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NFT: NBA playoff thread

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/14/2018 3:23 pm
Dubs up early on Spurs.

Raptors-Wiz @ 5:30, Heat-76ers @ 8, & Pels-Blazers @ 10:30.

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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Durant was shooting  
nygiants16 : 6/7/2018 11:08 am : link
In comment 13985444 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13985441 dep026 said:


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In comment 13985420 giantsfan44ab said:


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Precisely.

And Dep you proclaimed yourself that George Hill is donkey balls, yet that's curry's main defensive assignment in this series.

KD is guarding lebron on many if not most of the plays in this series.



When judging individual defense performances - you should realize that there is so many switches it is too hard to gauge who is stopping who. Durant may start off on Durant but one high screen and then its curry, bell, looney, thompson or whoever. Durant hasnt guarded Lebron as much as it appears.



Right, the whole Cavs offense is based off getting Steph onto Lebron. KD and Draymond are absolutely doing an amazing job of coming to his help and rotating when lebron dishes out.


you just said durant has guarded lebron on most possessions of this series, that simply is not true...

it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/7/2018 11:09 am : link
and I like Iggy a lot. If they weren't going to give it to LeBron for carrying a Cavs team without Kyrie or Love, then it should have been Curry.

One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.

More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.
If we are nitpicking  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 11:12 am : link
I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.

Here is my point:

Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.

Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.

I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.
RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015  
dep026 : 6/7/2018 11:13 am : link
In comment 13985449 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:


More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.


Also the reason why he was so open is that Lebron guarded him, and Lebron played free safety more that series than man to man. They dared him to shoot and score.
RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 11:15 am : link
In comment 13985449 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
and I like Iggy a lot. If they weren't going to give it to LeBron for carrying a Cavs team without Kyrie or Love, then it should have been Curry.

One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.

More than that, he was the reason Iguodala got all those easy looks. His gravity in that series was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Cavs were doubling and trapping him several feet beyond the 3 point line and Curry would make the right play leading to endless 4-on-3 opportunities. The rest of the Warriors were playing downhill on offense because of how Curry lured the defenders so far away from the hoop on every play.


I can totally see the argument for CUrry winning MVP that year. But he didn't elevate his game, take it to a higher level (and didnt even have to do much on defense guarding Delly instead of Kyrie). Curry never reaches the heights of his regular season MVP years in the playoffs. His game consistently drops down a level or two come playoff time.
Durant was incredibly efficient last night  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/7/2018 11:16 am : link
but there's just no juice. With Curry and Klay spacing out the floor, all three of those guys are in incredibly advantageous situations. The defense is spread thin and can't throw doubles.

Durant should get a ton of credit for hitting all the shots he did, as he's among the best scorers in the history of the league. But there's no "if I have a bad game, we lose" worry.

Again, I don't blame Durant for going to Golden State. I think it made the most sense for his life. It just ruined the narrative juice and excitement as a fan of not only watching Durant, but watching the Warriors and Curry.
RE: If we are nitpicking  
nygiants16 : 6/7/2018 11:17 am : link
In comment 13985452 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.

Here is my point:

Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.

Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.

I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.


because you made a point which was clearly wrong...

you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...

the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...

you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair
and i am making a basketball point  
nygiants16 : 6/7/2018 11:18 am : link
because i am talking about the warriors scheme...
I didn't say KD  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 11:20 am : link
guarded Lebron on every possession. Now youre outright making up what i said to bolster your point.
RE: I didn't say KD  
dep026 : 6/7/2018 11:21 am : link
In comment 13985463 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
guarded Lebron on every possession. Now youre outright making up what i said to bolster your point.


But the thing is.... KD isnt guarding Lebron on many, if not most possessions like you claim.
well  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/7/2018 11:24 am : link
In comment 13985456 giantsfan44ab said:

I can totally see the argument for CUrry winning MVP that year. But he didn't elevate his game, take it to a higher level (and didnt even have to do much on defense guarding Delly instead of Kyrie). Curry never reaches the heights of his regular season MVP years in the playoffs. His game consistently drops down a level or two come playoff time. [/quote]

I think this is pretty irrelevant. If the award is for MVP of the finals, then it's for Most Valuable, however you define it (best, most irreplaceable), and not "best relative to their regular season performance). If it had to go to a Warrior, then what does it matter whether Curry was better in the Finals than he was in the regular season when he won MVP? He was still the Warrior that made that historic offense go. Also, his Finals performance was a lot better than he gets credit for. One bad shooting night has colored the perception of what he did. Outside of a terrible Game 2 performance, he shot 23/50 from 3 with Cleveland trying to chase him off the 3-point line! That is insane.

