facing Durant and beat Durant to the spot. He is allowed to still move laterally to his left and his right foot can still slide.
Most notably, look at where LeBron gets to in picture 6. Look where LeBron's left leg (his outside leg) is planted (use the dotted semicircle as a frame of reference).
Now, in pictures 7 and 8, look at the angle Durant takes and look at where Durant's lead leg (right leg) goes and use the same semi-cirlce as a reference. Durant's goes right into LeBron's torso. Durant's lead leg in inside LeBron's outside leg.
It's not like Durant clipped LeBron on the outside of LeBron's left side. He he LeBron right in his center.
Even more absurd, look how far away LeBron was from the restricted area. How was that even reviewed?
I noted the restricted area earlier, it doesn’t matter. You can just step in front of someone and slide under them. The restricted area is irrelevant to this argument.
one way or another. And the restricted area is relevant because it’s the whole reason they reviewed it in the first place. Should not have been reviewed and subsequently reversed in my opinion.
That same play happens 100 times, I bet the refs call it a charge 50 times and a block 50 times. It's that close. Steve Javie is one of the best refs in league history, and he said on the air that it was a charge. To reverse it on review in that situation is ridiculous. And if that game is played in Cleveland instead of Golden State, ya think they're reversing a call like that on Lebron James? If that happened to the Knicks in a Finals game we'd bitch about it for 100 years.
this doesn't include Lebron stripping KD and getting whistled for a reach, Hill blocking KD in OT and getting called for the shooting foul, or Klay coming in from out of bounds and hitting the 3 before setting both feet in bounds prior to catching the ball.
The Cavs didn't get this 50/50 call. Nor did they get the 70/30 or 80/20 calls. Lebron was playing against the warriors, the refs AND even his own teammates...
not in determining whether it was a block or charge, but because only a question of whether LeBron was in the restricted area could the refs review the play. That he was so far outside of the restricted area means that the play shouldn't have been reviewed.
As to the play, I don't see how LeBron slid under Durant. He moved laterally and established himself in Durant's path before Durant, thereby beating Durant to the spot. In that case, the contact was initiated by Durant. That LeBron's right leg was still sliding is irrelevant as well.
4 on. Lebron isn't even completely facing Durant, he's at an angle, and he slides under him once Durant leaves the floor.
They reversed the call because it is clearly not a charge.
I hate that it was reversed, but Lebron was never set, nor was he in a position that Durant went to. Durant went to the left of him (from our view)
I disagree. It looks to me that LeBron's and Durant's shoulders are parallel, especially considering the wide angle Durant comes in from and then Durant goes into the center of LeBron's body, with Durant's leg clearly inside of LeBron's.
It's a bang-bang play, a close call, and I have no idea how it was reviewed, let alone reversed.
IMO the call was 50-50, as some of you are saying Â
I disagree. It looks to me that LeBron's and Durant's shoulders are parallel, especially considering the wide angle Durant comes in from and then Durant goes into the center of LeBron's body, with Durant's leg clearly inside of LeBron's.
It's a bang-bang play, a close call, and I have no idea how it was reviewed, let alone reversed.
I am looking at the last two pics you showed. My evidence is that is body and right leg are moving as contact occurs is pretty easy.
In the 2nd to last picture, you can see the back of James' Jersey cleary. Name and number. His right leg is exteded out. Now in the last picture you can barely see the back of his jersey where it clearly twisted from the prior frame.
The only thing that was in the same place from the two frames is the left foot. He clearly moves from the last two stills and since is Durant is going up and James is sliding/twisting/moving or whatever - it makes it a block. You cant move side to side once the guy starts his shooting motion. Lebron did.
The VP of referees said that the block call was the right one.
LeBron twists is because his weight is on his planted left leg and so when Durant hits him, LeBron will naturally rotate around that axis.
Again, LeBron is allowed to move laterally so long as he beats Durant to the spot and establishes legal guarding position before Durant starts his upward motion.
I typically hate how block-charges are officiated because of how players use gather steps and how many players hunt for charges.
In this case, I thought it was a charge, but it could have gone either way. I just can't believe they reviewed it under false pretenses and then changed such a close call.
is the worst kind of athlete. He should have been a star. Can be a great 3 point shooter with the athleticism of a great dunker. It just seemed like he never cared (which is a label I hate to put on athletes because we can't really tell from watching on TV).
This is going to be a sweep.
I've been ripping JR since he shot 29% from the field in a fucking Â
stretch where JR averaged 22 PPG for a good 2 weeks and sealed the 6th man award. He would bully small defenders to get to the rim in addition to draining 3s and keeping up on D. WTF is this now...
RE: RE: Amazing BBI loved JR when he was a Knick Â
Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
Nah, he was never a smart player here.
he was the 2nd best player on a 54 win team, he abaolutely had a stretch where hr was playing great basketball...
Okay, but he had mental lapses, did stupid things, was out partying through all hours of the night during the playoffs and then didn’t live up to his contract here. And that 54 win season which everyone loves to discuss, was followed up with a 37-45 record and NYK hasn’t made the playoffs since.
can we just agree to disagree and all go back to ripping jr smith? please
All the more reason why it shouldn't be overturned, if all of us here can't come to a conclusion then it's inconclusive!
But yes, JR is an idiot and I'm not really sure why they continue to put up with him. There was a time when he still contributed enough on the court to make it worth the bonehead plays. He has not been worth the trouble the last two years. They need to cut his minutes.
Looney, Bell, and Curry cannot guard him and he is shooting well enough where he can get to the line, lane, and make 3s. I cant believe how many uncontested layups and dunks he had yesterday.
Nick Wright, world's biggest LeBron fan, had pointed out that LeBron still had excellent efficiency and put up huge numbers with Iguodala guarding him as well.
I can "forgive" Hill for missing the FT. Players miss free throws all the time. Sometimes they just don't go in. Not knowing the score at that moment is beyond unforgivable.
Plus, you can read his lips saying to LeBron "I thought we were up" so to now backtrack makes no sense.
Also, if he thought it was tied with 4.7 seconds left, why would he dribble it back to the scorer's table?
Nick Wright, world's biggest LeBron fan, had pointed out that LeBron still had excellent efficiency and put up huge numbers with Iguodala guarding him as well.
You dont stop Lebron. But what Iggy does is defend better than Looney and Bell - who are basically defenseless out there. Plus Iggy is a better offensive option. Another passer/slasher/ocassional shooter. Bell and Looney are scrap pile pickers. Where as Iggy is a vital cog in their offense as well.
last night was probably the best chance for the Cavs to make it a series.
Eh I wouldn't say that. The Warriors often get blown out in Cleveland. It most likely will only happen once, but could definitely happen twice.
They're also lucky Klay Thompson's injury wasn't more serious, and that luck may not hold.
GS is always good for a game where Curry makes 3-5 silly passes to the other team, Green gets fouled/thrown out, Klay cant hit the backside of the barn - and in that game Durant goes off and they lose by 12. Ill give that one in game 3. Then they come back and win the next 2.
that people now expect LeBron to score 45 a night while leading his team in assists because now if he scores in the 25-30 range, which can still be a great night, he will get even more blame.
51/8/8 on 19-32 shooting. I'm not sure how he will be able to top that, especially as the Warriors make adjustments throughout the series and Iguodala comes back (which will help the Warriors on both ends). When that isn't enough for Cleveland to win, it's a sad state of affairs for fans watching the Finals hoping for a good series.
The Cavs biggest problem, and the reason they aren't a legitimate threat to the Warriors, is that they don't have any two-way players. LeBron can't exert the same energy on defense that he used to while carrying the offense.
Meanwhile, Golden State has superlative defenders in Draymond and Iguodala who keep the ball moving on offense, with good-to-great defenders in Klay and Durant who are also excellent offensive players.
LeBron is surrounded by 3-and-no-D guys and in many games, they have become "no-3-and-no-D" players. LeBron the GM is partially at fault, but these guys have to knock down their 3's at above-average clips to give them a chance in the series.
The Cavs biggest problem, and the reason they aren't a legitimate threat to the Warriors, is that they don't have any two-way players. LeBron can't exert the same energy on defense that he used to while carrying the offense.
Meanwhile, Golden State has superlative defenders in Draymond and Iguodala who keep the ball moving on offense, with good-to-great defenders in Klay and Durant who are also excellent offensive players.
LeBron is surrounded by 3-and-no-D guys and in many games, they have become "no-3-and-no-D" players. LeBron the GM is partially at fault, but these guys have to knock down their 3's at above-average clips to give them a chance in the series.
Derrick Rose this postseason proved he wasnt garbage. And Crowder was a defender and shooter he could rely on.
The problem is Lebron built a team he thought he could dominate with. A big who can rebound and defend on perimeter. He took all shooters (Smith, Korver, Love, Clarkson, Hill, etc...) all guy who open the floor for him to dominate. So lebron goes and gets 40-50, but these guys touch the ball every once in awhile. You cant get rhythm or flow that way. Look at the Warrios - everyone touches the ball almost if not every possession. Lebron, harden, Westbrook and Wall live in ISO world. I am not saying they are slefish but they hold the ball for the majority of the shotclock and either shoot it or pass it to the open guy. The problem is only 2, maybe 3 guys touch the ball on a possession. So yes they get assists, but rarely a hockey assist.
Rose can still score and get his own shot, which NO guard on cleveland can do. Rose proved to be a capable scorer for the Knicks last year and in the playoffs for Minny. He is not a guy you want starting or playing 30 minutes. but hes a guy who can give Lebron a break on offense.
this year than Smith/TT. With Clarkson and Hill making 30 million more to that total... Rose/Crwoder and 50 million to spend is infintely better than those 4 and it aint even close.
pushed his side kick, who was to give him a break on offense, want a trade this offseason. The Cavs roster complexion is because of 1 man alone. I dont feel sorry for when they dont perform cause he is the one who wanted them.
pushed his side kick, who was to give him a break on offense, want a trade this offseason. The Cavs roster complexion is because of 1 man alone. I dont feel sorry for when they dont perform cause he is the one who wanted them.
I LOLed when LBJ said "my players" before quickly correcting himself & saying "my teammates".
and using a 5-game sample where he shot 70% from 3 despite a career average of 29.6% from 3 doesn't change that. Even during that streak, his defense was his typical level of atrocious disinterest just as it was with the Knicks.
The Cavs don't have any two-way players. Blame LeBron, blame the front-office, blame whomever, but it doesn't change the reality that they don't have defensive talent. Neither Rose nor Kyrie would have changed that.
and using a 5-game sample where he shot 70% from 3 despite a career average of 29.6% from 3 doesn't change that. Even during that streak, his defense was his typical level of atrocious disinterest just as it was with the Knicks.
The Cavs don't have any two-way players. Blame LeBron, blame the front-office, blame whomever, but it doesn't change the reality that they don't have defensive talent. Neither Rose nor Kyrie would have changed that.
Well people complain when Lebron doesnt have this or doesnt have that. He was responsible for the roster construction. You said he has no one else that can create. rose can create. You said he doesnt have enough defensive help. Crowder helped that. You said he doesnt have enough help... Kyrie hels that.
No one is saying that Rose or Crowder are great players - they arent. But he filled his team with the same type of players. There is absolutely zero balance on the team.
Due to ISO world, you find the weakest defender or biggest mismatch and exploit it. Its all about weakside/rebounding.
We have heard how great George Hill is a defender, well guess who gave up the most points on 1 on 1 basis yesterday? George Hill. Why? Durant would screen him to get the switch, and get the mismatch.
If you are looking at individual defensive stats in the world of ISO ball, you are going to be deceived. Curry gives up a shit load of points as well. But guarding Lebron will do that to a player.
They should have done anything possible to move them during the fire sale
Replace JR with a Courtney Lee type
Replace Thompson with a KOQ type and the Cavs would be a better team in the current scenario .
Also Love should have been dealt also.
LeBron can run the whole show if he gets a bunch of Jeff Greens on his team that buy in and play smart ball
Sorry to say this by KOQ sucks donkey ball.
As does Courtney Lee.
Lebron will never get a roster of role players that he wants because if you get a ball dominant player (ala Rose) he loses touches and he rarely takes a back seat.
If you get shooters (ala Lee, Korver, Smith, etc...) you run the risk of them going cold due to the fact they arent really part of the offenses.
If you get rid of Love and plug in KOQs of the world - you give up floor spacing and put more defenders in the lane - which makes Lebrons game less effective.
GS has won not only because they have great players, but their system is the best in the NBA. Boston has a good system as well - just not the scorers to run it.
They should have done anything possible to move them during the fire sale
Replace JR with a Courtney Lee type
Replace Thompson with a KOQ type and the Cavs would be a better team in the current scenario .
Also Love should have been dealt also.
LeBron can run the whole show if he gets a bunch of Jeff Greens on his team that buy in and play smart ball
Sorry to say this by KOQ sucks donkey ball.
As does Courtney Lee.
Lebron will never get a roster of role players that he wants because if you get a ball dominant player (ala Rose) he loses touches and he rarely takes a back seat.
If you get shooters (ala Lee, Korver, Smith, etc...) you run the risk of them going cold due to the fact they arent really part of the offenses.
If you get rid of Love and plug in KOQs of the world - you give up floor spacing and put more defenders in the lane - which makes Lebrons game less effective.
GS has won not only because they have great players, but their system is the best in the NBA. Boston has a good system as well - just not the scorers to run it.
Very valid points, I do think LeBrons best team would be a bunch of shooters like he had in Miami , along with a reall good 2 way guy like Wade.
Bosh was so much more comfortable in his reduced LeBron Pf role then Love is.
I agree KOQ and Lee both suck though, but they both atleast have some balls and high Energy brains compared to JR amen TT
I think Courtney Lee would play really well with LeBron and really get on LBJs brain waves as an elite brain on the court
I’ve watched this play probably 50 times and I still can’t say with certainty one way or another. To overturn that is absurd.
So can they review a 3point on the line and then also view if there was a foul committed? Replay review has completely gotten out of control.
And for the people calling for Kyle O’Quinn instead of Thompson are way off base. KOQ would be played off the court. The guy hasn’t even been able to start for awful Knicks teams.
this is the NBA's reaction to the block/call and not pissing off the Cavs anymore. Love was a good 8 feet on the court as the incident happened.
So Amare and Ewing - you didnt play with Lebron so the rules only apply to you.
I think its the right call. They have relaxed the rules in recent years. With that said, the Amare/ Diaw suspensions were so absurd. They took 1 step on the court and didn't do anything. This was after their star point guard got completely decked and cheap shotted.
They seem to switch too easily, as if they're quite okay with Curry trying to cover LeBron. Sometimes, when Durant was guarding LeBron, he would block the screener, and simply give up easy angles to the basket. I don't know if this is what Kerr wants them to do, or they're not following his instructions properly.
Thought Cleveland did well for themselves in game 1 Â
Don't think they can hold up though in a 7 game series for the same reason they couldn't hold up in 5 QTR game 1.
Warriors can simply roll out more/better players than the Cavs so over an extended period of time that advantage only grows.
Love watching Lebron play though...he is so damn strong its scary. Really thought Curry did as good a job on defending Lebron than anyone I have seen during these playoffs...and he only got 51pts!
is as fun to watch as when Steph Curry starts cooking with those long-range threes-- particularly when he's shooting off the dribble. I'm glad we still get to see that once in a while. Ever since Durant came aboard, those moments have been less frequent. It's incredible to watch when he's nailing them.
He was still the second best player on the floor. LeBron comtinued to dominate the game, but the Cavs just cannot match the Warriors on balance, let alone when the Warriors have everyone playing well.
is as fun to watch as when Steph Curry starts cooking with those long-range threes-- particularly when he's shooting off the dribble. I'm glad we still get to see that once in a while. Ever since Durant came aboard, those moments have been less frequent. It's incredible to watch when he's nailing them.
He was still the second best player on the floor. LeBron comtinued to dominate the game, but the Cavs just cannot match the Warriors on balance, let alone when the Warriors have everyone playing well.
LBJ had 29 last night & Cleveland needed him to score like 20 more. He's working with nothing.
He's already passed the last 4, Barry, Erving, Baylor, and West. So....
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
James
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
There are always going to be debates, but he is getting close. By the time his careeer has ended he is going to be in rare air. He is sitting at the dinner table at players who changed the game.
He's already passed the last 4, Barry, Erving, Baylor, and West. So....
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
James
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
There are always going to be debates, but he is getting close. By the time his career has ended he is going to be in rare air. He is sitting at the dinner table at players who changed the game.
It's interesting how the Doctor gets downplayed as time passes. His '83 Sixer team was incredible and breezed through the playoffs with only one loss. And they destroyed the Lakers in the finals with Kareem, Magic, Nixon, Worthy, etc in 4 straight.
Julius was a significantly better two way player than Curry and was the bridge to Bird, Magic and Jordan. He made a league - the ABA - relevant. And he was an artist that made the dunk cool. His impact on the league was profound.
I also think Wade has been a better two way player and was much better in the Finals than Curry has been. He's very underrated, too.
And let me add this - Isiah Thomas was brilliant, every bit the ball handler that Curry is praised for. Tremendously underrated. Major jerk off? Yes. But he played in a big man era during the Camelot period of the NBA. And was THE cog in that Pistons dynasty. And was going to the basket when you had to be fearless to succeed.
will eclipse Wade in terms of rings but I also see it hard for him to surpass Wade.
Just steph and klay were pretty clear first/second round outs before Draymond took off. Remember there were large questions about Stephs ability as a true point and a defender before draymond took on those roles. If not for him I think GS tops out as a slightly better version than the Blazers.
Just steph and klay were pretty clear first/second round outs before Draymond took off. Remember there were large questions about Stephs ability as a true point and a defender before draymond took on those roles. If not for him I think GS tops out as a slightly better version than the Blazers.
Draymond and the signing of Iguadala. Two guys who are ultimate team guys and not desperate for shot attempts.
Plus, Thompson has morphed into a defensive stalwart. So there you have three guys who transformed the team defensively.
Just steph and klay were pretty clear first/second round outs before Draymond took off. Remember there were large questions about Stephs ability as a true point and a defender before draymond took on those roles. If not for him I think GS tops out as a slightly better version than the Blazers.
Draymond and the signing of Iguadala. Two guys who are ultimate team guys and not desperate for shot attempts.
Plus, Thompson has morphed into a defensive stalwart. So there you have three guys who transformed the team defensively.
then throw in Shawn Livingston who would be the starting PG on a number of teams. Can't hit a 3 to save his life, but might be the best mid-range shooting PG I've seen. The Warriors team is loaded.
or is it a sweep? I believe this is their best chance. Lebron raises up for 45-12-11. We get the media stigma that he is the greatest ever for winning a game. JR Smith buries 6 threes and becomes in the running for the true MVP of the series haha.
Curry and Klay cant piss in the ocean, but Durant has a pretty big game
i dont understand why he has been out of the lineup--- he is a solid offensive player-- and no worse on defense than the others.
there is a clear issue with some young guys and system players playing with lebron-- this is not debateable and one of the sites did a piece on how most guys play worse than projected.
the episode at the end of game 1 reflects that. guys dont play or shoot freely- the fact that lue benched those guys who he would eventually need, speaks to him just riding the LBJ coattails to another finals.
clarkson is not a stud, but hes a solid 6mth man NBA player- a poor mans lou williams-- and he is playing like a homeless mans marshon brooks... that is confidence not ability.
if they want to have a chance they should be working on giving guys like clarkson and hood confidence to perform.
is very hard. Its not that Lebron is selfish because he isnt. But its tough getting into a flow and a rhythm when you touch the ball once every 3-4 plays.
"You can tell," Warriors rookie Jordan Bell says. "Last game, Jordan Clarkson had came in. I think he missed like two shots, and I looked up—he was out of the game. I was like, 'Damn, he got pulled already, just for missing two shots?' I guess when you play with LeBron, all you have to do is just catch and shoot. If you're not doing that well, I guess you got to come out."
Being a catch and shoot player may seem ideal but to me it's not. And a lot of players are becoming that in the NBA due to the massive ISO movement going on.
I really wish the NBA instituted a new 5 second possession on the ball handler outside the 3 point line. There is nothing worse seeing Lebron, Hatden, Paul, Wall, Westbrook etc.... just dribbling it between thier legs and crossing over for 15 seconds before they drive or shoot a 3.
"You can tell," Warriors rookie Jordan Bell says. "Last game, Jordan Clarkson had came in. I think he missed like two shots, and I looked up—he was out of the game. I was like, 'Damn, he got pulled already, just for missing two shots?' I guess when you play with LeBron, all you have to do is just catch and shoot. If you're not doing that well, I guess you got to come out."
Being a catch and shoot player may seem ideal but to me it's not. And a lot of players are becoming that in the NBA due to the massive ISO movement going on.
I really wish the NBA instituted a new 5 second possession on the ball handler outside the 3 point line. There is nothing worse seeing Lebron, Hatden, Paul, Wall, Westbrook etc.... just dribbling it between thier legs and crossing over for 15 seconds before they drive or shoot a 3.
Some of it is based on style, some of its based on talent. Lebrons teams passed the ball more when he had Kyrie/Wade/Bosh.
Likewise, the Warriors were DEAD LAST in passes per game before Draymond broke out. Then they creeped into the top 10 the year they won the first championship due to Green/Kerr. And once KD came they rocketed to #1.
I wouldn't expect Lebrons teammates to touch the ball once every 3/4 possessions if they were KD and Klay instead of Jeff Green and George Hill.
because he isn't very good at many basketball related activities. If he's not hitting shots he's a liability on defense and is prone to taking bad shots. A least Korver can provide floor spacing (and despite his limitations does try on defense).
is very hard. Its not that Lebron is selfish because he isnt. But its tough getting into a flow and a rhythm when you touch the ball once every 3-4 plays.
exactly- hes not a selfish player--- but its not a flowing offense where players are moving, having their number called, and motion creates shots---
guys are standing and watching and then getting a look- its just not as easy as it looks on TV when you know the narrative is you let lebron down every time you miss
lebron is nothing like westbrook but the cavs offense many times is guys standing around for lebron like guys doing that for westbrook--- its no wonder Melo shot like crap this year.
or is it a sweep? I believe this is their best chance. Lebron raises up for 45-12-11. We get the media stigma that he is the greatest ever for winning a game. JR Smith buries 6 threes and becomes in the running for the true MVP of the series haha.
Curry and Klay cant piss in the ocean, but Durant has a pretty big game
pointless to even watch. Glad I didnt waste my time watching the first 40 minutes or so
missed a good game
I dont find any of the games enjoyable when you know who is going to win in the end. The series was over well before it started. I turn on each game with about 6 minutes to go to see if the final minutes are entertaining. To me there is nothing more worthless than the first 3 quarters of an NBA game. Teams come back down double digits all the time, its worth watching at the end.
At least the conference finals were entertaining. Rest of the playoffs have been an unmitigated disaster.
I dont know what the solution is for the NBA. But unless LeBron leaves to go elsewhere, no one has a chance to beat this golden state team anytime soon because Kevin Durant is a bitch. Great player but always will be a bitch for leaving a team that only lost to the 73 win warriors because he gagged in the big moment.
It's not his job to make the NBA entertaining, but I will always have a problem with a guy who left a team that only lost because he gagged to go to the team that beat him.
The talent is great. It's just not enjoyable for me anymore to watch for long stretches. I love LeBron's greatness. I enjoy watching him try to take a team full of 6th men types to a title.
Unless you're a Warriors fan, watching this super team just isn't particularly enjoyable, maybe because outside of Klay the team is filled with unlikable superstars
RE: the people who say oh we knew the warriors were going to win Â
So when lebron choked against Dallas, he should be disqualified as well then right. Because Curry’s was one game, lebron was all series.
That was a blemish for sure. But LBJ has certainly done enough since to offset most of that.
And can we agree that LBJ is in a different stratosphere as a player than Curry? He’s shouldered significantly more responsibility than Curry ever can.
So when lebron choked against Dallas, he should be disqualified as well then right. Because Curry’s was one game, lebron was all series.
That was a blemish for sure. But LBJ has certainly done enough since to offset most of that.
And can we agree that LBJ is in a different stratosphere as a player than Curry? He’s shouldered significantly more responsibility than Curry ever can.
So Curry's one bad game has offset the last 4 years?
but he does have some big duds in the Finals over the past few years. He;'s shooting 38% this year. Last year he played well but was outshined entirely by KD. The year the Cavs won he averaged more TOs than assists and shot 40%.
Maybe he deserved Finals MVP during his first run but he averaged less points per game than he did during the season playing 43 minutes a game (and Iggy truly played well on both ends that year). It is somewhat telling Steph has never elevated his game during the Finals nor carried his team. And he's basically the weak link thats attacked on defense consistently. For that reason its going to be hard for me to put him ahead of the likes of Kobe, Wade etc. especially if he's going to have the benefit of KD/Klay/Dray for the rest of his career.
but he does have some big duds in the Finals over the past few years. He;'s shooting 38% this year. Last year he played well but was outshined entirely by KD. The year the Cavs won he averaged more TOs than assists and shot 40%.
Maybe he deserved Finals MVP during his first run but he averaged less points per game than he did during the season playing 43 minutes a game (and Iggy truly played well on both ends that year). It is somewhat telling Steph has never elevated his game during the Finals nor carried his team. And he's basically the weak link thats attacked on defense consistently. For that reason its going to be hard for me to put him ahead of the likes of Kobe, Wade etc. especially if he's going to have the benefit of KD/Klay/Dray for the rest of his career.
You beat me to it. Curry has not been the best player for his team, or the other team for that matter, in any of the four finals he’s played. Assuming Durant grabs another MVP in this series, that will be 3 wins for Golden State and no MVPs for Curry. That is an albatross. And one that will weigh negatively on any attempt to put him in any top 10-15 all-time conversation.
Steph wasn't the best Warrior in the 2015 Finals? Â
but he does have some big duds in the Finals over the past few years. He;'s shooting 38% this year. Last year he played well but was outshined entirely by KD. The year the Cavs won he averaged more TOs than assists and shot 40%.
Maybe he deserved Finals MVP during his first run but he averaged less points per game than he did during the season playing 43 minutes a game (and Iggy truly played well on both ends that year). It is somewhat telling Steph has never elevated his game during the Finals nor carried his team. And he's basically the weak link thats attacked on defense consistently. For that reason its going to be hard for me to put him ahead of the likes of Kobe, Wade etc. especially if he's going to have the benefit of KD/Klay/Dray for the rest of his career.
Curry has outplayed Durant in 2 of the 3 games so far. With one more big game - he is still going to get the MVP of the finals.
RE: Steph wasn't the best Warrior in the 2015 Finals? Â
'16 was closer between him & Draymond, but I'd take Curry that year.
'17 was obviously Durant.
GS could no doubt couldn't have won without curry. But they also couldn't have won without Iggy. You can use the #2/3 options as an excuse (e.g. Kobe couldn't have won without Shaq/Pau, Bron wouldn't have won without Wade/kyrie).
But curry basically relied on their 4th option. And from starters 1 through 5 I can't remember a team as deep as any of GS's teams anytime recently.
GS never really needed to rely on Curry as a playmaker. He is attacked on defense. And he'll bring a good offensive game ever other game in the Finals but never to the levels he reaches in the regular season. That is unlike the cream of the top, the MJs, Kobes, lebrons and Wades of the world.
but he does have some big duds in the Finals over the past few years. He;'s shooting 38% this year. Last year he played well but was outshined entirely by KD. The year the Cavs won he averaged more TOs than assists and shot 40%.
Maybe he deserved Finals MVP during his first run but he averaged less points per game than he did during the season playing 43 minutes a game (and Iggy truly played well on both ends that year). It is somewhat telling Steph has never elevated his game during the Finals nor carried his team. And he's basically the weak link thats attacked on defense consistently. For that reason its going to be hard for me to put him ahead of the likes of Kobe, Wade etc. especially if he's going to have the benefit of KD/Klay/Dray for the rest of his career.
Curry has outplayed Durant in 2 of the 3 games so far. With one more big game - he is still going to get the MVP of the finals.
Steph is shooting 38% from 3. The game he scored 33 he took 26 shots. KD shot 10 of 14 that game and scored 26. So steph scored 7 more points on 12 more shots. I don't consider that outplaying.
For the series who would you say is better:
32 ppg, 10 rpg, 7 apg and nearly 2 blocks a game, playing tremendous defense. Shooting 56% (!!) and 47% from 3
Vs
24 ppg, 8 apg, 6 rpg. Shooting 39% from the field, 40% from 3, is basically the gameplan for the other team to get him switched onto bigger guys and taken advantage of (with Dray and KD providing great help defense in those situations).
Are you really confident that steph is running away with it? If Game 4 is a replica of game 3 how will steph get it? I honestly think steph needs a 40-50 point game to even have chance at it at this point...
best player this series, I actually don’t think it’s very close.
This seems pretty obvious to just about anyone I've talked to or anything I've read from experts. I basically think steph needs to be averaging 8 points MORE than KD is to have a shot, based on how great KD has been defensively and how often steph is picked on. But hes averaging 8 points less and shooting an astounding 19% worse than KD.
Curry isn't winning MVP of this finals. What Durant did last night was truly remarkable. Without him, they lose by over 10. Durant is averaging 32/10/7 and playing good D.
I think this Finals has been very entertaining but its frustrating watching the Warriors. They are just too loaded. They have 5 of the top 7 guys in this series and a good bench. Their stars aren't really even challenged. They even kept Iguodola on ice until they needed him- its nuts.
I still can't believe the Bulls sold the Jordan Bell pick to the Warriors for 3.5mill. Reinsdorf should be ashamed of himself.
where one guy had the best game of his life vs the other who had the worst game of his.
You can argue either way. But watching both game 1 and 2, it was pretty clear that Curry was much further ahead for the MVP award (the question was whether Cuurry or James would get it). Especially after breaking a finals record. Now if Durant has another monster game over Curry, then yes Durant will get it. But if Curry is clearly the best player in their next win - he is going to get it, IMO.
RE: RE: Steph wasn't the best Warrior in the 2015 Finals? Â
'16 was closer between him & Draymond, but I'd take Curry that year.
'17 was obviously Durant.
GS could no doubt couldn't have won without curry. But they also couldn't have won without Iggy. You can use the #2/3 options as an excuse (e.g. Kobe couldn't have won without Shaq/Pau, Bron wouldn't have won without Wade/kyrie).
