the block/charge call and JR Smith-ness of the last thirty seconds of the game will mar not only one of the greatest Finals performances we'll see from an individual player, but likely undoes any chance Cleveland has of making this a competitive series.
Golden State's defense was horrific in regulation Â
and not sideways and slipping underneath with his right foot sliding the entire time? Very strange how a group of people see this so differently.
Plus you cannot slide once the offensive player is in the air. Feet set or not (and I dont think they were either). Basically you are saying its ok to plant your feet and lean all the way to the left or right as the guy jumps.
Did JR Smith really pretend he knew what he was doing? Â
the block/charge call and JR Smith-ness of the last thirty seconds of the game will mar not only one of the greatest Finals performances we'll see from an individual player, but likely undoes any chance Cleveland has of making this a competitive series.
if george hill makes 1 free throw it is over, we are not talking about any of this
on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
Yes almost 5 seconds I think, plenty of time for them to score. Not sure if they had a timeout left though.
on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
ok not over but the game was still in their hands...
and not sideways and slipping underneath with his right foot sliding the entire time? Very strange how a group of people see this so differently.
Here are screenshots of the play in action. LeBron had legal guarding position facing Durant and beat Durant to the spot. He is allowed to still move laterally to his left and his right foot can still slide.
Most notably, look at where LeBron gets to in picture 6. Look where LeBron's left leg (his outside leg) is planted (use the dotted semicircle as a frame of reference).
Now, in pictures 7 and 8, look at the angle Durant takes and look at where Durant's lead leg (right leg) goes and use the same semi-cirlce as a reference. Durant's goes right into LeBron's torso. Durant's lead leg in inside LeBron's outside leg.
It's not like Durant clipped LeBron on the outside of LeBron's left side. He he LeBron right in his center.
Even more absurd, look how far away LeBron was from the restricted area. How was that even reviewed?
on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
Yes almost 5 seconds I think, plenty of time for them to score. Not sure if they had a timeout left though.
They did have a timeout, the announcers noted Kerr told them to call immediate TO whether Hill made or missed the 2nd (assuming GS got the rebound)
RE: RE: You guys really think he was facing Durant Â
and not sideways and slipping underneath with his right foot sliding the entire time? Very strange how a group of people see this so differently.
Here are screenshots of the play in action. LeBron had legal guarding position facing Durant and beat Durant to the spot. He is allowed to still move laterally to his left and his right foot can still slide.
Most notably, look at where LeBron gets to in picture 6. Look where LeBron's left leg (his outside leg) is planted (use the dotted semicircle as a frame of reference).
Now, in pictures 7 and 8, look at the angle Durant takes and look at where Durant's lead leg (right leg) goes and use the same semi-cirlce as a reference. Durant's goes right into LeBron's torso. Durant's lead leg in inside LeBron's outside leg.
It's not like Durant clipped LeBron on the outside of LeBron's left side. He he LeBron right in his center.
Even more absurd, look how far away LeBron was from the restricted area. How was that even reviewed?
I noted the restricted area earlier, it doesn’t matter. You can just step in front of someone and slide under them. The restricted area is irrelevant to this argument.
one way or another. And the restricted area is relevant because it’s the whole reason they reviewed it in the first place. Should not have been reviewed and subsequently reversed in my opinion.
That same play happens 100 times, I bet the refs call it a charge 50 times and a block 50 times. It's that close. Steve Javie is one of the best refs in league history, and he said on the air that it was a charge. To reverse it on review in that situation is ridiculous. And if that game is played in Cleveland instead of Golden State, ya think they're reversing a call like that on Lebron James? If that happened to the Knicks in a Finals game we'd bitch about it for 100 years.
this doesn't include Lebron stripping KD and getting whistled for a reach, Hill blocking KD in OT and getting called for the shooting foul, or Klay coming in from out of bounds and hitting the 3 before setting both feet in bounds prior to catching the ball.
The Cavs didn't get this 50/50 call. Nor did they get the 70/30 or 80/20 calls. Lebron was playing against the warriors, the refs AND even his own teammates...
not in determining whether it was a block or charge, but because only a question of whether LeBron was in the restricted area could the refs review the play. That he was so far outside of the restricted area means that the play shouldn't have been reviewed.
As to the play, I don't see how LeBron slid under Durant. He moved laterally and established himself in Durant's path before Durant, thereby beating Durant to the spot. In that case, the contact was initiated by Durant. That LeBron's right leg was still sliding is irrelevant as well.
4 on. Lebron isn't even completely facing Durant, he's at an angle, and he slides under him once Durant leaves the floor.