Everyone on the Cavs was hyper-aware where Curry was on the floor at all times and he spread out the Cavs defense unlike any player in NBA history. That's what the biggest impact was for the Warriors that series.
RE: RE: I didn't say KD  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 11:26 am : link
In comment 13985465 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13985463 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


guarded Lebron on every possession. Now youre outright making up what i said to bolster your point.



But the thing is.... KD isnt guarding Lebron on many, if not most possessions like you claim.


And then what is Curry doing on D then? The only reason the Cavs have a shot is because Steph Curry is atrocious as he is on that end of the floor. Steph brings it on offense 2/3 games and is picked one each game defensively.

KD has brought it on both ends, every game of the series.

Obviously they all help each other out, space the floor and keep the ball moving once they beat penetration. Stephs impact on offense is beyond his subpar numbers for sure. But KDs impact is also beyond his outrageously efficient numbers, on both ends, all the same.
RE: RE: If we are nitpicking  
TyreeHelmet : 6/7/2018 11:30 am : link
In comment 13985459 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13985452 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.

Here is my point:

Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.

Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.

I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.



because you made a point which was clearly wrong...

you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...

the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...

you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair


Yes their scheme is switch everything- except with Curry. They didn't want him switching onto Harden and now don't want him switching onto Lebron. The Cavs have just forced that action.

While that is their scheme, Durant has primarily started on Lebron. He definitely has guarded Lebron the most in this series.

While Durant helps them defensively, Curry gets attacked and hurts them. Not sure how that point can be argued.
RE: I didn't say KD  
nygiants16 : 6/7/2018 11:30 am : link
In comment 13985463 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
guarded Lebron on every possession. Now youre outright making up what i said to bolster your point.



you just said kd guarded lebron on most possessions..
Curry’s defense is not great  
dep026 : 6/7/2018 11:31 am : link
But it’s hardly atrocious. If we are going to get on him cause he can’t chrck lebron... well that doesn’t seem fair.

You make it seem like he defends like Harden. Curry gives max effort defensively.
as to this  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/7/2018 11:31 am : link
In comment 13985454 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13985449 PaulBlakeTSU said:


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Also the reason why he was so open is that Lebron guarded him, and Lebron played free safety more that series than man to man. They dared him to shoot and score.


LeBron was carrying a roster of Dellavedova, JR Smith/Shumpert, Tristan Thompson, and Timofey Mozgov in that series. No one can carry that offensive and chase a bad 3-point shooter around the perimeter.
The best chance Cleveland had to win the series on defense was for LeBron to hang back and sag off of a mediocre 3-point shooter in Iguodala so that he can play free safety make stops inside when the Warriors start running downhill due to the gravity created by Steph and Klay.

Iggy is a career 33% shooter from 3. The Cavs wanted him to be the one to shoot, instead of Curry or Klay, or instead of the Warriors getting easy lanes to slam it home.

Iggy happened to hit those open shots. I don't think it was anything special on Iguodala's part.
RE: RE: RE: If we are nitpicking  
nygiants16 : 6/7/2018 11:32 am : link
In comment 13985473 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13985459 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 13985452 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


I said "many, if not most". I didn't make a definitive state. Ny16 im not sure what your obsession with arguing about technicalities of what people said instead of actual basketball.

Here is my point:

Has Curry been a liability on defense in this series? Yes, consistently, it's the only reason why 2 of the 3 games have been close.

Has KD been a liability on defense? No, he's been tremendous both on ball or coming to Stephs help.

I don't see how Steph wins MVP. I also don't see how he's outright carried or clear cut been the best Warrior game in game out on any of the championship teams except the year they lost.



because you made a point which was clearly wrong...

you cant say kd has guarded lebron on every possession and then switxh it up and say well he is helping on lebron...

the warriors defense is switch on everything, so that mrans multiple players are guarding lebron...

you cant give credit to any one guy for guarding lebron, jusg not fair



Yes their scheme is switch everything- except with Curry. They didn't want him switching onto Harden and now don't want him switching onto Lebron. The Cavs have just forced that action.