But curry basically relied on their 4th option. And from starters 1 through 5 I can't remember a team as deep as any of GS's teams anytime recently.
GS never really needed to rely on Curry as a playmaker. He is attacked on defense. And he'll bring a good offensive game ever other game in the Finals but never to the levels he reaches in the regular season. That is unlike the cream of the top, the MJs, Kobes, lebrons and Wades of the world.
They definitely rely on Curry as a playmaker. Maybe not as much with Durant because they can just ISO him, but they definitely do. Why do you think they constantly get 3 on 2s out of his pick and rolls? Look at all those free runs to the rim last night. It's because teams are deathly afraid of Curry and trapping him on the PNR. Their system is predicated on him. Durant is truly just the ultimate luxury and gravy on top.
where one guy had the best game of his life vs the other who had the worst game of his.
You can argue either way. But watching both game 1 and 2, it was pretty clear that Curry was much further ahead for the MVP award (the question was whether Cuurry or James would get it). Especially after breaking a finals record. Now if Durant has another monster game over Curry, then yes Durant will get it. But if Curry is clearly the best player in their next win - he is going to get it, IMO.
The only thing that keeps Lebron in this is Curry getting obliterated on defense. Last night wasn't as bad, but game 1 he was getting lit up.
Curry hasnt been the leading scorer, top playmaker, most efficient and a bad defender. He's been pretty good, but for the life of me I can;t see how he is sniffing MVP.
30% from down town in games 1-2 and now is up to 47%.
Curry was shooting 50% after two games, and now is down to 40%. One game can have huge impact on stats, but not necessarily telling the whole story.
I can't stand these players or this team but I have to tell like I see it. Durant helps cover the best player on the planet and plays good help D. Curry gets hunted and attacked on defense every chance the Cavs get. That must be taken in to consideration.
I also think the Warriors probably win game 2 even without Curry's historic performance. Without Durant last night, they had no chance of winning. Last night was an all time Finals performance from him.
30% from down town in games 1-2 and now is up to 47%.
Curry was shooting 50% after two games, and now is down to 40%. One game can have huge impact on stats, but not necessarily telling the whole story.
I can't stand these players or this team but I have to tell like I see it. Durant helps cover the best player on the planet and plays good help D. Curry gets hunted and attacked on defense every chance the Cavs get. That must be taken in to consideration.
I also think the Warriors probably win game 2 even without Curry's historic performance. Without Durant last night, they had no chance of winning. Last night was an all time Finals performance from him.
Precisely.
And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.
KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.
And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.
KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.
When judging individual defense performances - you should realize that there is so many switches it is too hard to gauge who is stopping who. Durant may start off on Durant but one high screen and then its curry, bell, looney, thompson or whoever. Durant hasnt guarded Lebron as much as it appears.
And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.
KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.
When judging individual defense performances - you should realize that there is so many switches it is too hard to gauge who is stopping who. Durant may start off on Durant but one high screen and then its curry, bell, looney, thompson or whoever. Durant hasnt guarded Lebron as much as it appears.
Right, the whole Cavs offense is based off getting Steph onto Lebron. KD and Draymond are absolutely doing an amazing job of coming to his help and rotating when lebron dishes out.
And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.
KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.
When judging individual defense performances - you should realize that there is so many switches it is too hard to gauge who is stopping who. Durant may start off on Durant but one high screen and then its curry, bell, looney, thompson or whoever. Durant hasnt guarded Lebron as much as it appears.
Right, the whole Cavs offense is based off getting Steph onto Lebron. KD and Draymond are absolutely doing an amazing job of coming to his help and rotating when lebron dishes out.
you just said durant has guarded lebron on most possessions of this series, that simply is not true...
and I like Iggy a lot. If they weren't going to give it to LeBron for carrying a Cavs team without Kyrie or Love, then it should have been Curry.
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.
I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.
Here is my point:
Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.
Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.
I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.
Also the reason why he was so open is that Lebron guarded him, and Lebron played free safety more that series than man to man. They dared him to shoot and score.
and I like Iggy a lot. If they weren't going to give it to LeBron for carrying a Cavs team without Kyrie or Love, then it should have been Curry.
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.
I can totally see the argument for CUrry winning MVP that year. But he didn't elevate his game, take it to a higher level (and didnt even have to do much on defense guarding Delly instead of Kyrie). Curry never reaches the heights of his regular season MVP years in the playoffs. His game consistently drops down a level or two come playoff time.
but there's just no juice. With Curry and Klay spacing out the floor, all three of those guys are in incredibly advantageous situations. The defense is spread thin and can't throw doubles.
Durant should get a ton of credit for hitting all the shots he did, as he's among the best scorers in the history of the league. But there's no "if I have a bad game, we lose" worry.
Again, I don't blame Durant for going to Golden State. I think it made the most sense for his life. It just ruined the narrative juice and excitement as a fan of not only watching Durant, but watching the Warriors and Curry.
I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.
Here is my point:
Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.
Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.
I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
because you made a point which was clearly wrong...
you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...
the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...
you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair
I can totally see the argument for CUrry winning MVP that year. But he didn't elevate his game, take it to a higher level (and didnt even have to do much on defense guarding Delly instead of Kyrie). Curry never reaches the heights of his regular season MVP years in the playoffs. His game consistently drops down a level or two come playoff time. [/quote]
I think this is pretty irrelevant. If the award is for MVP of the finals, then it's for Most Valuable, however you define it (best, most irreplaceable), and not "best relative to their regular season performance). If it had to go to a Warrior, then what does it matter whether Curry was better in the Finals than he was in the regular season when he won MVP? He was still the Warrior that made that historic offense go. Also, his Finals performance was a lot better than he gets credit for. One bad shooting night has colored the perception of what he did. Outside of a terrible Game 2 performance, he shot 23/50 from 3 with Cleveland trying to chase him off the 3-point line! That is insane.
Everyone on the Cavs was hyper-aware where Curry was on the floor at all times and he spread out the Cavs defense unlike any player in NBA history. That's what the biggest impact was for the Warriors that series.
guarded Lebron on every possession. Now youre outright making up what i said to bolster your point.
But the thing is.... KD isnt guarding Lebron on many, if not most possessions like you claim.
And then what is Curry doing on D then? The only reason the Cavs have a shot is because Steph Curry is atrocious as he is on that end of the floor. Steph brings it on offense 2/3 games and is picked one each game defensively.
KD has brought it on both ends, every game of the series.
Obviously they all help each other out, space the floor and keep the ball moving once they beat penetration. Stephs impact on offense is beyond his subpar numbers for sure. But KDs impact is also beyond his outrageously efficient numbers, on both ends, all the same.
I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.
Here is my point:
Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.
Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.
I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
because you made a point which was clearly wrong...
you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...
the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...
you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair
Yes their scheme is switch everything- except with Curry. They didn't want him switching onto Harden and now don't want him switching onto Lebron. The Cavs have just forced that action.
While that is their scheme, Durant has primarily started on Lebron. He definitely has guarded Lebron the most in this series.
While Durant helps them defensively, Curry gets attacked and hurts them. Not sure how that point can be argued.
Also the reason why he was so open is that Lebron guarded him, and Lebron played free safety more that series than man to man. They dared him to shoot and score.
LeBron was carrying a roster of Dellavedova, JR Smith/Shumpert, Tristan Thompson, and Timofey Mozgov in that series. No one can carry that offensive and chase a bad 3-point shooter around the perimeter.
The best chance Cleveland had to win the series on defense was for LeBron to hang back and sag off of a mediocre 3-point shooter in Iguodala so that he can play free safety make stops inside when the Warriors start running downhill due to the gravity created by Steph and Klay.
Iggy is a career 33% shooter from 3. The Cavs wanted him to be the one to shoot, instead of Curry or Klay, or instead of the Warriors getting easy lanes to slam it home.
Iggy happened to hit those open shots. I don't think it was anything special on Iguodala's part.
I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.
Here is my point:
Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.
Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.
I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
because you made a point which was clearly wrong...
you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...
the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...
you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair
Yes their scheme is switch everything- except with Curry. They didn't want him switching onto Harden and now don't want him switching onto Lebron. The Cavs have just forced that action.
While that is their scheme, Durant has primarily started on Lebron. He definitely has guarded Lebron the most in this series.
While Durant helps them defensively, Curry gets attacked and hurts them. Not sure how that point can be argued.
it doesnt matter who starts on le ron because no matter what they are switxhing...
cavs try to get lebron on curry or the center that is iut there...
i saw klay and draymond on lebron a lot last night as well...
each and every year before KD came. They don't win without Curry, even if he did skate free without going against Conley, Holiday a few games, Beverley and Kyrie that year.
Like I said I think Steph will end up top 20 all time. But the reason I can't see him passing the likes of Wade or Kobe is his lack of outright dominance in a finals series outside the loss against Cleveland. And he's still only what 29/30? So he has time to rewrite this.
He absolutely transformed the offensive game of the NBA. I just don't see him outright dominating each game the way the absolute best all time guards have in the playoffs/Finals.
each and every year before KD came. They don't win without Curry, even if he did skate free without going against Conley, Holiday a few games, Beverley and Kyrie that year.
Like I said I think Steph will end up top 20 all time. But the reason I can't see him passing the likes of Wade or Kobe is his lack of outright dominance in a finals series outside the loss against Cleveland. And he's still only what 29/30? So he has time to rewrite this.
He absolutely transformed the offensive game of the NBA. I just don't see him outright dominating each game the way the absolute best all time guards have in the playoffs/Finals.
What does that have to do with him not deserving MVP in 2015?
Also, without getting into the details of Curry vs. Wade vs. Kobe and their Finals performances, which I have no interest in examining, none of them have the impact on a defense without the ball as Curry. No player in NBA history draws a defense as far away from the rim and opens up the floor for the rest of his teammates like Curry. Curry opens up everything within 20 feet of the rim the way LeBron/Shaq/Wilt opened everything outside of 15 feet. Just standing on the floor 25 feet out for possession creates an advantage for his other 4 teammates.
RE: I'm rooting for Cleveland but i can't stand they way they play Â
offense (or whatever they call it). Give it to Lebron, and then find a space far away from him. I much prefer the team game.
Part of that is the Cavs lacking a second offensive playmaker who creates his own offense to keep the ball moving. But, yes, the Cleveland offense is primarily giving LeBron the ball, spacing out, and letting him create the mismatch, draw everyone to him, and then either score anyway, or kick it to the open man.
It's effective, but repetitive. To me, the most fun I've had watching teams play were the 2015/2016 Warriors and the 2014 Spurs, particularly in the NBA Finals.
Aesthetically, the ECavs are like an NFL team with a dominant running game that keeps pounding the rock for 4-5 yards and do it over and over again because defenses can't stop it, and so when they load up in the box, they then use play-action to find open receivers. There are many people on BBI who clamor for a return to those days. I found that style less aesthetically pleasing than teams who threw more.
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".
Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.
And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
RE: RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015 Â
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".
Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.
And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
in 2015 curry was not far and away the best player on the team?
RE: RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015 Â
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".
Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.
And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
Don't think he was referring to this GS team, i think he was just emphasizing that Curry deserved the MVP in '15.
RE: RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015 Â
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".
Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.
And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
What does Durant have to do with the 2015 Warriors?
There is no doubt the Warriors are loaded. They were loaded before Durant and even more so now. I point it out all the time. But pre-Durant, Curry was far and away the best player on the team. He won back-to-back league MVP awards, both overwhelmingly so, with the second being unanimous. It doesn't take anything away from the contributions and effectiveness of the other players on the team.
It takes nothing away from, say, Scottie Pippen, to say that Michael Jordan was far and away the best player on those 90s Bulls.
RE: RE: RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015 Â
What does Durant have to do with the 2015 Warriors?
There is no doubt the Warriors are loaded. They were loaded before Durant and even more so now. I point it out all the time. But pre-Durant, Curry was far and away the best player on the team. He won back-to-back league MVP awards, both overwhelmingly so, with the second being unanimous. It doesn't take anything away from the contributions and effectiveness of the other players on the team.
It takes nothing away from, say, Scottie Pippen, to say that Michael Jordan was far and away the best player on those 90s Bulls.
My bad. I misread the flow of the conversation.
I'm a big Klay Thompson guy. So while Curry was great in '15, it's the same point. He still wasn't far and away the best player on that team. You can't begin to say he shouldered the defensive responsibility that Thompson did. Thompson is a better two way player.
The Jordan compare is poor one because Jordan was a 9X first team defender and won the MVP and DPOTY in '88. He could impact the game on the defensive end.
Curry does none of that. He is a one-way player; and a player who has benefited enormously by rules that make playing perimeter defense as difficult as playing corner in the NFL. So good for him for finding his niche.
but there's a reason that Curry so overwhelmingly won the MVP and All-League awards and Klay got a single point out of 1300 potential for the MVP award (Curry got 1198 points). he got all 1310 points the following season for the MVP vote.
Also, your point about the current rules for perimeter defense are also irrelevant. Those are the rules in place. I'm not comparing Curry to anyone historically, only to his teammates in the 2015 season, so all that matters are the rules in place during that season.
Durant dodged an enormous bullet. He really blew game 1 and let Smith just move him under the basket to get that rebound. He would have been roasted for that weak effort at a critical moment of game 1 in the Finals.
But now, he's the MVP. He's very lucky Smith is a meathead.
RE: No superstar has the level of defensive talent Â
Isiah Thomas says hello. Dumars and Rodman were all time great defenders. Laimbeer wasn’t shabby either. But if you want to take elite defenders
Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper who many forget was an elite defender as well.
The defense they played against Utah is forgotten. And that’s why they were so good. They defended better than they played offense.
But let's see what happens from here on out. I think Cleveland wins tomorrow & GS closes it out @ the Oracle on Monday. If Step has big games in Game 5 & 6, he could easily win MVP.
is LeBron. No one has provided as much independent value to the court as he has this series (and I'm not even referring to relative value to his team). But that'll never happen.
is LeBron. No one has provided as much independent value to the court as he has this series (and I'm not even referring to relative value to his team). But that'll never happen.
No chance of him winning if they get swept or even if they lose in 5. I know Lebron is an all time great. But it simply cannot happen. His counting stats are nice and he has played very well, but at the end of the day its all about winning.
but that was when the award was voted on BEFORE Game 7.
So in reality, the Finals MVP was never awarded to a player on a losing team.
So it's unrealistic that LeBron would win under any circumstance where the Warriors win the series. I just think that is a poor way of evaluating performance and a poor way of creating an historical marker (not as much as how baseball MVPs are voted).
I understand the reasoning of wondering how much value LeBron could provide if his team lost. But I'm not persuaded by it for two reasons.
1. On the flip side, how valuable could any Warrior be if the team would still be favored over the Cavs and expected to win even if any single one of them broke a leg the day before the series started?
2. Also, if it were game 7, and the Cavs were up 2 with 3 seconds left and Jordan Bell threw a full court heave to miraculously win the game and the championship, I don't understand how that play would somehow mean that Durant or Curry were then more valuable than LeBron.
Like all MVP awards, I think it's meant as a way to look back on the season/series and ask who the best player was-- who contributed the most independent value to help a team win.
but that was when the award was voted on BEFORE Game 7.
So in reality, the Finals MVP was never awarded to a player on a losing team.
So it's unrealistic that LeBron would win under any circumstance where the Warriors win the series. I just think that is a poor way of evaluating performance and a poor way of creating an historical marker (not as much as how baseball MVPs are voted).
I understand the reasoning of wondering how much value LeBron could provide if his team lost. But I'm not persuaded by it for two reasons.
1. On the flip side, how valuable could any Warrior be if the team would still be favored over the Cavs and expected to win even if any single one of them broke a leg the day before the series started?
2. Also, if it were game 7, and the Cavs were up 2 with 3 seconds left and Jordan Bell threw a full court heave to miraculously win the game and the championship, I don't understand how that play would somehow mean that Durant or Curry were then more valuable than LeBron.
Like all MVP awards, I think it's meant as a way to look back on the season/series and ask who the best player was-- who contributed the most independent value to help a team win.
I think in your last example, Lebron would win it. But in a 4-5 game series - I just dont see how.
His stat line is always going to be amazing since the offense is set up for him to have it. But look at your last line "value to help a team WIN." If you dont win a game, the value you brought was that you made games more competitive.
He should be the league MVP cause he carried his team to a good regular season record (and I am still in the belief we dont see beast Lebron until playoffs anyways.)
RE: RE: No superstar has the level of defensive talent Â
Isiah Thomas says hello. Dumars and Rodman were all time great defenders. Laimbeer wasn’t shabby either. But if you want to take elite defenders
Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper who many forget was an elite defender as well.
The defense they played against Utah is forgotten. And that’s why they were so good. They defended better than they played offense.
True, but Thomas and Jordan were terrific defenders. They were key parts on that side of the ball for those great teams.
Btw, you mentioned that Curry gets a lot of steals. So does James Harden. And no one in their right, drug free mind would call him a great defender. So steals can be misleading...
RE: RE: RE: No superstar has the level of defensive talent Â
Btw, you mentioned that Curry gets a lot of steals. So does James Harden. And no one in their right, drug free mind would call him a great defender. So steals can be misleading...
Curry tries on defense, so him getting steals is probably a result of hustle. Harden reaches and goes for passes. H
Also, your point about the current rules for perimeter defense are also irrelevant. Those are the rules in place. I'm not comparing Curry to anyone historically, only to his teammates in the 2015 season, so all that matters are the rules in place during that season.
But the rule distorts the game. So I think it's important to assess situation through that lens.
Sure, I give credit to Curry for a great season. But it's always natural to wonder how a guy who isn't big, isn't physically imposing, etc can thrive to the point where he gets ultimate success in a league where bigger, stronger, faster usually rules. You don't find that curious?
championships are team awards. I think MVPs are individual awards. Players only have so much control over who they play with and individual honors should be about their individual contributions. If a player is on a bad team, it penalizes them twice in that they don't win team trophies because of their cast, and now they are shut out from individual awards because of their cast.
Baseball is the dumbest because players have far less impact on a team than in NBA or in the NFL.
he is not a good isolation defensive player because of his size. But he plays well enough in the Warriors defensive system. He reads passing lanes well and gets to spots well.
The best strategy for opponents is to try and isolate him into one-on-one basketball, but that's easier said than done. Guys like Kyrie and Isiah Thomas are fare bigger liabilities and one-dimensional players than Curry.
Players only have so much control over who they play with and individual honors should be about their individual contributions.
Lebron has full control, hence I dont feel bad when people claim he doesnt have enough. He chooses the team he wants, the players he wants, and tells management who to trade/trade for.
He basically called out management to sign JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. He basically said Thomas was not wanted.
Now Kyrie is different because it generally seemed to catch Lebron off guard, but we dont know what happened behind the scene.
Players only have so much control over who they play with and individual honors should be about their individual contributions.
Lebron has full control, hence I dont feel bad when people claim he doesnt have enough. He chooses the team he wants, the players he wants, and tells management who to trade/trade for.
He basically called out management to sign JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. He basically said Thomas was not wanted.
Now Kyrie is different because it generally seemed to catch Lebron off guard, but we dont know what happened behind the scene.
Agree with your points on MVP/Finals MVP.
But judging Lebron as a basketball player I ignore what he does in terms of getting teammates. I don't think Lebron the "GM" should be factored in when analyzing Lebron the player. Like I don't consider Isiah Thomas as an exec weighs down on his playing career. I guess prime example would be Vlade Divac lol.
All I've learned is that no basketball player can win with a crappy team. Especially against the greatest team probably (likely) ever. Shit, Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs when his teammates were that bad.
But judging Lebron as a basketball player I ignore what he does in terms of getting teammates. I don't think Lebron the "GM" should be factored in when analyzing Lebron the player. Like I don't consider Isiah Thomas as an exec weighs down on his playing career. I guess prime example would be Vlade Divac lol.
All I've learned is that no basketball player can win with a crappy team. Especially against the greatest team probably (likely) ever. Shit, Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs when his teammates were that bad.
I can separate Lebron the player from GM very easily. My point is I dont feel sorry for Lebron when hedoesnt win cause his teammatesarent good enough - because he is the one who is choosing who to play. And him losing continuously in the finals only hurts the GOAT arguemnt - not where he ranks compared to any other player not named Jordan. He is number 2 on my list and probably will stay there for a very long time.
The one good thing Krause and Reinsdorf did was manage the Bulls with very limited input from the players. Phil Jackson said out of the 7 PFs on their list to come to the team when Jordan came back, Rodman was last. But when they went to him management went to MJ and Pippen for approval, and they agreed. But he wasnt their first choice.
I agree Lebron as #2 to Kobe and I think the only way he could really ignite the debate amongst ALL nba fans is if he is even close to MJ in the rings category.
I whole-heartedly agree that rings as a whole is a team award rather than an individual award. But MJ 3-peating twice seems like an unrepeatable accomplishment (maybe the Warriors can replicate but MJ didn't even have as much talent as Steph/KD does now).
I'm just tired of all the Lakers fans who just spout "ringz"in any Kobe vs Lebron argument. It seems even Celtics fans for the most part back Lebrons status on the Mt Rushmore of basketball.
of how much control LeBron had in personnel (sometimes it's overblown, sometimes it's under-reported), there is a still a limit to what he or any full-time GM is able to do for a team at given points in time. There is still a lot of luck involved: drafting players who turn into superstars, players contracts coming up just in time for salary cap jumps, free agents wanting to play in certain places, injuries. The list is endless.
So regardless of how much input he has, there are still realities as to what the teams can look like. It's not liek LeBron ever had access to Steph, Klay, Dray, or Durant, for example.
At the end of the day, the teams are who they are when the ball is tipped. And so, to me, the MVP, is the one who most helped his team win in the "win share" sense.
Please end this awful series tonight. My only hope is that Durant goes off in the second half and keeps Curry from winning Finals MVP. That would amuse me.
East is just so poor. Tend to think Boston had the goods to push a series with the Dubs to 6 games.
Regardless, all the praise to the Dubs. Great accomplishment getting 3 out of 4. Think they have at least thrown their hat into a discussion of all-time best teams.
to spare us from watching this team roll to two or three more championships in a row. Unless Lebron goes to Houston or something. I don't think Lebron to Philly makes them good enough to win a championship. Does LA have enough money to sign George, Lebron and someone else too? Even if they do, I don't know if that team would even be good enough. Depends on who else they added.
Let GS win 12 in a row for all I care. Fuck Boston.
Hope LeBron does not go to Boston. Much more fun team to root for as currently constructed without him. Think Celts might lose Kyrie to the NYK in 2019 though.
This is without Embiid too. I think they got a great shot at advancing to the Finals.
Only one spot behind the Knicks in the lottery and close to the same odds at number as the Knicks. They smartly rebuilt while the Knicks continue to spin the wheel.
Going for a 6 game win streak. Lot of young players!!! Their going in right direction. And when Bryce or machado come next year...
How he uses towns is absolutely fireable. Absolutely clueless.
Teague has 3 fouls in 1st quarter forcing rose to play all 2nd quarter. The guy who has no use in this series is Gibson.
Thibs was dumb enough to leave Teague in the game with 2 fouls and 30 seconds left. He gave up a 3, then he walked, and gave up an and 1.
Thibs really is a bad coach.
Hey harden is guarding towns in the post... let’s send him to the corner. Minny going nowhere with him as a coach. Game has evolved in the last 10 years. He hasn’t.
Rose was actually having a really good game. So he sits the entire 4th. Thibs has one play. High screen then go 1 on 1.
Wiggins on harden ain’t going to well.
They didn't want Okafor. They wanted Porzingis but his agent wouldn't let him work out with them. He should have. And they wanted Russell and the Lakers took him. Who should they have taken? Mario Hezonja?
And why have Rose guard Harden? Is Butler just not healthy enough to keep up with Harden? Or are they worried Butler would get too tired or collect too many fouls?
Thibs deserved to get ripped, especially for their late offense. It was like watching them play a game of, "How many possessions can we have at the end of the game without KAT touching the ball?" It sort've reminded me of the playoff game Dwight Howard bitched about not touching the ball enough when he was still in Orlando. People killed him for publicly criticizing SVG, but the thing was Dwight was actually correct... he didn't touch the ball enough.
The end of the BOS-MIL game was terrific. Rozier's crossover 3 was gorgeous. Guys were making all kinds of crazy shots.
Lol. Scornful Knicks fans are the best. 16/2/4 on 50% in 23 minutes off the bench is something a d-leaguer could do? And as regards to his defense.... I am pretty sure thibs told him to guard Harden. Another reason thibs sucks. Total mismatch. But who did guard harden well last night? He lit up butler and Wiggins just as bad.
The reason for -8..... the duo of towns and Wiggins were awful. Teague finally stepped it up in the 4th as well. I think he scored 11 of his 15 in the 4th.
And you know I am just busting your balls. But Rose was asked to do way too much and KAT's either pussy job or Thibs inability to keep his ass in the post was the reason they lost.
Harden is still by far the worst man defender in the universe. Get Wiggins or Towns in the post when the yswitch everything and score at will.
I guess it's a bit much to blame the Wolves as they were a top 5 NBA team prior to Butler getting hurt, just perplexing how this team is run with its talent level.
Said Dep026 about 5 years ago.
That's part of the point of the "process" though. Hinkie talked about how no one is going to hit on all of their draft picks, so they'd do everything they can to acquire a bunch of top picks hoping to hit on some of them.
I guess it's a bit much to blame the Wolves as they were a top 5 NBA team prior to Butler getting hurt, just perplexing how this team is run with its talent level.
His first mistake was giving Dieng that hideous contract. Horrendous signing. Another scary thing is KAT and Wiggins have becomes worse defensive players. Rose couldnt guard me but at least he gave a shit last night where Wiggins just sat back and get abused every time Harden touched the ball.
They need to trade Wiggins, Dieng, and Gibson. Work around Teague/Butler/Towns and find some more shooters. Rose and Crawford work off the bench cause they can score.
Whats funny is Thibs could REALLY use another Bull who was traded who would fit nice with the Wolves and he is doing really well with his new team and that Mirotic. But Mirotic was another Thibs wasted early in his career and I dont think the two like each other.
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I'm starting to think Thibs might not be all he's cracked up to be.
Said Dep026 about 5 years ago.
Yeah, I remember you banging that home a couple of times.
Kings are a diaster of a franchise. It was criminal how much Randolph was playing this year. Hield for WIggins is interesting but they just drafted Justin Jackson as well.
Hield would be a nice piece for TWolves.
A guy who has done NOTHING worth bragging about in his career and is getting schooled by a back up is talking shit down 0-2?
If I am Milwaukee, I’d cut him right now. Don’t even wait until the offseason.
I thought Pelicans Blazers was going to go 7, but Pels are making short work of them now.
Huge game tonight for Cleveland.
Would be crazy to see Oladipo knock off the king tonight again. That would be HUGE.
How people root for him anymore is beyond me.
How people root for him anymore is beyond me.
Still love how he says he doesn't flop..
Good job refs.
Good job refs.
That wasn’t a good call at all.
They showed it on the TNT broadcast. That’s rough.
One of the biggest fixed games since lakers Kings. Oh ed Malloy is reffing. SUrprosong.
This has blowout written all over it.
And yet we’re talking about how the game is fixed, he’s whining, how can anybody root for him, etc. Its a joke. Normally smart posters made to look very silly here. Let’s have a better basketball discussion here than just complaining about the refs and claiming games are fixed.
And yet we’re talking about how the game is fixed, he’s whining, how can anybody root for him, etc. Its a joke. Normally smart posters made to look very silly here. Let’s have a better basketball discussion here than just complaining about the refs and claiming games are fixed.
He schooled Brian Bogdonovich. Awesome.
There is no doubt he is one of the greatest. He has already cemented being the 2nd best player ever. Thats not my problem. I love watching Lebron dominated.
But everytime the Cavs need a win, the same shit happens. Look at last night. Oladipo two fouls in the first minute. A bogus third on him in the 2nd period. A terrible intentional foul called on the Pacers. Pacers couldnt buy a call. Every time Indiana made a run - not a close call went against them, an outrageous one.
If Lebron came out and won by 100 doing this, I would be like - yep... Bron being Bron. But the game was set up right from the start for the Pacers to fail. The one good thing about this game was at least they didnt try to hide it ;)
My problem isnt with Lebron - its with the NBA.
How many straight years has he made it to the finals? No Lebron in the finals means ratings drop dramatically. So once he gets there, it doesnt matter.
Embiid doubtful to play tonight. That sucks.
You lose me when you start claiming conspiracy. And using Lebron always making the finals as evidence just doesn't hold water. The 2nd greatest player of all time, playing in the weaker conference is going to make the Finals in this sport. That's just the nature of it.
And he typically does so with very little resistance. There's no 2002 Kings/Lakers game 6 type game for him to point to as evidence. I can count on one hand the number of times his back has truly been against the wall pre-finals in this run since 2011. Celtics up 3-2 in 2012 (when he had maybe his best playoff game ever), down 2-1 to Chicago in 2015, down 2-1 to Indiana I think in 2012. That's about it, and those last two are a stretch. You could argue last night would qualify as well, and he reacted accordingly
My point being, he typically rolls to the Finals because he is that good, and the competition isn't too strong. There is no place for a league conspiracy or referee intervention there.
There's some really interesting things happening in the league right now. You're going to lose me when conspiracy theories start flying around
In 2002, they definitely needed the Lakers. Now, whether it's Cleveland, Houston, Philly, Golden State, OKC, whoever, viewership would be strong.
The league's two marquee franchises in the two largest markets have been largely terrible for at least the past five years and viewership continues to grow.
I'd argue the league is better off for it. It's a star's game.
You lose me when you start claiming conspiracy. And using Lebron always making the finals as evidence just doesn't hold water. The 2nd greatest player of all time, playing in the weaker conference is going to make the Finals in this sport. That's just the nature of it.
And he typically does so with very little resistance. There's no 2002 Kings/Lakers game 6 type game for him to point to as evidence. I can count on one hand the number of times his back has truly been against the wall pre-finals in this run since 2011. Celtics up 3-2 in 2012 (when he had maybe his best playoff game ever), down 2-1 to Chicago in 2015, down 2-1 to Indiana I think in 2012. That's about it, and those last two are a stretch. You could argue last night would qualify as well, and he reacted accordingly
My point being, he typically rolls to the Finals because he is that good, and the competition isn't too strong. There is no place for a league conspiracy or referee intervention there.