They reversed the call because it is clearly not a charge.
I hate that it was reversed, but Lebron was never set, nor was he in a position that Durant went to. Durant went to the left of him (from our view)
I disagree. It looks to me that LeBron's and Durant's shoulders are parallel, especially considering the wide angle Durant comes in from and then Durant goes into the center of LeBron's body, with Durant's leg clearly inside of LeBron's.
It's a bang-bang play, a close call, and I have no idea how it was reviewed, let alone reversed.
IMO the call was 50-50, as some of you are saying Â
I disagree. It looks to me that LeBron's and Durant's shoulders are parallel, especially considering the wide angle Durant comes in from and then Durant goes into the center of LeBron's body, with Durant's leg clearly inside of LeBron's.
It's a bang-bang play, a close call, and I have no idea how it was reviewed, let alone reversed.
I am looking at the last two pics you showed. My evidence is that is body and right leg are moving as contact occurs is pretty easy.
In the 2nd to last picture, you can see the back of James' Jersey cleary. Name and number. His right leg is exteded out. Now in the last picture you can barely see the back of his jersey where it clearly twisted from the prior frame.
The only thing that was in the same place from the two frames is the left foot. He clearly moves from the last two stills and since is Durant is going up and James is sliding/twisting/moving or whatever - it makes it a block. You cant move side to side once the guy starts his shooting motion. Lebron did.
The VP of referees said that the block call was the right one.
LeBron twists is because his weight is on his planted left leg and so when Durant hits him, LeBron will naturally rotate around that axis.
Again, LeBron is allowed to move laterally so long as he beats Durant to the spot and establishes legal guarding position before Durant starts his upward motion.
I typically hate how block-charges are officiated because of how players use gather steps and how many players hunt for charges.
In this case, I thought it was a charge, but it could have gone either way. I just can't believe they reviewed it under false pretenses and then changed such a close call.
is the worst kind of athlete. He should have been a star. Can be a great 3 point shooter with the athleticism of a great dunker. It just seemed like he never cared (which is a label I hate to put on athletes because we can't really tell from watching on TV).
This is going to be a sweep.
I've been ripping JR since he shot 29% from the field in a fucking Â
stretch where JR averaged 22 PPG for a good 2 weeks and sealed the 6th man award. He would bully small defenders to get to the rim in addition to draining 3s and keeping up on D. WTF is this now...
RE: RE: Amazing BBI loved JR when he was a Knick Â
Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
Nah, he was never a smart player here.
he was the 2nd best player on a 54 win team, he abaolutely had a stretch where hr was playing great basketball...
Okay, but he had mental lapses, did stupid things, was out partying through all hours of the night during the playoffs and then didn’t live up to his contract here. And that 54 win season which everyone loves to discuss, was followed up with a 37-45 record and NYK hasn’t made the playoffs since.
can we just agree to disagree and all go back to ripping jr smith? please
All the more reason why it shouldn't be overturned, if all of us here can't come to a conclusion then it's inconclusive!
But yes, JR is an idiot and I'm not really sure why they continue to put up with him. There was a time when he still contributed enough on the court to make it worth the bonehead plays. He has not been worth the trouble the last two years. They need to cut his minutes.
Looney, Bell, and Curry cannot guard him and he is shooting well enough where he can get to the line, lane, and make 3s. I cant believe how many uncontested layups and dunks he had yesterday.
Nick Wright, world's biggest LeBron fan, had pointed out that LeBron still had excellent efficiency and put up huge numbers with Iguodala guarding him as well.
I can "forgive" Hill for missing the FT. Players miss free throws all the time. Sometimes they just don't go in. Not knowing the score at that moment is beyond unforgivable.
Plus, you can read his lips saying to LeBron "I thought we were up" so to now backtrack makes no sense.
Also, if he thought it was tied with 4.7 seconds left, why would he dribble it back to the scorer's table?
Nick Wright, world's biggest LeBron fan, had pointed out that LeBron still had excellent efficiency and put up huge numbers with Iguodala guarding him as well.
You dont stop Lebron. But what Iggy does is defend better than Looney and Bell - who are basically defenseless out there. Plus Iggy is a better offensive option. Another passer/slasher/ocassional shooter. Bell and Looney are scrap pile pickers. Where as Iggy is a vital cog in their offense as well.
last night was probably the best chance for the Cavs to make it a series.
Eh I wouldn't say that. The Warriors often get blown out in Cleveland. It most likely will only happen once, but could definitely happen twice.