While that is their scheme, Durant has primarily started on Lebron. He definitely has guarded Lebron the most in this series.

While Durant helps them defensively, Curry gets attacked and hurts them. Not sure how that point can be argued.


it doesnt matter who starts on le ron because no matter what they are switxhing...

cavs try to get lebron on curry or the center that is iut there...

i saw klay and draymond on lebron a lot last night as well...

Green guarded Lebron  
dep026 : 6/7/2018 11:33 am : link
primarily in the 2nd half in game 2.
No doubt Curry was the best player  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 11:34 am : link
each and every year before KD came. They don't win without Curry, even if he did skate free without going against Conley, Holiday a few games, Beverley and Kyrie that year.

Like I said I think Steph will end up top 20 all time. But the reason I can't see him passing the likes of Wade or Kobe is his lack of outright dominance in a finals series outside the loss against Cleveland. And he's still only what 29/30? So he has time to rewrite this.

He absolutely transformed the offensive game of the NBA. I just don't see him outright dominating each game the way the absolute best all time guards have in the playoffs/Finals.
RE: Curry’s defense is not great  
TyreeHelmet : 6/7/2018 11:38 am : link
In comment 13985475 dep026 said:
Quote:
But it’s hardly atrocious. If we are going to get on him cause he can’t chrck lebron... well that doesn’t seem fair.

You make it seem like he defends like Harden. Curry gives max effort defensively.


Fair point about checking Lebron, but Curry is a pretty bad defender. How did he fare when guarding Kyrie?

He gets to play alongside 4 truly great defenders and have Klay guard the best opposing guard. It's a pretty nice luxury to have.
THat's great steph gives max  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 11:38 am : link
effort when has 4 teammates who at various times were all on all defensive teams or received a large amount of votes for them.

Not arguing Harden is a better offensive or defensive player than steph at all. Im comparing him to the likes of Kobe, Wade, Isiah.
I'm rooting for Cleveland but i can't stand they way they play  
PatersonPlank : 6/7/2018 11:39 am : link
offense (or whatever they call it). Give it to Lebron, and then find a space far away from him. I much prefer the team game.
RE: No doubt Curry was the best player  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/7/2018 11:39 am : link
In comment 13985482 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
each and every year before KD came. They don't win without Curry, even if he did skate free without going against Conley, Holiday a few games, Beverley and Kyrie that year.

Like I said I think Steph will end up top 20 all time. But the reason I can't see him passing the likes of Wade or Kobe is his lack of outright dominance in a finals series outside the loss against Cleveland. And he's still only what 29/30? So he has time to rewrite this.

He absolutely transformed the offensive game of the NBA. I just don't see him outright dominating each game the way the absolute best all time guards have in the playoffs/Finals.


What does that have to do with him not deserving MVP in 2015?

Also, without getting into the details of Curry vs. Wade vs. Kobe and their Finals performances, which I have no interest in examining, none of them have the impact on a defense without the ball as Curry. No player in NBA history draws a defense as far away from the rim and opens up the floor for the rest of his teammates like Curry. Curry opens up everything within 20 feet of the rim the way LeBron/Shaq/Wilt opened everything outside of 15 feet. Just standing on the floor 25 feet out for possession creates an advantage for his other 4 teammates.
RE: I'm rooting for Cleveland but i can't stand they way they play  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/7/2018 11:47 am : link
In comment 13985489 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
offense (or whatever they call it). Give it to Lebron, and then find a space far away from him. I much prefer the team game.


Part of that is the Cavs lacking a second offensive playmaker who creates his own offense to keep the ball moving. But, yes, the Cleveland offense is primarily giving LeBron the ball, spacing out, and letting him create the mismatch, draw everyone to him, and then either score anyway, or kick it to the open man.

It's effective, but repetitive. To me, the most fun I've had watching teams play were the 2015/2016 Warriors and the 2014 Spurs, particularly in the NBA Finals.

Aesthetically, the ECavs are like an NFL team with a dominant running game that keeps pounding the rock for 4-5 yards and do it over and over again because defenses can't stop it, and so when they load up in the box, they then use play-action to find open receivers. There are many people on BBI who clamor for a return to those days. I found that style less aesthetically pleasing than teams who threw more.
Paul  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 11:50 am : link
it doesn't, Im just saying whats currently keeping Curry out of the top 10 all time for me, which some here have already placed him.
RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015  
bw in dc : 6/7/2018 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13985449 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:


One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.