There's some really interesting things happening in the league right now. You're going to lose me when conspiracy theories start flying around
Kyle, I do agree with a lot of whatyou said. But these calls arent missed calls, they are outrageously bad. As a huge NBA fan, it takes the fun out of just watching the game. Do you want to watch a game where the refs take the teams best player out of the game in the first minute?
And I do disagee that the NBA doesnt need Lebron in the finals. They do. Outside of Philly, no one in the east would bring an audience to the finals. So if Philly plays cleveland - I wouldnt harp on it as much. But do you really believe the NBA wants to see a GS/Houston and Raptors finals? Or the crippled Celtics? I just dont see it.
Lebron goes to the finals because he is on the best team, you are right. But if there is a time he has a little scare - then I come a little more interested how the game is officiated. I mean last night he shot more free throws than the other team. The other teams best player was taken out of the game early and again in the 2nd quarter.
And again, this isnt Lebron getting calls - its the other team NOT getting them as well.
But there are poor calls all around. Noticed a number of them in the fourth quarter of OKC/Utah. It's just how it goes. And superstars definitely get the benefit of them. But not because the league is telling them to handle it that way.
Are there more viewers if Lebron is in the finals? Probably. But my argument is the league is past the point where it has to worry about that. The relative difference in viewership isn't large enough if it's Philly instead of Cleveland that they need to start intervening.
Heard him speak at the Sloan conference a year ago and we could tell he wasn't exactly thrilled about Durant in GS and what it did to competitive balance.
Heard him speak at the Sloan conference a year ago and we could tell he wasn't exactly thrilled about Durant in GS and what it did to competitive balance.
If Silver wants competitive balance, they need a hard cap. This is so ridiculous how much players have control over their contracts. I am not saying they dont deserve a chance to get as much money as possible. But it dictates who plays where and who they want to play with.
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as they do in all sports? And not that there's a big conspiracy and the fix is in?
You lose me when you start claiming conspiracy. And using Lebron always making the finals as evidence just doesn't hold water. The 2nd greatest player of all time, playing in the weaker conference is going to make the Finals in this sport. That's just the nature of it.
And he typically does so with very little resistance. There's no 2002 Kings/Lakers game 6 type game for him to point to as evidence. I can count on one hand the number of times his back has truly been against the wall pre-finals in this run since 2011. Celtics up 3-2 in 2012 (when he had maybe his best playoff game ever), down 2-1 to Chicago in 2015, down 2-1 to Indiana I think in 2012. That's about it, and those last two are a stretch. You could argue last night would qualify as well, and he reacted accordingly
My point being, he typically rolls to the Finals because he is that good, and the competition isn't too strong. There is no place for a league conspiracy or referee intervention there.
There's some really interesting things happening in the league right now. You're going to lose me when conspiracy theories start flying around
Kyle, I do agree with a lot of whatyou said. But these calls arent missed calls, they are outrageously bad. As a huge NBA fan, it takes the fun out of just watching the game. Do you want to watch a game where the refs take the teams best player out of the game in the first minute?
And I do disagee that the NBA doesnt need Lebron in the finals. They do. Outside of Philly, no one in the east would bring an audience to the finals. So if Philly plays cleveland - I wouldnt harp on it as much. But do you really believe the NBA wants to see a GS/Houston and Raptors finals? Or the crippled Celtics? I just dont see it.
Lebron goes to the finals because he is on the best team, you are right. But if there is a time he has a little scare - then I come a little more interested how the game is officiated. I mean last night he shot more free throws than the other team. The other teams best player was taken out of the game early and again in the 2nd quarter.
And again, this isnt Lebron getting calls - its the other team NOT getting them as well.
Agree, NBA wants Lebron, it just makes sense, best player, most marketable asset and well known name, but it seems like the Celtics always bring good ratings - I think they'd be ok with the C's over the Raptors or anyone other than CLE.
those Lakers Celtics finals are some of the best I've seen (though I am admittedly biased).
I don't think the NBA would mind if the Celtics somehow advance far enough to knock off CLE in a long series (though I believe that's unlikely).
The refs aren't going to be able to call "perfect" games or anything close that. All you can hope for is that the league evaluates officials by looking at tape, let's officials know bad habits or common mistakes that they make and put pressure on them to improve.
Some misses look egregious, but there's a lot of fans who get too caught up in every call and I think it's not a fun way to watch a basketball game. If you think there's some conspiracy to help Lebron get to the finals, then I'm not sure why you'd even waste your finite time watching the games.
My ideal Finals matchup would be Houston Philly. Some new blood to shake things up. The ratings would be pretty damn good too.
Oladipo pleaded a little and was respectful after the game. I dont think I grew a player as much as I do in Oladipo. FOr what he had to put up with last year to having an amazing year this year..... hands down most improved player and one of the best two way players in the game.
And if there's a lack of interest it would be from the Raptor's historically poor track record, not because there's a lack of population compared to cities like Milwaukee and NO.
Personally I think the NBA would love for the Raptors to win rings, because as stated above, they would get a whole entire COUNTRY behind 1 team.
And if there's a lack of interest it would be from the Raptor's historically poor track record, not because there's a lack of population compared to cities like Milwaukee and NO.
Personally I think the NBA would love for the Raptors to win rings, because as stated above, they would get a whole entire COUNTRY behind 1 team.
Solid points and I was thinking that too prior to my post. Toronto is the fourth biggest city in North America & they have a pretty rabid fan base in Canada. You might be wrong. The casual American fan probably could care less about the Raptors, but they'd probably draw in casual Canadian basketball fans.
I didn't mean to write 'You might be wrong'.
And if there's a lack of interest it would be from the Raptor's historically poor track record, not because there's a lack of population compared to cities like Milwaukee and NO.
Personally I think the NBA would love for the Raptors to win rings, because as stated above, they would get a whole entire COUNTRY behind 1 team.
Yes. Derozan and Lowry are good players but they arent household names. I mean look all the buzz that Lebron gets. Look at Simmons/Embiid. Look at Boston pre injury. If you brought up Toronto, the main response would be - yeah, they are ok.
Plus, I think they would get demolished by either GS or Houston (demolished meaning 5 games max). At least Lebron is usually good enough to get them to 6 or 7. Philly can give teams fits.
If Toronto plays a team from West and gets clobbered the first two games - is anyone really going to watch? I doubt it.
Yeha yeah, 2nd year. Yeah yeah they made the playoffs.
But man, awful last night. KAT and Wiggins stagnant. Teague was disgraceful last night. How they gave him roster control is a mystery.
These cities are packing in 20K + to MLS games and the Blazers have done well in Portland for a while. the NBA blew it there IMO.
And if there's a lack of interest it would be from the Raptor's historically poor track record, not because there's a lack of population compared to cities like Milwaukee and NO.
Personally I think the NBA would love for the Raptors to win rings, because as stated above, they would get a whole entire COUNTRY behind 1 team.
I read (can't remember where)the reason why Toronto got all the early games in the MLB playoffs had to do with the revenue and that MLB doesn't get as much from them as it does US markets. NBA may have something similar.
These cities are packing in 20K + to MLS games and the Blazers have done well in Portland for a while. the NBA blew it there IMO.
I'd be shocked if Seattle doesn't have an NBA team within the next decade.
Yeha yeah, 2nd year. Yeah yeah they made the playoffs.
But man, awful last night. KAT and Wiggins stagnant. Teague was disgraceful last night. How they gave him roster control is a mystery.
I don't know if they should fire him, but he's been proven to be really overrated as a head coach.
Cause you follow cricket, and not baseball. haha, jk!
#depisstereotyping
As for Simmons, he's been leading the team but Reddick, Ilyasova and Belinelli have been great (at least in game 1).
I don’t think that’s even a fair assessment. They were clearly a top 3 seed in the west and probably a top 5 team overall when Butler was healthy. Only reason they’re in the playoffs is because butler came back in the final week. MIN is for sure a clear step above the hodge lodge of NO, POR, OKC, UTA and SAS at full strength.
Around the league, front-office sources agree with at least half that assessment.
“I think they go in hard for Leonard once the season is over and once the dust settles in San Antonio,” one executive told Sporting News. “(Leonard) wants to go to LA. There probably won’t be public demands on that, but he has leverage. He is going to be a free agent (in 2019). He’s an LA guy and he can just let teams know he won’t re-sign next year with anyone but the Lakers.”
There could be some complicating factors, however. The Spurs could try to work out their differences with Leonard and put a supermax deal (worth $200 million) in front of him in July, but the franchise is wary of doing so because Leonard played only nine games this season with his mysterious quad injury. San Antonio also has young players it will need to make decisions on, contract-wise, in the next year or two (Dejounte Murray, Kyle Anderson and Davis Bertans).
And there’s the Lakers, who would be hesitant to give up young players like Kyle Kuzma and Brandon Ingram to land Leonard this year, if they’re fairly certain they could sign him outright next year as a free agent. There’s some danger to that, however. Paul George, for example, was dead-set on going to the Lakers at this time last year, but Oklahoma City gambled and traded for him. Now, there’s a chance the Thunder can keep George.
Jesus Christ. The Pelicans are getting scary.
Sixers looked good last night.
Jesus Christ. The Pelicans are getting scary.
Stop it. We all see what you are doing ;)
Damn, the one time I was right!
Damn, the one time I was right!
I think that was me. But this isn’t the same rondo that was on the kings or mavs
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from last year who was arguing with me that Tim Frazier and some other journeyman guard was better than Rajon Rondo.
Damn, the one time I was right!
I think that was me. But this isn’t the same rondo that was on the kings or mavs
Whats funny about the Pelicans series is the two former bulls are playing outstanding. Mirotic is really thriving playing with AD.
LOL. He was such a dick last night. I shouldn't be surprised considering where he went to college.
There may not even be a game 4. The Portland players might all be suffering radiation poisoning on account of being in range of Davis' nuclear assault.
I mean look at this thing - ( New Window )
LeBron changed that real quick
Yep, no influence these 3 non players have.
Poor pacers fan thought they had this. Haha
When wolves make 3s they are tough. They made like 16. Wiggins and Teague were very good. Butler a stud.
Simmons is incredible. If he stays healthy, the sky is the limit for him.
Nice to see the Toronto raptors turning into their usual bumpkins come playoff time. Cavs vs. philly would be a nice conference final.
Typical Westbrook response after the game. He cited Rubio won’t get that stat line again.
Always about stats, wins are secondary.
It's funny, the Westbrook criticism. I seem to recall a good many people giving Durant endless amounts of shit for not resigning himself to playing with a guy many people like to shit on, for the rest of his career.
I loved that one possession where he had the ball for the entire 24 seconds possession & chucked up a clunker.
Very weird narrative.
25-4 run with taj in the game to start the half.
Thibs should be fired in twolves want to get better.
Ingles gets in the face of george...
Brown shoves George to try and get him to react
Very weird narrative.
Yes he does care. RW cares about 1 thing. Russ’s stats. Once George leaves and he is surrounded by less than stellar players... he can get all the stats he wants, give all the snarls in the world, and never be a factor in the playoffs.
Say what you want about Durant, but he gave up personal stats for a title. I can’t see Westbrook doing the same.
Coming out to the press vocally about making sure someone doesn’t get stats and playing like a complete buffoon last night backs my case up.
Russell is was and always will be about Russell. Durant saw it and left.
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I won't bother arguing, you seem convinced no matter what happens.
Coming out to the press vocally about making sure someone doesn’t get stats and playing like a complete buffoon last night backs my case up.
Russell is was and always will be about Russell. Durant saw it and left.
I think George will leave OKC too rather than play with Westbrook long term. He seems like a tough guy to play with. Oladipo really took his game to another level this year also after getting away from Westbrook.
Who the hell is going to want to play with him? The answer is simple. No one.
Josh Richardson might miss tonight, if so, Miami is probably finished tonight.
I mean, it's pretty baselessly cynical to just say that all he cares about is holding someone below a certain statistical accomplishment that would make the defender look bad.
Cavs/Pacers series actually has been really good. Anyone else find it odd when the Cavs lose its because Lebron doesnt have enough but when Kyle Korver hit two huge threes in the last game to prevent them from going down 3-1, its barely mentioned in the media?
I hate the god damn media.
And if he loses to Philly, Boston will have to beat Simmons, Embiid, and Lebron.
I would say
Lebron
George
Wall
Kawhi
Deandre Jordan
Are more likely to be on different teams then the same ones next year. Lillard could also be on there as well, he met with management already before this season.
Ripple effects if Lebron would probably lead to a K-love trade too.
Kemba and Bledsoe also look like trade candidates heading into next year.
Cousins could be picked up by some other team on the relatively cheap
I thought it was a forgone conclusion he was gonna get $15M a year and a starter role from thibs.
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Derrick Rose will be a FA too :)
I thought it was a forgone conclusion he was gonna get $15M a year and a starter role from thibs.
and play 40 minutes a night.
Ball was NOT of Lebron.
Lebron goaltended Oladipo's layup.
Expect Lebron to win this at the buzzer.
Its why the East has sucked for years.
Ball was NOT of Lebron.
Lebron goaltended Oladipo's layup.
Expect Lebron to win this at the buzzer.
The goaltend was obvious at slow speed, but at regular speed that looked very close to 50/50, not an easy call. You think a 50/50 call isn't going LeBron's way, at the end of a playoff game, at home? It's not like he plays for the Warriors or something.
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blow two easy calls to end this game.
Ball was NOT of Lebron.
Lebron goaltended Oladipo's layup.
Expect Lebron to win this at the buzzer.
The goaltend was obvious at slow speed, but at regular speed that looked very close to 50/50, not an easy call. You think a 50/50 call isn't going LeBron's way, at the end of a playoff game, at home? It's not like he plays for the Warriors or something.
Refs get paid big bucks to get them right. Plus the ball wasn’t off Lebron earlier. Two pretty big calls. Still can’t ftho what McMillan was doing defensively at the end of the game.
17 turnovers, Oladipo with a terrible game, and they were still right there. Doesn’t speak well to the Cavs chances in the later rounds. But that was a pretty great ending. Just got to appreciate something like that
The Raptors just can't beat the Cavs.
I mean any Cavs team ever you can say that about. Even with Kyrie, when Lebron hasn't played Cleveland has a like a .200 record.
Isaiah Thomas was always extremely overrated. People foaming at the mouth at him from last year are now looking extremely foolished.
The Cavs have no shot this year at beating whomever emerges from the West (if they make it that far), and LeBron will take the heat for another Finals loss in that case.
But, man, is it still awesome to sit back and watch him run an offense and play basketball. As fans of athletics, the next generation is going to be jealous that we watched him for his entire career.
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This Cavs team is pretty bad - it's just LeBron being LeBron. Without him I don't think that team even sniffs the playoffs. The roster around him is garbage.
I mean any Cavs team ever you can say that about. Even with Kyrie, when Lebron hasn't played Cleveland has a like a .200 record.
Yeah, but Kyrie is world's better than anything else LeBron has there now or really has had there ever. He made a huge difference. LeBron is amazing but he can't carry this team all the way to a Championship.
The Isiah Thomas trade really did go terribly for them. He was a fantastic player before he got hurt.
I can't believe Jose Calderon is still in the LEAGUE let alone starting for a playoff team.
He can score. But he needs the ball in his hands a lot to score. With Lebon, those numbers were going to drop, most likely dramatically. And with him not being able to play a lick of defense, he was always an odd pairing with Lebron.
Houston works because guys of like Gordon, Ariza, and Green can do more than just score. Well Green not as much. But Gorodn and Ariza are good defenders and Gordon can score than just shooting 3s.
That's why I don't blame Leonard for not rushing back. It's a cutthroat business.
Ehhh...
Indiana really isnt that good though. haha. I mean they have no point guard. One guy who shoots it half way decently. And Turner kind of flat lined.
Lebron will beat Toronto because Toronto is Toronto. But the 76ers should be a fun series since Philly can score and not defend.
Indy has a pretty bright future, even though Boston/Philly are certainly outshining them. But at the end of the day, their 3 best players are are 25, 22 and 21 years old. If Indy had a true center that was a lob target and could rebound these traps would not nearly be as successful (thinking about Deandre Jordan in Indy). They start Turner and Thaddeus, neither of which are plus rebounder or true spacing threats, which hamstrings them especially at the end of games.
Ugh, I'd hate playing against the Jazz in the playoffs. They've got such a suspicious ref advantage at home, not to mention the altitude.
PG is definitely gone and Billy Donovan should be given the boot. Damn near 90 games into a season and they didn't even remotely look in sync offensively. Melo was on the bench late while RAY FELTON was on the floor.
Pretty egregious.
43 shots. Lol. See ya Paul. He’s thinking he can’t get out of dodge fast enough.
But Russ did have quite a few snarls.
Cavs Pacers tomorrow should be fun.
Epecially when they have a consensus top 5 player in the NBA/
Pacers will need to hit a bunch of 3s IMO to pull it out.
This game is boring already.
Indiana has no energy. Sorry Raptors, but you will be dismissed by Lebron next series.
Good defense creates good offense...
If that’s a tech, there should be 100 of them in the game.
Cleveland 9 free throws attempted
Cleveland called for 0 fouls.
Lebron flopped his way to two calls in a row.
Good job refs.
What do you mean? Lebron said he didn't know how to flop
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But does LeBron have to flop 5 feet every time?
What do you mean? Lebron said he didn't know how to flop
He could teach a class to the WWE guys on fake falls.
Right now, there’s NBA executives and TV guys praying Cleveland wins because if LeBron goes out, the Eastern conference ratings will fall like the Hindenburg.
He should leave either way - team is awful.
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This is a HUGE 4th quarter for Cleveland. There is a 0 % chance LBJ stucks around if Cavs are bounced this early.
He should leave either way - team is awful.
Agreed.
That was a very strange move. That three minute stretch to start the 4th quarter with Lebron out likely cost them the game
Good luck Toronto.
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This is a HUGE 4th quarter for Cleveland. There is a 0 % chance LBJ stucks around if Cavs are bounced this early.
Right now, there’s NBA executives and TV guys praying Cleveland wins because if LeBron goes out, the Eastern conference ratings will fall like the Hindenburg.
Boston/Philly is a good matchup but yes, Toronto/Indiana would get poor ratings (and Toronto would win pretty easily)
No matter how great LBJ is, I hate the fact that he is a serial flopper
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Oladipo was on the bench for only reason mate McMillan could make up.
That was a very strange move. That three minute stretch to start the 4th quarter with Lebron out likely cost them the game
I LOVE Sabonis, but his foul on Hill in the corner might've been the play that did them in. Pacers were the better team, but LeBron is LeBron. Besides, having the Cavs makes the series against the Raptors at least 2% watchable. If the Raptors lose to this sorry bunch, they need to be disbanded.
Great first half from Tatum, Horford, & Rozier.
Link - ( New Window )
Brown on Simmons will be the series deciding matchup. Miami was guarding him with Winslow and Richardson, both who are below 6'5". Simmons won't eat in the post of off Brown and his athleticism is matched as well. I picked Philly to win the series but i think its a 50/50 at this point.
Really think Toronto made a mistake by not using their bench pieces as trade trips. Fred Vanfleet can be poached. Powell lost plenty of trade value from last season. Toronto's big "power" play was trading for Ibaka. It's clear either management or ownership is uncomfortable doing anything remotely risky and that has put a cap on this team.
Really think Toronto made a mistake by not using their bench pieces as trade trips. Fred Vanfleet can be poached. Powell lost plenty of trade value from last season. Toronto's big "power" play was trading for Ibaka. It's clear either management or ownership is uncomfortable doing anything remotely risky and that has put a cap on this team.
I don't think they could have flat out have outbidded Chicago for Butler, but they didn't even get an outright pick it was a pick swap and Lavine was coming off an ACL tear.
Cousins I've always thought would be a flat out upgrade over JV, and Toronto has some strong personalities like Lowry and Casey to handle that.
If they didn't trade for Ibaka I think Griffin would have been on the table. Could have easily given LAC a better offer, especially since they were searching for young cost controlled players.
There are risks with all these deals. Ujiri only does deals where he can be deemed the clear winner, buying on the cheap (Ibaka). But you're never really going to land a prominent player playing that game. Ibaka was as "risky" as he was willing to go. Toronto has overperformed as any team could have with Lowry and Derozan as their 2 best players and still needs another star if they are to be taken seriously.
Tied game here.
It’s the raptors. Of course they are going to lose.
LMAO. This team should be barred from the playoffs. Sit down drake. You’re as overrated as your team.
I stand by what I said on Sunday. What a pathetic team.
They lost at home to a team that looked absolutely pathetic for the majority of their previous series. Unless you want to tell me the Pacers are better than the Raptors, they should be able to beat this version of the Cavs. Instead, they lost homecourt advantage already.
And Lebron was 12 for 30 and has home court. Raptors blow. If Casey loses this series, he needs to be fired.
Think the conspiracy theories can be put to rest, these refs are just bad. That foul on Lebron when Ibaka landed on his foot was absolutely awful and nearly ended the game
Think the conspiracy theories can be put to rest, these refs are just bad. That foul on Lebron when Ibaka landed on his foot was absolutely awful and nearly ended the game
Yup. No way to sugarcoat this loss for Toronto. It was devastating, especially when LBJ was a mere mortal last night.
Thats why you dont play your bench as much as he does in the playoffs.
10-27: a combined -13 +/-
Bench play is in the playoffs is vastly overrated. especially when there are 5 bench players on the floor to start the 4th quarter!
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I was hopingCasey would go off on a Dennis green we let them off the hook rant. Can’t believe how ice cold the shooting was in the fourth.
Thats why you dont play your bench as much as he does in the playoffs.
10-27: a combined -13 +/-
Bench play is in the playoffs is vastly overrated. especially when there are 5 bench players on the floor to start the 4th quarter!
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In comment 13950355 Les in TO said:
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I was hopingCasey would go off on a Dennis green we let them off the hook rant. Can’t believe how ice cold the shooting was in the fourth.
Having a good bench is basically meaningless come playoff time. A good bench doesnt help you as much as a bad bench hurts you. The only difference between this Raptors team and those from years past is there's tons more hype and false hope around this years team.
That game was a barnburner. Of course the Barkley-Draymond slanging match will grab a lot of the attention, but it was a fun game to watch, and the Pelicans looked more like the team that swept the Blazers. Steph was good in his return, but he also had 6 turnovers and was careless with the ball, especially in the final minutes. Turnovers could end up being Warriors' Achilles heel if they're not more careful.
I kind of wish they get swept. Casey has to get fired, right?
Drake is abysmal. How do they keep letting that clown make himself a part of the show? Perkins should have beat his ass down. Any other fan that keeps finduhimself in these situations would be banned for life.
BENCHSQUAD!!
It’s too bad other teams don’t play their scrubs against Toronto’s scrubs.
UGH not anymore, this damn Celtics team
I kind of wish they get swept. Casey has to get fired, right?
Shit, I don't know... how much blame for a 48 point, 14 assist game by LeBron lies at Casey's feet?
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Raptors. Getting ass whooped at home.
I kind of wish they get swept. Casey has to get fired, right?
Shit, I don't know... how much blame for a 48 point, 14 assist game by LeBron lies at Casey's feet?
Nate McMillin executed a better defense against Lebron with Bogdan bogdonavic and Lance Stephenson. Doubled him on the drive every time. Nothing stops Lebron but it wasn’t 48 and 14.
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Raptors. Getting ass whooped at home.
I kind of wish they get swept. Casey has to get fired, right?
Shit, I don't know... how much blame for a 48 point, 14 assist game by LeBron lies at Casey's feet?
They got embarrassed at home after blowing game 1. They might get swept for the second year in a row and as this years 1 seed. They gave up 130 points. Something ain’t working there.
But man, what an easy road it has been. I mean some of these teams are JV caliber to those out West. I mean a healthy Wolves/Pelicans team would be a 1/2 seed in the East.
When Boston is the 2nd best team and they dont even have their 2 best players - thats saying something.
I am obviously biased but I can see the Knicks being a 45 win team if/when KP plays his first healthy season. I also think the Bulls are the next team to follow The Process, still a few years away but things have been shaking out for them.
Toronto is still an annoying regular season team, I don't think they're that different from the recent Clippers teams that failed come playoff time. They are still "there".
Hi Santa!
Hi Santa!
I know, it's bizarre. I mean, I knew at some point the consensus best team in the league would overtake the Pelicans when it comes to getting foul calls at home, but I didn't think it would only take 4 seasons.
Rockets rolled in Utah.
I'd be comfortable with half.
Up 1... he shoots the ball with no shot clock and 17 left in game. Turns it over with 5 seconds left on a lazy pass. Misses uncontested dunk and layup in the 4th.
76ers would have been better with him on the bench.
Up 1... he shoots the ball with no shot clock and 17 left in game. Turns it over with 5 seconds left on a lazy pass. Misses uncontested dunk and layup in the 4th.
76ers would have been better with him on the bench.
He cant shoot, just play off of him, celtics are doing what the spurs did to lebron in the finals..
Make him beat you with his jumper
He needs to learn how to shoot be sure nobody takes him seriously when it comes to shooting. Huge liability.
And the kid just turned 20, he’s going to be a star in this league for a long time. I can see them packaging Brown in a trade but Tatum should be untouchable for them
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What a talent.
And the kid just turned 20, he’s going to be a star in this league for a long time. I can see them packaging Brown in a trade but Tatum should be untouchable for them
I've read multiple people say that, but why would they package Brown?
They're on the cusp of the ECF without Kyrie and Hayward.
Brown has star potential too IMO.
If Tatum and Brown continue to develop and Kyrie can stay healthy, why can't the Celtics compete without dealing Brown?
Or is Brown semi-redundant with Hayward? I know when Hayward went down, people said Brown would need to step up, and he has.
What I can see the Celtics do is trade Marcus Smart. Rozier may make him expendable.
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In comment 13955693 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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What a talent.
And the kid just turned 20, he’s going to be a star in this league for a long time. I can see them packaging Brown in a trade but Tatum should be untouchable for them
I've read multiple people say that, but why would they package Brown?
They're on the cusp of the ECF without Kyrie and Hayward.
Brown has star potential too IMO.
If Tatum and Brown continue to develop and Kyrie can stay healthy, why can't the Celtics compete without dealing Brown?
Or is Brown semi-redundant with Hayward? I know when Hayward went down, people said Brown would need to step up, and he has.
What I can see the Celtics do is trade Marcus Smart. Rozier may make him expendable.
Oh I’m not sure I don’t follow them that closely, just based off what I’ve seen Tatum has more potential. And they have so many draft picks, they simply can’t make room for everyone. Somethings gotta give, maybe they make a move for Leonard?
As for the Sixers, they made 2 or 3 of the worst turnovers I've ever seen a professional basketball team make with less than 2 minutes left in regulation and/or OT. Long live "The Confetti Game".
Yeah, but can you imagine how much better OBJ would be if they could replace his brain with Draymond's? Holy shit.
Hahaha. I've noticed that too.
The narratives have to keep changing because he keeps doing all the things people say he can't or won't.
Toronto has to blow that thing up right? Crazy thing to say about a 1 seed, but it's just never going to happen for them. At least not as long as Lebron is still in the East.
Toronto has to blow that thing up right? Crazy thing to say about a 1 seed, but it's just never going to happen for them. At least not as long as Lebron is still in the East.
They need to fire Casey
Trade Derozan (best trade chip)
Trade Van Fleet (stuck with Lowry, might be 2nd best trade chip)
Trade Iabaka (salary relief)
And rebuild.
They are stuck in purgatory now. Much like the Atlanata Hawks were for years. Atlanta finally got smart and got rid of everyone.
A lot of fans get caught up on records in the East the last few years. The thing was all the top or number 1 seeds outside Lebrons teams were heavily flawed. Many of them were grinders with decent benches. The problem is that doesnt work in the playoffs.
Bulls, Hawks, Raptors, and even to the Celts (they are going the right direction tho) were never serious contenders to beat Lebron cause they didnt have the right makeup or team structure to beat them. You need MULTIPLE defenders and bigs who can defend. These teams usually had one or the other.
I will say that if Boston had Kyrie and Gordon, Id make them the heavy favorite.
Tatum, Brown, and Horford could take turns guarding Lebron. Even Smart as well. They could go small, and they could go shoot. Missed opportunity for Boston.
If they blow it up and the rebuild doesn't work, it could be over a decade or more before they ever get back to winning 55-60 games again.
They should at least run it back for another year or two.
If they blow it up and the rebuild doesn't work, it could be over a decade or more before they ever get back to winning 55-60 games again.
They should at least run it back for another year or two.
If the goal is to make money - then sure.
If the goal is to win titles - then they need to blow it up ASAP.
They arent beating Cleveland. Philly and Boston are going to be really, really, really good in the upcoming year. Toronto is getting old. They have as much of a chance of winning the title than the Knicks do in the next 3 years. Maybe even less of a shot.
I got GS in 6. Cant stomach seeing Harden or Paul in the finals.
Officials in the NBA have more say in who wins sometimes than the players do. What an epic disaster that call was and shame on the NBA for not doing a thing about it. Brown and Embiid should bitch their asses off in the press conference because that was a joke.
Not reading too much into this, winner was always going to lose to Lebron in 6 or less. Both the Celtics and sixers will look completely different next year, I think it’s the start of a good rivalry.
That East is murderous.
Celtics aren't beating Lebron, not with Kyrie/Hayward.
Rly?
Ill put it simply for the 100th time this thread. Raptors blow ass monkey chunks.
You guys had a nice run but when Lebron is getting Brown/Tatum in foul trouble in game 1 or 2 so they can steal home court, you are going to wish you played the Raptors who wouldnt get the calls. Hell, even Embiid couldnt get a forearm chop to the arm in the last 10 seconds.
I think Boston would've beat Toronto, maybe in 5 or 6. They struggled against the 8 seed and got swept by the 4th seed. They match up beautifully, put Brown on Derozan and Smart on Lowry.
He plays in an era that ball dominant individuals will dominate statistics. He is always going to get his stats. He is always going to play well. But at the end of the championship series, here's whats going to happen.
1. He wins the title, he is better than Jordan.
2. He loses the title, well he didnt have enough help, it shouldnt affect his standing with Jordan, and he will look to join the 76ers or some other team that can get him a title immediately.
Rinse and repeat.
And I don't even have time for Kobe v Lebron guys.