They're also lucky Klay Thompson's injury wasn't more serious, and that luck may not hold.
GS is always good for a game where Curry makes 3-5 silly passes to the other team, Green gets fouled/thrown out, Klay cant hit the backside of the barn - and in that game Durant goes off and they lose by 12. Ill give that one in game 3. Then they come back and win the next 2.
that people now expect LeBron to score 45 a night while leading his team in assists because now if he scores in the 25-30 range, which can still be a great night, he will get even more blame.
51/8/8 on 19-32 shooting. I'm not sure how he will be able to top that, especially as the Warriors make adjustments throughout the series and Iguodala comes back (which will help the Warriors on both ends). When that isn't enough for Cleveland to win, it's a sad state of affairs for fans watching the Finals hoping for a good series.
The Cavs biggest problem, and the reason they aren't a legitimate threat to the Warriors, is that they don't have any two-way players. LeBron can't exert the same energy on defense that he used to while carrying the offense.
Meanwhile, Golden State has superlative defenders in Draymond and Iguodala who keep the ball moving on offense, with good-to-great defenders in Klay and Durant who are also excellent offensive players.
LeBron is surrounded by 3-and-no-D guys and in many games, they have become "no-3-and-no-D" players. LeBron the GM is partially at fault, but these guys have to knock down their 3's at above-average clips to give them a chance in the series.
The Cavs biggest problem, and the reason they aren't a legitimate threat to the Warriors, is that they don't have any two-way players. LeBron can't exert the same energy on defense that he used to while carrying the offense.
Meanwhile, Golden State has superlative defenders in Draymond and Iguodala who keep the ball moving on offense, with good-to-great defenders in Klay and Durant who are also excellent offensive players.
LeBron is surrounded by 3-and-no-D guys and in many games, they have become "no-3-and-no-D" players. LeBron the GM is partially at fault, but these guys have to knock down their 3's at above-average clips to give them a chance in the series.
Derrick Rose this postseason proved he wasnt garbage. And Crowder was a defender and shooter he could rely on.
The problem is Lebron built a team he thought he could dominate with. A big who can rebound and defend on perimeter. He took all shooters (Smith, Korver, Love, Clarkson, Hill, etc...) all guy who open the floor for him to dominate. So lebron goes and gets 40-50, but these guys touch the ball every once in awhile. You cant get rhythm or flow that way. Look at the Warrios - everyone touches the ball almost if not every possession. Lebron, harden, Westbrook and Wall live in ISO world. I am not saying they are slefish but they hold the ball for the majority of the shotclock and either shoot it or pass it to the open guy. The problem is only 2, maybe 3 guys touch the ball on a possession. So yes they get assists, but rarely a hockey assist.
Rose can still score and get his own shot, which NO guard on cleveland can do. Rose proved to be a capable scorer for the Knicks last year and in the playoffs for Minny. He is not a guy you want starting or playing 30 minutes. but hes a guy who can give Lebron a break on offense.
It's J.R. Smith. All the talent in the world, but he is maddeningly unfocused and stupid.
It was very close. He beat him to the spot. Some movement. A very tough call. There is no right call here because it is too close.
It was BS that they changed it.
Plus you cannot slide once the offensive player is in the air. Feet set or not (and I dont think they were either). Basically you are saying its ok to plant your feet and lean all the way to the left or right as the guy jumps.
if george hill makes 1 free throw it is over, we are not talking about any of this
Yes almost 5 seconds I think, plenty of time for them to score. Not sure if they had a timeout left though.
ok not over but the game was still in their hands...
Here are screenshots of the play in action. LeBron had legal guarding position facing Durant and beat Durant to the spot. He is allowed to still move laterally to his left and his right foot can still slide.
Most notably, look at where LeBron gets to in picture 6. Look where LeBron's left leg (his outside leg) is planted (use the dotted semicircle as a frame of reference).
Now, in pictures 7 and 8, look at the angle Durant takes and look at where Durant's lead leg (right leg) goes and use the same semi-cirlce as a reference. Durant's goes right into LeBron's torso. Durant's lead leg in inside LeBron's outside leg.
It's not like Durant clipped LeBron on the outside of LeBron's left side. He he LeBron right in his center.
Even more absurd, look how far away LeBron was from the restricted area. How was that even reviewed?
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on the clock when Hill was shooting FTs? Hardly over if he makes it, certainly not with basically the best 3 point shooting team of all time on the court.
Yes almost 5 seconds I think, plenty of time for them to score. Not sure if they had a timeout left though.