You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".

Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.

And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.
RE: RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015  
nygiants16 : 6/7/2018 12:09 pm : link
In comment 13985535 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13985449 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:




One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.





You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".

Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.

And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.


in 2015 curry was not far and away the best player on the team?
RE: RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 12:15 pm : link
In comment 13985535 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13985449 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:




One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.





You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".

Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.

And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.


Don't think he was referring to this GS team, i think he was just emphasizing that Curry deserved the MVP in '15.
RE: RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/7/2018 12:22 pm : link
In comment 13985535 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13985449 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:




One poor shooting game from Curry and people lost their minds. He was still far and away the best player on the team.





You really can't be taken seriously with phrases like "far and away".

Curry is a terrific offensive player and obviously integral to the Warriors' success. But once he has to move back over half court and play defense, he's more liability than asset. He's fortunate to have four of the best defenders in the league to play off - Durant, Thompson, Iggy and Green.

And what is "far and away" clear is that Durant and Thompson are superior two way players to Curry.


What does Durant have to do with the 2015 Warriors?


There is no doubt the Warriors are loaded. They were loaded before Durant and even more so now. I point it out all the time. But pre-Durant, Curry was far and away the best player on the team. He won back-to-back league MVP awards, both overwhelmingly so, with the second being unanimous. It doesn't take anything away from the contributions and effectiveness of the other players on the team.

It takes nothing away from, say, Scottie Pippen, to say that Michael Jordan was far and away the best player on those 90s Bulls.
RE: RE: RE: it's absurd that Iguodala won MVP in 2015  
bw in dc : 6/7/2018 1:59 pm : link
In comment 13985568 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:


What does Durant have to do with the 2015 Warriors?

There is no doubt the Warriors are loaded. They were loaded before Durant and even more so now. I point it out all the time. But pre-Durant, Curry was far and away the best player on the team. He won back-to-back league MVP awards, both overwhelmingly so, with the second being unanimous. It doesn't take anything away from the contributions and effectiveness of the other players on the team.

It takes nothing away from, say, Scottie Pippen, to say that Michael Jordan was far and away the best player on those 90s Bulls.


My bad. I misread the flow of the conversation.

I'm a big Klay Thompson guy. So while Curry was great in '15, it's the same point. He still wasn't far and away the best player on that team. You can't begin to say he shouldered the defensive responsibility that Thompson did. Thompson is a better two way player.

The Jordan compare is poor one because Jordan was a 9X first team defender and won the MVP and DPOTY in '88. He could impact the game on the defensive end.

Curry does none of that. He is a one-way player; and a player who has benefited enormously by rules that make playing perimeter defense as difficult as playing corner in the NFL. So good for him for finding his niche.
I love Klay Thompson's game  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/7/2018 2:20 pm : link
but there's a reason that Curry so overwhelmingly won the MVP and All-League awards and Klay got a single point out of 1300 potential for the MVP award (Curry got 1198 points). he got all 1310 points the following season for the MVP vote.

Also, your point about the current rules for perimeter defense are also irrelevant. Those are the rules in place. I'm not comparing Curry to anyone historically, only to his teammates in the 2015 season, so all that matters are the rules in place during that season.
Curry is the greatest shooter of all time  
dep026 : 6/7/2018 2:20 pm : link
Plus he is a pretty good rebounder for a guard and a very good passer.

You saying he cant defend is just wrong. He gets nearly 2 steals a game and isnt a sieve that other superstars are.
No superstar has the level of defensive talent  
giantsfan44ab : 6/7/2018 2:44 pm : link
Curry has, maybe ever.
I thought Curry was the guy in 1-2  
KWALL2 : 6/7/2018 3:39 pm : link
Clearly Durant outplayed him in game 3.

Durant dodged an enormous bullet. He really blew game 1 and let Smith just move him under the basket to get that rebound. He would have been roasted for that weak effort at a critical moment of game 1 in the Finals.

But now, he's the MVP. He's very lucky Smith is a meathead.
RE: No superstar has the level of defensive talent  
dep026 : 6/7/2018 7:08 pm : link
In comment 13985781 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Curry has, maybe ever.