Just one of many "debates" - ( New Window )
Are there many, many things about Lebron and the coverage of him that can be nauseating? Yes. You also don't have to take the Skip Bayless approach in order to make your point
Honestly what do people get out of watching/reading sports news and fan articles? I have respect for guys that dig into X's and O's (Zach Lowe, most of his guests) but paying attention to ESPN talking heads, I don't see how that provides any value.
Dep I can tell you don't enjoy it either lol. Dont do it! ESPN is dying a slow, painful death, take them out of its misery!
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read any news source and Mj vs. Lebron is always brought up. Especially after beating average teams in the playoffs. Just one of many "debates" - ( New Window )
Honestly what do people get out of watching/reading sports news and fan articles? I have respect for guys that dig into X's and O's (Zach Lowe, most of his guests) but paying attention to ESPN talking heads, I don't see how that provides any value.
Dep I can tell you don't enjoy it either lol. Dont do it! ESPN is dying a slow, painful death, take them out of its misery!
I go to websites for 538 articles and scores/highlights. It was the main piece on the page. I just find them all the time. I mean if they beat a team out west - ok, then you can have an argument. But they just beat the Raptors. lol
Are there many, many things about Lebron and the coverage of him that can be nauseating? Yes. You also don't have to take the Skip Bayless approach in order to make your point
Ok, maybe the raptors make the playoffs. But the 8th seed were the TWolves and the 7th seed were the Spurs.
To say Toronto is definitely better than those 2 teams is absurd. I would take both those teams over Toronto.
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Lebron/the Cavs beat teams that wouldn't be in the playoffs in the West? When you start a sentence like that it becomes painfully obvious what your agenda is.
Are there many, many things about Lebron and the coverage of him that can be nauseating? Yes. You also don't have to take the Skip Bayless approach in order to make your point
Ok, maybe the raptors make the playoffs. But the 8th seed were the TWolves and the 7th seed were the Spurs.
To say Toronto is definitely better than those 2 teams is absurd. I would take both those teams over Toronto.
Spurs were complete garbage without Kawhi. They ended the season horrendously.
Derozan vs LMA? Lowry vs Dejonte Murray? JV vs Kyle Anderson?
I agree that the Raptors would lose to probably every other western conference team but I cant think of how the Spurs wouldve topped many EC teams. I think they wouldve lost to Washington. Theyd beat Miami and maybe Milwaukee?
The point is I dont want to talk about Lebron James status as an all time player based on these series. He dominated and crushed them. He will do the same to Boston (albeit not as dominate because the Celtics are a better team with a better coach).
He is going to face a juggernaut in the finals barring injuries. His supporting cast was VERY good against Toronto. He is going to put up amazing stats.
But when push comes to shove. Are the fadeaways, pull up 3s, and drives to the basket going to result in wins or losses.
Though in typical LeBron fashion, he'll probably just join Phi and keep it a 2 team race in the east.
Link - ( New Window )
Not really.
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Toronto has always outperformed talent level. maybe some specific coaching in the playoffs led to his fall. Lowry and Derozan were basically backup quality for their first few years in the league. Derozan transformed drastically, but I'd still argue that Toronto doesn't have a top 20 player on their roster and has been a top seed in the East the past few years. Obviously talent gets exposed in the playoffs.
Moves like subbing in Nogueira at the end of the first half of game four instead of JV who was having a solid night, boneheaded defensive miscues in game one when the raptors had two extra days to rest and prepare and home court against a gassed Cavs squad, havingCJ miles defend Love, the lack of a sensible defensive plan on Lebronto’s winning shot in game 3, failing to inbound the ball after a full timeout....there were a lot of questionable moves by Casey throughout the playoffs. And it’s not just in this playoffs. The team was swept by the Wizards in2014, upset by the nets in 2013 and barely escaped an upset of the pacers in 2016. Casey is a great guy and gets his team to play hard night in and night out, but he’s the Andy Reid/Marvin Lewis of the NBA
IMO Washington is more talented (and at least similarly talented) but the levels of success achieved by both Toronto and Washington have been different the last few years.
Isn't the '14 team the year Rudy Gay got traded? Yeah, that team had no business sniffing the playoffs. Toronto's now on the least desirable path possible and firing Casey doesn't solve it (not saying that keeping him would've, but Toronto has a talent - not a coaching- issue).
It’s certainly not all Casey’s fault, and he got the team to buy into a different style this year that reaped the #1 overall seed. However some of the deployment of talent, schemes and tactics in the playoffs deserve criticism. The Cavs were expecting a long series and several of the raptors players said the issues were mental.
He has been the leading candidate for every job so far
If you add Hayward and Irving to this line-up, this is a legit contender.
Two teams passed on Tatum. Wow.
If you add Hayward and Irving to this line-up, this is a legit contender.
Two teams passed on Tatum. Wow.
IMO they’d be easy favorite last with those two. What they are doing without them is incredible, even being in the ECF last year. Just a well coached team like you said. They won by 25 with Rozier scoring 8. I mean wow.
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Be the leading candidate to replace Casey
He has been the leading candidate for every job so far
He wants personnel control and he is not getting it in toronto
Probably the only matchup that I’d watch. Really not interested in golden State or Cleveland. What Boston is doing without their 2 best players is pretty unprecedented. I hate Boston but I have to tip my cap and would probably pull for them if they make the finals.
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but I'm praying for a Celtics/Rockets NBA Finals. Their regular season matchups were great, there's a little bad blood there and who gives a shit about Lebron vs Curry & the all-star friends anymore.
Probably the only matchup that I’d watch. Really not interested in golden State or Cleveland. What Boston is doing without their 2 best players is pretty unprecedented. I hate Boston but I have to tip my cap and would probably pull for them if they make the finals.
Exactly but you know it’s not what the NBA wants. The casual fan probably couldn’t name one player on the Celtics. I don’t see the Celts or Cavs beating either the Warriors or Rockets though. But I think Boston on this run would have the best chance.
In the East.... Boston's length all over the place will give Cavs fits, but I expect Lebron to bounce back. Winning game 1 was huge for Boston.
Dubs in 5 over Houston.
Well it depends. He may have money on golden state tonight.
His act is old and boring
This TNT is pretty clueless.
I miss living out on the West Coast on nights like this.
GS gets their first two shot foul 23 minuites into the game.
Meanwhile, Ariza already has to sit with 5 fouls... early in the third quarter.
The only two shot foul GS got was a foul 70 feet away from the basket when Tucker intentionally fouled Klay.
The calls have NOWHERE been even this game. And Ariza is their 4th best player. When Paul gets 5 fouls in the 3rd, you may have a point. I would say Harden too, but he doesnt even try defensively.
Scott Foster screws Durant out of a free throw on a horrendous call. Such a pathetic official. That was clearly a 3 point shot.
Scott Foster screws Durant out of a free throw on a horrendous call. Such a pathetic official. That was clearly a 3 point shot.
Wasn't he involved with donaghy?
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Harden.
Scott Foster screws Durant out of a free throw on a horrendous call. Such a pathetic official. That was clearly a 3 point shot.
Wasn't he involved with donaghy?
They are close friends and he made more phone calls to Donaghy than Donaghy made to his bookie.
Needs to be thrown out of the league.
GS did what they had to do. Must win for Houston in game 2.
This was supposed to be the NBA finals and the Rockets will be lucky to win more than 1 game.
Just pure shit this entire playoffs. If the Warriors are healthy they can't lose, so why should anyone watch?
Anyone who thinks its good for the sport is brain dead. It's not Kevin Durants job to do whats good for the sport, but as a fan there is zero reason to watch.
It's a worthless product as far as suspense goes. And while the skill level may be as high as its ever been, I watch sports for the potential suspense involved. The NBA has zero and it's not changing anytime soon. The NBA went from having a worthless regular season for a long time to now the entire season playoffs included is worthless, we already can guarantee who is goign to win unless someone gets hurt.
Like watching the globetrotters
2. Houston ran 2 plays last night. ISO and high screen and role. You arent going to beat GS that way. GS let Curry and Looney on islands all night which meant the role players never saw the ball. There had to be over 50% of their possessions where no one but Paul and Harden touched the ball.
3. Durant is challenging Jordan to be the best pure scorer or all time. He makes it look to easy.
4. Warriors arent going away and everyone who has a gripe with the same winner every year. Blame the top players in the league. Lebron, CP3, Wade, etc were the ones who pushed the owners to get the contract demands that they want. A salary cap in the NBA is an utter joke. Salary cap was suppose to be a shade over 99 million this year. 19 teams exceeded that. And dont give me this luxury cap nonsense. No team truly cares about it that is good.
5. One rule that needs to be instituted immediately. 5 second call with the ball - dribbling or not - outside the 3 point line. Watching Harden, Lebron, Westbrook, Wall, etc hold the ball for 15 seconds and dribbling it going nowhere sucks ass.
You sure about that?
They’ve done it all year, when these Boston teams get going everything seems to fall their way. So annoying lol. I actually can’t even bring myself to dislike this Celtics team, just a bunch of young kids playing well and well coached.
LOL first Rozier then Horford, good calls
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with 7 in a row.
LOL first Rozier then Horford, good calls
To my defense, he was playing very poorly and he responded. And they needed him too.
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In comment 13965155 dep026 said:
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with 7 in a row.
LOL first Rozier then Horford, good calls
To my defense, he was playing very poorly and he responded. And they needed him too.
Yeah no doubt he was playing awful
For all the complaining about the NBA being over and the Warriors winning forever, the Celtics with Irving and Hayward are contenders.
Link - ( New Window )
Let the philly rumors begin now then. when Lebron cant win, its time to blame everyone else and jump ship.
For all the complaining about the NBA being over and the Warriors winning forever, the Celtics with Irving and Hayward are contenders.
They may even be contenders without them. It would take a herculean effort and some bad play by GS, but stranger things have happened.
When you're down to shoving guys in the back in the air, your coach should probably just shut his mouth about playing chippy.
LeBron can turn it on at any moment and win a game on his own, but that is a dysfunctional and unlikeable team.
For all the complaining about the NBA being over and the Warriors winning forever, the Celtics with Irving and Hayward are contenders.
I said this two-months ago and was laughed off the thread (I think the comments were mostly like "sure they could contend to not get swept"). Still GS would be significant favorites but with the C's at full strength I think it could be interesting.
I'd like to even see it as a preview this year in case in the rarest of circumstances Kyrie can stay healthy for a full season next year it would be a contest.
I'd also like to see what Stevens can come up with in a series vs GS.
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This is a character-building series for Boston.
For all the complaining about the NBA being over and the Warriors winning forever, the Celtics with Irving and Hayward are contenders.
I said this two-months ago and was laughed off the thread (I think the comments were mostly like "sure they could contend to not get swept"). Still GS would be significant favorites but with the C's at full strength I think it could be interesting.
I'd like to even see it as a preview this year in case in the rarest of circumstances Kyrie can stay healthy for a full season next year it would be a contest.
I'd also like to see what Stevens can come up with in a series vs GS.
Rozier and Brown for Leonard. Who says no?
Irving
Tatum
Heyward
Leonard
Horford
Smart, Morris, Baynes, and the rookie from SMU off the bench. Not a bad combo.
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In comment 13965167 christian said:
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This is a character-building series for Boston.
For all the complaining about the NBA being over and the Warriors winning forever, the Celtics with Irving and Hayward are contenders.
I said this two-months ago and was laughed off the thread (I think the comments were mostly like "sure they could contend to not get swept"). Still GS would be significant favorites but with the C's at full strength I think it could be interesting.
I'd like to even see it as a preview this year in case in the rarest of circumstances Kyrie can stay healthy for a full season next year it would be a contest.
I'd also like to see what Stevens can come up with in a series vs GS.
Rozier and Brown for Leonard. Who says no?
Irving
Tatum
Heyward
Leonard
Horford
Smart, Morris, Baynes, and the rookie from SMU off the bench. Not a bad combo.
Cleveland would be no contest. They'd probably give up 140 points with the wide open looks they allow. And Lebron is starting to get that look like he's knows this group has no chance.
If they can get him to stay, they've got to trade that lottery pick for something established. Maybe package it with Love. This roster is absolutely broken.
Who says no?
Who says no?
Cleveland may have to take Turner back as well.
Clarkson - DNP
Nance - scoreless in 4 of the last 5 games
Hood - terrible player, refused to go in garbage time
Hill - useless player, huge disappointment.
They were better off keeping Rose and Crowder. It would have them given a shooter and defender in Crowder and a scorer off the bench in Rose.
But much like a lot of other players in Lebrons career, players careers die when they play with Lebron.
They want to keep the series on back to back nights. I believe they try to avoid Friday games at all costs. Worst viewing night for sports.
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& then no games until Saturday night. WTF?
They want to keep the series on back to back nights. I believe they try to avoid Friday games at all costs. Worst viewing night for sports.
Yeah, that makes sense. Just sucks there's no action until Saturday night after today.
Money should be all over Houston and Harden getting to the line 26 times!
Yep. NBA basketball starring ed Malloy and Kenny Mauer.
Tristan Thompson is a superstar. All his illegal screen are ignored. Kevin Garnett is proud.
Great team but unless you're a Warriors fan I dont know how you can root for them.
Dep. The Cs ran roughshod over Cavs in Game 1.
Horford is being paid big time money. Needs to dominate, not be dominated.
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This is like a good varsity team up against a JV. Outside 3rd quarter in game 2.. Cleveland has been the much better team the last 3 games.
Dep. The Cs ran roughshod over Cavs in Game 1.
Games 2, 3, 4 was my reference. Cleveland played pretty well outside the third quarter in game 2
Not saying Cavs will win in Boston, but i'd be stunned beyond belief if they lost in Cleveland.
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In comment 13970696 dep026 said:
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This is like a good varsity team up against a JV. Outside 3rd quarter in game 2.. Cleveland has been the much better team the last 3 games.
Dep. The Cs ran roughshod over Cavs in Game 1.
Games 2, 3, 4 was my reference. Cleveland played pretty well outside the third quarter in game 2
I got ya.
Not saying Cavs will win in Boston, but i'd be stunned beyond belief if they lost in Cleveland.
Agreed.
If Cavs win tonight & Wednesday, this probably ends Friday in Cleveland.
Tristan is in his head.
We already know the finals are going to be a joke too. NBA would be lucky if there was more than 1 close game in the entire finals
It is worse it is Jane Fitzgerald horrible official and a little bitch also
GS gettin hot!
Amazing
Amazing
And nothing but net
Klay thompson could easily go to another team and be the best player but instead he is going to sign an extension to be the 3rd guy...
Free throws 21-7.
Which is funny because he almost has a triple double
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....
Which is funny because he almost has a triple double
i am so sick of the phrase triple double. Its been so devalued with the way the game is played now.
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In comment 13972132 dep026 said:
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....
Which is funny because he almost has a triple double
i am so sick of the phrase triple double. Its been so devalued with the way the game is played now.
Yup...agreed
Iggy not playing is killing them. Durant is taking some awful shots. This is going to be 2-2. Saw this coming at the end of the 3rd.
Houston has this series now. Bad year for the NBA.
Dont see it now. harden was pathetic in the 2nd half. He wont be that bad again. Klay has been awful all series. And if Iggy isnt right, the 5th player will be costly for them.
Huge game tonight. The Celts have to get out to a fast start.
They did it last game too.
Right on cue
Also he’s got 13 boards and is a +17
I am glad he got an uncontested dunk. It was impressive. He has been better than rozier.
I am glad he got an uncontested dunk. It was impressive. He has been better than rozier.
That’s never been his game though, he’s not gonna put up 30. Has had some timely buckets down the stretch of games though
You have a rookie in Tatum becoming a super star in front of our eyes. We're seeing a little dent in the facade of the dymastic Warriors, and maybe a little age showing in the world's best player in Cleveland.
Of course the Warriors might sweep Cleveland in the Finals. I wouldn't be shocked. But the Celts and Rockets are making this really fun.
You have a rookie in Tatum becoming a super star in front of our eyes. We're seeing a little dent in the facade of the dymastic Warriors, and maybe a little age showing in the world's best player in Cleveland.
Of course the Warriors might sweep Cleveland in the Finals. I wouldn't be shocked. But the Celts and Rockets are making this really fun.
The problem is outside game 4 of GS-Houston - the games have not been competitive. If the gaems were close and back and forth, more people would be excited by it.
You can speak for yourself. I don't like the warriors players anymore or less and I hate dynasties (that aren't the teams I root for) even more.
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is like rooting for the cowboys. Bunch of hateable players.
You can speak for yourself. I don't like the warriors players anymore or less and I hate dynasties (that aren't the teams I root for) even more.
I always knew you were a closet cowboys fan. haha
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In comment 13973966 dep026 said:
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is like rooting for the cowboys. Bunch of hateable players.
You can speak for yourself. I don't like the warriors players anymore or less and I hate dynasties (that aren't the teams I root for) even more.
I always knew you were a closet cowboys fan. haha
And you're a Jordan-Bulls fan, somehow a NY Giants fan and have created an "acceptable" scenario for yourself to root for the greatest basketball team of all time. You're a knowledgeable basketball fan for sure but you know how to cover your bases pretty well.
A good reason to hope he never wins shit. The style prevalent in the league now sucks ass. Chuck, flop, chuck.
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He's largely responsible for the way the NBA game is played these days, and doesn't really get any credit for it.
A good reason to hope he never wins shit. The style prevalent in the league now sucks ass. Chuck, flop, chuck.
Right cuz if NBA teams just adopted Tony Bennett's offense ratings would blow through the roof.
And you're a Jordan-Bulls fan, somehow a NY Giants fan and have created an "acceptable" scenario for yourself to root for the greatest basketball team of all time. You're a knowledgeable basketball fan for sure but you know how to cover your bases pretty well.
Only reason I am rooting for GS is my hatred for Harden and Paul. If they were playing anyone else, Id probably root for the other team. I am really hoping for Boston to win it all.
People may hate golden state and thats their right as a fan - but nobody plays the game better than them. Truth be told, they were more fun without Durant because there was less ISO ball. The reaosn they lost the other night is because they went too much ISO with KD and eh had a really bad game.
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And you're a Jordan-Bulls fan, somehow a NY Giants fan and have created an "acceptable" scenario for yourself to root for the greatest basketball team of all time. You're a knowledgeable basketball fan for sure but you know how to cover your bases pretty well.
Only reason I am rooting for GS is my hatred for Harden and Paul. If they were playing anyone else, Id probably root for the other team. I am really hoping for Boston to win it all.
People may hate golden state and thats their right as a fan - but nobody plays the game better than them. Truth be told, they were more fun without Durant because there was less ISO ball. The reaosn they lost the other night is because they went too much ISO with KD and eh had a really bad game.
I'd root for any team to top GS. Boston, LAL, Houston. Idc. I know the Knicks aren't going to be catching up in title wins anytime soon but just hate seeing any team consistently rack up rings. And that's with full respect to GS. I can't root for KD but I wouldnt pick any other player to start a team with. Steph and Klay are eh to me, respect them as players. Draymond is an asshole but he'll always get more flack then he deserves. Him taking a leap is what got GS to this point and I don't think he'd be any less affective on any other team. He's a top 3-4 PF right now in the league.
I think Chris Paul is a dick and I loathe his history of hitting guys in the groin. But I've always thought he was one of the most underrated players in NBA history due to a lack of postseason success. I think he plays the point guard position perfectly. He is an incredible floor general, makes smart passes, can score very well but always put that secondary to facilitating for his teammates, and is a bulldog on defense.
I also like and dislike the Warriors. I think they are the best and deepest constructed NBA team I have ever seen. Curry and Durant are freaks on offense, Thompson is one of the best shooters I've ever seen and a very good defender. Durant makes big defensive plays, Green and Iguodala are elite defensively, and Livingston is such a mis-match on offense in the mid-range which is perfect for a back-up.
I hope it goes 7.
I think Chris Paul is a dick and I loathe his history of hitting guys in the groin. But I've always thought he was one of the most underrated players in NBA history due to a lack of postseason success. I think he plays the point guard position perfectly. He is an incredible floor general, makes smart passes, can score very well but always put that secondary to facilitating for his teammates, and is a bulldog on defense.
I also like and dislike the Warriors. I think they are the best and deepest constructed NBA team I have ever seen. Curry and Durant are freaks on offense, Thompson is one of the best shooters I've ever seen and a very good defender. Durant makes big defensive plays, Green and Iguodala are elite defensively, and Livingston is such a mis-match on offense in the mid-range which is perfect for a back-up.
I hope it goes 7.
CP3 has always been the biggest baby in NBA history too. I was floored when he told Durant to stop crying the other night.
CP3 has always been the biggest baby in NBA history too. I was floored when he told Durant to stop crying the other night.
This biggest baby in NBA History huh? I'm pretty sure CP3 has never asked out of a game because the final play wasn't called for him.
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In comment 13974089 PaulBlakeTSU said:
CP3 has always been the biggest baby in NBA history too. I was floored when he told Durant to stop crying the other night.
This biggest baby in NBA History huh? I'm pretty sure CP3 has never asked out of a game because the final play wasn't called for him.
Good example. But I am sure Pippen didnt throw his hands up and run to the official every time a foul was called on him. And I am sure Pippen didnt go out of his way to rip a female ref to shreds after a game to the press because he disagreed with a call either and saying the game might not be for her either.
Chris Paul is a cry baby bitch. Always has been, always will be. One of the few "stars" in this league who wasnt good enough to win on his own and had to change things how the league was run so he could team up with some buddies or better players.
Chris Paul is a cry baby bitch. Always has been, always will be. One of the few "stars" in this league who wasnt good enough to win on his own and had to change things how the league was run so he could team up with some buddies or better players. [/quote]
You mean like LeBron? Or Durant? It's pretty commonplace now for stars to try and team up and make things easier on themselves.
Chris Paul is a cry baby bitch. Always has been, always will be. One of the few "stars" in this league who wasnt good enough to win on his own and had to change things how the league was run so he could team up with some buddies or better players.
You mean like LeBron? Or Durant? It's pretty commonplace now for stars to try and team up and make things easier on themselves. [/quote]
Paul and Lebron were the ones who set up the negotiations for it to happen. Durant did sign with them - but he didnt do the behind the scenes work.
The whole "teaming up" complaint is nonsense. Some all-time greats were blessed to play for teams whose GMs were able to give them great stars to team up with, some all-time greats did not and either came up short, or used their autonomy to team up with stars on their own.
The whole "teaming up" complaint is nonsense. Some all-time greats were blessed to play for teams whose GMs were able to give them great stars to team up with, some all-time greats did not and either came up short, or used their autonomy to team up with stars on their own.
Sorry Paul
Comparing Jordans success to what Lebron did is crazy. Jordan never had to leave a team to win a title. Yes, having Pippen was great and he needed him. but what Paul and Lebron have done has changed the whole aspect of contracts in the NBA and it has ruined the league. You have 19 teams over the salary cap. Its much much easier to join whoever you want. Its even easier to get rtaded to the team you want as well.
Lebron is a top 3 player of all time, but its not even debatble that he runs away when he cant win. One more loss against Boston and he will do it again.
We don't know what Jordan would have done if his franchise didn't give him an incredible wealth of talent surrounding him. He was also never constantly measured up to a singular player purely by number of championships.
But if Jordan played in today's era for a dog-shit franchise where would only be measured based on whether he won enough rings to match a player before him, then his choices would have been to either would have joined a team that had the proper supporting cast, or he would have toiled away to earn personal accolades without the team hardware.
If it were harder to do that during Jordan's era and the era of stars before him, then it stands to reason that the divide between the haves and have-nots was harder to erase and so already-established dominant situations were easier to maintain (the Bulls outside of Jordan).
Blaming LeBron for players having the freedom to improve their own playing situation misses the mark, especially when it preceded him.
We don't know what Jordan would have done if his franchise didn't give him an incredible wealth of talent surrounding him. He was also never constantly measured up to a singular player purely by number of championships.
But if Jordan played in today's era for a dog-shit franchise where would only be measured based on whether he won enough rings to match a player before him, then his choices would have been to either would have joined a team that had the proper supporting cast, or he would have toiled away to earn personal accolades without the team hardware.
You are forgetting that the rosters that have "hampered" James were the players he basically hand picked. he wanted Love to come to cleveland. He wanted them to re-sign smith and thompson to terrible contracts. He wanted Jamison/Shaq at the end of his cleveland first run. He has basically pushed players out for other players via of trade.
It took Jordan to year 7 to get a ring. It took Pippen/grant to year 4 so the notion that he won as soon as he got them is false. It took years for them to get a ring together. And are we claiming that Phil was a guaranteed success coach when hired? The Bulls took a chance on him and it worked. There was a lot of risk hiring him. Just much there was a huge risk GS did by hiring Kerr.
And lets not act like Lebron never played with great player. The difference is Lebron picked who he wanted to play with. Whereas Jordan played with guys who were picked by the team. Who was the greatest FA the Bulls signed during the Jordan era?
If it were harder to do that during Jordan's era and the era of stars before him, then it stands to reason that the divide between the haves and have-nots was harder to erase and so already-established dominant situations were easier to maintain (the Bulls outside of Jordan).
When you look at hte dynasties - lakers, celtics, pistons to an extent - most of their players were drafted by the team. Kareem is the exception as he was traded.
Now, players are traded away to the teams that they want to go to. Because the players have the teams by the throat.
Blaming LeBron for players having the freedom to improve their own playing situation misses the mark, especially when it preceded him.
All the players you mentioned were near or on their last legs.
Malone was 40 years old
Payton was 35
Allen was 32
Drexler was 33 and played 2 more years
Again who was the big FA that Bulls signed during Jordans career?
If players had the capacity to move around and control where they played as it is the case now, then perhaps those Bulls teams don't win six rings as other stars around the league team up. Perhaps David Robinson teams up with Stockton and Malone. Maybe Reggie joins Shaq and Penny, etc.
If players had the capacity to move around and control where they played as it is the case now, then perhaps those Bulls teams don't win six rings as other stars around the league team up. Perhaps David Robinson teams up with Stockton and Malone. Maybe Reggie joins Shaq and Penny, etc.
But thats the thing - it SHOULDNT happen. The ideas that players should control where they go is great for them - bad for the league. Yeah - superteams have dominated I get that. I mean these playoffs havent been good whatsoever.
There has to be a better solution than what is going on. Cause if Lebron loses 1 more game, he is going to bolt again to create an even bigger superteam.
Its not good.
Why is it necessarily bad for the league if LeBron were to bolt and go to a completely different team, re-energize that fan base, and allow general fans to see how LeBron is able to play and interact with a completely different cast of characters? Doesn't that create intrigue, mystery, a different narrative, and perhaps a chance to see an all-time great perform in a different capacity?
If I am Kerr, you start to worry about klay.
That corner 3 instead of a layup works when you play shitty teams. You take that when sucking and losing... inexcusable
Bell can’t guard anyone in this game... haha
now warriors go small no bigs on switxhes anymore
Warriors chucking too many 3s again. Rockets have this game IMO.
Houston is ending this in Oakland.
Good kick by Harden, he's got to stop shooting.
that is not a cramp
Series over in 6. Kerr out coached by dantoni???? That has to fucking hurt.
Series over in 6. Kerr out coached by dantoni???? That has to fucking hurt.
What are your issues with Kerr? Without Iggy his options are pretty limited for that fifth guy
Series over in 6. Kerr out coached by dantoni???? That has to fucking hurt.
Pretty spot to on.
Why Green is even touching the ball on that last possession, and why Reggie Miller stupidly thought it was a clever play, is beyond me...
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Is all on Steve Kerr.
Series over in 6. Kerr out coached by dantoni???? That has to fucking hurt.
What are your issues with Kerr? Without Iggy his options are pretty limited for that fifth guy
Livingston is the experience guy and needs to be in the game. Quinn cook shooting a ball down with less than a minute to go is mind numbing dumb.
1. Fadewaway 20 footer at the buzz with two defenders on shooter.
2. Quinn Cook shooting the ball.
3. A 15 foot runner by Curry.
4. A pass to draymond green with 2 seconds near the 3 point line.
Not good.
If Paul doesnt miss time, it is there year.
Don't have Quinn Cook on the floor late for any reason. Fuck it... just go out there and play 4 on 5.
Find the weakest defender. High screen, get the switch and go ISO.
Its terrible basketball, not enjoyable to watch. Whats funny is GS is running more ISO than ever with Durant, and their offense has sucked for a few games now too.
I just hope Rockets-Celtics.
When these two teams aren’t scoring at least 110 a piece against each other, something is off...
Haha, wouldn't shock me at all if LeBron tries to join them!
If Iggy was healthy, the series would be over. They are also missing a big piece in McCaw. They have 6 centers on the roster who are essentially useless in todays game. I do expect GS to get some different guys and soon.
But wouldnt it be a hoot if Lebron signed with Houston so we can see 3 of the 5 most ball dominant players go 1 on 1 all game? yay!!!
When these two teams aren’t scoring at least 110 a piece against each other, something is off...
Letting them get more rough is the only way to stop blowouts. Fans love offense, but fans don't love games over with 20 minutes left.
That 4th quarter last night is *everything* the NBA wants.
Insane.
They havent been questionable - they have been horrendous. He has it had pretty easy the last 3 years, pressure is on now for him to make better decisions.
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coaching decisions have been questionable at best of late.
They havent been questionable - they have been horrendous. He has it had pretty easy the last 3 years, pressure is on now for him to make better decisions.
Dep, Haha. I was trying to be kind in my description, but you're right.
He'll really be missed on the defensive end because he's been leaning very hard on Curry. And that's been a major disruption to the Warriors' O.
He'll really be missed on the defensive end because he's been leaning very hard on Curry. And that's been a major disruption to the Warriors' O.
Series may be over if Iggy wasnt hurt.
Series may be over if Iggy wasnt hurt.
Or if Durant was some version of his normal great self in the 4th quarter.
Man, he's been awful...
But let's not forget that the Warriors have what's by all accounts a unique and admirable culture, something everyone who plays for them notes and admires, and something that will help them lure players or retain their own, and that didn't just happen.
But let's not forget that the Warriors have what's by all accounts a unique and admirable culture, something everyone who plays for them notes and admires, and something that will help them lure players or retain their own, and that didn't just happen.
Excuse me I said this would be over if Iggy played. The loss of Iggy and mccaw are massive in this series.
However cook shouldn’t have been in. Hell nick young is more proven. But Livingston is a main cog and has done it. He doesn’t chuck it up on a 5-4 down 1. With Paul out of the play... they could have gotten any shot they wanted.