They did have a timeout, the announcers noted Kerr told them to call immediate TO whether Hill made or missed the 2nd (assuming GS got the rebound)
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and not sideways and slipping underneath with his right foot sliding the entire time? Very strange how a group of people see this so differently.
Here are screenshots of the play in action. LeBron had legal guarding position facing Durant and beat Durant to the spot. He is allowed to still move laterally to his left and his right foot can still slide.
Most notably, look at where LeBron gets to in picture 6. Look where LeBron's left leg (his outside leg) is planted (use the dotted semicircle as a frame of reference).
Now, in pictures 7 and 8, look at the angle Durant takes and look at where Durant's lead leg (right leg) goes and use the same semi-cirlce as a reference. Durant's goes right into LeBron's torso. Durant's lead leg in inside LeBron's outside leg.
It's not like Durant clipped LeBron on the outside of LeBron's left side. He he LeBron right in his center.
Even more absurd, look how far away LeBron was from the restricted area. How was that even reviewed?
I noted the restricted area earlier, it doesn’t matter. You can just step in front of someone and slide under them. The restricted area is irrelevant to this argument.
They reversed the call because it is clearly not a charge.
I hate that it was reversed, but Lebron was never set, nor was he in a position that Durant went to. Durant went to the left of him (from our view)
I dont see Lebron clearly taking it into the chest. Especially as he is sliding to his left.
He doesn’t have to take the shot on the chin.
Defenders don’t have to be statues. Some movement is ok before the contact.
It was a toss up call even after watching it in slow motion from several angles.
It should not have been changed.
The Cavs didn't get this 50/50 call. Nor did they get the 70/30 or 80/20 calls. Lebron was playing against the warriors, the refs AND even his own teammates...
As to the play, I don't see how LeBron slid under Durant. He moved laterally and established himself in Durant's path before Durant, thereby beating Durant to the spot. In that case, the contact was initiated by Durant. That LeBron's right leg was still sliding is irrelevant as well.
They reversed the call because it is clearly not a charge.
I hate that it was reversed, but Lebron was never set, nor was he in a position that Durant went to. Durant went to the left of him (from our view)
I disagree. It looks to me that LeBron's and Durant's shoulders are parallel, especially considering the wide angle Durant comes in from and then Durant goes into the center of LeBron's body, with Durant's leg clearly inside of LeBron's.
It's a bang-bang play, a close call, and I have no idea how it was reviewed, let alone reversed.
In other amusing news, JR claiming he knew it was tied this morning. Lulz
I disagree. It looks to me that LeBron's and Durant's shoulders are parallel, especially considering the wide angle Durant comes in from and then Durant goes into the center of LeBron's body, with Durant's leg clearly inside of LeBron's.
It's a bang-bang play, a close call, and I have no idea how it was reviewed, let alone reversed.
I am looking at the last two pics you showed. My evidence is that is body and right leg are moving as contact occurs is pretty easy.
In the 2nd to last picture, you can see the back of James' Jersey cleary. Name and number. His right leg is exteded out. Now in the last picture you can barely see the back of his jersey where it clearly twisted from the prior frame.
The only thing that was in the same place from the two frames is the left foot. He clearly moves from the last two stills and since is Durant is going up and James is sliding/twisting/moving or whatever - it makes it a block. You cant move side to side once the guy starts his shooting motion. Lebron did.
The VP of referees said that the block call was the right one.
Again, LeBron is allowed to move laterally so long as he beats Durant to the spot and establishes legal guarding position before Durant starts his upward motion.
I typically hate how block-charges are officiated because of how players use gather steps and how many players hunt for charges.
In this case, I thought it was a charge, but it could have gone either way. I just can't believe they reviewed it under false pretenses and then changed such a close call.
This is going to be a sweep.
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Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
Nah, he was never a smart player here.
this is why durant went to golden state, he knew he could make mistakes and not be under the microscope 24/7 , because there were 3 other all stars...
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In comment 13980816 Sean said:
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Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
Nah, he was never a smart player here.
he was the 2nd best player on a 54 win team, he abaolutely had a stretch where hr was playing great basketball...
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In comment 13980842 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13980816 Sean said:
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Yeah people liked him when he was playing like a 6th man of the year. That's not surprising.
Nah, he was never a smart player here.
he was the 2nd best player on a 54 win team, he abaolutely had a stretch where hr was playing great basketball...
Okay, but he had mental lapses, did stupid things, was out partying through all hours of the night during the playoffs and then didn’t live up to his contract here. And that 54 win season which everyone loves to discuss, was followed up with a 37-45 record and NYK hasn’t made the playoffs since.