Isiah Thomas says hello. Dumars and Rodman were all time great defenders. Laimbeer wasn’t shabby either. But if you want to take elite defenders

Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper who many forget was an elite defender as well.
The defense they played against Utah is forgotten. And that’s why they were so good. They defended better than they played offense.
Right now I'd give the Finals MVP to KD  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/7/2018 7:34 pm : link
But let's see what happens from here on out. I think Cleveland wins tomorrow & GS closes it out @ the Oracle on Monday. If Step has big games in Game 5 & 6, he could easily win MVP.
I still think the MVP  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/8/2018 9:59 am : link
is LeBron. No one has provided as much independent value to the court as he has this series (and I'm not even referring to relative value to his team). But that'll never happen.
RE: I still think the MVP  
dep026 : 6/8/2018 10:06 am : link
In comment 13986373 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
is LeBron. No one has provided as much independent value to the court as he has this series (and I'm not even referring to relative value to his team). But that'll never happen.


No chance of him winning if they get swept or even if they lose in 5. I know Lebron is an all time great. But it simply cannot happen. His counting stats are nice and he has played very well, but at the end of the day its all about winning.
Has the Finals MVP ever gone to a player  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/8/2018 10:25 am : link
from the losing team? No one comes to mind.
Just looked it up...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/8/2018 10:26 am : link
The Logo, 1969 NBA Finals. The first time the MVP was awarded too actually.
Jerry West won  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/8/2018 10:31 am : link
but that was when the award was voted on BEFORE Game 7.
So in reality, the Finals MVP was never awarded to a player on a losing team.

So it's unrealistic that LeBron would win under any circumstance where the Warriors win the series. I just think that is a poor way of evaluating performance and a poor way of creating an historical marker (not as much as how baseball MVPs are voted).

I understand the reasoning of wondering how much value LeBron could provide if his team lost. But I'm not persuaded by it for two reasons.

1. On the flip side, how valuable could any Warrior be if the team would still be favored over the Cavs and expected to win even if any single one of them broke a leg the day before the series started?

2. Also, if it were game 7, and the Cavs were up 2 with 3 seconds left and Jordan Bell threw a full court heave to miraculously win the game and the championship, I don't understand how that play would somehow mean that Durant or Curry were then more valuable than LeBron.

Like all MVP awards, I think it's meant as a way to look back on the season/series and ask who the best player was-- who contributed the most independent value to help a team win.
RE: Jerry West won  
dep026 : 6/8/2018 10:34 am : link
In comment 13986399 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
but that was when the award was voted on BEFORE Game 7.
So in reality, the Finals MVP was never awarded to a player on a losing team.

So it's unrealistic that LeBron would win under any circumstance where the Warriors win the series. I just think that is a poor way of evaluating performance and a poor way of creating an historical marker (not as much as how baseball MVPs are voted).

I understand the reasoning of wondering how much value LeBron could provide if his team lost. But I'm not persuaded by it for two reasons.

1. On the flip side, how valuable could any Warrior be if the team would still be favored over the Cavs and expected to win even if any single one of them broke a leg the day before the series started?

2. Also, if it were game 7, and the Cavs were up 2 with 3 seconds left and Jordan Bell threw a full court heave to miraculously win the game and the championship, I don't understand how that play would somehow mean that Durant or Curry were then more valuable than LeBron.

Like all MVP awards, I think it's meant as a way to look back on the season/series and ask who the best player was-- who contributed the most independent value to help a team win.


I think in your last example, Lebron would win it. But in a 4-5 game series - I just dont see how.

His stat line is always going to be amazing since the offense is set up for him to have it. But look at your last line "value to help a team WIN." If you dont win a game, the value you brought was that you made games more competitive.

He should be the league MVP cause he carried his team to a good regular season record (and I am still in the belief we dont see beast Lebron until playoffs anyways.)
RE: RE: No superstar has the level of defensive talent  
bw in dc : 6/8/2018 10:38 am : link
In comment 13985982 dep026 said:
Quote:

Isiah Thomas says hello. Dumars and Rodman were all time great defenders. Laimbeer wasn’t shabby either. But if you want to take elite defenders

Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Ron Harper who many forget was an elite defender as well.
The defense they played against Utah is forgotten. And that’s why they were so good. They defended better than they played offense.


True, but Thomas and Jordan were terrific defenders. They were key parts on that side of the ball for those great teams.

Btw, you mentioned that Curry gets a lot of steals. So does James Harden. And no one in their right, drug free mind would call him a great defender. So steals can be misleading...