You're acting like Kerr benched a known crunch time performer for someone who shot well below 30% on the year. Neither is the case.
You're acting like Kerr benched a known crunch time performer for someone who shot well below 30% on the year. Neither is the case.
Livingston doesn’t shoot a 3 in that situation. You have 4 eventual hall of gamers on the floor. And Quinn cook shoots it?
Sorry, no dice. Pivotal game in series. He shouldn’t be on the floor.
That sort of trust stems from the same mentality that allowed Kerr to listen to a young staff member's idea to start Iggy over Bogut in their first finals. Mark Jackson might have fired the guy just for offering the suggestion at all.
CAnt even hold a lead with love hurt.
Pathetic effort by the Celtics.
Shows how bad Horford has been......
27 million a year to get routinely outplayed by Tristan Thompson and Larry Nance.
Most over paid player in the game.
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hownis horford an all star? he is a very good player but i dont see all star
27 million a year to get routinely outplayed by Tristan Thompson and Larry Nance.
Most over paid player in the game.
i have been ripped for saying this, but i still dont see it..
Guy is a good 4-5th player on a team. You cant consistently lay eggs like he does in the playoffs and be considered an all-star. Kevin Love would be ripped to shreds and has been for better performances.
Brad Stevens - might want to throw a few double teams at Lebron. Unless you are really afraid of JR Smith and the Larry Nance's of the worlds.
Last game Lebron was too tired, not he will be the GOAT. The ebb and flows of a superstar.
Fucking nonsense. Boston has ONE road win in the playoffs. The east fucking blows.
8 rebounds
45% from the field.
27 million a year. OVERRATED
8 rebounds
45% from the field.
27 million a year. OVERRATED
Has anyone argued with you? I think everyone agrees lol
In 2015-2016
15 points and 3 rebounds per game.
At some point, you have to look at Horford and say either play to your contract or your gone.
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13 points
8 rebounds
45% from the field.
27 million a year. OVERRATED
Has anyone argued with you? I think everyone agrees lol
You defended him last game. And many posters here have argued that he is worth the contracct and a legit All-Star.
To me? He is on the trading block.
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In comment 13975770 dep026 said:
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13 points
8 rebounds
45% from the field.
27 million a year. OVERRATED
Has anyone argued with you? I think everyone agrees lol
You defended him last game. And many posters here have argued that he is worth the contracct and a legit All-Star.
To me? He is on the trading block.
All I said was scoring has never been a main asset to his game. It’s not like he average 30 points a game this year. The offense doesn’t run through him. It didn’t when they first signed him and it doesn’t now. And yes I think he’s overrated and overpaid. But the Celtics don’t.
11 conference finals games.... 9 double digit wins. Terrible.
It actually does make sense, people don’t have to be awake early the next day.
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Game 7 tomorrow night in Boston will be fun. Of course it starts at 8:30 on a long weekend, which makes no freaking sense, but so be it.
It actually does make sense, people don’t have to be awake early the next day.
Eh, I get your point. I just wish it was like a 3:30 game. Game 7 of Warriors Rockets-which is 99.9% likely to happen-is 9:00 PM EST on Memorial Day. That makes no sense.
11 conference finals games.... 9 double digit wins. Terrible.
Just saw this
Updated Al Horford per-36-min stats for the series....
With Tristan Thompson ON COURT (142 mins): 9.1 pts, 7.8 rebs, 3.0 asts, 32% FG, 25% 3P, Celtics -3.4 NetRtg
With Tristan Thompson OFF COURT (67 mins): 22.7 pts, 9.7 rebs, 4.3 asts, 62% FG, 44% 3P, Celtics +19.2 NetRtg
Thompson has definitely had an impact since he came back into the rotation in game 7. Horford was very effective in the first two rounds
And in that stretch HOU has outscored GSW by 19”
NBA needs more ratings!
It looks like he is throwing the game.
Lebron will single handily beat Houston himself. He wont even need Love.
Lebron will single handily beat Houston himself. He wont even need Love.
I’ll watch any matchup but GSW-CLE.
Layups are ok too.
+1
GS always a great 3rd quarter team. Need a huge quarter here, because Houston better in the 4th.
Kerr has to tell Durant to stop shooting the ball of 1 on 1 ISO. He is killing the Warriors.
Did they use too much energy?
Tip of the hat, just a terrific job by them overcoming all of the odds to do this.
Shaq and Kobe were really unlikebale.
So were pierces celtics.
I'd say! Worst 10 rebound, 9 assist, 4 steal, 5 block performance I ever did see.
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for most abysmal performance.
I'd say! Worst 10 rebound, 9 assist, 4 steal, 5 block performance I ever did see.
Imagine Cook's line if he was given the opportunity! haha
Oh and Durant needs to get his head out of his ass on Monday. My confidence level in the Warriors for game 7 dropped at least 50% as a result of tonight.
If Paul is healthy, and the if refs continue to let Houston get away with the physical brand of defense they’ve gotten away with a home, they should be in great shape to win. But those are interesting “ifs”...
I love it. Off tomorrow & off Tuesday so I'll be locked into both of these.
Counting down the seconds until 8:30.
Love being out is a huge break for the Cs.
I love it. Off tomorrow & off Tuesday so I'll be locked into both of these.
Counting down the seconds until 8:30.
Love being out is a huge break for the Cs.
to me it benefits the cavs, for at least this game, they play completely different with love out. they can play faster and they play smaller with green at the 4...
Zach Lowe nailed it when he said the Warriors don't feel like themselves without Iguodala on the floor. There's some sort of x factor in his presence that everyone acknowledges.
Yep already a better game than last. Being aggressive
I didn't catch the beginning, but I did tune in to see a LeBron and-one thwarted by a bad offensive call foul, followed by a three pointer the other way. Potential six point swing! I can't remember the last time I've seen James the subject of a bad offensive foul call like that.
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.
I didn't catch the beginning, but I did tune in to see a LeBron and-one thwarted by a bad offensive call foul, followed by a three pointer the other way. Potential six point swing! I can't remember the last time I've seen James the subject of a bad offensive foul call like that.
Thompson got a bad and 1 when he clearly walked. Other than that missed call both ways. No factor in this horrendous shooting.
I cant believe how bad Bostons offense is. There is no rhythm or reason for anything they do.
Yep was a foul
His hand absolutely got the ball first. Reverse angle showed it.
Marcus Smart is the worst shooter in the NBA.
He needs to play the whole quarter and make plays now. Enough with rozier and smart trying to be playmakers.
Their offense is based on holding it and taking a lot of pull up 3 and mid range jumpers.
Dont see how they can win this game.
Marcus smart continues to shoot for no reason.
Somehow Coach K couldnt get out of the first weekend of the NCAA tourney with him.
The East sucks. I mean Boston’s 3 best players are rozier Tatum and brown. 2 of them laid massive eggs tonight and are still within 3.
MASSIVE choker.
MASSIVE choker.
Your obsession with him is downright creepy.
Maybe Mr. Brad aint rewriting how to coach the game. You lose to this Cleveland team twice without Love? LOL.
ESPn did an article on whether you rather a superstar or Stevens???? Sit down Brad, you were a huge part of the problem. I would trade Brad Stevens in a nanosecond for Kyrie Irving.
Terry Rozier was brought in the game for this? lol. Comical coaching.
Stevens was the moron who brought him back in the game when it was close. Stevens got outcoached by Ty Lue. Not good.
If Houston wins tomorrow, no finals for me.
LOL, no he isnt. He is beating a shit team.
Jordan beats this team in 4. People not realizing how bad the East right now is just foolin themselves.
Maybe Mr. Brad aint rewriting how to coach the game. You lose to this Cleveland team twice without Love? LOL.
ESPn did an article on whether you rather a superstar or Stevens???? Sit down Brad, you were a huge part of the problem. I would trade Brad Stevens in a nanosecond for Kyrie Irving.
Terry Rozier was brought in the game for this? lol. Comical coaching.
I disagree completely. Stevens is the best coach in the league and it’s not even close. Brown was just as awful tonight. Tatum and Horford were the only ones that played well tonigth. Brad could only get so much out of a bunch of average players and scrubs. To make it to game 7 was remarkable.
Ok 2 shit teams playing each other and the team with the best player wins. Why is this a surprise?
Do you know how many times this Boston team won on the road in the playoffs?
ONCE. They beat a shitty Milwaikee team in 7 games. They beat a Philly team whose two best players are rookie and 2nd year player. And lost 2 close out games against a team without its 2nd best player.
Beating the east doesnt make him GOAT. Beating the west does.
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choked in this game
Stevens was the moron who brought him back in the game when it was close. Stevens got outcoached by Ty Lue. Not good.
Bingo. As much credit as Brad Stevens gets, he deserves to be raked over the coals for what he did tonight. WAY TOO OFTEN LeBron was allowed to have the ball in his hands without forcing someone else to make shots. I'd rather lose by 50 with Jeff Green and JR scoring 30 each than let LeBron get as many one on one opportunities as he did.
Horford was non-existent and Rozier/Smart both sucked badly.
I disagree completely. Stevens is the best coach in the league and it’s not even close. Brown was just as awful tonight. Tatum and Horford were the only ones that played well tonigth. Brad could only get so much out of a bunch of average players and scrubs. To make it to game 7 was remarkable.
Getting his ass kicked last year and lsoing to Lebrons worse team in 10 years makes him the best coach in the league? Horford sucked balls again tonight. NON-factor.
People overrate the shit out of people based on them beating worse teams.
NBA will get the tv matchup it wants and it wants LeBron.
A Hayward and Irving team led team, with Horford, Brown and Tatum is going to be the future in the East.
That said, LeBron James has absolutely done more with less this year, and I he's done that so many times, it almost gets lost.
Greatest of all time or not, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kareem, Wilt, J, none of them got teams to the finals with as bad of a team as James did tonight.
I can't stand anything about him, but he's unreal.
Ainge looking like a genius trading #1 and taking Tatum.
I doubt Smart is back in Boston.
I'd be surprised if they trade Horford.
Jordan played in 3 game 7s in his career. Never in the finals. The teams he had to go through to get to the finals were 10000000x better than the teams Lebron has to beat.
If Paul can’t play, maybe. That Cavs team isn’t good enough to beat Houston at full strength no matter what LeBron does
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I disagree completely. Stevens is the best coach in the league and it’s not even close. Brown was just as awful tonight. Tatum and Horford were the only ones that played well tonigth. Brad could only get so much out of a bunch of average players and scrubs. To make it to game 7 was remarkable.
Getting his ass kicked last year and lsoing to Lebrons worse team in 10 years makes him the best coach in the league? Horford sucked balls again tonight. NON-factor.
People overrate the shit out of people based on them beating worse teams.
Do you ever go back and read what you post? Man, you are absolutely grating. This thread alone for the last week is just you shitting your pants constantly. Do you even like basketball? You are insufferable.
My dad called me in the middle of the game when the Cavs cut it to three and I said, "they still look like they suck". It's crazy... they cut the lead down without even playing particularly well.
Bye then? Oh I remmeber the last time you shit your pants was when you were crying Eli was going to trial and the Giants organization would go through the coals.
How'd that turn out
he goes to la he has to get through golden state and houston...
he goes to sixers he has to move off the ball to play with simmons, dont see the fit..
where else is there for him to go?
Why would anyone take such a horrible player with a horrible contract? And he must kill dogs too
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because he cant beat GS. He can beat Houston though.
If Paul can’t play, maybe. That Cavs team isn’t good enough to beat Houston at full strength no matter what LeBron does
Houston has no one to guard Lebron. GS can at least rotate 3 guys on him. Plus, GS can score at will on them. I dont know if ISO ball will work against Cleveland.
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In comment 13976816 BigBlue4You09 said:
Quote:
I disagree completely. Stevens is the best coach in the league and it’s not even close. Brown was just as awful tonight. Tatum and Horford were the only ones that played well tonigth. Brad could only get so much out of a bunch of average players and scrubs. To make it to game 7 was remarkable.
Getting his ass kicked last year and lsoing to Lebrons worse team in 10 years makes him the best coach in the league? Horford sucked balls again tonight. NON-factor.
People overrate the shit out of people based on them beating worse teams.
Do you ever go back and read what you post? Man, you are absolutely grating. This thread alone for the last week is just you shitting your pants constantly. Do you even like basketball? You are insufferable.
LOL I was wondering too. Pretty sure Horford fucked his wife
Against a team win no Heyward or Irving...not that incredible.
Their offense the last two games was some of the worst Ive watched all year.
i look at it as mj best in his era and lebron best in his era..
it is two conpletely different games...
both greatest players of all time
Not good.
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In comment 13976825 dep026 said:
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because he cant beat GS. He can beat Houston though.
If Paul can’t play, maybe. That Cavs team isn’t good enough to beat Houston at full strength no matter what LeBron does
Houston has no one to guard Lebron. GS can at least rotate 3 guys on him. Plus, GS can score at will on them. I dont know if ISO ball will work against Cleveland.
The rest of Houston’s team is too good on the offensive end for the Cavs. Houston at full strength is going toe to toe with the warriors because they have enough perimeter scoring and that maligned defense held the warriors under 100 a couple of times in wins. Cleveland would win a maximum of 2 with LeBron, a banged up Love, and role players against the rockets
Not good.
This is always my favorite argument. Is it better to lose before the finals or in the finals?
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he will be 3-6 in the finals....
Not good.
This is always my favorite argument. Is it better to lose before the finals or in the finals?
age old question, same argument people use for brady vs montana
The rest of Houston’s team is too good on the offensive end for the Cavs. Houston at full strength is going toe to toe with the warriors because they have enough perimeter scoring and that maligned defense held the warriors under 100 a couple of times in wins. Cleveland would win a maximum of 2 with LeBron, a banged up Love, and role players against the rockets
Have to wait and see. But I think Lebron has a really good chance beating Houston.
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he will be 3-6 in the finals....
Not good.
This is always my favorite argument. Is it better to lose before the finals or in the finals?
It’s a moronic argument to make. The fact that LeBron is in the finals with this group is incredible.
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he will be 3-6 in the finals....
Not good.
This is always my favorite argument. Is it better to lose before the finals or in the finals?
Jordan played 11 full seasons with the Bulls (broken ankle 1 year, out of retirement the next) - he won 6 titles. This is year 15 for Lebron, and 3 titles is really, really great. But it aint 6.
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ou post? Man, you are absolutely grating. This thread alone for the last week is just you shitting your pants constantly. Do you even like basketball? You are insufferable.
Bye then? Oh I remmeber the last time you shit your pants was when you were crying Eli was going to trial and the Giants organization would go through the coals.
How'd that turn out
It kind of went exactly how I wished and said many times it would. Manning settled, didn't go to trial and didn't cause a problem for the team.
But seriously dude, your constant, repetitive, gnashing of teeth makes these threads so much less enjoyable.
Most of my post game reactions are based off my in game comments and pre game comments.
So basically, I am the man!
Fixed it for you.
In all seriousness though. This is typical post game reactions from everyone else too. Lebron plays great (which we all agree and thought he would) - then all of a sudden he is the GOAT, the best, did more with less... yada, yada, yada. We hear this every year when he plays. I mean, did anyone possibly think he was NOT going to be great? I expected them to win as well.
But the fact remains is this Celts team was not a championship caliber squad once they loss their two players. The road has gotten easier every year for Lebron to make it to the finals. So him getting there doesnt make him the GOAT.
The East is just really, really bad.
Their offense the last two games was some of the worst Ive watched all year.
But the Cavs aren't even a remotely good team if it weren't for LeBron. Would they even be nearly as good as they are now if you replaced him with Larry Bird or Magic Johnson? I doubt it.
He's top two at worst in the history of the league. When you're going up against the team with a player of that magnitude, you have your work cut out for you.
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Just accept it. Been that way for years. Don't get upset about it.
Most of my post game reactions are based off my in game comments and pre game comments.
So basically, I am the man!
dep, I never had an issue with you and hope never to, but you posted A LOT during this game and not in a discussion with others commenting on the gaame. It was like a running play by play feed. Just saying, when you are that outspoken on a game thread, you are painting a target on your back. Food for thought. I hate seeing you get killed like this.
Then again, I never understood how people could watch a big game and want to comment on a message board when their team is currently on. That's why I am never seen on game threads.
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is some awesome team must not have watched many games.
Their offense the last two games was some of the worst Ive watched all year.
But the Cavs aren't even a remotely good team if it weren't for LeBron. Would they even be nearly as good as they are now if you replaced him with Larry Bird or Magic Johnson? I doubt it.
He's top two at worst in the history of the league. When you're going up against the team with a player of that magnitude, you have your work cut out for you.
I have constantly say he is the 2nd best ever.
My point is him getting through the east isnt like moving mountains. Its reallly really bad basketball there. Hes an amazing basketball player... but getting through the east doesnt make you the GOAT. Thats my point.
Doesnt that show how bad the rest of the league is too? Cant it be both?
I mean, this game went 7 series that the closest game was decided by 8 points.more often than not he runs through it without any competition?
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You are consistently leading teams that would be looking up to these other sub-par teams of he weren't on them? Cleveland gets a top 3 pick if LeBron and nearly anyone else in the east swap teams.
Doesnt that show how bad the rest of the league is too? Cant it be both?
I mean, this game went 7 series that the closest game was decided by 8 points.more often than not he runs through it without any competition?
Yes, because he's so freaking good that the teams can't compete with his team, simply because he is on it!
Yes, because he's so freaking good that the teams can't compete with his team, simply because he is on it!
Then he should have no excuse in the finals this year, right? Thats my arguemtn. You want to say his team is dogshit, I agree. If you want to call him one of the greatest ever, I would agree. But if he is so freaking good - that whereever he goes - he wins no problem - then why is there a chance he loses 66% of the finals? I mean he was a Ray Allen 3 and a Draymond kick to the nuts away from being 1-7.
The point is winning through the East doesnt make him the GOAT. Beacsue the east is so bad that wherever he would go - they would make the finals. Now if he took a team like this through the west every year - I would agree with you. But beating Indy, Toronto, and Boston without its two best players isnt as impressive as GS beating Anthony Davis, Popevich, and Possibly Harden/Paul. Now THATS impressive, IMO.
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I
Yes, because he's so freaking good that the teams can't compete with his team, simply because he is on it!
Then he should have no excuse in the finals this year, right? Thats my arguemtn. You want to say his team is dogshit, I agree. If you want to call him one of the greatest ever, I would agree. But if he is so freaking good - that whereever he goes - he wins no problem - then why is there a chance he loses 66% of the finals? I mean he was a Ray Allen 3 and a Draymond kick to the nuts away from being 1-7.
.
Because those west teams are way, way better than his east teams, and it's actually a testament that he can usually will his team to one win in a series against them.
This isn't complicated. There is nothing mutually exclusive about him being so good that whatever team team he is on the east nearly automatically becomes the best team in that conference, but not the best team in the entire league. And if he did go to the West, I imagine that team would at worst make the Western Conference Finals. Even if it was a shitty West team like Phoenix or Dallas.
This is some amazing analysis.
You have an opinion that clearly isn't going to change. We get it.
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In comment 13976876 santacruzom said:
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I
Yes, because he's so freaking good that the teams can't compete with his team, simply because he is on it!
Then he should have no excuse in the finals this year, right? Thats my arguemtn. You want to say his team is dogshit, I agree. If you want to call him one of the greatest ever, I would agree. But if he is so freaking good - that whereever he goes - he wins no problem - then why is there a chance he loses 66% of the finals? I mean he was a Ray Allen 3 and a Draymond kick to the nuts away from being 1-7.
.
Because those west teams are way, way better than his east teams, and it's actually a testamen
This isn't complicated. There is nothing mutually exclusive about him being so good that whatever team team he is on the east nearly automatically becomes the best team in that conference, but not the best team in the entire league. And if he did go to the West, I imagine that team would at worst make the Western Conference Finals. Even if it was a shitty West team like Phoenix or Dallas.
Why can’t it be Lebron is really really good and the east has been really really bad?
I mean lie saying it was the best game of his career? His careeer has been validated. Seems extreme to me
LBJ is LBJ. He's unreal.
An era that is mostly unwatchable as the NBA converts to Rucker Park in nicer arenas, younger than ever with one and dones, no hand-checking, no hard fouls, and the death of the conventional big man.
If the 24 year old Michael Jordan played in this era he’d average a triple double while averaging 50 ppg.
An era that is mostly unwatchable as the NBA converts to Rucker Park in nicer arenas, younger than ever with one and dones, no hand-checking, no hard fouls, and the death of the conventional big man.
If the 24 year old Michael Jordan played in this era he’d average a triple double while averaging 50 ppg.
I absolutely loathe the "greatest" arguments in basketball because the eras change so much more fundamentally than in other sports.
James has had a big hand in morphing the league, both with copy-cats and attempts to slow him down. The league for many certainly hasn't been unwatchable as evidenced by the numbers, though I totally get why folks raised in a different time dislike the game. It's a much different game.
And although Michael Jordan likely be the best player on the court no matter what era, in the era of postionless basketball, 6'8" point-forwards and generally faster players 2-5, I actually don't think Jordan would be as effective as we was in his era. There are just so many more players and teams in the league focused on stopping his brand of ball.
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in his era. Undoubtedly.
An era that is mostly unwatchable as the NBA converts to Rucker Park in nicer arenas, younger than ever with one and dones, no hand-checking, no hard fouls, and the death of the conventional big man.
If the 24 year old Michael Jordan played in this era he’d average a triple double while averaging 50 ppg.
I absolutely loathe the "greatest" arguments in basketball because the eras change so much more fundamentally than in other sports.
James has had a big hand in morphing the league, both with copy-cats and attempts to slow him down. The league for many certainly hasn't been unwatchable as evidenced by the numbers, though I totally get why folks raised in a different time dislike the game. It's a much different game.
And although Michael Jordan likely be the best player on the court no matter what era, in the era of postionless basketball, 6'8" point-forwards and generally faster players 2-5, I actually don't think Jordan would be as effective as we was in his era. There are just so many more players and teams in the league focused on stopping his brand of ball.
Here’s the counter argument to your last point which you absolutely may be right. Jordan played in an era where centers/power forwards dominated the game and clogged the lane. In this era with 1-5 able to shoot, the floor would be more spread for him to get to the basket. And with the goal is to shoot 3s I could see his assists rising as well.
The game has changed dramatically the last 2-3 years and individual stats are going through the roof. You can’t predict what Jordan would have done in this era... but I could see him having a 35/10 year really easily.
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In comment 13976940 bw in dc said:
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in his era. Undoubtedly.
An era that is mostly unwatchable as the NBA converts to Rucker Park in nicer arenas, younger than ever with one and dones, no hand-checking, no hard fouls, and the death of the conventional big man.
If the 24 year old Michael Jordan played in this era he’d average a triple double while averaging 50 ppg.
I absolutely loathe the "greatest" arguments in basketball because the eras change so much more fundamentally than in other sports.
James has had a big hand in morphing the league, both with copy-cats and attempts to slow him down. The league for many certainly hasn't been unwatchable as evidenced by the numbers, though I totally get why folks raised in a different time dislike the game. It's a much different game.
And although Michael Jordan likely be the best player on the court no matter what era, in the era of postionless basketball, 6'8" point-forwards and generally faster players 2-5, I actually don't think Jordan would be as effective as we was in his era. There are just so many more players and teams in the league focused on stopping his brand of ball.
Here’s the counter argument to your last point which you absolutely may be right. Jordan played in an era where centers/power forwards dominated the game and clogged the lane. In this era with 1-5 able to shoot, the floor would be more spread for him to get to the basket. And with the goal is to shoot 3s I could see his assists rising as well.
The game has changed dramatically the last 2-3 years and individual stats are going through the roof. You can’t predict what Jordan would have done in this era... but I could see him having a 35/10 year really easily.
Part of me thinks in a wide-open league a young Jordan averages 40 a game going to the hole constantly, and the other part can't imagine 87 & 88 Jordan averaging plus 35 a game while shooting sub .200 beyond the arch in this era.
Just in terms of acceleration and vision to the rim I think Durant is the player who is the closest to Jordan today (not that close mind you) -- and even he at 6-9 is shooting plus .400 beyond the arch.
Now clearly older Jordan proved he could shoot with effectiveness later in his career. That likely would just have accelerated.
And although Michael Jordan likely be the best player on the court no matter what era, in the era of postionless basketball, 6'8" point-forwards and generally faster players 2-5, I actually don't think Jordan would be as effective as we was in his era. There are just so many more players and teams in the league focused on stopping his brand of ball.
Jordan got up and down the court like he was running the last leg of the 4X100 relay. He'd have zero problem with this supposed widespread speed in today's game.
This is a younger league with poorer fundamentals thanks in large measure to the destruction caused by the AAU level that promotes one on one over fundamental and team development. I have a son going thought it now - I taught him team basketball concepts. But that has little value in the AAU world.
Name the great ball defenders now? I can name Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, Jordan, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, Sidney Moncrief, Terry Porter, Hersey Hawkins, Mo Cheeks, Michael Cooper, etc, all from Jordan's era. And he owned all of them in an era where hand checking and forearm use was encouraged. In today's spread concept, Jordan would be getting to the rim at will with no fear of a Malone, Laimbeer, Eaton, Jabbar, Mahorn, Lanier, Gilmore, Mutumbo, Ewing, Olajuwon, Sampson, etc waiting to contest his shot.
Jordan's first step and explosion to and up where magic gifts from God. He'd feat on today's game.
He got bigger to deal with the pounding he took. But as one who saw him play, I can tell you his most athletic self was his first four years in the league. It was, and is to this day, the most amazing dominance on a basketball court I have ever seen athletically. He was fast, long, wiry, strong, unlimited energy, and fearless. And, this is the key, he had those attributes on both ends of the court.
LeBron is a helluva a player. But he's in a race for second. Hell, I don't think he's that much better than Bryant. But that's a different discussion... ;)
I was a little young for 80s Jordan, but have been an NBA devotee since around 90 or so. Again, I'm not an era aficionado, I think it's impossible. There are fantastic defenders in the NBA right now who don't have the liberty of hand-checks and hard fouls, who have to play straight up and win match-ups with their feet.
And I'm not saying Jordan wasn't unwordly quick, and wouldn't even be unwordly quick in today's game. But the 5 guys on the court today are orders of magnitude faster than the 5 guys on the court in 87. He did that.
Jordan's effect on the game is still felt today. 15 years after he retired and 20 years after he was himself the league is still a point-forward wing dominated game with defenses going small to stop it.
I apologize for being a snot to you on this thread. Go Rockets! (Says former Bay Area guy who endured the Warriors sucking for 15 years.)
Absurd? Really? Bryant was a 9X first team all defense. That’s nearly twice the # for LBJ. Sorry, but Bryant was a better two way player. And if you’d like me to walk you through the quality of teams Bryant had to beat in the west to make the finals, versus the year after year clown shows LeBron faced, just let me know and I’ll gladly oblige...
Oh no.
Dear God, no.
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Comparing Kobe to LBJ is absurd. LBJ is by far the more dominant player. It's not really even close.
Absurd? Really? Bryant was a 9X first team all defense. That’s nearly twice the # for LBJ. Sorry, but Bryant was a better two way player. And if you’d like me to walk you through the quality of teams Bryant had to beat in the west to make the finals, versus the year after year clown shows LeBron faced, just let me know and I’ll gladly oblige...
You conveniently forget what Kobe did after Shaq left and before Pau got there.
They were the clown shows.
They arent calling shit on the Rockets.
GS missing a ton of free throws as well.
GS missing a ton of free throws as well.
durant will probably sign with houston in off season..
Curry hits a 3, scott foster calls a foul on GS for breathing on a rocket. This is criminal. Damn right criminal he is in this game.
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because he is getting killed on defense and on the boards. Miller talking about it now.
GS missing a ton of free throws as well.
durant will probably sign with houston in off season..
It's true. This league is so fucking stupid. I watch literally 5 games a year (3 or so Knick games and maybe 2 game 7s if they happen) and it still isn't incredibly interesting. Love playing basketball, but the favoritism of the stars, the stacking, the tanking, the lack of defensive intensity...it's so gross.
They did that to Kawhi Leonard last year when San Antonio was running away with Game 1 of the WCF...turned the entire series
They arent calling Capela on over the backs either. He has had many this half.
He has really been disappointing this series outside the first two games. All he wants to do is shoot pull up jumpers over Capela.
I am playing pinochle.
They did miss the murder by green on Gordon early in the quarter.
When you see the play from behind... Harden grabbed him and moved him back. The one angle showed it perfectly.
refs went from calling everything to calling nothing
Nauseating to watch them.
Nauseating to watch them.
happens with every great team, first couple of years they are the likeable young guys then people get sick of them...
will happen with yankees as well if they go on a run...
May not seem big but 7 isnt insurrmountable and they have done it before. He got some rest and now should be able to go full tilt in the 4th.
GS expanded a TON of energy. Do they have enough to finish it?
Nauseating to watch them.
Agreed. I can't stand watching this Rockets team play.
will happen with yankees as well if they go on a run...
I dont know anyone who isnt a yankee fan that likes/roots for them....haha. I think everyone is sick of them (even though I know they are f'n scary as hell.)
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on the planet is that not a movign screen on Bell? He moved him the equivalent of 10 feet
refs went from calling everything to calling nothing
Yeah, it's a mess. I went from being horrified by the crew to... well, still horrified, but for completely different reasons.
This has been their offense all year. Without Paul, they are a different offense.
I am not sure this hack a thing is a good idea.
Every other Rocket either upset or shaking hands, and he was laughing. F'n douche. Capela showing a lot of emotion. Guy had a monster year.
19-78 for the arc in the series. Keep chucking.
I'm not going to criticize MDA, Harden, or the refs. The other guys on the Rockets simply had to make some of those shots in the second half. They would've won the game if they made 20% of those open looks, let alone 35-40%. They just couldn't make a single freakin' open shot.
Every other Rocket either upset or shaking hands, and he was laughing. F'n douche. Capela showing a lot of emotion. Guy had a monster year.
19-78 for the arc in the series. Keep chucking.
What? He was laughing? I didn't see that at all. You're talking about the shot of him walking shirtless?
True. He could have realized how he sucked again in a big spot and needed to laugh it off.
History will show his stat line looked good... but outside of some garbage points at the end... he was ineffective again in a big spot.