All the more reason why it shouldn't be overturned, if all of us here can't come to a conclusion then it's inconclusive!
But yes, JR is an idiot and I'm not really sure why they continue to put up with him. There was a time when he still contributed enough on the court to make it worth the bonehead plays. He has not been worth the trouble the last two years. They need to cut his minutes.
So. F*cking. Weak. Just man up to your F up JR.
I can "forgive" Hill for missing the FT. Players miss free throws all the time. Sometimes they just don't go in. Not knowing the score at that moment is beyond unforgivable.
Plus, you can read his lips saying to LeBron "I thought we were up" so to now backtrack makes no sense.
Also, if he thought it was tied with 4.7 seconds left, why would he dribble it back to the scorer's table?
Eh I wouldn't say that. The Warriors often get blown out in Cleveland. It most likely will only happen once, but could definitely happen twice.
They're also lucky Klay Thompson's injury wasn't more serious, and that luck may not hold.
At least with the Tuck Rule, they actually were attempting to apply a terrible rule correctly.
You dont stop Lebron. But what Iggy does is defend better than Looney and Bell - who are basically defenseless out there. Plus Iggy is a better offensive option. Another passer/slasher/ocassional shooter. Bell and Looney are scrap pile pickers. Where as Iggy is a vital cog in their offense as well.
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last night was probably the best chance for the Cavs to make it a series.
Eh I wouldn't say that. The Warriors often get blown out in Cleveland. It most likely will only happen once, but could definitely happen twice.
They're also lucky Klay Thompson's injury wasn't more serious, and that luck may not hold.
GS is always good for a game where Curry makes 3-5 silly passes to the other team, Green gets fouled/thrown out, Klay cant hit the backside of the barn - and in that game Durant goes off and they lose by 12. Ill give that one in game 3. Then they come back and win the next 2.
51/8/8 on 19-32 shooting. I'm not sure how he will be able to top that, especially as the Warriors make adjustments throughout the series and Iguodala comes back (which will help the Warriors on both ends). When that isn't enough for Cleveland to win, it's a sad state of affairs for fans watching the Finals hoping for a good series.
Then next you you have those 2 plus Hill/clarkson combining to make 61 million!!!
They were better off Keeping Rose/Crowder not only as a better players standpoint but also financial one as well.
The Cavs biggest problem, and the reason they aren't a legitimate threat to the Warriors, is that they don't have any two-way players. LeBron can't exert the same energy on defense that he used to while carrying the offense.
Meanwhile, Golden State has superlative defenders in Draymond and Iguodala who keep the ball moving on offense, with good-to-great defenders in Klay and Durant who are also excellent offensive players.
LeBron is surrounded by 3-and-no-D guys and in many games, they have become "no-3-and-no-D" players. LeBron the GM is partially at fault, but these guys have to knock down their 3's at above-average clips to give them a chance in the series.
The Cavs biggest problem, and the reason they aren't a legitimate threat to the Warriors, is that they don't have any two-way players. LeBron can't exert the same energy on defense that he used to while carrying the offense.
Meanwhile, Golden State has superlative defenders in Draymond and Iguodala who keep the ball moving on offense, with good-to-great defenders in Klay and Durant who are also excellent offensive players.
LeBron is surrounded by 3-and-no-D guys and in many games, they have become "no-3-and-no-D" players. LeBron the GM is partially at fault, but these guys have to knock down their 3's at above-average clips to give them a chance in the series.
Derrick Rose this postseason proved he wasnt garbage. And Crowder was a defender and shooter he could rely on.
The problem is Lebron built a team he thought he could dominate with. A big who can rebound and defend on perimeter. He took all shooters (Smith, Korver, Love, Clarkson, Hill, etc...) all guy who open the floor for him to dominate. So lebron goes and gets 40-50, but these guys touch the ball every once in awhile. You cant get rhythm or flow that way. Look at the Warrios - everyone touches the ball almost if not every possession. Lebron, harden, Westbrook and Wall live in ISO world. I am not saying they are slefish but they hold the ball for the majority of the shotclock and either shoot it or pass it to the open guy. The problem is only 2, maybe 3 guys touch the ball on a possession. So yes they get assists, but rarely a hockey assist.
Rose can still score and get his own shot, which NO guard on cleveland can do. Rose proved to be a capable scorer for the Knicks last year and in the playoffs for Minny. He is not a guy you want starting or playing 30 minutes. but hes a guy who can give Lebron a break on offense.