RE: RE: RE: No superstar has the level of defensive talent  
dep026 : 6/8/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 13986406 bw in dc said:
Quote:


Btw, you mentioned that Curry gets a lot of steals. So does James Harden. And no one in their right, drug free mind would call him a great defender. So steals can be misleading...


Curry tries on defense, so him getting steals is probably a result of hustle. Harden reaches and goes for passes. H
RE: I love Klay Thompson's game  
bw in dc : 6/8/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 13985744 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:


Also, your point about the current rules for perimeter defense are also irrelevant. Those are the rules in place. I'm not comparing Curry to anyone historically, only to his teammates in the 2015 season, so all that matters are the rules in place during that season.


But the rule distorts the game. So I think it's important to assess situation through that lens.

Sure, I give credit to Curry for a great season. But it's always natural to wonder how a guy who isn't big, isn't physically imposing, etc can thrive to the point where he gets ultimate success in a league where bigger, stronger, faster usually rules. You don't find that curious?
I think  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/8/2018 10:47 am : link
championships are team awards. I think MVPs are individual awards. Players only have so much control over who they play with and individual honors should be about their individual contributions. If a player is on a bad team, it penalizes them twice in that they don't win team trophies because of their cast, and now they are shut out from individual awards because of their cast.

Baseball is the dumbest because players have far less impact on a team than in NBA or in the NFL.


re Curry's defense  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/8/2018 10:49 am : link
he is not a good isolation defensive player because of his size. But he plays well enough in the Warriors defensive system. He reads passing lanes well and gets to spots well.

The best strategy for opponents is to try and isolate him into one-on-one basketball, but that's easier said than done. Guys like Kyrie and Isiah Thomas are fare bigger liabilities and one-dimensional players than Curry.
RE: I think  
dep026 : 6/8/2018 10:54 am : link
In comment 13986411 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
Players only have so much control over who they play with and individual honors should be about their individual contributions.


Lebron has full control, hence I dont feel bad when people claim he doesnt have enough. He chooses the team he wants, the players he wants, and tells management who to trade/trade for.

He basically called out management to sign JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. He basically said Thomas was not wanted.

Now Kyrie is different because it generally seemed to catch Lebron off guard, but we dont know what happened behind the scene.
RE: RE: I think  
giantsfan44ab : 6/8/2018 11:04 am : link
In comment 13986420 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13986411 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:


Players only have so much control over who they play with and individual honors should be about their individual contributions.




Lebron has full control, hence I dont feel bad when people claim he doesnt have enough. He chooses the team he wants, the players he wants, and tells management who to trade/trade for.

He basically called out management to sign JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. He basically said Thomas was not wanted.

Now Kyrie is different because it generally seemed to catch Lebron off guard, but we dont know what happened behind the scene.


Agree with your points on MVP/Finals MVP.

But judging Lebron as a basketball player I ignore what he does in terms of getting teammates. I don't think Lebron the "GM" should be factored in when analyzing Lebron the player. Like I don't consider Isiah Thomas as an exec weighs down on his playing career. I guess prime example would be Vlade Divac lol.

All I've learned is that no basketball player can win with a crappy team. Especially against the greatest team probably (likely) ever. Shit, Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs when his teammates were that bad.
RE: RE: RE: I think  
dep026 : 6/8/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13986435 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:

But judging Lebron as a basketball player I ignore what he does in terms of getting teammates. I don't think Lebron the "GM" should be factored in when analyzing Lebron the player. Like I don't consider Isiah Thomas as an exec weighs down on his playing career. I guess prime example would be Vlade Divac lol.

All I've learned is that no basketball player can win with a crappy team. Especially against the greatest team probably (likely) ever. Shit, Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs when his teammates were that bad.


I can separate Lebron the player from GM very easily. My point is I dont feel sorry for Lebron when hedoesnt win cause his teammatesarent good enough - because he is the one who is choosing who to play. And him losing continuously in the finals only hurts the GOAT arguemnt - not where he ranks compared to any other player not named Jordan. He is number 2 on my list and probably will stay there for a very long time.

The one good thing Krause and Reinsdorf did was manage the Bulls with very limited input from the players. Phil Jackson said out of the 7 PFs on their list to come to the team when Jordan came back, Rodman was last. But when they went to him management went to MJ and Pippen for approval, and they agreed. But he wasnt their first choice.
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