No they won’t sweep them. Lebron is good enough to win 1-2 games himself. He will have a historic stat line but he will have the ball so much... it’s impossible not to have it.
i get it is golden state and cleveland again but lets not act like they just walked through the playoffs...
cleveland was on the brink twice and survived...
golden state was on the brink this series...
yes they both made it but it was not a cake wall like most years
No they won’t sweep them. Lebron is good enough to win 1-2 games himself. He will have a historic stat line but he will have the ball so much... it’s impossible not to have it.
Typically I’d agree. But I think getting past the Rockets will loosen the Warriors up - they were on life support until Paul got hurt, and were very tight - and they could get on a real roll. They are playing someone they don’t fear, and know Cleveland has significant limitations.
I think Houston wins that with a healthy Paul. I know it's their offense and it's what they've done all season. But my god after 20 missed 3's in a row, maybe try to get to the basket and draw a foul? That was brutal.
I think Houston wins that with a healthy Paul.
You may be correct. But you are really dismissing the injury to Iguodala. He may not be the Iggy of old and not as good as the other 4.... but he is a main cog. Defending, rebounding, and anotehr ball handler. With him in there for games 4 and 5, they may and probably would have won at least 1 if not both. The Rockets really victimized both Bell and Looney all series - when in reality - it would have been Iggy out there.
I remember when Malone won MVP over MJ in '97. Game 1 of the '97 Finals, Malone misses 2 FTs that would have given the Jazz a lead. Bulls get the ball back & MJ nails the game winner at the buzzer.
That was fun.
I think Houston wins that with a healthy Paul. I know it's their offense and it's what they've done all season. But my god after 20 missed 3's in a row, maybe try to get to the basket and draw a foul? That was brutal.
i get warriors have 4 all stars but they were also missing a big part of their team that allows them to go small in iguodola...
yes they have gotten some luck bit the finals theynlose draymond gets suspended...
they were not losing last year tk thenspurs even with kawhi just was not happening...
id argue if igudola does not get hurt they do not lose game 4 and this series pribably doesnt go 7
True.
But they did lose Green in the 2016 finals for game 5 because Green couldn’t stop kicking people with his basketball Tourette’s. And that proved very costly in that series.
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it could be about absolutely anything. People show frustration in different way, I sometimes laugh when mad. Very weird thing to get upset over.
True. He could have realized how he sucked again in a big spot and needed to laugh it off.
History will show his stat line looked good... but outside of some garbage points at the end... he was ineffective again in a big spot.
Man, you really hate body language.
Even worse? Missing 26 straight threes. The odds of that happening for Houston with their averages in a sample of 44 threes is something like 1 in 25,000.
As a Knicks fan who remember Starks in Game 7, perhaps Houston fans finally understand that feeling of shock.
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with opponent injuries. Kyrie and Love both out for the 2014 finals, Kawhi goes out in game 1 last season, and now CP3 out for game 7. All while they've stayed relatively healthy, besides Steph dealing with some issues.
True.
But they did lose Green in the 2016 finals for game 5 because Green couldn’t stop kicking people with his basketball Tourette’s. And that proved very costly in that series.
Intentional (or habitually reckless) acts by Draymond Green causing Draymond Green to get suspended can not be considered bad luck or anything like injuries to opposing players.
Man, you really hate body language.
Nah, just the James Hardens of the world.
Its kind of poetic justice him not getting a couple calls in a big game when he has flopped and deceived officials for years.
Everyone knew that would be the Finals
Everyone knew that would be the Finals
Yep..... especially when both were down 3-2 and had to win games 7 on the road. Especially with Boston missing their top 2 players and Rockets missing their most indespensible one. It was also known before the season that Houston would miss 27 straight 3s in a game 7 at home.
This narrative has got to stop. Both teams were not guarantees to make it based on how the played this series.
Either way, the odds were astronomically low.
The narrative is spot on, just because you didn’t sweep didn’t mean it wasn’t likely to happen.
He's a great talent and he obviously doesn't suck... but for all of the good he does, some of the chucking is just indefensible. Super, super low percentage looks.
Anyway... no matter how close we came to a different Final, we're here once again.
I'd love to think the Cavs have a shot, but they're just undermanned. I expect this to go much like last year. And then I get to hear about how LeBron's finals record sucks and thus, he doesn't deserve the accolades.
Groundhog Day: NBA Version.
The narrative is spot on, just because you didn’t sweep didn’t mean it wasn’t likely to happen.
so you knew the cavs were going to the finals down 3-2?
you knew the warriors were going to finals down 3-2?
He's a great talent and he obviously doesn't suck... but for all of the good he does, some of the chucking is just indefensible. Super, super low percentage looks.
Anyway... no matter how close we came to a different Final, we're here once again.
I'd love to think the Cavs have a shot, but they're just undermanned. I expect this to go much like last year. And then I get to hear about how LeBron's finals record sucks and thus, he doesn't deserve the accolades.
Groundhog Day: NBA Version.
Its either that narrative or how he beats the odds of beating teams in the East that are actually worse than his. And because of that he is the GOAT.
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a little adversity but the 2 better teams won as expected. Injuries are a part of the game, even with Paul if GS had Iggy then that could even be advantage GS.
The narrative is spot on, just because you didn’t sweep didn’t mean it wasn’t likely to happen.
so you knew the cavs were going to the finals down 3-2?
you knew the warriors were going to finals down 3-2?
When Paul got hurt, I figured GS would win. LeBron being down 3-2 against a team that overachieved is a bet I’d always take if I were a betting man.
I didn’t know for certain of course, but Cleveland was likely winning once Boston couldn’t close out earlier. The other series was more of a toss up but GS has too many horses and are a better team. The better team won’t bother series.
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He's a great talent and he obviously doesn't suck... but for all of the good he does, some of the chucking is just indefensible. Super, super low percentage looks.
Anyway... no matter how close we came to a different Final, we're here once again.
I'd love to think the Cavs have a shot, but they're just undermanned. I expect this to go much like last year. And then I get to hear about how LeBron's finals record sucks and thus, he doesn't deserve the accolades.
Groundhog Day: NBA Version.
Its either that narrative or how he beats the odds of beating teams in the East that are actually worse than his. And because of that he is the GOAT.
8 straight finals. Don’t fight it. Don’t rationalize it. Just embrace greatness. The NBA is better with LeBron in it and we are all witnesses.
Why do you have to pick a side?
It's too bad Houston can't figure out a way to trade Harden for LeBron because that roster is perfect for LeBron. Surround him with great 3-point shooters in Gordon and Paul who can also create offense on their own. Solid perimter defenders in Ariza and Mbah a Moute, and a rangy big in Capela who can be great on the pick and roll.
Now THAT would be an awesome 7-game series with Golden State.
Why do you have to pick a side?
This has been my argument. Why cant Lebron be awesome and have it easy at the same time?
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
Didnt Harden choose to leave 2 HOF's in their prime because he wanted a couple more million a year?
Lebron left two teams in which he help establish the roster because they werent good enough as well.
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
Again, you can call him one of the 2-3 greatest ever AND recognizing how bad the East.
Everyone says how bad his surrounding cast is - but take the best player off every East team for the last 8 years - and you can say the sae thing about those teams as well.
Boston this year would have beaten Lebron with Heyward and Irving, IMO. But went into battle with a 20 and 21 year old rooke/2nd year player and a career backup as their 3 best players. I think about 6 teams in the West would love to be in that position as well.
He was the 6th man. I am not disagreeing that OKC may have blundered the tax management - but he wanted a max contract and OKC saw him as the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. I thought I saw the offer was somewhere between 1-2 million less than the mx per year.
So he wanted more money at the risk of going to a lesser team. That was his choice. He got all the stats and accolades that he wanted. Unfortunately, he may never get the ultimate team award.
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I think it's really minimizing what he's done to say he "has it easy"
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
Again, you can call him one of the 2-3 greatest ever AND recognizing how bad the East.
Everyone says how bad his surrounding cast is - but take the best player off every East team for the last 8 years - and you can say the sae thing about those teams as well.
Boston this year would have beaten Lebron with Heyward and Irving, IMO. But went into battle with a 20 and 21 year old rooke/2nd year player and a career backup as their 3 best players. I think about 6 teams in the West would love to be in that position as well.
You can take the best player off every East team for the last 8 years - but those teams weren't in the Finals.
LeBron's were. So, what's your point?
Take Lebron off of this year's Cavs team and I doubt they even make the playoffs in the shitty east.
Reasonable people can differ on whether Lebron or Jordan is better, but using Lebron's record in the finals compared to Jordan's as if that ends the discussion is just lazy analysis when you consider the teammates that Jordan had in Chicago and the ones that Lebron had in both CLE tenures.
Take Lebron off of this year's Cavs team and I doubt they even make the playoffs in the shitty east.
Reasonable people can differ on whether Lebron or Jordan is better, but using Lebron's record in the finals compared to Jordan's as if that ends the discussion is just lazy analysis when you consider the teammates that Jordan had in Chicago and the ones that Lebron had in both CLE tenures.
Kyrie and Love would be better than anyone other than Pippen on those Bulls teams.
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
You give credit where credit is due so I can tip my hat to LeBron for doing something like this. But the East has been putrid since he arrived, except for a few years when Ainge got Garnett and Allen together with Pierce, and Lebron certainly struggled to get by them.
The 2001 Sixers that got to the finals were atrocious. Go look at that roster. That makes the Cavs roster look competent.
It's impressive because LeBron is still getting to the Finals with about as little help as a player can possibly have.
The analysts were saying as time ran out in Game 7 that this actually might be his greatest accomplishment and I don't think that's crazy to say.
No matter what you think of the state of the EC right now, there's really no other way to spin this - it's a pretty remarkable feat.
Clearly getting Boston without Kyrie was a greater advantage than Rockets with Paul for 2 games.
I don't think the Warriors or the Cavs saw the best their collective leagues had because of injury.
When analyzing an individual it's hard not to factor how good their team is as a first factor.
Cavs without LeBron, I'd say 30 win lottery team.
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I think it's really minimizing what he's done to say he "has it easy"
Even without Kyrie and Heyward, Boston was not an easy matchup.
The team around LeBron is hideous. How many supporting casts this poor have been playing in NBA Finals?
The East is certainly not murderers row - but to win 24 straight EC playoff series' and get to 8 straight Finals is just something you can't shit on no matter how badly you want to.
You give credit where credit is due so I can tip my hat to LeBron for doing something like this. But the East has been putrid since he arrived, except for a few years when Ainge got Garnett and Allen together with Pierce, and Lebron certainly struggled to get by them.
The 2001 Sixers that got to the finals were atrocious. Go look at that roster. That makes the Cavs roster look competent.
I don't need to - I remember who was on that team. And Iverson got a lot of credit for carrying that team as far as he did - as he should have.
Did he get them there 8 times in a row?
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He's a great talent and he obviously doesn't suck... but for all of the good he does, some of the chucking is just indefensible. Super, super low percentage looks.
Anyway... no matter how close we came to a different Final, we're here once again.
I'd love to think the Cavs have a shot, but they're just undermanned. I expect this to go much like last year. And then I get to hear about how LeBron's finals record sucks and thus, he doesn't deserve the accolades.
Groundhog Day: NBA Version.
Its either that narrative or how he beats the odds of beating teams in the East that are actually worse than his. And because of that he is the GOAT.
Again: of course those teams are worse than his, because they don't have him on them.
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and Brady and Montana. Why can't people recognize that they are great, but were also blessed to be in absolutely amazing situations that other greats would have killed for?
Didnt Harden choose to leave 2 HOF's in their prime because he wanted a couple more million a year?
.
Did he? Everything I've read says that decision was one the Thunder made, not Harden.
2 different pkayers and 2 different eras, 2 great players..
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the Bulls, the team was still a title contender the very next season and might've gotten back to the finals without him if it wasn't for Hue Hollins phantom foul call during the Knicks series.
Take Lebron off of this year's Cavs team and I doubt they even make the playoffs in the shitty east.
Reasonable people can differ on whether Lebron or Jordan is better, but using Lebron's record in the finals compared to Jordan's as if that ends the discussion is just lazy analysis when you consider the teammates that Jordan had in Chicago and the ones that Lebron had in both CLE tenures.
Kyrie and Love would be better than anyone other than Pippen on those Bulls teams.
That's a pretty significant "other than" considering how much higher Pippen ranks on the all time list than Irving or Love likely ever will.
And almost any team on the West would probably make the WCF if he were on them.
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not Harden's. He asked for the contract he was worthy of and they didn't want to pay the tax. Don't remember him demanding a trade though.
He was the 6th man. I am not disagreeing that OKC may have blundered the tax management - but he wanted a max contract and OKC saw him as the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. I thought I saw the offer was somewhere between 1-2 million less than the mx per year.
So he wanted more money at the risk of going to a lesser team. That was his choice. He got all the stats and accolades that he wanted. Unfortunately, he may never get the ultimate team award.
Did OKC ever go that high on that offer? I didn't think they did but maybe I'm wrong. He's proven that he was worthy of that ask though. OKC had just gone to the first of what should have been multiple finals with that trio. And they blew it up to save money. It was an asinine decision. In a way they've gotten what they deserve by going cheap at that point.
Frustrating thing for those fans is they've since decided to start paying more, but for a Russ extension who they'll never win with, and with guys like PG13 and Melo. If they'd just paid Harden when they should have, they'd have a title by now.
I don't need to - I remember who was on that team. And Iverson got a lot of credit for carrying that team as far as he did - as he should have.
Did he get them there 8 times in a row?
That's not the point I'm making, but no. I was just showing how relatively poor teams, compared to the team in the West, have been able to get out of the East for 20 years.
13 out of the the last 17 years the winner has come out of the west. It took Miami's big 3 and the Celtics big 3 to break the spell. It's been pure dominance because the talent shift has essentially been so one-sided.
And two of those Ws were Cleveland erasing the 3-1 deficit against the Warriors and Ray Allen pulling the off the miracle in game 6 in 2013. Otherwise, it's even more lopsided...
Harden wants money - ( New Window )
Kyrie Irving, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen, and Kevin Love may have a word to say about this. Five future HOF'ers.
The notion that Lebron has little to play with in his entire career is just false.
He was also a 6th man who wanted a max contract which had never been done before. He was offered 2 million less than the max, and he said he wanted more money. And thats all fine and dandy because that is his right.
But when Harden is bitching last night that he lost to a team with 4 all-stars - well that could have been him too. He chose 2 million more a year over staying with a potential dynasty.
He was a 17/4/3 player his last year in OKC and he wanted max money - as an owner - that is hard to justify. It looks silly now - but he wouldnt have had the same career as he has if he stayed with KD and RW.
Thats fine. Harden has had a remarkable regualr season run that makes it look worse. But my opinion is still pretty unchanged on this.
1. He doesnt have the same career as a 3rd wheel.
2. He was offered 14 million a year, said he wanted 2 more million.
3. He was having a good (not superstar or great) career up until that point, and he was still a 6th man.
He was offered a contract and openly stated he wanted more money a year (2 million to be precise) and made it known. And that is well within his rights as a player. He should always do whats best for himself. But he had a chance to be with a dynasty for MANY years, and he decided not too. If you want to say OKC botched it or underestimated how good he would be - thats fine. But the fact is they offered him more money than any 6th man in the NBA was ever offered that was near the max.
He wanted more money, but I also suspect that he also wanted to be "the main guy". He knew he would never be that in OKC. IMO, thats the real reason he wouldnt sign the contract.
So for him to cry last night that he lost to a team with 4 all-stars - well sorry, I dont buy it. That could have been him.
Klay is 50th
Green is 62nd.
If Harden signed, in his first year he would have been 31st, ahead of Serge. Making 1 million less than RW and 4 million less than Durant.
The contract offered was more than fair.
And Jordan should respond... and John Stockton was a much, much better player than Isaiah Thomas.
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that someone would blame Harden for the OKC trade debacle. Nobody takes a discount on their second contract. Not only that, OKC wanted him at a discount to "keep the team together" but refused to include a trade kicker. The owner was cheap and their GM made it worse by making a bad deal. In hindsight, the luxury tax hits wouldn't have even been that bad given the cap/tax jumps in subsequent seasons. OKC botched it, plain and simple.
He was also a 6th man who wanted a max contract which had never been done before. He was offered 2 million less than the max, and he said he wanted more money. And thats all fine and dandy because that is his right.
saying he was the "6th man" is meaningless. He played the 3rd most mins on the team.
funny how you frame it as Harden choosing money over a dynasty, and not OKC making that choice. Regardless, what's relevant is that OKC controlled Harden for TWO more seasons. They didn't have to trade him. It was THEIR choice, not Harden's.
It's only hard to justify if you're unfamiliar with this sort of thing. The Rockets paid him right away, so it wasn't hard to justify for him. That summer guys like Eric Gordom and Hibbert signed max offer sheets. Most teams in the league would have paid him. Or, they simply would have kept him and worried about it later. There was no rush to do a deal.
saying he was the "6th man" is meaningless. He played the 3rd most mins on the team.
funny how you frame it as Harden choosing money over a dynasty, and not OKC making that choice. Regardless, what's relevant is that OKC controlled Harden for TWO more seasons. They didn't have to trade him. It was THEIR choice, not Harden's.
It's only hard to justify if you're unfamiliar with this sort of thing. The Rockets paid him right away, so it wasn't hard to justify for him. That summer guys like Eric Gordom and Hibbert signed max offer sheets. Most teams in the league would have paid him. Or, they simply would have kept him and worried about it later. There was no rush to do a deal.
I eliminated all the stuff I said to shorten the quote.
1. Fair point. I am wrong in that regard.
2. He came out and said he wanted more money, so yes he did make that decision as well. OKC could have kept him. I saw that they excercised his option in 2011, so I thought he had only 1 more year (the first year he played in Houston). And I agree it was OKC's choice to trade him, and it was also Harden's choice NOT to sign the extension. People are acting like he wasnt offered a contract. He was, and it wasnt an awful one.
3. The justification could be proven in what you wrote. Eric Gordon and Roy Hibbert got max deals and they were mistakes. There's a risk. There was no guarantee Harden would turn out to be a great regular season player (and I think we can all agree he wouldnt be this good on the Thunder with two better players). The rockets took the risk and it worked out for them. There was no guarantee.
As far as them waiting and trading him - you are right, they could have went onto the next season and traded him if things werent going well or they thought he wasnt coming back. That I agree with you. And I believe this is where OKC made the mistake.
But the contract offered to him on the extension as regards to the rest of the league was more than fair IMO.
If you want to tell me OKC wanted to preserve cap flexibility going forward and they didn't think a team with those 3 players (and Ibaka) making that kind of money was going to be a finals contender - that's at least indicative of some sort of plan. But that's not what they were thinking. The contract they were offering was going to put them at the cap anyway. They just wanted to save a few million in luxury tax money - when they were already a profitable franchise. It was shortsighted on so many levels...
Apparently, OKC gave him a few hours to make his decision.
If true, good move dipshits.
...oh shit. It WAS Kendrick Perkins!
Lebron vs Jordan? It’s a debate for sure but anybody dismissing Jordan as not complete is off the mark. Way off. There wasn’t anything he couldn’t do. I couldn’t imagine him with no hand check or hard fouls under the basket. He would blow by everybody and finish at the rim all day long.
...oh shit. It WAS Kendrick Perkins!
eh, the Perk contract is sort of defensible. It was only 4/36 and nobody knew he was going to be completely washed up by the time he was 29. What isn't defensible is that OKC never used the amnesty on him. They were simply too cheap...
Lebron vs Jordan? It’s a debate for sure but anybody dismissing Jordan as not complete is off the mark. Way off. There wasn’t anything he couldn’t do. I couldn’t imagine him with no hand check or hard fouls under the basket. He would blow by everybody and finish at the rim all day long.
Right. ESPN is in full LeBron-a-thon mode right now. They are all in on LeBron having secured the GOAT mantle.
You would think he beat beat the Thomas led Pistons, the Erving led Sixers and the Bird led Celtics to get the finals the way they are packaging this result.
Jordan's '88 season when he won MVP and DPOTY was as good as it gets. LBJ is a very good two way player, but I don't think he's quite in the rarefied air Jordan is with offense and defense (Jordan was 9X, first team all defensive team, and frankly, it should have been at least 3 more times...)
If you want to tell me OKC wanted to preserve cap flexibility going forward and they didn't think a team with those 3 players (and Ibaka) making that kind of money was going to be a finals contender - that's at least indicative of some sort of plan. But that's not what they were thinking. The contract they were offering was going to put them at the cap anyway. They just wanted to save a few million in luxury tax money - when they were already a profitable franchise. It was shortsighted on so many levels...
Enzo I wasn’t aware of the trade kicker being the main point.
Thank you. I just think the initial offer was pretty fair. As far as the other details mentioned... OKC did drop the ball.
All-time NBA Ranking - ( New Window )
the NBA HOF is pretty inclusive compared to other sports so they're both getting in eventually. That said, Bosh was a two-way player who made 11 all-star teams. He's a lock. Love is something less than a lock but he's got the ring, made 5 all-star teams, and two all-nba teams. Like bosh, his pre-LeBron stats were ridiculous. He's getting in.
I remember that list. As with any list, there is going to be controversy.
But let me say this, Shaq over Bryant is wrong. When Bryant won 2 titles without Shaq, literally carrying the Lakers, that knocks Shaq below Bryant.
Bryant was a GREAT two way player. Yes, he shot too much, but he left it all on the line on both ends of the court.
Yes Kobe won without him but he also cost the Lakers a champ vs Det. Shaw dominated DET but Kobe wanted to be the man. It cost them the Championship vs an inferior team.
2. They wanted him to start, but harden preferred to come off the bench because he thought it was better for the team.
Yes Kobe won without him but he also cost the Lakers a champ vs Det. Shaw dominated DET but Kobe wanted to be the man. It cost them the Championship vs an inferior team.
And Shaq got owned in a four 4 game sweep by Hakeem and the Rockets in '94 as the prohibitive favorites.
And Olajuwon getting the best of you isn’t a knock. Especially for a young player. Shaq played a good series.
Unlike Kobe in 04 who gift wrapped a championship for DET.
While Shaq was scoring at will and shooting 70%, Kobe decided to shoot all day at a 35% clip.
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This list was done like two years ago, have Pippen 25th all-time. All-time NBA Ranking - ( New Window )
I remember that list. As with any list, there is going to be controversy.
But let me say this, Shaq over Bryant is wrong. When Bryant won 2 titles without Shaq, literally carrying the Lakers, that knocks Shaq below Bryant.
Bryant was a GREAT two way player. Yes, he shot too much, but he left it all on the line on both ends of the court.
if you're into the newer stats (WS, Box +/-, VORP), Gasol led the lakers in nearly all of them during both title seasons so the idea that Kobe "literally carried" them is a joke. And during the supposed prime years of his career post Shaq/pre Gasol, Kobe didn't get out of the first round. Why wasn't he able to carry those teams?
Regardless, I take Shaq's career and numbers over Kobe any day.
if you're into the newer stats (WS, Box +/-, VORP), Gasol led the lakers in nearly all of them during both title seasons so the idea that Kobe "literally carried" them is a joke. And during the supposed prime years of his career post Shaq/pre Gasol, Kobe didn't get out of the first round. Why wasn't he able to carry those teams?
Regardless, I take Shaq's career and numbers over Kobe any day.
Every team competing for a title, needs to have a Batman and Robin. So it took the Lakers some time to solve that after Shaq left. There is no such thing as a one man show, so I can't hold that against Bryant. The West has been brutal for 18 years.
When Shaq was fat and out of shape in 02 and 03, it was Bryant who carried his ass. And Shaq has admitted as much.
You can certainly lean on the new stats to a point, but here is a test - you need to make free throws to win or tie a game or you need a bucket to tie or win a game, who you going to? Shaq or Kobe?
It should be a pretty straightforward, quick answer.
shaq vs. Kobe? Get real.
Here’s a question tho. Would Shaq have success or as much in today’s game? His guarding the pick and roll would be entertaining.
Every team competing for a title, needs to have a Batman and Robin. So it took the Lakers some time to solve that after Shaq left. There is no such thing as a one man show, so I can't hold that against Bryant. The West has been brutal for 18 years.
no such thing as a one man show? But you just said Kobe "literally carried them". That's an awfully quick 180 you're doing there, lol.
some facts, just for fun...
Playoff PER in 2002: Shaq, 28.3 / Kobe, 20.5
Playoff PER in 2003: Shaq, 30.6 / Kobe 22.2
All the other relevant stats tell the same story. Oh, and Shaq won the finals MVP 3x in a row.
of course basketball is slightly more complicated than that. But if reducing it to something so limited and simple makes you feel better about your ridiculous assertion, have at it.
it's a quick answer to a stupid question. Congrats.
— Drew Shiller (@DrewShiller) May 29, 2018
Once you saw the rear angle, it was clear as day Harden should have been called for a foul. But then again, he forgot about these types of plays after bitching about the officiating after the game.
This was NOT a moving screen.
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Not close.
Lebron vs Jordan? It’s a debate for sure but anybody dismissing Jordan as not complete is off the mark. Way off. There wasn’t anything he couldn’t do. I couldn’t imagine him with no hand check or hard fouls under the basket. He would blow by everybody and finish at the rim all day long.
Right. ESPN is in full LeBron-a-thon mode right now. They are all in on LeBron having secured the GOAT mantle.
You would think he beat beat the Thomas led Pistons, the Erving led Sixers and the Bird led Celtics to get the finals the way they are packaging this result.
Jordan's '88 season when he won MVP and DPOTY was as good as it gets. LBJ is a very good two way player, but I don't think he's quite in the rarefied air Jordan is with offense and defense (Jordan was 9X, first team all defensive team, and frankly, it should have been at least 3 more times...)
Lebron is a “very good two way player”?
Oh man I’ve heard it all now.
I also love how he includes himself in the class of Lebron and MJ. He’s not even close.
You can certainly lean on the new stats to a point, but here is a test - you need to make free throws to win or tie a game or you need a bucket to tie or win a game, who you going to? Shaq or Kobe?
It should be a pretty straightforward, quick answer.
Quick answer?
If you want to reduce it to something this simplistic, then the answers are quick.
Bucket? Shaq, he led the league in FG% 10 times.
Free throws? Kobe. He's a SG and Shaq is a C.
I also love how he includes himself in the class of Lebron and MJ. He’s not even close.
while he was still playing I seem to recall several posters here who felt he was better than MJ. It was like an Onion article.
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Jordan Bell started to stick his ass out but then Harden pulled him down to make it look like an egregious moving screen. It wasn't pic.twitter.com/hpqpJuM5x9
— Drew Shiller (@DrewShiller) May 29, 2018
Once you saw the rear angle, it was clear as day Harden should have been called for a foul. But then again, he forgot about these types of plays after bitching about the officiating after the game.
This was NOT a moving screen.
I actually understand why Harden was mad. They really did miss a few fouls in threes that they normally call for him, and they *certainly* normally call against the Warriors. Harden probably just can't understand what changed. I'm with him there, but I like the change.
I mean, David West is trying to guard him. I bet nygiants16 could get 14-16 against him :)
They need Derrick rose and his 70% three point shooting in the playoffs haha
Jordan bell still sucks balls. And draymond is killing the warriors .
Cavs 7-0 run without Lebron.
Dumbass.
Tie game. Feels like Cleveland should be up 8-10.
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cannot play the rest of this series. Maybe give Hood another chance. Idk but not Clarkson
They need Derrick rose and his 70% three point shooting in the playoffs haha
Jordan bell still sucks balls. And draymond is killing the warriors .
Cavs 7-0 run without Lebron.
Two of the four from those trades have been complete disasters. And they let Wade go to give Hood playing time and Wade showed in the Philly series he could still contribute
And tomahawking uncontested dunks haha. I bet Kerr almost killed him.
It’s his only skill. Offensive rebounds well that and setting illegal screens.
Gotta love the Cavs chances here.
That was a huge 3 for green. Got to give him kudos for that.
Warriors offense last 3 minutes turned into ISO ball which is stupid from there. Durant and curry with awful shots.
Cavs look like they are stealing home court. Good time to ignore media for a few days.
Lmao me too. Gotta say tho, they are a REALLY good bank for average joe , they tke care of you
I've heard that Christ couldn't even hit a curveball.
But I think that's all they win.
Lebron lowering shoulder to basket
Lebron turn around
Lebron step back 3
I am going turn around.
He hasn’t been touched by god like Barkley.
Lebron lowering shoulder to basket
Lebron turn around
Lebron step back 3
I am going turn around.
pick and roll switch, drives creates contact and gets call
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He's hands down the greatest athlete that's ever walked the earth not named Christ
He hasn’t been touched by god like Barkley.
Lmao damn that's true man
Can lebron do it one more time.
And Draymond had a lane violation on that missed FT that they could have easily called.
seen it before with the knicks...
remember that game against the roxkets he thought knicks were down and shot a 3 with like 10 seconds left..
Prevented the 4.7 second winning shot to kill the Cavs
But now LeBrons gotta go extra crazy savage in OT
Let's go LeBron!!! I don't even like the guy at all but I can't help but root for him like crazy the last few finals, he just shows he deserves it
+1 him and His ex teammate Shump
Holy shit...
Very cool
Holy shit...
and people wonder why lebron wants to leave
He 100% thought they had a 1 point lead. He had no idea what the score was.
you can see he says to lebron that he thought they were winning
LeBron deserves SOME help.
JR smith just never changes .. sad.
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I seriously cannot fucking believe he just did that.
Holy shit...
and people wonder why lebron wants to leave
Lebron was EXTREMELY vocal in the Cavs bringing Smith back. Made a ton of public comments.
That's JR for you. Unreal.
That's JR for you. Unreal.
and he was the knicks 2nd best player when they wom 54 games
he threw a punch he has to be
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And predictably, GS is going to run away with this in OT now.
That's JR for you. Unreal.
and he was the knicks 2nd best player when they wom 54 games
Hard to believe.
thomspkn over reacted to nothing...
They played more than well enough to win.
Lol. Great post.
Warriors are really missing Iguodala, especially on D
..
And JR Smith. My gosh that guy is stupid.
And JR Smith. My gosh that guy is stupid.
were yiu watching, what was the rrwson for him to foul livingston with 2 seconds left?
and watch again he tried to hit him witb an elbow and then he walked away like he was hard...
he is a moron
Link - ( New Window )
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Your four HOFers barely survived a game against a one-man team. Brilliant stuff.
Warriors are really missing Iguodala, especially on D
The problem is the same guy who once scored 32 points in a Finals game 7 (Draymond) is too scared to shoot the damn ball now. It's like they're playing 3 on 5 because their 5th player is usually garbage unless it's Livingston, who's okay at best. Every time Draymond makes a shot now, people celebrate like they're shocked.
I enjoyed the game. LeBron was amazing. JR was stupid... I'm stunned (not really). The Warriors are also being too damn lazy on defense. The Cavs aren't even setting good picks and the Warriors just let them get the matchup they want with LeBron.
Golden State is a loathsome group of players
Golden State is a loathsome group of players
it was absolutely the right call, block all the way
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In comment 13980764 bceagle05 said:
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Your four HOFers barely survived a game against a one-man team. Brilliant stuff.
Warriors are really missing Iguodala, especially on D
The problem is the same guy who once scored 32 points in a Finals game 7 (Draymond) is too scared to shoot the damn ball now. It's like they're playing 3 on 5 because their 5th player is usually garbage unless it's Livingston, who's okay at best. Every time Draymond makes a shot now, people celebrate like they're shocked.
I enjoyed the game. LeBron was amazing. JR was stupid... I'm stunned (not really). The Warriors are also being too damn lazy on defense. The Cavs aren't even setting good picks and the Warriors just let them get the matchup they want with LeBron.
Warriors finally played defense in OT, that made the difference
Cavs got multiple bad breaks from the officials. Topped off by ejecting a guy for a shooting foul on the elbow and then allowing that clown Draymond to escalate the situation
simple question, if lebron stands still instead of sliding left does durqnt go by him?
he slid into durant after durant already was making his move, it was a block clear as day...
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
Cavs got multiple bad breaks from the officials. Topped off by ejecting a guy for a shooting foul on the elbow and then allowing that clown Draymond to escalate the situation
umm no they called it a charge..
second go watch it again thompson threw an elbow that is why he was ejected...
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is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
he doesnt have to be still but he cant be sliding into the guy to get the charge...
lebron slid into him
LeBron had already established his position right before contact was made. Beyond that, they called it a charge on the court and he was not in the restricted area.
You can't change a call like that once you've made it. It's horseshit.
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An on-ball, block/charge situation occurs when contact is made between a defensive player and an offensive player who is moving in a particular direction or trying to change directions. A defender is permitted to establish his legal guarding position in the path of a dribbler, thus “beating him to the spot.”
LeBron had already established his position right before contact was made. Beyond that, they called it a charge on the court and he was not in the restricted area.
You can't change a call like that once you've made it. It's horseshit.
lebron did not establish anything
It was too close to change the initial call. Unless it was blatant, they shouldn't have overruled their initial call. It was garbage.
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It’d be like reviewing a pass interference penalty just because it’s late in the game and an important call.
Cavs got multiple bad breaks from the officials. Topped off by ejecting a guy for a shooting foul on the elbow and then allowing that clown Draymond to escalate the situation
umm no they called it a charge..
second go watch it again thompson threw an elbow that is why he was ejected...
My mistake obviously, meant to say charge
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is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
It was too close to change the initial call. Unless it was blatant, they shouldn't have overruled their initial call. It was garbage.
agree to disagree arc, dont thi k he was established at all
thomspkn over reacted to nothing...
Durant, Curry and even Green are all friends with LeBron. I'm surprised Thompson didn't consider that.
But he was likely just pissed that the Warriors scored a bunch of points in OT to win, like the assholes that they are.
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In comment 13980785 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
For some stupid reason, they can also review whether or not he had established position.
I really don't think that should be reviewable. We're getting to a point in sports where we're micro-reviewing every single aspect and it's just overkill.
They called it a charge, it should have stayed that way.
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tristan decided to be a dirt bag because curry and lebron were talking, and now they are laughing together...
thomspkn over reacted to nothing...
Durant, Curry and even Green are all friends with LeBron. I'm surprised Thompson didn't consider that.
But he was likely just pissed that the Warriors scored a bunch of points in OT to win, like the assholes that they are.
I don’t know the man but I’m pretty confident Lebron and Draymond are not friends. And there’s clearly tension with Steph
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In comment 13980761 nygiants16 said:
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tristan decided to be a dirt bag because curry and lebron were talking, and now they are laughing together...
thomspkn over reacted to nothing...
Durant, Curry and even Green are all friends with LeBron. I'm surprised Thompson didn't consider that.
But he was likely just pissed that the Warriors scored a bunch of points in OT to win, like the assholes that they are.
I don’t know the man but I’m pretty confident Lebron and Draymond are not friends. And there’s clearly tension with Steph
draymond and lebron are very much friends..
and curry and lebron were lsughing after the game...curru pstgame said it was silly trash talk.
You could check out an interview or two that might challenge your opinion of him, but what's the fun in that?
Not sure what’s so funny, Green has invested into fitness centers and credits LeBron for his help and how he approaches things.
You could check out an interview or two that might challenge your opinion of him, but what's the fun in that?
Relax, don’t be so sensitive. Good for Draymond, I’m glad he’s successful off the court. He’s still a complete clown on it though.
Congrats on the win. Must be fun to get to root for that team.
You could check out an interview or two that might challenge your opinion of him, but what's the fun in that?
Yep, read an article in GQ about him. Not sure why Kyle is talking out of his ass when he knows nothing about him.
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He lives in an area where they grow on trees.
You could check out an interview or two that might challenge your opinion of him, but what's the fun in that?
Relax, don’t be so sensitive. Good for Draymond, I’m glad he’s successful off the court. He’s still a complete clown on it though.
Congrats on the win. Must be fun to get to root for that team.
You acted like the idea of him being into business is absurd. I can relax and call you out on that simultaneously.
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In comment 13980789 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13980785 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
For some stupid reason, they can also review whether or not he had established position.
I really don't think that should be reviewable. We're getting to a point in sports where we're micro-reviewing every single aspect and it's just overkill.
They called it a charge, it should have stayed that way.
Restricted area initiated the review. That's the crock of shit here, it wasn't close.
I was wrong to imply he didn’t have serious business ventures. Sorry to you both
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In comment 13980807 schabadoo said:
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In comment 13980789 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13980785 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
For some stupid reason, they can also review whether or not he had established position.
I really don't think that should be reviewable. We're getting to a point in sports where we're micro-reviewing every single aspect and it's just overkill.
They called it a charge, it should have stayed that way.
Restricted area initiated the review. That's the crock of shit here, it wasn't close.
Back to what actually matters, this Is the part that is hard to understand. Charge can only be reviewed if the restricted area call has to be reviewed first. Lebron was not even close to the restricted area. Should have never gone to the monitor in the first place
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In comment 13980807 schabadoo said:
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In comment 13980789 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13980785 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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is elevating. IDKWTF Mark Jackson and Van Gundy were talking about.
Yes you can. You don't necessarily have to be completely planted. It's more about being outside the restricted area and having positioning.
That was a charge.
And what were they reviewing? They said restricted zone, but obviously that can't be it.
Why are they using this excuse to not actually review the area, but flip the call?
For some stupid reason, they can also review whether or not he had established position.
I really don't think that should be reviewable. We're getting to a point in sports where we're micro-reviewing every single aspect and it's just overkill.
They called it a charge, it should have stayed that way.
Restricted area initiated the review. That's the crock of shit here, it wasn't close.
Yeah, you're right - it was clear as day that he wasn't. He was like a foot outside of it. So stupid.
Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
What’s missing in this whole thing is that George Hikk, who a ton of people here had a man crush on last tear, choked.
Make your free throws.
Now the rule is dumb as shit... but they enforced it against Amare in Phoenix.
Now the rule is dumb as shit... but they enforced it against Amare in Phoenix.
they killed the knicks with it in 97 when ewing took 1 foot onto the court
Watch the replay - it is not even close to a charge.
BUT - it is horseshit to be able to review a judgement call, especially since the reason they went to the monitor was for the restricted zone. He wasn't even close to being in it.
But it is the NBA being the NBA. They always seem one step removed from being the WWE in the way end games are handled.
Whether it was a block or charge is irrelevant. It shouldn’t have been able to be reviewed at all because he clearly wasn’t in the restricted area, and reviewing a judgement call is bad practice in the first place.
But I’m beating a dead horse st this point. It doesn’t change the fact that if Hill just makes a free throw or JR isn’t a moron, they probably still win
But I don't know how you review that call, let alone overturn it and I always prefer officials get it right, even if it causes a slow down in the game.
LeBron was in a legal guarding position, facing Durant and he beat Durant to the spot. LeBron is allowed to keep moving laterally (as long as it's not into the player) just as Durant is allowed to keep moving on his path. Durant wasn't able to get his head and torso around LeBron and so the contact was his fault.
It's a coinflip as to whether that gets called a charge or a block. To reverse the call, though, was an egregious overstep, in my opinion.
It's J.R. Smith. All the talent in the world, but he is maddeningly unfocused and stupid.
It was very close. He beat him to the spot. Some movement. A very tough call. There is no right call here because it is too close.
It was BS that they changed it.
Plus you cannot slide once the offensive player is in the air. Feet set or not (and I dont think they were either). Basically you are saying its ok to plant your feet and lean all the way to the left or right as the guy jumps.
if george hill makes 1 free throw it is over, we are not talking about any of this
Yes almost 5 seconds I think, plenty of time for them to score. Not sure if they had a timeout left though.
ok not over but the game was still in their hands...
Here are screenshots of the play in action. LeBron had legal guarding position facing Durant and beat Durant to the spot. He is allowed to still move laterally to his left and his right foot can still slide.
Most notably, look at where LeBron gets to in picture 6. Look where LeBron's left leg (his outside leg) is planted (use the dotted semicircle as a frame of reference).
Now, in pictures 7 and 8, look at the angle Durant takes and look at where Durant's lead leg (right leg) goes and use the same semi-cirlce as a reference. Durant's goes right into LeBron's torso. Durant's lead leg in inside LeBron's outside leg.
It's not like Durant clipped LeBron on the outside of LeBron's left side. He he LeBron right in his center.
Even more absurd, look how far away LeBron was from the restricted area. How was that even reviewed?
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on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
Yes almost 5 seconds I think, plenty of time for them to score. Not sure if they had a timeout left though.
They did have a timeout, the announcers noted Kerr told them to call immediate TO whether Hill made or missed the 2nd (assuming GS got the rebound)
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and not sideways and slipping underneath with his right foot sliding the entire time? Very strange how a group of people see this so differently.
Here are screenshots of the play in action. LeBron had legal guarding position facing Durant and beat Durant to the spot. He is allowed to still move laterally to his left and his right foot can still slide.
Most notably, look at where LeBron gets to in picture 6. Look where LeBron's left leg (his outside leg) is planted (use the dotted semicircle as a frame of reference).
Now, in pictures 7 and 8, look at the angle Durant takes and look at where Durant's lead leg (right leg) goes and use the same semi-cirlce as a reference. Durant's goes right into LeBron's torso. Durant's lead leg in inside LeBron's outside leg.
It's not like Durant clipped LeBron on the outside of LeBron's left side. He he LeBron right in his center.
Even more absurd, look how far away LeBron was from the restricted area. How was that even reviewed?
I noted the restricted area earlier, it doesn’t matter. You can just step in front of someone and slide under them. The restricted area is irrelevant to this argument.
They reversed the call because it is clearly not a charge.
I hate that it was reversed, but Lebron was never set, nor was he in a position that Durant went to. Durant went to the left of him (from our view)
I dont see Lebron clearly taking it into the chest. Especially as he is sliding to his left.
He doesn’t have to take the shot on the chin.
Defenders don’t have to be statues. Some movement is ok before the contact.
It was a toss up call even after watching it in slow motion from several angles.
It should not have been changed.
The Cavs didn't get this 50/50 call. Nor did they get the 70/30 or 80/20 calls. Lebron was playing against the warriors, the refs AND even his own teammates...
As to the play, I don't see how LeBron slid under Durant. He moved laterally and established himself in Durant's path before Durant, thereby beating Durant to the spot. In that case, the contact was initiated by Durant. That LeBron's right leg was still sliding is irrelevant as well.
They reversed the call because it is clearly not a charge.
I hate that it was reversed, but Lebron was never set, nor was he in a position that Durant went to. Durant went to the left of him (from our view)
I disagree. It looks to me that LeBron's and Durant's shoulders are parallel, especially considering the wide angle Durant comes in from and then Durant goes into the center of LeBron's body, with Durant's leg clearly inside of LeBron's.
It's a bang-bang play, a close call, and I have no idea how it was reviewed, let alone reversed.
In other amusing news, JR claiming he knew it was tied this morning. Lulz
I disagree. It looks to me that LeBron's and Durant's shoulders are parallel, especially considering the wide angle Durant comes in from and then Durant goes into the center of LeBron's body, with Durant's leg clearly inside of LeBron's.
It's a bang-bang play, a close call, and I have no idea how it was reviewed, let alone reversed.
I am looking at the last two pics you showed. My evidence is that is body and right leg are moving as contact occurs is pretty easy.
In the 2nd to last picture, you can see the back of James' Jersey cleary. Name and number. His right leg is exteded out. Now in the last picture you can barely see the back of his jersey where it clearly twisted from the prior frame.
The only thing that was in the same place from the two frames is the left foot. He clearly moves from the last two stills and since is Durant is going up and James is sliding/twisting/moving or whatever - it makes it a block. You cant move side to side once the guy starts his shooting motion. Lebron did.
The VP of referees said that the block call was the right one.
Again, LeBron is allowed to move laterally so long as he beats Durant to the spot and establishes legal guarding position before Durant starts his upward motion.
I typically hate how block-charges are officiated because of how players use gather steps and how many players hunt for charges.
In this case, I thought it was a charge, but it could have gone either way. I just can't believe they reviewed it under false pretenses and then changed such a close call.
This is going to be a sweep.
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Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
Nah, he was never a smart player here.
this is why durant went to golden state, he knew he could make mistakes and not be under the microscope 24/7 , because there were 3 other all stars...
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In comment 13980816 Sean said:
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Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
Nah, he was never a smart player here.
he was the 2nd best player on a 54 win team, he abaolutely had a stretch where hr was playing great basketball...
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In comment 13980842 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13980816 Sean said:
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Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
Nah, he was never a smart player here.
he was the 2nd best player on a 54 win team, he abaolutely had a stretch where hr was playing great basketball...
Okay, but he had mental lapses, did stupid things, was out partying through all hours of the night during the playoffs and then didn’t live up to his contract here. And that 54 win season which everyone loves to discuss, was followed up with a 37-45 record and NYK hasn’t made the playoffs since.
All the more reason why it shouldn't be overturned, if all of us here can't come to a conclusion then it's inconclusive!
But yes, JR is an idiot and I'm not really sure why they continue to put up with him. There was a time when he still contributed enough on the court to make it worth the bonehead plays. He has not been worth the trouble the last two years. They need to cut his minutes.
So. F*cking. Weak. Just man up to your F up JR.
I can "forgive" Hill for missing the FT. Players miss free throws all the time. Sometimes they just don't go in. Not knowing the score at that moment is beyond unforgivable.
Plus, you can read his lips saying to LeBron "I thought we were up" so to now backtrack makes no sense.
Also, if he thought it was tied with 4.7 seconds left, why would he dribble it back to the scorer's table?
Eh I wouldn't say that. The Warriors often get blown out in Cleveland. It most likely will only happen once, but could definitely happen twice.
They're also lucky Klay Thompson's injury wasn't more serious, and that luck may not hold.
At least with the Tuck Rule, they actually were attempting to apply a terrible rule correctly.
You dont stop Lebron. But what Iggy does is defend better than Looney and Bell - who are basically defenseless out there. Plus Iggy is a better offensive option. Another passer/slasher/ocassional shooter. Bell and Looney are scrap pile pickers. Where as Iggy is a vital cog in their offense as well.
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last night was probably the best chance for the Cavs to make it a series.
Eh I wouldn't say that. The Warriors often get blown out in Cleveland. It most likely will only happen once, but could definitely happen twice.
They're also lucky Klay Thompson's injury wasn't more serious, and that luck may not hold.
GS is always good for a game where Curry makes 3-5 silly passes to the other team, Green gets fouled/thrown out, Klay cant hit the backside of the barn - and in that game Durant goes off and they lose by 12. Ill give that one in game 3. Then they come back and win the next 2.
51/8/8 on 19-32 shooting. I'm not sure how he will be able to top that, especially as the Warriors make adjustments throughout the series and Iguodala comes back (which will help the Warriors on both ends). When that isn't enough for Cleveland to win, it's a sad state of affairs for fans watching the Finals hoping for a good series.
Then next you you have those 2 plus Hill/clarkson combining to make 61 million!!!
They were better off Keeping Rose/Crowder not only as a better players standpoint but also financial one as well.
The Cavs biggest problem, and the reason they aren't a legitimate threat to the Warriors, is that they don't have any two-way players. LeBron can't exert the same energy on defense that he used to while carrying the offense.
Meanwhile, Golden State has superlative defenders in Draymond and Iguodala who keep the ball moving on offense, with good-to-great defenders in Klay and Durant who are also excellent offensive players.
LeBron is surrounded by 3-and-no-D guys and in many games, they have become "no-3-and-no-D" players. LeBron the GM is partially at fault, but these guys have to knock down their 3's at above-average clips to give them a chance in the series.
The Cavs biggest problem, and the reason they aren't a legitimate threat to the Warriors, is that they don't have any two-way players. LeBron can't exert the same energy on defense that he used to while carrying the offense.
Meanwhile, Golden State has superlative defenders in Draymond and Iguodala who keep the ball moving on offense, with good-to-great defenders in Klay and Durant who are also excellent offensive players.
LeBron is surrounded by 3-and-no-D guys and in many games, they have become "no-3-and-no-D" players. LeBron the GM is partially at fault, but these guys have to knock down their 3's at above-average clips to give them a chance in the series.
Derrick Rose this postseason proved he wasnt garbage. And Crowder was a defender and shooter he could rely on.
The problem is Lebron built a team he thought he could dominate with. A big who can rebound and defend on perimeter. He took all shooters (Smith, Korver, Love, Clarkson, Hill, etc...) all guy who open the floor for him to dominate. So lebron goes and gets 40-50, but these guys touch the ball every once in awhile. You cant get rhythm or flow that way. Look at the Warrios - everyone touches the ball almost if not every possession. Lebron, harden, Westbrook and Wall live in ISO world. I am not saying they are slefish but they hold the ball for the majority of the shotclock and either shoot it or pass it to the open guy. The problem is only 2, maybe 3 guys touch the ball on a possession. So yes they get assists, but rarely a hockey assist.
Rose can still score and get his own shot, which NO guard on cleveland can do. Rose proved to be a capable scorer for the Knicks last year and in the playoffs for Minny. He is not a guy you want starting or playing 30 minutes. but hes a guy who can give Lebron a break on offense.
I LOLed when LBJ said "my players" before quickly correcting himself & saying "my teammates".
The Cavs don't have any two-way players. Blame LeBron, blame the front-office, blame whomever, but it doesn't change the reality that they don't have defensive talent. Neither Rose nor Kyrie would have changed that.
The Cavs don't have any two-way players. Blame LeBron, blame the front-office, blame whomever, but it doesn't change the reality that they don't have defensive talent. Neither Rose nor Kyrie would have changed that.
Well people complain when Lebron doesnt have this or doesnt have that. He was responsible for the roster construction. You said he has no one else that can create. rose can create. You said he doesnt have enough defensive help. Crowder helped that. You said he doesnt have enough help... Kyrie hels that.
No one is saying that Rose or Crowder are great players - they arent. But he filled his team with the same type of players. There is absolutely zero balance on the team.
Then next you you have those 2 plus Hill/clarkson combining to make 61 million!!!
They were better off Keeping Rose/Crowder not only as a better players standpoint but also financial one as well.
They should have done anything possible to move them during the fire sale
Replace JR with a Courtney Lee type
Replace Thompson with a KOQ type and the Cavs would be a better team in the current scenario .
Also Love should have been dealt also.
LeBron can run the whole show if he gets a bunch of Jeff Greens on his team that buy in and play smart ball
We have heard how great George Hill is a defender, well guess who gave up the most points on 1 on 1 basis yesterday? George Hill. Why? Durant would screen him to get the switch, and get the mismatch.
If you are looking at individual defensive stats in the world of ISO ball, you are going to be deceived. Curry gives up a shit load of points as well. But guarding Lebron will do that to a player.
They should have done anything possible to move them during the fire sale
Replace JR with a Courtney Lee type
Replace Thompson with a KOQ type and the Cavs would be a better team in the current scenario .
Also Love should have been dealt also.
LeBron can run the whole show if he gets a bunch of Jeff Greens on his team that buy in and play smart ball
Sorry to say this by KOQ sucks donkey ball.
As does Courtney Lee.
Lebron will never get a roster of role players that he wants because if you get a ball dominant player (ala Rose) he loses touches and he rarely takes a back seat.
If you get shooters (ala Lee, Korver, Smith, etc...) you run the risk of them going cold due to the fact they arent really part of the offenses.
If you get rid of Love and plug in KOQs of the world - you give up floor spacing and put more defenders in the lane - which makes Lebrons game less effective.
GS has won not only because they have great players, but their system is the best in the NBA. Boston has a good system as well - just not the scorers to run it.
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They should have done anything possible to move them during the fire sale
Replace JR with a Courtney Lee type
Replace Thompson with a KOQ type and the Cavs would be a better team in the current scenario .
Also Love should have been dealt also.
LeBron can run the whole show if he gets a bunch of Jeff Greens on his team that buy in and play smart ball
Sorry to say this by KOQ sucks donkey ball.
As does Courtney Lee.
Lebron will never get a roster of role players that he wants because if you get a ball dominant player (ala Rose) he loses touches and he rarely takes a back seat.
If you get shooters (ala Lee, Korver, Smith, etc...) you run the risk of them going cold due to the fact they arent really part of the offenses.
If you get rid of Love and plug in KOQs of the world - you give up floor spacing and put more defenders in the lane - which makes Lebrons game less effective.
GS has won not only because they have great players, but their system is the best in the NBA. Boston has a good system as well - just not the scorers to run it.
Very valid points, I do think LeBrons best team would be a bunch of shooters like he had in Miami , along with a reall good 2 way guy like Wade.
Bosh was so much more comfortable in his reduced LeBron Pf role then Love is.
I agree KOQ and Lee both suck though, but they both atleast have some balls and high Energy brains compared to JR amen TT
I think Courtney Lee would play really well with LeBron and really get on LBJs brain waves as an elite brain on the court
So can they review a 3point on the line and then also view if there was a foul committed? Replay review has completely gotten out of control.
And for the people calling for Kyle O’Quinn instead of Thompson are way off base. KOQ would be played off the court. The guy hasn’t even been able to start for awful Knicks teams.
So Amare and Ewing - you didnt play with Lebron so the rules only apply to you.
So Amare and Ewing - you didnt play with Lebron so the rules only apply to you.
I think its the right call. They have relaxed the rules in recent years. With that said, the Amare/ Diaw suspensions were so absurd. They took 1 step on the court and didn't do anything. This was after their star point guard got completely decked and cheap shotted.
Warriors can simply roll out more/better players than the Cavs so over an extended period of time that advantage only grows.
Love watching Lebron play though...he is so damn strong its scary. Really thought Curry did as good a job on defending Lebron than anyone I have seen during these playoffs...and he only got 51pts!
Golden State defense having too many lapses again defensively.
Hanging around....
He got the T after a terrible non-call.
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Most complaints to a referee. Holy shit, it’s every play.
He got the T after a terrible non-call.
Lue got the T.
He’s definitely getting a long leash tonight
At some point... Curry has to be in the conversation of top 10 ever. Anyone who changes the game has to be considered.
At some point... Curry has to be in the conversation of top 10 ever. Anyone who changes the game has to be considered.
Not even sure he's in the top 20 discussion yet. If they rip off 4 or 5 titles, then it's something worth re-visiting.
This is a a very soft era that provides way too much freedom for offensive movement. So I am holding that against him, and many in this era.
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One of the best dynasties ever.
At some point... Curry has to be in the conversation of top 10 ever. Anyone who changes the game has to be considered.
Not even sure he's in the top 20 discussion yet. If they rip off 4 or 5 titles, then it's something worth re-visiting.
This is a a very soft era that provides way too much freedom for offensive movement. So I am holding that against him, and many in this era.
2x MVP
3x champ presumably
Good chance being all time 3 point shooter
Its time to start thinking about his place on the list.
It was like the old McDonald's commercial with Jordan and Bird for those who remember...
At some point... Curry has to be in the conversation of top 10 ever. Anyone who changes the game has to be considered.
Both KD and Durant will be top 10 locks when al is said and done IMO.
Durant will be. Curry absolutely not.
Durant will be. Curry absolutely not.
hes gonna have the accolades, rings, and some records to boot.
He has single handily changed the game.
He was still the second best player on the floor. LeBron comtinued to dominate the game, but the Cavs just cannot match the Warriors on balance, let alone when the Warriors have everyone playing well.
He was still the second best player on the floor. LeBron comtinued to dominate the game, but the Cavs just cannot match the Warriors on balance, let alone when the Warriors have everyone playing well.
LBJ had 29 last night & Cleveland needed him to score like 20 more. He's working with nothing.
2x MVP
3x champ presumably
Good chance being all time 3 point shooter
Its time to start thinking about his place on the list.
On this list, who does he replace?
Jordan, LeBron, Jabbar, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Julius, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Russell, Barry, Robertson, Baylor, West, Duncan, Moses, Wade, Wilkins, Isiah.
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2x MVP
3x champ presumably
Good chance being all time 3 point shooter
Its time to start thinking about his place on the list.
On this list, who does he replace?
Jordan, LeBron, Jabbar, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Julius, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Russell, Barry, Robertson, Baylor, West, Duncan, Moses, Wade, Wilkins, Isiah.
He's already passed the last 4, Barry, Erving, Baylor, and West. So....
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
James
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
There are always going to be debates, but he is getting close. By the time his careeer has ended he is going to be in rare air. He is sitting at the dinner table at players who changed the game.
He's already passed the last 4, Barry, Erving, Baylor, and West. So....
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
James
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
There are always going to be debates, but he is getting close. By the time his career has ended he is going to be in rare air. He is sitting at the dinner table at players who changed the game.
It's interesting how the Doctor gets downplayed as time passes. His '83 Sixer team was incredible and breezed through the playoffs with only one loss. And they destroyed the Lakers in the finals with Kareem, Magic, Nixon, Worthy, etc in 4 straight.
Julius was a significantly better two way player than Curry and was the bridge to Bird, Magic and Jordan. He made a league - the ABA - relevant. And he was an artist that made the dunk cool. His impact on the league was profound.
I also think Wade has been a better two way player and was much better in the Finals than Curry has been. He's very underrated, too.
And let me add this - Isiah Thomas was brilliant, every bit the ball handler that Curry is praised for. Tremendously underrated. Major jerk off? Yes. But he played in a big man era during the Camelot period of the NBA. And was THE cog in that Pistons dynasty. And was going to the basket when you had to be fearless to succeed.
Just steph and klay were pretty clear first/second round outs before Draymond took off. Remember there were large questions about Stephs ability as a true point and a defender before draymond took on those roles. If not for him I think GS tops out as a slightly better version than the Blazers.
Wade had an older Shaq as his robin
Just steph and klay were pretty clear first/second round outs before Draymond took off. Remember there were large questions about Stephs ability as a true point and a defender before draymond took on those roles. If not for him I think GS tops out as a slightly better version than the Blazers.
Draymond and the signing of Iguadala. Two guys who are ultimate team guys and not desperate for shot attempts.
Plus, Thompson has morphed into a defensive stalwart. So there you have three guys who transformed the team defensively.
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Just steph and klay were pretty clear first/second round outs before Draymond took off. Remember there were large questions about Stephs ability as a true point and a defender before draymond took on those roles. If not for him I think GS tops out as a slightly better version than the Blazers.
Draymond and the signing of Iguadala. Two guys who are ultimate team guys and not desperate for shot attempts.
Plus, Thompson has morphed into a defensive stalwart. So there you have three guys who transformed the team defensively.
then throw in Shawn Livingston who would be the starting PG on a number of teams. Can't hit a 3 to save his life, but might be the best mid-range shooting PG I've seen. The Warriors team is loaded.
He's somewhere in the top 15-20.
Curry and Klay cant piss in the ocean, but Durant has a pretty big game
108-101 Cavs.
there is a clear issue with some young guys and system players playing with lebron-- this is not debateable and one of the sites did a piece on how most guys play worse than projected.
the episode at the end of game 1 reflects that. guys dont play or shoot freely- the fact that lue benched those guys who he would eventually need, speaks to him just riding the LBJ coattails to another finals.
clarkson is not a stud, but hes a solid 6mth man NBA player- a poor mans lou williams-- and he is playing like a homeless mans marshon brooks... that is confidence not ability.
if they want to have a chance they should be working on giving guys like clarkson and hood confidence to perform.
Being a catch and shoot player may seem ideal but to me it's not. And a lot of players are becoming that in the NBA due to the massive ISO movement going on.
I really wish the NBA instituted a new 5 second possession on the ball handler outside the 3 point line. There is nothing worse seeing Lebron, Hatden, Paul, Wall, Westbrook etc.... just dribbling it between thier legs and crossing over for 15 seconds before they drive or shoot a 3.
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"You can tell," Warriors rookie Jordan Bell says. "Last game, Jordan Clarkson had came in. I think he missed like two shots, and I looked up—he was out of the game. I was like, 'Damn, he got pulled already, just for missing two shots?' I guess when you play with LeBron, all you have to do is just catch and shoot. If you're not doing that well, I guess you got to come out."
Being a catch and shoot player may seem ideal but to me it's not. And a lot of players are becoming that in the NBA due to the massive ISO movement going on.
I really wish the NBA instituted a new 5 second possession on the ball handler outside the 3 point line. There is nothing worse seeing Lebron, Hatden, Paul, Wall, Westbrook etc.... just dribbling it between thier legs and crossing over for 15 seconds before they drive or shoot a 3.
Some of it is based on style, some of its based on talent. Lebrons teams passed the ball more when he had Kyrie/Wade/Bosh.
Likewise, the Warriors were DEAD LAST in passes per game before Draymond broke out. Then they creeped into the top 10 the year they won the first championship due to Green/Kerr. And once KD came they rocketed to #1.
I wouldn't expect Lebrons teammates to touch the ball once every 3/4 possessions if they were KD and Klay instead of Jeff Green and George Hill.
exactly- hes not a selfish player--- but its not a flowing offense where players are moving, having their number called, and motion creates shots---
guys are standing and watching and then getting a look- its just not as easy as it looks on TV when you know the narrative is you let lebron down every time you miss
lebron is nothing like westbrook but the cavs offense many times is guys standing around for lebron like guys doing that for westbrook--- its no wonder Melo shot like crap this year.
Curry and Klay cant piss in the ocean, but Durant has a pretty big game
108-101 Cavs.
So far depper on point.
missed a good game
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pointless to even watch. Glad I didnt waste my time watching the first 40 minutes or so
missed a good game
He's just mad the Warriors are winning. The last few minutes were really enjoyable.
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pointless to even watch. Glad I didnt waste my time watching the first 40 minutes or so
missed a good game
I dont find any of the games enjoyable when you know who is going to win in the end. The series was over well before it started. I turn on each game with about 6 minutes to go to see if the final minutes are entertaining. To me there is nothing more worthless than the first 3 quarters of an NBA game. Teams come back down double digits all the time, its worth watching at the end.
At least the conference finals were entertaining. Rest of the playoffs have been an unmitigated disaster.
I dont know what the solution is for the NBA. But unless LeBron leaves to go elsewhere, no one has a chance to beat this golden state team anytime soon because Kevin Durant is a bitch. Great player but always will be a bitch for leaving a team that only lost to the 73 win warriors because he gagged in the big moment.
It's not his job to make the NBA entertaining, but I will always have a problem with a guy who left a team that only lost because he gagged to go to the team that beat him.
The talent is great. It's just not enjoyable for me anymore to watch for long stretches. I love LeBron's greatness. I enjoy watching him try to take a team full of 6th men types to a title.
Unless you're a Warriors fan, watching this super team just isn't particularly enjoyable, maybe because outside of Klay the team is filled with unlikable superstars
Yes. Once Paul got hurt in game 5 the series was over.
I still think they find a way to win if Paul plays, but it's at least a possibility.
Warriors were never losing a game to a Paul-less Rockets team.
So when lebron choked against Dallas, he should be disqualified as well then right. Because Curry’s was one game, lebron was all series.
George hill sucks donkey balls.
So when lebron choked against Dallas, he should be disqualified as well then right. Because Curry’s was one game, lebron was all series.
That was a blemish for sure. But LBJ has certainly done enough since to offset most of that.
And can we agree that LBJ is in a different stratosphere as a player than Curry? He’s shouldered significantly more responsibility than Curry ever can.
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So when lebron choked against Dallas, he should be disqualified as well then right. Because Curry’s was one game, lebron was all series.
That was a blemish for sure. But LBJ has certainly done enough since to offset most of that.
And can we agree that LBJ is in a different stratosphere as a player than Curry? He’s shouldered significantly more responsibility than Curry ever can.
So Curry's one bad game has offset the last 4 years?
Very weird take.
Plus he hit the big 3 before Durants.
Maybe he deserved Finals MVP during his first run but he averaged less points per game than he did during the season playing 43 minutes a game (and Iggy truly played well on both ends that year). It is somewhat telling Steph has never elevated his game during the Finals nor carried his team. And he's basically the weak link thats attacked on defense consistently. For that reason its going to be hard for me to put him ahead of the likes of Kobe, Wade etc. especially if he's going to have the benefit of KD/Klay/Dray for the rest of his career.
Maybe he deserved Finals MVP during his first run but he averaged less points per game than he did during the season playing 43 minutes a game (and Iggy truly played well on both ends that year). It is somewhat telling Steph has never elevated his game during the Finals nor carried his team. And he's basically the weak link thats attacked on defense consistently. For that reason its going to be hard for me to put him ahead of the likes of Kobe, Wade etc. especially if he's going to have the benefit of KD/Klay/Dray for the rest of his career.
You beat me to it. Curry has not been the best player for his team, or the other team for that matter, in any of the four finals he’s played. Assuming Durant grabs another MVP in this series, that will be 3 wins for Golden State and no MVPs for Curry. That is an albatross. And one that will weigh negatively on any attempt to put him in any top 10-15 all-time conversation.
'16 was closer between him & Draymond, but I'd take Curry that year.
'17 was obviously Durant.
Maybe he deserved Finals MVP during his first run but he averaged less points per game than he did during the season playing 43 minutes a game (and Iggy truly played well on both ends that year). It is somewhat telling Steph has never elevated his game during the Finals nor carried his team. And he's basically the weak link thats attacked on defense consistently. For that reason its going to be hard for me to put him ahead of the likes of Kobe, Wade etc. especially if he's going to have the benefit of KD/Klay/Dray for the rest of his career.
Curry has outplayed Durant in 2 of the 3 games so far. With one more big game - he is still going to get the MVP of the finals.
'16 was closer between him & Draymond, but I'd take Curry that year.
'17 was obviously Durant.
GS could no doubt couldn't have won without curry. But they also couldn't have won without Iggy. You can use the #2/3 options as an excuse (e.g. Kobe couldn't have won without Shaq/Pau, Bron wouldn't have won without Wade/kyrie).
But curry basically relied on their 4th option. And from starters 1 through 5 I can't remember a team as deep as any of GS's teams anytime recently.
GS never really needed to rely on Curry as a playmaker. He is attacked on defense. And he'll bring a good offensive game ever other game in the Finals but never to the levels he reaches in the regular season. That is unlike the cream of the top, the MJs, Kobes, lebrons and Wades of the world.
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but he does have some big duds in the Finals over the past few years. He;'s shooting 38% this year. Last year he played well but was outshined entirely by KD. The year the Cavs won he averaged more TOs than assists and shot 40%.
Maybe he deserved Finals MVP during his first run but he averaged less points per game than he did during the season playing 43 minutes a game (and Iggy truly played well on both ends that year). It is somewhat telling Steph has never elevated his game during the Finals nor carried his team. And he's basically the weak link thats attacked on defense consistently. For that reason its going to be hard for me to put him ahead of the likes of Kobe, Wade etc. especially if he's going to have the benefit of KD/Klay/Dray for the rest of his career.
Curry has outplayed Durant in 2 of the 3 games so far. With one more big game - he is still going to get the MVP of the finals.
Steph is shooting 38% from 3. The game he scored 33 he took 26 shots. KD shot 10 of 14 that game and scored 26. So steph scored 7 more points on 12 more shots. I don't consider that outplaying.
For the series who would you say is better:
32 ppg, 10 rpg, 7 apg and nearly 2 blocks a game, playing tremendous defense. Shooting 56% (!!) and 47% from 3
Vs
24 ppg, 8 apg, 6 rpg. Shooting 39% from the field, 40% from 3, is basically the gameplan for the other team to get him switched onto bigger guys and taken advantage of (with Dray and KD providing great help defense in those situations).
Are you really confident that steph is running away with it? If Game 4 is a replica of game 3 how will steph get it? I honestly think steph needs a 40-50 point game to even have chance at it at this point...
This seems pretty obvious to just about anyone I've talked to or anything I've read from experts. I basically think steph needs to be averaging 8 points MORE than KD is to have a shot, based on how great KD has been defensively and how often steph is picked on. But hes averaging 8 points less and shooting an astounding 19% worse than KD.
I think this Finals has been very entertaining but its frustrating watching the Warriors. They are just too loaded. They have 5 of the top 7 guys in this series and a good bench. Their stars aren't really even challenged. They even kept Iguodola on ice until they needed him- its nuts.
I still can't believe the Bulls sold the Jordan Bell pick to the Warriors for 3.5mill. Reinsdorf should be ashamed of himself.
You can argue either way. But watching both game 1 and 2, it was pretty clear that Curry was much further ahead for the MVP award (the question was whether Cuurry or James would get it). Especially after breaking a finals record. Now if Durant has another monster game over Curry, then yes Durant will get it. But if Curry is clearly the best player in their next win - he is going to get it, IMO.
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Come on.
'16 was closer between him & Draymond, but I'd take Curry that year.
'17 was obviously Durant.
GS could no doubt couldn't have won without curry. But they also couldn't have won without Iggy. You can use the #2/3 options as an excuse (e.g. Kobe couldn't have won without Shaq/Pau, Bron wouldn't have won without Wade/kyrie).
But curry basically relied on their 4th option. And from starters 1 through 5 I can't remember a team as deep as any of GS's teams anytime recently.
GS never really needed to rely on Curry as a playmaker. He is attacked on defense. And he'll bring a good offensive game ever other game in the Finals but never to the levels he reaches in the regular season. That is unlike the cream of the top, the MJs, Kobes, lebrons and Wades of the world.
They definitely rely on Curry as a playmaker. Maybe not as much with Durant because they can just ISO him, but they definitely do. Why do you think they constantly get 3 on 2s out of his pick and rolls? Look at all those free runs to the rim last night. It's because teams are deathly afraid of Curry and trapping him on the PNR. Their system is predicated on him. Durant is truly just the ultimate luxury and gravy on top.
Curry was shooting 50% after two games, and now is down to 40%. One game can have huge impact on stats, but not necessarily telling the whole story.
You can argue either way. But watching both game 1 and 2, it was pretty clear that Curry was much further ahead for the MVP award (the question was whether Cuurry or James would get it). Especially after breaking a finals record. Now if Durant has another monster game over Curry, then yes Durant will get it. But if Curry is clearly the best player in their next win - he is going to get it, IMO.
The only thing that keeps Lebron in this is Curry getting obliterated on defense. Last night wasn't as bad, but game 1 he was getting lit up.
Curry hasnt been the leading scorer, top playmaker, most efficient and a bad defender. He's been pretty good, but for the life of me I can;t see how he is sniffing MVP.
Curry was shooting 50% after two games, and now is down to 40%. One game can have huge impact on stats, but not necessarily telling the whole story.
Exactly. You lumped in games 1 and 2 together, where KD shot 71% and 67% from 3 in game 2.
Whats weighing KD down is the 1-7 from 3 in game 1 (a game where he did also shoot above 50% from 2).
Steph is shooting below 37% from 2 in the series...
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30% from down town in games 1-2 and now is up to 47%.
Curry was shooting 50% after two games, and now is down to 40%. One game can have huge impact on stats, but not necessarily telling the whole story.
Exactly. You lumped in games 1 and 2 together, where KD shot 71% and 67% from 3 in game 2.
Whats weighing KD down is the 1-7 from 3 in game 1 (a game where he did also shoot above 50% from 2).
Steph is shooting below 37% from 2 in the series...
Even with Durant's efficient shooting night, I felt Curry was still the prominent, better player in game 2.
Curry was shooting 50% after two games, and now is down to 40%. One game can have huge impact on stats, but not necessarily telling the whole story.
I can't stand these players or this team but I have to tell like I see it. Durant helps cover the best player on the planet and plays good help D. Curry gets hunted and attacked on defense every chance the Cavs get. That must be taken in to consideration.
I also think the Warriors probably win game 2 even without Curry's historic performance. Without Durant last night, they had no chance of winning. Last night was an all time Finals performance from him.
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30% from down town in games 1-2 and now is up to 47%.
Curry was shooting 50% after two games, and now is down to 40%. One game can have huge impact on stats, but not necessarily telling the whole story.
I can't stand these players or this team but I have to tell like I see it. Durant helps cover the best player on the planet and plays good help D. Curry gets hunted and attacked on defense every chance the Cavs get. That must be taken in to consideration.
I also think the Warriors probably win game 2 even without Curry's historic performance. Without Durant last night, they had no chance of winning. Last night was an all time Finals performance from him.
Precisely.
And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.
KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.
Precisely.
And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.
KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.
When judging individual defense performances - you should realize that there is so many switches it is too hard to gauge who is stopping who. Durant may start off on Durant but one high screen and then its curry, bell, looney, thompson or whoever. Durant hasnt guarded Lebron as much as it appears.
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Precisely.
And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.
KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.
When judging individual defense performances - you should realize that there is so many switches it is too hard to gauge who is stopping who. Durant may start off on Durant but one high screen and then its curry, bell, looney, thompson or whoever. Durant hasnt guarded Lebron as much as it appears.
Right, the whole Cavs offense is based off getting Steph onto Lebron. KD and Draymond are absolutely doing an amazing job of coming to his help and rotating when lebron dishes out.
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In comment 13985420 giantsfan44ab said:
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Precisely.
And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.
KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.
When judging individual defense performances - you should realize that there is so many switches it is too hard to gauge who is stopping who. Durant may start off on Durant but one high screen and then its curry, bell, looney, thompson or whoever. Durant hasnt guarded Lebron as much as it appears.
Right, the whole Cavs offense is based off getting Steph onto Lebron. KD and Draymond are absolutely doing an amazing job of coming to his help and rotating when lebron dishes out.
you just said durant has guarded lebron on most possessions of this series, that simply is not true...
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.
Here is my point:
Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.
Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.
I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.
Also the reason why he was so open is that Lebron guarded him, and Lebron played free safety more that series than man to man. They dared him to shoot and score.
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.
I can totally see the argument for CUrry winning MVP that year. But he didn't elevate his game, take it to a higher level (and didnt even have to do much on defense guarding Delly instead of Kyrie). Curry never reaches the heights of his regular season MVP years in the playoffs. His game consistently drops down a level or two come playoff time.
Durant should get a ton of credit for hitting all the shots he did, as he's among the best scorers in the history of the league. But there's no "if I have a bad game, we lose" worry.
Again, I don't blame Durant for going to Golden State. I think it made the most sense for his life. It just ruined the narrative juice and excitement as a fan of not only watching Durant, but watching the Warriors and Curry.
Here is my point:
Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.
Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.
I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
because you made a point which was clearly wrong...
you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...
the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...
you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair
But the thing is.... KD isnt guarding Lebron on many, if not most possessions like you claim.
I can totally see the argument for CUrry winning MVP that year. But he didn't elevate his game, take it to a higher level (and didnt even have to do much on defense guarding Delly instead of Kyrie). Curry never reaches the heights of his regular season MVP years in the playoffs. His game consistently drops down a level or two come playoff time. [/quote]
I think this is pretty irrelevant. If the award is for MVP of the finals, then it's for Most Valuable, however you define it (best, most irreplaceable), and not "best relative to their regular season performance). If it had to go to a Warrior, then what does it matter whether Curry was better in the Finals than he was in the regular season when he won MVP? He was still the Warrior that made that historic offense go. Also, his Finals performance was a lot better than he gets credit for. One bad shooting night has colored the perception of what he did. Outside of a terrible Game 2 performance, he shot 23/50 from 3 with Cleveland trying to chase him off the 3-point line! That is insane.
Everyone on the Cavs was hyper-aware where Curry was on the floor at all times and he spread out the Cavs defense unlike any player in NBA history. That's what the biggest impact was for the Warriors that series.
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guarded Lebron on every possession. Now youre outright making up what i said to bolster your point.
But the thing is.... KD isnt guarding Lebron on many, if not most possessions like you claim.
And then what is Curry doing on D then? The only reason the Cavs have a shot is because Steph Curry is atrocious as he is on that end of the floor. Steph brings it on offense 2/3 games and is picked one each game defensively.
KD has brought it on both ends, every game of the series.
Obviously they all help each other out, space the floor and keep the ball moving once they beat penetration. Stephs impact on offense is beyond his subpar numbers for sure. But KDs impact is also beyond his outrageously efficient numbers, on both ends, all the same.
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I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.
Here is my point:
Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.
Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.
I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
because you made a point which was clearly wrong...
you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...
the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...
you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair
Yes their scheme is switch everything- except with Curry. They didn't want him switching onto Harden and now don't want him switching onto Lebron. The Cavs have just forced that action.
While that is their scheme, Durant has primarily started on Lebron. He definitely has guarded Lebron the most in this series.
While Durant helps them defensively, Curry gets attacked and hurts them. Not sure how that point can be argued.
you just said kd guarded lebron on most possessions..
You make it seem like he defends like Harden. Curry gives max effort defensively.
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Also the reason why he was so open is that Lebron guarded him, and Lebron played free safety more that series than man to man. They dared him to shoot and score.
LeBron was carrying a roster of Dellavedova, JR Smith/Shumpert, Tristan Thompson, and Timofey Mozgov in that series. No one can carry that offensive and chase a bad 3-point shooter around the perimeter.
The best chance Cleveland had to win the series on defense was for LeBron to hang back and sag off of a mediocre 3-point shooter in Iguodala so that he can play free safety make stops inside when the Warriors start running downhill due to the gravity created by Steph and Klay.
Iggy is a career 33% shooter from 3. The Cavs wanted him to be the one to shoot, instead of Curry or Klay, or instead of the Warriors getting easy lanes to slam it home.
Iggy happened to hit those open shots. I don't think it was anything special on Iguodala's part.
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In comment 13985452 giantsfan44ab said:
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I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.
Here is my point:
Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.
Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.
I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
because you made a point which was clearly wrong...
you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...
the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...
you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair
Yes their scheme is switch everything- except with Curry. They didn't want him switching onto Harden and now don't want him switching onto Lebron. The Cavs have just forced that action.
While that is their scheme, Durant has primarily started on Lebron. He definitely has guarded Lebron the most in this series.
While Durant helps them defensively, Curry gets attacked and hurts them. Not sure how that point can be argued.
it doesnt matter who starts on le ron because no matter what they are switxhing...
cavs try to get lebron on curry or the center that is iut there...
i saw klay and draymond on lebron a lot last night as well...
Like I said I think Steph will end up top 20 all time. But the reason I can't see him passing the likes of Wade or Kobe is his lack of outright dominance in a finals series outside the loss against Cleveland. And he's still only what 29/30? So he has time to rewrite this.
He absolutely transformed the offensive game of the NBA. I just don't see him outright dominating each game the way the absolute best all time guards have in the playoffs/Finals.
You make it seem like he defends like Harden. Curry gives max effort defensively.
Fair point about checking Lebron, but Curry is a pretty bad defender. How did he fare when guarding Kyrie?
He gets to play alongside 4 truly great defenders and have Klay guard the best opposing guard. It's a pretty nice luxury to have.
Not arguing Harden is a better offensive or defensive player than steph at all. Im comparing him to the likes of Kobe, Wade, Isiah.
Like I said I think Steph will end up top 20 all time. But the reason I can't see him passing the likes of Wade or Kobe is his lack of outright dominance in a finals series outside the loss against Cleveland. And he's still only what 29/30? So he has time to rewrite this.
He absolutely transformed the offensive game of the NBA. I just don't see him outright dominating each game the way the absolute best all time guards have in the playoffs/Finals.
What does that have to do with him not deserving MVP in 2015?
Also, without getting into the details of Curry vs. Wade vs. Kobe and their Finals performances, which I have no interest in examining, none of them have the impact on a defense without the ball as Curry. No player in NBA history draws a defense as far away from the rim and opens up the floor for the rest of his teammates like Curry. Curry opens up everything within 20 feet of the rim the way LeBron/Shaq/Wilt opened everything outside of 15 feet. Just standing on the floor 25 feet out for possession creates an advantage for his other 4 teammates.
Part of that is the Cavs lacking a second offensive playmaker who creates his own offense to keep the ball moving. But, yes, the Cleveland offense is primarily giving LeBron the ball, spacing out, and letting him create the mismatch, draw everyone to him, and then either score anyway, or kick it to the open man.
It's effective, but repetitive. To me, the most fun I've had watching teams play were the 2015/2016 Warriors and the 2014 Spurs, particularly in the NBA Finals.
Aesthetically, the ECavs are like an NFL team with a dominant running game that keeps pounding the rock for 4-5 yards and do it over and over again because defenses can't stop it, and so when they load up in the box, they then use play-action to find open receivers. There are many people on BBI who clamor for a return to those days. I found that style less aesthetically pleasing than teams who threw more.
One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".
Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.
And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
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One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".
Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.
And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
in 2015 curry was not far and away the best player on the team?
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One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".
Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.
And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
Don't think he was referring to this GS team, i think he was just emphasizing that Curry deserved the MVP in '15.
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One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.
You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".
Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.
And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
What does Durant have to do with the 2015 Warriors?
There is no doubt the Warriors are loaded. They were loaded before Durant and even more so now. I point it out all the time. But pre-Durant, Curry was far and away the best player on the team. He won back-to-back league MVP awards, both overwhelmingly so, with the second being unanimous. It doesn't take anything away from the contributions and effectiveness of the other players on the team.
It takes nothing away from, say, Scottie Pippen, to say that Michael Jordan was far and away the best player on those 90s Bulls.
What does Durant have to do with the 2015 Warriors?
There is no doubt the Warriors are loaded. They were loaded before Durant and even more so now. I point it out all the time. But pre-Durant, Curry was far and away the best player on the team. He won back-to-back league MVP awards, both overwhelmingly so, with the second being unanimous. It doesn't take anything away from the contributions and effectiveness of the other players on the team.
It takes nothing away from, say, Scottie Pippen, to say that Michael Jordan was far and away the best player on those 90s Bulls.
My bad. I misread the flow of the conversation.
I'm a big Klay Thompson guy. So while Curry was great in '15, it's the same point. He still wasn't far and away the best player on that team. You can't begin to say he shouldered the defensive responsibility that Thompson did. Thompson is a better two way player.
The Jordan compare is poor one because Jordan was a 9X first team defender and won the MVP and DPOTY in '88. He could impact the game on the defensive end.
Curry does none of that. He is a one-way player; and a player who has benefited enormously by rules that make playing perimeter defense as difficult as playing corner in the NFL. So good for him for finding his niche.
Also, your point about the current rules for perimeter defense are also irrelevant. Those are the rules in place. I'm not comparing Curry to anyone historically, only to his teammates in the 2015 season, so all that matters are the rules in place during that season.
You saying he cant defend is just wrong. He gets nearly 2 steals a game and isnt a sieve that other superstars are.
Durant dodged an enormous bullet. He really blew game 1 and let Smith just move him under the basket to get that rebound. He would have been roasted for that weak effort at a critical moment of game 1 in the Finals.
But now, he's the MVP. He's very lucky Smith is a meathead.
Isiah Thomas says hello. Dumars and Rodman were all time great defenders. Laimbeer wasn’t shabby either. But if you want to take elite defenders
Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper who many forget was an elite defender as well.
The defense they played against Utah is forgotten. And that’s why they were so good. They defended better than they played offense.
No chance of him winning if they get swept or even if they lose in 5. I know Lebron is an all time great. But it simply cannot happen. His counting stats are nice and he has played very well, but at the end of the day its all about winning.
So in reality, the Finals MVP was never awarded to a player on a losing team.
So it's unrealistic that LeBron would win under any circumstance where the Warriors win the series. I just think that is a poor way of evaluating performance and a poor way of creating an historical marker (not as much as how baseball MVPs are voted).
I understand the reasoning of wondering how much value LeBron could provide if his team lost. But I'm not persuaded by it for two reasons.
1. On the flip side, how valuable could any Warrior be if the team would still be favored over the Cavs and expected to win even if any single one of them broke a leg the day before the series started?
2. Also, if it were game 7, and the Cavs were up 2 with 3 seconds left and Jordan Bell threw a full court heave to miraculously win the game and the championship, I don't understand how that play would somehow mean that Durant or Curry were then more valuable than LeBron.
Like all MVP awards, I think it's meant as a way to look back on the season/series and ask who the best player was-- who contributed the most independent value to help a team win.
So in reality, the Finals MVP was never awarded to a player on a losing team.
So it's unrealistic that LeBron would win under any circumstance where the Warriors win the series. I just think that is a poor way of evaluating performance and a poor way of creating an historical marker (not as much as how baseball MVPs are voted).
I understand the reasoning of wondering how much value LeBron could provide if his team lost. But I'm not persuaded by it for two reasons.
1. On the flip side, how valuable could any Warrior be if the team would still be favored over the Cavs and expected to win even if any single one of them broke a leg the day before the series started?
2. Also, if it were game 7, and the Cavs were up 2 with 3 seconds left and Jordan Bell threw a full court heave to miraculously win the game and the championship, I don't understand how that play would somehow mean that Durant or Curry were then more valuable than LeBron.
Like all MVP awards, I think it's meant as a way to look back on the season/series and ask who the best player was-- who contributed the most independent value to help a team win.
I think in your last example, Lebron would win it. But in a 4-5 game series - I just dont see how.
His stat line is always going to be amazing since the offense is set up for him to have it. But look at your last line "value to help a team WIN." If you dont win a game, the value you brought was that you made games more competitive.
He should be the league MVP cause he carried his team to a good regular season record (and I am still in the belief we dont see beast Lebron until playoffs anyways.)
Isiah Thomas says hello. Dumars and Rodman were all time great defenders. Laimbeer wasn’t shabby either. But if you want to take elite defenders
Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper who many forget was an elite defender as well.
The defense they played against Utah is forgotten. And that’s why they were so good. They defended better than they played offense.
True, but Thomas and Jordan were terrific defenders. They were key parts on that side of the ball for those great teams.
Btw, you mentioned that Curry gets a lot of steals. So does James Harden. And no one in their right, drug free mind would call him a great defender. So steals can be misleading...
Btw, you mentioned that Curry gets a lot of steals. So does James Harden. And no one in their right, drug free mind would call him a great defender. So steals can be misleading...
Curry tries on defense, so him getting steals is probably a result of hustle. Harden reaches and goes for passes. H
Also, your point about the current rules for perimeter defense are also irrelevant. Those are the rules in place. I'm not comparing Curry to anyone historically, only to his teammates in the 2015 season, so all that matters are the rules in place during that season.
But the rule distorts the game. So I think it's important to assess situation through that lens.
Sure, I give credit to Curry for a great season. But it's always natural to wonder how a guy who isn't big, isn't physically imposing, etc can thrive to the point where he gets ultimate success in a league where bigger, stronger, faster usually rules. You don't find that curious?
Baseball is the dumbest because players have far less impact on a team than in NBA or in the NFL.
The best strategy for opponents is to try and isolate him into one-on-one basketball, but that's easier said than done. Guys like Kyrie and Isiah Thomas are fare bigger liabilities and one-dimensional players than Curry.
Lebron has full control, hence I dont feel bad when people claim he doesnt have enough. He chooses the team he wants, the players he wants, and tells management who to trade/trade for.
He basically called out management to sign JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. He basically said Thomas was not wanted.
Now Kyrie is different because it generally seemed to catch Lebron off guard, but we dont know what happened behind the scene.
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Players only have so much control over who they play with and individual honors should be about their individual contributions.
Lebron has full control, hence I dont feel bad when people claim he doesnt have enough. He chooses the team he wants, the players he wants, and tells management who to trade/trade for.
He basically called out management to sign JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. He basically said Thomas was not wanted.
Now Kyrie is different because it generally seemed to catch Lebron off guard, but we dont know what happened behind the scene.
Agree with your points on MVP/Finals MVP.
But judging Lebron as a basketball player I ignore what he does in terms of getting teammates. I don't think Lebron the "GM" should be factored in when analyzing Lebron the player. Like I don't consider Isiah Thomas as an exec weighs down on his playing career. I guess prime example would be Vlade Divac lol.
All I've learned is that no basketball player can win with a crappy team. Especially against the greatest team probably (likely) ever. Shit, Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs when his teammates were that bad.
But judging Lebron as a basketball player I ignore what he does in terms of getting teammates. I don't think Lebron the "GM" should be factored in when analyzing Lebron the player. Like I don't consider Isiah Thomas as an exec weighs down on his playing career. I guess prime example would be Vlade Divac lol.
All I've learned is that no basketball player can win with a crappy team. Especially against the greatest team probably (likely) ever. Shit, Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs when his teammates were that bad.
I can separate Lebron the player from GM very easily. My point is I dont feel sorry for Lebron when hedoesnt win cause his teammatesarent good enough - because he is the one who is choosing who to play. And him losing continuously in the finals only hurts the GOAT arguemnt - not where he ranks compared to any other player not named Jordan. He is number 2 on my list and probably will stay there for a very long time.
The one good thing Krause and Reinsdorf did was manage the Bulls with very limited input from the players. Phil Jackson said out of the 7 PFs on their list to come to the team when Jordan came back, Rodman was last. But when they went to him management went to MJ and Pippen for approval, and they agreed. But he wasnt their first choice.
I whole-heartedly agree that rings as a whole is a team award rather than an individual award. But MJ 3-peating twice seems like an unrepeatable accomplishment (maybe the Warriors can replicate but MJ didn't even have as much talent as Steph/KD does now).
I'm just tired of all the Lakers fans who just spout "ringz"in any Kobe vs Lebron argument. It seems even Celtics fans for the most part back Lebrons status on the Mt Rushmore of basketball.
So regardless of how much input he has, there are still realities as to what the teams can look like. It's not liek LeBron ever had access to Steph, Klay, Dray, or Durant, for example.
At the end of the day, the teams are who they are when the ball is tipped. And so, to me, the MVP, is the one who most helped his team win in the "win share" sense.
Durant got a technical for telling the ref he missed a walk. Hahaha
Free throws are 12 to 2. But the first time the refs miss a call on lebron - they are cheating or screwing the Cavs.
Durant got a technical for telling the ref he missed a walk. Hahaha
scott foster is officiating, are yiu shocked?
Still amazed how he was talked up by a few here last year.
Irving, Thomas, or rose would have been a massive upgrade over him.
The off-season is definitely much more intriguing these days than the actual playoffs
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until the real NBA season starts.
The off-season is definitely much more intriguing these days than the actual playoffs
Yep... what superstar who can’t win a title can find a way and join an elite team or a team full of his friends.
Lebron, Paul George, Kawahi, CP3 are all possible guys who can be on the move.
My apologies - just saw a photo of them talking.
East is just so poor. Tend to think Boston had the goods to push a series with the Dubs to 6 games.
Regardless, all the praise to the Dubs. Great accomplishment getting 3 out of 4. Think they have at least thrown their hat into a discussion of all-time best teams.
It’s not a surprise he announced his injury himself. Lot of “I” when he speaks anymore.
If he goes to Houston, I hope everyone rips him apart.
Hope LeBron does not go to Boston. Much more fun team to root for as currently constructed without him. Think Celts might lose Kyrie to the NYK in 2019 though.
Lakers, Sixers, Cavs, Rockets, Celts.